Morning links: All that feedback

In the midst of last evenings chaos and this new important thread today, a baseball question that I asked last night has not received a response or opinion from anyone.

I'll mention it again.....Coby Clemens, son of the Rocket, is available in the Rule 5 draft from what I read the other night.  He is a catcher and raked in High A ball last season.....

Question:  Is it true he's available and if so, should we nab him at #2 in this draft?

Sorry if this is not the right time to ask.

LLOYD

Good Sunday inmates near and far.

DK, thank You for your response to my last post on the previous thread.

DMAC, Thanks for "thinking of me" on that Pens/Rangers score HA HA

Lloyd: To attempt an answer to your question; No, I don't think the Bucs should take the Rocket's son. If he's that good, and the Astros are very weak at catcher, why is he available. Yes, I know, he is a few years away, but if the Astros don't fix their MLB catching situation in the next 2 years, it would seem he has a clear path to Minute Maid Park.

I had the pleasure of meeting Nellie King and his family a few years ago. Very nice folks. Seeing his name reminded me of another Pittsburgh family I met around the same time.

If it were not for a long climb up a hill for David Miller of Mount Washington there'd likely be no Duquesne Incline. I was lucky to have the opportunity to hear the full story from his wife Ruth and Mr. Miller. I'm not finding anything that tells the story but here is a Post Gazette story on them from 2004.

www.post-gazette.com/.../321243-53.stm

As I remember them telling it, one day Mr. Miller returned home late from work sweating and flushed, Mrs. Miller asked where he had been and he told her the Incline had been shut down and soon a movement was underway. So the next time you see it on TV, remember that if David Miller drove to work we'd see twice as much footage of somebody putting french fries on a sandwich and Al Michaels would have no reason to say 'funicular'.

Dejan-I couldn't see your favorite sign on the gingerbread(stadium).That in and of itself made me chortle to myself as I thought of how many times (THAT sign which will remain nameless)I've had mention of the sign.

Lloyd -

On Coby...probably not, because if he was taken in the Rule 5, he'd have to be on the MLB roster the whole year.

Since is has really only shown he can perform well up to high A, that's too much of a jump to place him on the MLB roster and expect him to pinch hit.

If he doesn't play at all, it's really going to be a wasted year for him and probably kill his career at his age. His only hope of becoming a major leaguer is to play at AA in 2010 and hope to advance to AAA by 2011 or 12.

Whereas pitchers can be hidden in the bullpen and work on their mechanics and control without performing in games, it's much harder to do that as a hitter and still have them move forward.

Allow me to make some predictions on today's hot stove article...

==============

• Do not expect any multiyear extensions this offseason. That includes Zach Duke...

- I expect that during or after 2010, Zach Duke will be considered our 5th best starter. That's not to say he won't pitch well. But if that's the case, he probably will be traded, either at the deadline in 2010 or during the off-season.

The 5th starter on the Pirates will always be someone proving himself as a young player, and paying 8M+ to the 5th starter (the minimum Duke would get in 2012) is akin to paying $5M+ to a middle reliever. They won't do it, even if Duke is pitching well. They will need that spot to audition the next crop.

----------------------

• If Daniel McCutchen does not beat out Kevin Hart...

- I'll put money on DanMac starting the season at AAA and Hart being in the rotation. Hart's arm would have to fall off or be completely out of control in spring training for him not to be the 5th starter in April 2010. The reason? Service time. DanMac pitched in September which tells me that he is actually not the first on the list to be called up in mid May or June 2010 - Lincoln is.

-----------------

• If the Pirates get their wish and Jeff Clement becomes their everyday first baseman...

- Let me put money on Clement being the everyday 1B heading north. Once again, Clement's knee would have to fall off and/or he would have to hit .000080 in spring training to not get the job (unless there's a miracle and Ankiel is signed). If he's going to be an answer, he'd better step up in April and May, because there are going to be plenty of options starting in June when Tabata can be brought up.

That said, I would expect at the slightest hint of a slump mid season that Clement will be sent down to Indy and Tabata brought up. Clement might only be down in Indy for a few weeks, but that will be enough to see what there is in Tabata and decide on a further roster move to bring Clement back up if warranted. This will have the benefit of briefly stopping Clement's service time clock to ensure he does not reach Super 2 status.

Clement has 150 days of service time, which pretty much guarantees that he will be a Super 2 if he plays straight through. Lincecum had 148 days going into 2008, and his pending arbitration case is exactly why the Pirates would want to avoid that situation after 2011.

================

Now, before people start crying foul and cheap with the Super 2 avoidance, let me say why I think it's a very good idea to avoid Super 2 situations.

This enables the Pirates to evaluate a player for a longer time before deciding whether and how much they value this player for the long haul. The only way the Pirates can realistically retain a valuable player beyond their 6+ years and into free agency is to buy out their initial free agency year(s) in a multi-year contract.

Having an extra cheap year to bargain with is a huge deal. Let's say that 2 years from now, the Pirates want to lock up Andrew McCutchen into his free agency years. He will have 2 years and 100 some days of service time, meaning he will have 1 year left where he will be seriously under value and then 3 years of arbitration. The Pirates can offer 6 years, and spread the high cost of his 2 free agent years over the length of the contract, the first of which would normally be very low.

And, since they'd be paying more up front, they might actually get a discount on that money as well.

They could also try a longer contract still if they want to go ahead and take the plunge after next year. Maybe they offer 9 or 10 years, and spread 3 or 4 years of high priced free agency years over the initial cheap years.

Of course, the earlier you commit, the more risk involved and the more years you are likely to get at the end. But these are options that are left open to the Pirates if they avoid the Super 2 status. If the player hits Super 2 status, then the leverage is seriously eroded.

                  Hear Ye Hear Ye Hear Ye

                  Gathering  Announcement

                    December 5 Noon Time

 The Double Wide Grille 2339 East Carson Street

                          Special Guest

                            Lou DePaoli

Executive Vice President and Director Of Media Marketing

                     Pittsburgh Pirates

Another limited space location RSVP seat required

           RSVP to  tjfran@comcast.net

                Accepting emailed question

One night bck in the late seventies I had the pleasure of listening to Nellie Kink speak to about thirty people for and hour and a half.

I love Steve Blass and Bob Walk, but there is not a human being alive who can bring to life the Pittsburgh Pirates like Nellie King, he is defined as story telling royalty.

I can not wait to get his book.

If you even like the Pittsburgh Pirates a little bit, not having read a word, I tell you get this book.

To hear live Nellie speak about Roberto is putting every kid in a penny candy story for free.

To hear Nellie live speak about Roberto is like being a kid and allowed to sit and play with a toy train set uninterrupted for as long as you wish.

To hear Nellie King speak live about Roberto is knowing there really is a Sante Clause.

He will do the same thing for you with Bob Prince as he did for me.

I will forever be grateful to Bill Shay for putting Joe Racquetteball in that room that night.

God bless you Nellie, you arte the undisputed King Pittsburgh Pirate story telling.

THE OFFICIALLY UNOFFICIAL PBC BLOGS AND MLB LINKS:

MVN--The most dubious distinctions and unwanted records in sport

mvn.com/.../the-most-dubious-distinctions-and-unwanted-records-in-sport.html

MVN--Fast Forward: MLB 2011 Free Agent Class Is Loaded

mvn.com/.../fast-forward-mlb-2011-free-agent-class-is-loaded.html

Bucs Dugout-Brewers Facing Tough Times Ahead

www.bucsdugout.com/.../brewers-facing-tough-times-ahead

Sandlot Swashbucklers-Machi Saves #13, Hernandez Saves #12

mvn.com/.../machi-saves-13-hernandez-saves-12.html

Raise the Jolly Roger--Free Agent Frenzy

raisethejollyroger.com/.../free-agent-frenzy

The Green Weenie--#15 Neil Walker

oldbucs.blogspot.com/.../15-neil-walker.html

MLB transactions--nothing new since Thanksgiving

www.cbssports.com/.../transactions

Bucco Fans Wiki-Roster Info

buccofans.wikispaces.com

The "Mc" effect--Bringing Gonzo Back?

www.mceffect.com/.../bringing-gonzo-back.html

Pirate Winter League Stats

mlb.mlb.com/.../org.jsp

VOTE:This Year in Baseball Awards

mlb.mlb.com/.../index.jsp

Surprised to see that the Detroit Lions are not on the list of the worst sports franchises.

Did Tampa Bay win the Super Bowl in 2003?  How quickly they forget.

And check out how skinny Barry Bonds is the picture on that page.

I'd much rather they quit jerking the natural around and let him play first.  Sure, a statue could play right at PNC, (and has, in the past), but Jones is much better at first than right.

He's proven over half a season that he can get it done in the majors full time.  Clement has proven that he can't get it done in the majors, and on a better team than the Pirates.  I thought we weren't going to be giving away any jobs any more?

And if Hart starts the season in the Pirates rotation and does well, I'll be most pleasantly surprised.  He showed nothing in his time as a starter last year.  Again, no more handing out of jobs except on merit.

Thanks to JAL's link, I've now been horrified to find out that Virgil Vasquez has just signed a minor league deal with the Pirates.

Please, no more Virgil!

My question on the rule 5 pickup is what position?  I just assume based on NH history it will be a pitcher.  As of right now I see the bulpen as follows:

Capps

Meek

Hanrahan

Jackson

Jakubauskas

Insert a rule 5 in there and that leaves one more spot open for a lefty.  I strongly feel we need two quality lefties in the pen so unless someone else is going bye-bye (Jackson),  I say scrap the rule 5 this year.

@ DK: I didn't mean to break your heart yesterday - I saw the video from the piece you did - I was using that as an example. I probably could have been more clear in my writing...

Jose

You never know who they might be taking a look at for the rule five draft.

Remember this, you do not have to keep him.

NY FAN,  I see your point and agree about our needs, but I say pick a guy and give him back if he is not aa sleek as meek or as real as veal.

Hello All,

I am one who has been on the outside due to the things that DK mentioned in his article this morning, But I would like to thank JAL for posting links all off season.  I do look in every day at the links and feed my Pirate obsession with the information contained in the links.

Thanks, JAL, for making my off season more convenient.

As for Clement, met and talked to him in Peoria, AZ at spring training 3 springs ago.  Great kid, head on straight (note that he signs autographs with the T in Clement that looks like a cross - it is intended to be, because he is a Christian).  I, for one, and pulling for him for him to become a mainstay on the team.

What does the St. Petersburg paper know?

As soon as CLEment gets in the line up and Kevin Hart gets on the mound, the streak will end.

Neal didn't break up the '27 Yankees.

Hola,

Happy Thanksgiving Sunday...what a great 4 day weekend.

Just wanted to remind everyone....

...126 DAYS UNTIL THE PNC PARK HOME OPENER  v. the hated Dodgers!!!

@ Demery: Neal did not break up the '27 Yankees, but he probably would have at least tried...

In all seriousness, I have to ask why the PBC thinks Clement will succeed where Pearce has failed. I agree that Clement seems to have hit more consistently in AAA, but we are a long ways from knowing if he is the answer.

Further, if Clement is the front-runner at 1B, what will they do with/about Pearce?

Jose

Lofgren wil b e the rue 5 pick.Jeff clements out of options he coud hit .ooo and he will make the team consider him this years brandon moss

with neil making coments about duke his bags are packed already

Jose, are you honestly serious with your question will clement succeed where pearce did not ?  They are human beings, no two alike.

I would love to get that explanation.

"80 days until pitchers and catchers report."  Nice 's story but that's the best part!

EVERYONE'S an optimist as Spring Training approaches!

Florida spring air even SMELLS good.

@ JJ: What are you asking me exactly?

I will try again:

It is obvious that they are two different people, both with very similar batting averages at AAA.  From what has been written, it seems the PBC is going to give Clement a long look at 1B this season.

I am wondering where they see the upgrade.

I am also wondering what will become of Pearce.

Jose

If I'm Duke, I'm praying for the trade deadline. Just think of all the prospects we can get for him.

Think fourth outfielder, injured 1st baseman, and a young starting pitcher with a downward plane who we have control for six years.

I'm sure Jeff CLEment is a great guy, but I don't want to see him at 1B. Why? Well, not only do I Luuuuuuuuuuuv the Legend, but everytime I hear Jeff's 'new' last name CLEment, I will think of Jed Clampett and his CEment pond.

Just like I refuse to call Figgins 'Shawn' (it's spelled Chone, as in 'chose' with an 'n', so that's how I pronounce it), I will call Jeff Cluhment if he makes the team.

Its a personal thing. :=]

Jose, the reason CLEment will get the job is because Neal aquired him. If Pearce hits .400, Neal will say he has to work on his bunting like they did with Cutch last year.

There are only a few players left from the previous regime. 62-99 speaks for itself.

I think Jeff Twain has a nice ring to it.

" both with very similar batting averages at AAA.  From what has been written, it seems the PBC is going to give Clement a long look at 1B this season.

I am wondering where they see the upgrade"

I think that's what they want to find out about Clement which is why he would be given an opportunity.  Maybe Pearce just doesn't have the mental toughness to make it in the majors.  Maybe Clement does.  I wouldn't assume that because their numbers are similar in the minors that it means Clement wouldn't be a big upgrade.  Or Clement could flop.

I would think that there are successful MLB pitchers that had similar AAA numbers to John van Benschoten, for example.

Please help me, I can't stop writing CLEment.

"Jose, the reason CLEment will get the job is because Neal aquired him. "

Didn't Neal acquire Karstens?

I agree that 1B is the best position for Jones. I think that as the pieces of the puzzle emerge, then the FO should let them play (and develop) in their best position.

Moving people around constantly just exacerbates the problem. We have a hole at 1B and one in RF. Moving Jones to RF (and at this point we still cannot say that Jones is an "established" player) still leaves a gap at 1B. Jones is only one player, after all.

With two unproven - or at least one unproven and one working on proving they are not the answer - guys like Pearce/CLEment, my approach would be to lose at least one of them if only to keep one as a backup. Whatever you say about Moss, his defense was better than Jones or Young and his bat better than Pearce. Play him in RF until Tabata shows he is ready.

It is this lack of focus by the FO and this ongoing moving folks to fill holes that they cannot fill that is going to be a long-term detriment to the development of the younger players.

Jose

""On Coby...probably not, because if he was taken in the Rule 5, he'd have to be on the MLB roster the whole year.""

See, Mark, I'm not exactly sure how the minor league phase of the Rule 5 draft works. How many levels a player needs to jump, to be chosen in the AAA or AA portion.

I know we took a couple of pitchers last year in the AAA phase - Rafael Quintero and Gerardo Esparza - and to my knowledge, we retained both of them, while they pitched in the GCL, this last season.

So, it's possible that Koby Clemens could be selected in the minor leage phase of the draft. Although, this is what the Astros.com site said about him:

"Critics will say Clemens isn't a prospect, that prior to this season, he'd done nothing of note offensively, that his 2009 season was a product of one of the most extreme hitter's parks in Minor League baseball."

Just like to say that in the list of "Ten Worst Franchises in Sports".... I am a proud fan - well, loyal fan - of the #1 and #10 teams.  lol.

Hey it's almost gotta pay off at some point, right?

Karstens is due a raise. That does not go over wery well in these parts.

"It is this lack of focus by the FO and this ongoing moving folks to fill holes that they cannot fill that is going to be a long-term detriment to the development of the younger players."

What do you suggest right now?

It's OK Demery. A billion years ago I had to learn that it was really Tony DorSETT, not Dorsett. I feel your pain.

@ 21. That is my point. If Pearce is not the answer, why is he still on the 40-man?

Jose

"Karstens is due a raise. That does not go over wery well in these parts."

Then why didn't they just hand the second base job to Young.

@UncleSalty: I once had a debate over the virtues of Tim Couch vs. Kordell Stewart. The Browns fan and Tim Couch supporter claimed that, in 20 years, Mr. Couch would be on his way to the Hall of Fame and Mr. Stewart would be waiting tables.

I'd like to think that on my next trip to Canton, if my Grand Slam is served correctly, in a timely manner and the booth and silverware are clean, I'll tip them both.

"@ 21. That is my point. If Pearce is not the answer, why is he still on the 40-man?"

Doesn't the season start in April?  Do you think the 40 man roster as it is right now won't change from now until the opener?

@ 21: No offense - you may have missed the post above - I suggest Jones at 1B and Moss in RF until a better choice emerges in RF.

That said, I think Jones needs to show he can produce over the course of an entire season.

Jose

Because Young stinks.

"That said, I think Jones needs to show he can produce over the course of an entire season."

Agreed.

If Jones is put at first and continues to succeed then I don't see where Clement is going to fit in on this team other than a backup.  I also feel we should not underestimate having a good defensive 1st baseman.  Alot of those special plays we saw Jack, Freddy, and Andy make the last few years had Adam doing a nice job finishing it off on the other end.

My off season transaction would be Nick Johnson for 2 years plus an option.  Good defense, on base machine, and can hit with man on base.  The only concern with him is health.  This way it eliminates a question mark completely from one position.  Let Jones, Moss, Tabata, etc.  battle it out for RF and let the cream rise to the top.

@ 21: April??!!! The Season starts in April!!!???

Mein Got! why does no one keep me informed of these things???

Uh, no offense man, but if Pearce is not part of the Plan as CLEment seems to be, and the Rule Five draft is coming up, then why keep Pearce on the 40 man when you could move him off of it now and protect another prospect from the Rule Five?

I hope your Labor Day weekend was enjoyable,

Jose

"Uh, no offense man, but if Pearce is not part of the Plan as CLEment seems to be, and the Rule Five draft is coming up, then why keep Pearce on the 40 man when you could move him off of it now and protect another prospect from the Rule Five?"

I think you're jumping to conclusions.  Why make a decision on the 40 man roster right now when you don't have to?  Maybe we make a trade.  Who knows.   The Rule 5 draft is December 10.  Let's revisit the 40 man roster at that point.

Demery,

You seem to have an answer for everything.  What came first, the chicken or the egg?

@ 21: Because I believe the roster had to be set at a certain point which has already passed and cannot be changed now. So we could lose a prospect(s) because the PBC chose to protect Pearce & Bixler.

That's why. No conclusion jumping here. The ceilings in the bunker are too low.

Jose

Well kids, the sun is out and chores are awaiting.

Have fun, play nice, don't talk with your mouths full and never walk across the kitchen floor with your muddy shoes on...

Jose

I think CLEment starts over Pearce because they have seen enough of Pearce....no matter who acquired or drafted him.

I was a bit surprised at Karstens being cut, but some of us need to remember that he didn't exactly get votes for the Cy Young award this year.

Speaking of Kordell Stewart, he was a sideline reporter during the UFL Championship game on friday or saturday. That's a pretty long way from Canton.  

( I feel like I just wrote one of those 'random thoughts from a loose leaf notebook columns)

"What came first, the chicken or the egg?"

The CHEE-kin

they will release ascanio if they release some one he is 5 ft 11 too short for this team

how do you get an avatar because i went ot the page and tried to dled a picture off my computer in jpeg and it did not work

Jose,

Teams have until December 8th to clear a roster spot for the Rule 5 draft.  I also believe that you can clear roster spots for free agent signings and trades.

Here is a wild and random thought, What if after two years of recovery Clement's knee is healthy enough to allow him to catch again and Doumit is the one with no chair when the music stops?

Morning mates, good tidings.

Its good to see that its as sunny and brignt in here today as it is outside.

The comment on Rule 5 pickup was expected and as DK notes its the no 2 pick.

The comment on no multiyear deals was interesting, I still think Duke may be traded, maybe Capps too, we only have 2 years of control over both, right?  And both will be in the 3-4 million dollar range, salary wise.

Josh - Just a guess, but after you choose pic, you have to

1) hit upgrade, and wait for it to say Done at bottom left...then...

2) go to bottom of page and hit SAVE.  

Many people on their first attempt, including me, forget to hit SAVE after hitting UPDATE.

Early favorite would be a Clement - Pierce platoon at first base.  Pierce has great splits vs left hand pitching.

All has to wash out in the spring though...

I think they should wait before they give Duke a long term deal.  He had a great year in 09, but I would like to see him do it again. Lets hope they learned their lesson with Snell.  And a lot of people, maybe even me, were floating the idea of  a long term deal for Gorzo after his one really good year.

B Joe - That would be a PLEE-toon.

I can keep this up all day, folks.  Sadly.

...and TEE-Crack.

oh wait, that's how you say that anyway.

DEE-Jan

JEE-sey

HEEES-tage

DEEE-mry

DEE-Mac

PLEEEN-ty

BEEEZ-row

LEE-Foo (oh, wait, that's already his name.  should we change it back to Lefoo??  Ok.  Foo, get on that, buddy)

MarkinDEEEllas

MazfromEEEwa (now i'm just being silly) (not that i'm ever silly.  stooopid yes, but SEEE-lly?  never.) (Gawd i like these () things)

- drew.  just drew.

Bucco_Joe

Most welcome for the links.  Now if I could just get the gray men to click on my avatar for instructions and get an avatar all would be well :)

Good Morning everyone!  

Thanks DK for the photo of the gingerbread PNC...bless their hearts.  It looks like the gummy bears are seeing a good game.  ;-)

Thanks for the link to the piece on Adam.  I had the chance to talk to him in June at the BBQ for Bucs, and he's really easy to talk to...and that's something I have problems with.  And yes, that's Pittsburg without the "g"...they don't know how to spell in Kansas...sorry, I lived in Nebraska. :-)  

I do miss Adam's glove at first, regardless of what he did, or didn't do at the plate. Pearce and Jones made some nice plays, but IMO, Adam is better than either with the leather.  

Radio...I remember the last time the Pens played the Rangers and I posted.  I forgot that you were a Rangers fan and I sorta felt bad about rubbing it in.  I didn't want to do that again, but it sure was a good game by the Pens at the Igloo last night. :-)

DEE-Rew...I saw you comments on dropping off to sleep with PBP in your head.  I don't want to offend Mrs. Drew, but thank you. :-)     (What do you mean, your name doesn't have 2 syllables?  *grin* )

DMac - it does have two, but different syllables.  When mrs drew is happy with me, it's roo-roo.  Which means never.

ok, out to enjoy some Florida sun.  Feels like S.T. weather.

Is it just me, or is that Drew a bit of a strange feller?

DMac- It used to be a Thanksgiving tradition that the local channels would show a news piece on Turkey Bowling in Pittsburg, KS. They would act as though it was happening for the first time, mutter something about how wacky it is, and then the co-anchor with the degree from L'Oreal would say "There's a Pittsburg(h) in Kansas too?!".

At which point, Paul Long would roll over in his grave and the countdown clock to Christmas would be reset.

JLP...Drew's strange?  Isn't that kinda like the pot calling the kettle black for you?  Strange in a good way, on both accounts, but still...   ;-)

I'm biting my tongue, trying not to blast the Sunflower State anymore than I already have.  But really, there isn't much else to do in that part of the world.  This is the same state with bump-in-the-road towns with names like Long Island and DEE-troit too...and Drew, that is how they say it.    *grin*

It seems like PA is the only state to spell it right...Pittsburg CA is g-less too.

Karstens is due a raise. That does not go over wery well in these parts.

------------------------------

Karstens was dumped not only because of arbitration, but because of having no options.

Jaks has options, and so if he doesn't make the team or is sent down, they can do that. With Karstens, if he wasn't doing the job, they couldn't send him to the minors.

JLP

I had lunch with drew about two weeks ago and he did not seem strange other than the fact that he actually wanted to have lunch with me :)

Pantie - now was that nice?

- roo-roo

(rue the drew)

Must be nice weather around as several have go out to do chores.  nice day here too.

btw, avatar = today, outside

DMAC: No harm, no foul. As a lifelong Rangers fan you come to expect these things.

Do we know anything about Clement's defensive abilities?

I think Pearce has had enough chances, but he did show some signs of defensive ability/improvement.

Moose - good point on Koby Clemens as a possibility for the minor league portion of rule 5. I'd forgotten about that.

Radio

Everything I have read says Clement's defense is below average.  Since he started as catcher he could improve at first.

nice to see us at #1 in something...

I would be a lot happier if CLEment was 'fighting for a first base start' vs. having been bestowed a la andy last year. I tend to agree- if this FO has punched your ticket you are onboard for a good look. I would not rule out a good look at him in ST but no award of the base yet, please.

I still hope for a big spring from moss and some punch. I hope for CLEment to have a good spring. I assume legend will have one. it would be really nice to see all 3 knocking down florida and az OF walls in a few weeks.

For the record Drew seems like a good guy and I likely know some of his kin. @JAL: I made a reference to Captain Midnight / HBO satellite thing from back in the 80's last night. I didn't anybody to catch it or remember it. Although, if anyone did get it, I expected it to be you.

>>Thanks to JAL's link, I've now been horrified to find out that Virgil Vasquez has just signed a minor league deal with the Pirates.<<

And somewhere, this Sunday, PoH is floating on air.

"Karstens was dumped not only because of arbitration, but because of having no options."

Mark, I tried that argument with Demery the other day.  It didn't take.

Pants - they're the normal ones.  You wanna go on the OS thread and discuss who yo...

...oh...right...ummm...

nevermind.

TWO can play at THIS game.  (Tho you do it decidedly better than me.)

Scary, huh?

JLP

I remember the older Captain Midnight --the TV show, not the radio show :)

JJ -

>>Remember this, you do not have to keep him. [Rule 5 pick]<<

That's true. But if you pick someone, you have to remove someone from the 40-man roster and risk losing that player later in the draft. So by picking, you take a chance. The GM needs to feel pretty certain before taking that risk, in my opinion.

It's beautiful here in the Burgh too...nice enough to play 2.  The field at PNC is beautiful and green, just waiting for the Pirates to get back out there.

Drew...umm..your avi is scary. ;-)

And I hope that if there's anyone reading from Kansas, I was just teasing.  My mom's family is from there and there are a lot of good people there.

Drew71 and JoseLindsPants -

>>Is it just me, or is that Drew a bit of a strange feller?<<

I think you both are Olympic calibre in that regard.

DMac -

So far as the "h" at the end of Pittsburgh, it was taken away between 1890 and 1911, then put back. Did you know that?

JAL -

I remember the TV Captain Midnight from Saturday mornings. He flew his own jet called the Silver Dart. Then, when it headed to syndication, Ovaltine (sponsor) would not allow the Captain Midnight name to be used. So it underwent a name change to Jet Jackson. Rumor has it there's a new cable version ready to debut called Jose Lind's Midnight Pants.

>>Ten Worst Franchises<<

I am surprised to see both Tampa Bay Bucs and Oakland Raiders in that list. I realize both are among the teams with the worst record the last couple of years. But they played each other in the 2003 Super Bowl.

How do you go from best to worst FRANCHISE (not just current record) in that short a period?

G-man...yes, actually I had read that a couple of years ago, before I moved.  

DK -

>>All about Pittsburgh and the missing-h<<

Any chance of a parallel story about the missing h from "NuttingOstage"?

All of us that read / contribute to this blog know that some of us are trying to be optimistic about the Pirates' record next year, and some of us are pessimistic about the team's chances in 2010.  

For those of you that live outside of Pittsburgh, in or near cities that have a MLB team,  I am interested in knowing what the fans of other teams are thinking about their hometown team right now.  What are some of the sentiments on other team's blogs:  we are one position player away,  we have no hope, the owner is  cheap,  the bullpen is strong but the starting pitching is shaky, the roster is too old, we could win the wild card....etc.   I am mostly interested in the reaction from teams that didn't make the playoffs.

(one team that I think seems to pretty optimistic is Seattle --and their GM seems to getting a lot of praise & is highly respected)

Thundercrack -

Good question. How do other fans feel. I am especially curious about other "small market" [sorry, DK] teams such as Kansas City. Last time I remember them being a contender I think George Brett was still playing. And I really wonder how Cincinnati Reds fans view their short term future.

TC - Tampa Bay Rays:  Optimistic for a fairly good season, pessimistic about making playoffs.  Some complain that owners won't spend money yet despite two years of good baseball - in fact first two years EVER of good baseball - and despite decline of region's other sports teams (Lightning last year, Bucs this year), stadium is nowhere close to being full.  Not uncommon for Yankee games to feel like an away game. (Tampa is essentially Yankee-South...NYY's ST and winter home are here, along with displaced NYers.)

Locals complain that Rays will have trouble breaking through against their division's big payroll teams...yet that is exactly what they did two years ago.

Best thing the locals could do to help in that regard is to, you know, TRY GOING TO A GAME ONCE IN AWHILE.

They whine about the stadium the parking the concourse (the CONCOURSE?!) etc, but they wont support the funding for a new park, and old or new park, they're missing out on some pretty good ball.

Bottom line: general belief that the team is fairly good and pretty well led, and whining about everything else.

None of this from reading the local blog...it comes from conversations, and occasionally listening to local talk radio, which rivals getting teeth drilled.  if you ever wondered what happened to the Fabulous Sports Babe, sigh, she's down here.  

Hey, i'm not proud of it.

@Thundercrack: By this time tomorrow, I'll have fallen off of my roof hanging lights or been shot by a myopic hunter. Either way, I'll not see the fruition of your query.

Maybe it would be a good project to send Asylum members out into the wilderness to collect intelligence on the other teams.

I suspect that you will find that cities with orchestras instead of symphonies will be more optimistic about their sluggers but symphonic cities will trump that with their unbridled enthusiasm for their ability to extend an inning as a effect of their starting eight's overinflated on-base-percentage.

Pants - they're the normal ones.  You wanna go on the OS thread and discuss who yo...

 Where,where?

Geez anymore avatars with DK's picture on them?Anyone else? Bueller?Kovacevic?

Don't know if DC is small market or not.  population of District low and shrinking but Metro area pretty big.  Anyway, Nats fans are showing optimism.  The have their young star, Zimmerman, signed long term and drafted and signed Strasburg.. They fell for Morgan and how the team played after they obtained him.

JAL -

>>Don't know if DC is small market or not.<<

All one has to do to answer that is try to drive anywhere in Northern Virginia.

JAL - With 5.35 M people, the DC metro area is not considered a small market. The Nats are the #14 team out of 30 in terms of market size. So pretty much mid-market.

Despite the loss of Hanrahan, I think the Nats acquisition of Morgan was a great thing for them. They severely needed a CF, and Milledge was not going to give that to them. So, I'd say this trade will probably work out for both teams.

I'm a little torn about this whole optimistic, pessimistic taking sides thing.

Do I think they'll stink up the joint? Of course. But I can't really say I feel as though the Republic is in danger.

In fact, I've become addicted to the ceremony of events that other fans don't really get to experience the way we do. Fans of the Red Sox only have two things. Lust for rings and hatred of the Yankees. Such a self-centered view is no way to live a life. We're more advanced organisms than that. We're like the almighty yeast. We were put here to provide pleasure and look after one another.

Pirates fans are lucky. We get to go down and look at the underside of operations: The Draft, the Rule 5 Draft, the trading for prospects, the hiring and firing of GMs, the significance of the number 82. These are under-appreciated aspects of the game that tell us about ourselves. The mobocracy may love the long ball, but the true fan understands the passionate act that is the sacrifice bunt.

Not wanting to stir any controversy. Just giving the view from my island.

Markln

True at the basic level but two problems with the 5.35 M.  One, a large number are only here a few years so they are hard to get as a fan base.  Two, when you get to the Maryland side you are as likely to find an Oriole fan as a Nats fan.  

In addition to the points set forth in the article by Robert Dvorchak supporting Danny Murtaugh's enshrinement in the Hall of Fame, I'd like to offer the following:

1. In the 1970 Three Rivers Stadium Souvenir Book, Post-Gazette Sports Editor Al Abrams, in an article about Murtaugh, aptly summarizes Murtaugh's qualities as a Manager:  

"Winning one flag doesn't necessarily qualify a manager to greatness.  There have been instances when it doesn't even guarantee the same job the following year.  ...  There is something, however, about Murtaugh which denotes greatness.  For one, baseball people, especially the opposition, hold him in high regard.  Number two, and even more important, is his ability to handle men.  This is a requisite every leader in any business must possess or he'd better give up.  Murtaugh doesn't wear kid gloves.  Neither does he crack the whip too hard.  He has his own unique way of keeping his players and all those about him happy.  He jokes with everyone, yet at the same time he let's all know he is in complete command."

2. Those qualities helped the Pirates prevail in the 1960 World Series despite suffering three losses of 16-3, 10-0, and 12-0, and to come back from an 0-2 deficit in 1971.

3. The 1960 Yankees entered the World Series on a 15 game winning streak to end the season before the Yankees lost Game 1 of the World Series.

4. The 1971 Orioles, who had four 20-game winners, entered the 1971 World Series winning their last 11 regular season games, sweeping the Tigers in the Playoffs in 3 games, and winning the first 2 games of the World Series.  The Pirates took 4 of the next 5 games.

5. In the critical Game 7 of the 1960 and 1971 World Series, Murtaugh outmanaged his Hall of Fame counterparts:

In 1971, Murtaugh was somewhat criticized in Sports Illustrated for using a predominantly right-handed lineup against the Orioles LHP Dave McNally in Game 2 because in doing so he had to bench Richie Hebner and Al Oliver in favor of Jose Pagan and Gene Clines.  Collectively, Hebner and Oliver had outhomered Clines and Pagan by 25 and had 92 more RBIs.  This move failed in Game 2, but in Game 7 with LHP Mike Cuellar on the mound, Murtaugh came back with the same lineup.  In the top of the 8th inning, with the Pirates leading 1-0 and Willie Stargell on first base, and Jose Pagan at the plate, Murtaugh did not pinch run for Stargell as a Manager would probably do today.  Instead, Murtaugh ordered a hit and run.  Stargell took off for second and Pagan drove a double to the warning track in left center field off of Cuellar.  Because of his head start, Stargell was able to score what turned out to be the winning run.  In the bottom of the 8th, with the score now 2-0, the first two Orioles got aboard with singles.  Showing confidence in his pitcher, Murtaugh never came to the mound.  Blass pitched out of the jam, giving up only 1 run on a ground out, and finished the 9th for the complete game.  

In Game 7 of the 1960 World Series, Murtaugh, playing by the book, twice had his batters bunt the runners over with runners on first and second and nobody out.  The first time came in the 2nd inning with the Pirates leading 2-0.  Burgess and Hoak were aboard and Maz bunted toward third.  Maz beat out the bunt for a base hit and the bases were loaded.  The pitcher, Law, then bounced into a 1-2-3 double play.  Virdon, however, delivered a two-run single to give the Pirates an early 4-0 lead.  In the bottom of the 8th inning, with Cimoli on second and Virdon on first and nobody out, Murtaugh let Groat hit away and he delivered an RBI single cutting the Yankees lead to 7-5.  With Virdon now on second and Groat on first, Murtaugh had his number three hitter, Bob Skinner, sacrifice the runners over.  With one out and runners on second and third, Nelson flied out to Maris.  Clemente beat out an infield hit to first scoring Virdon.  With Clemente on first, Groat on third, and the score now 7-6, Hal Smith hit the three run home run to give the Pirates a 9-7 lead.

6. Murtaugh was probably one of the first managers to use a true closer (Face) and was not afraid to pitch him for several innings if necessary to get the win.  

7. Murtaugh fielded the first non-white line up in MLB history.

No doubt about it - Murtaugh does belong in the Hall of Fame. All of the things Reading puts forth are a great argument for it.

Murtaugh was up against adversity twice in the WS and found ways to win when the Hall of Fame managers of the "superior team" did not.

He out-managed HOF managers on the biggest stage. He deserves it.

One of the possible Rule 5 guy names that has been thrown around is Chuck Lofgren.  What is his deal? anybody know anything about him? i know he used to be a top prospect.  Also, when is the rule 5 draft, and any other guys that anybody thinks deserves to be drafted?

"Mark, I tried that argument with Demery the other day.  It didn't take."

@21 & Mark...

Why do either of you waste the energy typing the letters on the screen?  It is not worth the effort to argue with demery or whoever else he is.  

Save your energy for talking baseball with somebody that has a valid point.  Not that guy.

Mack

Rule 5 draft Dec 12  

As for Lofgren

'

Last season he was 3-5 with a 1.48 ERA in AA 15 BB 31 K in 42 innings and 6-10 with a 5.32 ERA in AAA with 33 BB 61 K in 98 innings.

IT'S A CULTURE OF OFFSEASON DISCUSSION

JAL - I hear you on the DC challenge. There's a similar challenge here in Dallas. The DFW area is now 6.3M people, making it the 4th largest metro area in the country, behind NY, LA and CHI.

When I moved here in the mid 90s, there were about 4 - 4.5M people. So the area has grown in size by 50% in the last 15 years. As a result, there are a proportionally smaller number of people who have deep ties to the Rangers, who have won a total of 1 playoff game in their 38 years in DFW.

The Rangers drew 27K/game this year, which is slightly less than the average of 30K.

Yet the Rangers payroll was only 68M this year (20M less than average), and doesn't look to go up next year.

Essentially, the Rangers, despite being in the 4th largest market, are acting like a lower mid market team.

The owner, Tom Hicks, has really taken a beating with the recession and is trying to sell the team - one of 3 sports teams that he owns.

Never the less, the Rangers fans here are very excited about next year. The farm system has been improved markedly - ranking #1 in baseball in 2009. The fans have really bought into the youth movement as they saw real progress with it in 2009.

The expectation for the Rangers around here is that they could and maybe even should win the division in 2010 despite the financial constraints of the ownership situation.

egscoach -

I actually am not trying to convince Demery, NutHo, BFD or Smizik and the like of anything when I respond to what they write.

I've got no illusions that they will change their minds. They've already shown their minds to be closed to any facts that don't agree with their point of view.

I am writing for the lurkers who read what they say and wonder if they have a valid point or not.

Mark

Been the the DFW many times and even went to a Rangers game.  The are is very spread out and last time I was there Arlington had practically bridged the area between D and FW

Mark in Dallas: I had thought that Houston was ranked #4 metro area in U.S.?

Drew: "The Fabulous SportsBabe" is alive and on the air in Tampa? You have our deepest sympathy. On XM 144, one of the talk shows is hosted by a pair of former ESPN jocks who worked with her while she was there. They talk about how she basically cleaned out the buffet  table at the Christmas party.

For the poster who asked about how fans feel in other cities, I can tell you on XM, where you get a national cross section, the Mets fans in particular are not happy. They hate their GM, and feel they are a disfunctional team that has no chance in the NL East.

Mark, I get the sense from Rangers fans, that as long as Nolan Ryan calls the shots, they anticipate good things happening there.

"wonder if they have a valid point or not."

@ Mark,   No they dont have a valid point.  No matter what NH attempts, it is wrong in their point of view.  Can't change it.  It is what it is.

I was one of the posters who left here during the summer.  Couldn't handle the nonsense.  And last weekend was as bad is could possibly get.  But there are some great posters on here.  I am slowly working my way back.

And I will say this about nuthostage.  On another site, I have actually had a few discussions with him concerning Pirate baseball back in the late 70's.  Dude has a great memory.  They have been fabulous conversations.  When he wants to talk baseball, he is as good as they get.

radio -

Houston is the 4th largest city in the US, but actually has 500K less people in the metro area than DFW. Houston itself is very geographically large, so that the city is most of the metro area, but DFW comprises Dallas, Fort Worth, and Denton - plus all the large suburban cities like Arlington, Irving, Plano (richest city per capita in the US), etc.

DFW is geographically massive, which is of course another challenge when trying to get everyone to one location for a game.

I live very near to downtown Dallas, and I'm about 25-30 minutes from the Ballpark in Arlington. The friend we most often go with lives in the north east suburbs, so it takes him about 30 minutes to my house, then we drive the 30 minutes west.

On Nolan Ryan - yes, that has been a very good development with the Rangers. Together with Jon Daniels, there's a lot of hope.

I keep using Daniels as an example of a new GM that make some bad moves initially - much, much worse than the Bay trade for example - and still was able to turn things around in 4 or 5 years.

JAL - Of course, the new Cowboys stadium almost bridges Arlington to Dallas all by itself now. That thing is the most massive structure I have ever seen. It appears as a giant spaceship in the distance.

But, yeah, the mid cities area between Ft. Worth and Dallas is now pretty much all developed.

My parents bought their house in Plano, which is about 25 miles north of Dallas in 1988 I think. There was a horse farm across the street and the population of Plano was about 75K. Now, you'd have to go another 20 miles north to find a horse farm probably. Plano has about 275K people now.

I actually am not trying to convince Demery, NutHo, BFD or Smizik and the like of anything when I respond to what they write.

I've got no illusions that they will change their minds. They've already shown their minds to be closed to any facts that don't agree with their point of view.

-------------------

As have you MArk and many others supporting the dark side.

This is what cracks me up.... The "pronutters" think  they are showing/teaching us hillbilly anti-nutters something and we are just too closed minded to switch to the other side.

Has it ever occured to "you" that I don't agree witgh what you are saying?

Closed mindedness has nothing to do with it.  I could say the same thing about you MArk iin that you refuse to awknoledge the product on the field.

GO STILLERS

MAz is in the house.Why are we talking this way?Another way of BEating a dead horse into hamburger?I lost track.

EGSCOACH - No they dont have a valid point.  No matter what NH attempts, it is wrong in their point of view.  Can't change it.  It is what it is.

-----------

From your post i gather that anyone who does not agree that brighter times are ahead in 2,3,4,5, (what ever the timeframe is now) has no valid reason for this thinking?  Is this correct?  If so, that is an absolutely assinine statement.

Oh boy oh boy oh boy--now the talk has turned to dogmatism  best be careful or I will have to give my class lecture on dogmatism and traits of a dogmatic.  :)

Mark,

I left the Metroplex about three years ago and still miss it.  What a great city and a wonderful place to raise a family.

We lived in Plano for about twelve years and can count on one hand the number of Ranger games I attended.  It was a good 45 minutes to get to the ballpark (on a good day) and often times it took close to 90 minutes to get home.  Obviously not an ideal situation for kids.

Once the Roughriders set up shop in Frisco we had a great, inexpensive alternative.  The Rangers have good people in their sales and marketing departments but it's a chalenge.  And we haven't even discussed the heat factor.

It's a tough sell.

traits of a dogmatic.  :) or train a dogmatic.lol.Just put em in gear and they shift themselves.  :-)

@ JAL: I like dogs. We had two at one point.

@ egscoach: I appreciate your point, but it is never a good thing to generalize. A number of us who are walking the Dark Side, including the Feared Nutting Hostage, like the trade for Milledge. IIRC, Hostage was pretty vocal about that.

@ JLP: So you know about the Number 82? Hmm. Well, if you see any Black Helicopters while you are on your roof "stringing lights" I am sure you will know what to do next. The New World Order needs you. I have already stashed Euros, Riccola and bottles of San Pellegrino to get me through the Crisis and establish my street cred as a Citizen of the World.

Millvale will become the new Gstaad.

Jose

Dogmatism:

1. a statement of a point of view as if it were an established fact.

2. the use of a system of ideas based upon insufficiently examined premises. — dogmatist, n. — dogmatic, adj.

alternative definition:

dog·ma·tism (dôgm-tzm, dg-) n.

Arrogant, stubborn assertion of opinion or belief.

Both sides of any argument can throw these type of terms at the other.  The issue is not the point of view, it is the method of discussion.  So i suggest we all reflect back on the good will expressed here by ALL on Thanksgiving, and think about these definitions.  We're all adults here.  No need to point at each other.  I suggest we think about what we expressed on Thursday, think about these definitions, and deside how we want to act every day, not just on Thanksgiving.

Peace to all of you, and go Steelers.  

Drew,

I once say the Fab Sports Babe trip going down an escalater in an Atlantic City casino.  She knocked over 4 people in front of her, as she (and they) tumbled to the bottom.  She got up, dusted herself off and proceeded to walk/stumble away....as 4 poor shmos lie in her wake, requiring medical attention.

True story....and eternally burned in my brain!

DK -

As I suspected..... you let the pro-nutters talk at will about close mindedness, but the minute someone such as myself popes in to defend, a Bob Smizik style warning comes in.

BFD out

3

Vegas - kinda fits with the ESPN buffet story that Radio reported.

Reading

The case for Murtaugh’s enshrinement is indeed very strong. There’s little doubt in my mind that if he had those successes for a team like the NY Mets, he would already be in.

Good stuff.

Interesting thing about Rule 5 results.  Still to early for a final grade, but so far the early indicators of Neal and his scouts is, imo, fairly positive.  In many ways, this is like the draft, in which current management has performed pretty well, even if the grade is still incomplete.  I was initially hoping that they would NOT pick up a Rule 5 guy, but 1) they appear to be fairly adept at it and 2) isnt that exactly the kind of below the radar talent acquisition move that a low revenue team has to employ?  So...combine that with the 2nd position in the Rule 5 draft and i've flip-flopped.  I now hope they do it...though i won't exactly cry in my Wheaties if they don't

Now here's some meat for you "anti-nutters"....this management team seems to be pretty good at drafts of whatever rule type, yet the record is a bit less sterling (even if also incomplete) on other non-draft matters such as trades (mixed) and international (imo poor, of course heavily influenced by the Sano mess, but to date nothing of real significance from other signings.)

If i was President Frank, i'd meet with my management team and try to determine why we're pretty good at one, and so far not as successful at another.  Then, without the acrimony found in this nuthouse (that's NOT a Nutting pun), i'd try to dissect both and find common denominators of success that can be extended to all processes.  I'd also ask some hard questions such as:

- does this mean we should focus more on one set of processes than another...OR

- is there a way we can learn (or hire) expertise in less positive processes?

- i'd dig further and ask are there specific scouts assigned to the successful processes and different scouts assigned to the others?  do these early returns in any way reflect on the performances - good and bad - of these specific scouts?

This is kinda Management 101, so i expect they are probably holding these conversations.  Wouldnt it be interesting, and wouldnt it end a lot of uninformed speculations, if we could be a fly on THAT wall??

Not that it should affect his chance for enshrinement into the hall but by way of background about the man, I had the opportunity as a young teen to meet Murtaugh in Bradenton prior to the 1972 season.  Despite stepping down as manager he still attended spring training.  I warily approached him for an autograph and the man could not have been more pleasant and congenial.  He asked me questions about school, baseball and my favorite players.  I will always remember him as a good, decent man.

On Dejan's story about no multi-year contracts this offseason.  Wonder if that includes the season and also wonder about Iwamura  who, if memory serves, they said they hoped to work out an extension with.

DK:

Info on Murtaugh came from various sources including the Sports Illustrateds for the weeks of the 1960 and 1971 World Series, the 1970 Three Rivers Stadium Souvenir Book, the Pirates World Series Programs for the 1960 and 1971 World Series, listening to the radio broadcast for Game 7 of the 1960 World Series, and watching a replay of Game 7 of the 1971 World Series.

BFD -

I completely and absolutely acknowledge the product on the field.

I have no problems with debating the merits of different players, like Morton or Andy LaRoche, both of whom I think have great potential and others might not. Both the for and against of those viewpoints are valid and may or may not be correct as we see how the players develop. So those are not the kinds of things I'm talking about.

I'm not even talking about whether Huntington is a good GM or not.

I am specifically talking about the facts - and they are facts, not my opinions - that indicate the Pirates do not spend less than other teams proportional to their revenue.

I based my own view on those facts - not the other way around, and neither you nor anyone else who believes that Nutting has unduly profited from the Pirates have presented any facts to support your viewpoint at all.

If there were facts that you or anyone with that viewpoint would present, then I absolutely would consider it. I have no problems considering it, because when I did the research myself initially, I did it with an open mind to see if I could discover whether they were in fact spending what other teams spend on payroll.

After I did the research which made sense to me, I came to the conclusion that it was obvious that the Pirates were in fact spending proportionally what other teams spend on payroll, and possibly even more.

If you do have other information, please let me know about it.

Now, all that said, if you do not have new information on the subject, I don't plan on rehashing it right now because I think pretty much everyone is tired of the debate.

one of my greatest frustrations about this place is that with so many people focused on either denigrating or defending every inch of the Pirate's FO strategy, it's very, very difficult to hold honest, fair, and hard hitting discussions that dissect the EXECUTION of the management team, rather than the strategy, the TRUE intent or the manhood of Pirates leadership.

In the spirit of moving our discussions, as Dejan has asked,  back to baseball (and he is our host)...where one can occasionally compliment a move by the FO without necessarily being in love with every move they've made or being labeled...or where one can be critical of a specific move also without being labeled...i'd like to suggest that during the "slow period" of the next couple of months, we openly and fairly address several aspects of EXECUTION.  In other words, pick a topic on a day and explore, without rancor, what has been done right, and what can be done better, from purely and execution standpoint.  Maybe pick a slow day and say, each Friday will be Issue Day.

Anyone interested?

Hey Doug, I'll be tucked in my bed, so good luck. If you find yourself at a loss for words, bring up Delton Hall. Try to keep from humming "In A Big Country", it'll probably be stuck in your head after the first commercial break. And remember: dozens of people are going to be watching, so wear your good sweatpants.

Dejan

Thanks--seeing how the knee holds up make sense.  Pirate's have not had great fortune with multi-year contracts.  Doumit and maholm both were below expectations in 2009.  By the end of the Sanchez and Wilosn contacts they felt they were paying too much for the production they got.  Snell never developed into the starter his stuff indicated.

I guess Mark will just ignore the fact that LaRoche has a career 17.1% line drive rate.

DK - Couple of questions...

1. Have you asked anyone in the organization about how Andy LaRoche's second base work went and if they feel like he could in fact play second base in the future?

2. Some of us have been wondering if Neil Walker might be best switched back to catcher if Doumit is traded. When he was originally switched to 3B, was it because they thought he wasn't a very good catcher? If not, have you asked whether he might be able to go back to catcher?

Try to keep from humming "In A Big Country", it'll probably be stuck in your head after the first commercial break.

 Great.....now I'm off to youtube.Thanks JLP(sarcastic)

K guess not.

so...how bout dem stillers?

Drew

i like you suggestions, getting people to follow them will difficult.  Much easier to get a dig in at another poster than analyze something.

Speaking og theose Stillers--did little research yesterday and on Nov. 22, which was a game day for the Steelers, the Steelers' blog here had 56 posts.  That same day, offseason for baseball, the Pirates' blog had over 120 posts

JAL - you're probably right.  But it might be interesting to try.  But only if there's widespread interest.

Dejan - not the first time, but certainly not often.  Very occasionally someone asks re: moving him back.  Generally not picked up on by others.  But to be fair, i've seen it.  I haven't personally jumped on it because 1) he's pretty adept at playing 3B; 2) easier to build greater value by expanding him into an Infielder, not just 3B, which wouldnt happen as catcher; and 3) i vaguely remember the suggestion that he was not viewed as a strong defensive catcher...so better D at Infield than Catcher, if my vague memory is correct.  If the guy has trouble hitting for average, the last thing i'd want to do to an incomplete hitter is also move him to a position where he's an incomplete defender.

BF -

Why call out Mark for expressing his opinion on LaRoche?  I don't believe he said it was a fact that LaRoche would be great....just that he thinks there's potential there.  

The facts about the Pirates spending on payroll being proportional to other teams have been outlined numerous times on this blog and make a ton of sense.

You can either refute them, accept them, or move on.

You can show me one 26 yr old's line drive rate that was below par, and I'll show you 10 that improved greatly over the next few years.  Until that 26 yr old retires, his LD% is incomplete, no?  

Based on that logic, we should give up on McCutchen and his 18% LD%.

JAL - good stat, but some smartie would probably say 60 of the posts were about Bob Nutting and 45 about mrs drew!

LaRoche is currently a 3B who hits like a 2B which is why you're bringing up the future 2B excuse.  The fact is the Pirates brought in a pricey second baseman instead of moving him over this offseason.

Sounds like "some of (them)" are getting their Doumit dump excuses ready.  It would open the door for Walker even though he has been at 3B for three seasons.

BF -

I haven't ignored Andy's line drive rate, and I do think that will have to improve further if he is to have a break out year in 2010. It was a horrendous 15% in 2008 and improved to 17% last year.

When he was on in long stretches of 2009, he was hitting a lot of line drives, but when he was off in long stretches he was really horrible - enormous number of popups and weak grounders.

The question is - is he just like his brother and is destined to run scalding hot and ice cold forever? I hope not.

I did "move on" and brought up a LaRoche fact, not one regarding payroll.  You're the one who needs to move on and the one who seems to have a problem with people expressing their opinions.  

DK,

  Any word about when Iwamura will be coming back to US.  Also, I am assuming he passed any physical prior to departing for Japan?

I would be willing to bet if Walker was a catcher and hitting for a low BA...his chance of sticking at the ML level would be better than if he was a 3B.Catchers don't need to be great hitters as much as 3rd basemen.

DK - I raised it as a hypothetical once, and JJ said that's what he was thinking about...some others chimed in...then I noticed that Smizik had said previously it was because Walker was no good as a catcher, but others did not believe that to be true.

So, what's the story on that? Was Walker switched to 3B because he was not good enough as a catcher or was it because Littlefield thought he had that position covered?

"The fact is the Pirates brought in a pricey second baseman instead of moving him over this offseason."

@BF...who would have played 3B if they moved LaRoche over at the beginning of the year?  They brought the pricey second baseman in because it was obvious Young, as a regular, was not the answer.

Good to talk to you again 3p!

BF -

Nice try.  Not much upsets me.  You tried to be smug about Mark liking LaRoche's potential.  And were called out on it.  I'd be glad to debate you (or any other) on a legitimate topic....not your sarcastic responses to posters on this site.  But I will call you out on those.

Mark,

 I think it was because Littlefield thought he had it covered.  Doumit, Paulino, etc.  Plus they were thrilled with Walkers athleticism.  I think they feel he can play any position beside SS and CF.

Not a bad guy to have around when you think about it.

maz - That's exactly the idea. Walker has been an under achiever so far in the minors, but even still his numbers are better than Jaramillo's at the same age. I think that Walker could become an average MLB bat for a catcher.

Thanks DK.  I appreciate it.  Good to have you back.

As far as the medical records are concerned, the Giants had access to Sanchez and his medical records and look how that turned out.  Doesn't exactly make me all fuzzy inside.

Hoe the guy is 110%.  I look forward to seeing him play.

DK -

Thanks. I know this FO likes to keep players at their most challenging positions as long as possible so I'm guessing with the Doumit rumors if we don't see Walker playing catcher anytime soon, it will be because they see him as having greater value as an infielder.

There's no one available to play 3B like Iwamura was to play 2B?

Neil Walker will make the team out of ST as I predicted before.  Pressure will be on him and he will consider his after MLB job.  He will catch on with another team and become a usable utility guy catching and playing 3B and eventually 1B.  He might even get around to a few teams averaging .240 but hitting a high of .285 showing some power a couple years.  He's got to rip it up to stick with the Bucs because he's "expressed an opinion".  

My thoughts on Walker are that it would take 2 full years to get him MLB ready as a C.  While that's not terrible from our perspective, for him, not good.  I don't think the FO would do that to him at this point.

I like him as a super-sub.  Seems athletic enough to play all 4 corners plus emergency C and INF.  And I like the switch-hitting bat off the bench if he shows some power.

He seems like a gamer too......someone with the right attitude to thrive in any role anytime.

Reminds me a bit of John Wehner with a bit of power.

LLOYD

No...I don't think there is.  Alvarez is not ready.  

I agree Lloyd.  Most of this bench is set if you ask me.  JJ, Young, Walker, Pearce and the $2 million back up.  Assuming a 12 man staff, I would say they are not really going to add there.

Young and Walker give them some options.

BF -

LaRoche's LD% is something that I did look at this year. Something that I think is missing from the stats sites is the ability to see things like LD% over a set period of time instead of just for the whole year.

We have tRA for pitchers now which tells us the amount of runs we would expect from that pitcher's distribution of Ks, BBs, LDs, FBs, etc. But we don't have that for hitters, which seems like an obvious thing to look at.

I probably am going to create a tool that can be used for both pitchers and hitters to see if the hitter or pitcher has been getting "lucky" or "unlucky" in actual results compared to what those peripherals are predicting. You could see on a game by game basis or a period you select.

None available as a free agent or in a trade like Iwamura? Yeah right.

So much for Alvarez in '09.

The Pirates are in need of good young, productive players.  Plus the further they are away from free agency the better.  If Neil Walker is productive they'll find a spot for him on this team.  

I don't think him speaking out (which he really didn't say anything that bad), or that he was a draft pick from the former FO will have anything to do with it.

Plus if they can get even a microcosm of good will by having a local kid on the roster, they'll take it---but only if he produces

Drew,

What is wrong with the concourses at the Trop?  Why do Rays fans complain about them?

I see Moss on the bench instead of one of those....probably Walker to start the year.

Nah...barring Alvarez really struggling in AAA this year, he will be up at some point.  Remember, he struggled at Lynchburg and proceeded to rake upon a questionale promotion to AA.

Neal's words haven't been hard to figure out.  There is talent being developed and it's going to take some more time and more talent to get there, but I think NH should get Manager Russell to deliver the message so it is really really dry and nobody pays attention to it.  Then, when it gets better he can hire a manager that shows a little bit of  motivational techniques to get the Buccos to win.  Why doesn't Phil Garner or Jim Leyland manage this team, or isn't it time yet?  And what's up for Bixler/Vasquez/Doumit/Capps/Maholm/Pearce/Iwamura and a couple others? What does 2012 hold?

Neals wheels keep on turning

Your proud PBC keeps on burnin"

See you, see you; Oh Lord

See you in twenty - eleven

We could use Eric Young, Jr and Conor Jackson in this mix, maybe Ryan Rowland-Smith

BF -

I agree that they could have picked up a 3B in FA or trade, and moved Andy to 2B.  The fact they didn't, though, maybe points to Pedro coming up in June.  If they had pursued/signed a 3B, then I believe no sighting of Pedro until '11.

Or, it points to them not believing Andy could handle 2B.  Either way, I believe Iwamura will be solid for this team.

Call me crazy Lloyd, but I think Moss will be busy in RF.  I am just not convinced Clement will show anything to be starting the season at 1B, thus that will me manned by Jones.

Mark

Luck wasn't an excuse last season, he had a .287 BABIP.

Vegas...yes there probably was somebody they could have picked up in a trade.  But an upgrade over LaRoche.  Any type of upgrade over LaRiche would have been pretty expensive, prospect wise.

They filled a hole with a relief pitcher.  And no, I don't see a 3B on the market that does anything for me.  Beltre, maybe.

T-Crackie - i was being somewhat facetious, but not totally. I've heard more than a few complain that the pedestrian entryway and concourses are so narrow that people are forces to walk all squishy-like...evidently it takes forever to get to seats or buy a wienie.  hmmm.  makes one wonder whether they'd like to trade their playoff caliber team and lousy stadium for the opposite.  i know one town that might take that trade.

Why get a 3B when Laroche is good enough to move to SS when Alvarez shows up.  I like a .265/15/70 SS - championship material.  A really good 2B can hit for .300 and get on base at a .375 clip.

BF -

There are only 2 free agent 3Bs that were worth more than Andy LaRoche (2.5 WAR) in 2009 - Chone Figgins (6.1 WAR) and Juan Uribe (2.9 WAR).

In his 9 year career, Uribe has been worth more than 2.5 WAR only twice.

So, that leaves only Figgins as a sure upgrade on Andy for 2010.