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Post-Gazette beat writers Dejan Kovacevic and Chuck Finder blog about the Pittsburgh Baseball Club.

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Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?

By Dejan Kovacevic | 12:40 a.m. Tuesday

Points of order before the annual gushing of gratitude ...

I will be gone from the coverage -- from this plane of existence, really -- until a week before the Winter Meetings. It is a weird job, the one where you pretty much go around the clock for 10 months, then shut it down for the other two, but there it is. Chuck Finder will handle any news that materializes in the interim, and there will be blank blog postings here to sustain the discussion

Also, 2010 will be something of a strange year for me: My editors asked me recently to cover the Winter Olympics in Vancouver and, surprised as I was, I happily accepted after figuring out a way that we still could cover the Pirates. The Olympics take up most of February, so I will miss the first 2-3 weeks of spring training. Again, Chuck will be in Bradenton until I get there about the first week of March.

I very much enjoyed covering the 2004 Games in Athens and look forward doing the winter edition for the first time. There is no sporting event on our planet comparable to the Olympics in terms of scope, impact or drama, and I hope it makes for some compelling stories.

On to the gushing ...

To the sky above Downtown, for holding still for this image on July 18.

To Drs. Patrick DeMeo and Edward Snell, as well as strength coach Frank Velasquez, for their help this past spring with the back. It is 100 percent now, and their attention and advice had much to do with that.

To Chuck Tanner. Take care of yourself, and we will see you in the spring.

To Bob Nutting, Frank Coonelly and Neal Huntington, for putting trust in me for accurate and fair coverage even when they do not like what I write, which I have a feeling was a large percentage of the articles in the past year that was so miserable for the major league team.

To John Russell, for always -- and I mean no exceptions -- finding the time to explain every decision, often in great detail. Those decisions might not always have been popular, but you never read these two words next to his name: "No comment."

To Joe Kerrigan and Perry Hill, for bringing instant credibility -- and class -- to their positions.

To Rene Gayo, for showing me the new heart of baseball in the Dominican Republic.

To Kyle Stark, for answering every email in ... oh, 30 seconds or less.

To Paul Maholm, Zach Duke and Ross Ohlendorf, the team's only full-year starting pitchers, for moving a lot of games along at a nice pace. (And for being good pitchers and people, of course, but some of us really value the fast game.)

To Jeff Karstens, a funny dude, for being admittedly stupid enough to wear a Chargers jersey to Heinz Field the other night. That's two Ls in one day, if you're scoring at home.

To Charlie Morton. If the Pirates were a movie in which you could hear and see everything, you would pull for Morton harder than anyone. Tell him he pitched a fine game, and he'll tilt his head as if he's never heard such a thing, and say, "Thank you!"

To Jesse Chavez, your forgotten rookie. Smiled when the Pirates won. Down when they lost.

To Matt Capps, for speaking after all six blown saves.

To Joel Hanrahan, for enduring 111 total losses with his sense of humor intact.

To Andy LaRoche and Lastings Milledge, for beginning to prove many people - myself included - wrong. These things take time, and he is young. Milledge started changing my mind even before getting to Pittsburgh.

To Ryan Doumit, for from-the-heart honesty.

To Andrew McCutchen and Garrett Jones, for becoming National League rookie of the year candidates through a high level of talent and an even higher level of enthusiasm, on and off the field. How odd to have two spots that bright -- three, really, with Ohlendorf -- amid the historic losing stretch.

To the many other new trade acquisitions, who, despite the awful atmosphere they entered, never acted above it. (As a point of contrast, Eric Hinske twice in interviews referred to the Pirates as "they" before asking out.)

To this remarkable group of Bradenton Pirates playing this summer in the Gulf Coast League, maybe my best experience all year. (Well, that and getting an email from Rinku Singh yesterday in which he called me "sir" again.)

To Nate McLouth, Jack Wilson, Freddy Sanchez, John Grabow, Doug Mientkiewicz, Nyjer Morgan and Sean Burnett, for staying in touch even after they were gone. That always is welcome in this job. People just zip in and out of life and, without this extra contact, it's like they just stop existing.

To Jim Trdinich, Dan Hart and Brian Warecki, who have the toughest jobs in sports: Public relations for the Pirates.

To my editors, Jerry Micco and immediate supervisor, Donna Eyring, for full support on the baseball beat in a time when so many are cutting.

To the copy editors on the print side, plus Liz Gray, Willa Kindle, Matt Kennedy, Dan Gigler and now Seth Rorabaugh on the Web-publishing side. They got lots of emails with lots of corrections.

To Jen Langosch, Rob Biertempfel and John Perrotto. We compete to bring you news about the Pirates, but I am proud to call them friends.

To Chuck Finder, for helping to make this job as easy as it can be.

To you, above all. And, if you don't know why after tolerating the season you just saw, then you're not as crazy as I think you are. From the warm wishes you shared during the bad time in the spring, to the many of you who have approached in person, to long-time reader -- and blog contributor -- John Toperzer for the handwritten letter that you left with the security guard on the morning of the home finale. Just blew me away.

I will be checking email at dejangl@yahoo.com. Be good.

Linkage to the general coverage ...

> Main story: The final piece of the season's coverage addresses 10 ways the Pirates might create a successful 2010, all things being relative.

> Key dates: Baseball/Pirates calendar for the next few months.

> Opinion: Bob Smizik assails Huntington's approach for 2010.

> Chat: The transcript from yesterday.

> Poll result: The readers deem the Pirates 'hopeless.'

And from other realms ...

> Still 'the same old Pirates,' writes the Associated Press' Alan Robinson.

> Baseball America's Ben Badler applauds the Pirates for approaching Andy LaRoche about second base.

> Perrotto pushes the Pirates to keep Hill.

> Jason Bay prepares for the playoffs.

> The statistical site FanGraphs chooses McCutchen as National League rookie of the year.

PHOTO of young Dominican player: Dali Kovacevic

PHOTOS of the rainbow, of Milledge, of the Bradenton Pirates, and of Morgan and McCutchen in Minneapolis: Me  


Posted Oct 06 2009, 12:40 AM by Dejan Kovacevic

Comments

mazfromiowa wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 1:02 AM

Thanks DK for not making fun of Iowa...I took a few potshots for being from here,but you are a heckuva guy.I'm sure we'll hear from you from time to time.

                FIRSTIES!

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 1:04 AM

DK,

It's been a blast participating in the blog this season.  It's my connection to the Bucs despite being a couple thousand miles away.  Thanks for the forum.  Enjoy the off season.

The Deacon wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 1:05 AM

Dejan, I appreciate your work on reporting the Pirates and the blog.  The Post-Gazette on the Bucs is the best team coverage in the business.

jersey joe wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 1:35 AM

     ANNIVERSARY GATHERING

       October 24th, noon time

        Vincents of Greentree

             Special Guest

           Mr Frank Coonelly

         LImited seating available

         RESERVE YOUR SEAT

                         to

           tjfran@comcast.net

    Questions for MR. Coonellly

     can be submitted by emailling to

           tjfran@comcast.net

                 No tie req

        gathering news update

Since the crowd is growing one simple rule of courtesy is in order.

Everyone gets the chance for a questioin before anyone asks a second question

MarkInDallas wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:28 AM

Good piece on the 10 things to improve the Pirates next year. I've got a comment on a couple of them.

#6 Bolster the middle...

I would like the Pirates to make a serious push to bring back Jack Wilson. Now that the season is over, I looked at the UZR/150 numbers, and there's no doubt that the data backs up what my eyes were seeing. That is that Cedeno's range is average to slightly below average and Jack's of course is much superior.

As I watched Zach Duke pitch and dribbler after dribbler found it's way into left or center field, I thought, "Ouch. Jack's defense is sorely missed." Looking at UZR, it was confirmed.

----------------------------------------

Jack Wilson:

+15.2 UZR/150 in 2009

+16.7 UZR/150 in 2008

----------------------------------------

Ronny Cedeno

-2.6 UZR/150 in 2009

-2.0 UZR/150 in 2006 (the only other year he had enough games)

----------------------------------------

This alone means the Pirates would have 2 more wins over 150 games.

The problem with Wilson as he ages is he won't be able to play as much. Now that we have a credible backup in Cedeno, let's bring Jack back and we don't have to worry about falling back on Vasquez or Luis Cruz. Cedeno's bat is about the same as Jack's although Jack had a down year and was OPS+ 85 and Cedeno was OPS+ 87 with the Pirates.

If the Pirates continue with Cedeno, they'd better trade Duke, because his value will be going down next year.

======================================

#3 Promote Alvarez...

Alvarez should NOT be promoted out of spring training! He needs to spend some time in AAA and prove he can hit AAA pitching before MLB pitching.

Also, extending his 6 years club control to 7 years is not trivial thing, nor is it simply a matter of paying more money. With Alvarez, as a Boras client, it almost certainly means the Pirates will have him an entire season less if they promote him before mid May. Why waste a season of Pedro 5 years from now when the Pirates have more of a chance to be a winning team? Next year may be interesting and exciting, but they are not going to be contenders even in the most rosy scenario.

emoneypitt wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:35 AM

Maz,

You do know that a remake of the classic horror film Children of the Corn just came out right?    Just kidding :)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dejan,

Thanks for another season of excellent coverage through the highs and mostly lows.

I already have been looking forward to the Vancouver Olympics and now I'll be anticipating your take on the events there.

Enjoy the time off with family and friends in the meantime.

JL wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:59 AM

Well if you're not going to take over for NH, then thanks for being just who you are, and doing just what you do.

jersey joe wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 4:04 AM

Markindallas, I am in complete agreement about Pedro, it would be shortsighted and  view of no delayed gratification to suugest he start the year in the big leagues.

Concerning jack, I fear he has burnt his bridge by running his mouth in the paper about the contracts and then causing Freddy to go sour with him.

The two of them would indeed make for a better team on the field if they do not make for worse clubhouse with went on behind the scenes during that tragedy.

Something went amiss during that contract talk timeframe.

Remember smizek basically said the both of them should have taken the Pirates offer and been done with it because they Pirates off may just be the best offers the both of them get.

I know only from my point of view if I am coaching a team, I am not too happy about the chemistry that that type of attitude brings about every time he feels like it he moans and the paper prints it on my team.

The Pirates might not feel the same, even the link not too amny days ago jack says his option is high, so why all the fuss while he was here if he now concedes his option yeear contract is a bit high as he said.

MrB wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 4:17 AM

Upon reviewing the "10 Things" list, I was brutally reminded of what I surmise as the current immaturity at the PBC General Manager position.

The PBC really has a raw, somewhat pompous rookie GM and the 11th thing that I would add to this list is that he has to passionately attend his equivalent of "winter ball", adjust his attitude and step up in a hurry to become more like a productive veteran in his position.

One example (of many available) I'll cite is the lack of left-handed relief pitching. The PBC had two fine LHRs in Burnett and Grabow. The GM dealt them and then had the audacity to announce from Planet Huntington that "left-handed relief pitching was overrated and not needed." Well now that he is currently back on Earth, we need it...swell.

Dejan, thanks for another fine season of work. Enjoy the Winter Games. As for next spring...well, maybe we'll find something within the PBC to get excited about...maybe.

The Deacon wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 4:34 AM

Seattle has an 2010 option on Wilson that they probably will exercise.

Joey Bats wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 5:06 AM

Dejan,

U R the best!

Thank you for a great season of coverage ...during  this horrible (hapless) season.

Joey Bats wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 5:42 AM

$$$$$  “FINAL” BODY WATCH – ATTENDANCE AT MLB PARKS $$$$$

FINAL Stats thru 10/4/09 …

NL Central update:  St.Louis (3.34), Chicago (3.16) and Milwaukee(3.03) have exceeded 3 million in attendance;   Houston (2.52) exceeded 2 million in attendance.  

30. Oakland……81 dates ** 1,408,783 tot  **  17,392 avg.

29. Florida…….78 dates ** 1,464,109 tot  **  18,770 avg.

28. PIRATES …..81 dates ** 1,577,853 tot  **   19,479 avg.

27. Cincinnati……81 dates ** 1,747,919 tot **    21,579 avg

26. Cleveland…..79 dates ** 1,766,242  tot  **   22,357 avg.

*****

2.   NY Yanks …….81 dates **3,719,358 tot   **  45,918 avg.

1.   LA Dodgers…...81 dates**3,761,669 tot  **   46,440 avg.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Total attendance numbers across all of baseball  DROPPED 6.65 percent for the year, the steepest percentage drop since 1952....this reported at the following site>>>

mlb.fanhouse.com/.../mlb-attendance-down-more-than-six-percent-in-2009

JAL wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 6:31 AM

Morning Links Part 2

Pearce Hopes to Find Some Magic

www.theledger.com/.../SPORTS

A Young Bonds?

www.theledger.com/.../SPORTS

Former Rockies pitcher Chacon arrested in Colo.

www.google.com/.../ALeqM5ggR91JtwN3YaXQPncPCSiqU7IfJgD9B5GNQG0

'In theory' vs. 'why they play the game'

www.leader-vindicator.com/.../news.cfm

JAL wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 6:52 AM

THE OFFICIALLY UNOFFICIAL PBC BLOGS AND MLB LINKS:  

Bucs Dugout--Pirates Top 30 Prospects: October 2009 Edition

www.bucsdugout.com/.../pirates-top-30-prospects-october

Why Gavs--An off-season shopping list for the Pirates

whygavs.com/.../my-off-season-shopping-list-for-the-pirates.html

Raise the Jolly Roger--What did we learn in 2009?

raisethejollyroger.com/.../what-did-we-learn-in-2009

The Green Weenie-The Next move

oldbucs.blogspot.com/.../next-move.html

The Green Weenie--Free Agents

oldbucs.blogspot.com/.../free-agents.html

Bucco fans--Pittsburgh Pirates Season in Review

www.buccofans.com/.../pittsburgh-pirates-season-in-review.html

Bucco Fans--BUCCO Fans.com 2009 MVP: Andrew McCutchen

www.buccofans.com/.../bucco-fanscom-2009-mvp-andrew-mccutchen.html

North Side Notch--Pirate Year in Review

www.northsidenotch.com/.../pittsburgh-pirates-year-in-review.html

John Lease wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 6:53 AM

Liked the link to Pearce!  I had to read the story about Bobby Bowden.  

I'm really torn on Pearce too.  I still think there is something there.  I'm not nearly as convinced on Moss.  I think he is what he is.

Drew71 wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 7:36 AM

so what the heck am i going to do at 7:05 tonight??

JosePagan wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 7:36 AM

@ DK: Thank you for all of your hard work and diligence in reporting on this season. Some of the pieces, particularly the one on the Dominican, were above and beyond the usual top-shelf stuff you produce.

I enjoyed your coverage of Athens and look forward to Vancouver, and I wonder how another 4 years has passed by so quickly...

Jose

Thundercrack wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 7:40 AM

MrB,

I recall Huntington saying that left-handed relief pitching was over rated, but I don't recall him saying that it was not needed.

And he did continue his comments by saying they were looking for pitchers that weren't so much of a specialist ---and could get both right and left handed batters out.

------------------------------

Will Jack Wilson only sign with the team that signs Freddie?  That seemed to one of his demands when he was here.

popsfan wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 8:05 AM

Dejan,

Thanks for all the coverage this year, your QPA* rating continues to improve.  

Enloy Vancouver, dress really, really warm.

May Santa bring all the Buccos a little more talent and all the fans a little more painkiller.

*(quality per article)

Drew71 wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 8:51 AM

on the matter of the top ten...well thought out piece.  i agree with most but not all, but good conversation starter.

re: Pedro...even BEYOND the six-year-thing that others have mentioned...even if he starts off on fire in ST, i still want him to do it against the BEST of AAA pitching, which he hasnt seen yet.  in AAA, by mid season, the contenders have often sucked the life out of their AAA teams, expecially pitching, by pulling the better pitchers up as 5th starters and BP support to help with playoff drive.  By September, of course, every team is pulling their best up.  I think it would be good for Pedro to face the first two months of AAA pitching, when it is at it's best.  Not necessarily to "prove" anything to me, but rather to further prepare him for the even better MLB pitching he'll soon face.  (the better pitchers in AAA can throw real curve balls for instance.)  Not as a $ strategy but as a development approach.

On the six-year-thing, i think teams like PBC have to always consider these strategies.  PBC will have other Pedros (i hope) in the future.  the whole concept of filling minors with talent is to have a conveyer belt of talent to PBC that enters, plays well, sometime signs extensions, but sometimes at the end of 6 years is let go for trades or for draft picks.  Like Oakland before this past year.  I wouldnt be so quick to say it's time to stop that...we may always have to do that.  so the key is to have a good pipeline of current AND future talent.

But IMO, the strongest argument for keeping Pedro in Indy to start the year is the developmental one.

Joey Bats wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 8:53 AM

Today is   TUMULTUOUS TUESDAY and we review for the FINAL TIME ….

********* Nyjer Morgan/Sean Burnett Trade  **********

Trade completed on June 30, 2009.  Here’s how the players are doing for their new teams since the trade.

FINAL STATS are through Oct.4, 2009:  

Nyjer Morgan – Washington Nats – OF – Bats L  (went on DL 8/27…season completed)

1 HR  12 RBI  .351  **  49 G, 191 AB, 35R,  67H,  25K, 11 BB, 24 SB  **  .396 OBP .435 .SLG

Sean Burnett – Washington Nats - LHP

1 – 1,  3.20 ERA  **  33 G,  25.1 IP, 14 H, 3HR, 20 K, 13  BB  **  1.07 WHIP .157  OP.AVG

Sean Burnett called the Pirates a "laughingstock" while playing for the only NL team with a worse record.

Joel Hanrahan – Pittsburgh – RHP

0 – 1,  1.72 ERA **  33G, 31.1 IP,  23H,  0HR, 37K,  20 BB  **  1.37 WHIP  .204  OP.AVG.

Lastings Milledge – Pittsburgh  -  OF – Bats R

4HR  20 RBI  .291  ** 58 G,  220 AB,  20R,  64H, 37K,  12 BB,  6 SB **  .333 OBP  .395 SLG

********************************************

radio wave wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 9:01 AM

Good morning inmates near and far.

Drew at 7:05 you could be watching the Twins vs. Tigers game. Or you could be inflating all those air beds for the posters who will take you up on your spring gathering offer.

As for DK's 10 reasons, I agree with all of them except the FA portion. The comments about Roland's affect in Cincy only bolsters my argument that the Bucs needed to keep either Freddie or Jack to maintain some veteran leadership. Spending for a veteran  to fill that role now would not be wise in my view. PA should be given another half season at Triple A.  Any Fa money should be spent on the left handed relief, and a fifth starter. Go into spring training telling LaRoche that second is his to earn, and give Jones one definate position to concentrate on.

JosePagan wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 9:06 AM

@ Drew: My concern though is that the FO will put too much weight into the "control" of the player rather than making a decision based on what is good for the big club.

If Alvarez were to make a strong push this Spring his performance should dictate whether he makes the club.

All this fal de rol about "controlling" players makes an a priori assumption that once they go FA the PBC would never sign any of them. Sometimes I beleive you have to let the talent show and then if it warrants, make a commitment to the talent and try to lock it up long-term.

Jose

1.5

TripleG wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 9:08 AM

Dejan - Thanks for all of the time spent on the blog and all of the great coverage.  Good luck with everything that you work on until spring training.  We'll keep a light on for ya.

Drew - I am 100% with your assessment that the issue is not necessarily money but development with Pedra Alvarez.  I am concerned about rushing him.  We want him to have that McCutchen arrival to the majors, not the Bixler arrival.

LeeFoo wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 9:10 AM

DK,

Thanks to you, I ALWAYS check out the Pirate Blog first!

Have a great 2 months 'off'.

Why Didn't I get to see Roberto? wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 9:13 AM

Rick Ankiel is not the FA Neal should be going after this winter.  Hank Blalock is.  Can play 1B/3B.  At start of 2010 start him @ 1B, with Andy @ 3B, Delwynn @ 2B, and Garrett holding down RF, and Pedro & Jose in AAA.

Then let Pedro dictate actions from there.  Not saying he's a "savior", but this franchise won't see any better days unless Pedro swings a heavy stick at the MLB level.

Once Pedro comes up he goes to 3B, and Andy and Delwynn can platoon 2B (with Andy getting the majority of starts and Delwynn being a PH and spot starter).  Hank stays @ 1B and Garrett stays in RF.

If Jose Tabata comes up, that can move Garrett to the bench (where I think he'll be most effective...how many teams could have a bat like that coming off the bench?).

Also, I'd like them to eat Ramon Vasquez's contract, put Cedeno in the backup role, and sign Kahlil Greene for SS.  I know he has a history with injuries and depression, but Joey Votto dealt with depression, as well as Zach Grienke.  These players have shown they can make it back so why not take a shot?  It's not like it's going to push payroll over that magical line.

What I would like Pirates lineup to look like by July 1, 2010:

1. McCutchen CF

2. Greene SS

3. Blalock 1B

4. Alvarez 3B

5. Milledge LF

6. Tabata RF

7. Doumit C

8. LaRoche 2B

9. Pitcher P

Bench:

Cedeno, Young, Jones, Jaramillo (or Diaz), Pearce/Moss (I'd actually go Pearce because he can play 1B & RF)

I think a lineup like that could surprise some people.  Lot of "ifs" though, but what would the Pirates be without 'em?

Why Didn't I get to see Roberto? wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 9:20 AM

Dejan,

As someone said above me, I always check the PBC blog first.  Even after the season is over, this is still the 1st website I visit every morning when getting into work and having my cup of coffee.  All of your hard work is very appreciated.

I am studying now to try and break into the world of sports talk radio (possibly considering journalism too...when I read how much you love your work, it makes me think of how I too would welcome (at least now anyways until I got a taste of it ;) ) the grind of the news paper beat writer).  Your fantastic coverage of the Pittsburgh Pirates (is it possible that a franchise steeped in so much awfulness could have 2 of the best things in baseball?  Stadium and beat coverage?  I THINK SO!) keeps us coming back, and always makes for lively (although not always healthy) discussion for us Bucco fans.

All is appreciated and I will continue to follow.  Now, just gotta get that PG+ membership prior to ST next season.

Good luck in all you do, and I hope Vancouver is a blast.  If nothing, you should get to see some fantastic hockey.  I know I can wait.

Thanks again and be well.

WTM wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 9:23 AM

Crediting Rolen's veteranosity for the Reds' strong finish is a classic correlation = causation argument.  The Reds finished strongly because their starters were lights-out the last six weeks, the horrible Willy Taveras was out of the lineup, Joey Votto and Jay Bruce were in the lineup, and Rolen himself was a much better player than Adam Rosales.

It's especially funny to chalk the Reds' play up to having a veteran presence because, back when they were losing all the time, they had veterans like Taveras, Ramon Hernandez, Alex Gonzalez and Jerry Hairston.  They had MORE veteran presence when they were losing.  And Rolen has been known more as a malcontent than anything else for many years.

The Pirates don't need veterans, they need good players.

JosePagan wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 9:38 AM

@ WTM: Amen to that.

Jose

2

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 9:42 AM

Joey Bats,

I posted a list yesterday of Asylum Absolutes using your format and requesting that you use it in your updates.  Some took that as a shot at you.  Just wanted to let you know that it was not the intent. In fact, I enjoyed your postings throughout the season, patricularly the trade updates.

Thanks and my apologies if it was taken the wrong way.

Cave Bonifield wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 9:50 AM

Well, we have seen alot of baseball since the Nyjmo Bus first pulled out of the station last April.  

Here are  TEN THINGS I LOVED ABOUT THE 2009 SEASON.

10. Following our minor leaguers.  It is about as much hope as I can handle.

9.    This blog., and the dedication of JJ, JAL, Joey Bats, Baywatch, NuHo,  and the rest of you lifers.

8.    Garrett Jones running out every ball like his clothes were on fire.

7.    No excuses.  This team stunk, and the players owned up to it.

6.    DK.  Always a voice of reason and a fifth dimension of consciousness.

5.    Pirates Charities.  The good often goes unnoticed.

4.    Robinzon Diaz.  A pure hitter with passion who is a joy to watch

3.   Andrew McCutchen rounding second base.  I would love to see a video of him leaving the starting blocks during his days as a sprinter in high school.  

2.    Nyjmo.  We had the spice in our sauce and let him go.  It has been bland ever since.

1.    The first pitch of each and every game.  Win or lose, I love them all.  

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 9:54 AM

Cave,

5.    Pirates Charities.  The good often goes unnoticed.

Not with that freakin sign out there!  ;-)  That was for DK!!

Thundercrack wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 9:57 AM

Maybe the Reds did so well after they aquired Rolen because they played the Pirates so many times  ;-)

In regards to veteran leadership, I think the team could use more.  ( I was never a big believer in it, but now I am a little more).   We learned that Monroe and HInske were not going to provide it.   And I have my doubts as to whether Freddie or Jack would have either.

TheSaltyRogue wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 9:59 AM

Thanks DK for making this my first stop every morning for roughly 8 months.  Don't always agree with you, don't always like what is written - but I always respect it since it's coming from the best in the business and look forward to reading the next time... even if I have to wait until December.

That said, post-gazette.com and the PBC Blog now drop down to #2 in my go-to morning list so I can focus entirely on my other true love - my Cleveland Browns.

Let no one EVER call me a front-runner, haha

GO BUCS.

Drew71 wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 10:19 AM

Radio - i like the poster idea.

Others who commented...i think what i've learned from reading opinions is that this is not an easy decision of what to do if Pedro does well in ST.  suffice it to say:

- my position was taken primarily on developmental needs, not for contract reasons...but you're points (those who disagree) are also logical.  I guess i recognize that if he hits 9 HRs in ST, has a clear plan at plate in his ABs, hits .350...or some similar numbers...i could be swayed.  I'd still worry a bit that he's not seeing pitchers at their best.  Some of even the best pitchers work on one thing in ST - stamina, or just throwing fast balls etc - and a couple of months more in AAA wouldnt kill him.  But there is SOME point at which i'd say, ok, further AAA development is not necessary.

- no matter which choice is made, about a third to a half of us will dislike it, and mostly vehemently.

maybe this means it's not the biggest problem to have.  Getting someone MLB ready at 2B, fining a L relief pitcher, fixing Capps and Hart, getting another big bat...these are the bigger problems to focus on.

Ok, off to meetings in Nashville, then flying to Dallas, so wont have time to continue the discussion.  But happy hunting to all!

jersey joe wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 10:33 AM

Pedro Strikes out too much to make the jump from AA to the big leagues, allow the young man to grow.

Why Didn't I get to see Roberto? wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 10:44 AM

Ryan Howard K's at one of the highest rates in the MLB yet puts up historical numbers (hey only 3 other guys in history of baseball with 4 strait seasons of 40+ HRs 130+ RBIs),  Power hitters are supposed to strike out a lot (Pujols is the exception).  With large swings come many misses.  If he can provide even half the support that Howard does for the Phils, I'll be happy (although his avg. would have to be a little higher that Howards).  

Let Pedro tell us when he's ready.  He will.

Cave Bonifield wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 10:48 AM

A glaring omission on my #9.  Is anyone more dedicated than DMac for her play by play calling ?

I can just picture her do a simulated play by play broadcast off the wire like Ronald Reagan used to do.  

WTM wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 11:05 AM

@ Thundercrack,

Assuming you think veteran leadership is important, as many do, here's a big question that never gets addressed:  How do you figure out who's going to provide it?  Every single veteran the Pirates have ever signed has been touted as a veteran presence.  EVEN DEREK BELL was touted by management as a guy who'd provide veteran leadership.  Hinske was supposed to provide it this year.

Basically, whenever a team makes a questionable acquisition of a veteran player, the move gets justified with the veteran presence argument.  If the team then wins, the veteran gets credit for his leadership.  If the team sucks, then everybody forgets the veteran leadership stuff and the next veteran to come along is touted as a leader.

JAL wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 11:11 AM

I am with WTM--veterans can't take a poor team anywhere.  Some veterans can help some young players get better by teaching them some things, like how to throw a certain pitch but they can't a loser into a winner.

InZiskWeTrust wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 11:11 AM

Why Didn't I,

You'd rather have Tabata in RF and Blalock at 1B with The Legend riding the pine as a PH?

WOW! That shocks me to no end.

Blalock hit .234/25/66 and had an OPS+ of 89 in 150 ABs more than Jones who hit .293/21/44 and had an OPS+ of 149!

JAL wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 11:14 AM

as for stikeouts--posted these in morning links a few days ago

Mark Reynolds valuable even with record strikeouts

www.chicagotribune.com/.../chi-04-rogers-inside-baseball-oct04,0,6183713.column

Increase in strikeouts is A-OK

sports.yahoo.com/.../news

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 11:19 AM

JJ-I think some of Pedro's Ks in A ball was that he was overeager to prove himself.  There were series where he didn't see a strike until the late innings, then knocked balls over to the river.  

I think Pedro should start at AAA, just to get some feel of MLB pitching.  Also, I don't want the FO jumping on his case over conditioning.   Obviously, he was in shape for Lynchburg.

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 11:26 AM

JAL- I'm of the attitude that 125K in 600 at-bats is ok.  Ryan Howard can't touch Felcicano from the Mets with a Paddle.  Reynolds had an amazing year, but I can't see a guy that strikes out that much sustaining a long career.  

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 11:30 AM
Why Didn't I get to see Roberto? wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 11:33 AM

@ InZisk

Garrett Jones has exactly 391 career ABs (with 314 coming this season).  Not knocking Jones for what he did, but a 28 year old rookie?  continuing this kind of production?  I'd rather have the guy I describe below playing everyday who has done it over multiple seasons.

Hank Blalock (who is the same age) has 3504 career ABs.  He has hit 25+ HRs in 4 of 7 seasons and knocked in 85+ runs in 4 of the 7 as well.  He has a career avg. of .269 (while batting above .270 in 4 of the 7 seasons).

Also, all of my above depends on Tabata's learning curve as well.  With Tabata being 21 (at least that's what they tell us), clearly he is mgts. choice for the future in the OF.  It may take a season or two at AAA, but with what he's done in the Yankee and now Pirate orgs.  I'd say he could be ready by middle of next season.

I'm just saying get em up and get em goin (when they're ready, which I'm hoping will be by July 1 of next season).  These kids are going to be the resurgence of baseball in Pittsburgh.  Garrett Jones can be an extremely nice role player (or a valuable trade piece possibly) down the line, but he is definitely not a future position player (if they sign Hank Blalock).

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 11:35 AM

Zisk,

I'm with you on this one.  I inject as much power into this lineup as I can at this point. If it's Blalock that's fine but Jones is my right fielder.  If it's Ankiel, and I'm leery of him, then Jones is my first baseman.  I can see a time in the future when Jones is rotating through two or three positions after Alvarez arrives but in 2010 I want him out there every day.

As good as I think this rotation can be, they'll still need someone to score runs for them.  

I see where the Rays are canning Steve Henderson the hittling coach due to poor situational hitting.  Boy, does that sound familiar!!

The Deacon wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 11:44 AM

"JAL- I'm of the attitude that 125K in 600 at-bats is ok.  Ryan Howard can't touch Felcicano from the Mets with a Paddle.  Reynolds had an amazing year, but I can't see a guy that strikes out that much sustaining a long career.  "

Adam Dunn has had a very good career so far of 9 high-strikeout but high production seasons.

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 11:47 AM

And the Rays can hit.  The only guy that didn't hit on that team was Burrell.  I mean, the Rays were right there until the Kazmir trade (who may very well be the difference in the Angels winning).  The Marlins want to fire their manager because they didn't make the playoffs, but the owner siphons off money.

JR and NH should be happy that unrealistic expectations don't exist yet in Pittsburgh.  However, another year like this one and the 2011 plan may not be seen by fruition.  

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 11:55 AM

Deacon- I agree 100% on Dunn.  He is ultra selective and walks like 100 times to about 170Ks.  Reynolds is the guy I want on someone else's team that 200k as season kills a lineup.  Reynolds is the 2nd coming of Dave Kingman, while Dunn is more like Mark McGwire.  

The Pirates struck out way too much as a team.  One thing I really liked about Freddy was he was a low strikeout guy, and often would work the count to 8-10 pitches.  

juan pizarro wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 11:57 AM

Dejan,

thanks again for all your efforts this season in providing the best baseball coverage here every day, from on-field to off. Also enjoyed your "To" series above, letting us get to know some of these folks a bit more personally.

And, in doing a final check on the metrics sites, your final UZR rating is +17.5, a BABIP of .372, and a WAR of 12.5 so even they agree with my sentiments. ;)

Enjoy your "off"-season!

Srsly

JuanP

The Deacon wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 12:05 PM

The last offseason would have been a better time to get a power bat, unless we're going to be in on Holliday or Bay (which we aren't).  Dunn and Raul Ibanez could have been had for a little over $10 million a year.

21sthebest wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 12:05 PM

"One thing I really liked about Freddy was he was a low strikeout guy, and often would work the count to 8-10 pitches. "

Well it's obviously better to put the ball in play but I thought he countered that by not taking more walks.  His OBP hasn't been very good the past couple of years and he's never had a very good spread between BA and OBP.

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 12:14 PM

Has anyone seen a list of prospective FA's in 2011?  I'm not thrilled with the power prospects in the 2010 group and I'm concerned about not having anyone to hit behind Alvarez when he gets here.  

I just thought of a prospective FA this year that might fit the bill here and provide some power.........Barry Bonds anyone?

Let the thrashing begin.

Why Didn't I get to see Roberto? wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 12:23 PM

@ Betterdays

That's y I am staunchly for pursuing Hank Blalock instead of Ankiel.  I think there's much more power potential there.  Plus, isn't Blalock like 2 years younger and not connected to HGH?

joerevs300 wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 12:35 PM

Not surprising no one here made a mention of Alan Robinson's article on the Pirates, though I suppose I shouldn't have figured any different...one thing did stand out:

"Their 22-58 road record was their worst since the NL adopted a 162-game season in 1962."

Maybe they improve 8 games on that side.  That puts them to 70 wins.  So even though they did play well at PNC Park, they would have to improve that record by 12 wins just to get to .500 next season.

I've never said there's no hope here, but as DK pointed out (his point #10 should have been point #1 IMO), you can only put off fielding a competitive ML club for so long.  And as Mr. Robinson pointed out, no club bats 1.000 with their prospects, but the Pirates need to come as close to perfect as possible.

Meanwhile, they are still employing scouts and talent evaluators that worked for Littlefield.  

Because we all know Littlefield could evaluate talent right?

WTM wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 12:42 PM

Most of the staff is new.  The idea that you would automatically fire everybody who worked for Littlefield is pretty absurd.  Somebody scouted Andrew McCutchen, Ryan Doumit, Matt Capps, Zach Duke and Paul Maholm.  Somebody recommended the trades for Bay and Sanchez.  I'd rather have management that was trying to figure out which staff members were worth keeping than management that just came in with a flamethrower and roasted everybody in sight.

WNels89 wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 12:42 PM

I really think it's wrong to hold back prospects when they are obviously ready to play in the majors.  If Pedro is the best 3rd baseman in spring training, he ought be with the club on opening day.  Pirates did the same with Cutch.  Tampa Bay did the same thing with David Price.  The Nats will do the same with Strasburg.  If the player is good enough (or better than the alternative), he should start.  I don't care if I have control of him one more year in 2016.  Hopefully by then he's either signed long-term or traded.  Any thoughts?

Fat Jimmy wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 12:50 PM

Guys, there is a common misconception whenever anyone talks about the need of a "veteran".  A lot of people have been criticizing that comment because they are thinking about it like the Doug M. veteran -- i.e. unofficial coach, clubhouse morale, "do-it-the-right-way" influence etc.

I don't think that was Dejan's point.  And it definitely isn't mine.

Rolen changed the Reds' dynamics ON the field.  (not off)  He's a legitimate power hitter.  He's a veteran hitter -- meaning, you can't get him out the same way you may be able to outthink a rookie in key situations.  His bat takes pressure off of younger players who perhaps aren't ready to shoulder the responsibility of run production in the lineup.

The Bucs could really use that.  We may never know how good some of these guys can be if the FO keeps tossing them in the deep end to come to the conclusion that they can't swim.  By adding a couple of veterans (again, not Doug M. guys -- guys who can actually play), we can let Lastings develop out of the #6 hole instead of hitting cleanup.  Someone can protect Garrett in the order.  Etc.

Now, I realize it is naive of me to say "we need a kick-butt cleanup hitter" ... hey, is Albert Pujols available? ;-)  But there may be some teams this offseason who are in salary dump mode.  If someone is looking to unload salary, we should be in conversation about taking it on.  Again, I'm alignment with DK on this one -- you don't block guys (Cutch, PA, Jones), but if there is a veteran SS, 2B, 1B/RF or even a C or possibly 3B, we should be thinking about it.

I understand the conveyor belt premise of the minor league talent, but I do worry that we will misdiagnose a lot of our young talent because they couldn't handle the pressure of being the "main guy".  (see: LaRoche, Adam)

The Deacon wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 12:53 PM

"If the player is good enough (or better than the alternative), he should start.  I don't care if I have control of him one more year in 2016.  Hopefully by then he's either signed long-term or traded.  Any thoughts?"

Besides the financial motives, calling up a player too soon could hurt his development.  It depends on the player.  Some need to work on technique or increase their confidence in AAA longer than others.

One thing the team did do right was handle McCutchen.  He was able to pick up momentum and confidence in two excellent months of AAA, and that carried over to the majors.  If he would have been with the major league team in April and fell in a month-long early-season slump, that could have hurt his mental approach for the rest of the year.

A lot of top prospects flop in their very first stint in the big leagues.  It's a difficult process to handle their promotions the best.

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 12:56 PM

Why,

Yes, I've been touting the virtues of a Blalock signing as well.  MarkInDallas pointed out that Blalock's days at third may be over due to shoulder problems.  That taints him somewhat for me.  However, he would be more affordable I would assume due to that fact.  I would question how much that shoulder hampers his swing.  He still hit 25 dingers but the average was way down.  

I've always liked him while living in Dallas and watching him play but haven't seen him consistently since leaving there a few years ago.  

Trade may be our better option.

21sthebest wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 1:01 PM

"Maybe they improve 8 games on that side.  That puts them to 70 wins.  So even though they did play well at PNC Park, they would have to improve that record by 12 wins just to get to .500 next season."

It's a tall order.  But then again, the Rays improved 31 games from 2007 to 2008.

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 1:04 PM

joe,

Nothing really new in the column.  After seeing the lead by Dejan, I actually thought the tone was better than expected.  

It was a rehashing of what has been discussed and debated here ad nauseum but Robinson presentd it to a national audience thus I would guess that's why it didn't get mentioned today.

I think there are ceratinly some valid points made and they dovetail with what DK stated in his writing and that has been discussed all morning.

JAL wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 1:06 PM
The Deacon wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 1:06 PM

Nick Johnson wouldn't be a bad signing.  He has a .400+ on base percentage for his career.  The Pirates need power, but they also don't get on base.  He could hit 2nd and help us out there while Alvarez and Jones supply the power.  The injuries are the biggest concern, though.  Batting order:

McCutchen

N. Johnson

Jones

Alvarez

Doumit

Milledge

LaRoche

J.J. Hardy?

Pitcher

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 1:11 PM

JAL,

Thanks, as always.  There's the solution!  We need to go get Albert Pujols!!

21sthebest wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 1:18 PM

Garrett Jones needs to demonstrate that he can hit with RISP before we let him sit in the third spot all year.  We actually might have produced more runs if we flip flopped him and Cutch in the order.

joerevs300 wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 1:19 PM

@ the Rays/Pirates comparison:

The Rays actually hit gold with how many prospects during that season?  4? 5?  The odds of that happening, as A.Robinson pointed out, is exceedingly rare.

Just think about this for a second...that's saying Hart makes a complete 180, Andy LaRouche actually starts hitting the baseball, both Tabata and Alvarez are everything as advertised, and Charlie Morton comes through too.

And even if all of those things happened, I just don't see where you can find that level of improvement for the Pirates.

The closest they honestly were was the beginning of 2008, before their starting pitching completely imploded the first two months of the season, which gassed the bullpen and led to the initial fire sale/trades of the Pirates outfield.  

I can't help but think that this year was more than just a step back.  It is as if it has DEFINED what the culture of Pirate baseball will be next decade, which is:

- some flashes of greatness

- some points of contention

- but ultimately ending with somewhere between 60-80 wins and no NL Central titles/playoffs.

My biggest problem with this ballclub is with not only its ownership but also in its front office...

Why CAN'T the Pirates have a $60M payroll IF they are spending it wisely both to lock up their good players and mix in needed FA's somewhere AND keep spending at the levels they have in the draft?

WHY do the Pirates insist on keeping ANYONE from the failure that was the Dave Littlefield era on staff?

WHY, after a team fails to win 70 games in 4 years is there NOT as much upheaval in the FO as their is with the ML roster?

WHY is it acceptable to put a AAA club out for the 2nd half of 2 consecutive seasons, and charge the fans ML prices to see them (though as a counterpoint, the Pirates offer one of the cheapest tickets in MLB, pretty much as a necessity).

But finally...WHAT does it say to the fans frustration when some of the home games in the final 2 weeks had less than 2000 people actually there?  Is anyone paying attention?  Are the fans who didn't come "bad" fans?

The Pirates need to take the whole kitchen, not just the kitchen sink, and make sure by 2011 they have a ballclub that can contend for the NL Central title, and not just be happy with .500.

Because another season of attendance like this...and I just KNOW what is coming...

10/6/2010

Pirates GM "ML Payroll increase is out of the question"

By D.K.  :)

After seeing a season in which the Pirates made strides by their standards, winning 75 games, but seeing fans finally have had enough, driving attendance down to a ML worst 17,000 per game, the Pirates front office has made it known they cannot increase their ML payroll for 2011.

"While we understand the fans frustration as we try to make this into a world class organization, current economic conditions as well as reductions in revenue have put us in a position where we cannot increase our ML payroll at this time".

in any case...you heard it here first. :)

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 1:20 PM

Fat Jimmy- You are preaching to the "Get Dan Uggla" choir.  Now trading with the Marlins is never an easy task (see Josh Beckett (Hanley Ramirez)), but get Uggla out of that ballpark, and he's a 40HR player.  They are a big team as far as "cultivating trades", and they are rarely wrong.   I'm thinking Gorky, Watts and a pitcher (one of the ones in the Seatte).. granted I'm not a MLB GM.  

I want Uggla, not Jorge Cantu.  Marlins can't afford all of them and both the Yankees and Redsox have all-star 2b.  

Yes you will have to pay him, but why not work him into a 3 year deal.  

WTM wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 1:22 PM

@ Jimmy,

To the extent you're saying Rolen improved the Reds on the field because he was better than the guy he replaced (Adam Rosales, who was awful), I already noted that.  To the extent you're saying he somehow made everybody else better, that's just the Mientkiewicz argument again.  He didn't hit for any power with the Reds.  His slugging average was .401 and his OPS+ was 99 (which was actually lower than Mientkiewicz's OPS+ last year).  He didn't take the pressure off anybody by being a great run producer, because he wasn't one.  If there was some kind of extra effort required to get him out simply because he's a veteran, then the Reds should have been better earlier in the season when they had more veterans in the lineup.  They weren't very good hitters, but neither was Rolen after joining the Reds.  As far as I can see--and I haven't seen any evidence here to the contrary--this still boils down to getting better players, regardless of how old they are.  I think a 25-year-old Joey Votto posting an OPS+ of 152 will take a heck of a lot more pressure off any lineup, young or old, than a veteran with an OPS+ of 99.

indianafanatic wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 1:23 PM

Wow talk about pipe dreams

I gotta know what sum yinz been smoking

Hank Blalock?

And what makes you think that the Cards are just gonna let Ankiel go?

Only if they hire Opie as there new GM!

Folks this is gonna take some time. Rome wasn't build over night with a few extra soldiers. I know it has been SEVENTEEN YEARS.

Pipe dream of mine after toting a few tokes

CF AMac

2B Orlando

1B Albert

C Mauer

3B ARod

LF Holliday

RF Manny

SS Jeter

P CC, AJ, Greinke, Lincecum, and Cain

If we are going to dream let's dream big.

Winter meetings are going to be held in INDY, have any of you guys gone to those before, I have plenty of time to re-arrange my schedule so  will probably go for at least one day maybe two if my son will let me stay at his place. What do I look for, would I be able to chat with Neal or Frank? Any suggestions from thew group about what to ask or demand?

WTM wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 1:25 PM

"WHY do the Pirates insist on keeping ANYONE from the failure that was the Dave Littlefield era on staff?"

So you'd fire Rene Gayo?

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 1:26 PM

joerevs,

Heard it here first?  Are you serious?

I've read it here daily for six months!!  lol

Pgh_fan_in_NH wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 1:27 PM

Wnels:

In general I am against throwing out that extra year for 2 months of a players time in AAA. That is even more important when the player's agent is Boras. No hometown discount, no buying out FA years. His clients try out FA almost exclusively.  

joerevs300 wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 1:27 PM

@WTM.

Is having him going to guarantee we are going to get the best prospects in that region?

It would appear to me he's a large reason we lost Sano in the first place!

21sthebest wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 1:30 PM

"And even if all of those things happened, I just don't see where you can find that level of improvement for the Pirates."

I agree Joe.  But you seemed to indicate that a 20 game improvement was going to be difficult and I agree with that.  I was just pointing out that the Rays improved 31 games so although 20 is a tall order, I wouldn't say it's out of the question.

"WHY do the Pirates insist on keeping ANYONE from the failure that was the Dave Littlefield era on staff?"

Like who?  You can't fire everybody.  And maybe the scouts from the DL era still here have been equipped with new methods to evaluate players.

21sthebest wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 1:34 PM

"Is having him going to guarantee we are going to get the best prospects in that region?"

Is having anybody except Jesus Christ going to guarantee that we get the best prospects in that region?

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 1:41 PM

21st-  I don't think Jesus would have THAT many more games.  He would have need Holy Spirit to play SS.

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 1:44 PM

joe,

I just re-read your post.  I'm a little confused.  Are you advocating that they should blow it up completely?  Was that what the kitchen metaphor represents?  If so, isn't that what they did?

Obviously the current FO has been there just two years so the four year comment doesn't seem to have much relevance here.  I do understand the frustration with this past season.  But you alluded to the starting pitching imploding in 2008 and then the bullpen getting gassed.  Isn't that what they're trying to avoid in the future by stocking the system with more depth and talent.  Then if someone falters or is injured, you have options.  

I do agree that they can spend more on the ML roster.  I would do that if the talent is available to be had and it fits an area of need.  We've been discussing Blalock and Ankiel but beyond that there doesn't seem to be much qulaity in the FA market.  That would leave a trade as an option but I'd hate to part with too many prospects for a short-term solution.

I agree that the improvement in 2010 may not be drastic but I anticipate improvement nonetheless.  You talk about fielding a competitive team for 2011.  With the continued maturation and improvement of the pitching staff, I think they are on track for that.  They will need to supplement the current roster but the FO has indicated the wilingness to do so when the time is right.  It would appear that 2011 will be that time.

jersey joe wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 1:44 PM

Lets remember we did manage to win we managed to learn, I say there is an easy 15 games right there.

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 1:49 PM

21/Why,

I wouldn't do anything with Jesus this year otherwise you lose a year of club control.  save him for 2011 when you need him to protect Alvarez in the lineup.

21sthebest wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 1:49 PM

Stan,

I wonder if Plummer would have been hosed off if Jesus Christ went directly to Sano's family?

Come to think of it, Plummer probably thinks he's JC so never mind.

Why Didn't I get to see Roberto? wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 1:53 PM

What's so crazy about the Pirates making an aggressive move to sign Hank Blalock in FA?

Now if the crazy thing is that he'll actually sign here that's fine, but his bat would look great in this lineup (Lefty McThump? x2 with Alvarez? x3 with Jones?).  I think it would behoove this FO to go out and make an aggresive play for Blalock.

Everyone has their price.  Neal, find Hank's!

Pgh_fan_in_NH wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:00 PM

Re 20 game improvement:

How many games during that horrid losing streak were from the bullpen collapsing, or from want of one hit with RISP? That is a good number  of games that can be picked up with a better bullpen and a few timely hits from PA, a FA RFer, or an improved AndyL if he keeps swinging like he did to end the year..

WNels89 wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:01 PM

People, 'you play to win the game!'  That means puting the best team out there on opening day.  Pedro Alvarez is not a kid, he's a man.  He played college ball, he played over in Europe for the US.  He can handle the majors.  You think it's fair to David Price that he goes from pitching well against the Phillies in the World Series last year to starting the regular season in AAA Durham?  

And

Who cares if Scott Boras is his agent.  WTF, why the hell is everybody scared of Scott Boras?  I know he gets his players a lot of money, but in most cases, his players deserve the money.

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:03 PM

Fat Jimmy,

Excellent point about the "main guy" pressure.  I think that had a negative impact on any number of guys who were placed in a position of having to do more than what they were capable of.  We did not have a cleanup hitter but a bunch of guys who batted fourth and they tried to be cleanup hitters and it didn't work.

I like the idea of veteran leadership but it does have to be a solid contributing leader at this point in time.  If this lineup had a big hitter in the middle, pre-Alvarez, then everyone moves down in the order to a more appropriate slot.  Once PA gets here then the lineup just gets deeper.

It alos makes the pitching better because now they get more offensive support and it all just snowballs from there.  

But who is the guy available in FA or trade?  Is it Uggla?  Crawford?  We have an abundance of arms right now at many levels.  Who is desperate for pitching?  Ah, to be a GM......

jersey joe wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:03 PM

that was suppose to be not manage to win managed to learn

wormburner wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:06 PM

@joerevs - re: "Meanwhile, they are still employing scouts and talent evaluators that worked for Littlefield.  

Because we all know Littlefield could evaluate talent right?"

-----------------------------

Scouting and evaluating talent are very different things than actually acquiring ballplayers.  Your blanket criticism is misguided at best.

WTM wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:07 PM

"Is having him going to guarantee we are going to get the best prospects in that region?"

Interesting standard.  You do realize that there isn't a single person in baseball who can meet it . . . ?

21sthebest wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:08 PM

"I wouldn't do anything with Jesus this year otherwise you lose a year of club control. "

I feel free pretty confident though, that he'd sign a long term deal at a hometown discount.

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:08 PM

fyi.. MLB trade rumors has the free agent listings projections..

Darn it, Bettincourt is  Type A, and so if Vlad.  

JAL wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:11 PM

While it always interesting to speculate on FA's you can't can't make many decisions until the story unfolds.  No FA is guaranteed to be an FA

Let's take Blalock--one of three things will happen.  The team the player is on retains exclusive right to deal with him until 15 days after the WS ends.  So some prospective FAs will sign a new contract with their old team.  The team may also offer the player binding arbitration.  If the player accepts, he stays.  If the player rejects arb. he becomes a free agent.    Blalock will probably be unclassified so draft picks will not come into the picture.  Still, Blalock may never become a free agent and the Pirtaes can't make an offer until 15 days after the WS.

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:12 PM

Why Didn't I,

No argument here. I've been on that train for a week now.  I'd like it even more if he could give me a year at third so Jones can stay at first but if Jones has to play RF then I can live with it.  I just want more power in the lineup in 2010 and I want someone to protect PA in 2011.  I think that's the club's biggest need right now.

JAL wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:12 PM

WSB

Vlad listed for his past, not his present.  

Pgh_fan_in_NH wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:16 PM

WNels: Who cares if Scott Boras is his agent.  WTF, why the hell is everybody scared of Scott Boras?  I know he gets his players a lot of money, but in most cases, his players deserve the money.

I am not afraid of him, just putting out the facts. Scott Boras's clients nearly always try out free agency. For the price of ~50 games with AndyLa or Walker at 3rd, you can buy a guaranteed year of a player that may be one of the best in the game at that point. I see that as a small price to pay for a team that is not likely to be challenging for a play off spot next year with or without Pedro in the lineup from day one.

Why Didn't I get to see Roberto? wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:22 PM

@ JAL

Thanks for throwing that cog in!!!!!!! J/king, but def a necessary thing I am leaving out.

So, if Hank doesn't sign a new contract with Texas...

Neal, FIND.  THAT.  PRICE!!!!!!

Lee wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:22 PM

I very rarely comment in this forum but I have to say I really enjoy the fair coverage that DK brings to the table.  It is a pleasure to read even if we do not agree.  As for us nut cases that still believe in the Pirates keep believing like I do.  it will turn around!

Why Didn't I get to see Roberto? wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:23 PM

Iuno pghfaninNH....

Evan Longoria comes to mind.....

Pirata13 wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:24 PM

DK--Thanks for another great year of coverage!  You're the best!

JAL wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:25 PM

The current CBA on arb and FA needs to be revisited.  It doesn't serve the player or the team.  A better rule would be to have 4 years til arb and then 3 years of arb with the rookie rule of 130 at-bats or 50 innings counting as year exempting September call ups.That would end the need to keep players down two months just get that extra year.  It would be better for the team because they could have a player in the majors earlier and it would help the player because he would be able to start his MLB career sooner.  

WNels89 wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:27 PM

Dude, If Pedro's bat can make a difference of five or six wins that 50 games time and puts us on a faster track to winning, I'm all for it.  It'd be worth that 2015 year.  

At one time, Free Agency was a good thing for baseball.  The player got to choose where to go, rather than the team controlling him his entire career.  It also allow teams to fill needs on their roster easier.  Now it's viewed negatively because it means only a handfull of teams have a serious shot of signing a high-priced player.

The Deacon wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:28 PM

Other under the radar options at first base in free agency are Carlos Delgado or even Russell Branyan.  Both of them could easily add 30+ home run power to the Bucs.

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:33 PM

After watching Guerrero play this season I wouldn't go anywhere near him.  He's big, slow and can't effectively play in the field for an entire season.  Seems like his bat has slowed considerably as well.

But what a nice player for a long, long time.

PressKyle wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:37 PM

Scattered Thoughts (haven't had the opportunity to comment lately), but here are a few things-

Was anyone else besides me bothered by Pirates players commenting that the push to avoid 100 losses was "their World Series" and they were elated that they able to bear down and win enough to accomplish their goal? Does that imply that pror to that they were kind of going through the motions before that? That really bugged me.

There's no way the Pirates, under this administration, will hire an outspoken, loose cannon style manager like Ozzie Guillen. He's too outspoken, too opinionated, too combative. They want someone who will , without questioning anything, just keep his nose to the grindstone and unemotionally continue to accept the unfortunate hand that all Pirate managers since Leyland have been dealt. In Russell's case, having to preside over almost an entire year of extended spring training is something that only someone with his demeanor and track record would even consider doing. When he was hired, despite his lack of accomplishment, I feared that things might go exactly the way they have from a rebuilding standpoint-that is, the Coonely/Huntington "blow up the building" project that the Pirates are now.

Now that people are talking about LaRoche moving to 2B, it's evident that the Pirates are finally pursuing something I've been telling everyone all year: Alverez should stay at 3rd. He can make all the plays the position requires, and if he does improve his condition, he should be a fixture at 3B starting in June 2010.

I'd like to add my compliments and thanks to DK for his outstanding attitude, effort and expertise in covering the haplessness that was the 2009 Pirates. Great job. It did indeed give me a reason to stay tuned into the team, despite their horrible season.

My predictions for off-season trades include the possibilities that Duke, Doumit, and Capps will be dealt for more "suspects", er, prospects. If LaRoche resists or bungles the move to 2B, he could be gone as well, though that would more likely happen during June or July

JAL wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:38 PM

Deacon

Not sure about Branyan--where did those HRs come from?  He hit 31 this season but the most he ever before was 24 back in 2002.  He had hit over 20 in any season since until this one.  he hit 9 in 2003, 11 in 2004, 12 in 2005, 18 in 2006, 10 in 2007, and 10 in 2008.  

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:39 PM

Deacon,

Interesting note on Branyan, in '06 he was dealt from the Rays to the Padres for none other than Evan Meek.  

The Deacon wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:42 PM

"Not sure about Branyan--where did those HRs come from?  He hit 31 this season but the most he ever before was 24 back in 2002.  He had hit over 20 in any season since until this one.  he hit 9 in 2003, 11 in 2004, 12 in 2005, 18 in 2006, 10 in 2007, and 10 in 2008.  "

Look at the number of at bats each season.  He never really got even 400 at bats before this year.  His HR/AB were always good.  Again though, he's another case where they'll have to monitor the health.

Pgh_fan_in_NH wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:44 PM

WNels:

We will have to agree to disagree. I would rather have Pedro an extra year during his peak when the games may mean something  than an extra two months while he figures out ML pitching on a team that is heading home come October.

DMac wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:45 PM

Just quickly today...I'm suffering through withdrawal symptoms.  I miss the Buccos.  :-(

Dejan, thank you for your hard work.  I don't go anywhere else to get up-to-date news on the Pirates.  And I very much appreciate your answering questions, or getting answers for us.  

Thanks Cave...and everyone else...for the kind words.  It means a lot to me.

As for Alvarez, I can't imagine that he'd make the team straight out of ST.  It doesn't appear to be NH's M.O.  I would guess that he would at least start the season in Indy, to get some AAA AB's under his belt first.  But I've been wrong before.  :-)

Why Didn't I get to see Roberto? wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:48 PM

Evan Meek gonna be throwing a hundo?  That's it.  Chavez 7th, Meek 8th, Hanrahan 9th...

Capps....

please Neal, find Mr. Capps an appropriate suitor!  This team doesn't need to waste anymore time with him.

WNels89 wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 2:55 PM

I think Branyan is a fluke.  Similiar to Adam LaRoche after his 2006 season.  Stay away Buccos!  I'm routing for Blalock or Ankiel.  Austin Kearns at a low price?

WNels89 wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 3:01 PM

"I would rather have Pedro an extra year during his peak when the games may mean something  than an extra two months while he figures out ML pitching on a team that is heading home come October."

Pgh_Fan,

We've gotta get to the games that mean something first.

JAL wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 3:02 PM

Deacon

True on the ABs but with his age and injury history that would not be a sure thing.  I think if the Pirates go after a power hitter they would be better off going for someone with a better track record.  Branyan has been traded, released, sent down several times.  

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 3:03 PM

WNels,

Funny you'd mention Kearns.  I was wondering the same thing.  Do you take a flyer on him and see what happens?  He's the type of guy that would be of interest I would think.  Needs to re-establish himself so looking for an opportunity.  Might be able to get him for a minor league contract and bring him to Bradenton.  Still relatively young.

InZiskWeTrust wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 3:06 PM

21sthebest,

I believe that Jones didn't hit with RISP simply because a pitcher would be an idiot to give him anything near the strike zone.

Would you rather pitch to someone that (for most of his time up) was hitting over .300 and knocking the cover off the ball or someone batting .230 (Doumit) that had grounded in the most DPs on the team. Or maybe you'd face LaRoche and his warning track power instead?

Jones needs to be in the 3 slot, but he needs someone that a pitcher really doesn't want to have to face with 2 men on (assuming they were still pitching around Legend). This year, they loaded the bases to get to Doumit instead of facing Jones.

JAL wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 3:11 PM

Kearns has a club option and who knows what the Nats will do with that.

21sthebest wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 3:17 PM

"I believe that Jones didn't hit with RISP simply because a pitcher would be an idiot to give him anything near the strike zone."

Zisk,

Jones' hitting zone is so large that I don't buy that as a valid reason.  I've seen him handle tough pitches that are strikes and hit the ball hard the other way.  I know he can do it.  He just needs to do it with runners in scoring position and stop trying to knock the ball out of the park.

And although his RISP is .152, his OBP with RISP is .306 so he's willing to take a walk.  So from what I've seen by watching him, he's getting good pitches with RISP and not handling them well often up.  Hopefully he'll improve with experience.

jersey joe wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 3:19 PM

DMAC, thanks for the reminder.

Thanks also for the kind words

BE THERE OR BE SQUARE

The Deacon wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 3:25 PM

"True on the ABs but with his age and injury history that would not be a sure thing.  I think if the Pirates go after a power hitter they would be better off going for someone with a better track record.  Branyan has been traded, released, sent down several times.  "

I'm not sure Blalock has much better injury/track record.

There's also Mike Cameron who can hit around 25 home runs and play very good OF defense.  The only downside with him is the age.  But he hasn't really declined too much yet in ability, so for a short-term solution he might not be bad.  Probably rather have Ankiel, but not a bad backup plan.

coachrv30 wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 3:44 PM

If I've said it once, I'll say it again, I wish the Pirates could get Josh Willingham or someone of his caliber. He would add some power, additional defense, experience, and serve as an excellent type of player, maturity-wise, who would add some leadership to the current Pirate lineup. Most importantly, he is not an over-the-hill player.

MarkInDallas wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 4:04 PM

WNels89 said...

If Pedro is the best 3rd baseman in spring training, he ought be with the club on opening day.  Pirates did the same with Cutch.

===========================================

I think it's pretty obvious that McCutchen would have been at least one of the top 3 outfielders coming out of spring training, even if he had performed a little worse than what he did.

SO the answer is no, the Pirates did not do that with Cutch.

The Pirates weren't thinking "Oh, as long as Cutch is better than Brandon Moss or Nyjer Morgan, he should be out there starting from day 1."

Nor should they have been thinking that way.

They were thinking, "We have this special talent that we want to be part of the club for a long time, and starting him off by dominating AAA is going to give him a lot of confidence, plus - we'll get an extra year of his production to decide whether he is worth risking the financial health of the organization on him 5 years from now."

It's hard to plan for your future when you are just thinking about where your next meal is going to come from, but that's what makes you rich.

MarkInDallas wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 4:09 PM

PressKyle -

I also think Duke probably will be traded. Capps maybe, but Doumit probably not.

Jaramillo and Diaz are really not good options as every day catchers. They are OK as backups, but not for a whole season.

coachrv30 wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 4:15 PM

DK,

Thanks for the great coverage this year. Hope you have a great time, and meaningful experience this winter. I'll be looking for your return.

Members of the Asylum - - Have a great winter until Russell-mania begins once more.

JosePagan wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 4:26 PM

@ Mark: I beg to differ, re: Jaramillo/Diaz. I think as a tandem they workl perfectly well. I know Jaramillo is not the greatest hitter, but I think he calls a better game and is better defensively. Diaz is a decent backup with a good bat.

With catching being at a premium, now might actually be a good time to trade Doumit, despite the season he has had. I would not be surprised to see Maholm go, but am not so sure about Capps. I tend to agree with DK on the issue of closers - it seems everyone is absolutely delusional about anyone who is any team's closer. Capps may actually have more value than we might think.

Jose

3

Why Didn't I get to see Roberto? wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 4:35 PM

Capps may actually have more value than we might think.

================================

Jose

We can only hope that Neal does the tricking this time

JosePagan wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 4:39 PM

@ Why: Well, this amatuer eye was impressed by Hanrahan - nothing to lose as far as I am concerned if Capps goes. Plenty of reclamation projects on the 40-man to keep 5 Joe Kerrigans busy...

Jose

4

MarkInDallas wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 5:19 PM

JosePagan -

I think Maholm will stick around longer than Duke. He's under contract longer, and also the underlying metrics point to Maholm being a better pitcher than Duke. Many people are just waiting for Duke to have a rough season after his FIP this year was way higher than his ERA.

Plus, if Ronny Cedeno is our SS next year, look out. Duke's ERA will be much higher I guarantee it.

On Jaramillo, for my eyes, Doumit is much better at blocking the plate on balls in the dirt and also at plays at the plate. On that last point, it's not even close. Doumit saved runs multiple times with his ability to block runners, and Jaramillo allowed runners to score that could have been prevented. Doumit has an issue with framing the low pitch sometimes, and that costs him and the pitcher.

Jaramillo had an OPS+ of 81 this year. Doumit has a lifetime OPS+ of 105, and last year was 128. Even this year, which was so bad for him, Doumit had an OPS+ of 91 - still a lot better than Jaramillo.

Simply put, that means that Doumit is a better than average hitter, whereas Jaramillo is a much worse than average hitter.

If the Pirates are going to turn it around, they need more hitters over 100, and can only afford maybe one hitter with OPS+ in the 80's in the entire lineup. That right now would be Ronny Cedeno, with 87.

If you looked at the comparison of the Cardinals lineup with the Pirates that I posted, you'll see the Cardinals have 1 player in the 80's, 5 players right around 100 (meaning average hitters), and 2 players over 160.

The Pirates have no one over 160 or who we can even imagine might hit over 160, except Jones (149 this year), and although I believe he will be very good next year, I don't expect him to better his hitting from this year.

This means the Pirates have to load up on guys who hit 110-130 OPS+. I would say we need 5 guys who can average 125 between them.

RIght now, the only Pirates that have shown they can do that are Cutch, Jones and Doumit.

I have a good feeling that Milledge and LaRoche will be at least around 100.

Alvarez should be one of the guys around 130. If he does, that means of the 8 position players, we'd have 4 plus guys, 2 average guys, 1 minus guy, and 1 guy TBA.

If that TBA is a plus guy in right field, then we've found our 5 plus guys. Yeah! we can win!

But if you switch out a plus guy (Doumit) for a minus guy (Jaramillo), then either BOTH Milledge and LaRoche have to turn into plus guys, so that we have 6 plus guys, 0 average guys and 2 minus guys, OR the Pirates will not be able to compete with a lineup like the Cardinals.

In my mind, I don't see how the Pirates can get along without Doumit until Tony Sanchez comes along. He is projected to be at least an average MLB bat, and that would solve the problem of turning a plus into a minus.

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 5:19 PM

Someone has to talk me down but, honestly, if the pitching continues to progress as it did at the end of the season and the team does find an additional bat via trade or FA then I feel this club can be very competitive and flirt with a .500 record.  

I'm basing that on a healthy Doumit and a full season of McCutchen, Milledge and Jones.  If we add a slugger at any of the four corners we will be drastically better offensively.

Who's with me?!??

MarkInDallas wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 5:22 PM

BTW, on Robinzon Diaz, this year he was a OPS+ 79. Although he hit for some average, he was almost exclusively a singles hitter.

leadoff wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 5:30 PM

Better

Someone has to talk me down but, honestly, if the pitching continues to progress as it did at the end of the season and the team does find an additional bat via trade or FA then I feel this club can be very competitive and flirt with a .500 record.  

I'm basing that on a healthy Doumit and a full season of McCutchen, Milledge and Jones.  If we add a slugger at any of the four corners we will be drastically better offensively.

Who's with me?!??

_____________________________

Been saying the same thing for weeks, so I guess you are with me!

Been saying Uggla so often, I think people are tired of me saying it. Need a 2nd basemen, need power,  there is one out there with 30 hrs. a year the last 3 years. Marlins want to dump him.

We will have him at least 2 years.

Spend a little money, trade a couple of prospects, that is one of the reasons we loaded up on prospects. We don't need them all. We have another year of high end draft picks we can load up on.

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 5:39 PM

leadoff,

Yes, you've been consistent.  Count me in.  Can you imagine what the Burgh would be like if this team would start winning?

I would be very tempted to grab as many bats as possible in this draft.  Now that they've loaded up on pitching via draft and trade, it's time to address the offense and develop some quality hitters.  The "plan" is taking shape and they're really not that far away, not from winning divisions, but from fielding a compettitive team that can generate some excitement.

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 5:51 PM

3-0 Tigers in the top of the third.  Cabrera just went deep.

MarkInDallas wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 5:59 PM

BetterDays -

I'm with you for sure. The question is going to be who we might get to be that right field power guy.

I've got a pretty good understanding of all our position players and what a solid season from them would look like. If we can add someone who performs well, then the season could turn out very well.

Any free agent for right field, with the exception of someone like Marlon Byrd, is going to be a risk. They are going to be coming off poor years, like Ankiel, and trying to prove themselves.

I think Byrd is someone the FO could shell out the PIrate tax for and still have it be within an acceptable internal valuation.

The reason is that he doesn't have overwhelming power, or any one skill that is exceptionally better than anyone else. What he does have is a mix of all skills that he does slightly above average.

For my mind, that is EXACTLY the kind of player the Pirates need to look at.

JHadar wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 6:03 PM

How next year's team can pick up twenty games without trading or FA's.

Let Hanrahan close instead of Capps +6

Jones all year long +2

Snell is gone +4

Andy continues to hit with power +4

Identify a fifth starter after Ohly, Duke, Morton, and Maholm) +4

JR learns to stop leaving pitchers in who have nothing for the night +4

McCutcheon year 2 improvement +3

Alvarez at mid-season  +3

Tabata over Moss +4

Healthy Doumit +2

+36 so far

Cedeno instead of Jack -2

Young instead of Freddy -4

Jaramillo on the bench too long -2

Moss vs Hinske 0

Pearce vs Monroe +1

Vazquez vs Vazquez 0

Cruz until Andy goes to 2b and Young to UT  -1

Allowance for mistakes and overlaps -8

20 games without changing a thing.  Admittedly an improbable scenario, very rarely do things go the way they should, and management and spring training will no doubt juggle the lineup, but it doesn't seem all that impossible either.

leadoff wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 6:10 PM

JH

How next year's team can pick up twenty games without trading or FA's.

_________________________

Still have holes in the batting order, 2 hitters in the 2-6 lineup.

Jones and Milledge 2-6, not much else unless Andy does get better and there are indications that is going to happen, if he does, we go 3 hitters 2-6, still leaves us 3 holes in the batting order, that is not counting the 9 hitter.

leadoff wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 6:12 PM

Mark

The reason is that he doesn't have overwhelming power, or any one skill that is exceptionally better than anyone else. What he does have is a mix of all skills that he does slightly above average.

___________________

IMO we have a whole bunch of those guys, we need power, pure power, 1 power stick too go with what we have would help, 2 power sticks to go with what we have puts us over the top as a very good offensive team.

wozzle wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 6:30 PM

@ our illustrious PBP "announcer", DMac - thanks a bunch.

@ DK - thanks a bunch also, you always - even for the Sano disappointment - cover the bases.

@ leadoff and JHadar - lots of young guys improve from experience, especially during their initiation.  I believe that a degree of optimism is in order, especially for the pitching staff but also for Laroche, Jones, McCutchen and Young. And Milledge is off my meter - he was a steal, and I want him in a Bucs' uni for a long, long time.

It would hurt to see 2B played by Young - I'd rather see PBC go after Felipe Lopez than Uggla - but I don't want to see aging, injury-prone and settled-in-their-ways vets brought in to pollute the clubhouse, WAY too much of that nonsense happened in the past.  I hope Doumit recovers his stroke, but I'm not expecting it.  

I really, really pray that the scouting system is improved, the club needs accurate info to get back into the thick of the NL Central, much less the playoff picture.

JHadar wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 6:31 PM

Leadoff -- That was somewhat tongue in cheek, but assuming that Tabata is on the opening day roster and Young is over the late season exhaustion brought about by his overwork in learning to field and Doumit's power and eye return (a lot to assume, yes?)  Then the opening day lineup looks like:  McCutcheon, Millidge, LaRoche, Jones, Doumit, Young, Tabata, Cedeno.  Of course, if Tabata starts hitting for average you move him up to second and stick Milledge behind Doumit.  In the ideal fantasy Tabata proves to be the ideal leadoff hitter and you can drop McCutcheon into the three hole.

After Pedro comes up and LaRoche goes to 2nd, then it looks like McCutcheon, Millidege, LaRoche, Alvarez, Jones, Doumit, Tabata, Cedeno.

My point wasn't really that those guys would produce the ideal prototypical batting order, but that there were a lot of losses this year that could have been avoided.  I could have put a +4 in there for "abandon no triples defense."  It seems to me that we have raw talent that will get better -- a lot of folks here seem to think that what you see in the first year or two of a player's career is all you'll ever see.

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 6:32 PM

Mark,

I'm more in line with leadoff in that I want a pure thumper.  I like Byrd and he's been a nice addition for the Rangers.  I'd like him in the Bucs lineup if he was hitting on either side of Alvarez.  Maybe that would be the plan if they do indeed look at him.  

I'm talking about an Adam Dunn kind of guy.  

MrB wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 6:56 PM

Thundercrack - I guess NH underrated LHRs to the point that he could trade all of them. However, now he would like to obtain some.

It's this, Sano, the handling of Wilson and Sanchez, etc. that convinces me that he is a raw rookie at his job and must improve dramatically in all phases for the PBC.

sludgeworm wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 7:07 PM

Bizarro Dejan covering the Curling Medal round? Dali? The Crazy Schmit Syndrome? Chuck E take me back to the Burg 9...please...

leadoff wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 7:09 PM

JH

It seems to me that we have raw talent that will get better -- a lot of folks here seem to think that what you see in the first year or two of a player's career is all you'll ever see.

__________________________

I agree with on the raw talent on this team, I think players like Andy LaRoach, Milledge and Moss could grow a bit more, even McCutchen. After that, there are 5 or 6 pitchers that I like to grow some more.

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 7:12 PM

The one question I have is:

Can Michael Phelps Bobsled?

leadoff wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 7:37 PM

Oh the value of a thumper, as the Twins what Cabrera means to them right now.

Arriba Wilver wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 7:40 PM

MbB--i'm with you, buddy, 100% on Neal.  I would add (and no, I don't want to rehash the Bay trade) that after trading Bay last year he said one of his 2 his offseason goals was a right handed power hitting outfielder (Duh) and after trading Grabow he wants, well, Grabow.  He may be a genius, but he has a long way to go as an MLB GM.  He seems to understand stats and computers, but he seems to be lacking in understanding people as well as other areas.  The jury's still out on his player evaluation skills.

I want to add my thanks to DK for the always outstanding coverage and dedication.  And I would like to apologize for my and others overly snippy comments at times in response to your coverage or comments (and that includes both posters who think the FO and ownership are the devil incarnate, the ones who think every move the FO makes is brilliant and all in between.)  As long as you are getting criticized by both extremes, you have to figure you're getting it about right.

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 7:48 PM

FYi.. would LOVE for Cabrera to a pirate, always a vastly underrated game.

JAL wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 7:48 PM

Tiger and Twins playing a good one--4-4 in 8th Orlando Cabrerra put Twins up 4-3 with 2 run HR in bottom 7th then Ordonez hit solo HR in 8th to tie it.

joerevs300 wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 7:55 PM

@JHadar:

" It seems to me that we have raw talent that will get better -- a lot of folks here seem to think that what you see in the first year or two of a player's career is all you'll ever see."

I don't believe that necessarily...but what I DO believe is the Pirates will then either trade these players for more prospects or not pay them what their market value is.

If they do that this time, that might be a fatal mistake.  How do you explain to your fan base all the trades of the last 2 years, when you won't sign the prospects that turn into stars?

JAL wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 7:59 PM

joe R

The only prospect who became a star that I can think of since Bonds is Ramirez  and he not big star.  

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 8:05 PM

joe,

Let' wait and see what this FO does when the prospects are stars.  Until that time there's really nothing to discuss.  it's only speculation, right?

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 8:06 PM

Ordonez worth every penny right now.  He was awful earlier in the season, and was benched, but they played him and his vested option for 2010.

joerevs300 wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 8:06 PM

Wow...JAL I obviously respect the contributions you've made to this forum but are you saying that a guy who has:

- 26 or more HR per season until this one, when he was injured

- 100 or more RBI's 5 of 6 seasons

- over a .300 BA

- 5 out of 6 season an OPS of .890 or higher.

How is THAT not a star?  Honestly?  

Did the Pirates have ANYONE perform at that level?  Outside of Jason Bay?  Were the Pirates better off without him?

Think about having McClouth, Bay, Nady and Ramirez last season.  The difference having Ramirez in the middle of the lineup would be immeasurable.

There are plenty of other examples of players the Pirates let go only to see them blossom into stars.

My point is...if Tabata, Alvarez, etc. come up, become stars and then the Pirates don't pay them, it's a PR disaster that will likely be the final one.

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 8:10 PM

Xaxier Nady part II next year?

JAL wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 8:17 PM

JoeR

I meant Ramirez is a star--just not talked about like some of the big ones  what media calls a super-star.  He would be great in the middle of the line-up, so would Bay .

McLouth is a nice solid player   Nady may have had his career year with the Pirates but he was not a prospect.  

I agree that if they keep trading everyone who develops it will be a PR disaster.  On that we will have to see.  

MarkInDallas wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 8:19 PM

leadoff and BetterDays -

A big thumper like you are talking about is practically impossible for the Pirates to acquire through free agency, UNLESS that player has such defensive liabilities that the Pirates wouldn't want him.

Adam Dunn is the perfect example of someone the Pirates should NOT get. Sure, he is worth 35 batting runs over replacement. But his defense is so bad he costs you 35 runs defensively as well!

Adjusted for defensive importance, this means Dunn is only worth +1.2 Wins above replacement player. Since Brandon Moss this year was worth +.3 (because of his defense), that means spending $10M/year on Dunn doesn't even improve your win total more than ONE!

Marlon Byrd, on the other hand, is as good as Moss is in right field defensively AND he's a consistent OPS+ 110-120 hitter. He's been worth 2.5 and 3.5 WAR each of the last 3 seasons.

In practical terms, that is equal to Jason Bay. Bay is a better hitter, but also a poor fielder. Bay is also about a 3.0 - 3.5 WAR player.

In free agency, the Pirates are faced with paying a premium because they have a recent tradition of being losers. If the Cardinals offer Matt Holliday the same money as the Pirates do, where is he going to go? How much MORE money would it take for the Pirates to sign him over a team like that? Obviously, a substantial amount.

The lesson of "Moneyball" is that you have to identify areas that are undervalued in the market, and THAT's where you spend your premium, because a smaller premium is going to make a bigger difference for a player like Byrd than a player like Holliday.

Right now, power hitting is the most valued aspect of the game, whereas outfield defense is the most undervalued.

Never the less, they BOTH are necessary for winning baseball games, which is the actual point of signing the player.

Your "thumpers" will be Alvarez and Jones. If both of those guys are 35HR players like they should be, and you have four or five 15-25 HR guys around them who are high OBP bats, that is definitely enough offense to produce the runs you need.

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 8:20 PM

Stan,

Maybe....just maybe....

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 8:20 PM

Stan,

Maybe....just maybe....

Baywatch wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 8:23 PM

I see Don Kelly, one of Tracy's old Pirate projects, is on the Tigers' bench. It would be interesting if they play extra innings and he winds up with the game-winning hit.

MarkInDallas wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 8:27 PM

WhyStan -

I think Nady is projected to be out most of the year next year as well. If he comes back at all it would be late in the year.

leadoff wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 8:27 PM

Mark

A big thumper like you are talking about is practically impossible for the Pirates to acquire through free agency, UNLESS that player has such defensive liabilities that the Pirates wouldn't want him.

_______________________

IMO FA is not the way to go, I want the Bucs to trade for talent for the major league team.

I do not believe that all the prospects we acquired through trades and the draft are ear marked for the major league team. Some are trade bait.

When the Pirates have truly arrived, they will be trading some of their prospects for major league talent, not trading major league talent for prospects.

If they are going to find power and they can acquire power through trades they have to start doing it.

Nothing has hurt this team more this year than lack of punch.

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 8:32 PM

Mark,

We had covered earlier the possibility of acquiring via FA or trade that big bat.  

I used Dunn as an example of a guy who has true power.  He'll strike out a lot and the average may suffer but he just hammers three run dimgers all day.  There are better examples I'm sure but that's my thought process.

Dejan Kovacevic wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 8:34 PM

This is a spectacular baseball game.

leadoff wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 8:36 PM

I often wonder how much better Jones would have been with a big bat behind him, when things get so bad that you put anyone behind Jones you know there is a problem.

JAL wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 8:38 PM

Extra game  extra innings  great play by Inge at 3rd probably saved the Tigers.

JAL wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 8:39 PM

dejan

We can only hope the Pirates can be such a game sometime in our lives:)

jersey joe wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 8:40 PM

I think the talk about the catcher is mostly to hold off until Sanchez is proving he can hit in the big league.

May see him in double A next year since they say he is major league ready behind the plate.

Now that we know what a few of us were saying and Jose will prove it using the archives is that paul had the ball but aches kept him from standing tall.

Throw that in wioth Marks thoughts and I think he does stay longer when we see him bounce back next year.

I also like WSB idea of trading for that allstar second

baseman.  +

leadoff wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 8:42 PM

Both these teams pulling out all the stops, one still has to play the Yanks tomorrow, don't know if they will have much left for them.

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 8:43 PM

Bay- ask and you shall receive..

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 8:47 PM

@JAL- I think you'd know this.  Is this the regular season roster for the Tigers and Twins (w/ Sept callups), or do they have to submit a roster?

Tigers Rooney to attempt to pitch the 10th.

leadoff wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 8:49 PM

Had to be an a former Pirate score the go ahead run for Leyland, he figured the Bucs owed him one after Bream beat us.

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Morning links: Off to ... Vancouver?
on Tue, Oct 6 2009 8:49 PM

The Metrodome cannot end like this.. NOOOOOOOO!!