The shame game

"demeaning both to the perpetrator and to passers-by who rejoice in her humiliation."

Yes.  I agree Reg.  I just happened to read that story.  Your comment quoted above hits the nail on the head.  In the same way that low wages at Wal-Mart (the scene of the crime, how perfect) demean all of us who shop there, and except for the tiny elite at the top, all of those who work there.

This story is a parable and a microcosm of all that is wrong with our world.  Darwinist economics, right wing politics and fundamentalist religion.  Ugly americanism at its worst.

Yes, my friends went to the lecture and said it was basically an infomercial for Wolfe's new book.  Um, ditto comments above minus Wal-mart?

It seems from the story that the woman chose this as a plea bargain in lieu of time in the slammer. That being the case, one or two less guests of the state seems okay to me.

I did not attend the Tom Wolfe lecture. I always seem to confuse him with Thomas Wolfe, author of Look Homeward Angel, a novel that I read cover to cover with no understanding whatsoever. That Mr. Wolfe is perhaps a bit more noteworthy and far less alive. I hope he has found a room of his own in the afterlife.

Yinzer, I don't do much shopping at wal mart mostly because I don't do much shopping anywhere, but how much should wal mart pay for whatever it is their employees do? They are non union and I suppose don't pay high wages or offer great benefits, but niether do their competitors, because the market doesn't support it. Not every job is worth high compensation, some jobes are entry level, and pay accordingly.

Is anybody getting rich working at K-Mart, or Target? Is wal-Mart paying significantly less?

Reg, your wife nailed it.  Tom Wolfe did indeed stink.  And he stunk for what seemed like a very long time.  Frequently, it seems, great authors are lousy speakers.  He was very charming during the book signing, one-on-one.  That must help him in his research at South Beach strip clubs.

Mugs, you are right, for the exploited masses of capitalism run amok one crappy low paying job with no security and no benefits is much the same as any other.    

So, if you were named CEO of Wal-Mart tomorrow, what would you pay your employees, and what benefits would you provide to them, to insure that they are not exploited?

I guess I agree with you on this extreme use of pillory-style punishment, but I do like how in smaller communities the local papers usually publish the names of those found guilty of minor crimes-just a list of their names and their crimes. Some embarrassment can be a good deterrent.  

Not to question anyone's judgment or taste, but why waste time on Wolfe?  He has been an endless self-promoter who really hasn't done much since his Haight-Ashbury studies, except adopt trademarks like the white suit and other means of attention-getting.  This will make you a darling in NY, but not a great writer.

Mugsy--it would be a level playing field if Walmart didn't pay so little that some stores actually give instructional lectures to new employees on how to apply for Medicaid and FS, as they make so little that many are eligible for these programs.  Those low prices you get under the Big W--you're paying them out in taxes to subsidize the business. In other words,  WalMart is currently a government-supported enterprize.

Wow, Regis, I didn't know Wal-mart was doing that. When liberal agencies try to help the poor get services or money conservatives rant and rave. Now our largest retailer is using our tax dollars to supplement their employment practices!? I'm sure that's OK. They are very big and successful.  

Yinz,

I can assure you that there is not one employee of Wal-Mart who wants or needs your pity.  What they want, need and have is a job.  That Yinz, is when you supply your service or labor in return for wages.  It's an equal exchange.  I realize that's a foreign concept to you.  Some people call it "work".

I agree that the penalty described was inappropriate (though not unusual punishment, by seventeenth century norms), particularly since this woman was not tried and convicted in a court.

That said, however, it appears that "shame" is an emotion lost on most of us. This lady was small potatoes, however. I really wouldn't mind seeing some of Wall Street's Masters of the Universe in sackcloth and ashes, although I believe that they would see themselves as the aggrieved.

Regarding the election, I think that I'll have a siezure if any judge is ever NOT returned to the bench. (I was so hoping this would be Jeffy Manning's comeuppance.)

As to Tom Wolfe, was he at least dapper?

The argument that tax money is subsidizing wal-marts payroll is specious at best. No employer is required to pay anything more than minimum wage, if the people who work at wal-mart are eligable for government programs such as food stamps or medicaid then they are eligable. That is not the government subsidizing an obligation that wal-mart has; there is no such obligation.

Compensation for employment is governed by supply and demand. If you have a needed skill that is in short supply, you can expect better compensation for it than for jobs that require less er or more easily obtained skills. If the job at wal-mart isn't enough to support you and/or your family, then the answer is not for the government to legislate an even higher wage for you, the answer is to obtain skills that are in higher demand. We can legislate any amount of compensation that you wish, but we will not be raising the living standard of those who receive the wage, we will simply be pushing the bar of what constitutes low wages to a different level. Wal-mart and anybody else can raise their wages and pay great benefits tomorrow, but the costs of these things will have to be reflected in either the cost of their products or the number of employees they have.There's no free lunch here; the market will have to support the costs in one way or another.

The question of wether or not every job should pay enough to support a person is philosophical. The question of wether or not any economic system can provide this type of climate in a sustainable fashion is more substantative, and I believe no such system exists or is possable on any significant scale.

Kevin,

"Wow, Regis, I didn't know Wal-mart was doing that."

Really?  Regis said so, ergo, it's true.  Isn't that the way it works?  Regis has a lot of time to say things since he no longer works for Bernie Madoff.

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - California paid an estimated $86 million in pubic assistance in 2001 because workers at Wal-Mart Stores Inc. earn such low wages, researchers said on Tuesday.

"Wal-Mart workers' reliance on public assistance due to substandard wages and benefits has become a form of indirect public subsidy to the company," said the report issued by the University of California, Berkeley Labor Center.

"Reliance by Wal-Mart workers on public assistance programs in California comes at a cost to the taxpayers of an estimated $86 million annually; this is comprised of $32 million in health related expenses and $54 million in other assistance."

The report said many of Wal-Mart's 44,000 California employees in 2001 relied on food stamps, Medicare and subsidized housing to make ends meet and also need more public health care than typical retail workers.

Report co-author Ken Jacobs said he obtained data on Wal-Mart wages from a lawsuit that revealed information for 2001. The study said that 54 percent of Wal-Mart workers earned less than $9 an hour in 2001, 21 percent made from $9 to $9.99, and 16 percent from $10 to $10.99.

According to a recent report from the Associated Press, Wal-Mart CEO Lee Scott earned $29.7 million in total compensation last year, more than any other CEO in the Southeastern U.S. According to their official figures, full time Wal-Mart associates make, on average, $10.84 per hour, or about $19,000 a year (Wal-Mart considers 34 hours a week to be full time). Thus, Lee Scott earned 1,551 times the average Wal-Mart employee in 2007.

Are these wage disparities just a simple economic consequence, completely free of political or social considerations and akin to the sun rising in the east and setting in the west?   I don' t believe any of us are really that naive.

Thank you, Yinzer.

So, as I said, those low prices are made possible by low wages and benefits, made possible by our tax money, in the form of medical assistance and food stamps.  We're paying the price differential by our taxes.

My pleasure, Regis :)

Mugsy, while it is true that some jobs will naturally pay more than others, and I agree that on the whole it is desirable that disparity exists, there are choices that modern economies can make about how these disparities will be handled and how great they should be.

For example, a recent study by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) of its member nations found that in the United States the richest 10 percent earn an average of $93,000—the highest level in the OECD. The poorest 10 percent earn an average of $5,800—about 20 percent lower than the OECD average.

Because the gap between the wealthiest and poorest is larger in the United States than in 30 other developed nations, our ability to improve our economic status is less than that of the United Kingdom. Stated another way: If you’re born in this nation, you have less chance of upward mobility than in England, our stereotyped epitome of the immobile, class-based society.  

I guess its just up to you what you want and expect from your country in terms of economic justice or the lack of it.

(Sources: www.msnbc.msn.com/.../27295405)

$10.84 per hour.  That's bad.

$70.00 per hour.  That's good.

$86 Million in public assistance.  That's bad.

$57 Billion for auto bailout..  That's good.

Public assistance is our money.  That's bad.

Bailout money is Obama stash.  That's good.

Sun rises in the west.  That's good.

Sun rises in the east.  That's bad.

Titan, re: "I can assure you that there is not one employee of Wal-Mart who wants or needs your pity."

I've only known two people who worked for Wal-mart, and they both b$#$#ed and whined about it a lot. I would have to say they did want my pity, why else would they behave that way?

Associated Press Release 11/4/09:  President Obama announced that after having a roundtable discussion with economic experts, SEIU, Regis and Yinzerati, he has signed an “executive order” requiring Wal-Mart to increase the hourly income of it’s employees to $44.00 per hour.  The President cited the need to eliminate the $86 Million in public entitlements given to Wal-Mart employees and to allow them to enjoy the opportunity to advance in their employment journey like their brothers and sisters in England.

Associated Press Release 11/5/09:  Lee Scott, President of Wal-Mart announced that all employees will not receive an increase in their hourly rate to $44.00 as demanded by President Obama.  Instead the hourly rate will be increased to $440.00 per hour.  He also noted that every store will close and all 1.5 million employees will lose their $440.00 per hour job.

Associated Press Release 11/6/09:  President Obama announced Sarah Palin had infiltrated the White House, forged a fake “executive order”, wore a suit & tie to impersonate him and lied to the American public.  To insure the safety of the American people, Obama announced he will have no option but to keep Gitmo open to house Palin until her execution.

Associated Press Release 11/7/09:  Lee Scott presents a “Smiley Face” sticker to President Obama, who some say accidently placed it over his SEIU lapel pin.  Wal-Mart reopens all stores.

Associated Press Release 11/8/09:  President Obama declares the recession over. As proof, he shows that 1.5 million new jobs had been created the previous day as a result of the Stimulus Bill.

That wasn't a clean kill on Titan.  Instead, the facts have merely wounded him, causing him to run in circles spouting lame attempts at satire.  We're sorry, Titan.

I initially agreed with Reg, until I read some the details of the crime:  

"Ms. Border, 56, said she found the gift cards on a box at the store in April. One was for $50, the other for $30. She said her first impulse was to turn them in.

But prosecutors said the two used the cards to purchase items and told a store clerk, who had been alerted to the lost cards, that the cards were theirs."

...

""I've never, ever been in trouble," she said. "This is very sad. But what about the thousands and thousands of things that [other] people have done? What about the people who molest children? What about the people with DUIs? I'm embarrassed. But everyone in Bedford County knows what kind of person I am."

Both women said they had learned from their mistake.

"I won't pick up nothing, not even a penny," said Ms. Border. "They used to have the old saying 'finders keepers.' That doesn't go anymore."

-- Finders keepers when you're 8, maybe.  

To the point of the nature of the punishment:  this type of punishment isn't an industry, like private prisons.  Not much chance of judges railroading defendants to a prison from which they get kickbacks.  

I always marvel at the Libs.  They have half the solution for every problem.  Never seem to address the consquences of the actions they propose.  Let's pay everyone a good wage no matter what they do.  How can you argue agaist that? You can't. Now lets look at the consequences of being so understand and kind.  What will the cost of dinner be when you go to the a resturant if the busboy makes $45,000 a year, that is barely a living wage.  The waitress makes $50,000 a year. The cook makes $52,000 a year.  Now I didn't add in the benefits to those business costs.

Before you attack the salaries I used above, just tell me what should a busboy make a year?  Dollar amount please, use numbers only, no words. I understand you "feel" it should be a living wage, what is that ? From there figure out what affect that has on your dinner bill.  Of course you can say you won't go to dinner at that amount, but now they are making nothing because the place closed and they lost their jobs.

My Opinion I asked way back in this discussion what people, if they became CEO of Wal-mart, would pay their employees and what benefits they would provide to ensure they are not "exploited" by their employment. Nobody answered, which was dissapointing, because I was hoping that they would speak directly to a dollar amount and how they proposed to come up with the money. Private business has to find funds to support what they do, they can't simply print the money or continue to borrow it, like their public counterparts.

Yinzer points out the "disparity" in Wal-marts pay scale, noting that the CEO made about 30 million. There are 1.2 million Wal-mart employees *, so if we can just get the CEO to work for free, they will all get about 25 dollars more, per year. The problem isn't the disparity between workers wages and CEO's wages, the problem is that certain jobs just aren't capable of earning higher pay in the market.

* www.pbs.org/.../stats.html

Myopinion, if the busboy is an adult working full time he/she should start at at least $20-22K with bennies. Waitresses usually make plenty per hour on tips but lack benefits-but that could be solved if there was  a way to combine part-time jobs and have employers share the costs.

48% of workers get no paid sick pay, many get no paid vacation. We have argued over how many have no health care, but it's too many.

Did you really think anyone would just give you a number?:)

Kevin No I didn't think anyone would just give me a number. What I asked for was just a number for the salary. Libs have a tendency to give a lecture when asked for a specific number  After you gave me your number you must have been  in such a hurry to provide me additional information you forgot the the second half of my question, that is what affect will those salaries have on the price of your dinner?  Will the price be so high that you and others will not be able to afford to go there and it has to close therefore those folks are making nothing?

If the busboy is an adult ( what about if he/she is a student in high school or college, any change in amount?) and makes $21,000 a year, what should the more skilled waitress make, what should the more skilled cook make?  But most importantly WHAT AFFECT WILL THOSE SALARIES HAVE ON THE COST YOU WILL PAY FOR DINNER? This is the real question I was asking since in my previous post I said Lib have half of all solutions. What about the other half, affect on customers/business?