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Post-Gazette beat writers Dejan Kovacevic and Chuck Finder blog about the Pittsburgh Baseball Club.

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Morning links: A stove rekindled

By Dejan Kovacevic | 12:40 a.m. Friday

Hey, who turned on the lights?

Hope everyone had a terrific Thanksgiving, as well as all the other time that lapsed so quickly since the final out in Cincinnati. From a week in Mexico to a drive to Niagara Falls to simply teaching the kids some street hockey in the driveway (yes, the back is all the way back), it has been an outstanding break. But, as with all such breaks, the itch to resume making calls, asking questions and looking ahead to 2010 comes back -- with a vengeance, actually -- right near the end of it.

And so it was that we get off to a start today with a catching-up interview with Neal Huntington that looks over the broad scope of the Pirates' offseason, as well as why they sound determined to stick with what they have, particularly with Jeff Clement, right, at first base. You also will see the names of Rick Ankiel -- again -- and Hank Blalock in the piece, though those names and others of prominence probably should be kept in context: Fact is, the Pirates' immediate plan really does not involve some significant upgrade at any one position other than second base, which they addressed with the trade for Akinori Iwamura.

I never have seen Clement play baseball, so my views on his talent will be limited to the numbers, which show promise in terms of power and not nearly as much in other facets, especially defense. But he is 26, and he has kicked the Class AAA tires enough already that a look-see in the Steve Pearce mold might be a better move than bringing in a one-year guy like Ankiel or Blalock. Or not, depending on your viewpoint.

This is Clement's official page.

And this is a brief chat I had with him earlier this month.

And this, as a final note, is how you pronounce his last name: CLE-ment. In other words, it's not how Matt Clement pronounces his, though Jeff says he gets that a lot.

Anyway, things might look a little different in terms of some coverage this offseason, all aimed at upgrading, but more on that in the days to come. For now, I can tell you that the weekly Hot Stove notebook will resume Sunday, in print and online.

And thanks to so many of you for somehow keeping this place as vibrant as it was in this time.

Linkage to the general coverage ...

> Main story: The aforementioned can be found here. Included in the package is a depth chart I drummed up from some talks with Pirates people this week. Obviously, this is subject to significant change by the time the Dodgers hit town.

> In case you missed it: Chuck Finder detailed Jose Tabata's fine fall in a piece that ran Wednesday.

And from other realms ...

> A round of a Clement batting practice from 2007 ...

> Jenifer Langosch at the Pirates' official site describes Thanksgiving at the team's Dominican facility.

> Bryan Bullington is still trying.

> Charlie Wilmoth at Bucs Dugout examines new pitcher Chris Jakubauskas. Yes, it probably will be that kind of winter in these parts.

> Pat Lackey at Van Slyke is thankful for Andrew McCutchen.


Posted Nov 27 2009, 12:40 AM by Dejan Kovacevic

Comments

Forbes Field Memories wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 12:46 AM

Firsties!!?  

Welcome back DK!!!!!!!!!!

BaseballFan wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 12:46 AM

Pittsburgh Pirates: Top 10 Prospects

www.fangraphs.com/.../pittsburgh-pirates-top-10-prospects

LLOYD Be Free wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 1:39 AM

I can live with Clement getting a shot but if he, Moss and Pierce all show what they showed this year, I'll be ticked.  And that's just offensively.  AAA time can help with D too.  Clement can get better there.  

And the bullpen and bench sure seem to call for at least one acquisition apiece.  No one will be blocked there.

After my 2010 roster post last night, I checked out the O and D stats and did a little reading on Cedeno, Jack, KGreene, Aki, Freddy and DYoung while comparing them.  What I see is a clear upgrade at 2B and lots of hmmm's and ummm's and not sure's at SS.

Just to be clear, I loved Freddy and Jack as our DP combo.  I also agreed with both trades.....I think the Wilson trade was a clear steal and the Sanchez trade is 5 years away from rating.

Aki will be the best overall 2B option of the 3 in my opinion because of his speed.  Playoff experience, clubhouse presence and confidence will be intangibles that will help too.

At SS.....If Khalil can be had for 1.5 million or maybe even 2, I think he is worth the risk.  He is only 2 years from being the best of this trio by far.  Jack and Cedeno seem so close both with the stats/research and with watching them live and on TV.  I don't have a problem with starting with Cedeno because I think he isn't much different from Jack or most other FA's but if I'm the FO, I'd make a run for Greene.  Even for maybe 1.7mil and a club option for 4mil for 2011.  If they get outbid, OK, but make an attempt I think.

Just my opinion....

LLOYD

LLOYD Be Free wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 1:41 AM

DEJAN,

Sure missed you and I'm thrilled about your return.

Welcome Back!!

LLOYD

mazfromiowa wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:01 AM

Interesting statement about Bullington

                    "He is a strike thrower and has always been," Sharp added.

      Really?

MarkInDallas wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:23 AM

Welcome back, Dejan! I hope you were able to recharge all the batteries needed for the coming year, as I'm sure it will be one filled with wonderful opportunities for edifying interviews of the new faces and how they do, be it for good or bad.

I think it's amazing when you look at the number of players of unknown production that were stuck in the lineup for the first time and how many performed well, and how many were disappointments.

-----------------

The pleasant surprises....Cutch, Jones, Nyjer, Milledge, DY.

The disappointments...Moss, Pearce, DY.

The still unknowns...Andy, Ronny.

-----------------

That's actually quite a bit of hits as opposed to misses for one year.

In 2010, we'll have probably 4 more...Clement, Tabata, Lincoln and Alvarez.

If we hit at the same rate as 2009, this will be a pretty good year.

Hope springs eternal as they say!

emoneypitt wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:31 AM

Welcome back Dejan,

Hopefully there will be enough exciting news to report between now and Opening Day.

Harold Reynolds says the Pirates are a team to watch for in 2010. Hey, why not?

Moose wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:47 AM

""" *ATARI* wrote re: Thanksgiving baseball talk, 11-26-09

on Fri, Nov 27 2009 12:20 AM

When is the rule 5 draft this season?  All my searches seem to lead to previous seasons and not the actual date....apparently I can't work to google on the internet machine."""

Atari:

I believe the Winter Meetings this year are December 7th through 11th. The Rule 5 draft is usually held on the last day of the Winter Meetings.

So, I don't know for sure if December 11th will be the day of the Rule 5 draft. But that date ought to be pretty close, if it's not dead on.

Labor pains wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 3:46 AM

I would like to see the Bucs go after these 2 guys..Garrett Atkins and Hank Blalock. 1 year contract with an option for a 2nd year. Probably 5 mill a year would bring them to the burg. This would give us some rbi guys in the middle of the line-up. I just get tried of seeing an AAA line-up every night with no chance to win. Make Andy La the super sub around the infield. Middle of the line-up of Blalock,Atkins,Jones and Doumitt would be a whole lot nicer than what we are normally running out there every night

jersey joe wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 5:55 AM

                     Hear Ye Hear Ye Hear Ye

                     Gathering  Announcement

                       December 5 Noon Time

    The Double Wide Grille 2339 East Carson Street

                             Special Guest

                               Lou DePaoli

Executive Vice President and Director Of Media Marketing

                        Pittsburgh Pirates

  Another limited space location RSVP seat required

              RSVP to  tjfran@comcast.net

                   Accepting emailed question

Cajun Thunder wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 6:06 AM

19-41...let me repeat that...19-41. That was the Pirate record with the current roster...post-trade deadline from August 1st onward. That's a .317 winning percentage...or 51-111 for an entire season. And Mr. Iwamura is going to significantly improve the Pirates win rate?? That's what NH is telling us. That the Pirates are pretty satisfied with the roster they have. Thanks for the good news?? Congrats, folks...he's got me convinced. NOT!!

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 6:49 AM

Morning Link part 2

Off the mound, Pirates pitcher pursues farm policy

www.google.com/.../ALeqM5ibuP6g9urMIKkWg7zI7t0zq1or6wD9C7RFF01

John Lease wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 6:55 AM

It's beyond galling when Neal doesn't think the Pirates need more help.

I guess from his perspective they don't.  This bunch we currently have can finish in last without any pickups.

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 7:05 AM

THE OFFICIALLY UNOFFICIAL PBC BLOGS AND MLB LINKS:

Sandlot Swashbucklers--Cedeno Homers In Venezuela

mvn.com/.../cedeno-homers-in-venezuela.html

Scouting Book--Top Prospects for 2009

www.scoutingbook.com/.../PIT

Rumbunter-What Would a Pirate Fan Have To Be Thankful For?

rumbunter.com/.../what-would-a-pirate-fan-have-to-be-thankful-for

MLB Transactions

www.cbssports.com/.../transactions

Bucco Fans--Pittsburgh Pirates Top 50 Prospects: 6 - Gorkys Hernandez

www.buccofans.com/.../pittsburgh-pirates-top-50-prospects-6.html

Bucco Fans Wiki--Roster info

buccofans.wikispaces.com

FanGraphs--Pittsburgh Pirates: Top 10 Prospects

www.fangraphs.com/.../pittsburgh-pirates-top-10-prospects

Pirate Winter League Stats

mlb.mlb.com/.../org.jsp

VOTE:  This Year in Baseball Awards

mlb.mlb.com/.../index.jsp

PI Stingray wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 7:14 AM

It was interesting to note the Obituary and estate planning ad at the bottom of the Bryan Bullington article. Coincidence??? Time to prepare for a career change Bryan....

Thundercrack wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 7:41 AM

Another fine load of crap by the one that fears that someone like Mark Cuban will buy the Pirates.  Keep spending hours of wasted time trying to convince the masses that Bob Nutting & Regime can do anymore than fleece our pockets with rotten prospects and fire in the sky.  More fresh garbage....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well I can see that the spirit of Thanksgiving wore off pretty quick.

Are these types of comments / attacks on other people's posts really necessary?

Joey Bats wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 7:57 AM

HAPPY BLACK FRIDAY, everyone.

Great article DK.

Beat 'em Bucs!

Drew71 wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 8:25 AM

Dejan, Dejan, Dejan (shaking head slowly)...turned the lights ON??  i think not.  It's Black Friday.  Lights are off and bank account dwindling.

but...we kept the place vibrant???

hey mrs drew you vibrant vixen, did you hear that?  mrs drew??  oh yeah, she's been out shopping for two hours already.

That noise you hear is my checking account bouncing.

ok, ok, in Dejan's honor, BASEBALL...

Count me among those who WANT a one-year wonder in the OF or 1B.  Clement may be ready to hit but not field 1B...No More Make-Do's at the MLB level.  We clearly have the budget space after the '09 trades, and the team as specific holes to fill.  2B was a great start.  Now finish so we have a decent product to watch while the long term plan unfolds.

And for everyone who argues that we shouldnt sign any more Derek Bells, Joe Randas etc, i have three answers:

1) of COURSE we shouldnt sign anymore Derek Bell's!

2) WHY should we assume every signing will be a Derek Bell?  Why can't they be a Reggie Sanders?  a Kenny Loften, a Jeff Suppan?

3) if you're so sure this GM is only gonna sign the likes of Derek Bell and Joe Randa, you all oughta be calling for his head.  i for one am not convinced he will only sign Derek Bell's...and i'd like him to take the next two months to PROVE IT!

(gasp, pant...must breathe...gasp)

John Lease wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 8:31 AM
717bongoman wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 8:32 AM

Let me understand what Neal is saying:

- We've been trying to trade Doumit and Capps but nobody wants them at our asking price (what do those dagone Rockies want for Young anyway!)

-  We need at least 2 more last or near last place finishes to fill the minors the way we want them

- We will attempt to sign a couple free agents later on that represent potential to receive more prospects at the trade deadline

- CLE-ment is our first baseman because he represents prospects when we attempt to trade him to an AL team as a DH

-  We will make a financial killing with a payroll of only $31 mill (sure hope Nutting opens his wallett 3 years from now!)

Neal's wheels keep on turning

Your PBC keeps on burning

See you, Oh Lord; See you, Oh Lord

See you in twenty-eleven!

Drew71 wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 8:41 AM

ok, i'm gonna try to peer through the Black Friday darkness and ask a question:

Dejan, is Chris Jak-in-the-Baus NOT seen as in the competition for 5th starter?  If not, i'm mildly surprised.  He spent about half his '09 starting, had Karsten-like #s, and Neal often talks about the value of competition.  Since the 5 spot looks a little (lot) shaky, why not increase the odds?  Loser(s) can still end up in BP.  Or am i reading too much into the Hart-Clutch2 comment?

Drew71 wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 8:52 AM

ok, one more Q for Dejan then i'll hang up and listen...

IF this is truly an offseason where teams can find value in free agents, and IF our front office is following, in essense, the TRUE message of Money Ball (find value), and IF they have $18 MM of flexibility...putting all those together, if the right option presents itself, why NOT spend $ on a 3-year contract for a decent mid level free agent who can help for more than 3 months?  Why not take credit for and ownership of such a signing in the same way as they do for their prospects?  it almost seems that they ONLY value prospects.  If they sign a guy who's here for 3 years, hitting .285 with 25 HRs, why isnt that guy "theirs" as much as Matt Clement?  And why worry about blocking?  I once posted, there's no blocking (on a bad team), just OPTIONS.  There's no law that says they STILL can't trade the guy they sign, OR, for instance, if Tabata continues to hit, trade HIM or another prospect for a SS or pitching prospect or MLB PLAYER.

Ok, so i worked a rant into my Q, but it's a serious Q nonetheless.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 9:06 AM

Same old, same old Nutting Pirates.....

"but we definitely don't feel like we're desperate to fill any hole," , "we feel good about the options that we have"

Comments from the GM of a club that went 62-99 (.385) and has the lowest payroll in the sport.

Just further proof as to the extent of the ambitions and motivations of the NBC. (Nutting Ball Club).

The comments are indefenseable.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 9:11 AM

And for those interested in keeping score....

The roster moves two weeks ago where the Nuttings Pirates designated right-hander Jeff Karstens for assignment and claimed right-hander Chris Jakubauskas off waivers was all about the money.

Karstens is a 26 yr old "pilfered" from the Yankees for Nady and eligible for arbitration this off season.

Jakubauskas is a 30 yr old rookie fresh out of independent ball slated to earn between $400K and $500K.

So the bar goes lower and lower. - No longer are the Nuttings willing to compensate arbitration eligible players.

And POH if you are watching....it's not your money so don't stress over it.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 9:12 AM

I'm certainly glad we got the pronounciation of Clements name straightened out while at the same time the gulf between the Nutting Pirates and the remainder of MLB grows wider and wider.

I wonder what color shoes Lastings Milledge is wearing today?

21sthebest wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 9:14 AM

"The comments are indefenseable."

Agreed.  He should have said:

"We're pretty weak at almost all positions and I have no confidence in the players we currently have."

InZiskWeTrust wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 9:18 AM

Daquido,

What a lucid, well thought out response supported by all of the statistical evidence of.....

Anyway, hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving and doesn't waste too much money on Black Friday sales that are barely any better than normal, everyday sales prices.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 9:20 AM

JAL,

Great article about Ohlendorf.

That cat is certainly unique.

InZiskWeTrust wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 9:23 AM

NuHo,

Did Karstens show you anything over the last season and a half to warrant receiving 7 figures?

As a follow up, do you think that the bullpen role is so difficult that you should overpay for it?

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 9:25 AM

Zisk,

"and doesn't waste too much money on Black Friday sales that are barely any better than normal, everyday sales prices"

I dunno about that Richie. Dicks Sporting Goods has some hellacious deals on outdoor goods today.

For instance, they have their Field and Stream brand insulated and waterproof Advantage Realtree camo bibs on sale for $39.98. - That is just an unbelievable value.

Not to mention the Mossberg 500 combo 12 gauge with both a smootbore barrel and rifled slug barrel with scope for $249.98.

Or the buy one, get one 50% off on ALL ammunition.

Those are pretty darn good deals you don't see everyday.

I'm just sayin'......

Drew71 wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 9:26 AM

a few weeks ago i asked Dejan what he thought Neal meant by something...in essense mind reading.  Dejan was kind enough to take a stab at interpreting.  I just re-read my Qs today and realize i'm trying to get inside Neal's thinking.

So here's my early Christmas wish: Neal attending a Gathering.  No excuses on my part...there will be a plane, and my sorry behind will be on it.  I need to ask some questions directly of Neal...with opportunity for follow-up.  I will be there.

Now i'm off to dodge shoppers...to do ANYTHING ELSE but shop.

InZiskWeTrust wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 9:27 AM

I guess I should have considered that I'm in Houston and the sales are different.

We don't even have a Dick's here so we are not getting anything worthwhile.

John Lease wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 9:28 AM

Gee Zisk, the Pirates won't buy anything even when it IS on sale.

I'd take Cabrera from the Tigers in a heartbeat.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 9:28 AM

Zisk,

One, you are assuming Karstens would have gotten seven figures. - That is not a given by any means, rather just another exaggeration.

Two, when they have a $31M payroll, what diff does it make to pay more for a player who might actually have a future in major league baseball compared to the 30 year old rookie from independent ball? - It's not your money dude, and it's not your place to worry about it.

Try being a fan for a change and just think in terms of the club getting better, not saving the owner money.

717bongoman wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 9:31 AM

Kevin Hart is the new Jeff Karstens.  I guess these guys are a dime a dozen in Neal's mind, but I gotta believe Karstens could have been included in a trade to someone.  I forgot, we're not shopping anyone!  We're solid enough with what we have to see how it goes this year - can't wait to see Bix strike out 40 more times and lose his defense focus.  I'm thankful for the Royals, Nats, Orioles, Indians and Mets heading into next year's draft already.    But, 2012 isn't that far away is it? Your proud PBC keeps on burnin'.

717bongoman wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 9:35 AM

I like it - Cabrera could be the next Plaxico Burress in Pittsburgh

DMac wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 9:37 AM

Yippee!  DK is back!

Drew...Mrs. D has been out for 2 hours already?  Cripes...even when I don't have to work., which I do today, I just don't see the attraction.  But that's me.   Good luck!

.

JosePagan wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 9:40 AM

@ DK: Nice to see your byline again.

So Neal likes his options.  That is really encouraging for the coming season. This should then be the new motto:

"The Pittsburgh Pirates. We like our options."

Now, realizing that I am not the GM nor is it my money, here is my 2 cents:

Taken as individuals, the younger players (Milledge, AMac, Jones, etc) are talented fellows. We cannot, imho, expect this team to take a Great Leap Forward in 2010. Typically, players of that talent level get grafted onto a lineup. That is, the team has stronger vets on it so that as you add these pieces they can develop without feeling the weight of the world insofar as the pressure to win or try to carry the team. Putting these guys in this situation is to me detrimental to their development.

I really don't see adding a Blalock or an Ankiel as doing anything to remedy that. The chances of this team contending are small, so adding these guys (even if they have "good" seasons) means that once again they will be traded for marginal talent.

I find it overly optimistic that NH already believes CLEment (thank you Tony DorSETT) is the "answer" at 1B and that it seems Jakubauskas - who hasn't been anyone's answer anywhere - may be the PBC's answer at long relief. Certainly I would have taken Karstens in that role before this guy.

Is 62 - 99 possible again for this club?

Jose

1

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 9:44 AM

Jose,

2010 has 100 losses written all over it.

The NBC front office has done a remarkable job dumbing down the on-field product to never befoe seen low levels.

imbetterthenyouare wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 9:51 AM

This team is absolutely positively without any talent, anywhere of any kind. 125 to 135 losses this season. Lay money on it !!

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 9:55 AM

I think 125 to 135 losses is unlikely, and if it did happen though it would be horribly painful, it could finally be the lynch pin needed for force Nutting out of MLB.

A season that historically bad would bring the kind of attention needed to this situation.

Florist wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 9:56 AM

I think the Pirates are much closer then many imagine. If they can get production from the young arms and supplement them with a high upside FA SP  that comes through they could compete for sure.  I like what is happening player development wise.

John Lease wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 10:00 AM

Who cares that they cut loose Karstens?  He was a marginal major leaguer, EVEN on the Pirates.

Robinzon Diaz though makes no sense, especially since they go out and announce they are now LOOKING for catching.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 10:04 AM

John,

The cutting loose of Karstens is notable in that it was another cost cutting move that dumbs down the roster even further.

JosePagan wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 10:05 AM

@ Hostage: I really think that I will be enjoying the "operating on the cheap" is a good thing comments.

Somehow, it is thought of as almost virtuous that NH signs someone who, at age 30 is toiling in the Independent League yet others snicker about Bullington being signed (albeit to a minor-league contract).

I'll go out on a limb here and posit that Bullington has better stuff than Jakubauskas - even now.

Here's a thought: how about we go out and get talent and then pay that talent what it is worth when adding to the roster?

Now, I am NOT saying that we need to overspend or try to sign Pujols, I am just saying this whole "give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore." (with apologies to Emma Lazarus) needs to stop.

Jose

2

My-Key-Tee wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 10:05 AM

If Neal feels good about the roster - then we should feel good too....

So reality takes a back seat to feeling good.

It's a culture of feelings!

RumBunter wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 10:06 AM

"We do want to improve our offense, and we're going to continue looking hard for ways to do that. But I'm not sure that, even if we bring in someone from the outside, it's going to help us win more games right away than what we have.

Ok, Mr. Huntington.    I have news for you.  A sentence that begins with 'we do want to improve our offense' followed later with the we knew it was coming.... BUT word  really blows my mind.  'what the Pirates have' as you put it so eloquently provided the following production.  

Worst in Batting in MLB

Least Amount of Runs Scored in MLB

.705OPS  Second Worst in MLB

.387SLG   Second Worst in MLB

612 RBI    Second Worst in MLB

It Truly is Black Friday

JosePagan wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 10:07 AM

@ JohnLease: I dissagre somewhat on Karstens - I think he is at least better than The Great Jakubauskas, but for sure to cut loose Diaz and then announce you are looking for catching depth looks, sounds and smells funny.

Jose

3

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 10:09 AM

Jose,

"Here's a thought: how about we go out and get talent and then pay that talent what it is worth when adding to the roster?"

My goodness. What a radical concept.

You might be a genius.

;-)

John Lease wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 10:13 AM

I guess Perry Hill sucked as an infield coach too, since Carlos Garcia is going to really reach Cedeno.

Nuho-it's cheaper, sure.  But not a sin.  A sin is not trying to improve the worst team in baseball after the all star break.  Why can't we sign Blaylock?  Not enough Money?

mazfromiowa wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 10:16 AM

Some things(and people) never change. *sigh*

JosePagan wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 10:24 AM

@ Hostage: Me? A genius? No way! I keep forgetting that it is not my money and I am not a General Manager.

Do you think that the PBC could be even more virtuous in their spending by signing FO guys from the independent leagues to run the PBC FO? I mean, why pay NH the league average when you could get some guy who tries real hard to do it for half that?

Maybe (this is brilliant!) we could get the nun from the Little Sisters of the Poor who goes out to solicit companies to donate free food and supplies so they can perform their mission to work part-time for the PBC?

We can send the good Sister to all of the Major League clubs to solicit unwanted players to be donated to the PBC. In the meantime, Frank can work on having the PBC designated as a 501c3 charity. The player donations would be tax-deductible for the donating team!

I think this could be the new business model in baseball. Instead of "moneyball" we could call it "almsball."

Now where did I put Frank's cell #...

Jose

4

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 10:24 AM

I completely agree Maz.

It is a doggone shame too.

LLOYD Be Free wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 10:25 AM

Darn,

Just signed in and already gonna sign back off.  Thought you'd hunt through the weekend NutHo...........

LLOYD

JosePagan wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 10:26 AM

From Maz: "Some things(and people) never change. *sigh*"

Consistency is key. Thank you for holding up your part!

Jose

5

mazfromiowa wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 10:33 AM

My pleasure.Have a nice day.

My-Key-Tee wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 10:38 AM

Lets all feel as good as Neal...

www.youtube.com/watch

LeeFoo wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 10:39 AM

DK

Welcome back!!!

Jersey Joe....(a day late, but) thanks for that Limerick. I now feel officially an official member of the Official Asylum!

And for all who wondered, yes Mrs Foo saved some Turkey for Dymond. :=]

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 10:42 AM

Jose,

Maybe Frank could pull up a stool next to the Salvation Army lady out at the airport too?

;-)

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 10:42 AM

Lloyd,

Buh-bye.

John Lease wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 10:45 AM

JosePagan-What also seems odd is how 'great' they called Karstens after he went to the bullpen.  Seemed like the same guy to me.  In fact, for someone who threw a lot of first pitch strikes, he still barely struck out more than he walked.

www.baseball-reference.com/.../karstje01-pitch.shtml

Loved how he gave up an identical .279 BA both years.  That's hard to do.  He did get tagged harder though this year, and gave up fewer homers as a percentage.

JosePagan wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 10:46 AM

@ Hostage: It is worth a try...

Jose

6

CA Pirate wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 10:48 AM

Great to have you back DK!

An updated look at Ross Ohlendorf's off-season job.

news.yahoo.com/.../us_baseball_intern

Demery44 wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 10:49 AM

Rum, quit using facts to make your point.

What's wrong with you?

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 10:53 AM

Hostage

Glad you liked the story.  Ohlendorf is very interesting.

JosePagan wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 10:54 AM

@ John: For sure it gets difficult wading through statements by the FO about what impressive stuff a guy has or how they were "pilfered" from another team only to have him DFA'd and replaced by someone who no one has ever heard of.

I am no way saying that Karstens was going to be an All-Star, but he sure did fall from grace quickly.

I am not seeing anything from Jakubauskas' past that indicates he is as talented as Karstens, let alone an upgrade despite the bargain price.

Wait a tick - I think I answered my own question...

Jose

7

John Lease wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 10:54 AM

Fun fact-Ty Taubenheim was drafted in the same round as Jeff Karstens picked 2nd in that 19th round of 2003 by the Brewers.

The Pirates Drafted Dallas Buck in that same draft.  I guess he didn't make it... Our 18th round pick was Pedro Powell.  I have at least heard of him, but I don't think he's still around either.

In the 17th round, we selected Steven Herce.  RIGHT AFTER THAT, the Rangers picked Ian Kinsler.  Think we'd like a do over on that one?  Would you take HIS offense?

I'm depressing myself mightily.

www.baseball-reference.com/.../index.cgi

Cave Bonifield wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 10:54 AM

FOR ALL OF YOU STOCK MARKET PLAYERS OUT THERE

Question :

If the PBC was a publicly traded company, where should the stock be trading?

1. At a 52 week low and heading lower based on a hopless outlook..

2. Near a 52 week low but heading higher with the worst behind us.

3. At a 52 week high,  with all of the bad news out, a cheap payroll, and a very profitable year on the horizon.

4. Near a 52 week high based on high expectations for 2010 and beyond.

5. Drifting in an endles trading range at the midpoint between it's 52 week high and low.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 10:56 AM

Attention "Baseballfan" if you happen to login today.....

Are you "3P3" from the Pirate message board?

Just curious.

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 11:00 AM

Imbetter's inventor better examine him because he posts the same thing every time.  Seems the trying card is stuck  

As for the number of losses--remember 54-54-54

JosePagan wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 11:03 AM

@ Cave: The PBC is starting to look like Dubai World...

Jose

8

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 11:05 AM

Cave,

Great question but I think the answer depends on how you evaluate the NBC.

If you look at it like a business, I'd say the stock should be trading at a 52 week high. They are profitable in a challenging economy and have done a remarkable job managing their expenses.

If you look at the NBC like a sports franchise whose focus should be to win, then I'd say the stock should be trading at a 52 week low. - It is going to be quite some time before they are in a position to compete with the rest of MLB.

John Lease wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 11:06 AM

Cave, I'll take option 1.

Cave Bonifield wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 11:08 AM

Jose

That's a vote for #1.

JosePagan wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 11:11 AM

@ Cave: Seriously though, sign me up for Option 3. The bottom line is (as UPMC would say when describing their balance sheet as a "non-profit") is the PBC's "excess revenue over expenses."

Whatever we as fans want to see as far as team performance, the primary mission seems to be ensuring that there is plenty of excess revenue.

And with that I am going to go out for a bit...

Jose

9

emoneypitt wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 11:13 AM

I like Option #2 the best Cave. A lot of misery the last couple years but the team can only get better. Anyone who criticizes this team constantly can't deny that the farm system is much better than it was when Nutting and Co took over. Yes, there are still struggles on the major league club but some of the players on the current team show some real promise. At least some of those minor league players are going to come through. I think it's a slow climbing stock that is still going to take 2-3 to reach peak potential but it just might surprise and take off like a dot.com in the 90's.

Fire away short sellers!

Cave Bonifield wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 11:17 AM

Now I'll reveal the reason for my MADNESS

Starting next week, I AM TAKING THE PBC PUBLIC, in my own mind that is.  This is the best way for me to voice my opinion on events without slinging out a 1000 word diatribe.

We are to begin trading at $20.  I will give a closing quote each day based on my opinion of any events that have transpired which could materially change the value of the stock, includinG developments in the minor leagues.

As Hostage noted, the pricing will be based on a combination of PBC profitability and performance and THE ASYLUM'S COMMENTS.

Let the trading begin

CometLittlefield wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 11:17 AM

here's a situation that would require a suspension of disbelief and the assumption that what Neal and Frank say are the truth, they are pursuing a plan and they will spend the money when the time comes....

Instead of shilling out $15-$25MM per year on 1 year contracts to mid-upper tier players like Blalock, Atkins, Ankiel, etc., they save that money on an annual basis while the current roster develops.

Cutch, Pedro, Legend, Tabata, MIlledege all become above average to superstar Major League players and they are financially flexible enough to sign them all to 7 year, market-based contracts that buy out arbitration and 4 years of free agency and keep them in Pittsburgh on a winning team for many years.

Of course, we would never know that the money they DIDN'T spend on 1 year upper tier Free Agents stop gaps completely contritbute to those contracts, but assume that theat extra money allowed them to lock those guys up.

Will you be ok if they sacrificed the 2010 and maybe 2011 season to make that happen?

Discuss....

Bizrow wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 11:18 AM

Morining mates, good tidings

Its great to have DK and a real baseball article back in the PG.

Personally, I have no problem with the PBC not signing any one of significance this offseason, there is little difference between 95-99 losses this coming season, we already own the record for consecutive losing seasons, this year when we do it, it will get little mention, we'll have our usual trade deadline fire sale, and a note to prospective FA's who might be desperate enough to sign with us. - Don't buy a house, rent...  

My crystal ball (and guts) still say 2013 is the best we can hope for.

InZiskWeTrust wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 11:19 AM

Cave,

I'd go with #3. In the world of stocks, reality is hardly a factor. The fact that they have shaved payroll to the bone would get them a boost on Wall St., the acquisition of Iwwy, would get another little Pop and the fact that they still turned a profit makes them a very nice stock to watch in the near term with a pretty good long term outlook.

NuHo,

Once again, why overpay for marginal talent? There are some obvious exceptions, but for the most part, bullpens are usually the last place that any team will pay a premium for (minus closers of course).

The fact that Kartens is gone and Chewbaca is in his place at the same price that Karstens cost them last year is not an indication that the club is cheap, it is one that the management realizes that paying a 30% premium for someone to eat up a few innings is stupid.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 11:27 AM

Biz,

It's funny how that year when we can expect to see the NBC be competitive just keep getting pushed out further and further into the future.

In 2004 when they had crappy clubs and low payrolls the previous FO regime said to wait to 2008 - 2010 because the "core" would be competitive by then.

Except that Bob was unwilling to foot the bill to keep that club together and add to it the necessary pieces they needed to compete.

The day of competitiveness never came.

Now we point to 2013.

How much you want to bet that come 2013 we will be pining for 2018?

That's the way it is with the NBC.

The goal posts just keep getting pushed back further and further, year after year.

Bob gets his and the players and fans get stiffed.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 11:31 AM

Richie,

"The fact that Kartens is gone and Chewbaca is in his place at the same price that Karstens cost them last year is not an indication that the club is cheap, it is one that the management realizes that paying a 30% premium for someone to eat up a few innings is stupid."

First, again you exaggerate. Karstens is not a "30% premium". It is the going rate for major league talent.

Second, the roster machinations are just further proof that this clubs sole priority is profit, not winning.

It's not your money, so don't worry about it.

Just focus on the major league results. - That's all you as a baseball fan need to do.

InZiskWeTrust wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 11:40 AM

NuHo,

4-6, 5.42 ERA, 108 IP, 1.481 WHIP, 1.16 K/BB

6-7, 5.32 ERA, 93 IP, 1.269 WHIP, 1.74 K/BB

The top line is Karstens and the bottom line is Chewbaca's with the Mariners MLB team (not independent ball) last year. Which would you rather have?

MarkInDallas wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 11:45 AM

Drew said - 2) WHY should we assume every signing will be a Derek Bell?  Why can't they be a Reggie Sanders?  a Kenny Loften, a Jeff Suppan?

===================

If they get a chance to make a signing like the PIrates did with Reggie Sanders, then I'm sure they'll take it. But you have to look at what that really was.

Sanders was paid $1.8M with the Giants in 2002. He had 8.4 batting runs above average that year, meaning it was a pretty big dip in production from his 2001 season.

The best he could do was sign a 1 year deal with the Pirates for $1M, which was a pretty sizable drop in salary. He over produced that contract by a sizable amount, creating 24 batting runs.

The next year he signed a 2 year deal with the Cardinals for $6M. However, in 2003, his production dropped down to league average, and while he had a bounce back season the next year, he began to struggle with injuries and his games played went down, meaning they never really got the kind of production they were hoping for.

The following year the Royals to a chance that his injury worries would be over and signed him to a 2 year deal for $10M.

His production declined considerably in 2006 and after a 2007 injury, he was done.

============

So, you see that the Pirates actually took him as a free agent flyer who out performed his contract. The Cards and the Royals signed him as a "valuable free agent" expecting larger production and received less than the Pirates got.

This is what I mean when I noted that in 2009, no team in a market under 4M (like the Pirates, Cardinals and Royals) signed a free agent to a contract which was based on an above average level of production and had that player actually perform at that level.

You can see in the case of Reggie Sanders, this held true for his last 2 contracts from 2002 to 2007.

The question is - can Rick Ankiel or Khalil Greene be the Reggie Sanders of 2010 for the Pirates?

John Lease wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 11:46 AM

Zisk, neither.  We should be able to populate a long relief guy for minimal bucks from our own system.

But-if forced to choose, I'll take the dude from Seattle.

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 11:51 AM

Interesting thing about the Karstens talk is I do not remember much defense of him when he was on the team.  Also, I do remember complaints that they were dumping players from the old regime but sticking too long with new players to try to defend the trades but Karstens is one they traded for.

MarkInDallas wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 11:54 AM

- I meant to say last 3 contracts above, not 2.

pi-rat wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 11:54 AM

is that a wood stove, tongues of fire, or flames of hell I see? DK or Dante? doesn't look like the FO is out black friday FA shopping, and will resume alchemist spinning gold from cast-offs via The Plan. would be fun to see amazon put blalock or cabrera on gold box sale for 3 hours and see what they get.

we'll see what karsties, chavez, bullington do in greener fields. I wish all them well, and all of us suckas as well, including the FO as we lurch collectively toward ST.

PBC on the stock market? monopoly+profits vs poor street cred/marketability=russian oil company or n korean missel[toe] company

MarkInDallas wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 11:56 AM

JAL - Yeah, I don't really remember NutHo being a big Karstens fan. But I guess he was. Someone may have to go through the archives to see if we're misremembering.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 12:03 PM
NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 12:09 PM

Poor logic to think that one must be a fan of a player to recognize a salary dump.

JAL - I thought at least you were smarter than that.

Cajun Thunder wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 12:10 PM

The saddest part of all of this is not the fact this team is lacking talent...but that the management team is satisfied with the talent level on this team. You have a roster that wasn't capable of winning 1 of every 3 games over the last 2-3 months of the season...and a GM that thinks the talent on this team...which is basically unchanged...is just fine.

No wonder I have no confidence in the ability of the GM to assess the talent we got in trades or the draft.

Cajun Thunder wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 12:21 PM

Zisk...the short answer (and the correct one) to choosing between Karstens and Jakubauskas...is...neither. I'd prefer a pitcher that can actually get batters out...and prevent runs from scoring at a rate less than 4 runs per 9 innings...instead of pitchers that give up 5.5 runs.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 12:23 PM

Richie,

Given that Karstens is 26 and Eyechart is 30 and out of independent ball....and that Karstens spent a year with Dave Kerwin....

I would not have dumped Karstens just because he is approaching arbitration like the NBC did.

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 12:25 PM

Cave- I'm taking the semi-Nuthos view that unless significant changes are made to the back end of the bullpen,  I'm shorting the PBC, valuing it at $12-15 dollars a share until June 1st.   As of right now of course, but if they signed Brett Myers or Rodney from the Tigers, I'd value it at $17 prior to opening day.  Neil should try and model this Pirate team after the 1990 Reds.   Yes, Dibble, Charlton flamed out by 1993, but they did the job.

I'd also want an long option at $25 for July 17th.   I see Pedro hitting .275, 21 HR, 66 RBI in about 400 at-bats.  

Drew71 wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 12:28 PM

just stopped back in for a bit to change my avatar from picture of mrs drew.  wait for it.

Drew71 wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 12:30 PM

uh-oh, here she comes.  I'm gonna be in BIG TROUBLE if that black widow pic doesnt disappear. Fast!

MarkInDallas wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 12:31 PM

NutHo -

What I don't understand about you is that it seems you should be smart enough to realize that the Pirates are at a real disadvantage when it comes to payroll.

I mean, you must understand the logic of how the Pirates must compete for wins with high revenue teams, and it's not possible for the Pirates to compete on price with them, right?

If you do understand that, then it logically follows that the Pirates should not be paying someone more money if they can get that same production from someone they can pay less to.

Collectively, a good bullpen is very important and valuable, but individually, those players are not worth that much because there are so many similar players to choose from.

That's why any decent pitcher the Pirates might acquire, they are going to try them at starter to see is they can cut it there. That's where they are going to be most valuable. If they can't cut it as a starter, then they are going to see if there's a possible late inning role that might be good enough for, and if that doesn't work out, then they are going to be middle relief.

And if you are filler middle relief on the Pirates, you are not going to be paid in the millions of dollars. Period.

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 12:33 PM

Nuthos-  I'm on the fence about Releasing Karstens.   Part of me wants to set an example by rewarding guys for being team players (Karstens going to the bullpen).  Just not sure if I'd spend 2 million on him.  1 millon I think is would be a good idea, he does know how to pitch and he can be the 8th or the 9th guy (of 12) on a staff.  

The other part of me wondering who signs  Karstens.  He very well could be the Jeff Suppan type.  

I did like what I saw of Mariner games out of Chewy.  Just don't pitch him thru the lineup twice.    

Cave Bonifield wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 12:35 PM

WhyStan

Options won't begin trading until the season begins.

Trading in the stock will begin on Monday under the symbol

PIPS.

The IPO will be priced at $20.

Shares are not available to be borrowed so no shorting yet.  And don't try any of that naked shorting either.

Daily volume will be posted as the number of posts for the past day.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 12:37 PM

Drew,

"just stopped back in for a bit to change my avatar from picture of mrs drew.  wait for it."

YOU'RE IN BIG TROUBLE MISTER!

YOU'RE IN BIG TROUBLE MISTER!

;-)

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 12:39 PM

Why Stan,

Why do you think Karstens would get $1M in arbitration?

I think many folks here are grossly overestimating what he would be awarded.

21sthebest wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 12:46 PM

"I think many folks here are grossly overestimating what he would be awarded."

Then why do you think it's a salary dump?

Answer:  You don't.  It's just something to get attention by complaining.

21sthebest wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 12:48 PM

Let's examine this.

We DFA'd maybe our last relief pitcher, coming off a 5.42 ERA year, who was eligible for arbitration and he had the added bonus of being out of options.

Next topic, as far as I'm concerned.

Cave Bonifield wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 12:56 PM

Once the PBC signs a pricey free agent,  a precedent has been set. If this signing performs well and the team improves then that could justify the signing of more free agents.

The PBC doesn't want its fan base clamoring for more free agent signings.

They like the fan base just the way we are, that is,  arguing over whether or not Jeff Karstens is worth 1 mil.

Keep us divided and distracted.  That has worked up until now and has enabled ownership to get away with the travesty of not spending.

They have kept expectations low in the process,  which helps to propel their reasoning for unnecessary FA signings.

jersey joe wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 12:56 PM

So we signed Nate and said we hope he stays great and then we traded him as a surprise to everyone.

Now, some of you still do not get GM talk and they all talk the same.

The moment the Gm plays down a player is the moment his value paid for by another has taken a dip to zip.

You have to understand what to take at face value and what not to take as the real value.

If anyone in the FO is reading today, I am sure they are laughing also.

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 12:59 PM

Hostage

Smarter than what?  I never said it anything about salary dump--just that no defense  and complaints about dumping players who were on the team before and going to far with those they obtained.  Certainly salary was part of the decision as was the lack of options..

CometLittlefield wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 12:59 PM

I think Ankiel, Blalock, Cabrera, etc...are going to be difficult guys to assign value to...

particularly for 1yr+option contracts...

The Bid-Ask on them is going to be pretty wide and all it will take is one team willing to overpay to set the value.

So if they get offers of $5-7MM pretty tightly packed and 1 team offers $10MM who has the wherewithal to make that kind of potential mistake, the Pirates will look cheap yet again.

So Blalock trades @ $10MM with a cover bid of $6.8MM and 6 other bids $1.5MM away behind that. What's the real value?

There would be nothing appealing about coming to the PIrates for a Free Agent other than the most money and they are NOT going to overpay like I think at least 1 team will with these guys.

I like attributing market lingo to the Pirates...thanks Drew!

Drew71 wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 1:00 PM

Hos - yup!

and now for something completely different..HOW ABOUT A BASEBALL POST!

<<"No wonder I have no confidence in the ability of the GM to assess the talent we got in trades or the draft.">>

ok, here's where i disagree with just about EVERYBODY.

- lack of ability to assess trade talent: I see the point. i am concerned AND i am suprised that the optimists will almost never concede a point or two here.  problem with missed trades....unlike the draft that repeats every year, THERE ARE NO MORE ASSETS TO TRADE (almost).  

- lack of ability to assess draft talent: really???? i am suprised that the pessimists will almost never concede a point or two here.  Click on my avatar and go to my personal bio.  i did the MATH.  Before Aug 1, the combined record of PBC's minor league teams was under .470.  After the new picks came on, and coinsidentally some of the 08 picks started playing well, beginning August 1 the combined record of PBC's minor league teams was over .530.  No whiz-bang WAR times OPS minus ERA-on-Tuesdays plus defensive-range-factors-in-the-rain.  wins and losses, the items the pessimists say really count.

We are where we are.  Some good drafts.  a few good, some balanced and some poor trades.  Some mishits on international signings (or lack thereof).  But MUCH more financial flexibility.

I find myself in The Village...a no-man's land of neither optimism or pessimism.

I will move back to optimist if EITHER 1) Neal is right (and i'm wrong) and THIS TEAM is ready to start to show REAL improvement in 2010...OR...2) we USE the flexibility to bolster the team with additional established talent to support the younger/learning talent.

I will move forward to pessimism if by YE 2010 we do NEITHER...dont improve at MLB level or dont use the flexibility.  And the promise of how that flexibility will help in 2011, 2012, 2027 will no longer work.

We are where we are.  Better levels of young talent, but a bad team.  And lots of financial flexibility.  What decisions the FO makes now...and how those decisions play out...and how the team plays, will determine where i am at YE 2010.

Sorry for the long post, but one more comment.  At the risk of sounding arrogant, the FO ought to be reading this.  They cannot change the automatic-pessimists any easier than they can lose the automatic-optimists.  Those of us in the middle generally decide every 'election.'  And this election determines money spent and, EVEN MORE IMPORTANTLY:

WHETHER PEOPLE CARE.

So i'm calling out the optimists.  and i'm calling out the pessimists.  and mostly i'm calling out PBC.  Time to care.  Before we don't.  

Only one thing is forever and this ain't it.

G-Man wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 1:02 PM

Cave -

I would select #3 from your list.

But I'm not sure all the bad news is out there yet. Rule 5 draft is yet to come. If Pirates decide to pick someone - as they have each of the last two years - who will they drop from the 40-man? And how much will it hurt the club to carry that Rule 5 guy all year?

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 1:03 PM

JAL,

"Smarter than what?"

To follow the very poor logic that a fans liking or disliking of a player has anything to do with a clubs motivation on whether or not to maintain him on their 40 man roster.

Usually you are smarter than that.

Sec.143RowMSeat24 wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 1:03 PM

To play devil's advocate here while not trying to defend Neal Huntington, it would be very stupid to say that you have no talent and are desperate for someone, ANYONE!.  He may feel they don't need to upgrade.  If they were actually trying to win in 2010, that of course would be incorrect.  It is just smart when trying to go into a negotiation that it seems you are not dealing from a position of weakness.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 1:05 PM

Drew,

You are a man without a country.

Drew71 wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 1:05 PM

ok, call me crazy (many of you have), but look at the pic of Neal in today's story.  Put a red-black baseball cap on Neal.  Make him younger.  Make him smile.  Now look at the picture in today's Dejan Blog story of Matt Clement.  Eerie isnt it?  Same person?  Relative?

Does that explain something???

hmmm???

jersey joe wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 1:06 PM

GMAN,  that depends

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 1:08 PM

Drew,

To your baseball points, I think I pretty much agree with your assessments that the FO's trades have not brought nearly enough talent as they could have and that the drafts have been an improvement over Littlefields. - That said, I still think there is room for improvement with these drafts. I didn't like the reach down with the # 4 pick this season and I'd like to see at least 35 picks per year signed with a heavy emphasis on picks 1 through 25.

Accurate assessment on your part IMO and one I concur with.

John Lease wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 1:08 PM

I'm as goofy of a Pirate fan as possible.  And I find myself caring about them less and less, which I didn't think was possible.  I was riveted to each and every one of Jimmy Anderson's starts.

Now if I know it's that turd we got from the Cubs starting, I won't watch.  I never felt that way before.

Drew71 wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 1:11 PM

yes i am.

MarkInDallas wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 1:13 PM

Cave Bonifield said - Once the PBC signs a pricey free agent,  a precedent has been set. If this signing performs well and the team improves then that could justify the signing of more free agents. The PBC doesn't want its fan base clamoring for more free agent signings.

=============

Cave, I haven't done the research before 2009, so I don't know the answer to this, but can you think of a team in the bottom half of revenue that signed a pricey free agent that performed well for them?

I know in 2009, there wasn't one team that did it, but I haven't checked other years.

I don't think it's a question of the Pirates not wanting the fan base to clamor for free agent signings. Every team's fan base clamors for that. Whether it's realistic or the best way to go is another story.

Drew71 wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 1:14 PM

G-Man: you asked yesterday, how can the dogs be in control of the house with all i've posted re: mrs-you-know-who.

simple.

Dogs are in charge and the missus is their agent of destruction.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 1:18 PM

Drew,

"Dogs are in charge and the missus is their agent of destruction."

Dude, you have no chance.

;-)

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 1:21 PM

Personally, I don't think clubs like the Pirates can build a winner through free agency, but by the same token, a winner cannot be built by continually dumping arbitration and free agent eligible veterans for prospects and basing all roster decisions on cost.

Continued compromises of cost over quality will never result in a winner.

Never.

No matter how many words Mark puts in his posts suggesting otherwise.

Drew71 wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 1:23 PM

i just keep doing it to myself, don't i?

if "drew" becomes a verb, it will mean the same thing as what it rhymes with.  as in "once again, i drewed myself with that last post.  will i never learn?"

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 1:25 PM

I agree. You are totally "drewed".

;-)

CometLittlefield wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 1:30 PM

From my perspective, there is NO WAY for the Pirates to become a championship caliber team OTHER than the way they are going about it now and hoping that young players acquired via trades and the draft come together at roughly the same time....much like the current day Phillies.

If the casual baseball fans, pessimists and Nutting Conspiracy Theorists jump ship today and never watch a game or go to game or read a website about the PIrates, the team will endure some suffering, a drop in attendance, loss of revenue, etc...

But if the talent evaluation pans out and they become a championship caliber ball club - EVERYONE, including NuHo, Daquido, JosePagan, BFD, etc....will jump BACK on the bandwagon. Why because we love the Pirates. We always have and we always will.

When/if they are winners, you will all be back, revenue will be up, the team will be winning, Nutting will be making profits, PNC Park will sold out and all will be right with the World.

And since signing free-agents and keeping Jason Bay into his 30s would never ever ever make that happen, and the current course is the ONLY way for that to happen....the Pirates are right to take that gamble that a sector of fans would walk out on the team in the midst of an 18th losing season.

Winning will cure EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING! They know that and they know that the post 2007 apocoplypse was the only way to ATTEMPT to do that. The talent evaluation MUST be right.

It's that simple....

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 1:31 PM

Hostage

perhaps I wasn't clear--I was just referring to today's posts.  Never meant fans thoughts had anything to do with the decision.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 1:48 PM

Comet,

"From my perspective, there is NO WAY for the Pirates to become a championship caliber team OTHER than the way they are going about it now and hoping that young players acquired via trades and the draft come together at roughly the same time...."

Dude, the only "way" this FO has demonstrated is to turnover and trade away talent once it developed for prospects. - That is their demonstrated "way".

I don't see how AAA players posting .385 records will ever translate into a winner.

A Bob Nutting lead or owned club has NEVER retained good players long enough, or accumulated enough of them to be a competitive club.

That is the "way" it is.

jersey joe wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 1:51 PM

there once was a young lad named drew

it seems today you just might be through

while jumping off the fence

you can save six pence

to find out if you are red or white or blue

www.youtube.com/watch

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 1:56 PM

JAL,

I don't know how else to interpret this statement but whatever....

"Interesting thing about the Karstens talk is I do not remember much defense of him when he was on the team."

CometLittlefield wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 1:59 PM

NuHo -

The talent they had that they traded away wasn't good enough to be a championship caliber team. I think McLouth, Bay, Nady, Marte, Sanchez, Wilson, etc. proved that after they were traded.

- McLouth performed at his post May 2008 levels all season,

- Bay was eventually dropped to the 7 spot on the Sox and hit .250 and is now looking for a $17MM payday

- Yankees brought in Swisher as competition for Nady, who promptly got injured for the season.

- you know how bad Marte has done

- Freddy was injured and hovered around .290 for the Giants.

- Jack Wilson hit .220 for the Mariners

If the Pirates had kept all of them and they had those performances, we would be looking at possibly the same current record, given we wouldn't have Oehlendorf or Morton to SOMEWHAT stabilize the starting pitching.

The talent they did have was just simply not good enough and as you admitted signing Free Agents like the Yankees do is a not a viable or realistic path for team with a market size like the Pirates to take, hoping young players acquired through trades and the draft have been properly evaluated will eventually gel together into a winning team....like the current Phillies.

radio wave wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:00 PM

Good black Friday inmates near and far.

Drew: At least Mrs. Drew and the dogs haven't made you camp out at a shopping mall since Wednesday like those other idiots on TV.

As far as baseball; nice to have DK back.

The fact that Bixler still appears on the 3 spot at 2b angers me. Get rid of him, and bring Diaz back to the 40 man. Move ryan to either first or right field, give the other position to the Legend and move on from there. Open a revolving door for all the bullpen candidates you can find for St. The list for that relief corps was absolutely scary.

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:01 PM

Hostage

As I said, I wasn't clear--I meant the posters on the web are defending him more now than they did when he was on the team.

MarkInDallas wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:01 PM

NutHo said - Continued compromises of cost over quality will never result in a winner. No matter how many words Mark puts in his posts suggesting otherwise.

=========

I agree with you there, and hopefully I haven't ever implied that you could continually sacrifice quality for lower cost and produce a winner.

The message I am putting forth is that the Pirates cannot pay market rates for most of their production and expect to produce a winner.

They have to find ways to pay less for more value, and the only way to do that is through developing prospects and free agent flyers.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:06 PM

Comet,

"The talent they had that they traded away wasn't good enough to be a championship caliber team."

That's not true.

The talent they had was not responsibly supported with enough depth. They had a core of good players that did not have sufficient support around it as evidenced by it's low payroll. The Bay, McLouth, Wilson, Sanchez, McLouth core never had more than the 3rd lowest payroll in the game around it and supporting it.

Neal came here and in two off seasons did little to improve them from one season to the next, and if anything began pecking away by dumping Torres, etc.

They theory that that core wasn't good enough is completely baloney.

We'll never know......because Bob never gave them enough support or a real chance.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it is going to be impossible for the NBC to ever win with a pa

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:12 PM

Comet,

I hit add before I fnished my thought...

The chances of the NBC ever fielding a competitive club with  a $30M or $40M payroll is one in a million.

If you think any core with that kind of depth around will be competitive, I think you are going to be disappointed come 2013, 2014, 2015 or whatever year it is we are looking at now.

BaseballFan wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:13 PM

NuttingHostage - yes

Isn't it great how Huntington "really like(s) a lot of the options that we have going into next year".  I guess they're "set" again since no free agent would help them win more games after a 99 loss season.  Russell really liked a lot of the players from that 2009 last place team too.  Aren't these guys supposed to be great player evaluators?  

Huntington also denied shopping anyone - sound familiar Dejan? (Piratefest denials)

"The Pirates had been linked in international reports to 37-year-old Japanese reliever Riyota Igarashi, but those greatly multiplied the team's actual interest."

Wasn't it the team site who was talking up the Pirates getting Japanese players?  

I guess Huntington thinks Carlos Garcia can get more out of Cedeno than Perry Hill did?  Was signing Kim and Gomez to major leage deals not spending money "just to say we did it"?

CometLittlefield wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:14 PM

NuHo -

Those guys were not a core...they WERE the supporting players....

This team had exactly ZERO of these guys:

Chase Utley, Ryan Howard, Alex Rodiquez, derek Jeter, Evan Longoria, Jayson Werth, Cliff Lee, Cole Hamels, CC Sabathia, Mark Texeria, Jimmy Rollins, Carlos Pena, Raul Ibanez, Albert Pujols, Cris Carpenter, etc....

ZERO

This was the type of talent that was on the World Series participants the last 2 years.

G-Man wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:16 PM

Drew71 -

>>Dogs are in charge and the missus is their agent of destruction.<<

Hire me to provide you with new avatars and passport and you may just be able to escape through the super secret Asylum tunnel.

CometLittlefield wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:17 PM

...and a good bit of that Non-Yankee talent was home grown or acquired as free agent flyers on the cheap

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:18 PM

BaseballFan,

Great to see you again! - How are you feeling these days?

Hope you become a regular here.

Yes, it's the beginning of a full new year of nonsensical spin from Frank and Neal again and I hope I can count on your help pointing it out each and every time we see it. - They talk themselves in circles and contradict themselves just about everytime they open their mouths.

Hope you are doing well.

Drew71 wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:20 PM

JJ - nice rhyme but i'm actually ON the fence waiting for 2010 season's end to determine on which side of the fence i will fall.  So i have taken the liberty of writing a different rhyme:

there once was an idjit named drew

he's set expectations of what the Pirates must do

he sits on the fence

yes, he may be dense

but PBC must improve or he's blue

G-Man wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:24 PM

Comet -

>>Those guys were not a core...they WERE the supporting players<<

Excellent opinion and one similar to feelings I've had/wondered.

But, there's the other side of the coin that some of them could have and should have been retained.

I agree with what someone said earlier today: there's no or minimal veteran leadership on the team and that puts a lot of pressure on guys like McCutchen, Doumit, Duke, Maholm and Ohlendorf during the next couple of years.

Perfect illustration of that was the endless shuffling of 3-4-5 hitters in the lineup. No one has been added that changes that.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:24 PM

Comet,

"Chase Utley, Ryan Howard, Alex Rodiquez, derek Jeter, Evan Longoria, Jayson Werth, Cliff Lee, Cole Hamels, CC Sabathia, Mark Texeria, Jimmy Rollins, Carlos Pena, Raul Ibanez, Albert Pujols, Cris Carpenter"

Well guess what. Other than possibly Alvarez, they don't have anyone near those kinds of players and have never demonstrated a desire to spend what it takes to acquire or retain those kinds of players so with a core built of depth, or a several superstar kinds of players....you can expect the same result.

No winning.

I disagree with you by the way that a collection of good above average players that compliment one anothers skills, strengths, and weaknesses, cannot be competitive.

Just look at the 2008 Tampa Rays. - They did it.

The NBC has done neither.

Instead they just churned talent as it becomes expensive.

That is their "way".

That will never result in a competitive club.

Drew71 wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:25 PM

well, well, well.  i think G-Man is a (sing) Secret Aaaayyygent Man.

G - i may just come up with the sheckels and hire you, but only if the tunnel takes me to a place where i can meet some of your avatar subjects.

G-Man wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:28 PM

Drew71 -

>>if the tunnel takes me to a place where i can meet some of your avatar subjects.<<

If the tunnel took one to a place like that, do you think I'd be spending my time on this blog?

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:29 PM

Drew,

Please do me a favor.

Please do not refer to the NBC as the "PBC".

This abomination lead by Bob Nutting, Frank Coonelly, and Neal Huntington should not be a reflection upon the City of Pittsburgh or the institution known as the Pittsburgh Pirates.

They days of Nutting, Coonelly, and Huntington are simply a relatively brief, dark period of a 100 + yr old institution and like all bad things will one day pass.

For now, please refer to them simply as the NBC (Nutting Baseball Club) because that is what they currently represent. Let him put his name in front of this mess for as long as it lasts, not the names of Pittsburgh or the Pirates.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

joshuaroadrunner513 wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:33 PM

Is it me or does opie sound like littlefield when he speaks. its the same old bs we keep hereing over and over wish i could find the littlefield article from offseason when he said the same things about standing pat with our current roster. there must be a pirates general manager instruction manual that tells them to say this crap. instaed of financial flexibility lets just say. we need the money and don't want to spend it.

BUCCS72 wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:37 PM

I'm not surprised at all that Neal is satisfied with his team's options.  So far he's been a hero to his boss turning big profits hands over fist in his two plus years as GM.  Why not continue to drive the payroll down when you are guaranteed $80 Million before you sell your 1.5 Million tickets no matter what your major league team's record turns out to be???

But for the baseball questions.....the Karstens deal is really not worth worrying about and despite thinking that just about every deal the Pirates make is rooted in saving money, including this one....I actually agree with it.  Why pay Karstens arbitration money when you can plug in another warm body for minimum wage with nearly the same results?  Makes sense to me.  

But what all of us should be debating is why Neal isn't ringing Garret Atkin's agent's phone off the hook trying to sign his client...what with all of the "financial flexibility" the PBC now has with their projected $31 Million payroll.  If Neal was really trying to place a compettiive lineup on the field next year.....wouldn't Atkins' 25-30 HR's and 90-100 RBI at 3B be worth the extra $5 Million or so over the $$ they will pay Andy LaRoche for his 10-15 HR's and 50-60 RBI's???  That is if you are really trying to field a competitive team???  

Of course, us non Nutting apologists know what the answer will be to that one...the Pirates can't win anyway even with Atkins so why spend the money...right Nutting apologists???  That will just be another $2-$3 Million in Bobby's Seven Springs bailout or his daughter's retirement account, or....anywhere but in the major league product in 2010....or 2011...or 2012...or 2013....

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:43 PM

And for fans of winning sporting organizations.....

Malkin just scored the most ridiculous goal you will ever see on a backhand through the slimest opening you could imagine.

Maybe the Pens should trade him for depth in Wilkes Barre?

LLOYD Be Free wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:44 PM

HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

Although there was some good info put on here while I was gone today, I can't believe all the Karstens talk.  What a waste of time.

I'd like to ask one question on that subject......actually I'll make it as a statement......there is not 1 GM, asst. GM, special assistant to the GM or any club executive that would keep a player with worse stats in 2009, no options left as opposed to the other, hitting arbitration while the other isn't, have scouting reports that say his stuff isn't better and may not be as good as the other and has no track record of success to wish he'd get back to.  Not 1.  THAT MEANS ZERO would choose the option  that NutHo would and people still let him lead them.

Mark, Comet and others, please quit wasting your time on this guy!  It's ashame because he does add some value to certain discussions but this crazy stuff just invalidates all of it.

LLOYD

joshuaroadrunner513 wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:47 PM

there are no apoligies for the way this team is run. its a culture change of making profits or nothing more nothing less. the product is of no concern even with the second pick next year we still will draft a number 1 based on money.alvarez was just used as a freek moment done by the organization just to make it loook good. just remember alvarez will make over leauge minny when he comes up so if he plays well he will get shipped off along with mccutcheon. ITS all Abou the proffit here.

LLOYD Be Free wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:48 PM

I take it all back.....he just reminded me that the Pens game is on.

Drew71 wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:51 PM

The Phillies did it all with home grown talent or acquired prospects?  Hmmm.

Again, here i sit on the fence.

Much of the Phils' core was in fact from homegrown talent or acquired prospects, and imo the pessimists would be misrepresentin' to say otherwise.

However, the optimists would be misrepresentin' to not acknowledge that the Phils took major steps forward in 08 and solidified in 09 by supplementing their core with some key FA acquisitions:

- On December 16, 2008, Raul Ibanez signed a 3-year, $31.5 million deal with the Philadelphia Phillies

-  Chan Ho Park officially signed a one-year contract to join the Phillies on January 6, 2009

- The "Other" Pedro: On july 15, 2009, Martinez inked a 1-year deal with the Phillies

- They also RETAINED their own players, including extensions for Ryan Howard, Jamie Moyer and Scott Eyre.

So here i sit on the fence, saying, OK, do it like the Phillies.  Most of core from prospects.  i AGREE with the optimists that this is the likely path of success for PBC.  But i DISAGREE if they advocate that The Plan does not allow Phillie-like acquisitions and re-signings to supplement the talent.  i AGREE with the pessimists that PBC should use its financial flexibility to improve the MLB product and not just with past-prime wannabe's.  i DISAGREE with them when they call all the prospect acquisitiion trades salary dumps.

Fence is gettin' lonely.  and the fence post is killing me.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:53 PM

And for you golf fans...

Tiger Woods was seriously injured in a car accident near his home in Florida.

Appears alchohol may have been involved.

www.chicagotribune.com/.../os-bk-tiger-woods-accident,0,7254095.story

MarkInDallas wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:57 PM

NutHo said - Well guess what. Other than possibly Alvarez, they don't have anyone near those kinds of players and have never demonstrated a desire to spend what it takes to acquire or retain those kinds of players

==============

Most of those players were drafted by the teams they played the World Series with, and Carpenter was a free agent flyer.

All the position players he listed except Jimmy Rollins were 4+ WAR players in 2009.

None of the players we traded away in the last 2 years were 4+ WAR players in 2009.

Andrew McCutchen and Garret Jones would both have been 5 WAR players if they had produced as they did over a full season.

This would have made them tied with Matt Kemp as the 24th most valuable players in the league.

Nate McLouth was the 59th most valuable position player in MLB.

Jason Bay was 62nd.

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 2:57 PM

Hostage

Odd story--How did the "seriously injured"  when nothing in the story says anything about injuries?

JosePagan wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 3:00 PM

@ Lloyd: Karstens is not critical element, I agree. What is important there is that Karstens is one more example of churning "talent" in the never-ending search for lightning in a bottle.

No, I was not a Karstens supporter. I am perplexed though that the NBC would give up on Karstens at age 26 and take their chances on Jakubauskas, who is approaching 31. it would seem that Karstens would have more upside - or at least some time left to develop same to see if he is the guy that won his first two starts with the Pirates in 2008 (anyone remember the 7 innings of perfect game?) or the guy who was moved to the bullpen.

Jose

10

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 3:01 PM

JAL,

Check out the Fox headline....

www.foxnews.com/.../0,2933,577325,00.html

Supposedly in serious condition....

Drew71 wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 3:01 PM

G: <<If the tunnel took one to a place like that, do you think I'd be spending my time on this blog?>>  BEST POINT MADE ALL DAY.  by ANYONE.

Hos - Nope.  Still PBE to me.  On the fence, not ove it yet.  Many of the moves, as i've posted today, i agree with or understand.  what they do at the MLB level THIS year, and what they do with the financial flexibility, will determine my judgment.  Earlier this year, you seemed to be satisfied at least with my consistency when i said my goalposts will not move back beyond season end 2010 even if there are more trades or tactical changes.  I hope you'll respect that for similar reasons, i won't move my goalposts FORWARD to now.  Still PBC to me.  i hope they stay that way to me.  Goalposts don't move in either direction, so let's talk in September.  (in September let's talk about THIS.  of course we'll have many other mrs-you-know-who discussions along the way.)

MarkInDallas wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 3:02 PM

JAL - "Tiger Woods has been seriously injured in a car wreck in Florida, authorities said Friday."

from ESPN.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 3:06 PM

Mark,

"Most of those players were drafted by the teams they played the World Series with"

If by "most' you mean less than half of them, then sure.

8 of the 15 names Comet listed and you falsely claims were drafted by the clubs they played in the WS, actually were not.

A-Rod, Werth, Lee, Sabathia, Texeira, Pena, Ibanez, and Carpenter all started their careers with other clubs.

But hey, don't let facts get in the way of a good story of make believe bull crap.

LLOYD Be Free wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 3:09 PM

Doesn't mention alcohol either in that article on Tiger.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 3:10 PM

JAL,

"Tiger Woods Seriously Injured in Car Crash in Florida

Friday, November 27, 2009  - Golf great Tiger Woods was seriously injured in a car accident in Florida early Friday morning, according to MyFoxOrlando.com."

www.foxnews.com

"Authorities: Tiger Woods Seriously Hurt in Crash"

www.abcnews.go.com

Any other questions?

JosePagan wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 3:11 PM

www.orlandosentinel.com/.../os-bk-tiger-woods-accident,0,1369881.story

JAL: This article states he (Woods) was transported "in serious condition." No further details at the moment.

Jose

11

radio wave wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 3:12 PM

JAL: I can verify what Nutting Hostage posted about Tiger Woods. XM radio is also reporting the story. Police say at 2:30 a.m., he backed out of his driveway, hit a tree and fire hydrant. Injuries reported as serius.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 3:14 PM

JAL,

"Report: Tiger Woods in serious condition after car crash"

www.kansascity.com

Also, msot of the web reports indicate the accident is "under investigation".

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 3:16 PM

JAL,

"How did the "seriously injured"  when nothing in the story says anything about injuries?"

To answer your question, about two dozen websites and several news stations are reporting it as such.

Why do you ask?

LLOYD Be Free wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 3:17 PM

Jose,

I vividly remember that outing by Karstens....I was texting every one of the baseball people I know to let them know it was happening.  

And my son played guitar hero with him at PirateFest this year.

I like the guy and probably woulda picked someone else on the 40 to drop.

But the comparison of these 2 pitchers alone.....it's ridiculous for it to make an uproar and sorry, but every team woulda chose Jukabee.

As far as lightening in a bottle....maybe they are looking a bit too much for it, but they sure aren't the only team.

LLOYD

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 3:18 PM

JAL,

"Most" of the web sites are listing Tiger Woods injuries as being "serious".

"Most" of the players Mark and Comet say originated with the clubs they played in the WS did not.

I know how important accuracy is to you so I thought I might point that out to you old buddy.

uglyken wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 3:19 PM

Good afternoon inmates. I hope everyone had a pleasant Thanksgiving. It’s kind of fitting…. now that the heat from our Thanksgiving Day kitchens are cooling off, that it is time to begin the hot stove baseball discussions. I would appear that I really haven’t missed very much over the past few months…..the discussion here is basically the same as it was when I excused myself from the table last summer. Actually, I would have been shocked (and probably disappointed) if the Asylum had significantly changed. However, I do see that a few new faces have received their strait-jackets (ex lurkers perhaps), yet many of my favorite faces from the past are still around….stirring the pot.

Hostage, did ya get Yogi or Boo Boo yet, and what about Bambi (I assume he’s a goner on Monday?  Anyway, I’m a little surprised to see you here today.

Drew71 wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 3:20 PM

From a local news source down here:

- A source said Tiger has been treated for facial lacerations.

- Woods was the driver, lost control, hit fire hydrant and tree near his home after 2 AM

- crash is being investigated...apparently NOT alcohol related despite earlier reports.

- Airbag did NOT deploy which means most likely driving under 33 MPH

- source said that charges are pending, but it would be pure speculation as to what for.  

JAL - none of these are quotes from story re copyright laws.  

All - None of these are sourced quotes so could be wrong on any/all aspects

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 3:22 PM

Jose,

I think a great question is, why on gods green earth the NBC still has Brian Bixler on it's 40 man roster instead of Robinson Diaz or Jeff Karstens?

JAL, I hope I worded that in a manner that is OK with you.

Drew71 wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 3:23 PM

UGLY KEN!  and my FAVORITE avatar.  Yes, same discussion as July 23rd to be exact.  word for word.  But that's what makes us so lovable.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 3:23 PM

Ken,

No bear.

1 doe so far this year, but I leave tomorrow morning hoping to fill my buck tag and 1 or 2 of my remaining doe tags next week.

Thanks for asking.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 3:25 PM

Drew,

At least two websites have indicated the accident remains under investigated and that are charges are pending.

Drew71 wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 3:26 PM

UGLY KEN!  and my FAVORITE avatar.  Yes, same discussion as July 23rd to be exact.  word for word.  But that's what makes us so lovable.

uglyken wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 3:28 PM

I would say that any injury that causes Tiger to miss this next big tournament would be considered serious. Same as any elbow injury to a pitcher heading into the World Series, or Quarterback in the Superbowl. His injury may be serious, yet not at all life threatening.

Drew71 wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 3:28 PM

UGLY KEN!  and my FAVORITE ava.....OH NO!! I'M CAUGHT IN AN ASYLUM TIME WARP!!...tar.  Yes, same discussion as July 23rd to be exact.  word for word.  But that's what makes us so lovable.

G-Man wrote re: Morning links: A stove rekindled
on Fri, Nov 27 2009 3:31 PM

Ken -

Great to see you back. Yes, nothing has changed here except my off-season avatars.

NuHos -

Interesting that you would chose the acronym "NBC." How would you compare the team to the 10 o'clock Jay Leno experiment?  ;-)