Post-Gazette beat writers Dejan Kovacevic and Chuck Finder blog about the Pittsburgh Baseball Club.
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hopefully I'm right....
FIRST!
Nice.
I was.
SECOND!!!!
Good day inmates...
That was a lot of unhappiness on the morning thread.
The Yankees are on the verge. Yay! Anything that makes the Phillies unhappy makes me happy.
I regret, now, not being good enough this year to honestly ask Santa to give me Rivera for the Pirates bullpen. Maybe one of you who has been totally well behaved could ask.
PoH'
It begs the question as to just what was it exactly that you did that wasn't good enough?
So afraid of the answer....just curious LOL
Here's to hoping for a second chance for you this year, maybe you can sit in his lap and ask with a twinkle in your eye, I mean he could never say not to you. You were always his favorite
I am hoping one thing for this upcoming 2010 season....
That Carlos Garcia can explain what he means (or is it mean what he explains?) in his 1st go around.
WhyDidn't I
___________________________
It doesn't matter what he says, it is going to be dissected to death anyway.
Well I'm fed up for now. I tried to spark some different conversation in the last thread, but the ones that always dominate this blog choose to ignore a unfamiliar voice. It's easy to reach a thousand posts when it's always the same message. I'm going to have to resort to mowing while it's nice out. I'll check in later when the conversation will no doubt be the the pay roll and how the Nuttings are cheap and pocket all the profits.The pay roll and how the Nuttings are cheap and pocket all the profits.The pay roll and how the Nuttings are cheap and pocket all the profits.
I can't wait to see how much faster the Pirate baserunners round first as Garcia "energetically" waves them to go for two.
I lost count of how many baserunners the Pirates had thrown out at second last year due to the lackadaisical way Hill waved them to go for two.
;-)
Just a thought, one of the buzzwords from NH this past trading season was "years of control" and how we picked that up.
Don't more "years of control" directly relate to less payroll? Not in arbitration years or in the first year of arbitration, cost less, right?
the pay roll and how the Nuttings are cheap and pocket all the profits.The pay roll and how the Nuttings are cheap and pocket all the profits.The pay roll and how the Nuttings are cheap and pocket all the profits.
---------
Amen! Now buy me some frigg'in pizza Frank!
Yay! Anything that makes the Phillies unhappy makes me happy.
______________________
I will second that, I thought it was great when the Philly Fans (for now) were chanting the Yankees Suck and the Yankee players after the 3rd outs would look like they were going to throw them the ball and pull it back and not give it to them. Wonder if the National league is going to make the Yanks stop that, would not be surprised.
I was a bit surprised to see the Green Bay fans stoop to the level of the Fans in Philly by booing Farve for 4 quarters, he has a right to work where he wants to and what he gave the Packers should have been unforgettable.
WHERES JOSEPAGAN BEEN? Away! SO FINE! NOW WE ARE GOING TO GO THROUGH THAT WHOLE DOUBLE-POSTER THING AGAIN? FINE!
It is like I have never been away.
How about that Perry Hill thing? I thought that they were just negotiating and he would be back, no problemo? Now we have the New Infield Coaching Messiah, Mr Garcia.
Question: If he is so good, why didn't they hire him last year?
I think Hostage is actually JosePagan, Demery44, Drew71, JAL, DK, Gene Roddenberry and JR.
Jose
1
Now I don't care who you are.... this is funny!
I can't wait to see how much faster the Pirate baserunners round first as Garcia "energetically" waves them to go for two
BFD said -
The payroll should actually be 75-85 million when taking into consideration the wefare money recieved.
========================================
No, that is actually impossible, because if the payroll were $85M, that would be a league average payroll.
Bear with me, now, because this will involve logic...
#1. The fact that the Pirates receive so much revenue sharing money is because they are near the bottom in revenue.
#2. No revenue sharing plan would allow the Pirates to PASS any other team in the revenue totem pole, correct?
#3. So, therefore, the Pirates could NEVER be expected to have a league average payroll if they still have the 3rd smallest attendance and a media contract befitting the 4th smallest market. If their payroll were league AVERAGE, that would mean there would be 14 teams below them on the revenue totem, when in reality there logically would still be only 2 or 3 below them.
Hopefully this makes logical sense to you.
When trying to figure out what the Pirates' payroll might logically support with their revenue sharing check, you have to check out other teams' payroll that are receiving similar checks.
Look at: Tampa Bay, Florida, San Diego
If the Pirates' stated payroll ceiling - which is $55M - is significantly lower than those teams' payrolls, then you have a case.
Hey Jose!
WELCOME BACK! FINE!
Hope you are doing well.
@ Hostage:
I am fine. Happy to be back and energetically waving the runner to second!
Of course, other posters here have invented things like the center of gravity method, the ellipsis and the racquetball method of improving footwork, bat speed and ability to run full-tilt into the nearest wall.
So I challenge you: What have you invented whilst sitting in yonder tree stand, aside from additional screen names to entice and enchant all and sundry here?
@ JAL: SO FINE! BE PRECISE IN YOUR MEANING! SEE IF WE CARE! JUST BECAUSE MAKING SENSE IS IMPORTANT TO YOU WE WILL LET YOU DO THAT! FINE!
2
GGG -- from previous thread, responded via e-mail.
Mark -
I have read your failed theory many times on here..... Face it.... you (and others) will make excuses for everything Bob does no matter how big of a slap on the face it is to the fans.
I (at least) admit that I am against everything the lying, cheat does.......It would take a lot for him to turn my opinion....... FREE PIZZA FOR ALL WOULD HAVE BEEN A START!
I just watched a clip of Carlos..... he has a very large wing span for a man his size.... this should help to get a circular wind tunnel going as he waves baserunners to 2nd, therfore creating faster Home to 2nd times...... great signing...bravo.
Dear JAL, sorry to report a rumor I heard. A RUMOR! I'll try to not break any rules in the future.
Be out for a while - lots to catch up on here.
3
Gee Jose
What did I do to you to get yelled at?
Random interjection on my part, but I'm curious if anyone has heard how the ratings are on the World Series this year. I know America's been begging for November baseball. I'm just curious to see if they're supporting it with their viewing habits. Or if maybe 11:49 P.M. is too late to end a baseball game on a school night during the kids' second marking period.
Jose,
Well this past Saturday I invented the process with which one can blow a perfectly good chance at an 8 point.
I was sitting in my stand for 5+ hours and not seeing much. The leaves are wet and soggy so you couldn't hear much when animals such as deer or squirrels were walking through the woods.
So after 5 hours of sitting there and not seeing or hearing anything, I got a little lax. Just as it was getting dark, around 6:00 PM I was turned in one direction and heard a faint noise behind and below me. I turned my head and there was a really nice 8 point directly below my stand not 12 yards away. I never heard him coming in. So as I slowly tried to turn to face him and raise my bow....he busted me and took off for parts unknown.
All night I just kept hitting my forehead with the palm of my hand uttering "stupid, stupid, stupid".
That's what I invented.
I'm still kicking myself.
_______________________
You would have to watch the game to see that! Oh No!!!
In fact you would have to watch every game to see that, because it probably won't happen.
First base coach's usually just wave to the fans. They have other things to do.
Demery
I did not post anything about the rumor-- Hostage and I just tried to find something about it.
Demery,
The least that you can do is quote a source...any source. I find it amazing that you can "hear a rumor" about a fairly major corporation closing down its primary business unit and it not be anywhere to be found on the interwebs.
The Ogden rumor started on 1170 wwva in Wheeling from a Mr. David Bloomquist. A trusted reporter who said it was a rumor.
I just got my MLB invite to vote for the stars of the year (except the postseason ballot isn't available yet).
THE LEGEND is on the rookie of the year ballot.
Go here to vote:
mlb.mlb.com/.../index.jsp
WOW!
This is not a happy place today!
I think I'll reserve my comments about Carlos Garcia for another day.
NutHo - The Pirates themselves said that this past year the payroll of the club was around $55M. Although on Cot's the stated payroll is $48M, the FO has said with expected performance bonuses, etc. that they estimated $55M.
When I said "usual", I meant that in the sense of what the Pirates feel is the ceiling they can spend with their current revenue streams, including revenue sharing.
If you go back and look at 2001 and 2003 where they had a $58M and $55M payroll and compare them to 2009 dollars and MLB revenue, those payrolls were much higher than the Pirates had in 2009.
I posted the other day how the average payrolls in MLB had risen substantially since that time. $58M in 2001 was actually an average payroll in MLB. So $58M in 2001 is equal to around $85M in 2009.
So, we don't need to speculate what would happen if the Pirates raised payroll to league average. We already saw it. The Pirates ran a deficit and needed to dump Aramis Ramirez's salary to avoid financial problems.
The next year, they went down to $32M, which is probably a level nearer to 2009's $50M.
I haven't run the exact numbers on all those years, so that is just a ballpark estimate on my part, but the Cubs are an example of a team that has had a consistent revenue stream, and here are their numbers since 2001....
--------------------------------------------------------
Chicago Cubs Payroll
* 2009: $134,809,000
* 2008: $118,345,833
* 2007: $ 99,670,332
* 2006: $ 94,424,499
* 2005: $ 87,032,933
* 2004: $ 90,560,000
* 2003: $ 79,868,333
* 2002: $ 75,690,833
* 2001: $ 64,715,833
------------------------------------------------
You can easily see just how expensive the 2001 Pirates' payroll of $58M was.
When the Pirates cut payroll in 2004, their payroll of $32M was 35% of the Cubs' payroll. In 2009 terms, 35% of the Cubs' payroll would be $48M. We should probably assume that the $32M needed to be a bit of an over correction to make up for the losses of 2002-2003.
So, you see from 2004-2009, the Pirates have roughly spent the same amount relative to their revenue status, which has grown slightly due to the overall growth in MLB revenues.
In 2009 terms, that would be about $55M.
BFD
Would it help if I chip in and buy you a pizza, I can meet you over at College Hill. I can lie and tell you that Frank told me to buy you one on him if that will work.
You never did ask anyone at the gathering whether the pizza was good or not, maby Frank thought the stuff was not worth paying for! You know overvalued hunk of pizza.
www.wwva.com/.../single_podcast.html
Click on the what's the buzz section and you have to listen till the 1:45 mark. He thinks it's not true just a rumor.
Hostage, I can't believe we were finally figured out. 21 is an amazing guy.
POH
________________
Andrew is there also, you can stuff the ballod box, just keep tapping your finger.
If we could get everyone one this blog site to start tapping their fingers we could get Andrew and the Legend a lot of votes.
>I turned my head and there was a really nice 8 point directly below my stand not 12 yards away. I never heard him coming in.
Sounds like you had your own personal Elmer Fudd moment. :-)
Not that it compares to the frustration I'm sure you felt in that moment...but it reminds me of one time I was hiking in the Spanish Sierra Nevada mountains. We crested a peak and I was taken with the view. I exclaimed "Wow - look at that view!" just as we crested which revealed about 5 large mountain antelopes about 15 feet away from us on the other side of the crest. Of course, they spooked and took off at an unbelievable speed striaght down the mountain.
leadoff -
That is funny.
----
My sources told me Frank felt the Pizza was over priced' therfore not worth buying..... he opted for the much cheaper pizza down the street with the moldy, spoiled cheese. He also opted for the .25 cent flat beer from the other establishment. He spent the next 3 days bent over the toilet, but Bob Nutting was happy FC only expensed $4 on the corporate card.
JK - ratings
I saw a headline somewhere while surfing today that this WS saved MLB a million, didn't read it though
And haven't heard anything about ratings, I do know though at my house, the ratings are 0.0000000000000000000000
Think I'll duck back under the bed for awhile, these food fights can be dangerous...
IT'S A CULTURE OF RUMORS!
Srsly.
Juniata
WS rating rating are their highest in 5 years--Game 3 was 9.1 rating and 18 share up from 6.1 13 for last year's game 3. 3 game average up 42% from last year
Demery, I can't believe we were finally figured out. 21 is an amazing guy.
I saw that A-Rod was the hero last night and it reminded of an Artie Lange dig at him..."I'm just glad that A-Rod started doing roids in October too!"
Mark,
Wow, I'd say your experience ranks right up there with mine from Saturday, if not even worse.
At least we can relate.
Now were getting to the bottom of this, will you reveal your sources?
We know that in the pizza world your source could be blackballed, but in the world of pro baseball a man has been accused of cheapness. We have to take this to a higher court.
"Demery, I can't believe we were finally figured out. 21 is an amazing guy."
This blog is not your little play toy and the way you are using it is disrespectful of everyone here.
Not that you care.
Leadoff -
The illegals painting the bobble heads leaked the news through a very complicated communication system of tapping on the cement walls of the dungeon Bob keeps them locked in.
NutHo - Funny thing is I have a similar story involving a bear. In that case, I was more than happy that the bear was spooked and ran away, though.
JAL, you're correct about the trade with the Nats. It was not a salary dump. It was Neal trying to outthink the room. Using new wave nerd geek sabre metric stats.
But carry on as we move to a championship club.
The illegals painting the bobble heads leaked the news through a very complicated communication system of tapping on the cement walls of the dungeon Bob keeps them locked in
_____________________
That explains it all! Case closed!
I'll never give out my secret about being two different people.
IT'S A CULTURE OF DUAL IDENTITIES!
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the Phillies will pull out a victory tonight.
"Well I'm fed up for now. I tried to spark some different conversation in the last thread, but the ones that always dominate this blog choose to ignore a unfamiliar voice. It's easy to reach a thousand posts when it's always the same message. I'm going to have to resort to mowing while it's nice out. I'll check in later when the conversation will no doubt be the the pay roll and how the Nuttings are cheap and pocket all the profits.The pay roll and how the Nuttings are cheap and pocket all the profits.The pay roll and how the Nuttings are cheap and pocket all the profits."
________________________________________________
Terrbear,
You're right! We got a bunch of Justin Timberlake's on this board crying a river
NuttingHostage, wait I mean Demery44,
I'm not sure we were dumping a whole lot of salary in the Nats trade??
JAL - could you add the MLB stars ballot link to the morning links?
Thanks POH, I just placed my votes. It's a shame, but the 2 most deserving players for defensive player of the year weren't included. Those are of course Jack Wilson and Nyjer Morgan.
That's the 2 most important defensive positions and the 2 best players. Jack Wilson was way ahead on the ESPN webgems, and Nyjer was way ahead of anyone else on UZR ratings.
Half of the players they mention only have marginally decent UZR ratings. They are obviously going by errors only, which is outdated.
Drew -
Earlier today (on the morning thread) you wrote:
>>Sometimes there's a tendency in the asylum to take an issue and blow it up into armaggedon to prove or disprove a point about the front office.<<
Sometimes? Tendency? Dude, you are the new master of the understatement.
Does anyone else get the e-mails from the pirates.com? Check out the letter I received today from FC. What balls he has.
Go ahead NutHo et al....have a field day.....
November 2, 2009
The following is an excerpt from an open letter to Pirates fans from club president Frank Coonelly.
You can read the full letter, plus check out The Pirates Blueprint, online now at pirates.com.
Dear Pirates Fan,
As we begin the 2010 offseason, I would like to take this opportunity to let you know how grateful we are that you continued to show your passion through some very difficult decisions to accelerate the overhaul of the organization during the 2009 season. Like you, we are extremely disappointed with the performance of our Major League Club. But, for the reasons illustrated in The Pirates Blueprint, we are just as encouraged about direction of the organization and its future.
As we have said from the beginning, we are not interested in being just an average Major League Club. Our unwillingness to accept mediocrity has caused you additional aggravation over the short term. We regret that this was necessary but you deserve much more than a mediocre team. In the fine tradition of this city, you deserve a team that competes for championships. The bold steps taken this year, I hope, have demonstrated that our only interest is in giving you that type of team again.
Check out The Pirates Blueprint at
I cannot emphasize enough the appreciation we have for your continued support of the Pittsburgh Pirates. We understand that we have tested your patience but hope you understand that we have done so in order to make the blueprint for success in Pittsburgh a reality and to do so as quickly as possible.
Sincerely,
Frank Coonelly
President, Pittsburgh Pirates
Sure can do that
Those of us at the gathering received a copy of The Pirate Blueprint.
Congrats to Donnie Veal - AFL pitcher of the week
www.oursportscentral.com/.../releases
------------------------------------------
Tabata now hitting .344 as well, which is in the top 5 of players with as many games as he's played.
It will be interesting to see if Veal actually makes the rotation out of Spring Training! I'm guessing they are going to want to see more of him in the minors as a starter before he starts in the majors, but what he's done so far in the AFL is very impressive.
Teams usually send their good hitting prospects there, so he's doing it against some good competition.
Veal has the stuff to really be a top of the rotation starter, and as we've seen, he's got amazing K-ability. That is really what the Pirates are needing.
Neal's dumpster diving just might have gotten us a real HR threat in Jones AND a top of the rotation starter.
Mr. Nutting was very upset that Andrew McCutcheon won rookie of the year.
He now has to raise his salary from $400,000 to $410,000.
HEAR YE HEAR YE
Next gathering Special Guest
Lou DePaoli
Executive Vice president and Director of Media Marketing
Date: December 5th.
Complete information to follow
My-Key-Tee & all -
I appreciate Frank's frankness.
What other president would admit that their fans are fed up and that the administration's moves are 'testing the patience' of their fans? None.
I continue to the Coonelly has been more up front, open and accessible than any other president in MLB and in Bucco history (at last that I can remember..)
Demery / Self,
We should issue ole 21 a challenge.
We ask DK to investigate his claim you and I are the same person.
If we are one person having our jollies, DK can delete both registrations and we will never come back.
But if / when DK validates 21's claims are baseless, he must go away never to return.
JAL,
Does the Blueprint call for more sleeves next season?
Doesn't mean that it makes tolerating the 17th losing season in a row any more tolerable, but...
The last month or two was horrendous. We are in such desperate need of an experienced, legit slugger/leader. Like right now.
But then again, I'm sure many here will comlpain that the LAST thing we need is another expensive free agent.
Hostage/Self, sounds like a plan to me. I'm all in.
Hoss, what are we in the mood for dinner tonight? Pizza? Frank's buying.
I can't seem to find an actual stated goal or objectine in the blueprint.
only..."we are not interested in being just an average Major League Club"
Now we know what we don't want to be (I think). What do we want to be? A little above average? Way above average? What is average? .500? how much above average is Okie Dokie?
terrbear,
I'm glad to read, perhaps not glad as much as disappointed, that you are drawing the same vibes as I am concerning those who post on here. It does leave the impression that if you are not one of the "in-group" who constantly dominate the conversation, that any discussion or questions that an "out-of-the-group" blogger may have are overlooked. I know I also get annoyed at the constant bickering and criticism - same old, same old about Nutting, Huntingdon, and the whole FO. If it's all that bad, then explain how to better the situation or at least intersperse some positive thoughts as well. Perhaps a glass of Kool-aid every now and then would be a step in the right direction. This is my criticism, which I'll make just one time, and will not continue to harp on it. I think it is important that those who may not comment as much, but who are sincerely interested in offering some questions, opinions, or thoughts be not overlooked because all in all, there are dedicated Pirate fans outside the "group" who would really like to talk some baseball as well. Sorry for sounding like a bobblehead; i have stepped down from the soapbox. Now on with the blogs.
Hostage/Self,
Since we're the same person, what is the arrangemebt with wife swapping?
Coach - yeah, I agree that some "solutions" and otherwise positive-talk on this blog is good to see, instead of the complaining most of the time.
I think we all love our Buccos, otherwise we wouldn't be here. Nutting probably would ever spend the money like NYY or Philly or any other team, so we should just focus on other issues.
You / I took out a package of ground venison last night to make a venison chili taco salad for supper tonight don't you remember?
As far as the wife is concerned, is it really swapping if we are the same person???
My-Tee-Key, oops My-Key-Tee, oo
I think the blueprint might be the same thing that was sent out to the season ticket holders, the letter sounds about the same.
Coachrv - exclusion, what you said is very true.
Question: Is the main concern not how much of an increase
in spending takes place by the Pirates but rather a
more accurate improvement in evaluating players
so that an increase in spending will definitely
secure better quality players. Granted, an improved
outlay will help, but the bottom line is getting more
bang for the buck - or should I say Bucs. Mistakes
will continue along the way, but better evaluations
will yield better players.
MY-Kee
________________________
Frank and NH have said many times they want to put together a team can win the WS and have a pipeline of talent from the minor leagues at all times.
They do not want to do what the Marlins do, win the WS and blow up the team the next year.
Models of other teams seems to be more of what they are trying to accomplish, like the Twins and Braves.
This pretty much says it for me too.--------------------------------------
I'll check in later when the conversation will no doubt be the the pay roll and how the Nuttings are cheap and pocket all the profits.
This is thetopic day after day....post after post.....and that was 6 months ago.This blog should be called ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The pay roll and how the Nuttings are cheap and pocket all the profits blog.The sun rises and 10,000 posts later.................................................................
The pay roll and how the Nuttings are cheap and pocket all the profits.
Good afternoon inmates near and far.
POH, and Coach: thanks for trying to bring some real baseball and sanity to this blog today. The morning thread was absolutely awful stuff.
JJ: Does the guest at the next gathering have anything to do with Pirates radio?
Can someone explain to me exactly what happened last night when the Phillies scored their 2nd run? Radio announcer said there was no umpire call at home, then a throw to 2nd and a put out there?
Does anyone think we will have a game 6 Wednesday?
Hostage
Nope--says nothing about sleeves.
1st time poster
Mark in Dallas- enjoy your posts
Go Bucs!
Coach
Is the main concern not how much of an increase
in spending takes place by the Pirates but rather more accurate improvement in evaluating play so that an increase in spending will definitely secure better quality players.
_____________________________
I believe at this time, an increase and a decrease in spending can both be beneficial. I don't think spending is the same issue as evaluating players, two separate issues, but both are essential for the rebuilding of the franchise. Kind of like saying what do you need the most to live on, food or water.
Larry
____________________________
Larry I am not going to complain, if we can get a 27 year old slugger that we can keep 3 years, I am for it.
Slugger's don't grow on trees, anytime we can get an established one and the FO is willing to shell out for one, go for it.
I subscribe to the I want to win every time the Bucs step on a field theory, not some mythical time in the future that may never come.
@ Leadoff
Now that right there is funny...I don't care who you are.
Srsly
>They do not want to do what the Marlins do, win the WS and blow up the team the next year.
>Models of other teams seems to be more of what they are trying to accomplish, like the Twins and Braves.
====================================
Here's a great question...
Which is the more satisfying model to have? Would you rather have one great run, try to win a championship and then have to start again?
Or be perpetually at the cusp and never make the big CC Sabathia or Matt Holliday trade to get that missing piece and be just perpetually very good?
For example, the Brewers got CC for just the stretch run, and gave up 4 prospects - including their top prospect LaPorta (power hitting outfielder 7HR/52gms) and another very good outfield prospect that came up in September and hit +.300.
So, now if Fielder leaves, they've got no one to replace his HRs.
Personally, I would rather not jeopardize the future of the franchise just to win a WS with a rent-a-player ever.
My-Kee
What is funny about that?
Johnny Ray -
Thanks. I'm glad someone actually reads them. :-)
Mark
__________________________
Neither one, settling for less than a WS is wrong IMO, trading off too many pieces of the system to achieve one WS is also wrong.
In other words, hypothetically if we would have needed a piece, say a Holliday, this year and it would have taken Alvarez and Alderson to get him, I would not have done it.
My-Key-Tee,
Hmmm...why do I get a sense of deja vue when I ready Smiling Franks letter??
Could it be it was just 4 short years ago we received an eerily similar letter from Kevin McClatchy promising pretty much the same exact things?
And who owned the club back then? - Bob Nutting.
And who owns it now? - Bob Nutting.
So why don't I buy Frank's bullcrap?
Because fool me once Bob Nutting, shame on you. Fool me twice Bob Nutting, shame on me.
Coonelly needs to shut his pie hole and put up results. - The time for his hollow words are long gone.
----------------------------------------------------------------
A letter from Kevin McClatchy
10/01/2005 8:00 AM ET
Saturday, October 1, 2005
Dear Pirates Fans,
I wanted to thank you for the amazing support you have shown the Pittsburgh Pirates during our 2005 campaign. Our attendance grew from 1.58 million in 2004 to over 1.8 million this year, which is phenomenal. This comes in the wake of a disappointing season on the field where our record fell well below my expectations, and yours as fans.
Over the last three years, this organization has had to make some very difficult decisions to get our house in order. We've done so, and because of hard work and perseverance, the Pirates are now in a much better baseball and financial position than we have been for years.
Dave Littlefield accepted the challenge of improving our minor league system and producing players from that system for the major league team. We have seen the results of those efforts as we've brought young, talented players like Zach Duke, Chris Duffy, Ryan Doumit, Brad Eldred, Paul Maholm, Nate McLouth, Ian Snell, Jose Bautista and Tom Gorzelanny to the major league club. They join a solid nucleus of players who continue to improve like All-Star Jason Bay, Jack Wilson, Jose Castillo, Humberto Cota, Oliver Perez, Mike Gonzalez, Salomon Torres and others. By far, this is the best group we have had in years, and there are still other talented, young players waiting to join us.
Now we need to hire the best manager possible to ensure that this group of players continues to grow and develop. Just as important, because of the tough decisions we've made over the past several years, we have the flexibility to grow our payroll next season by more than 30% from where we are today to the upper $40 million range. With these increased financial resources, Dave can obtain additional players that will complement our roster and help us to win.
We are very optimistic about 2006 and beyond, and we would not be in this position without the loyal support of you, the Pittsburgh Pirates fans. Thank you, again, for coming to PNC Park "the Best Ballpark in America" this summer. We look forward to a very busy and productive offseason.
Best wishes,
Kevin McClatchy CEO & Managing General Partner
leadoff---let me take a stab at why it's funny. That model doesn't work. It does, however, keep costs down.
I suppose Bob Nutting was kidding when he wrote this letter just two years ago.....
Oh these bozos and their letters. - Still waiting for the first one to proven even remotely accurate.
-------------------------------------
Letter from Robert Nutting to Pirates fans
Saturday, January 13, 2007
Dear Pirates Fans:
Today, Kevin McClatchy and I announced that we have mutually requested Major League Baseball approve a change of control within the ownership group of the Pirates from Kevin to myself. This change will provide absolute clarity regarding the ownership structure of the team.
As Chairman and control person for the organization, my role is to provide strategic leadership to the organization. As CEO, Kevin remains responsible for the day-to-day operations of the ballclub.
I understand how important the Pirates are to you, the fans, and this community. Like you, I believe there is absolutely nothing more important than for our team to be able to win, not just for one year, but on a consistent basis. I am committed to providing Kevin and General Manager Dave Littlefield the greatest amount of support possible to accomplish that. Our fans deserve it, our community deserves it and I expect it.
In order to consistently succeed on the field, it's critical that we spend our resources effectively, while continuing to build our team from within. This is the plan I firmly believe in. It is one that Dave was brought here to develop and execute, one that he and Kevin are accountable for and one that I have confidence is working.
I am energized about our core group of exciting, young, talented players. We have one of the youngest teams in all of baseball and now will be able to keep them together for several years. Coming off last season's second half success, I am confident that this team, under the leadership of Jim Tracy, will continue to improve. I very much look forward to the 2007 season.
I am very proud to be the Chairman of this historic franchise and want you to be just as proud to be one of our fans. Thank you for your continued support of the Pittsburgh Pirates. I hope to see you at PNC Park this season, and for many more seasons to come.
Robert Nutting, Chairman of the Board
Pittsburgh Pirates
Read more: www.post-gazette.com/.../753508-63.stm
NH -- Which is more important to you, W-L or Payroll Size. I mean if you have to say one or the other?
NuHo--thanks for that dose of reality. Looks like the earlier word document that FC must have cut and pasted. Bucco fans, they're like Mikey, they'll eat anything.
This portion of the Nutting letter cracks me up.
"I am energized about our core group of exciting, young, talented players. We have one of the youngest teams in all of baseball and now will be able to keep them together for several years."
Two years later, said "core group of exciting, young, talented players" he was going to keep together for several years have all been salary dumped.
Arriba,
Wow buddy, you are getting quite cynical lately.
You are starting to sound like me.
"We should issue ole 21 a challenge."
NuttingHostage/Demery/ and probably Jose Pagan too.
I have unequivocal evidence which proves that you have dual registrations on this board and are talking to yourself. I suggest that we pick one person that we both agree will be honest and fair (POH perhaps?). I will email this evidence to that person.
If that person agrees with me that the evidence clearly and without question supports my claim, I don't care what you do. If that person says that I'm lying, I'll leave this board.
"NH -- Which is more important to you, W-L or Payroll Size. I mean if you have to say one or the other?"
JHadar,
He couldn't care less about either. All he cares about is getting attention.
NutHo,
After reading those two letters, it's not even funny any more. It's infutiating.
I've got to get to this next gathering. Exec VP & Dir of Mktg! Should be comical.
Arriba
I think have Mikey confused with someone all he would eat was Life cereal
21,
I'm not interested in opionion.
Send your evidence to the Post Gazette and/or DK.
They should be able to prove or disprove by email addresses or IP addresses that you are lying.
One other condition, when you are proven wrong, before you leave for good, you must apologize to Demery, Jose, and all members of the blog for boring everyone with your obsessive nonsense.
Not that you will, that would require character and manhood.
@ Everyone: I'm Hostage. I am also Demery. I am also JJ. In fact, I have incontrovertible proof in my briefcase of the names of 150 members of this forum who are actually Phillies' fans.
I'm Spartacus!
@JAL: I wasn't yelling at you - I was just kidding! if you recall, this was a running joke Hostage/Me/Demery had going a couple of weeks ago. Sorry, though if it came across wrong. My Hostage/Demery/JJ self apologizes.
I am also 21's The best, WDIGTSRoberto, Ghengis Khan, Pope Pius IX, Paul Long and Court Philosopher for King Louis XIV.
Signed,
Jose & Company
4
I too agree with those of you who don't want to hang out with the repetitive, jobless, clueless, uninformed, boring, uninformed boors who have taken over this site as their own personal chat room like a bunch of 11-year old girls at a slumber party.
It's a real shame that DK of the PG doesn't step in to do something about it. It's almost as if he endorses the behavior of the moron set by allowing it to continue.
MarkInDallas -- you are fighting a losing battle. These people don't care about stats, metrics or even FACTS They remind me of my uncle who is near 60 and still believes the steel mills are coming back. They live in a totally different reality. A sad and paranoid reality.
@ Hostage Self. The dog ate the venison, remember when I/we cleaned it up? I think I should forgive me for missing the shot on the buck.
Seriously, there is a Groundhog Day sort of quality to the Annual Dear Fans Letter, isn't there? Maybe the special guest at the next convocation could shed some light on who actually wrote the orginal and why they keep re-using it.
The Many Faces of Jose
5
Hostage,
My evidence is an email from an individual employed by Post Gazette.
Hostage/Self, those letters were scary.
I'm glad a championship is right around the corner. I was getting worried.
How is it that Hostage asks where you've been and then you magically appear?
21, you are a liar and very weird.
@ 21: How tantalizing! Would this be the same guy that runs stop signs in our neighborhood whilst throwing newspapers at houses in the morning?
@ Hostage: Did you know that you aren't you and that you are actually someone else who also doesn't know they are you?
Does that mean you can stop paying taxes?
6
I, for one, do not believe that anyone has multiple registrations. Although it has made for fascinating conversation. I just don't think anybody's life would be that pathetic. But, that's just my opinion.
"@ 21: How tantalizing! Would this be the same guy that runs stop signs in our neighborhood whilst throwing newspapers at houses in the morning? "
Nope.
"21, you are a liar and very weird."
Hostage called me a liar today too.
Wait, posting 60 times a day on a baseball blog out of season about eating pizza somehow isn't pathetic?
@ 21: Because we are the same person! In fact, everyone here, but you, is me. However, you may actually be me as well and we are all engaged in some sort of Kafkaesque dream in which I/we think we are actually separate individuals. It is rather magical, isn't it?
An employee of the P-G has told me your shoe size. I have the email to prove it. They know everything about us/me.
6 or 7, I can't remember.
Veal, playing for the Scottsdale Scorpions, didn't allow a run in two starts last week, allowing only five hits with two walks and seven strikeouts in 7 2/3 innings. He leads Fall League starters with a 0.71 ERA and is tied for the league lead with two wins. He ranks second in opponent batting average (.159) and third in walks plus hits per inning pitched (0.71).
I'm not sure exactly why - but I have a good feeling about Veal in the future as a starter. Anybody else?
JLP,
Believe it. Someone's life is that pathetic. In fact, this same person had dual registrations on another message board. That would be NuttingHostage and is other name on that board was Gayfor21sthebest until he was banned.
Go lightly from our blog now
Leave at your own chosen speed
I'm not the ones you are babe
I don't you what you need
You say you're lookin' for someone
Who's always weak but never strong
Someone that you can blame babe,
Whenever games go wrong
Someone who will cringe upon the floor
Well, I ain't you babe
No, No, No, I ain't you babe
I'm just the one you bore
@ 21: Eureka!! That proves it! And to top it off, as if by magic JLP appeared and posted right when no one had even mentioned him/her/them/us!!!
It's a conspiracy I tell you!!
8 (I checked)
I figured that out later but thanks for making the point :)
Digital dan
And Veal was chosen the AFL Pitcher of the week
I am going to take a nap now. Have to get up early and write all the posts for tomorrow's blog.
I'm Spartacus....
Glad to hear that Deep Email is not the local P-G driver guy that nearly took out me and the dog...
Good night Mrs Calabash, wherever you are.
9
PS: I'm liking Veal's potential as well.
I care about the facts! I care about the stats! I care about baseball! I'm here, Mendoza!
JHadar - I'm not sure what that was, but I was riveted to that post.
BSKOF goes to Veal for his pitching.
Has anyone else put Rivera on their Christmas List for the Pirates? We need to make an impression here, people!
JAL - thanks. I don't know how many people get the MLB info so I want them to know they can vote for our guys, who were both bright spots this season!
A belated welcome to Johnny Ray
@JHadar: You probably knew this already. However, Mr. Zimmerman wrote that song for Mr. and Mrs. John R. Cash.
Digital: Thank you for soe real baseball talk. Because you seem to follow the AFL much more closely than the majority of us, can you answer a question for me? And JAL or Joey Bats might know this also:
How would you judge the level of players/competition Veal faces in this league? Are the majority of these players vets with MLB experience? Or are they mostly minor leaguers looking to impress? Is this similar to spring training play? I appreciate the feedback/education on this topic.
JLP -- And all the time I thought it was his adios to Joan Baez; do you know who it was that could take the dark out of the daytime and paint the night time black?
PoH -- There was a typo, line 4 should be: "I don't know what you need" Just expressing a little frustration with the high degree of nonsense today.
21 - Oh, PLEASE let me see it! Pretty please. :-) Actually, I seriously doubt that NutHo and Demery are the same. They act too much like Scut Farkus and Grover Dill to be the same person.
Anyway, even if NutHo is double posting, I would not want him to leave the board. First, it provides a Wile E Coyote to the Road Runner. Second, I'm sure there are lots of people out there that have the same kind of mistaken ideas as NutHo/Demery/BFD/Arriba and are looking for some answers to their quite legitimate questions.
The only thing I take issue with is the merciless vilifying of Bob Nutting. I'm not saying the guy is a saint or savior. I don't know him from Adam. It seems he's known as a frugal businessman, and I'm sure that carries over to the Pirates as well. But I just have to feel bad for the guy and his family when people just mercilessly throw accusations around when by everything have seen tells me he is just doing the best he can within the framework of what he understands to be good business practices.
Everything that I have read suggests that Nutting took control of the Pirates specifically because he didn't like the disorganized player acquisitions under McClatchy. To then try to blame Nutting for those decisions is just weird.
McClatchy wasn't a great CEO by any means, but he did help get PNC Park built, and so I'm sure the people involved, and YES Nutting was in that group, were going to give him some slack and time to prove could either make good decisions or not.
bleacherreport.com/.../203515-how-kevin-mcclatchy-made-pittsburgh-the-city-of-champions-again
Form letters to shareholders are the same no matter what business you are in. Wow, what a smoking gun that a rosy "State of the Pirates" letter sounds the same now and then. Just substitute any losing team's logo and it will read the same. The proof is not there. The proof will be when a couple of years from now we see that the overall health of the entire organization has improved substantially.
That's right, it will take at least that long to make an assessment. The Pirates already took their shortcut - which was to trade their most valuable players. Otherwise, it would take 6-10 years to see if they were very good.
I hate to disappoint you......
And he has a history of doing this on another message board too.
- Mendoza
First of all, welcome! Secondly, you are right for many of them. But I don't write for them. I write for the people who lurk on the board and read their rantings.
For the people you mention, even if the Pirates do put together a winning organization, they will always be saying "Oh, if they weren't so cheap it wouldn't have taken so long" or "If Nutting would just spend $10M more for a closer we could have had 2 WS rings instead of losing to the Yankees".
So, yes, it's a losing proposition if I were trying to convince those that I address. I don't pretend to have that kind of power.
hi.
just popped in from a busy day...read much of morning and afternoon posts...and i wanted to confirm something that 21 or someone posted awhile ago.
it's true. there IS no drew71. i'm one of hossy's many many many undercover accounts.
mrs drew, on the other hand, exists. boy does she ever!
i'm running out to watch the game with some friends, so i'm out again. enjoy the fireworks, either in Philly or in the asylum!
or as my asylum hero might say,
kthxbai
Drew,
I never said anything about you.
sorry 21, must have been another...i was skimming quickly. But i meant it as a compliment. To whoever wrote it, i thought it was humorous and thoroughly enjoyed it.
kthx-really-bai
Jose, niot a person alive could even under the strong drugs you so fondly speak about or under the withdrawls from your medications that you need so obviously would believe for a moment you could have my upbeat drop of blood in you
Radio Wave,
I am definitely not an expert in the AFL. Looking at the rosters, I would say it is mostly minor leaguers. There are several Pirate minor league players on the team. So, yes - Veal is not facing current Major league players, but he still has to get the ball over the plate which he seems to be getting better at. Besides, even though this is minor league competition, he did win pitcher of the week - so he did better than the other pitchers.
What is going on with this place, is it an asylum or something??
I don't think there is any law against double identies, I don't think if someone or several are doing that, I don't think there is any rule against calling them out on it, likewise there is no rule against breaking bread with the uppity ups at PNC during the season and being bubbily optimistic all the time, think of Roger Rabbit when they enter cartoon worlkd, conversely there are no laws to my knowledge against harpooning the PBC FO at every move, here think of the political advertising we unfortunately see, a spin on everything.
To me, IMO, it was good to hear people in the middle speak about the we-the, good/bad, right/left sides and how everyone should and does have the right to say as they feel and not be shunned.
DigitalDan -
Yeah, I think Veal is going to be a stud. You know when I perked up about Veal? When Sean Burnett was traded to the Nats and he made that infamous "laughing stock" comment. He also said that the Pirates were going to be all right and Donnie Veal had dominant stuff - much more than he himself had.
Since then, Kerrigan made a change to his delivery to help him repeat his motion, and Veal has started to prove the point.
He's got a long way to go, but Veal could actually be the kind of top of the rotation stud that we need.
Radio
The AFL players are mostly young but not real young. Only a few on each team are on the 40 man roster for their clubs. Still, it good to se Veal throwing strikes.
For example, the oldest players on Scottsdale are 24 or 25 with one catcher being 26 and the youngest are one at 20, one at 21 and several at 22.
Digital: Thanks for the feedback. Now i have a better understanding of what will be on TV Saturday.
Leadoff, never lose your optimisim. Yes, I know, I can't spell. Besides, if you keep your current position/attitude you get to tell an entire blog of 150 "I told you so" when the time comes.
Ok, baseball, good thing
AFL, well we have Friday and Chase D not exactly kicking the snot out of pitching there, Tabata is doing ok, average wise, and last I read Moskos is getting lit up era wise, but with few innings one bad one can balloon that.
Veal? We'll see, but I'd bet there's another Rule 5 pickup on the horizion in 2010. I remember back in the Thee Rivers/Leyland days, we picked up a pitcher from Montreal, Bautista, me being naieve, or moreso back then was pulling for him, but he was shipped back, the story was we wanted to win now, and with a Rule 5 player, you are playing shorthanded. Lets see what happens next month, IMO another pickup, means 2011-12-13, still developing.
leadoff, I am scared to death of a trade. I will give NH time, but to me his trade record is not strong, with the exception of the Yankees/Nady deal. Right now if I'm a GM, Neal is someone I want to play poker with, IMO when he wants to move someone, he yells "ALL IN" far too easily.
So Littlefield was far too fussy to trade, remember the other GM quotes (except for the Cubs and Ramirez trade of course) and Neal is the wheeler-dealer, results still to be seen, I'd feel better with a middle of the road guy, to be honest right now
Guys,just to let you in on a little secret. 21 must be my wife.
Why else did she call me a pathological liar. LOL
NuHo/Dem/JP/DK you thought you had us all fooled. However we are smarter than that, we saw right through your little game. No skin off my nose as my gma used to say, but, and this is important......what was I saying? Hmmmm, did you see the giant bugs crawling all over PoH? I LOVE these new MEDS
My question for many on here is this....
NuHo uncovered the same pathetic letter which was sent out atleast 2 other times, and instead of being infuriated with Nutting and co, you all are screaming at him.
You all should be calling BS on the FO........saying show us proof instead of talk,
Maybe I am wrong here, but this forum is to talk Pirates.....it does not specify what is "game" such as stats or line up combos as some on here are complaining about NoHu, Demery, myself and others discuss. Nothing is of greater importance to this the PBC other than 1) the losing of 17 years and 2) the payroll which is directly related to the ownership and their lack of dedication to fielding a winning club and 3) the Pizza Frank denied all attendees of.
Football related
- what does Matt Millen know about football? He is the FC of the Detriot Lions
- How large is Jaws head?
Biz: You mentioned the Rule 5 draft. When does it occur? Is it during the winter meetings? How does it work? What player might the Pirates "expose" in the draft? is there a middle infielder we might get in the draft?
here is all you need to know about rule 5
buccofans.wikispaces.com/Rule+5+Draft
"B" old buddy
Matt Millen is not the FC of the Lions he was axed last year as a sacrifice. This season he is doing "color" on the Big Ten network for PSU. Other than that little faux pas, you are right as usual when speaking of this blog and its proclivities. If it weren't for the Farkus/Dill gang we would all be drunk and stoned on kool-aid (or is it aide). I also believe that Jaws and Nuho are the same person also and that u sir are secretly Robert Shaw/Richard Dreyfuss cloned
It does take place during winter meetings, usually last day, and any player not on the 40 who has 4 or 5 years in the system can be drafted.
JH--I thought it was Jagger/Richards.
MarkInDallas said "I'm sure there are lots of people out there that have the same kind of mistaken ideas as NutHo/Demery/BFD/Arriba and are looking for some answers to their quite legitimate questions."
What "mistaken ideas" are you talking about? That I am skeptical that this FO knows what it is doing? That I am skeptical that they will spend when they need to? That I am skeptical that the offer to Freddy was a legitimate attempt to keep him? Or maybe it's that I don't think any team can vy for a world championship year in and year out by relying on having a farm system so strong that once you lose a great player to free agency you can replace him with another without missing a beat, because that's what you are buying into if you agree with the FO. I'd say Minnesota has come closest to it, and it isn't working for them anymore, either. Just like it's not working for Oakland. Yeah, I'd say I had quite legitimate, valid concerns. By the way,I agree that Veal could be a stud.
No, I'm Spartacus!
Millen was fired Sept 2008 now a broadcaster.
If there is proof that someone (anyone) is posting under more than one name on here, I for one would be interested in seeing it. It would go a long way in assisting some us in determining the credibility of our fellow posters. Whether pro-FO, anti, or in the middle, that type of behavior would be utterly pathetic, in my humble opinion.
I realize Millen was axed.... He was horrible in his GM role with Det. That is my point. why would ESPN hire him to do the pregame for MNF with his track record, and who would buy anything he is selling..........
Holla if you here me..........what the
ohhh also......
Amen Arriba
BTW, there is nothing to stop anyone from discussing whatever they want baseball related or blog related in the rules. There is also no rule that requires people to respond to specific proposals for discussion topics. If the topic is interesting, people will respond. I, for one, have no interest in trying to determine which players might be non-tendered out of the hundreds that might not be and to then determine out of those that might not be, who of those the Bucs should go after. It's kind of a question that would get the "no soup for you" in the Q and A, but if enough people are interested, have at it.
Sorry, I'll go back to thinking about my mistaken ideas.
LV Pirate
No proof and I can't think of any reason someone would try to do that.
JAL: Thanks for the rule 5 info. Tonight's game is off to a flying start. For one, I hope Phils can hold this lead.
Sometimes with optimism one also has to have patience, I knew in 2007 if the FO did what they said they were going to do, we were in for a few years of retooling, but I still don't want/like losing anytime and won't give in that the Bucs cannot win as early as next year with a few changes in the off season.
I don't think you can be a winner if you think you are always going to lose. One of the big problems with the young Bucco's is they don't automatically think they are going to win. Take the Yankees, they waltz into Philly the home crowd is all pumped against them, the Philly players are pumped, means nothing to them, they still win.
The young Bucco's could not do that, when they mature a little bit more, they will understand they will win because they are better than the other team, the environment is not going to matter. I believe they had a little bit of that at home and they showed it by how well they played before crowds of 20thou or more.
As far as telling people " I told you so", that will never happen. Most of the world is visual and if they can't see it they don't believe it. I understand that. So it goes, on this blog site.
Sorry, have to add one more. If it doesn't cause anyone to at least scratch their heads and say, wait a second, am I being played, consider the following:
NuHo's demonstrating the letters from the FO are eerily similar
they traded Bay and then said their prime need was looking for a right handed power hitting outfielder
they traded Grabow, Burnett and Freddy and said their prime needs were a left-handed reliever and a 2nd baseman
Let the conspiracy accusations begin . . .
If the Pirates were REALLY serious about building a pipeline, they'd get 25 players on the ML roster making the league minimum and put all the rest of that money into their minor league system.
Because I can sure as heck tell you if this current roster is paid $55M, they will still not make the playoffs in 2010 and almost certainly not in 2011 either.
By putting, say, 45M of that into scouting, facilities and draft signings, the Pirates WOULD be building that pipeline.
But of course, that makes too much sense, here will come the comment "you can't give up on the ML roster!"
Um, isn't that what happened LAST SEASON with all the trades? That was a Triple AAA ballclub, plain and simple.
Biz
NH's trade record does not look strong because of the type of players that he traded for, he traded established (although not great in most cases) major league players for prospects. We know that prospects take time and are a bit of a gamble.
Take Freddie for Alderson, that trade has produced nothing yet, but there were not many baseball people that would not make that trade in a heartbeat.
Take McClouth for Morton, Gorkies and Locke. Morton could be a #2 on a staff that did not have one. Locke is only 21 and pitching well. Don't forget he throws what the Pirates tell him to throw, not what he can throw, when they turn him lose we will see what we have.
Even the Bay trade could turn out to be a very good trade.
If Andy LaRoach turns out to be a quality ballplayer for many years here, Morris develops (only 21) and Moss, well he is going to develop somewhere else I am afraid.
Almost all of the trades NH made either need time or are producing right now.
Las Vegas Pirate Fan wrote-
Whether pro-FO, anti, or in the middle, that type of behavior would be utterly pathetic, in my humble opinion.
There are so many definitions of pathetic........whether it be for :realists...apologists..naysayers..haters ...lovers...whiners...believers...pizza complainers...FO ...statisticians...statistician haters.
MY biggest gripe is "flip floppers and continual antagonists".We could make a days worth of things we hate about posts,but the above duo is mine.
Help when I can. As for Pirate Rule 5 eligible this season some changes to the 40 probably in order
Brad Lincoln, Gorkys Hernandez, Shleby Ford, Jim Negrych, Bryan Morris, along with the neatly named Henry Henry are rule 5 eligible.
Mark in Dallas- Not sure I agree at all with you. As Herm Edwards once stated. "You play to win the game." I would rather have a championship then a team that is close every year. Why be good if you can't win the whole thing. Who cares if you keep a prospect around that won't win you a championship anyway? You have a chance at a championship you take it. Why would you settle for anything less than the best?
Mizery: I ABSOLUTELY agree with what you just said.
GIve me one WS and 6-7 years of struggling vs. 10 years where we may have 3-4 playoff apperances, only to lose in the divisional round.
It's all about being champions.
Phild stating well--Burnett gone in 3rd but can the Phils hold the lead?
Actually, you can have both - a team that is competitive every year, makes the playoffs every few years, and wins it all once or twice a decade.
JAL--examples, please.
Arriba - Here are some mistaken ideas that it seems most of that group has. If you don't have any of these ideas, I apologize for lumping you in with the Farkus/Dill gang.
#1. The Pirates should have a league average payroll if they are serious about winning.
#2. Bob Nutting has controlled the Pirates for many years behind the scenes.
#3. The low payroll of the Pirates shows that Nutting is making a killing at the expense of Pirates fans.
#4. The Pirates could have simultaneously built the farm system and created a winning MLB team if they had kept all their good players like Jason Bay and opened their wallets and paid for some good free agents.
#5. The fact that none of the players returned from the Jason Bay trade are now as good as Jason Bay shows that the trade was a bust.
#6. With the exception of the Nady trade, Huntington has missed on every trade.
#7. When you trade veterans for prospects, by definition that is a "salary dump". The team must be too cheap to pay market value for players.
#8. The Pirates will never win anything until they realize they have to pay market value for their players.
#9. The Pirates lied to get PNC Park built by saying the park would enable them to put a competitive team on the field.
#10. If payroll doesn't equal value, we wouldn't need a salary cap.
#11. The Pirates owe it to fans to raise payroll past their comfort level temporarily to draw in more fans - those extra fans will then pay for the higher payroll.
Well, over that past 22 years the twins have won two WS, been imn the playoffs 5 other years
The Angels over the past 10 years have 5 playoff appearances, 1 WS win, and wwre under 500 twice by 8 and 12 games .
Everyone know the Braves--since 1991 14 playoff. 1 WS win, under .500 twice=--once by 4 games once by 18
I don't see us remotely in the same boat as the Angels and Braves. The Braves only recently went to the model the Pirates are in, and they didn't get their previous record by going the Pirates' route. The FO is definitely not using the Braves' model from 1991 onward. The Angels,when they have been competitive, have been in the upper half, at least, on payroll. And the Twins, who are the closest to the Bucs out of those you mention in terms of market don't fit your criteria: If they won 2 WS in 22 years and were in the playoffs 5 other ones, it doesn't satisfy your criteria of "makes the playoffs every few years, and wins it all once or twice a decade. " And, 22 years, by my math, goes back to 1987. I hope the FO isn't looking at what happened back then, prior to revenue sharing, the Yankees paying huge sums to win, etc. to determine what will work now. But that's just me and my "mistaken ideas."
I did mean the Pirates were in the same boat, only that it can be done with right moves.
Of course, there's really no guarantee a team will actually win the World Series when they have the talent to. There's a lot of luck involved in baseball. That's why it's hard as heck to play over a .670 winning percentage even if you are an incredibly dominant team.
Even this year, when the Yankees have such a deep and dominant team, there's no guarantee they'll win it.
I guess the situation I'm talking about is exactly what the Brewers faced last year.
They got CC Sabathia for the stretch run because they didn't have a dominant pitcher like that on staff.
Of course, if you can somehow get that player for prospects like Moskos and Steve Pearce who are probably not future high value players, then you do it.
But that's not what I'm talking about. The Brewers gave up 2 outfielders - one of which could conceivably replace Fielder if he leaves in free agency.
So, it's really not a secure World Series win that you'd be getting. It's the higher percentage of possibility. Maybe that goes from 25% to 45% like it probably meant for the Brewers last year.
Of course, everybody has a different idea, which doesn't make it wrong to go for broke like the Brewers did last year. For me, I would rather have a reasonable chance to go to the playoffs and take my chances on that.
When you think about it, that's what the Pirates of the 60s and 70s did.
And the Braves were 86-76 this season and competitive deep into the season.
PoH -
>>I regret, now, not being good enough this year to honestly ask Santa to give me Rivera for the Pirates bullpen. Maybe one of you who has been totally well behaved could ask.<<
Here's my idea. I wasn't that good this year, either. But Santa has a reputation for being a little soft. So, you ask for Rivera and I'll ask for Utley. If Santa's good to even just one of us...
That should have been I did not mean
and if you want briefer Twins--they haven't made the series but they have been in the playoffs 5 of the past 8 years.
time for me to head off for the night. Good night to all and to all a good night
Love what the Phils are doing tonight. Looks like aggame on Wednesday. Good night.
getting back to actual baseball talk. Phil "almost a bucco" Coke just made an appearance for the yanks and gives up the big fly to Utley to tie Mr. October for most HR in the WS. Wait this isn't a baseball discussion board, this is a bob nutting discussion board. srsly talk about other stuff for a change. its making this board unreadable.
I don't think you are mistaken on this point. It certainly would be very, very difficult to put together a run like JAL is describing for a team like the Pirates. It would be unprecedented.
That said, if the economic situation were completely equal in MLB (which it is not) the odds are a team would only be in the playoffs once every 4 years and win a world series once every 30 years.
Since the economic situation is NOT equal (notice I am not saying payroll doesn't put teams like the Pirates at a disadvantage), that means getting to the point where the Twins or A's or Cardinals have been is pretty darn good.
I think as a GM for any one of those teams, you say the same thing. "We want to create a system where we have a chance to win every year". Now, you've got to compete against 29 other teams doing the same thing. If you don't actually succeed in being in the hunt every year, but you've had runs like those other teams, is that disappointing? I don't think so.
Watching Phil Coke get beat around like a pinball machine, I said to my wife, "you know the Pirates almost picked him up in a atrade last year."
My wife:
"Figures, he pitches like a Pirate"
And you guys thought I was negative.
JAL--What I'm saying about the Braves is that they haven't been doing it the way they are doing it now long enough for them to be looked at as a model the Pirates should follow. The stats you mentioned were not achieved using the model they are now using for financial reasons. They did what they did with Turner money. If the Pirates aren't in the same boat the information about how other teams with totally different situations are doing it is, IMO, pretty much irrelevant to the discussion in which the issue came up. You can add that to one of my mistaken ideas, perhaps, you know, that other teams being able to be competitive in completely different circumstances is not proof that the FO has taken the right approach with their miserly approach, or realistic approach, to finances, depending on your point of view.
Mark--so since what they are saying they are doing is impossible, why is it so wrong to question it, which seems to be the view of the majority on the blog?
goduke - Looks like they're going to need all those HRs. Let's hope the Phils can hold on and build on it tomorrow.
The one weakness of the Yankees is that they only have 3 good starting pitchers and a limited number of reliable relief pitchers. With all of the starters going on 3 days rest, it's going to tax them.
I'm hoping that's the Achilles heel.
Crossing my fingers...
IT CAN be done, but you must be smart and rich. To my knowledge, no low payroll team has ever done it. They take their shot, then lose for a few years. Me, I have had 17 years of losing. I'd take years of frustration from a good team(see the 92 Pirates) with maybe a WS every five years and a WS win a decade over this. Being crappy serves no purpose.
I have no evidence that the Pirates have the means or the will to spend, nor have I seen evidence that they are smart enough to pull this off. They HAVE shown a willingness to gamble, but I do find the McClatchy letter very.... deja vu like.
On another note, I am happy Veal can pitch over the plate, but am waiting for someone to hit whose name isn't Pedro.
Finally, looking at the 40 man, and the upcoming Rule V, the Pirates hav a lot of decisions to make. Some very familiar names will be left off I suspect
chances Utley is MVP even if the Phillies lose?
Nice to see the Phillies send it back to NYC! Just to make it relevant to the PBC, this admin could have had the winner of tonight's game and the winner of 2 WS games this year and 4 in the post season (Lee) for JBay. I know, we don't count stuff like that, it is factual and makes them look bad.
Arriba, I didn't say what they say they are doing (or trying to do) is impossible. It's extremely difficult and nobody has ever accomplished having a mid level payroll team which is a World Series caliber team every year.
On the other hand, not even the Yankees can put together a WS caliber team every year, and they have over 4 times the money and top notch talent evaluators.
So coming at it from that perspective, let's just realize that when Huntington talks about his goals, those are the aspirations of the plan, but not realistic goals in the sense that NutHo likes to pretend they should be.
I also have never said it's not OK to question whether Huntington is a good talent evaluator or the plan in general.
However, there are some real fallacies - like those I posted above - that go against logic and are indeed mistaken.
My personal feeling on the Huntington plan for a small market team is as Churchill said about democracy.
"Democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others."
Meaning, yes, it's hard to make it work, but if you don't try that one, then you are pretty much doomed to fail.
Arriba - check out this interesting exchange on the Bay for Lee non-trade.
Search for: Should have traded him even sooner
www.bucsdugout.com/.../jason-bay-headed-to-free-agency
Mark-- I thought we could not be "mid-level." But, sounds to me like you think they are doomed to fail, but they are taking the best/only approach out of a bad list of alternatives. It does not seem to me to be a legitimate justification for attacking others who disagree or blindly following and accepting every move they make. It is, however, very consistent with the most used justification for supporting the trading of established players--we didn't win when we had them so we are not losing anything by trading them, which I find mindnumbingly simplistic.
Mark--i didn't come up with anything using the the search you suggested about the Lee non-trade. No offense to Bucs Dugout, but I don't see anything more legitimate there than is posted here, although I sometimes enjoy the postings, kinda like here. ;-)