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FIRSTIES?
Stock alert:
If the PBC fans are allowed to grow med marijuana, BUY STOCK IN WHITE CASTLE
One less shortstop on the trade market. JJ Hardy remains in the upper midwest...going from Milwaukee to Minnesota for Carlos Gomez.
sports.espn.go.com/.../story
Breaking News: At least eight people have been shot in an Orlando, Florida, high-rise office building, CNN affiliates report.
Wow....it looks like Hardy brought almost nothing in return.
Do the Blalock campers realize who he is represented by?
If so, do you really think there is much chance he will land in Pittsburgh?
"it looks like Hardy brought almost nothing in return."
I would not say that at all.
Carlos Gomez has tons of talent as evidenced by his arrival to the major leagues by age 21 and becoming a full time regular at age 22.
Not too many Pirate prospects have done that in recent years with the exception of McCutchen.
Heck we're all geeked up about a 28 yr old ROY candidate to the point that he is called "The Legend".
Seems like the Brew crew are pulling a Pirate by DUMPING salary for wannabes who cannot crack the lineup for other teams. Maybe we will not finished last next year after all.
Be very afraid Mike you might end up a Bucco after all....or a Natinal
Sorry guys there is not one name on the FA list that makes me salivate, that we can afford. Hey NuHO you got Bays' number so you can call him and ask what it would take, I bet if you ask PRETTY PLEASE HE HAS TO SAY YES RIGHT.
=====================================
Boras? That guy that represented Sano, Plummer? I am unsure. I don't think about the agent of the player. They should only be there to negotiate the best possible deal for their client, not block their client from playing in certain places (I know that doesn't always happen, but that's how I feel)
And no, I don't think there's much chance he'll land here, but when looking at FA's that could help the Bucs next year be more competitive, Blalock is 1 of a few so I think they should make him an offer.
What I think should happen, and what actually will happen may end up being the same, but most likely not. Still doesn't mean it wouldn't help and that I'd like to see him in a Bucs uni next year.
Everyone having fun?
Ah, someone mentioned THE LEGEND ... how sweet the sound, how swift his bat flies through the zone, a la Roy Hobbs!
It's funny.
Gomez is "nothing" despite the fact that he had the talent to break into the majors at age 21 and become a full time regular at 22 and is only 23 today.
Gorkys Hernandez is 21, still in AA and Pirate fans think he is the centerfielder of the future.
LOL!
NuHo:
Thanks for the return of your HOF avatar; just goes to show you , you can go home again. Somebody please call JBAY and JW and Xman, we can return to past glory so we give JBay 10 per year JW 5 and Xman 2 that makes 17(million) plus the 32 that franks says is next year that makes 49 just under last years start. But.....?
So the trades begin, do you folks think Peddler Neal, he of the itchy trade trigger finger is going to move anyone of substance this offseason? There has been talk of Doumit, and both Maholm and Duke could get looked at, Duke should be around 5 million or so due to arbitration. Capps is arb eligible too, so just for discussion sake, any thoughts?
NH were you serious about shootings in Orlando?
Biz,
That was a cut and paste right off CNN.com.
NuHos -
You're old avatar is back. Just thought you'd like to know I lost a bet with myself over that.
I thought the next circle/slash avi you'd post would be of a goose, based on what you said the other day.
Gomez
Can we say salary dump in Brewer land, now they don't have to pay Hardy or Cameron, but at they get potential in the outfield.
Nu Ho, never mind, sorry, checked it out myself, my son works down there for EA Sports, not even close to his building, whew...
I think Neal should trade Capps, Doumit, Duke, and Maholm so we can build up our farm system and improve our organization dramatically compared to where it is today.
Can you even imagine how much that would improve the organization?
So here is our "Dream" lineup for next April
Cutch CF 25HRs
Iwwy 2B 5
Jones 1B 25
Bay/Nady RF 35
Milledge/Bay LF 30
Doumit C 15
LaRoche 3B 12
Wilson SS 7
Total HRs 154
Do not wake me up until April
Biz -
>>do you folks think Peddler Neal, he of the itchy trade trigger finger is going to move anyone of substance this offseason?<<
Prior to the trade earlier this week, I would not have been surprised if Maholm, Duke, Doumit or Capps were trades. Now, I have no clue what direction Neal may take next. That trade for Iwatchmacallhim (it will take me time to learn his name) points to wanting positive results in 2010. Trading Maholm or Duke would seem to go counter to that.
So far as Doumit or Capps, trading them now would seem to be trading low.
So, to reiterate, I have no clue.
"Gomez is "nothing" despite the fact that he had the talent to break into the majors at age 21 and become a full time regular at 22 and is only 23 today"
Who cares when he broke into the majors. He's .247 lifetime and coming off of a .229 year. His OBP has never been above .300. He has no power and gets caught stealing 25% of the time.
And you're chastising people about Blalock?
===============================
I guess I'm not a Pirate Fan then. And you think Gorkys Hernandez is the CF of the Future?
Shame on you NuHo.....
G-man,
Turns out I am a lousy goose hunter.
I shot 14 shots and missed on everyone of them.
Therefore the geese can continue to fly with no red circles and slashes.
NuHo,
I've never commented on Gorkys or his future potential. As far as Gomez goes, in his first full season, he was little more than a defensive replacement in his time with the Twinkies after they didn't think he was a full time player watching him the year before get over 600 ABs.
As for the age that he broke in....so what.
You have continually railed on Milledge b/c of a lack of unfulfilled potential despite the fact that he broke in at 21 AND has; more HRs, RBIs, 2Bs, higher Avg, OBP, Slg, OPS, less Ks, more BB.
Biz
There has been talk of Doumit, and both Maholm and Duke could get looked at, Duke should be around 5 million or so due to arbitration. Capps is arb eligible too, so just for discussion sake, any thoughts?
____________________________
I don't know about Neal the dealer, but if it were me, the only one of that bunch I think I would deal at the right price and only the right price would be Doumit, because he is replaceable. At his point we do not have any replacements ready for Duke and Maholm.
Left handed starters are hard to find these days.
Ahh....
My comments on Gomez should have read that after his first full season...not during.
Why,
After seeing Gorky's live, I'm on the fence on him.
Maybe he'll make it, maybe he won't.
I didn't walk away with a strong sense feeling that he was a for sure major leaguer in the making like I did after seeing Tabata and Alvarez.
No I don't know that Gorky's is the CF of the future, but I've seen that sentiment noted right here on this very board on several occasions.
And I agree, you are not a Pirate fan.
You are a Bob Nutting, Frank Coonelly, and Neal Huntington fan.
IMO there is a HUGE difference.
Zisk,
"You have continually railed on Milledge b/c of a lack of unfulfilled potential despite the fact that he broke in at 21 AND has; more HRs, RBIs, 2Bs, higher Avg, OBP, Slg, OPS, less Ks, more BB."
Ahh, thanks for confirming what I suspected. - You do make this stuff up as you go.
The fact of the matter is, the Milledge trade is the one trade Huntington has made that I approved of and I have been nothing less than a staunch supporter of Milledge's talent.
The regulars on this board are well aware of this too.
Way to show your true colors.
NuHo
I hope you never insult me that way.
Here is the link to the Nutting discussion.
It's about ten minutes. Worth a listen.
www.wwva.com/.../single_podcast.html
Click on the fourth story.
@ NUHO-
"I shot 14 shots and missed on everyone of them."
--------
Sounds like NH in the trade room.......
Things are warming up.(No I'm not talking bout the weather)
BFD,
LOL! - Good one.
In all fairness I'd say Huntington might be a slightly better dealer than I am goose hunter.
At least he did well on the Milledge deal.
That makes him 1 for however many deals he's made.
I was 0 for 14 in shooting geese.
"B"
Now that was funny...sadly true but funny.
Ba-da-boom
Take my wife PLEASE.
NuttingHostage -Strange thing thing about geese,I could run over them on the bike path,but come hunting season they seem to get a lot smarter.Same thing about turkeys.I even hit a turkey with my truck,but I'm a lousy shot with a gun. :-) Must be an Iowa thing in my case.
THE SKY IS FALLING, THE SKY IS FALLING
This just in: NuHo gave faint praise to the FO
"After seeing Gorky's live, I'm on the fence on him."
I happen to see him live too and he had a great game which included a 400+ foot homerun.
And from that one game, I've come to the conclusion that seeing him for one game is not enough from which to make a decision.
>>I shot 14 shots and missed on everyone of them.<<
Sounds like you are to geese what I am to golf.
Someone once told me about golf that trees are 80% air so you should never be afraid to hit your golf ball toward one.
Suffice it to say me hitting a golf ball toward a tree is like Wiley Coyote trying to run through that tunnel Road Runner has painted on the mountain.
NoHu -
Glad to see your old avatar back....... I'd like to knock that smug look off his foreeyed face.........
I wouldn't call him the centerpiece of the deal, but he was the best of the 4 prospects the Twins received for John Santana just a year and a half ago. He was the Mets #2 prospect according to Baseball America. He had a pretty solid season his first year at 22, and regressed this year.
In my opinion, the Brewers did very well to get a player like that for Hardy.
MazfromIowa,
My once sharp shotgunning skills are non existent today after giving up small game hunting 10 - 15 years ago to focus on archery hunting for deer.
But I know what you mean about the geese. - Some days they will wander around in your yard or in a park totally oblivious to all the people around them but boy those buggers sure fly fast once the steel shot starts flying.
It was my first experience hunting geese and I had a terrific time.
================================================
Matt Capps 2009:
57 Apps. (54.1IP) / 4Ws - 8Ls / 27SVs / 5.60 ERA / 1.66 WHIP
Ryan Doumit 2009:
75 Games (of possible 162) / .250 BA / .299 OBP / .414 SLG / .714 OPS / 10HRs / 38RBIs
Zach Duke 2009:
32 Apps/GS (213.0 IP - 3 CGs - 1 ShutOut) / 11Ws - 16Ls / 4.06 ERA / 1.31 WHIP
Paul Maholm 2009:
31 Apps/GS (194.2 IP - 0 CGs - 0 ShutOuts) / 8Ws - 9Ls / 4.44 ERA / 1.44 WHIP
What in the world would the PBC have done without those above stellar performances from '09 (save Duke, although he really fell off in August and Sept.)?
I'm going against everyone and advocating that we sign Scott Podsednik to play the outfield.
He's not going to be an upgrade on the field...but maybe his wife (Playmate Lisa Dergan) will attend a lot of games.
Now why did you have to go and bring that up?
I'm probably even worse at golf than I am at goose hunting.
;-)
GoBucs,
"In my opinion, the Brewers did very well to get a player like that for Hardy."
Pirate fans only like these kinds of trades when Neal does them.
We get another clubs 11th rated best prospect and then we believe he's a lock to become the next Babe Ruth.
===========================
I wouldn't say fan, but I wouldn't care if it was Larry , Mo, and Curly in those positions. The guys in suits don't win or lose any ballgames.
And....
The Bucco's CF of the future is already there....
Shame on you again NuHo.
I owe you an apology for mixing you up with someone else. I went back and re-read the posts the day that the NM/SB - LM/JH and you were incredibly upbeat and supportive.
My bad.
I don't think we'll see any more major trades - certainly not starters - until next year, depending on how the PBC is doing. The minors are better off than they were, with a good number of quality prospects, and the natives are restless...
"What in the world would the PBC have done without those above stellar performances from '
I agree. I mean just look at how much better the club got when they traded LaRoche, Sanchez, Wilson, McLouth, and Grabow, Snell, and Gorzy.
I think it worked out so well that we really should do some more of it.
End of the day, despite all the trades we still maintained ....
A CULTURE OF WINNING!
Srsly.
<<We get another clubs 11th rated best prospect and then we believe he's a lock to become the next Babe Ruth.>>
I don't care who you are, that's funny.
"He's not going to be an upgrade on the field...but maybe his wife (Playmate Lisa Dergan) will attend a lot of games."
You have continually railed on Dergan b/c she put on a pound or two despite the fact that she still looks very attractive and has impressive measurements.
I don't know how good this Gomez kid is gonna be, but I'm surprised the Brewers traded for him. I think they're in "win now" mode and they need pitching. Badly.
This Gomez kid might take a couple seasons to peak (if he does at all-- it's almost never a sure thing). By then, Fielder will have lost a foot to diabetes and Ryan Braun will have have thrown one too many hissy fits and find himself playing somewhere else.
Ziskie,
Aw, now why do you have to go and be a nice guy.
No worries.
My apologies for being a wisenheimer to you in return.
Wozzle,
I will bet you anything that Iwamura gets dealt on or before the July 31st deadline.
POH,
Thank you.
I thought it was pretty clever too.
====================
What?
I mean just look at how much better the club got when they traded LaRoche, Sanchez, Wilson, McLouth, and Grabow, Snell, and Gorzy.
=================================
Because the Bucs were coming off a WS championship with those guys....
Grabow and Gorzelanny are the only ones I would've kept if I were GM of your list above.
>>she still looks very attractive and has impressive measurements.<<
It's always about the stats with you. :-)
At mlbtraderumors.com, Milwaukee's GM is reported as saying he'll try the FA route for their pitching needs. Good luck with that: I don't think there's enough pitching talent out there to make a huge difference, and it ain't gonna come cheap.
I guess the ripple effect here is that the PBC (to the extent it will seek out FA pitching-- I'm not sure they will or even should) will have MIL bidding against them for the kind of bargain-bin-talent that both teams seem to like.
>>I will bet you anything that Iwamura gets dealt on or before the July 31st deadline.<<
Is that going to happen? I won't exactly be knocked out of my recliner if it does. Key point about that is whether Neal had that as his motive for making the trade or if it's simply a result of Iwathamacallhim not wanting to sign an extension.
I'm certainly not the first person here or anywhere to acknowledge that a lot of players don't want to come to or stay in Pittsburgh these days. And some that do - e.g., Hinske - can't wait to get out. That's a fact of Pirate life.
One thought on whether Bay re-signs for a discount if he's still here. If he's still here, so are many of the other players who have been traded since. They would have signed a few more significant free agents as well. If those moves had been successful, and the team was close to or had a winning record, it's very possible he'd stay for a little less to be a part of the winner.
Management has said they didn't want to take the chance, which is fine. I guess they aren't confident that they could have made the correct decisions.
As for the Brewers and Gomez. Apparently, he is an elite defender. This means that Cameron will not be back, so not only do they pay Gomez less than they were Hardy, but they also drop $10 million off the books by letting Cameron go. That should give them some cash to sign a free agent pitcher or two.
Steve
I'm not sure they will or even should) will have MIL bidding against them for the kind of bargain-bin-talent that both teams seem to like.
Not to worry, when it comes to bargain-bin-talent, nobody is better at it than Neal.
Go Bucs
That should give them some cash to sign a free agent pitcher or two.
_______________________
Their confidence IMO had nothing to do with it, we have documented the plan many times, they are just following it.
As for cash, they are going to need a lot of it to sign Fielder.
I still hold that Bay couldn't be as successful on this team as he could in other places unless he had better hitters around him. That's what helped him in Boston. If the Sox won't overpay him, I don't see any reason why the PBC even should. It's not like he had an arm out there worth more than Milledge's.
Gman - show some respect, sir, it's Iwamura, or Iwwy Pop if you want to be Drew-ish. I think he stays until Chase or Shelby are ready - and that won't be until 2011. So unless they trade Iwwy for a MLB ready second baseman, why trade him at all in 2010. Perhaps they won't have a financial agreement to keep him in 2011, but I predict he stays through 2010.
Phillies pick up option to keep Lee.
There's a shocker.
Testing..... testing new Nutting avatar.....
Part of the reason I've made a big deal about the liklihood that Iwamura will get dealt in July is because if Huntington or Coonelly ever truly want the PBC to be a club that MLB players want to play for, that practice has to stop.
Baseball players don't necessarily want to be traded. - Think about the unrest and upheaval it creates in their lives. - As it is, they only get to be at home and sleep in their own beds and be with their own families for half the summer as it is. - If they get traded they are looking at temporary housing, being separated from the family, etc. - And then in many cases have to deal with it all over again to begin the next season.
Trades are apart of the game but that doesn't mean a player should like or enjoy it.
DK even wrote something to the effect that following this seasons trading, many of the Pirate players did not enjoy being considered as mere "pieces" or replacement commodities by the PBC front office.
So if Huntington continues to acquire players basically for 4 months a year with the intent of trading them, the reality of Pittsburgh not being a place MLB players don't necessarily want to be will not change.
"As for the Brewers and Gomez. Apparently, he is an elite defender. This means that Cameron will not be back, so not only do they pay Gomez less than they were Hardy, but they also drop $10 million off the books by letting Cameron go. That should give them some cash to sign a free agent pitcher or two."
Exactly how I see it too. - Good post.
PoH -
No disrespect meant to the gentleman. I am still learning his name. I had never seen his name before the trade.
So far as what you said about him staying throughout 2010 or longer, that's what I would like to see. I was just talking about possibilities. If he does not sign an extension beyond this year, well, this FO's MO is to trade those good players who will become FAs at the end of the year.
Not at all saying that's what I want.
"So if Huntington continues to acquire players basically for 4 months a year with the intent of trading them"
Jason Michaels
And who else fits this description?
NuHos (and PoH) -
Read my post above. I do not WANT Iwamura (thanks for the nudge to learn his name, PoH) to be traded. I was just talking about the elephant in the room/PNC Park.
I agree that practice of trading players by July 31 needs to stop at some point. Could not agree more about the upheaval in one's life. I have lived in exactly two cities in my life largely for that exact reason.
To me, I want to see the Pirates in a position where trades by July 31 are done because the Bucs need to ADD a player who is a key piece to making the playoffs, not dumping them to get value before they leave for FA.
It needs to start sometime. Why not 2010?
Hoss, I loved your rant on local sports radio.
It's terrible. You were spot on about Ellis Cannon. Maybe the worstest of the bunch.
GoBucs - Gomez/Cameron - exactamundo. $10 mill for Cameron is a huge amount - decent, but aging player whose numbers do not total that sum.
As far as Fielder goes, I don't expect to see him in a Brewers uni after this year. And they're not only desperate for starting pitching, they badly need a catcher - they have Kendall, a journeyman and nothing in the minors.
Methinks they missed their championship-contending window.
So if Huntington continues to acquire players basically for 4 months a year with the intent of trading them
__________________________
It is not Huntington's fault, the players wanted free agency, they got it. If they don't want to leave, agree to contracts that are their real value. But they would rather sell themselves to the highest bidder.
Blaming Huntington for everything is kind of, well, not exactly telling it the way it is.
.
Saying he only made one good trade is kind of well, not exactly telling it the way it is.
NuHo wrote: Trades are a part of the game but that doesn't mean a player should like or enjoy it.
____________________________________________
They're payed handsomely to tolerate it. Lots of people would gladly trade working conditions for their money.
They have a lot better working conditions than the active duty military, who generally have to up and move every three years or so. And the military is paid a heck of a lot less, and does a heck of a lot more, in the grand scheme of things.
I'm sorry they might not like being viewed as replaceable parts, but I think some perspective is in order.
You make a very good point about Bay's success with Boston being a byproduct of the lineup surrounding him.
And I am inclined to agree about not bringing him back now. Until we see if the team improves, this Pirate lineup looks weaker at the moment than the one he left in 2008. So he could easily be less productive than before.
Wait. Not even Jason Michaels fits that category. He left as a free agent. So Hinske? But he whined his way to being traded.
So Hostage. Who exactly has Nutting acquired that he traded four months later?
21 -
I'd add Nate McLouth. They didn't trade for him, but they signed him to a fairly long-term extension, called him a building block for the franchise, then traded him two months into the season.
Regardless of how many players they've done exactly that with, it's the general sentiment that moving players rather than keeping them long-term is their MO. That has to change if they ever want to draw any solid free agents in the future.
The point about Bay is applicable to most hitters........ Most batters are going to be better with more talent surrounding them........ sounds like more excuse making for Bobby and co,.......
Steve -
no doubt perspective is needed, but I think NoHu was simply saying it is another reason not to come here.......
G-Man - "It needs to start sometime. Why not 2010?"
If PBC looks anything like competitive in 2010 (I don't expect it but stranger things have happened) the FO will try to keep Iwamura. If he's having a good year and PBC is not, they'll try to trade him for value. Most veterans want more than anything to be given a shot on a contending team, and moving isn't too important. Aki was an important member, and a leader, on a very good team.
It is a sad state of affairs when the day we acquire a player we are already discussing when and who we can trade them for......... very telling.......
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When we talk consider the talent evaluation of NH and company keep in mind that he turned down Cliff Lee, Ben Fransisco and Kelly Stoppich for Bay and Ronnie Paulino, before 2008 season because he thought he could more for Bay at deadline.
Hanson of course was a bust. Moss and Larouche have not performed that well. Morris we will see. Maybe in the end NH will have made a better deal by waiting, but Cliff Lee won a CY Young in AL in 2008 and won 14 games this year for NL champs not to mention his strong performance is playoffs.
"Regardless of how many players they've done exactly that with"
It's 1 if you want to include Hinske who cried his way out of here.
"it's the general sentiment that moving players rather than keeping them long-term is their MO. That has to change if they ever want to draw any solid free agents in the future."
I think building a minor league system that can consistently feed the major league team is their MO. And winning and money will draw solid free agents here.
I think the flurry of trades is over. Not because I'm an insider and know this, but because what are they going to do, trade away their prospects they finally acquired? There will be trades, just not in that volume.
Can we stop with the (girl dog as a verb) about McLouth? Yeah, he was the greatest thing since sliced bread, and he got traded or whatever. But essentially you are complaining about McCutchen, then, right? He was ready, there was demand for Nate. end of story. LET IT GO.
Steve - thank you. Thank you for pointing out how well they're paid, how there are only what, 800 people employed in that line of work in the world?
At the gathering, someone complained about the season schedule and bumping back and forth to the west coast instead of one trip. Mr. C outlined their style of travel, and said no one should feel sorry for these guys traveling. He acknowledged the beat writers bemoan it, and they don't travel in such luxury. Again, and this comes from me, there's a line for that job anywhere in the business.
Sorry I meant Laroche not larouche. If he had gotten Pierre Larouche in his prime it would have been a great deal.:
"It is a sad state of affairs when the day we acquire a player we are already discussing when and who we can trade them for......... very telling......"
Did I miss somebody say who we could trade him for? Did anybody other than Hostage start this conversation? Was there much response?
Demery,
"Hoss, I loved your rant on local sports radio."
Ha! - Then you would have loved the rant I layed on John Castellano and Jim Bowden on XM's MLB.com Tuesday night after they had Huntington on.
I went off. When I was finished, Castellano paused, and goes "Wow, Jim what do you think?" - He didn't know what to say so he ducked and layed it on Bowden to respond.
"NuHos (and PoH)"
I bet that is the first and only time those words will ever be typed in that close of proximity.
@absolute59:
Keep in mind also that NH was one of the reasons that the Cleveland FO acquired Cliff Lee in the first place. I don't think talent evalution was the problem on the nixed trade you mention. He took a risk by waiting to get more, and it didn't pan out. It happens.
HEAR YE HEAR YE
Next gathering Special Guest
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Executive Vice president and Director of Media Marketing
Date: December 5th.
Complete information to follow
BFD
It is a sad state of affairs when the day we acquire a player we are already discussing when and who we can trade them for......... very telling.
________________________
Not me, who is discussing when and who we can trade players for. NuHo brought up the 4 mth deal here and that was because of the length of his contract.
Who the Pirates would get for Iwamura, and the fact it could be someone equal to or better than Chavez, did come up immediately. It was a positive factor in evaluating the trade for some, the thinking being we get a player for 4 months and then replace Chavez.
If you thought I was whining about McLouth, I wasn't. I was simply pointing out that he fits the example, if you look at the big picture.
If their MO is building with minor leaguers and young players, it makes little sense to trade someone you'll have for 5 more years for someone you'll have for 1 year. Nit pick all you want. If I'm a player who's a free agent and just about any team other than the Pirates is offering me the same, I'm going there.
Players don't want to sign somewhere, get traded mid-season, then go somewhere else. None of us feel sorry for them, but it's their privilege to feel that way. Expecting them to not, is like expecting an agent to not pull a stupid stunt for a few extra dollars. Most of us don't get it, but it comes with the territory if you're an MLB team.
Absoule
When we talk consider the talent evaluation of NH and company keep in mind that he turned down Cliff Lee,
______________________________
Lee had an era 6.29 in 2007
At the time Neal made the right call, Lee was not worth Bay.
GoBucs
If their MO is building with minor leaguers and young players, it makes little sense to trade someone you'll have for 5 more years for someone you'll have for 1 year.
It does make sense when you don't have a 2nd basemen in the system, the major league team, just like the minor league system has to be addressed when needed.
There is no positive guarantee that the Pirates won't sign Iwamura to a longer contract, there is also no guarantee that they will want to after this season.
There is also no positive that Chavez will be this great pitcher that we gave up in the AL. There is also no guarantee that he won't blow his arm out in April.
@Steve Peagues
I admit that I am not familiar with his involvement in Cleveland getting Cliff Lee. And I understand that he certainly was taking a risk to get more, but I also think there is some talent evaluation involved. What more could you have wanted in a the deal than than a dominant left handed CY Young winner.The fact is that NH did not evaluate Lee to have the talent to be the dominate pitcher he became. (I think even NH would admit that fact) Obviously neither did the Indians FO or a bunch of other team's FO. (Personally I was not excited about that deal in December of 2007. Or course I am not a GM of ML team either)
I'm just saying turning down that trade has to one of the things we have to look at when we evaluate NH's talent evaluation skills.
Go Bucs - re players signing
One thing I'd really like to see this year, and no shots at the FO intended, but they do need to strengthen their ability to relate to these guys. Yeah, I know its a business, but still players make the call and its not a good thing to perhaps give them another reason why they don't want to come here. I would think our reputation hurts us a bit.
Leadoff - Lee and right call, thats what people keep telling me, gotta wait and see how things pan out.
Hindsight is a beautiful thing, guess thats why the FO makes the big bucks??
GoBucs --
I understand where you're coming from on the Chavez deal, and there are few people I know personally who are a bigger fan of Chavey than me for lots of reasons. But I would have been beyond irritated to have a major league team like the Bucs play musical chairs with a position like second place when most of the rotation is made up of contact hitters. So getting a second baseman was a good idea, to me.
So Huntington doesn't sign short-term guys (Hinske, Monroe, Kim) but when he does it's only the player's fault when it doesn't work out?
Crap. I mean contact pitchers.
If they want to hit, that's fine with me too!
Thank you leadoff. I was about to post that Lee was terrible in 07 after a good 06, so bad that he was sent to AAA.
That would've been Neal's MO though. Trade away an established major leaguer for a couple of minor league prospects.
Baseball
So Huntington doesn't sign short-term guys (Hinske, Monroe
Bench players are short term for every team, the Bucs don't hold the market on those types of deals.
After reading the Lincecum story, I decided to look up the 2006 FYP Draft and when seeing the results it was a little surprising that the PBC swung and missed again when drafting…here is the link with the draft tracker mlb.mlb.com/.../search.jsp
My biggest thought was, would the PBC have taken Longoria had he fallen 1 more spot???
I have been thinking about this what pitcher you would want for one game and I am in ont he premise that it should be a pirate pitchr=er and in our lifetime and I wnt to win that game and so I move the rotation around of Blass and the candy manand bob veale and kison to pitch Harvey Haddix. One of the single best pitching performances of all time is for the game I look to fro a repeat perfomance.
More whacks at the roster. MARCH !!!!
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Ants Marching
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absolut69,
You're going to skewer NH for not trading away the team's best player less than two full months on the job?
Wow! I guess Obama should have had every single mess that GWB caused cleaned up by March also. After all, he'd been on the job long enough to know every single person in the entire organization.
If you want to place blame for that one, it belong on BN. He was the one that waited so long to get rid of McClatchey, they could have fired Littlefield sooner and got the ball rolling.
Also, regarding the PBC pulling out of that trade, here's a snippet from Dk:
"Firm word surfaced in the past week that it was the Pirates, not the Cleveland Indians, who pulled out of that five-player trade involving Jason Bay at the winter meetings. The decision, made jointly through the entire chain of command, was that the value for Bay was not enough. "
Also, here's a synopsis of Lee's 2007 season:
5-8, 6.29 ERA, 97.1 IP, 1.521 WHIP
He also spent time on the DL and was even demoted midsummer and didn't come back till Sept. as a call up.
That doesn't make it look like the no-brainer that knowing what his next two years stats make it now...does it? Hindsight is always 20-20.
With regard to Lee the three years before 2007 he had 14, 18 and 14 wins. I'm not trying to argue the merits of the trade not made in December of 2007. All I am saying that when we examine all the evidence of NH's talent evaluation ability, we have to consider include that he was wrong with regard to Lee and did not see that he was going to be a dominate left hand starter. As I said before obviously he was not the only GM that did not properly evaluate Lee. However, that does not mean we can't include that non deal with the deals he has made when we consider his ability to evaluate talent.
Abolute -
Actually, Huntington wanted to do the Bay for Lee package but Coonelly nixed it because he thought more could be had waiting for Bay to recover from injury.
So, yes, you should definitely keep that in mind when you consider that Huntington looked at a Cliff Lee with a 6+ ERA and thought he could turn out to be very special.
And that should be kept in mind when looking at Huntington's evaluation of 6+ ERA Ohlendorf, 6+ ERA Hanrahan, Morton, Hart, etc.
Huntington just might know something you don't.
@absolute59: It seems you're calling into question NH's talent evaluation because he didn't see somthing that you, Cleveland, and every other FO in baseball missed. That doesn't sound like a very good measuring stick to me. I guess it would be nice if the PBC had a GM who could see the future, but what're you gonna do, hire Miss Cleo?
I don't know how good NH is, but I don't think trades that don't get made are the best barometer. There's just too many variables and unknowns. Plus there's a good amount of "hindsight is 20/20" going on in any kind of after-the-fact analysis. NH traded Milton Bradley (when he was talented and before he was nuts) for Lee. Maybe he knew Bradley would go ape-poopy and was willing to dump him for an unknown minor league lefty named Lee. Maybe he thought Lee was gonna be huge and was worth the potential star that Bradley seemed to be at the time. Maybe in 2007, Lee looked like he had peaked in 2006 and was on the downhill slope. We just don't know enough about it IMHO, to use it as a yardstick.
I suspect that if you were to look at every FO and factor in the trades they didn't make and draft picks they passed up that later blossomed, overpaid FA signings, etc... I suspect that every FO guesses wrong or right at about the same rate as every other FO. Just my suspicion.
Nutting Hostage
"We get another club's 11th rated best prospect and then we believe he's a lock to become the next Babe Ruth."
meet MarkInDallas
"Huntington looked at a Cliff Lee with a 6+ ERA and thought he could turn out to be very special. And that should be kept in mind when looking at Huntington's evaluation of 6+ ERA Ohlendorf, 6+ ERA Hanrahan, Morton, Hart, etc. Huntington just might know something you don't."