Morning links: The Sano saga

As posters in the other threads pointed out, a record setting or tying deal of around $4.25 million earlier on probably would have gotten the job done.  It's not like the Bucs don't have the dough after the $20 million plus major league payroll they cut.

But let's look on the bright side.  At least we have Kevin Hart!

And Luis Cruz!

Dejan...just a heads up in the game story...about half way through. You have Hart dropping a throw from Steven Pearce...who didn't appear in the game. Gotta be Jones.

Its amazing to me that NH doesnt know how to "play the game" yet in negotiating with agents....What I mean by that is you dont alienate the agent of the player you are trying to sign...We all know how much influence these agents (i.e. Boras) have over the client....You would have thought that FC would have given NH lessons in how to be the smooth-talking lawyer type so as to "befriend" the agent - to let the agent think they are in control but at the same time, the team is really doing the controlling through gaining the trust of the agent......I realize that NH wants to sign players at the lowest possible amount but when so many resources have been put into the Sano recruitment, one would think that the money wouldnt be so much as a concern as it apparently was...So what if NH thought that Plummer was bluffing about other teams being involved - play the game  - increase the offer - but never. ever introduce dialogue in which you put the agent on the defensive and thus determines that he doesnt want to deal with you anymore (hence not calling NH back after the Twins  stepped up with an offer.)  To further gauge Plummer's anger towards the Bucs - he potentially left a higher contract on the table by not giving the Pirates a chance to beat the Twins offer and how often does that happen in a sport where the almighty dollar rules the roost........

I now believe that NH isnt capable of being in charge of any team in MLB after he totally botched what was supposed to be the Pirates splash into Central America...

For starters, toss Huntington out on his behind already, so I can end my exile.

Then -and this may seem flippant, but I am deadly serious- put Dejan in charge of the team. Think about it: he's got people skills that run circles around Opie's. Unlike Opie, Dejan clearly had a rapport with Plummer (the latter, admittedly a schm_ck). Likewise, he knows how to talk with -not at- the players. Okay, so a smidgen of this is compromised once he becomes "management." Doesn't have to be much, though. All the Steelers love the Rooneys and the Steelers' FO. Just retain a negotiator, like Omar Khan, for the brass tacks stuff.

Dejan for GM!

Great insights into this process, Dejan. I must say this was the disappointing icing on my mostly lousy Bucco night. I live in Chicago and watched that abysmal game. I'm glad you focused on the sloppy defense, because that 's certainly what frustrated me the most. Hart's struggles seem to be spiraling out of control and I'm sure the lack of confidence in his "D" didn't help. Has Kerrigan talked much about Hart's struggles, by the way? Does he have any insight. He was pitching great in Chicago before the trade.

As a side note, I stayed after the game to catch a glimpse of the Buccos getting onto their bus. Brandon Moss actually walked out of the regular gates and nobody seemed to notice at all. I was able to meet Andrew McCutchen and get his autograph. He was very nice to the fans. Most of the rest of the team was sour-faced and avoided the small crowd that had assembled. I guess I don't much blame them after that effort.

I think the bumbling nature of the front office, or appearance of bumbling, has been well established. But this Plummer fella gives the impression that he put himself through law school working as a pimp. The whole story makes me wanna reach for the Lysol.

The Pirates brass blew this one - as spectacularly as a Matt Capps 3 run blown save.

That said, hopefully they can recover and put the hubris aside for the next one. All GMs make mistakes, and sometimes spectacular ones such as this one.

@Sarcastic Sword - Opie handled negotiations with Boras and Boras even said he had a good relationship with Opie. Boras and FC hate each other. Plummer was mad at Gayo and the Pirates would have bid against themselves because the Twins did not offer anything until recently. Looking at the coverage from DK, Plummer is an idiot and a poor agent.

Will Sano make it to the ML? No clue. I have never seen him play. Although, none of the big money teams made an offer for this kid, so, there might be something there. Also, I have not heard anythig about his age being cleared up by immigration. They may determine he is older and then he is barred from the country.

BTW, this was excellent coverage, DK. Thanks a bunch.

I second that nomination JL.  Omar is legendary and incredibly respected by agents including some of the biggest and brightest.  

Dejan does it sadden you that users do not read what you write and blindly bash the FO. Plummer became paranoid and the bucs put their heart into getting the kid. And somehow commenters spin it as not knowing how to play the game. This just is sad, no other way to describe it. Real tragedy is Sano just wanted to sign with the Bucs, and Plummer stopped him from doing so.

Please do not compare the sports. You can't compare a sport with a salary cap to a sport without a cap.

Remember that before a salary cap, the Rooney's were considered cheap by the players. They were well liked, but they were cheap.

I think more of the info you present here needs to find its way into the coverage in the print version

The real tragedy is once again FO politics and such pushed SANO to the twinkies for a fairly reasonable amount of cash, although now that stays in the FO pockets

So when Gayo is called by Sano's mother and Sano cries that he wants to sign with Pittsburgh, and his agent doesn't listen, that is the FO pushing him away. You must be illiterate.

@aso513............Plummer works for Sano...Not the other way around....If Sano wanted to sign with the Bucs after the first offer, he would have told Plummer to accept....Im sure after some time, Plummer probably relayed to Sano how the Pirates FO was treating the negotiations and maybe the kid decided he didnt want to play for a team that was calling his agent a liar.......

my suggestion is that the FO need some 'winter ball' of their own- start by attending local flea markets and yard sales- learn to bargain and negotiate. maybe visit a foreign country and up the ante negotiating in foreign currency buying beads and non-bobblehead wooden figurines.

How do you spin that Sarcastic, the kid said I want to sign can you read? And Plummer said be patient. I bet Gayo has been at the Sano house in the last three days because he loves the kid. And no agents ultimately work for themselves, see Pedro accepting the bucs offer by stealing the phone from Boras last year, only to have Boras file the grievance. Sad thing is if Boras were Sano's agent, he'd be a Pirate, because Boras gets top dollar over anything else. He isn't a paranoid baby.

Sano didn't want to sign with the Pirates he wanted to sign period.  It was my job to make sure he got what he was worth.  I needed to have the investigation with the age finish and then make sure he could get a visa before I started the negotiations.  I told every team to hold off on offers until all of this worked it's way to a conclusion.  The only team that kept pushing and talking to the family were the Pirates.  Every other team abided by what I was trying to do.  There are some things that you the public will never know about what happened.  The family trusted me and wanted to wait as well, but were told that only they would offer and that his price would go down.  I asked them againt to not contact the family and they did not heed this advice.  There are teams including the Twins that have known Sano and his family for longer then the Pirates.  Gayo met Sano only this past spring.  Fred Guerrero of the Twins and many other teams have relationships with Miguel dating back to the middle of last year and even when he was 14 years old like the Texas Rangers.  There were many many teams in this process and more than just the Pirates were upset at the outcome.  I just felt that the Twins really waited patiently and then were the ONLY team to step forward at the end with what we wanted.  Miguel, his mother and his coach at all phases were in agreement with me.  I work for him not vice versa.  I am not the scum bag you guys make me out to be.  The reason Miguel is not a Pirate has much less to with Neal as it has to do with the contact that was made to Miguel and his family during which I tried to make a dead period for all teams.  I felt that I had to reward the Twins for stepping up and I gave them my word that I would not shop their offer if they stepped up.  

But if this is really Plummer, you gave your word to the bucs that they could match. So, you are a scumbag sorry.

Trying to look at this objectively, it appears the Pirates overstepped their bounds by overtly contacting Sano directly and making offers to him without his agent being present.  Maybe that is how it is done in the Dominican, but I think they should have made all offers exclusively to the agent and not to the mother.  The contact with the family, if at all, should have been strictly on a personal basis to show continued interest in his development as a person and as a player.  It is too bad that a lot of people put in a whole lot of hours with no return on the investment.  

I never gave my word to the Pirates that they could match.  I would never say that to any team.  everyone wanted to wait to see the first big offer.  Only the Twins stepped up.  I could have been here a year waiting for a team to step up if I hadn't promised not to shop an offer of what I thought was ok to sign.

But is Sano's signature on the deal?  Bill Smith says otherwise

www.twincities.com/.../ci_13448378 are very interested in Miguel Sano, and we are pursuing him aggressively, but we do not have a signed deal," Smith said.

Let me preface by saying, I do not truly believe that this is Plummer commenting. Now...

You both look bad in the situation regardless. You have a history of not being liked by big market teams. And as I predicted in another thread, if it really is Plummer commenting, you probably saw a lot of these nut jobs hate the front office no matter what, and by screwing them out of a kid they'd offer more money to than any other team, you give these idiots more venom to spew, thanks.

baseballagentesq/fake plummer/whoever-

You are full of it, dude.  So you're saying it was Gayo's fault for communicating with the family?  Not NH's?

And you're also saying you took the first 'big' offer and promised not to shop it?  Why?  Aren't you supposed to get the most money possible for your client?  Don't you owe that to him?

Get real.  

Good luck to you guys and just know that Neal Huntington has the Pirates headed in the right direction.  Sometimes you need to take s step back to take a big step forward.  Being in the middle just keeps you in the middle.  It doesn't help anyone to go 80-82.  I think in a few years the Pirates will be a winning franchise again.  I'm from Phila and we went 25 years and 100 seasons without winning in any sport.   Goodnight

If Gayo were to show up at Sano's house today and tell him the Bucs were willing to give him 4 mil, does anyone really believe he wouldn't take it?  How can Plummer say flatly the bidding is over, he's happy with the Twin's offer...because we communicated with Sano behind his back he'll take less money?  Who is this guy?  Jerry Maguire?

Sorry for using the "schm..." word, now that you're party to the conversation. (Aso, ask your question but keep your insults to yourself. I particularly resent the way to spoke to Bizrow. What did he ever do to you?)

So AgentEsquire,

Was Gayo acting as a loose cannon, or could Huntington have reeled him in, if he so desired?

Someone needs to give Mr. Plummer the speech about getting an avatar

Wow, the scary thing is I know believe that was Rob Plummer.

LVPF,

Why do you doubt he is who he says he is? You think this is a prank? Do you think someone who writes the way he does would get off wasting his time on such a prank?

you can sit there and sit there and sit there and if everyone wants to beat the highest offer then nobody goes full bore.  If you don't promise not to shop their offer then why would the Twins go to ownership if they think that the Yankees are just going to beat their best offer.  Why would the Yankees make a big offer if they think they have the opportunity to beat any offer.  So what happens in that situation is you don't get any offers.  I think one of the problems is that Gayo wanted to sign Sano too much.  At one point he even told me that he loved Miguel Sano.  It's like when you like a girl too much and call her too much.  it pushes the girl away.  Everyone needs some space.  This signing was a joint decision: The coach, Miguel, him mom, step mom and myself.  I regret how it ended and I owe Neal a big apology b/c he's doing a good job.  The Pirates are headed in the right direction for sure.  I just felt like nobody was going to step forward b/c nobody believed a team like the Twins were going to step forward so that really slowed negotiations.  When everything with the investigation was finished the Twins were ready.  

The FO screwed the pooch.  Sorry aso513, but it's that simple.  Also, I'm not an idiot...

They tried to strong arm a deal, at below market, and certainly before any bargaining momentum could be gained by the player.  Not a bad idea in theory, but they seem to have a knack for overstepping their bounds.

I can't stand agents, but I have no problem with Plummer going with the Twins and not checking back with the Pirates.  It's their doing.  I'm certain he'd rather make more money, but sometimes it's not all about the money.

This is on NH.  Gayo making an official offer isn't something he could do all on his own, without approval.  NH, and probably a lot more, knew what they were trying to do.  I actually find it somewhat refreshing, that an agent appears to have chosen principle (however screwed up) over the potential for a few more $.

Looks like the PBC will have to overpay the next time they want to sign an elite Latin American talent.

JL...now I'm not so sure.

And his remarks really tick me off.  The fact the Gayo continued to communicate with Miguel during a dead period is the reason he's not a Pirate?  He gave the Twins his word he'd not shop the offer?  What about him telling NH he'd let him know when the negotiations would begin?  The Pirates may have 'stepped up', as he put it, if we were aware there was another offer.

By the way, how have you been JL?  You still out here?

Sounds like you're bending over backwards a little too far to mend fences with Huntington. Dejan quoted you today -something to the effect that Huntington was convinced there were no other suitors, and that this miscalculation is what cost him. I tend to still go by this initial explanation. But what say you, Esq.?

Anyway, I have a 13 year old for 2012 that is even better than Sano.  Just know that being an agent isn't easy and neither is being a GM.  Sometimes things happen.  I had to do what I thought was in Miguel's best interests under the circumstances.  I placed him with a good team and made him a 16 year old millionaire.  He's so happy to be signed and he's a great kid.  I hope that I didn't torch the bridge with the Pirates.  I have to go to sleep.  Night.

Thanks, LV. Yes, slow as things are, I'm still here. Hope all is well with you too.

Well, good questions. The man, himself is in the house. Maybe he'll address your questions???

Mr. Plummer, does this whole saga stop you from doing business with the Pirates in the future? If it does, is Gayo the main problem?

Ok now I'm really confused....is this Plummer or not?  If it is...he's really weird - with the whole liking a girl too much and calling her too much thing.  What the...?

Outstanding work, DK!

I haven't been that engrossed in something about the Pirates since Alvarez last year.

I guess that says a lot about where the Pirates are.  Hopefully soon the most intriguing content about them will be occurring on the field.

GoBucs,

Thanks!  really how can Sano be upset?  He just broke the record for an international position player signing and he's with a good team.  I came into this wanting the most money and saying that money would be the number 1 thing.  Maybe I didn't get blood from a stone, but I did get him a good deal and one that he and his family are happy about.  

I have no problems with the Pirates and would do business with them again as long as we were on the same page.

I better get to sleep too. Guess I'm not going to get either of my Q's answered. Oh well. I stick by my original assessment. It takes two to tango, and one of those was Huntington. On the Pirates' side, the buck stops with thim and obviously, he didn't handle his end well enough. As for Agent Plummer, you may "work for the player," but clearly in a case like this, you hold most of the cards. It sure seems like you cut the Pirates out of the picture. Did they deserve it? I don't think you convinced anyone of that. Good luck patching up your differences with the Pirates' FO. Though I'm pretty sure you'll survive them. So maybe it doesn't matter.

Okay, I'm returning to my exile.

A lawyer would not be revealing privileged attorney-client communications on a Blog.

Good seeing you JL.  I'm out for the night too.  I shouldn't have swam those 2 miles at the athletic club today.  Either I'm really tired and fooled easily or an agent just posted on our Blog.  Still leaning towards the former, though.

@Reading

After the fact, with what Dejan revealed in the piece, who the heck knows anymore. It's way too confusing for me to try to understand. I think it is Plummer thou.

Pretty bizarre stuff, Gang ... I wouldn't hang my hat on it, although the only thing that, in my mind, gives credence to this really being Plummer is DK quoting Plummer in his 6:35 p.m. thread, announcing what happened ...

""You know, I feel like I was in touch with the Pittsburgh fans on this, from reading the blogs and message boards, and I feel bad for them."

In tenor, sounds like the same guy, and he says he reads the blogs ... still, dropping in on THIS blog to justify his actions seems a might unprofessional and soap-operish for a big-time agent.

We have our share of bizarre folks on here. I definitely wouldn't put it past any of them to try to pose themselves as Plummer ... I mean after that JAL fiasco where one or more were mimicking him.

In the words of John "The Rock" Wehner: "Sckrange indeed!"

Hey guys, based on his username I can tell you that more than likely it IS Plummer posting here.  I've spoken to him in the past and I doubt someone would just randomly pull out that username to pretend to be him.  Either it's him or someone is trying much too hard.

Plummer post on MLBTradeRumors.com as liquid1023 or something like that. And also post on Orioles blogs when Sano is brought up. So, not the same name but the guy does go onto message boards and gives some insight. Dejan, can you confirm or deny if it is infact Plummer? The only skeptical thing is the part about the 13 yr. old. Why would he say he is better than Sano?

I don't think I should post what it is here, but there's a definite link between the username he's using here and Plummer.  I can tell you that for sure.

Now that the lawyer/agent doesn't seem to be around, I'm free to answer whatever medical questions you all might have...

Plummer if you read this, please post at OnlyBucs.net under your user name and further explain the situation if you have the chance. It is one of the best sites for knowledgeable Pirate fans, and a post would be great to read.

Ok, couldnt sleep and i just read the plummer-if-that's-your-real-name posts.  despite plummer's history of posting on blogs in the past, i'm betting no, this is not him.  reason: fake-plummer hung his argument on not being willing to shop the Twins' offer.  he posted several times that he would not shop the Twins offer.  Here's one of his quotes from earlier: "I could have been here a year waiting for a team to step up if I hadn't promised not to shop an offer of what I thought was ok to sign."

conversely, i qoute from Dejan: "Plummer took the time to call all of the other teams in the Sano bidding yesterday, but not the Pirates." so how could he, as fake-plummer asserts, honor the pledge to the Twins not to shop their offer and then shop the offer to every team BUT the Pirates?

Clearly, one of these guys, fake-plummer or Dejan, is wrong about the pledge and the calls.  you can tell by my  "fake" designation where my opinion lies.  And since it's 4AM and bleary-eyed readers may miss the nuance, let me write it directly: I believe Dejan is correct that calls were made to all teams BUT the Ps.  I believe this guy posting has a clever ruse going but tripped up over this point by saying he had an agreement with the Twins to NOT do what Dejan wrotes that Plummer did.

One more thin...Dejan never wrote that Plummer AGREED to call back the Pirates if he received an acceptable.  He wrote that Neal ASKED him to do so but did not comment on Plummer's reaction to the request.  (And knowing how the relationship had deteriorated between Plummer and PBC, why in heaven's name would Plummer agree to that favor?)

Whatever we may think of the agent, it's not double-dealing to not honor a request that you NEVER agreed to.  Here's Dejan's quote on that matter: "About three weeks ago, these two had one last conversation, in which a very much exasperated Huntington simply asked Plummer to call him once he was ready to negotiate. And, in the final sign of the bitterness between these parties, that call never came."

so he simply asked Plummer to call him.  Nothing about Plummer agreeing to honor the request.

One can argue the merits of the agent in calling the other teams but not PBC who might have bid higher.  But to accuse him of being a lollipop sucking tea bag (i cleaned it up) based on an agreement that he may never have made is a bit unfair.

i know, i know, who said fairness has anything to do with blogging.

well, just like my married life, i seem to be talking to just myself...so i'm going to try to put myself back to sleep.

So much for a dead, dull end to this season......

From the previous thread:

I just do not believe there is a player on the team who can respect Ryan for his and it is DOGGING it.I do not care if he is mother theresa incarnate he dogs it.  Over and over and over.

DMac wrote re:

JJ...Unless you have an insider's ear into the clubhouse, don't force your views of Ryan onto the other players.  You think he's dogging it, fine.  But don't project -- no one here, except Dejan, knows exactly how those players feel or what they think.

DMAC, first off, I think I nowheres projected anything.  Read my words carefully and you will see if you want to read anything beyond what I wrote it was a belief that any player watching him dog his way down the line says anything other than what a dog to himself unless he is in fact a dog also.

I have watched this game for 50 years.  I played it up to and including in the Army.  I have taught and managed it for more years than I can remember.

if any player watches that lack of effort and it does not put a bad taste in his mouth for that player, he should not be there.

You want to turn a blind eye toi the obvious that anyone watching him sees he jogged down the line and he has done that over and over and call it sweet talk, go ahead, not me.

My experience on the bench for many years is what I did project, I do not need to have an ear in the clubhouse to know that.

                 ANNIVERSARY GATHERING

                   October 24th, noon time

                    Vincents of Greentree

                         Special Guest

                       Mr Frank Coonelly

                     LImited seating available

                     RESERVE YOUR SEAT

                                     to

                       tjfran@comcast.net

                Questions for MR. Coonellly

                 can be submitted by emailling to

                       tjfran@comcast.net

                             No tie req

                    gathering news update

Since the crowd is growing one simple rule of courtesy is in order.

Everyone get the chance for a questioin before anyone asks a second question

Another disappointment in a long list of disappointments - this ownership and management absolutely sucks - it is pitiful.  Huntington had no inside contacts to advise him how to deal with the agent so he blew it.  I never heard of a principaled agent so the money still talks but another bonehead move by the Pirates management that may cost them big.  Just like Russell's pulling Duke out with 1 out left in 9th inning.   I don't care what he says, that was petty and the players will remember that.  Pirates are Pathetic!

All you need to do is go back to DK's initial paragraph:

"It will be hard to assign the blame for why the Pirates did not get this player, because the two sides disliked each other."

When you have two extreme sides, usually the truth is somewhere in the middle.

In the end, however, I think the GENERAL public opinion will be if the Pirates offered $2.6M, and the Twins got him for $3.1M, the Pirates and NH come off looking cheap, and all this on the heels of building the new academy down there...AND Plummer controls 8 of the other 13 prospects down there.

So regardless of who's right or wrong, a critical bridge between Latin American and the Pirates has been burned, and well, once again the Pirates tried to do something right only to get burned.

You can call Plummer a weasel...but at the same time, if he told the Pirates to stop doing an "end around" and get to know his family after Plummer was upset, that was on the Pirates.  

As DK said...blame will be hard to ultimately assign, except in the realm of public opinion (non-Pirates fans).

i think i have read two opinions of what Ryan was doing.

1) 'he was dogging it.'  if so, obviously not good

2) 'he wasnt dogging it...he was so upset by his AB that he was lost in his self-anger as he made his way down the line.' i may not have presented this argument completely accurately...was struggling a bit to understand it.  but let's assume it's true.  if we assume he wasnt dogging it but rather lost in his anger, then frankly that's self-indulgent and selfish.

Either way, the lesson is plain.  RUN.  DON'T JOG.  IT'S YOUR JOB.  if we agree to that, we don't have to get in anyone's head, Ryan's or his teammates.  A manager in this situation can say "i accept that you werent dogging it.  but that's not the point.  RUN.  That's all that matters.  If you don't, unless injured, it really doesn't matter the reason that you didnt."

Morning Links Part 2

Play by Play of a gamw where the Pirates failed to hit, field, or pitch

scores.espn.go.com/.../playbyplay  

Cubs vs. Pirates-Preview of two teams going nowhere this season

www.cbssports.com/.../MLB_20090930_PIT@CHC_2

Garrett Jones: a swinging sensation

www.southtownstar.com/.../1798135,093009sptjones.article

Hi everyone.  I'm a native Pittsburgher living in Los Angeles.  I've been a fan of DK's Pirate beat writing for a couple years now, but, until the bizarre events of this evening, I've only lurked on this board.

"Baseballagentesq," it seems like you really could be Rob Plummer, Sano's agent.  If you are... all I can say is "yikes."  I work in a business (screenwriting) in which everyone uses agents to find them work and negotiate their contracts.  If my representatives ever behaved the way that you have throughout these negotiations, I'd fire them right away.

The first thing I'd say while I was firing you is that you were too emotionally involved in the negotiations.  I would never want my agents speaking publicly about my private negotiations the way you have.  And, if they spoke in the press about trolling message boards and blogs of one of the teams I was considering signing with, I'd just think that's bizarre.  I'd also, on reading your spiteful public comments, wonder why you're using the fact that you represent me to settle what seems to be a personal beef with an executive.  Because, after all, your like, dislike, or "trust" of an executive has nothing to do with my professional interests.

The second thing I'd say to you is that it seems very likely that your emotional involvement in the negotiations kept me from getting the best deal.  And I have to say, I'd be very disinterested in your focus on "process," and in your frustration at the team for screwing up said process.  The bottom line is, there was a team that wanted me, and, for reasons having nothing to do with my professional happiness, never had a chance to negotiate for my services.  How, as my representative, could you possibly allow that to happen?

The last thing I'd say -- and here I'd probably be getting upset with you -- is that it's extremely unsettling to read a message board post that you wrote, claiming in public that another one of your clients is "better than me."   If you are Plummer... wow.  Just wow.  It's hard for me to imagine that an agent could be so foolhardy and, frankly, dumb.

If you're not Plummer, then I guess the joke's on me.  But if you are, then I think you've got bigger problems than whether or not you've just burned a bridge with the Pittsburgh Pirates.  I'd be trying to figure out a way to make sure that my prospective clients and their families could never read about the way I behaved during this negotiation.

THE OFFICIALLY UNOFFICIAL PBC BLOGS AND MLB LINKS: Part 1

Bleacher report-Another Losing Season For The Bucs, Is Their Any End in Sight?

bleacherreport.com/.../263758-another-losing-season-for-the-bucs-is-their-any-end-in-sight

Bucs Dugout--Miguel Sano to Sign with Twins

www.bucsdugout.com/.../miguel-sano-to-sign-with-twins

WhyGavs-Sano Signs With Twins

whygavs.com/.../sano-signs-with-twins.html

Pittsburgh Lumber Company--Sano signs with Twins

mvn.com/.../sano-signs-with-twins.html

Raise the Jolly Roger--Still Away From Home

raisethejollyroger.com/.../still-away-from-home-pirates-0-cubs-6

Raise the Jolly Roger--Miguel Sano Signs With Twins

raisethejollyroger.com/.../miguel-sano-signs-with-twins

Hyzdu Headquarters--So Long Sano

raisethejollyroger.com/.../miguel-sano-signs-with-twins

The Green Weenie--On the Road Again

oldbucs.blogspot.com/.../on-road-again.html

Dicey - welcome aboard!  And at 3:30 AM in LA...i'm impressed.  Allderdice High School?  No matter, Squirrel Hill native or otherwise, you're welcome here.

For reasons i noted above, i think this guys was a fake.  But no matter, many of your other points are valid nonetheless about the agent letting his personal dislike flavor the outcome for his client.

THE OFFICIALLY UNOFFICIAL PBC BLOGS AND MLB LINKS: Part 2

PBC Homepage--Hart has problems against former club

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

PBC Homepage--Morton ready for second shot in twin bill

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

Rumbunter--Pirates Make Brilliant Move

rumbunter.com/.../pirates-make-brilliant-move

MLB Transactions

www.cbssports.com/.../transactions

Bucco fans--Pirates Got a Raw Deal with Sano

www.buccofans.com/.../pirates-got-raw-deal-with-sano.html

Bucco fans--Victor Black a top New York-Penn League Prospect

www.buccofans.com/.../victor-black-top-new-york-penn-league.html

The "Mc" Effect--Screwed Again

eatsleepmlb.mlblogs.com/.../screwed_again.html

North Side Notch--Miguel Sano signs with Twins; Pirates royally screwed

www.northsidenotch.com/.../miguel-sano-signs-with-twins-pirates.html

Fire John Russell

http://firejohnrussell.com/

Good article DK. Interesting stuff.

As for Plummer posting here, no clue, but I thought some of the things baseballagent said about Gayo were funny - the clingy, trying too much, "loved" that kid etc. I watched some news report on Gayo before where they followed him around with cameras etc - I can't remember who the prospect he was courting then was, but I think it was before Sano although I'm not sure - and just my assessment of his personality based on that glimpse of the guy fits perfectly with the things baseballagent said.

Prediction Contest mini u[date

Loos 97 eliminates Demery and Junior Ortiz.  Next loss will eliminate 6, next win will eliminate 1

Shane - see my earlier (4:28 am) post re: fake-plummer.  See the major inconsistency i noted between the poster and what Dejan reported.  Fake-plummer stated he had agreement with Twins not to shop their offer around, then Dejan's report that Plummer shopped the offer around to everyone but PBC.  Very entertaining blogger but imo that's a major inconsistency...i think the poster got the story wrong.  Very interesting but imo  nothing more than an interesting fake.  

You obviously think the poster was not fake.  What's your take on this inconsistency?  Not trying to corner you...just interested in whether there may be a hole in my logic.

Also, Rich Donnelly is pushed out.

Pushed out?  They decided not to renew his contract.

I've read lots of good things about Gayo, but if he can't get along with Plummer then that's going to be a problem. Traditionally, people like Gayo worked directly with players and their families but Plummer, like all agents, wants the communications to go through him. That undercuts Gayo's strength and it will be interesting to see if he adapts.

Between not signing Sano, reaching for Sanchez, and not spending all the money we had allocated to sign players that dropped in the draft, we saved several million dollars. Time to talk to McCutchen about an Evan Longoria style deal?

Looks like over night this turned from a baseball blog into a creative writing class.  Certainly it was not Plummer and the fact that  it is unclear means it violated the rules of commenting.  Such is life on the web.

There seems to be a disconnect here.

On the one hand, we have maybe-Plummer saying the problem was the Pirates not wanting to bid against themselves, which implies that they simply weren't making an acceptable offer.  And I can understand the Twins making their offer contingent on it not being shopped.  That's a major concern for GMs and a major reason they hate dealing with Scott Boras, who not only shops offers but lies about them.

On the other hand, we have these repeated references to Gayo and to Neal getting screwed.  You can't have it both ways.  If it was just the money, Gayo is irrelevant.  And it seems clear that the Pirates wanted to negotiate but Plummer at some point refused to negotiate any further with them.  We'll never know whether they'd have raised their offer above what the Twins offered, but I'm convinced from what we know that Plummer cut the Pirates out from spite.  That being the case, he can't legitimately say he got the best deal for his client. So I have to agree with Allderdice's conclusions.

I never heard of Rob Plummer before yesterday.  And even though I respect Gayo's opinion,  I have never seen Sano play and I try not to get too excited about players that are 16 years old.

As DK wrote, it would be hard to assign blame.  But I will side with the Bucs.  My opinion after reading DK's detailed account is that the Bucs may have made some mistakes but Plummer seems like a control freak.  He seems to have been hell bent that he player would not sign with the Bucs and it may have cost Sano some money.  The Pirates were right with their initial offers and not to get caught in what they perceived as bidding against themselves.  

@Drew

No, don't get me wrong, I have no idea if he's a fake (but that would be my first instinct - that it is a fake) and I didn't have time to read the whole thread before I posted. I was just commenting on that one aspect of what he said about Gayo.

Lets play the Bill Cowher "what if" game.

What if Sano turns 19 and decides that he no longer enjoys baseball since it has become his 'job' and no longer wants to play...or is no longer dedicated to it? This of course happens with $3+ million in his bank account.

1) this could happen whether he sign with the Pirates or not

2) haven't we all know kids that love to play sports and then when they get a little older lose interest...or move on to other things.   The kid is 16 years old.

Aso, don't bother asking people to go to OnlyBucs.  

Or rather, go ahead if you want to, you won't stay long.

And to think I spent the night reading a book. That was way more entertaining than the normal boorish by Joe McCarthy and friends.

Sorry, but my typing (not my grammar) is way off this morning.

I should have typed: Haven't we all known kids that love to play sports.....

sorry, it was bothering me.  Carry on.

Being that DK interacts with this blog when he needs to correct someone or male a point, Im guessing he will weigh in on whether Plummer truly visited overnight...

Seems I've also caught the typo bug. Should have said "boorish crowing".

On an unrelated note. JAL, I find you fascinating. However, remind me to never invite you to a cocktail party.                        

JLP

Your party, your decision but you will miss some great conversation :)

Sorry to see that Sano is not comming here. FWIW, I think that it was Plummer on the board last night. However, guys like him and Huntingdon are dwimmer-crafty in their word choices. It is likely that we are given a turn of phrase to describe each side's story rather than the straight poop.

Personally, I wish NH & company had played it cool and just gone for the jugular with an offer rather than out-negotiating themselves.

In re: Kerrigan. Glad to see he is coming back.

In re: PBC middle infield - need more options at second - send Cedeno to Lourdes...

Jose

1

I'm a little less upset about this than last evening.  My apologizes to NH for ripping him, when he outbid the Orioles. I think the world down in the Dominican is changing and life will see where it takes us.

I'd still like the Pirates to swoop in and pick up the guy the Cardinals released because of a vision test.

At least one negative record the 2009 Pirates will not have--Orioles lost their 12th in row last night--longest losing streak in the majors this season.

It sounds to me that both sides are at fault.  The Pirates shouldn't have attempted to circumvent Sano's agent, and the agent shouldn't have let his personal feelings get in the way of getting Sano his best deal.

Jal- I hope McPhail and NH see the carnage of the "Late season trades" for progress.  The growing pains are brutal.

@ Why: What has not been explained with the Cards' situation is what exactly is wrong with Mateo. Is it correctable? Is it ongoing? Stabilized?

Since the kid is still playing and hitting, it may well be that he could still be signed once an exam is done and the extent of the condition is known.

Could be an opportunity here.

Jose

2

JAL, I don't know how you can so quickly dismiss that the guy was Plummer.  I agree it is so unprecedented that it's almost unbelievable.  But if it was a prank, it was a very well-controlled prank.  There was no baba-booey moment.  No scandalous dirt unveiled to send us down the wrong track.  It was just a very mild post.  And, as Bay pointed out, Dejan quoted him as saying that he reads this blog.

Frankly, if it was him, I think it's brilliant.  More than any other club, the Pirates' negotiations with Sano SHOULD HAVE been influenced by fan perception.  The Twins didn't need to sign Sano for any reason other than baseball.  The Bucs needed to sign Sano for PR reasons.  I know we always dismiss that aspect, but -- in this instance -- it's valid.  Huntington could have used the signing for good will, to convince fans in "the plan", to convince fans that his owner isn't cheap.  I think it would have been smart for Plummer to use the message boards even more than he did to rile up the fan base to encourage management to sign his client.  That's just good marketing.

You're in PR, JAL.  Surely you can see the value in him using social media such as this blog to influence team behavior ... the same way that he was feeding info to Dejan in order to get stories in the newspaper to accomplish the same thing.  It's definitely odd, but he certainly appears to be a forward-thinking agent.

Assuming, of course, it was him... :-)

A simple question to Mr. Plummer (if that is indeed you/him),

If you told the Twins that you would not shop their offer and it is reported that you told the Pirates that you would contact them to either inform them or to give them the opportunity to match/beat any offer, why is it being reported that you contacted EVERY other team involved except the Pirates?

Something doesn't ring true to what you are saying. 1+ 1 != 3.

We didn't sign the kid because it was the agent's fault...have any of you here ever been in ANY business deals..the strong survive...poor buc's..he didn't play fair...the entire pirate FO can spin this any way they want..they wanted this kid so bad....BUT IT WAS THE NASTY AGENTS FAULT....it's the same as saying we lost the game because the umpires didn't want us to win...the blame starts and ends right on 6th street...when you hire baby face GM's you get these results.

I'm crushed.  As the kind of guy who still collects all of the minor league baseball cards for the Pirates as well as the major league cards... all prospect knock-off cards etc. this was HUGE for me.  I was dreaming about this.  I was one of the ones asking EVERY day this summer if anyone had news while relaying what I was reading on Jorge Arangue's twitter page.  I'm absolutely crushed.

Both sides blew it.  The Pirates had HUGE PR to gain so should have just thrown an extra million out there... it would have been worth it.

Plummer seems to have taken a weird angle and gotten personal against the Pirates FO.

As a true die-hard fan I feel screwed by both sides.  This is a massive PR blunder regardless of whether the kid turns out to be anything or not.  

... very sad.

DK, unbelievable coverage of the Sano situation...hats off.

@ Jimmy: In most failed negotiations, each side will attempt to paint the other as the "devil."

Critical as I can be of the FO, I am not sure the blame was completely on them. Hoewever, if they were asked to back of and did not or were told what the process would be and chose not to follow it then that is not a good sign.

Trying to cultivate a relationship with the player/player's family is one thing. Doing it in order to cut out the agent is another. The family hired the agent for a reason.

Jose

3

If Plummer is really logging on to internet message boards to defend himself, he's an even bigger tool than I thought. Especially a site dedicated to the team he spent all summer extending a middle finger towards.

A note here to DK as well. Without the level of coverage provided, we wouldn't be able to talk as in-depth as we are able to without it.

Thank you.

Jose

4

Fat Jimmy

If he wanted to influence team behavior he should have done before Sano signed.  If he wants to defend himself he should write an op-ed for the Post-Gazette or ESPN.  I would never advise a client to post on a blog in the middle of the night, that is not good pr.  Social media yes, but like that.  

Today marks the last day I'll will follow the Pittsburgh Pirates in any fashion until there is a new ownership.  Not only am I discontinuing my season ticket plan, but I won't even watch or listen to the team anymore...I just can't take it anymore!  How can the Pirates Ownership justify not investing 3.5 million dollars in an elite blue chip short stop prospect?  I feel just as duped as when they bypassed Matt Weiters.  My tolerance level with this organization is exhausted.  Hopefully there are enough dissatisfied fans amongst us who boycot the current ownership group and force them to sell.  A further plunge in attendance/revenue is the only thing that will force Nutting's hand.  

I'm with Tor.  Both sides messed this one up.  If the agent wants you to respect the process, then ya gotta respect the process.  With that said, Plummer let his personal feelings (and frankly if he's this sensitive, I think he's in the wrong business) get in the way of negotiating the best possible deal for his client.

The Pirates, though, do come off sort of like Cartman when he was waiting for Nintendo Wii to come out.  "Come on.... Come onnn....." just pacing back and forth in front of Rob Plummer's office.  Then Plummer would come out and occasionally say, "Ya know, pacing back and forth in front of my office isn't going to make this happen any faster."

Like I said, both parties screwed this 1 up.  O well, I guess we'll have to do it with good ol fashioned American Boys (and Starling!).

@ gorilla: Plummer was under no obligation to be "nice" to anyone. From what DK has reported, there apparently was a lot of interest and there were conversations going on.

The PBC tried to make it look like they were the only ones interested and represented that to us through various comments.

Leaving aside whether Plummer posted here or not, there was, as usual, far more to the story than we knew at the time. I am disappointed that Sano went elsewhere. I do not interpret it as Plummer (or anyone) giving Pittsburgh "the finger."

If the PBC wanted him so bad then they should have treated the kid and his designated representative the way they needed to be and further, as I said above, should have gone for the jugular with the offer.

I knew this would be trouble when NH gave a disertation this summer on "assigning values" to potential signees.

Jose

5

The dealings with Sano now seem typical of the way Huntington and the FO operate. The same thing happened with Alvarez where the Pirates tried to go behind Boras' back and appeal directly to the family.No one, repeat, no one, likes to have anyone go behind their backs - not friends, family or business. It's rare that a player negotiate his own contract, so agents are a necessary evil. Huntington must learn to deal professionally with them regardless of his personal feelings about the particular agent.

I would say the inability of Huntington and Gayo to respect the agent-client relationship is the main reason Sano did not sign with the Pirates.

In the end, Plummer did work for his client. Meaning he did get him a better deal than what was offered initially.

However, he didn't really work for his client. Meaning, when his client wanted to sign etc, he refused to do what his client wanted. Moreso, who's to say he couldn't have gotten more money for his client by letting the Pirates counter? His pettieness could have shortchanged Sano.

Personal feelings should not get in the way of business negotiations. In that way, Plummer was a total failure to the player he represented.

Or, as better said by Michael Corleone:

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgment"

Moneyball

Sano is not an elite SS prospect.  The stories on this point out that plans are to move him to the outfield.  

Fat Jimmy

Any taking of private negotiations to the public forums is highly unprofessional and foolishly imprudent.  

It sets a precedent that would make any future client shivver with discomfort. To publicly disclose, even ex post facto, his inner thoughts of a negotiating process,  are beyond stupid and rise to the level of self destruction

I do not believe that it was Plummer,  but  was  roto-rooter, instead.  If it was Plummer, then his days as an agent are perilously close to an abrupt end.

@ WhyDidn't: Good analogy! It is almost like they were pressing the button at the crosswalk repeatedly to get the light to change faster.

I wonder what "bucket" the Sano money will go into now? Take a look at Mateo, maybe?

Jose

6

Just to prove I can't keep a promise (to stay away), I 'm popping back in to say that I see no reason to doubt Rob Plummer was commenting here, last night. The tenor of the comments was not that of one amusing himself with a prank, it was of someone not thinking he's getting a fair shake in the public's eye.

Drew, how have you been, my friend? I must say that I don't see the inconsistency that you do. Plummer calling all the other teams, yesterday, was *not* to shop Sano, now that he had the Twins offer. I see it as merely a courtesy call, telling any other teams which also had been interested and in contact, that Sano was going with the Twins.

Allderdice,

"...your spiteful public comments... to settle what seems to be a personal beef with an executive."

If you re-read everything Plummer posted, he never bashes Huntington. In fact, he goes out of his way to variously praise Huntington, say "he's doing a good job,"  and that the Pirates' failure to sign Sano "Miguel is not a Pirate has much less to with Neal as it has to do with the contact that was made to Miguel and his family."

Now, I pointedly asked whether or not this then meant Rene Gayo was acting as a loose cannon who should have been reined in by NH. That question was dodged. I interpret that thusly:

Plummer had two motives last night: First, to respond those calling him "scum" (or in my case, "schm_ck"). (Say what you will about how unprofessional that might be. I, for one, would have done the exact same. Ballplayers always want their side heard. So do politicians. Why not influential agents?)  And then while he was at it, Plummer seized the chance to start the mending of fences with NH. Unusual, yes. Impossible to believe, not at all.

And I'll leave you all with this thought: for $2.6 million, I tend to think the Pirates offer probably was legit. But don't, this is the same FO that made phony offers to re-sign Jack and Freddy, especially regarding the latter. (And it's irrelevant that, after the fact, Freddy became too injured to achieve 600 AB.) Don't be so sure that NH's priorities weren't in the order that follows: 1) Don't be perceived as "over-bidding," 2) DO be perceived by the fan base as having "tried" 3)actually sign Sano.

Tah tah!

JAL, you're clearly an "old" PR guy.  With old PR tactics.

Every one on here trying to juxtiposition the poster's comments vs. what was said/reported in DK's coverage is missing the point.  This guy wasn't on here last night because he was bored on a Tuesday night.  He's spent the last four months trying to create tension between the fan base and NH.  Now that negotiations are over and his player is signed, he's taking 15 minutes to log on to a board and say a whole lot of nice things about NH, trying to assuage any of the resultant anger that would boil up from us toward the FO.

Why?  There are only 30 teams in baseball, and of course he wants to make sure the Pirates bid on his next player (whom we happened to learn about today, didn't you notice?  And it turns out he's BETTER than Sano!  Quelle coincidence!!!).  

So now he logs on.  Tells us what a great management team we have.  We're headed in the right direction.  It wasn't about Neal, it was about the Twins' great offer.  But, don't worry Bucs fans, you've got great leadership and you're headed in the right direction!  And, Neal, if you're reading this, my next guy will accept credit cards!

He wasn't on here to tell us the truth.  He was on here to spin us again to set himself up for future negotiations with the club.  It may not help much, but it was only a 15 minute investment of his time (or even an employee's time) and now this blog is debating him instead of ripping NH a new #@%!%# for failing, yet again.

Where is NuHo when we need him?!?!

And I gotta agree with gorillagogo re: Plummer posting on the blog. Why even talk to Dejan in the 1st place then?  Why not just come here and tell us all 1st hand?

I just can't see an agent hopping on here to justify a deal to a fan base.  Can anyone provide example of where this has been done before (not being ignorant, just curious)? The quote about him reading the blogs doesn't really prove anything.  A) Look how many blogs deal with the Buccos that JAL posts everyday.  To trace that to mean the PBC blog, that's a big assumption.  Not saying he doesn't read it, but to say that that line def means it's him  is overreaching I think, and B) just because he reads them, now he has to post on them?  And to justify his actions to a fan base?  Doesn't make any sense to me.  

And the line about I got a 13 year old for 2012?  Ok Rob, let me get my calender out.  2012 you say?  MARKED!

As Zisk wrote "Something doesn't ring true to what you are saying. 1+ 1 != 3."  Something is just not adding up which makes me hugely skeptical.  I'm just going to go by what Dejan put in his coverage.

Cave,

Plummer did no negotiating, last night. Clearly, he had been following this BLOG during negotiations -Dejan quoted him as saying as much. It was after the deal was done that he showed up here to get his side out. Again, call it unprofessional as some will, it is was it is. I don't see the disadvantage to Plummer, in showing up here. Usually the local team's management has the advantage in media "face time." Most definitely, it was an unprecedented boon for us who were here, last night. Face it gang, how often do any of us really get to know the agent's perspective? In the age of instant blogs and electronic media, I well imagine we have just witnessed a future trend. And I don't know that it's a bad thing, either.

I wonder, was Mr. Plummer ever informed that $2.6M was the Pirates' "best bolt"?

Superb coverage of the saga, DK!

@ JL: I think your assessment is spot-on.

Jose

7

JL,

If you are at a car lot and the sale's person tells you that the price on the car you are interested in is at $12,500 and you look around and there all signs point to no one else having been on that lot for months, would you offer the guy $14,000 or would you try to get the car for $9,000?

NH did what any sane, reasonable business person would have done, he tried to get the best that he could for the cheapest price that he could without over paying simply because he could.

Plummer is at fault here because he wanted complete and total control over the process and took it personally when it didn't get it. The fact that any agent would sit on a single offer when it was very well known that there were other extremely interested teams waiting to match or beat it reeks of incompetence.

But don't, this is the same FO that made phony offers to re-sign Jack and Freddy, especially regarding the latter.

=================================================

It's also the same Jack who called the Pirates back (after he threw his "If I can't play with Freddy I don't want to play here" fit) and was like hey about that whole offer to re-sign me thing....

By then, as you know, it was too late.

I'm really interested to see if Jack gets more than $4mm a year in FA.  I really am.

Cave, why should Sano or any other client care.

Four months ago, none of us knew who Sano was or would have cared one way or another if the Bucs signed him.  For four months, though, we were rabid in our interest in him.  I assure you that Plummer called Dejan to tell him about the Bucs' interest in his client.

His job as an agent is to create a market demand for his client.  Rallying the fan base is one method for doing so.

Of course, the one thing he forgot is that Bob Nutting is not influenced by fans.  He will make his millions whether we show up to games or not.  Buy jerseys or not.  Give two #@%@ or not about the Bucs.  As long as his MLB welfare check keeps coming in, he can laugh his way to the bank.

Today said a lot about the plan, NH, and the evil overlord, Bob Nutting.

I'm having a tough time being upset about not signing an alleged stud we might see around 2014.

I was late getting online this morning.  Thanks for making my day start off like crap.

I have to say there is an even stronger distrust brewing between Neil Huntington and the fan base.  After being a huge advocate of this guy, I'm starting to think there is no chance he's going to turn this around.

I'm done with this team. Absolutely done.

Fat Jimmy

Oh, I think not--I advise clients to use Twitter, to set a place on Second Life,  to establish interactive blogs,  to set up RSS feeds, and much more. :)

@Drew

I thought the same thing last night about shopping the offers around and asked Jorge Arangure about it and he basically said that he gave all teams (except the Pirates) the chance to meet his initial demands of a deal over 3M.  Once the Twins came in officially at 3.15M, he accepted it within 10 mins and the rest of the teams were shut off.

21sthebest - It seems to be about more than just signing Sano.  It's about commitment to actually put up the resources to make the Pirates competitive.  It's about being competent enough to execute the plan... if it's a good plan it won't matter if you can't execute.  It's about convincing the fans that the effort and dollars put forth as fans aren't in vain.

Forget Plummer, I wish Neal and Frank would sign on and talk directly to us.  I for one need some convincing.

@Fat JImmy

If the events played out as DK has stated, how does this reflect on Nutting at all?  Do you really think he told NH what to offer?  Unless there was an offer that NH wanted to make but was shot down by Nutting (which hasn't been reported anywhere), it looks like he stayed out of it and allowed his GM to determine how much to spend on the player.

Jose

By all accounts, Plummer refused to negotiate with the Pirates all summer long, despite the fact that the Pirates were the only team to put an opening offer on the table. The Pirates were perhaps too overzealous in their pursuit of Sano, but it's hard to look at all the facts in this case and come away with the impression that Plummer acted in good faith towards the Pirates.

You can disparage that by saying I think he should play nice, or whatever, but the fact is that big market teams like the Red Sox and Yankees explicitly avoid Plummer's clients because they don't appreciate his tactics. The fact is that it was the Twins who caused all the delay this summer when they asked MLB to investigate Sano, at a time when, according to news reports, Sano wanted to sign with the Pirates. Then, out of nowhere, Plummer accepted the Twins opening offer within approximately fifteen minutes of negotiations. I'm sure it's just a coincidence that he considers Twins VP Mike Radcliff a good friend from back in the day. It certainly **looks like** Plummer steered his client away from the team Sano wanted to sign with and towards the team Plummer wanted him to sign with. I'm sure there's a lot that went on behind closed doors and all, but I don't think saying Plummer gave the Pirates the finger is much of a stretch, if any at all.

The Plan is Working and the fans are really excited about it!

Today, NH will explain that Sano did not have theat great of a downward plane, so this will be no big setback...

Jose

8

Can I truly be the only one here that doesn't blame NH for this?

I'm not saying that he couldn't have done some things a little differently or that he is saintly pure....

But come on! Plummer completely allowed emotions and hurt wittle feewings (sic) get in the way of his being able to do his job to the best of his ability. He did not call the Pirates to let them know that the race was officially on nor did he even have the decency to give them a courtesy call to tell them it was over.

He called the freaking beat writer for crying out loud instead of the GM! (no offense intended DK)

That alone tells me that, even though he is successful, he's in the wrong line of work.

EJ, it's simply a matter of where "the buck stops".

I completely disagree with Dejan about assigning fault here.  It's quite simple.  Gayo screwed up by overplaying his relationship with the family.  Huntington screwed up by not keeping control of his employee better AND by not bidding more aggressively.

But at the end of the day, Nutting made a commitment to the fans that the Pirates would improve their MLB talent by more aggressively acquiring talent in Latin America.  The best opportunity to acquire premium talent that we've ever had was Sano, and the Bucs failed to acquire him.

We can blame the agent, we can blame the player, we can blame the FO.  At the end of the day, the responsibility for results lies with Bob Nutting and -- in terms of results -- the Bucs failed.... yet again.  The Buck Stops with Bob.

@ Fat Jimmy

Wouldn't it be better to go smooth things out with Neal himself than to post on this blog?  If his motivation is what you are supposing, wouldn't that make more sense?

And, if you weren't going to go to Neal himself, why not go to Bob or Frank or someone else in the Pirates FO?  Why come to the fan base to smooth things over with the GM of an organization you may want to negotiate with in the future?  I can see if he felt the attacks (from being called scum or sch_uck like JL said) and wanted to disquell that (which then leads me back to, if hes so sensitive, how is he a sports agent?), but yours just seems too far fetched for me.

I remain not convinced and will only cite Dejan's coverage.

Morning inmates, good tidings

Trying to scan all the posts, a busy day for this place,

I guess the thing that bothers me is that as DK points out, the relationship with Plummer does not bode well for any future dealings, "torched" is the word DK used, I think.

Can these guys do anything right???  ; }

"But don't, this is the same FO that made phony offers to re-sign Jack and Freddy, especially regarding the latter."

That's really funny.  Freddy will have trouble duplicating that "phony offer" as a free agent this winter.

This is a huge disappointment.

It's a huge disappointment, mostly because the front office was promoting their interest in this guy so much.  Personally, I'm not sure I would have, other than in passing, known who Miguel Angel Sano was, if Huntington/Gayo were so hot on him in the first place.  (That's why I take exception with those of you who question whether this kid was worth 3mil or not.. clearly Huntington did and couldn't get the job done)

I don't expect that the fans in San Diego, are feeling crushed that their team didn't sign the guy, because they probably didn't even have the guy on their radar.  Conversely, I don't expect much outrage when we fail to sign that Cuban kid either - mostly because we don't hear Huntington or anyone in the Pirates front office trying to get into the market for that guy.

So, my point being, that regardless of where you want to assign blame, or whether either side is blameworthy, perhaps a better way of looking at this is effectiveness.

Huntington did not get his man.  

Assigning of blame is no more important in this situation as it is if I, as a salesperson, lose a sale.  Maybe there are reasons outside of my control that I can point to why I did not win a particular sale.  The bottom line, is that my boss, my company could care less.  I'm here to make sales, whatever it takes.  And Huntington is here to get deals done.  The more he fails in dealings like this, or does not get a good return for players like McClouth or Bay, is reflective of his job performance.  I think many of us are in agreement that the strategy of blowing up the team and rebuilding is sound.  

The problem with Huntington is that the EXECUTION of his strategy has been flawed.

Zisk,

"Plummer is at fault here because he wanted complete and total control over the process and took it personally when it didn't get it."  What is so unreasonable about not wanting to negotiate with teams, while Sano's age is still an unresolved matter? His age, most definitely, should be on table first. The outcome of the MLB investigation was supposed to make things clear -a factor that would significantly change the complexion of any negotiations. Asking all teams to wait until Sano's age could be out on the table, is hardly unreasonable. And neither is being piqued with the Pirates for ignoring that request. I'm no apologist for Plummer; ideally, he would have rose above being upset about this. But as he put it himself, last night, what's for Sano himself to be upset about, regarding the end result? Personally, if I were Sano's parent, I'd be much happier my son was going to the Twins organization, than the Pirates.

As for the used car lot analogy, I guess the car shopper from Minnesota drives away with the ca, huh!. That there WERE other interested parties, but know-it-all-Neal decided for himself that there were not, is Neal's fault, no matter how you try and spin it.

I'm out, gang. Say what you will about all of this, at least we were distracted for a day from the on-field product we currently have in Chicago.

FJ

Creating a market for his client ?  Yes.

Rallying a fan base is inconsequential.  The front office should make it's decisions based on sound strategic principals which are procured through input from the different levels of management and a Board of Directors.  

When I negotiage to purchase a company, I don't negotiage with the consumers who use their products.  I negotiate with the principals involved and that is where the lasting impressions are left.

Any future dealings that I have will include as part of my due diligence a profile on who I am dealing with and how they have acted in the past.

Plummer's actions have gone a long way towards filling out his profile.

On the other side of this, Opie et al, butcherd these negotiations into fine little tube steaks which can be proudly served at the next meeting of the General and Limited Partners of the PBC.

biz is right.  What does this say for Dominican negotiations going forward?

@ Zisk

I'm placing blame on both parties equally, but if I had to place amounts of blame inside the Pirates, I'd say Gayo is the main culprit (from the way I'm reading Dejan's coverage).  Could Neal have pulled him aside and said, "Hey, Rene, we really want this kid and his agent is asking that you put a little distance between yourself and the family."?  Yes he could've, but I'm sure that someone from Plummer's camp had to have communicated that (whether it be Plummer himself or the family or anyone else involved).  It is possible to be over-zealous.  In this case, Rene seems to have been.

Don't want to put any conspiracy theories out there, but one thing that just popped into my head was what if Gayo's continued employment with the club depended on Sano's signing (not saying Sano specifically, but a major Dominican prospect signing)?  Could be one reason for his "spirited" attempt to get this kid in a Bucs uni.

"It's about commitment to actually put up the resources to make the Pirates competitive.  It's about being competent enough to execute the plan... if it's a good plan it won't matter if you can't execute.  It's about convincing the fans that the effort and dollars put forth as fans aren't in vain."

Triple G,

As to resources, the past two drafts are good enough for me to not let the Sano failure have me questioning their commitment.  And I don't know what the exact truth is here.  Even if the Pirates botched this, Plummer is a guy the Yankees and Red Sox refuse to deal with.  Seems like Plummer played some games with the Pirates here.  But whatever.  Again, the kid is 16?  I'm not jumping off a bridge.

JL,

You said, "That there WERE other interested parties, but know-it-all-Neal decided for himself that there were not..."

Let's be factually correct here. We all (and NH) knew that both the Twins and Orioles had interest, but we were the only ones to actually put out an offer.

Please don't twist the facts around to make a point.

Fat Jimmy

Excellent point re: Plummer logging on here last night. Originally it just struck me as exceptionally narcissistic -- someone negotiating multimillion dollar deals is so thin-skinned he has to log onto a message board to defend himself from all the bad awful things being written about him. But your comment makes a lot more sense.

@ gorilla: You make a cogent point. It may well be that you are correct. I of course, still have myself snug and warm with my suppositions here, but I can't rule out what you are saying. Thanks for the follow-on!

Jose

9

JL,

I'm not implying that Plummer should not have wanted to wait until the age issue was clearer. He should have because he would have a stronger position from which to negotiate.

What I am saying is that, when the Pirates did not want to wait, he got offended and did not like the feeling that he did not have total control over the entire process. Once that occurred, he acted like a "girl" who had just been spurned by a boy and got vindictive and started chasing after his friends to spite him (to steal an analogy from "baseballagentesq").

Back to my own analogy, a smart car salesman would have gotten the number of the person that walked because he wouldn't budge and told him "Hey, I've got this guy here that is making a firm offer on that car you wanted. He's at $12,750. Would you like one last shot at it at $13,000?".

But I guess that Plummer is either:

A) Not a "smart salesman"

B) Acting like the shunned little girl

C) Both which makes him even more incompetent at his job that he allowed B to interfere with being A

Why didn't I...

Why can't he do both (call Neal and post on the blog)?  Again, it may likely have even been someone on his staff rather than him personally (he never did identify himself, he just spoke as if he was part of the negotiations).  Look, it was 15 minute investment of time.  If he can help calm down the fans, that's less vitriol that Neal will get today and likely the less vitriol Neal will have toward him.

We're making it seem like posting on a blog is akin to Barak Obama showing up at our front door asking if he can come in for dinner.  It was 15 minutes on a blog -- in and out -- if it helped reduce the tension between the fans and Neal (and subsequently Plummer and Neal) then great.  If not, it was 15 minutes.

@ sside67

I totally get what you are saying, but I disagree  a bit.  Yes, it does come down to, Neal either signed him or he didn't, but as we know in life, not all situations are black and white.  The world would be a much simpler place if it was.

Even with great Dejan coverage and "supposed" Rob Plummer defending himself on here, we will never know exact specifics of what went down.

If you lost a sale because you weren't convincing enough to the customer, then yes, it's certainly on you.  If you lost a sale because the customer didn't like one of your board members, should we hang that on your shoulders?  I think not (maybe you're just a more harsh critic of yourself, but I couldn't hold you accountable for that).

Ok  I am wrong.  Ants marching and read Dejan's post=====================

I have a question for anyone.

Here's a quote from Plummer on July 25, 2009:

"Money will be the No. 1 factor in deciding where he signs."

Did Plummer give the Pirates a chance to better the Twins offer?

I have a question that all of you should be asking.

If Sano is really as good as they say he is, why did Plummer have to try to get more interested parties to bid for him? If he is that good, wouldn't teams already be waiting to sign him?

I think he is not as good as advertised and all of the other teams picked that up. Either that, or something else is wrong with him. Why wouldn't the Yankees or Red Sox enter the bidding if he is that good?

Zisk,

What he is not, is a "used car" salesman. He specifically promised the Twins he would not shop their offer.

That he also did not want to do business with the Pirates, I've never argued against. Indeed, I found him trying too hard to make up to Opie, with all his posts last night, after the fact. But at the end of the day, Plummer held the cards and Opie should have realized this and acted accordingly. Either that, or Opie never was as intent about signing Sano, as he was about "being in control" of negotiations, himself. From the Pirates vantage point, you can't change Plummer, but you control your own approach, accordingly. Opie failed. Pirate fans lose.

Cave, your analogy of purchasing a company is completely off.  In this instance, Plummer is trying to SELL a company, not buy it.  I can't tell you how many acquisitions I've been a part of where the company we're acquiring has recently hired a PR firm or marketing company or IR firm to trumpet the business as loud as possible.  Get the acquiring firms excited.  Get the shareholders of acquiring firms excited.  It's a lot easier to open your wallet to buy something if you know that your constituents will support the move.

The analogy I would use is how retailers put candy and coloring books on shelves 1 ft. off the ground at the checkout line.  It's a lot easier to sell that stuff when a constituent important to the customer is clamouring for it!  Much like we did with Sano.

But, again, Plummer overestimated how much Bob cares about us.

For everyone excusing the FO:  you'll have a nice pocket-full of excuses to wipe your noses following our 20th consecutive losing season.

Ugh.  I'm miserable.  This would have been such a nice sign of hope for the future....I suppose Sano didn't have a good downward plane.

@ Fat Jimmy

But why would any agent care about how the fan base feels towards a FO?  I don't see the connection there.  Because he wants things to go smoothly in the future?  Why not try and make sure negotiations go good in the future by having them go good in the present (or past...I guess past because those negotiations are over)?

If what is being said about the Yanks and Sox not dealing with this guy, then I'd have to rethink my assessment of blame in this situation.

This whole situation just strengthens my belief for a worldwide player draft.

JL,

That is one thing that we both agree on...That NH failed during the negotiation process of this particular player who was represented by this particular agent.

I guess we will have to respectfully disagree as to why the negotiations failed and what percentage each of the primary parties should be allocated in the blame game of who didn't do their job as well as they could have.

Great job keeping it civil by the way.

"you can sit there and sit there and sit there and if everyone wants to beat the highest offer then nobody goes full bore.  If you don't promise not to shop their offer then why would the Twins go to ownership if they think that the Yankees are just going to beat their best offer.  Why would the Yankees make a big offer if they think they have the opportunity to beat any offer. "

This seems to me to be the definition of an auction, in which a seller attempts to get the highest price for his goods by openly  setting the bidders against one another.  

Assuming that was Plummer, he needs to learn a bit more about his buisiness.

Good morning, all.  What a night on the blog!  Crazy!

I have no idea if the poster above was Plummer - there seem to be clues on either side - but I've repeated one of the comments in the original post by whoever it was:

"I just felt that the Twins really waited patiently and then were the ONLY team to step forward at the end with what we wanted. "

My question is this:  when did the Official Plummer Offer Period begin and who was notified of its start?  It doesn't seem as if the Pirates were among those contacted.

Perhaps the Pirates, and particularly Gayo, did not begin this process as Plummer would have wished.  However, if Plummer really held it against them, then he did not have his client's best interest at heart - he was more likely setting the stage for future negotiations for other clients.

I don't hold the Pirates blameless, though.  They should not have allowed this to happen.  Perhaps a redirection of course at some point during the process would have been wise.  Huntington should never NEVER react out of frustration in negotiations.  

Fat Jimmy,

Care to make a wager that the PBC will not hit that 20th consecutive losing season mark?

irate

"If Sano is really as good as they say he is, why did Plummer have to try to get more interested parties to bid for him? If he is that good, wouldn't teams already be waiting to sign him?"

There were questions surrounding his actual age that scared some teams off. Ironically, it was the Twins who pushed MLB to investigate. Beyond that, there's just an inherently large amount of risk when it comes to projecting a 16 year old's future production. I'm sure most teams just didn't like the amount of risk involved. Finally, it's been reported that some of the big money teams like the Red Sox and Yankees don't deal with Plummer because they don't like his tactics. Given the information available to us about the Sano deal, I can see why they don't want to bother.

@Why didn't I..

To take the 'sales' comparison further down the line, you might not hold me accountable for losing that particular sale, and perhaps I am a harsher critic - I've tried to eliminate limiting beliefs and excuses from my thought process..

But at the end of the day, I'm going to be measured by the whole body of my work for a year.  For me, at the end of the day, that's a very measurable sales figure.

For Neal, it's a little different.  He might lose out on Sano, but is the whole of his performance going to translate into a winning franchise?

What other negotiations has he been involved in and how successful have they been?

We might measure trade by trade, player by player - but if the goal is to produce a competitive major league club, Neal hasn't done it yet, and it is very much open to debate whether he's brought in the best talent in his trades.  He certainly cannot be considered a successful GM until the Pirates produce a competitive team (much like a new sales person, on a guarantee, wouldn't be considered a success until he comes off of guarantee and begins to meet sales goals.)

It's all a question of how much time you're willing to give him.  2010 looks like #18, and the real opportunity may be 2011.  

I thank God every morning I have never looked into a cup and seen it half empty.

I guess statistically we are split in half, not here though.

Some of the same people who announced with certainty that kerrigan was not coming back have been quite on that and gave found a new and unabridged pounce to jump into the muddy waters with.

Geeze Louise, take a break and go buy your wife a flower!

Agents who are lawyers never say "goodnight" more than once.  People who love the sight of their own words do.

Zisk, You are not alone in supporting NH on this.  I think that NH is trying to do a good job for the Pirates.

Good to see Kerrigan coming back.

Does anyone else think we should say goodbye to Vaszuez Cruz, and Bixler?

Stuart

This....to me...is the final straw.

I've been supportive of this ownership group and Huntington until now. But enough.

I've obvously never seen the kid play and who knows how this will turn out since he's 16....on the one hand. On the other - he was almost universally regarded as a great prospect and it was an opportunity for the PBC to make an impact in that region. Not that anybody should just throw money away, but this signing, even it Sano "missed" as a big league player, had far-reaching implications imo as far as the Pirates influence in the Dominican.

Huntington and Coonelly dropped the ball and quite honestly I'm done with them. For all the talk of how Coonelly was one of MLB's best....bull! I know....and I respect Dejan....Plummer didn't cooperate....he didn't call Huntington back....the kid liked Gayo....blah, blah, blah, blah, blah!!!

Neal Huntington failed at his JOB....that's the bottom line. Part of his job is to get the dynamics with the agent - and I don't care if its fair or not....THE PIRATES HAVE GOT TO LEARN TO PLAY THESE TYPES OF GAMES!!! I'm not buying the poor-Pirates-tried-and-got-screwed mentality. That's been going on for 17 years.

And if Frank Coonnelly was as good of an executive as Bud Selig and others claims that he is....when he heard that Huntington had to hear about this signing from Dejan...from the beat reporter (and I mean no offense).......HE WOULD HAVE FIRED HUNTINGTON ON THE SPOT!!!! THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THIS.

I am done with the PBC.

DK -- Thanks for your excellent coverage on this topic, as well as your terrific daily coverage all season long.  I'm sure you're looking forward to a few well-deserved months off.

Just read Plummer's quote about his "feeling" for the Pirates fans.  Please, don't insult our intelligence!!  While I think NH could've handled this differently, Plummer clearly has a Boras wannebe complex .

Another "fan for life" is fed up, and  jumps ship.  And a Pitt/Wannstadt fan to boot.  There just aren't enough bridges in the 'Burgh to accommodate all of these people.

Next year, when we are rid of some of the dross on the roster, we will be more competitive.

Stuart

In my experience, some of the best moves are the ones that don't happen. I think Sano would've gotten a lot more if he was that good, regardless of whether he was 16 or 18. The Cards got the best Latin American this summer.

The Sano situation's totally Plummer's fault.

* The Pirates made the only offer at the Int'l Signing Deadline

* Plummer extended the deadline for his client to get more offers

* The Pirates stayed in touch with the family & Plummer to let *everyone* know they were extremely interested in Sano and that interest hadn't cooled off

* Plummer never specified a bidding end time, but merely ended it as soon as any team offered more than the Pirates

I can't say anything about what the Pirates did in the process, but what Plummer did was sleazy and beyond biased. To be so biased, he must have some sort of deep-seated hatred of Pittsburgh. If he's from Philly, maybe the '60s Bucs beat his Phils in the first game he ever went to see? Maybe he used to have recurring nightmares about Mr. Rogers? Maybe he choked on a Clark bar when he was 5?

Good grief, are half the commenters even reading the articles any more? This sounds like a pretty clear-cut vindication of the Pirates front office. They weren't given a chance to match the offer simply because Plummer felt threatened by the fact that they spoke directly to the family.

This seems well-nigh indisputable, and it makes absolute fools out of all the people on the last blog entry who said it was all about money, and used the news as an excuse to trot out the same tired cliches about spending. But on this very entry, people are still doing it, having clearly either a) not read the article, or b) not understood it.

Good God, I give up. Not on the Pirates, but on the fans who are so addicted to despair and hooked on outrage that they don't care to understand what's actually happening. I'll go elsewhere; there are plenty of places where people don't allow their righteous anger to crowd out all rationality.

Look on the bright side:  at least Sano, Like Wieters, will likely be in the AL and we won't be constantly reminded of these blunders.

Is there something in the Pittsburgh water/  Something in putting on that Pirates uniform?  Why is it wall to wall incompetence and stupidity?

Any way Nutting can get a mover down to the Domican Republic?  That "academy" is going to have little use after Huntington and Gayo burned all these bridges.  Just move the whole thing, brick by brick, to India where we apparently have the inside track on all that talent.

WarningTrack wrote re: Morning links: The Sano saga

on 09-30-2009 6:13 PM

Good grief, are half the commenters even reading the articles any more? This sounds like a pretty clear-cut vindication of the Pirates front office. They weren't given a chance to match the offer simply because Plummer felt threatened by the fact that they spoke directly to the family.

This seems well-nigh indisputable, and it makes absolute fools out of all the people on the last blog entry who said it was all about money, and used the news as an excuse to trot out the same tired cliches about spending. But on this very entry, people are still doing it, having clearly either a) not read the article, or b) not understood it.

Good God, I give up. Not on the Pirates, but on the fans who are so addicted to despair and hooked on outrage that they don't care to understand what's actually happening. I'll go elsewhere; there are plenty of places where people don't allow their righteous anger to crowd out all rationality.

_________________________________________________

Well, WarningTrack....you got me and all of those "fools" out there who are ticked about this! Clever, clever. Nope...didn't read a word about this and just started typing. Just a hater...that's what I/we are.

I have no doubt Dejan was accurate and this is how it went down....but its been 17 years of "it wasn't our fault" innuendo's that have devastated this franchise and fan base.

And you sir....are a fool yourself if you think that the Pirates have no culpablity in this. Part of Huntington's job is to assess the dymanics of the situation: if Plummer felt threatened....Huntington needs to get a handle on this and have a plan.....if it means assessing that the key to getting this done was kissing the agent's behind and NOT the family....then the PBC needs to get somebody in who understands the dynamics of the landscape down there.

Look....the bottom line is that they wanted this kid and ended up losing him for what appears to be less money than they were willing to pay in the end. Everybody who follows the coverage about the DR knew that a key to getting an "in" down there was making a high-impact signing so that in the future the PBC would be taken seriously.

The Pirates failed miserably on both accounts....and that's all there is to know.

I'm betting the $5 million for that academy could now have been better spent on bringing back Jeremoy Burnitz and Derek Bell for a year to roam the OF at PNC!

the goal was to sign sano...

failure.  no matter how you spin it.

isn't he the whole reason they held back a bit during the first rounds of the draft this year?

They had to know not signing Sano was probably at least $1 million worth of additional bad publicity. They are the franchise that hyped this kid, they were the ones leaking to the press about his abilities, touting their D-R Academy and ties, and their dogged pursuit of this kid.

So in saying that, why not just match the offer originally wanted by the agent? Then and there. Sure, overpaying? Yeah, but like a person with a bad credit score, you have to overpay to secure loans. That is where the Pirates are.  The Pirates score in the 400's on the Credit Report, so with that comes the higher cost of doing business because of the credibility aspect.

To me, at this point, I don't care about the minute details or he said/she said. They almost effed up the Alvarez signing going to the 11th hour and 59'th minute, and they did *** up the Sano deal. I said before, I don't mind the drafting of Sanchez (who was rated about 20 slots lower) provided some of the savings went toward signing Sano, not just overslotting other draft picks.

Another Epic Fail by the Nuttings. Regardless if it is Littleyield or Huntington, FAIL!

The Nitter and the Nutter sticks it to Pirate fans again. And you know what, those who continue to go and continue to pay interest, deserve the raping they get.  

The whole process of finding and signing players out of Latin America is a slimy mess.  Until MLB grows a brain and throws these kids into the draft people like Plumber are going to get rich at the expense of kids and families who don't have any other course of action.

This is sad for all around.  I really wonder how much of that money the kid will ever see/keep?

@baseballagentesq

"Anyway, I have a 13 year old for 2012 that is even better than Sano.  Just know that being an agent isn't easy and neither is being a GM. "

So it's true. . . pimpin' ain't easy?  Seriously -- listen to yourself.  

I guess what I don't understand is how, if every other team was hands-off (per Plummers' alleged instructions), how was it only the Pirates who were tone-deaf out of 30 teams?

That makes little sense to me. Nor does the idea that NH wasn't informed that the negotiations had actually started.  Gotta think Bucs would've gone a little higher than $3.15M.