Transaction wire: Trading Lynchburg for Sarasota; claimed Seattle minor-league lefty

to the afternoon we go

so what wonderful topics will arise this afternoon?

afternoon links

Taking Different Paths After Building the Core

www.nytimes.com/.../29rosters.html

Historic Night for Cliff Lee (fist since a Pirate pitcher)

bats.blogs.nytimes.com/.../historic-night-for-cliff-lee

And yesterday there was w request for ticket scandal so here we go

www.youtube.com/watch

Figured I'd carry this over from the AM thread:

Arriba,

Pretty good post.

Personally, I think that there is a happy medium that is where the PBC will/can thrive.

They obviously can't survive financially anywhere at or near the $100M level and certainly can't go above it. They also cannot get by with a payroll at or near $30M without a lot of public backlash and almost certain backroom scolding from the other owners.

There is a sweet spot somewhere near the $60-75M territory that they can appease both groups and if they are spending wisely, they can also compete.

The real question is whether or not they are willing to raise the payroll to those levels and whether or not they are able to evaluate talent well enough to spend it on the right players.

The ants marched while I was typing on the other thread. I will spare you all a repost it all here. But if anyone is interested in my take on: "spend and they will come" and whether Pittsburgh can support a team, go check the end of the morning thread.

My two cents are if this club ever gets to be competetive and in a pennant race, PNC will be a hard place to get into, people will go crazy.

As I've said, I get teased quite a bit at work for wearing a Pirates hat, or jacket to work, the figurines in my office, all of that, but I'm also surprised about the knowledge of the club many have, they are "closet" fans, no disrespect to anyone intended.  We ever start winning, they will come out of the woodwork,

Why intentionally commit yourself to the pain and anguish of being a dyed in the wool Bucco fan?  We in here do that because we can't help ourselves, like lights attracting moths...

@Zisk

There is a sweet spot somewhere near the $60-75M territory that they can appease both groups and if they are spending wisely, they can also compete.

The real question is whether or not they are willing to raise the payroll

---------

Well said.  This is where I think I am misunderstood on here at times.... partially do to my "ranting".  I do not expect Nutting to have a payroll of 100 million.  I just think he needs to be accountable and have a payroll in the ball park you mention above.  This COULD IF MANAGED WELL bring a winning club to the Burg and possibly bring x-fans such as myself back, therefore reeping more money for Scrooge Nutting...... what they don't understand is the product needs to be good before attendace will rise, not increase attendance THEN they might decide to spend.

I applaud your post ZISK

Hey, gang,

  RE: "...spend it...and they will come..." - I hope FC wasn't referring to Morris, Bass, Hinske, Jason Kendall (very good guy - very bad business decision) - you all get my drift.  I would say,  "Spend it..." wisely - on properly evaluated talent that can deliver a good return on the investment - "...and they will come..."  (I'll be right there with them, too!)  

As for Philadelphia alumni, I think Michael Chicklis, from "The Shield" went to school in Philly:  'Nova?

The You tube link I posted is not a song--it is irate Yankee fans--worth a look.

Thanks for the youtube link, JAL, will check it when I get home, work blocks that site,

I don't know if 60-75 million is enough to be a consistently competetive club.  Look at our current club, project McCutch, Alvarez and anyone else to say their 5th year, pretend maybe we would keep Duke or Maholm around, throw in a couple fo FAs to replace other pitchers that we let go, pay for a good closer, it would be tough.  And with 60-75 million, and I know there are other expenses, what we get 45 million in revenue sharing?  Plus TV/Radio/advertising/cut of concerts at PNC/cut of $6 for a large coke??  I would think/hope they could get close to a 100 million payroll  But Expect and Hope, I guess

Spike

"Spend it..." wisely - on properly evaluated talent that can deliver a good return on the investment - "...and they will come..."  (I'll be right there with them, too!)  

__________________________

I would say spend it wisely and they will still be in business.

They will come?

They will come more than they are now, that is for sure, how much history tells us, not as much as the St. Louis's, Yanks, Dodgers and more teams like those.

Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday nights in April and September will always have a seat available for you.

The Pirates were only 4-5 games out of first place last year before any trades and they were last in the majors in attendance at that time.

IMO the fans of the Pirates are going to have to see players with star power before they show up in-mass, right now they don't have any like that.

I think that special players fill up stadiums, Manny would put people in the stands in Pittsburgh, Bonds would have done it last year. CC would do here to.

What special player have we had in the last 15 years have we had and I don't mean guys like Bay or Giles?

Bizrow -

My expectations are in the 80 million range, but I was thinking baby steps.  I was afraid Bob Nutting and co.(who we all know monitors and posts on this site) would choke on one of his feces dogs if he saw the number $100 million associated with his name.

leadoff - star power

I humbly disagree, this town is so thirsty for a winner, we don't need a superstar.  Actually a hard working bunch of grinders that know how to win might make folks even crazier.

IMO if we are ever in a legitimate pennant race come Sept, even weeknights will be close to 30K at the park

BFD - I'm just hoping for the best ; }

Hey, Leadoff,

  I hear what you're saying, and you might be right.  Definitely so about April and September....  But wouldn't we all love the chance to find out?

  Heck - $80 million would go  quite a ways toward that prospect.  You're right, too, about the last 15 years.  We haven't had many players with "star power".  But I think that is an elusive quality.  It might be composed of equal parts talent and the stage on which it is displayed (e.g.,  New York, LA, blah, blah, blah! - I'm just rambling here...).

  Point well-taken, though, partner!

G-MANS PAST REVEALED

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Check out the first paragraph.  The question is, which one is THE G-MAN ?

BFD and all

I see the hot button topic of the day is whether or not the area will support a "winner".  I feel that the area will support the Pirates, but not baseball in general, you guys mention $4 hotdogs and $7 beer, to go along with $80 tickets(current CUBS price) just for bleacher seats, that to me is truly what is ruining baseball and its 81 home season. NF,L only 8 games, much more intensity to get tixs. NHL has only 41 dates at home at little less intense but still 81 games you get to pick and choose from on a limited income? Even if you only spend $14 for the seat you still have to either park or take the bus. The economics of the nation, let alone the region are not conducive to spending large amounts of discretionary income on 1/81 of a season. You simply cannot afford to go to multiple games each year. It will only get worse when the team improves, due to rising tix prices.  Baseball needs to find a way to regather the truly casual fan who wants to take his family to the ballpark. Just by putting a winning product on the field is not going to bring them back in large numbers. They were the lifeblood of MLB, they left for other venues when going to the park became prohibitive, and less personal. How many times did we as kids go just to see our favorite player (WILLIE). Now players are not long in one place to make it feel like we know them, and the games are too long, and factor in the cold winds of mid-spring, it is no wonder the crowds are so  small. It will not make a whit of difference next year when the Dodgers open up at PNC the crowds will still be in the 10,000 range.

Baseball owners and the union are going to have to take a long hard look at the economics and decide whether they want 30 teams and smaller salaries or contract down to 10 teams who can support the ever escalating salaries. I hope it does not come down to the latter as eventually even the hated Yankees will not be able to afford the cost. Less teams will mean less TV revenue if any at all and less interest of the nation.  If the powers that be are not careful MLB will become just another elitist sport like lacrosse or jai-ali (sp?)

Bisrow

I don't think you need a superstar but I do think you need a few above average players and pitchers to be a playoff team.

BFD -- Stop drinking the kool aid.  

Whether it's $65 or $80 million it's still a huge financial disadvantage and they have to do the same thing they are doing right now only with a little more room for mistakes  (at least for awhile until the top tier teams hit $300 mil or half a billion or whatever).  

The rich get richer, the poor get poorer and quality of management is only a tiny tiny part of the equation.

Until MLB puts its house in order, it's only going to get worse.  

If there's a management failure anywhere it's on the part of the majority -- the poorer two thirds or three quarters of the owners -- in letting the rich guys and the players ruin walk all over them.  

Cave -

Re The G-Men: LOL! I don't think I was ever that young. And I'm impressed with how they all have the same haircut. They all should be wearing Hap Caps.

Cave, here's a Hap Cap for that post.  __/_H_\

Freudian typo:  players ruin should be players union

Biz

I humbly disagree, this town is so thirsty for a winner, we don't need a superstar.  Actually a hard working bunch of grinders that know how to win might make folks even crazier.

___________________________

When I am talking about filling up the stadium, I am not talking about 30 thou, I am talking about consecutive sell outs that teams like Boston get and the Indians in the 90's got. I expect when they win they could and should draw a little over 2mil, that will equate to a payroll of around 60mil if that happens.

I believe the attendance is in direct correlation to the amount that is going to be spent.

One other item that is also in direct correlation to the money spent is the price of a ticket, if we get over 2mil, but still have the cheapest ticket in baseball, I might be stretching it with 60mil.

They have not done it in our history, big games, big teams (Yanks here last year) seem to be the draw for this area.

St.Louis, Chicago by themselves could not fill this place up, but the Yankees can. Somewhere in all of this lies what will really happen.

JAL - I agree, above average are needed for sure.

JHadar - but it has been done elsewhere, Oakland, Minny, TBay, not to say that the runaway spending by Yankees, Bosox, Cubbie, etc isn't starting to change that.

As we've said, the previous leadership of this club has been atrocious.  Am not commenting on the current FO at this time, just expecting and hoping.

If they were single-digits out of first in August and Sept, PNC would be rockin' every game.

Wow - that felt really good to think about. But unfortunately the reality of 2010 will be painful. Imagine last August and September replayed starting in April.

JHadar -

I agree with what you just said about the need for baseball to get their house in order.

What I find sad is I listened to Bud Selig on Letterman Wednesday night. Letterman brought up the matter of the Yankees and Phillies spending so much. Instead of admitting this is not good for many teams and fans, Bud started bragging about how many different clubs have made the playoffs in recent years. He conveniently overlooked how it has been a lifetime since teams like the Pirates or Royals or Orioles have been to the playoffs.

He also nearly pulled a muscle patting himself on the back for where the sport stands on steroids. Letterman asked him "what's going to happen to A-Rod" for his admission to shooting up and Bud blew right past that without answering the question.

With leadership like this, baseball is in trouble.

JH

Until MLB puts its house in order, it's only going to get worse.  

______________________

As long as stats are everything, I don't believe major league baseball sees the same problems we do.

I posted a question on this blog site a week or two ago asking whether the Yanks are good for baseball.

1. They are extending the payroll far beyond where anyone else can go.

2. They are extending the cost of going to baseball games far beyond where any other teams in baseball can go.

3. There TV revenue is far beyond where any other team in baseball can go.

Whether they win a world series or not, I am betting they will make the Phillies look like pikers at total income window at the end of the year.

I'm sure some star power would help, but if it's a starting pitcher how many starts will he get at home--12-14?  And if some of those are on a fireworks night or Skyblast that isn't much extra attendance due to star power.  Perez in his one super year put some people in the seats, I believe, though I don't have those stats.  There's a hole here, though, that has to be dug out of so 4-5 games out before July and a losing record is not going to turn it around and is not meaningful to the analysis IMO.  I think a winning record over a period of time, especially a winning record maintained the second half of the year and Cutch/Alvarez would put some people in the seats.

Biz << but it has been done elsewhere >>

The Twins are probably closest to being able to actually sustain a quality program against the big guys  -- but it still begs the question, does the fact that some folks are able to overcome an unfair set of rules somehow make it fair?  Think what the Twins would be if they didn't have to trade off 3/4 of their talent when they reach free agency.

I'm not saying that I have no hope that they can find a way to beat the financial odds -- I think they can, but you can see how popular their attempt to go outside the convention of "buying some stars" is.  

I'm surprised that a call for fairness is eliciting such a strong reaction.  MLB needs a salary cap and floor.

You might be right leadoff, but I remember big crowds at Three Rivers in the late 70's during weekdays against teams like the Expos, Mutts, and PDogs and things were electric.  That place, excuse me girls, was a dog bowl compared to what we have today. (my dogs weren't around when Three Rivers was here, but I'm sure they like their bowls much better)

JHadar - wow...kool-aid drinker?

I realize they would still be at a huge disadvantage, but that # allows Bob to make his money he so loves to count and puts a half descent product on the field which, if managed properly (HUGE IF) can make a playoff run from time to time.  That's all I ask for with the current MLB landscape.  Hope to be playing in October.... Hope that a game after July 4th means something......

Gulp...... just took another sip.....

Indiana -

COuldn't agree more about the crazy feces dog prices......Bring back buck night.... remember those.  $1 coke, $1 dog, $1 parking, $1 ticket......... ahhhh the good ol days.

I think bread was a nickel......what the?

JH

I'm surprised that a call for fairness is eliciting such a strong reaction.  MLB needs a salary cap and floor.

______________________

Most people would agree with you, but reality says it is not going to happen in our lifetimes.

Biz

You might be right leadoff, but I remember big crowds at Three Rivers in the late 70's during weekdays against teams like the Expos, Mutts, and PDogs and things were electric.  That place, excuse me girls, was a dog bowl compared to what we have today. (my dogs weren't around when Three Rivers was here, but I'm sure they like their bowls much better)

_________________________

Yes we had some crowds, I remember Tom Seaver pitching one day, I had to get a ticket under the lights in center field and felt lucky, but what you are talking about happening during the 70's is what I expect will happen when the Pirates do become competitive again.

I also agree with Arriba that when Cutch and Pedro are here and this team is winning that more people will be in the seats. Just not sell-outs every day.

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Arriba raises a good issue concerning attendance as it relates to the hole Pirates are in. Seventeen years is huge.

Being able to extend a good April-May into August-September might help increase attendance to some degree in the short run. But what will it take to sustain it - one improving/winning year, two years, three before folks believe a corner has been turned for good?

What are everyone's thoughts? How long would the team have to turn it around to convince those here who stay away from the park to come back and buy tickets?

So the Bucs are going to change their High A ball team from Lynchburg to Bradenton.

Has anyone posted yet that Lynchburg now joins Perry Hill and Tyler Yates as wanting to get away from this team and FO ?       I'm sorry, I couldn't resist :-)

"I also take into account what a birdie told me about the FO's views privately that they don't think that this area will support a team, winning or otherwise, to the degree necessary to spend, for example, the average major league payroll"

Well here's a novel concept......if Bob Nutting and his lackies doubt their ability to compete financially in this market.......THEN PUT THE FRICKIN CLUB UP FOR SALE AND GET OUT!

Stop holding this town hostage.

Take the windfall return on his orginal investment, go back to Wheeling and let possessing both competence and motivation to give it a whirl.

Jesus criminey.

BFD -- Yeah, Kool-aid -- until the Bucs get an owner who can take sustained losses their payroll at best ($80 mil?) will be 1/3 of the max and shrinking as the big revenue clubs continue to rake it in.  

At that rate maybe they can be competitive now and again by buying stars but unless they develop a solid minor league program, much better scouting and talent evaluation, outdraft the competition, and build up their instruction they're only going to be marginally better than they are right now.  That's what the Twins are doing and they needed a complete collapse by Detroit to qualify as first round Yankee fodder.  

No doubt we'd be better at $80 mil but what you're advocating is not a long-term solution.

Have another sip.

JH

I'm not disagreeing in any way with your thoughs on the system being unfair, I'm just saying that much of this is self-inflicted due to poor decisions, poor drafts, poor management, deep pockets and alligator arms.

We can look at teams in other systems where their management has pretty much destructed themselves even with the cap, the Raiders, Clippers, Bills, Lions, (how can I forget the Browns???) and yes our 17 streak is worse than all others, but at least we have (ok 30 years ago) sipped from the Holy Grail.

JH - we're in agreement, I believe

My-Key-Tee,

While others may want to increase my meds for saying this, I'm going to do it anyway....the team that you watched last Aug. and Sept was nowhere near as bad as the record showed.

A lot of the games that were lost we done so by a bullpen that was depleted with injuries and using AAA fill-ins. Obviously there were games where they didn't have a chance, but that wasn't anywhere near as frequent as the first situation.

Even during that horrid 1-12 stretch to begin August, they had the lead after 6 innings in 6 of the 12 loses and were only down 1 run in another 3.

With a healthy bullpen and some more depth, this team shouldn't blow all of the late leads that they did this past summer.

i am very disapointed to hear the pittsburgh prospects are buying another team. is this one going to be a loser too. why don't they spend time and money putting a team on the field that is a little competative. we have a state of the art ball field,why would you not try to give your fan base something worth watching. they start a new 5 year plan every year. i want them to stay in pgh but think of the fans. look at the pens and steelers, they do a good job,when are the pirate ownership going to step up to the plate?

renewal forms for season tickets came in the mail. Pedro Alvarez and Jeff Clement among the prospects to be at the STH nights at the batting cages at PNC Park on Nov 9 and 11th. cant wait

This Lynchburg stuff is just more busy work for Neal as has been his practice for his previous two off seasons.

He's temporarily running what is argueably the worst franchise in MLB and he is fiddling around with the Class A clubs instead of addressing needs on a major league club that played .300 baseball during the second half of the season.

These losers are so bad.

A good move to purchase the team out of Florida.It puts the Florida facilities to better use.I wonder if this was planned when they fixed and modernized the spring training facilities.

G-Man

I think it would take really till we're in a real, live, honest to goodness pennant race, and not just because everyone else in the division is finishing near 500 like in 97.  A good start wouldn't convince many (not counting the nuts in here), but being a solid club over the summer, having some series like the one we had with the PDogs this past year, actually making a trade to IMPROVE come trade deadline, then keeping it going to August and then September, yes, as they say I am smoking dope here, but I don't think it will take long for the folks to get on the bus.

@ Zisk

I think you need to cut back on the meds.

It's not a simple as fortifying the bullpen. Although that would certainly help. They need major league sticks. Watch the WS and remember what baseball is supposed to be like.

@ Zisk

I think it depends a lot on how the season plays out. If the Pirates just hang around the fringe of contending, they will not draw a whole lot more that first year. If they are closely in contention all season and play some exciting ball, they will draw bigger crowds.

If they just get to a winning record but not really contending one year, the next year will depend in part on what they do during the off season. If they make a good effort to load up on talent and are expected to be competitive (and actually are), then they will start to draw better at that point.

They probably have to be viewed as competitive going into the season before they really start to draw well.

Longer term, it will take years before they could draw consistently good crowds like St. Louis, even if at a lower level.

JAL  - - I think you are absolutely correct when you

          suggest that the Bucs need to invest/acquire a few

          established players (not ones at the end of their

          career), but ones who have already proved they can

          play and still can play. This would give some balance

          to the players we now have.

But of even greater importance is what JAL says indirectly, if I interpret you correctly. While  increasing the outlay of money will help, that is only part of the equation. Of even greater importance is an improvement of those who do the player evaluations so that when there is a willingness to spend more money, the quality of players selected has improved as well. In otherwords, looking at players who have been overlooked in the draft but who have become solid major league players for other teams, the Pirates need to be more efficient in player selection period. There is nothing sadder than seeing solid major league players for other teams and knowing they could be playing for the Pirates if they had not been glossed over during the selection process. Granted, teams will make mistakes during the drafting of players, but it appears Pittsburgh has allowed too many players escape. Spending money is one thing, but knowing what you are spending it on is even more vital.

Watch the WS and remember what baseball is supposed to be like.

===========================

Singles with 2 solo homers mixed in?  Great sticks.

And what was the deciding factor last night?  Starting pitching (Cliff Lee poopied all over the Yankees & C.C. pitched extremely well except for 2 mistakes to Utley) and Bullpen (if the Yanks relievers keep that a 2 run game, I think it finishes up differently in the 9th).

Pitching people.  Pitching.  Look at SF.  Their lineup can't score a run to save a life, let alone one of their own, yet they were in the playoff race until the end.

Shore up the pitching (which includes going out and signing a FA starter and a lefty or 2 for the bullpen) first.  That's most important.

To be good, you need good pitching and timely hitting (ala with RISP).

Good pitching beats good hitting anyday.

I think the A club purchase is as simple as wanting to increase revenues within the organization by putting the 'A' club into the Pirate owned ballpark in Bradenton.

This will also cut down on travel expenses as more prospects are based in Bradenton, and less places for Kyle / Neal  (or our player development personell) to travel to.

Now all club affiliates will either be in Bradenton, or within a 3 1/2 hour drive of Pittsburgh.

I'd do it if I were them.

WDIGTSR,

I couldn't have said it better myself. That was the direction that I was going in my mind. The team played well enough to win most games with a few shutouts and a couple of drubbings mixed in.

In most of those games, the breakdown happened b/c of someone that came out of the pen.

Will they challenge for a playoff spot if they sure up the pen? Not with the group as it stands now. But they could make a serious run at ending the streak if the starters don't regress and they pen performs like a major league pen should.

Arriba said...

Because my view as a fan is that the come and we will spend had been tried and it failed.  What was the highest payroll since PNC Park opened?  $57 million, or less?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 2001, The Pirates had a $57M payroll, but you have to put that in perspective of the other payrolls in that year and the amount of money being made then.  

Payrolls in 2001:

Astros (1st in NLC) = $60M, Cardinals (2nd in NLC) = $78M, Cubs (3rd in NLC) = $64.7M, Brewers (4th in NLC) = $43M, Yankees = $112, Twins = $24M,   Phillies = $41M

So, you can see that in 2009 terms, the 2001 Pirates had a payroll which would be equal to about $85M-$90M today, which is league average. You can see that they thought they were spending enough money to compete that year. So, when the FO says now that the Pirates tried that in the past and it failed, that's what they are talking about.

==========================

NutHo said...

Mr. Coonelly cleverly forgets that the PBC exceeded 2.0M in attendance in the early 90's when they fielded a competitive club and drew 2.4M in 2001 at PNC Park and that the clubs poor leadership was the main reason attendance declined sharply in the new ballpark.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't see where he's forgetting that or denying that at all. In fact, his message is that if you spend money in the wrong way, the team is not going to win, the people won't support the team, and that will put the club in financial danger.

===========================================

BFD said...

what they don't understand is the product needs to be good before attendace will rise, not increase attendance THEN they might decide to spend.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

They really do understand that they have to put a good team on the field before attendance will rise.

The difference in understanding between you and the FO is that the FO does not see raising payroll as the determining factor of putting a good team on the field INITIALLY.

That "initially" is very important. Because what causes a team to be good is the value of its players, not the amount it spends on them.

The Mets had one of the most expensive teams this year, but the actual combined value of its players (measured in WAR and $) was the lowest in MLB this year.

The Rays had a similarly expensive team to the Pirates, but the combined value of its players was 2nd only to the Yankees. People talk about their window closing, but according to the numbers the Rays either were very unlucky or greatly under-achieved this year (depending on how you look at it).

These are two extreme examples, of course, but what is the common thread? The Mets had a team almost completely built on free agents, and the Rays had a team built mostly of home-grown young talent.

The Rays' payroll this year was $20M higher than last year, which was $20M higher than the year before that. When you have a good young team, salaries go up significantly through arbitration and if you start buying out free agency years.

That is why in the case of the Pirates, it is imperative that when the Pirates can put together a good team, the payroll is lower than they can actually pay, because it is going to go up substantially just by keeping the same players.

Teams usually spend about $3M-$4M per WAR in free agency.

Using that calculation, both Andrew McCutchen and Garrett Jones were worth over $10M this year, even though they didn't play the whole year.

Just using logic, if you had an average payroll of $85M and you got average results, wouldn't you expect your team to finish about average, or .500?

Now, just using the understanding from before - that when PNC Park opened in 2001, the Pirates had an equivalent payroll to about $85M. It's clear to me that the FO believed they were going to have attendance of 30K/game to support that.

If that team were perpetually around .500, do you think the crowds would pack PNC Park for years, or do you think the attendance would eventually decline so they could not support an $85M payroll?

Regardless of which would actually happen, the chance of that happening is too great to bank on it NOT happening.

The only solution for the Pirates is they must get significantly higher value from their players than they pay them (on average) if they are going to compete for divisions and championships. Otherwise, the economics of the thing just doesn't work out.

The way you get that is by finding young players that are worth a lot and are paid less. When the Pirates can win by doing that, then they can have a decent chance of keeping the core players together for a long time.

If the Pirates can't win by having a below average payroll, then they will never be able to keep a team together for more than a year or two before it becomes too expensive for them to pay.

With JHadar & others talking about a cap/floor salary system, we must remember that the key to that change is AGREEMENT between players and management.  The players have DECADES of experience to show them that management can't be trusted. (Can anyone remember an example of something Bud & he boys have done that's benefited the GAME & the players who make it, rather than the suits in the owners box?)

In theory, a cap/floor system would benefit more players, but only if honestly applied.  When no one else but Bud & the boys "see the books" why should any player believe it will be to his benefit? Perhaps, if there were a real commissioner looking out for the GAME (not just the owners pocket books) it might be different, but I don't see it happening in my lifetime.

"I also take into account what a birdie told me about the FO's views privately that they don't think that this area will support a team, winning or otherwise, to the degree necessary to spend, for example, the average major league payroll"

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Under the current MLB system, I agree with this statement if you mean having a league average payroll every year.

The attendance at PNC Park would need to be around 30-35K/game to support a league average payroll.

Since it's probable that fans would only come out with those kinds of numbers in the very good years, I would guess the Pirates' payroll could top out at around $90M if the FO saved enough money in some very low payroll years.

It is really unrealistic to expect when you are in the bottom 5 in media market revenue that you could sustain a league average payroll unless your attendance figures are above average.

I don't care how much NutHo screams and whines. Facts are facts. Logic is logic.

Like Leyland said, we can't tell these guys to play for the Pirates because this is where the Allegheny and Monongahela form the Ohio. It takes money, and that money must come from somewhere.

And I can promise you that it NEVER comes out of ANY owner's pocket.

This eally is not all that hard.  To the folks who think they are getting ripped off by Mr. Nuting no matter what they say, they will never return to the ball park.

To the thousands of people who do go to games who see thousands wearing Pirate gear know that more wins will bring those wearing gear into the ball park more often.

To those thousands of people who go to games not wearing Pirate gear all it will take is more wins to bring them in more often.

The average fan cares nothing about payroll.  Those who use payroll as part of their excuse to stay away will continue to stay away.

Tha fan base that liikes to sit behind home plate if they could will come more often for one of two reasons:  to see the pitch cross the plate by some pitcher who puts it across the plate in an exciting manner or a number of players who add the excitement of hitting and running like the clutch does when it crosses the plate.

The team this past year even during the worst of time played as a group like it was the best of times.  If you do not respect that from a rookie you do not respect.  

There are too many variables for those who complain about MR. Nutting or Mr. Neal Hunti... or Mr. Frank Coo...  or the lemonade guy or being shut off from the beer guy or pick your

crybaby to ever run out of reason to complain, plain and simple.

Those who stay away will stay away.  Those who go will go more often for one of two reasons:  more wins or many more wins.

Everything else is an excuse for ones hanky.

JJ

Everything else is an excuse for ones hanky.

__________________________

IMO, Winning will bring more excuses for how we won and if we are ever going to win again, the list goes on.

The Steelers won on Sunday and the only talk I heard is how bad the defense is and how lucky they were. The Pitt quarterback has been booed ridiculously and he is one of the top quarterbacks in college football.

You reach a point where complaining is a way of life with sports teams fans.

Some people complain much more than other people, some people are articulate and study the game, some just can't get past what they don't like. We are all different.

@JJ <Those who go will go more often for one of two reasons:  more wins or many more wins.>  That's pretty much what most have been saying.  The payroll is just a means to the end of winning.

leadoff--I disagree with your post for the most part, but I hope we get to test out your theory since that would mean more wins.

I don't think complaining and attendance have a direct correlation.  Some people, like Steelers fans, complain alot, but that stadium is full every home game.  And I don't know who you were talking to about the Steelers, because the defense won the game and held the previously unbeaten Farve & Co. to 17 points.  But some people will complain about anything, like the guy who sat near me at the first game this year against the Titans and was all over Ben before the end of the first quarter.

Good discussion today.  Next time I start a "let's fix baseball thread, I'll try to get my thoughts on the commissioner and player's union -- as well as the designated hitter rule -- into it.  

But I've got to call it a day for now... not sure when I'll be back, a close friend died and the memorial is Saturday morning and a 120 mile drive.  Some things to get done before we leave, too.  Funny how death makes you think about what life's really about.  

In the meantime though, remember I'm pullin' for ya'.  We're all in this together.  

Carry on. Have fun.

Arriba

I don't think complaining and attendance have a direct correlation.

____________________________

I don't think so either.

The only time I can think of that fans did not come out to see a winner is the Braves. Many times in the NLDS they had empty seats. Folks around here already have many reasons not to care, or come out to PNC. They're looking for a good reason to come out. And if they find that reason, they don't want to be price gouged.  If and when the Pirates win, it will be in demand, but you can't ask Pittsburgh to pay New York prices for a winner.  

I wonder what this place will be like if Adam LaRoche has a 35 HR...110 RBI...290 BA year?I doubt anyone jumps off the Clemente bridge but.....you never know.

Maz

Nothing if Jones plays first and puts up similar numbers.

JAL- True,but we also know how much better Adam is with the glove.In Adam's case it  is not that much of a stretch,but it will be interesting to see how the pitchers adjust to Jones.

Maz

Yes, Adam much better with the glove.

MAZ and JAL,  I think the fact Bad To The Bones was walked

too many times to face Ryan there is some thought that he is not showing much of a hole in his swing.

If he has they would be going after it.  They are just biding their time until they see a drop off from him.  I think there is more of a chance his adreneline slows.

I wouldn't put it past Big Stonehenge to dis the Pirates by having a monster year next year.

The guy didn't like being here and he just couldn't fake it enough to focus with his ADD. The guy didn't even have the courtesy to play well a few weeks before the trade deadline, but the second he's traded, he the second coming of Lou Gehrig.

Will either Argenis Diaz learn how to hit or Hunter Stickland become the next Mike Gonzalez? We'll see...

Although Adam's name got thrown around a little to make a point in the Perry Hill saga or to increase the number if the argument was the trades were a dump, I don't recall any poster (not to say I didn't miss someone) complaining  about trading AdLa.  For me, I hope he hits 60 home runs and solves the first half/second half problem and goes to the Hall of Fame.  I still don't think they should have kept him and paid him what it would have taken to keep him.  It wasn't going to happen here IMHO.

maz--good avatar choice for Halloween

I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict that PoH will put aside her distaste for the two teams in the WS and watch any game that Cole Hamels starts.

you'll notice that the Header and, um, the once-empty space above your Comments has changed drastically.

sorry. you know how this Server hates me...

@AW...You missed someone.  :-)

And Mark In...I don't know where you got Adam didn't like it here.  Especially recently where he got to play with Andy, he did like playing here.  I think too much is being read into his outward appearance.

Chuck

The server hates all of us  :)

Chuck Finder-You know all this new info is to NuHo what a steak is to to hungry hyena.We are going to need a three layer sarcasm shield to protect the blog from a direct attack from Mr Hostage.Sorry,but I am afraid this place is not going to be a very happy place tomorrow.

 I could be wrong(we all know I have been before).I'm preparing for a nasty day though.

DMac--I didn't miss you (I assumed you would be watching all the games unless somebody went to Nebraska), but PoH kinda staked out a position so I wanted to call her on it.  ;-)

maz--I have one question--are the new affiliate's uni's going to have sleeves?

LOL...AW...I was referring to the Adam remark.  I'm not watching the game, actually.

Arriba Wilver -I just had a premonition.I'm just sayin....srsly

Finally, somebody has articulated a bright spot for 17 straight sub-.500 seasons- "celebrated draft picks" on the Lynchburg roster.  Our loss was Lynchburg's gain.  I guess that gravy train will dry up now that the Reds are taking over their team.

Interesting the Yankees playing small ball with a power team when they think it is necessary, JR won't play small ball and doesn't have a power team, I know the Pirates are not fast, but neither are the Yankees.

"Big Stonehenge" and "Little Stonehenge."  Kind of like "Big Poison" and "Little Poison," only not as many base hits.  

A-roid is KKK yet again. better up the supplements mr early october...

I firmly believe in my heart if the bucs would near .500 ball in 2010 they add 200k at the gates. if they get to .550 they get over 2 million. really. if they would hit the playoffs....we have the same potential draw area as stillers and I think people would come out of the woodwork. really. even without bells and whistles and bobbleheads.

AND a new power pitcher [good], former high draft pick [good], 4.48AAA ERA= fits right in! boy, glad we upped that space yates vacated!

So much for my sweep hypothesis!

Pedro was much better than I thought he would be ... and Burnett had command for a change.

Awesome minor league team trade! Begs the question - - - how bad are the Pirates financially????? This is just another money saving, profit focused move!

@DrewRit21 - "This is just another money saving, profit focused move!"

Yeah, I don't guess honest people ever ran their business to save money and make a profit before! LOL!

Dissapointed that the Yanks won tonight. At least it's a 5 game series, hopeful for seven.

The other day, someone asked what bright spots were on the 2010 horizon for the Pirates. Consider that when the Astros announced their new manager yesterday, they claimed they had the worst minor league system. A couple of years ago, the Pirates could have made that claim. So is it a bright spot that the Bucs are no longer the worst, is that something NH can take, or should take credit for? Is that a bright spot?

I see the Pirates picked up another POWERarm today. I was thinking about this after watching Cliff Lee stymie the Yanke with a 90-93 mph Fastball, then watching Pedro pitch effectively WITHOUT a fastball.

It is not how hard you throw it. Mixing speeds and locations, with decent control is what a pitcher needs. Sure "action/movement" on a fastball is nice, but a guy who throws a straight 98 mph fastball is gonna be shelled. It isn't like the movie "major League" where Vaughn throws 99mph heat down the center of the plate and strikes guys out.

Here's a brief Wikipedia article w/photo on the new guy, Thomas.

en.wikipedia.org/.../Justin_Thomas

Of course, HIGH upside w/nice DOWNward plane! :-)

DrewRit,

I guess you didn't read the actual write up about the swap. It was stated in there that most FSL teams lose money every year and that just breaking even is considered a good year.