McCutchen, Jones follow Morris, Benson in Pirates history

I'll take our two guys over the others any day.

But I have a question, Chuck, is this comparison to Morris/Benson supposed to make us feel good or bad or what?

Firsties, maybe.

Why does this matter ? Next year when these guys are both hitting .187 in September and the Pirates have already lost 124 games will anyone remember this ? This team has NO TALENT OF ANY KIND, ANYWHERE AND NEVER WILL. They will never never never ever again break .500. Guaranteed.

Basball do something smart and either move or contract this franchise

Radio,

From the other thread, there has been some talk about breaking up the team to better utilize their payroll.

What I don't understand is, they act like they are the PBC but this is the 4th largest city in the US! You'd think that they'd be able to draw enough to keep up their payroll.

Gee, does anyone think someone has issues?  Lloyd--tell this poster to go to the Demery-Arriba Wilver-and anyone else you (Lloyd) don't like blog.

Arriba -

From previous thread:

>>Anyhow, no one seems to ever complain about JLH.  I do suspect she and the growed up Stephanie may have the same doctor, however.<<

LOL at your whole post comparing your "all-grown-up-Stephanie" avatar to my JLH. I remember vividly the night you used that avatar and you took a lot of heat. I guessed it was because everyone remembered her as an eleven-year-old.

So far as my JLH avatar, I went to great pains to find and use one where she was the most covered up. Srsly.

I had never watched her show "Ghost Whisperer" until a couple Fridays ago. After seeing her outfits on the show, I was reminded of that classic western series, Big Valley.

@G-Man - "After seeing her (JLH) outfits on the show, I was reminded of that classic western series, Big Valley."

I think Barbara Stanwyck just rolled over in her grave!

DMac & Cheese -

From previous thread:

I read your reply that you were going to keep out of the way between me and PoH (over my Doumit-Pronger trade rumor).

Nice to know my friends have my back. ;-)

Yes, that's quite a cautionary tale.

Ya think this year's NL candidates are a little bit stronger than in '99? Preston Wilson was the only one of that lot that did much of anything after that year. I can see many of this year's crop as stars into the future.

G-man...Umm...we're talking about PoH here.  I've got your back with pretty much anyone else.  :-)

G-Man--"Big Valley"---I'm still laughing!

I was trying to figure out for the longest time who that was in your avatar, but for some reason I couldn't focus on her face.

It would be nice if a Pirate won ROY. And I am in the camp that feels Pirate players don't get much attention by/from the national media. But I would not have expected a Florida player to be all that high on the radar, either.

DMac -

>>we're talking about PoH here. I've got your back with pretty much anyone else.<<

Hard to argue with you on that. Okay, you're redeemed. :-)

Uh Oh, time to change the subject.  So, who do you think will be ROY candidates next year?

Arriba -

>>I was trying to figure out for the longest time who that was in your avatar, but for some reason I couldn't focus on her face.<<

Yeah, I have attention span issues like that myself. Well, maybe not attentions span. More like a problem focusing.

Speaking of avatars, who is yours? It looks like some ensemble cast but I can't make them up when I zoom in with the browser.

Next year's ROY? I really don't know what the other clubs have in AAA. So far as Pirates, is Pedro going to make the jump to Pittsburgh in time for it to matter?

He seems like the only Pirate player with the pedigree. Of course, who could have predicted Jones?

In case anyone is interested, Demery and me are debating who will be the WROY  candidates next year on our alternate site.  (The W stands for "Worst")  Right now, it appears that the jury's out until the PBC decides who their rookies will be.

                     Hear Ye Hear Ye Hear Ye

                     Gathering  Announcement

                       December 5 Noon Time

   The Double Wide Grille 2339 East Carson Street

                             Special Guest

                               Lou DePaoli

Executive Vice President and Director Of Media Marketing

                        Pittsburgh Pirates

 Another limited space location RSVP seat required

                  RSVP to  tjfran@comcast.net

                     Accepting emailed question

If Pedro comes up, he's the obvious choice, but I don't know if he'll be up before June, so he sort of is in the same spot AMac this season.

G-Man--in deference to the flak I was receiving about Stephanie all growed up I changed to a group photo of Stephanie all growed up with Jesse, Danny, Rebecca and Joey at the roast for Bob Saget last year.  It was my passive-aggressive response to my new BFF's (according to the thought police here) NuHo's criticism.

If Jose Tabata moves up and hits the ball the way he has been hitting it, he is a lock.

Arriba -

>>Right now, it appears that the jury's out until the PBC decides who their rookies will be.<<

Baiting the trap, are we?  ;-)

As exciting a season that the clutch had, I think bad to the bones really had more impressive numbers.

Arriba -

Now that I know who it is, I recognize most of them.

So far as you and NuHos being BFF's: I had been thinking that you, he, Demery and ron d were all the same person posting under different names.

G-Man--just having some fun  with some of the people who have throwing some barbs my way lately.  ;-)

Well, I need to go get some beauty sleep. Besides, I just got an alert from NORAD that PoH's Hum V is nearing Richmond looking for retribution for my Doumit-Pronger trade comment. Hiding under the bed is the only safe place.

Since Jones didn't come up until July, I am not surprised he didn't get more votes.  If he had been brought up a little earlier, I think he would have had a better chance.

G-Man---I forgot a "been" (now I know how JAL forgets the "nots")  I miss ron d, who used to drive me crazy.  He had some great putdowns for the true trolls.

G-man...for the record, I didn't say a word to her about that remark.  Have a good one. :-)

Baseball Prospectus - NL ROY

www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php

I was shocked coglin beat out happ. not like pitchers grow on trees. but like arriba, I'm just fine with our two ROY boys. I remember the year that bay was ROY and all the media was abuzz that khalil green was passed over...just shows to go ya.

I'll be even happier when both are fixtures in our playoff team.

I want to turn serious for a second here.  I understand "free speech" as a constitutional issue is limited to the federal government not making any laws abridging freedom of speech.  However, there is also nothing in the constitution that says that you are innocent until proven guilty.  We do have a culture, though, that accepts freedom of speech and innocent until proven guilty as the norm.  Certainly as it relates to the internet and blogs like this, the ideal is a freedom of expression, regardless of the content of the expression.  I was disappointed over the weekend that I was the only one who spoke out against Lloydbefree's unsolicited and uncalled for attack on Demery44 that he wish he would not post anymore.  Certainly Lloyd has the same right to express that sentiment as others do to condemn that sentiment. However, I was very disappointed that I was the only one who condemned that sentiment.  Regardless of what you think of anyone's views, how dare you silently accept an attack like that on a fellow longterm blogger.  A lot of what we do here is police ourselves.  I don't accept lloydbefree, or anyone with like views in terms of the content of any poster's post, as a sheriff for this blog.  It's one thing to criticize the content of any post or series of posts;  it's quite another to tell someone to leave.

I commented on that too AW

baseballfan---sorry, I must have missed it since you didn't have an avatar at the time.  ;-)

I see the second shift is a little quieter than the morning blog.Must be something in the water.

@Arriba,

I tend to skim posts and ignore certain writers (and posts that respond to them) so I missed the post you referred to.

In theory I agree with your position though I find it harder to support in execution. Certain posters are very bothersome because they post the same comments over and over regardless of what is being debated. Yes, everyone has the right to post their views here, but I want to read interesting and thoughtful posts, not boring and repetitious diatribes.

CA Pirate -Amen.You must be looking over my shoulder.I realize the Bucs haven't been good,but  boring and repetitious diatribes sums it up.As far as the avatars I change mine a lot,but I also see certain avatars and I automatically skim over just to save time.

CA Pirate--thanks for the thoughtful response.  I'm just throwing my views out there, which can be accepted, rejected or ignored/skipped.  Just to add a postscript, though, I agree that certain posters can be bothersome, repetitive, etc.  I don't think that is the exclusive perview of anti-FO posters however.Just from my point of view, though, I think there is a decided bias against repetitive posts from posters who are perceived as anti-FO and there is not the same scrutiny or negativity against posters who are perceived as pro-FO.  Regardless of anti or pro, though, my point stands, criticize the post or series of posts, but to suggest that someone quit posting is beyond the bounds of acceptable conduct.  Do you disagree with that?

DMAC,  This is repeat information addative.  Back when there were on 16 teams my Dad use to tell me not to get too excited over any player until he has been seen three times by each team.  With the outburst of teams in the league that really doesn not happen much anymore.

Jones kinda made the rounds somewhat and what i like about him is that as teams have adjusted after seeing him, he has adjusted to thier adjustments and still hit the ball.

It seems that it was either the high inside or low inside pitch he had some trouble with, it will be interesting to see with him what transpires next season ?

With all this wonderment about the infiled with who might come and will will go and what will we do til then I think it boils down to this :  If Pedro comes up next year at a time when both Andy and the new guy are playing top notch ball, my expectations are we keep em all unless we get even more top notch return with prospects or we improve the major league team.

Since we have not seen Andy play a lick at second who knows how he could do ?  I am not convinced he has the second third fourth and fifth step speed for the position.

My guess he is somewheres between DY and the new guy.

Up above to correct my typing and thinking it should have been :  only,    does happen,  and you can guess the typing ones.

Zisk, from previous thread:

"I am in no way claiming that Morton will have a career even remotely resembling this guy. What I am trying to show is that even great pitchers have to learn how to pitch. That usually doesn't come immediately especially the talent they are actually pitching against."

________________________________________________

Tell ya'what, for every HOF pitcher you show me who learned "how to pitch", I'll show you 10 guys who didn't.

For every pitcher who had 5 bad years, followed by some great ones, I'll show you 10 who had 5 bad years, followed by more bad years.

That's the problem with you FO zombies - you turn over every stone, but you ignore the boulder which says 62-99.

Judged by the only statistic which matters, Pittsburgh W's and L's, this team is WORSE than it was before FC and NH took over.

Maybe someday it will be better. Let's hope. But right now, it is worse.

And I don't care about Lynchburg, downwards planes, high-upsides, prospects, WHIP's, OPS's and etc. I care about W's and L's, in Pittsburgh.

I know - it makes for depressing blogging to blog the bottom-line, day after day.

Even a blind squirrel finds the occasional nut, so someday Opie will hit it big in one of his trades. Let's hope it makes a difference in the W column.

George, do you have anything original to say ?  you can not get through a post without childish name calling so as my grandpap use to ask, does that make you feel better ?

Zisky,  maybe if you had used more proper English like saying every pitcher has to learn how to pitch George may just have layed off name calling.

Heck, read the Sandy Koufax story, he was almost given up on.

For every pitcher who came out of little league knowing how to pitch in the majors I will show you thousands who never did, what is the point of ridiculesness.

George from your logic, it would only make sense that you would forget what Steve Blass did because he lost it ?

Show me one zombie that did not get the record and what it means ?

Funny how every time anyone here asks who are you name calling people calling names and produce the evidence that would provide some proof, like who here does not understand what that record meant, it has went unanswered.

For me, Like I said the other day, the day this FO came to being I knew we had a bad team.  I knew we were a lot more than a couple of players away from a respectable team.

I knew we needed to replace every everyday player because of ability or attitude.

I really do not follow the money so I just do not whine about that, but it has been reported enough times enough places that every squirrel knows the way this team had to be rebuilt, ignoring that is leaving you with the understanding of less than the empty nut shell of the said bush tail.

Improving the team any other way was not going to happen and could not happen, even name calling can not change that.

HMMMM-No morning Links thread-OK Guess i will put them here

Pittsburgh Pirates' Andrew McCutchen, Garrett Jones not among top 3 in NL Rookie of the Year voting

www.examiner.com/x-6781-Pittsburgh-Pirates-Examiner~y2009m11d16-Pittsburgh-Pirates-Andrew-McCutchen-Garrett-Jones-not-among-top-3-in-NL-Rookie-of-the-Year-voting

Fantasy baseball: early Arizona Fall League observations

www.kffl.com/.../fantasy-baseball-arizona-fall-league-prospects

Blog ate my morning blog links--such is life

George -

Agree completely buddy.

JJ -

You seem to be the one attacking George (again)

The truth came out behind your motives/reasoning over the weekend when you flipped out.  According to you, the FO is following YOUR plan.  This is why you agree with everything they do.  Never mind the fact that YOUR plan produced a .200 winning percentage.  

It is what it is right now JJ..........a terrible team, with a terrible track record, with very positive to look forward to in the near future.

On another note, I have to believe that Cutch was hurt by being associated with the Pirates in the Rookie voting.  Any thoughts?

JAL - What?... Limited links?... How will I get through my morning coffee?  Now I'll have to read real news and THAT is depressing.

Funny moment today: JJ correcting someone's English...sorry, no offense but just couldn't escape the irony in that!

In re: Arriba's earlier note - I second that emotion.

In re: ROY - Who cares? I mean, what difference does it make? Would AMac or Jones be a better player next season if they had won it?

What I care about is the result on the field. Is the player better, is the team better, is everyone doing their best to improve?

That is what counts.

That is why I find the All-Star selections (in any sport) meaningless, especially when the fans vote. How many times have we seen someone who has been injured all season "earn" selection to the All-Star team?

Keep the awards. Let's see it where it counts: on the field.

Jose

1

George,

Apples and oranges.

I was responding to BaseballFan's post specifically about Morton. I did not in any way address the success or lack thereof of the team as a whole.

And while you are certainly capable of showing at least a 10/1 ratio (I'd even say you are on the low side there and it is probably closer to 25/1) of players that didn't pan out and never learned to pitch....the point still stands.

To try to say that Morton is incapable of being able to get lefties out or to pitch at this level with the sample size as small as it is (33 games pitched at the ML level) cannot be done with certainty as BBF did.

Jose,

Hear, hear! Great post in all respects!

Thanks, Zisk.

We may all disagree about the exact means and methods, but I think many of us share a common bottom line: we want to see excellence on the field.

I just can't get worked up about the whole award thing - unless the award is the World Series Trophy.

Jose

2

THE OFFICIALLY UNOFFICIAL PBC BLOGS AND MLB LINKS:

Why Gavs--2010 CHONE projections and Ronny Cedeno

whygavs.com/.../2010-chone-projections-and-ronny-cedeno.html

Why gavs-ROY Links and Things

whygavs.com/.../roy-links-and-things.html

Sandlot Swashbucklers--AFL: Scorpions Get Two Hits, Friday Gets Hit

mvn.com/.../afl-scorpions-get-two-hits-friday-gets-hit.html

Raise the Jolly roger-Fourth?!

raisethejollyroger.com/.../fourth

Green Weenie-Shortstop Smoke and McClutch

oldbucs.blogspot.com/.../shortstop-smoke-mcclutch.html

Green Weenie--McClutch

oldbucs.blogspot.com/.../mcclutch.html

Rumbunter-BREAKING: McCutchen Got Robbed. Does This Ballot Look Fishy to You?

rumbunter.com/.../breaking-mccutchen-got-robbed-does-this-ballot-look-fishy-to-you

Rumbunter--Roberto Clemente Museum: The Great One Would Be Proud

rumbunter.com/.../roberto-clemente-museum-the-great-one-would-be-proud

MLB Transactions--some former Pirates go FA

www.cbssports.com/.../transactions

Bucco fans--Pittsburgh Pirates Top 50 Prospects: 14 - Quinton Miller

Read more: www.buccofans.com/.../pittsburgh-pirates-top-50-prospects-14.html#ixzz0X7nT0XJU">www.buccofans.com/.../pittsburgh-pirates-top-50-prospects-14.html

www.buccofans.com/.../pittsburgh-pirates-top-50-prospects-14.html

The "Mc" Effect-Brown, Blass Visit Waynesburg University

eatsleepmlb.mlblogs.com/.../brown_blass_visit_waynesburg_u.html

FanHuddle-Andrew McCutchen finishes fourth in NL Rookie of the Year voting

fanhuddle.com/.../andrew-mccutchen-finishes-fourth-in-nl-rookie-of-the-year-voting

Pirate Winter League Stats

mlb.mlb.com/.../org.jsp

VOTE: This Year in baseball Awards

mlb.mlb.com/.../index.jsp

Bleacher report--Should the Boston Red Sox Look into Ryan Doumit?

bleacherreport.com/.../291503-should-the-red-sox-look-into-ryan-doumit

The Retriever-Counterpoint: You don't need a salary cap, teams need to make good decisions

www.retrieverweekly.com

Clutch is the real deal.  i'm not sure if this was the intent of the other posts, but i don't need to see an award to judge that.  now if we can get a few more like him...

Jose,

I'm not a big awards fan either, but I don't put people down for talking about things that they like to talk about.  We all have different interests.

Jose

Agree--posted last night that I do not care about voted awards as different voters would elect different winners.  Show me the player with the most RBI, most HR, highest BA, most wins, lowest ERA

@ 21: Not putting anyone down at all. Just throwing in my 2 cents as to why I believe it (ROY/All Stars etc)  is a non-issue.

I agree with JAL here: show me the numbers - then we can start making comparisons.

Jose

3

Jose,

One more time you are wrong since you really do not read things completely, I was correcting myself

Morning mates, good tidings

So lets talk baseball.

Assuming Ol' Itchy Trade Fingers has to make a move, who do you see as most likely to be the one sent packing?

My vote is Doumit, may have an attitude problem, I'm saying may, don't know for sure, he's tied up salary wise for the next two years with some options after that, he's still got a high upside although he's getting older, and we have some depth at catcher.  Diaz either makes the team or we lose him/could lose him.

BFD,  from now on I see your twists as useless conversation and will page down, I ask you to do like wise.  

BFD,  from now on I see your twists as useless conversation and will page down, I ask you to do like wise.  

"@ 21: Not putting anyone down at all. Just throwing in my 2 cents as to why I believe it (ROY/All Stars etc)  is a non-issue."

Jose,

I just view this comment, "In re: ROY - Who cares? " as a putdown.  Some people care.  No big deal though.

Let's hope these two players' careers turn out a lot better than Warren Morris and Kris Benson.

Morning Biz.  I've got a hunch Pearce's days are numbered.  He just hasn't lived up to his potential but still could be on some team's radar as a possibility... late bloomer and all that.

GGG,   As much as Pearce is a nice guy, I sure hope the FO upgrades his roster spot.

GGG - i think your hunch may be right.  Pearce might benefit from a new home and maybe prove most of us wrong and be another team's Legend.  Those situations are few and far between.  If he stays with PBC, my fervent hope is that it's in the minors.  if he figures it out, great.  if not, i dont want him taking up space on the major league roster learning how to play.  btw, i'm agreeing with you...just fervently expressing opinion about not wanting long-term-learners and experiments in major league starting roles in 2010.  

Sigh.

@21: Ok. Take it however you want. You, after all, were the one who noted that we all have different interests. I was just noting mine.

@ JJ: You know, berating me about my reading ability is not very nice. Could you perhaps develop a list of all things you think I am doing incorrectly and then have JAL make it part of the morning links? It would save everyone some time and make it easier for me to ignore.

Jose

4

@ Drew: I think it entirely likely that Pearce, Bixler and Walker will be elsewhere before long. They are either going to be dropped from the 40 man or moved in a trade to make room on the 40 man.

Jose

5

Morning Triple G

Do you think Pearce will be enough of a chip to get something of substance in return?

It would clear a spot on the 40 man if done this week though, but I'll bet guys like him will be out there as non-tenders

Maybe something out of the blue like Andy to PDogs?  That was mentioned in the Philly paper yesterday, but I don't know if Andy gives them the pop they are looking for, $$ wise he's cheap though

Drew and JJ - yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking.  If I read the Why Gav's morning link article on projections correctly then I'm surprised at how high they've projected Moss' Avg.  Maybe I'm reading the article wrong.  I really, really, really was pulling for Moss and agree with folks that say he didn't get to play every day as hoped, but... I don't know... I'm just not seeing his projected potential out there.

Grats to AMac and Jones.

Next year ROY possibility? PA, possibly Lincoln? Who else is there in our devoid system?

www.pittsburghlive.com/.../s_652562.html

I'm not giving up on Steven Pearce just yet.  Lets see what he can do off the bench in 2010.  This kid went from high-A ball to the majors in one year!  I don't care how bad his season was last year, you don't do that without having some sort of talent.  Give him a roster spot.  Who's gonna take his place?  Jose Tabata and his 26 HRs in 1600+ career minor league ABs.  I don't think so, not for a corner outfield position which demands much more power.  Tabata's not ready yet.  Pearce would be better off the bench, especially against lefties because we don't have too many pinch-hitting options off the bench.

Biz - I do believe that Pearce would be a good chip for some organization that would provide something in return... now that something would probably be the dreaded "prospect" that folks cringe at, but something none the less.

Your Andy proposal is interesting though.  I still think Andy could break out so if we trade him I'd be clubbing myself in the head watching him excel at a different team.

Jose

Don't need more work my friend--morning links take enough of my no :)

Kragbox,  Tabata has played at a higher level with a high average and is ripping the ball ouit in arizoney and he is a youngster, but of course some will say thta he is the only one claiming he is a youngster.

TripleG

If Andy breaks out, and we keep him, that would be a nice problem, maybe its time to move Walker?  Or are we counting our chickens before they hatch?

I just got a feeling Neal the Dealer is gonna do something, he can't help himself ; }  (No digs at FO intended, making a joke)

Krag

Devoid?--Future-ROY possibilities--PA, Tabata, Lincoln, d'Arnaud, Sanchez, Marte, Uviedo and probably more possibilities with the first 3 possible for 2010.

Jose,  So, you make fun of me and I correct your funny's and I am the one berating, everyone sees right by your antics.

maybe its time to just page down since you also have trouble with the truth.

As I mentioned yesterday, Pearce was apparently injured during his tryout which supposedly hampered his swing. I wonder if they will take that into account.

=========

As far as Lloyd's rant against Demery, I would prefer that it didn't happen, but I can see where it was coming from. And if there are such repetitive posters among the "Kool Aid crowd", I just haven't seen it.

We should remember that this blog is not just for those of us who post, but also for those on the PG site that read it and don't post. These are people that are looking for insight into baseball and the Pirates and want to get the take of the semi-educated fan base.

For a person like that, the repetitive posts of some, which do nothing to further the dialog and only act to attempt to silence dialog by shouting louder and attempting to ridicule the FO, are a turn off from reading and participating on the blog.

I'm very happy when people who are pessimistic about the direction of the franchise post thought out observations - like BaseballFan's note that Morton has a problem with righties. He seems to bring some insight into the blog and I'm happy for those kinds of posts.

I hope to read more of those kinds of pessimistic posts and less of the caps-lock-stuck posts that Lloyd was referring to.

"This kid went from high-A ball to the majors in one year!  I don't care how bad his season was last year, you don't do that without having some sort of talent."

WNels,

Pearce's 2008 wasn't very good either.

Off to the National Press Club to work the Book fair--set up, in charge of volunteers--might check in once of twice from a computer here.  Have a good day all.

Nels,  I do not advocate giving up on him, what I do advocate is until he gets it together to have his roster spot filled a little better.

@ WNels89: I respectfully disagree. Pearce has shown nothing in the Bigs and not much in the minors since that magical summer. he just caught lightning in a bottle for a brief time.

I think of him as "Craig Wilson Lite."

Jose

6

McCutchen, in my opinion and the opinion of the sportswriters who really know baseball, had a better year than Coghlan.  Coghlan can't steal a base to save his life.  That makes him a 4-tool player at best.  Cutch is blessed with all 5.  Dumb Baseball Writers..

Where's the outrage here?  

I recognize that there is some frustration that Moss didnt play enough to get a fair or full shot.  There is another way to look at that.  Platooning was much more common on even good teams once.  Danny Murtaugh was a proponent.  Reason, so the thinking goes, is it puts players in a better position to succeed.  So maybe you don't play inexperienced lefties, for instance, against lefty starting pitchers, and you have two players sharing some positions.  

Ok, sorry for the baseball 101, you all KNOW this.  But could it be that JR was trying to do the same with Moss, playing him mostly in situations where he had a better chance to succeed?  If so, then with his weak #s, it doesnt bode well for him if he played against the "other half" of the pitchers who are more likely to give him fits.

You can make the argument both ways...just wanted to point out that there's another side to the argument re: whether it's better for a young player to play every day, or better to play in more favorable situations.

Jose,

Isn't it rich that you are being counseled for perceived "put downs" by the same individual who has repeatedly violated Post Gazette behavior guidelines by falsely and dishonestly accusing 4 or 5 individuals on the blog of maintaining multiple registrations?

Last I checked, you, me, Demery, BFD, and Drew have been "put down" by this dishonest accusation.

Further, did you notice that on Nov. 2nd this same individual claimed that a Post Gazette employee is illegally intercepting private emails sent through the Post Gazette blog and forwarding them on to him?

Do you suppose we should file a formal complaint with the Post Gazette regarding this claim that constitutes gross invasion of privacy? What would happen to the Post Gazette employee this individual is referring to if the matter were reported to Jerry Micco's attention? Or that of the Post Gazette's Legal Department?

"My evidence is an email from an individual employed by Post Gazette."

community.post-gazette.com/.../afternoon-baseball-talk-11-2-09.aspx

How dare you Jose / Demery / NuHo / BFD / Drew for your innoculous comments. How dare you.

;-)

From Mark: "We should remember that this blog is not just for those of us who post, but also for those on the PG site that read it and don't post. These are people that are looking for insight into baseball and the Pirates and want to get the take of the semi-educated fan base."

No offense, but this is putting the blog a bit up there on the relative importance scale, isn't it? I mean, when looking for info or insightful commentary, the paid correspondents are supposed to be providing that aren't they?

I mean, I do try to think about things and reason out my own opinions, but I would hardly recommend that anyone come here as if the collective blog were some sort of Baseball Oracle at Delphi.

Recognizing that I have my oft-pointed out problems reading/writing and knowing that there are one or two others here with impaired communication skills as well it would seem that the P-G is doing itself a great dis-service if the Blog is supposed to be serving as some sort of high quality information source on the PBC.

It's a blog. Not Baseball America. I think some here need to get over themselves...

No offense.

Jose

7

Jose,

Pearce can't carry Craig Wilson's jock strap. - Wilson hit 99 ML HR's.

Pearce will never stick along that long.

Oh good Hostage, another meltdown.

"Further, did you notice that on Nov. 2nd this same individual claimed that a Post Gazette employee is illegally intercepting private emails sent through the Post Gazette blog and forwarding them on to him?"

As I told you yesterday, I never said anyone is intercepting emails and forwarding them to me.  You even provided the link that shows what I said and you still got it wrong.

ITS A CULTURE OF JJ Manipulation

JJ - You are the master of twisting posters comments.  You state to Jose "everyone sees right through your antics"  Apparently I am not everyone, because I see things must differently.  You like to include your minions in your blast posts.........speak for your self please....

I agree with Jose that perhaps you can put together a list of things we are allowed to post in your blog.

Good morning everyone.   Looks nasty in here....

Curious,

At the risk of being called a zombie, I would argue that "Opie" as you refer to NH, has done an exemplary job of rebuilding the organization.  If he had the luxury of simply focusing on the ML product then he possibly would have taken the plan in a different direction.  Possibly but not certainly.

I know this is repetitive but as a small market team the PBC must follow the process of building from within and replenishing for the most oart with home-grown talent.  The quickest and most economical way to do that was to trade the assets they possessed and reap the greatest return.

While you say you don't care about Lynchburg the reality is that those players, and others in the system, will decide the future of the franchise that you seem to care so deeply about.  

When I see where the health of the franchise is today compared to just a few years ago, IMO it's not even close.  These guys have stockpiled real talent at multiple levels.  Heck, I was just happy to see them get the first round picks right!  That's already an improvement from the previous group.

I know I haven't changed your mind and you won't most likely chnage mind.  Just differing opinions on what the proper direction is.  So be it.

I just think the result to date is self evident.

by the way............

@ jj -

BFD,  from now on I see your twists as useless conversation and will page down, I ask you to do like wise.  

-----------

i DIDN'T TWIST ANYTHING BUD...go back and read Sat mornings posts.

-------

Hos - maybe i missed something, but i thought the inclusion of me in the multiple-accounts-personality thing was a joke...one that i helped feed by suggesting it was true (about me), but also meant in joke.  So if i fanned the flames, my apologies.

But if it wasnt meant as a joke, then i'll say it for the audience once...for the record, i have no other accounts.  Though i have SERIOUSLY asked mrs drew and drew jr to start accounts.  Junior is a possibility.  The Missus is very unlikely...she thinks we're all a bunch of idjits.

@ Hostage - or whoever I am: Isn't the board dripping with Irony today? First, JJ schools me on my inability to read properly and another person on their misuse of grammar.

Then 21 points out that we are all here for different reasons and different viewpoints - just don't express yours.

Mark thinks the people of Pittsburgh are flocking here for our insightful baseball wisdom and we need to upgrade our writing.

Irony - gotta love it.

Jose

8

If they both come up and play to their potential, both Tabata and Alvarez could be ROY candidates next year.

Of course, as BBF has pointed out, for every rookie that hits the ground running, there are 10 that don't.

Both Tabata and Alvarez are interesting cases for next year.

Tabata will kind of be like a Coghlan-type player where he will hit a lot of line drives and have a high average. Being younger means his power is not as developed as much as Coughlan. I still think he could hit 10 HRs. Assuming the class is as strong as this year's - which it probably won't be - for Tabata to get ROY, he would have to hit well over .300 to get it.

The big question for Alvarez is if he can control his strikeouts. If he can keep his average up around .260-.270 and hit 30 HRs in 4 months, then he's go a good chance to get ROY next year as well.

Mark -

These are people that are looking for insight into baseball and the Pirates and want to get the take of the semi-educated fan base."

--------------

Insight/opinion about the short comings of the FO and ownership is just as important as discussing what free agent pickups will not be made...... It's even more important than some peoples poems.

21,

Of course you are going to attempt to retract your statement regarding the PG employee forwarding you emails now that you opened your big mouth and put their job in jeopardy.

Further, I can't speak for any of you other accusers however I am willing to forward Jerry Micco a scanned copy of my photo id and ip address so he can confirm I am who I am and no one else.

Be a man for a change and simply admit you are lying,

"Then 21 points out that we are all here for different reasons and different viewpoints - just don't express yours."

That's not what I said at all Jose.  With regards to the ROY, you said, "who cares."  I took that to mean you were putting down others who cared about the ROY.  I said we all have different interests.  I never said anything about not expressing your viewpoints.  Never.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

I don't have any other registrations either Drew.

I don't believe Jose, Demery, you, or BFD do either.

But that won't stop you from being accused of it for days on end.

Jose,

Another fine contribution to the cause of getting people to try to remember that even the sum of all of our parts are equal to very little in the way of credible baseball insight.

If only I could remember that myself more frequently...I'd be less likely to get on such a high horse upon which I have no right.

Jose,

Don't put words in 21's mouth.

Just let him falsely accuse 4 or 5 of us.

Is that rich or what?

"Of course you are going to attempt to retract your statement regarding the PG employee forwarding you emails now that you opened your big mouth and put their job in jeopardy."

They didn't forward me an email.  They sent me an email.  I've told you this repeatedly.  Facts are good.  You should embrace them.

And I gave you my counteroffer yesterday.  Your idea doesn't work for several reasons, one of which is that I don't trust you.

"Just let him falsely accuse 4 or 5 of us."

2.  I told you this yesterday too.  Facts.  They're good.  Ignorance isn't.

JP - I did say "semi-educated".  :-)

But you know what I mean. People want to get other people's opinions of current events. That's what the blogosphere is all about.

Who likes to read about people bashing each other? I certainly don't. Really from either side. That's why I would prefer that Lloyd hadn't said that. Let me say that again.

I prefer that even if people are fed up with people abusing the blog that they try to civilly deal with the situation.

@ Zisk: Thank you once again!

Jose

9

Whomever dubbed this place the asylum couldnt have been more accurate....Im only an occasional visitor - an  infrequent poster so maybe Im not the right person to say this but.......

I cant believe how much time some of you spend on here bickering over a professional baseball team that has been pathetic for 17 years and its going to be a few more years before they are in position to having a chance at  being a .500 team, if ever...if thats not bad enough, the blog gets into these petty disagreements that would be expected from 13 and 14 yr olds...

AW -- I meant to say something about Lloyd, too -- but time has been at a premium here.  I don't think it's a free speech issue, and I get what you're saying about implied vs constitutional free speech -- but one of civility.  

Free speech also includes the "right" to tell someone where to get off, to pick a verbal fight, to espouse dispicable views, to natter endlessly and repetitively, and to generally make a nuisance of oneself.  Civility does not.

In addition, I would add that offense can both be given, and taken.  I've seen examples of both here.  There has been everything from out and out name calling and deliberate insults at the one extreme, to folks taking offense at humor or misstatements -- and I've even seen people reply in opposition to points that if they'd read more carefully actually agreed with them.

We all slip up sometimes.  A few are deliberately to provoke, and there are a few personalities that are "just that way."  On the whole, though, most (not all) of the folks here seem to be genuninely interested in exchanging views, throwing in a little light hearted chat and humor, discussing things, occasionally debating them, and generally giving the blog a sense of community.  

I think it's an interesting way to pass a couple of hours on a slow day whether I agree with everyone or not.  Also, as I said yesterday -- there's something about human nature that when there is a call to "play nice", things will get a little testier.  Nobody likes other people telling them what to do -- and we're all experts at telling other people what to do.

NuHo,

Since I'm in such a self-reflective mood today, I'd like to issue you a public apology for my tirade yesterday.

I took it way too personal when you questioned my honesty/integrity for making unintentional mistakes in declaring what your stances were on two separate topics.

I can admit to being wrong and have no problem telling the entire board that I was/am when the situation warrants it. But there is a difference between being wrong and lying and I felt that you crossed the line in accusing me of the latter when the former was the actual reason.

@21: I really would be interested in knowing then how many people I really am here.

I agree with Hostage on this one. I would happily agree to provide whatever documentation to Jerry Micco needs to verify that I remain a singular entity here.

I also think it is patently ridiculous that anyone inside the P-G is sharing this sort of information with non-employees of the P-G. That is a serious breach of privacy rules and I for one do not want there to be access to my personal information no matter how small a quantity of it may have been required to register here.

Even more ridiculous is continuing to name individuals who are "one and the same person" with no basis in fact.

Jose

10

out for a bit.  before i do, i need to own up to something re Morris-Benson.  I thought Benson was the real deal.  There it's off my chest.  I feel better.

bye now.

BFD said -

Insight/opinion about the short comings of the FO and ownership is just as important as discussing what free agent pickups will not be made

===================

I agree with you. I just believe that insight should come in the form of respectful dialog, not sarcastic caps-lock-stuck insults.

Well said JHadar.

sarcastic sword - re - time we spend here

Two reasons

1. - We are dyed in the wool pirrate fans

2. - We have no life to speak of ; }

Would someone please come to my room and wake me when we go back to talking baseball?  I'll be under the bed.

MarkinDallas - ROY Tabata and Alvarez

Unless either has a spring training where they simply kick the door down and absolutely have to be in the bigs, I would think the PBC will handle their arrival similarly to the way McCutch was brought up this past year.  So, I don't think either will have enough time/stats to win it.  IMO that hurt McCutch, give him another 80-100 atbats, and the stats would have been at the top

"@21: I really would be interested in knowing then how many people I really am here."

Jose,

I personally think you're Jose and only Jose and don't have any other registrations.

It would be nice if you admitted to putting words in my mouth earlier but I won't be disappointed if you don't say anything.

RE: Pearce....I think he was rushed through the system in 2007 and hit a brick wall once he got to Pittsburgh.  I think he looked better, but not impressive at the plate -- though I have to admit he made some good defensive plays.  I have to agree though that I would like to see someone else in his roster spot.  ...and you can add Bixler to that last sentence too.  :-)

DMac -- Pearce and Bixler.  I hope the FO can do a trade like Jaramillo for Paulino for one or both.  

The depth of insight and analysis here never ceases to amaze me. This has become a chat room - not a blog.

I have to agree with Maz. The Other Side was the way to go. This side has dwindled down to the Self Absorbed Ass Side.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a Tea Party to attend.

@ 21: Perception is reality, I guess, and that knife cuts both ways. What you wrote very clearly implied (to me) a certain thought and I replied to that based on what I inferred from what you wrote.

I have no interest in putting words in anyone else's mouth.

Jose

11

PS - I am a bit disappointed in being a "one and only." I was hoping to be one of the "in-crowd" of happy, shiny multiple personalities...

I think 21 and Jose Pagan are the same person.  I'm out.

Have a good ay everyone.

@ JLP: But that is the Self Absorbed Ass Side in Capitals! Not just your ordinary colloection of self absorbed asses (small letters)!

We all aspire to achieve...

Jose

12

Jose,

I understand what you're saying but what I don't understand is how you came to the conclusion that I was telling people not to express their opinions.  I said, "we all have different interests," and that's nowhere close to:

"Then 21 points out that we are all here for different reasons and different viewpoints - just don't express yours."

@ Pearce haters,

Do you feel he's not worthy of a 40-man roster spot?  I forgot, do we get anything if someone is selected in the Rule-5 draft off our team?

WNels,

We get $50k and that person would have to stay on the selecting team's 25 man ML roster the entire year or they are offered back at $25k.

"I forgot, do we get anything if someone is selected in the Rule-5 draft off our team?"

If the player gets off to a good start with their new team, we get to criticize the GM for not being able to recognize that the player was on the verge.  :-)

@ Wnels: I don't "hate" Pearce, I just think that he had one of those streaks when he first came up that was not indicative of his true ability. I think he has been trying to duplicate it since and probably does need a fresh start. Who knows, he could be some other team's Garrett Jones in the future.

Same thing with Bixler. I have posted in support of him and thought he played a decent 2B during his last call up. It may be that he needs to move out to move up.

Jose

13

Bizrow -

There's no doubt number of games played hurt Jones, but I'm not sure it hurt Cutch so much. I think Coghlan only played 20 more games than Cutch did.

I think more than anything Coghlan was given a pass for his defense and Cutch was not seen as being defensively great yet.

If you look at pure offensive stats, wOBA shows Coghlan to be just slightly better offensively this year - .372 to .368.

Now, a lot of people have mentioned this is due to Coghlan being very lucky on BABIP - .360 is very high, even considering his high line drive rate. But of course he did what he did. JA Happ had a much higher FIP than Hanson, but most had him higher on their ballot.

Coghlan was terrible on defense this year, but he was playing the outfield, which he hadn't played his entire professional career.

Cutch was just average in the outfield this year, although most people believe he has a much higher potential than that and will improve.

I think that most people looked at Coghlan's defense and just ignored it and assumed he will play an average 2nd base when moved there. They looked at Cutch's defense and saw an average center field and canceled the defense equation out.

Of course, Cutch is better at base stealing, but they seemed to have discounted that.

I think if Cutch would have been able to keep his AVG up near .300, then he would have taken it.

Now, there are others who chose the pitchers, and I think what you see with Cutch coming in 4th is that there are many who feel like the pitchers both did a good enough job to come in 2nd or 3rd, but have a hard time voting for a pitcher to come in 1st.

So that's why I think Cutch fell to 4th and why he was very close to coming in 1st.

Let's look at our 40-man roster in more detail:

1.  Capps

2.  Claggett

3.  Duke

4.  Dumatrait

5.  Hanrahan

6.  Hart

7.  Jackson

8.  Karstens

9.  Maholm

10.McCutchen, D

11.Morton

12.Ohlendorf

13.Sues

14.Thomas, Justin

15.Uviedo, Ronald

16.Veal

17.Diaz

18.Doumit

19.Jaramillo

20.Alvarez

21.Bixler

22.Cedeno

23.Clement

24.Diaz, Argenis

25.Iwamura

26.LaRoche

27.Pearce

28.Vazquez

29.Walker, Neil

30.Jones

31.McCutchen, Andrew

32.Milledge

33.Moss

34.Tabata

35.Young, Delwyn

36.Ascanio

37.Meek

We have three spots, I think we might be active in the Rule 5 draft  Also, Where's Brad Lincoln?

Hey Guys,

Glad to see that maintenance has installed the Tampax machine. We really are going to need it today.

FWIW part 1 Name calling has no place in here. Today the list includes zombie, liar, stupid, cluless, and worthless. Now regardless of whether or not those actual words were used is irrelevant, the tone used is more important as we are unable to read the mind of the poster.

FWIW part 2. Stop the arguing. Somebody wrote that it seems the blog is populate by 13 - 14 year olds. I think he is giving some of yinz too much credit. You area cting like 5 year olds today. LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE. DID TO DID NOT DID TO DID NOT.

FWIW part 3 NuHo versus JJ. Why does it seem (at least to me) that most of the disruption occurs when either/or feel slighted.

But to be perfectly honest it doesn't start or stop with just those two. The population today here is starting to sound like a presidential contest, or maybe a sit down between Rachel Maddow and Bill O'Reilly. Loud angry accusations that on the surface appear legit, but if truly investigated go poof in the light. But true to the arguers that does not stop the fight they just get louder and more obnoxoius, just so they can be proved "right"

So,while I went on record against LLoyd's little laugher, I am starting a new campaign the slogan is "Stop the Noise"

I think most of the parings from the 40 man will be pitchers. Pearce could see time on the Pirates 25 man this year, but there are a lot of pitchers that probably won't. And if the Pirates can't use them in their bullpen, you've got to imagine that there are few teams that would want them taking up a spot.

"or maybe a sit down between Rachel Maddow and Bill O'Reilly"

I just lost my lunch.

WNels,

I expect to see Lincoln, Gorkys, and Bryan Morris all protected this week.  And maybe some others if other spots open up and I expect they will.

21

Was it good for you too?

Andrew Bailey over Elvis Andrus, a full-time shortstop for AL ROY? Gimme a break.

Um, Baliey had 26 saves, 1.84 ERA, .88 WHIP, and BAA .167.  Those are much better numbers than Andrus' .260 BA and 6 homers.

IF -- So, what do we do with Bixler?  Keep him?  Trade him?  DFA him?

@ JHadar: Can't say he seems to be in the PBC's plans based on how much he rode the pine in September. Don't think that by himself he would bring much in a trade.

Maybe DFA'ing him is a real possibility.

Jose

14

WNels - Andrus was also one of the league's best shortstops, though.

I want to urge everyone to sign the petition for the MLB to air Dock Ellis' LSD no-hitter.

www.petitiononline.com/.../petition.html

Indy,

Was what good for me?

MarkInDallas,

I know that, but that's not always taken into account.  If defense was accounted for, Coghlan would not have won.  McCutchen played much better defense.

bases.nbcsports.com/.../my-ballot-national-league-rookie-of-the-year.html.php

bam bam boom--what fights.  There was a recording in 1971 about this blog--We're All Bozos on This Bus :)

Coghlan's .321 BA was what jumped out at the voters, which is pretty resppectable.

MARCH ANTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

========================================

WNels: Re: Bailey vs. Andrus. You're a little bit low on Andrus' numbers and I didn't see Andrus' 33 stolen bases (6th in AL) in your numerical analysis. Bailey finished 9th in the AL in saves. My point is that lots of guys can turn in saves from unlikely places, but how many GMs would pick that guy over Andrus, a slick fielding 20-year-old midfielder with speed to burn? I'm just not a big fan of a relief pitcher getting ROY, regardless of his numbers unless they're like Eckersley, when he won MVP.

BTW, isn't using "Um" in your reply a little childish?  

WNels: MarkinDallas was pointing out Andrus' defense as a advantage over a relief pitcher in the AL, not a center fielder in the NL.