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Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds

By Dejan Kovacevic | 6:32 p.m. Tuesday

CHICAGO - Miguel Angel Sano, the top prospect in the Dominican Republic, will sign with the Minnesota Twins for a $3.15 million bonus, agent Rob Plummer just told the Post-Gazette in a phone conversation.

Sano, a shortstop expected to convert to the outfield, had been intensely pursued by the Pirates.

"You know, I feel like I was in touch with the Pittsburgh fans on this, from reading the blogs and message boards, and I feel bad for them," Plummer said. "Sano could have been a Pirate. And when the fans see the figure Miguel signs for, they'll know that."

Plummer made clear that his relationship with the Pirates, particularly general manager Neal Huntington and Latin American scouting director Rene Gayo, became frayed during the process.

The Pirates were the only team to make an offer -- $2 million -- when the July 2 international signing period began, opening with $2 million. They raised that to $2.6 million a month ago, the latter payment to be split in three parts.

But talks were minimal in the past three weeks. Plummer had asked all teams for more time because he wanted to sort through Sano's visa and age issues -- a Major League Baseball investigation called his age "undetermined" despite Sano's claim of being 16 -- but the Pirates remained aggressive, including regular contact with Sano and his family.

Gayo desperately wanted to sign Sano, a player he described as the best prospect he has seen in a lifetime of scouting. By all accounts, he succeeded in getting close to Sano and his mother, but Sano's baseball coach remained deeply loyal to Plummer, as did the family, ultimately.

Through it all, each side expressed strong distrust in the other.

"I think contracts are made entirely of relationships, that people should have a comfort level," Plummer said. "Things fell apart because Pittsburgh never believed I had other teams interested in Miguel. I gave Neal every opportunity to sign Miguel for a reasonable amount, but he was afraid he was bidding against himself. When he sees the signing, he'll see that."

Plummer said earlier today that, even if the Pirates had come back with more money, he would not have signed with them because he appreciated how the Twins dealt with him.

Huntington and Plummer had agreed last month that the Pirates would get a call once he reached agreement with any team, but both sides acknowledged today that Plummer never called them back.

Huntington declined comment on the matter until Minnesota announces the signing. Twins general manager Bill Smith declined comment.

Sano, in a conference call, predicted a rapid ascent.

"I'm very thankful to get this chance to sign with the Twins," Sano said. "I'm going to work very hard to try to get to the majors in two years."

UPDATE 10:44 p.m.: Huntington, on Sano: "We were aggressive in our attempts to sign Miguel Sano," Huntington said last night at Wrigley Field. "We made an aggressive offer on July 2 but were told by the agent that they were not prepared to negotiate at that time. Per our standard practice, we remained in contact with the player and the agent throughout the summer. In an effort to expedite the process, we made a second offer of significantly higher dollars. We were again told by the agent that he was not prepared to commence negotiations, but we left those conversations with a clear understanding that the agent would contact the Pirates when he was prepared to begin negotiations. Miguel Sano has apparently agreed to terms with another organization without his agent engaging the Pirates in legitimate negotiations. While we are disappointed in the process and outcome, we wish Miguel nothing but success in his future."


Posted Sep 29 2009, 06:32 PM by Dejan Kovacevic

Comments

marty34156 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 6:37 PM

And to think I actually thought the Pirates might sign him. Silly me, Nutting spend $3M I must be insane!

STLRFANRC wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 6:38 PM

FIRSTIES!!!!  

Why does this have to back up the good news from today?

STLRFANRC wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 6:39 PM

Ouch....bad boy neal....nice going.

Baywatch wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 6:40 PM

Oh, Sano will probably be a bust!

WarningTrack wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 6:42 PM

Yeah, those cheap Nuttings, they won't even spend $3 million! Unless it's on that new facility in the Dominican Republic they just built. Or if it's twice that on a Scott Boras client...of it's three times that much on the amateur draft...in consecutive years.

Good grief, this whining and moaning about the finances is getting absurd. You don't get to ignore all the money they're spending no draft picks and development just so you can pretend they're being horrendously cheap. I realize this facts get in the way of the constant complaining and cliche, repetitive accusations, but they're facts nonetheless.

marty34156 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 6:42 PM

Bay

Lets hope so!

CullenH wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 6:48 PM

Here's what I'm not worried about:

Not signing Sano. The kid is 16, he may make it or he may not. I could take or pass here, though he would have been a nice addition to our system.

Here's what I AM worried about.

Huntington. It doesn't sound like he did a very good job here. No trust in each other? Bad relationships? Neal must have done something stupid to get Plummer to not even call him before the contract was signed. Does Neal not know how to build relationships?

Again, I could take or leave Sano, but I'm worried all of a sudden about the larger picture and NH's ability to negotiate...

GoBucs wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 6:49 PM

It's not the money that bothers me, because I believe Nutting would have approved approximately $3 million to sign.

This is another black mark on the FO, and the way they appear (from my vantage point at least) to alienate key people when they should be kissing their a$$.  Another very clear example of how they seem to lack people skills, both in the way they come across to fans and apparently how they deal with agents.

This really is disgusting.  Now the eternal optimists will opine that he'll just be a bust anyway, so no real loss.  That's not the point.  Management has to take gambles on players like this, especially when the price is clearly reasonable, if they are going to put a true competitor on the field.

joerevs300 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 6:50 PM

Wow, I am SO shocked by this development!

So the logic goes, they won't spend $3M on Sano, but they'll spend to sign Hank Blacock?

I won't be holding my breath...

Oh, and I love the $2.6 million SPLIT INTO THREE PARTS.

Yeah, if I was Sano and his agent, I'd take $3.1M too.  All at once.

CullenH wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 6:50 PM

@Warning Track

There are certainly posters on here who blame everything on Bob Nutting and his wallet. I don't understand it either...

We are not the Yankees...

joerevs300 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 6:51 PM

@Warning:  The Pirates get around $20M in revenue sharing, yet they were only 7th in spending during the MLB draft.

Pardon me for saying this, but considering the Pirates ML roster barely qualifies as one, they should be #1 EVERY YEAR in draft spending, if the goal truly is to build from the bottom up.

Groat2Maz2Strangeglove wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 6:51 PM

Huntington [imaginary] quote:  "Yes, we saved $1.65 million from the alloted number for the June Major League draft, and yes, we saved $3.15 million from the Caribbean free agent period by not signing Sano  .  .  .  .  but we will just put that money back into Major League operations.  Our team will be stronger in the future because of it.

Anybody have any Rookie League prospects they want to give up?"

Is that quote really imaginary?!?!

joerevs300 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 6:52 PM

"Now the eternal optimists will opine that he'll just be a bust anyway, so no real loss."

Truer words have rarely been spoken in this forum.

CullenH wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 6:53 PM

It's getting harder and harder to believe all the good stuff that I want to believe.

However, not because I don't think there is a good plan in place. It's looking more and more like the people in charge don't know how to execute.

marty34156 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 6:55 PM

Eternal pessimist will point at this as another reason why the Pirates will never win.

pierogisnat wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 6:55 PM

another banner day for the best front office in baseball

marty34156 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 6:58 PM

CullenH

I agree with you, the plan is in place some of the pieces are too either already here or in the minors, McCutchen, Duke, Alvarez, Tabata, Jones, Alderson, possibly Clement and Linocoln. But I'm wandering if the front office has any clue what their doing. But at least they resigned Dave Kerwin.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 6:59 PM

I think the miss on Sano is the result of several issues:

1. He is a clubhouse cancer.

2. They needed the money to sign Dave Kerwin.

3. They'd rather get Duke a standing ovation.

IT'S A CULTURE OF WINNING!

Srsly.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 6:59 PM

Nahhhh, it's not about the money.

It never is.

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:00 PM

Hmmm...$3.15mm doesn't seem to be an outlandish sum.  Wonder why no one else was willing to step up and sign him for that figure or more?  Could it be that other teams, the Pirates included, felt that he wasn't worth more than their last offer?  

If there were a dozen teams interested, why did the Twins get him for that low figure?  Just asking.....

CullenH wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:00 PM

DAVE KERWIN HAS HIS JUKE!

ej wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:03 PM

The interview certainly confirms what most people say about Plummer and why he didn't have teams like the Yankees and Red Sox bidding for Sano.....he's a world-class douche.

almartin_uscgrad wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:07 PM

"Unless it's on that new facility in the Dominican Republic they just built. Or if it's twice that on a Scott Boras client...of it's three times that much on the amateur draft...in consecutive years."

Warningtrack - Take the amount of money you describe above and then subtract that from the amount of money the Pirates saved the last two years through trades.  Do you think the sum would be a positive or negative number?  If it is a positive number it's not going to be very high.

The Dominican academy doesn't mean much if they don't sign players from the Dominican and get them to the major leagues.

And they should be spending a ton on the draft since they're sure not spending much on the major league roster.  The draft is the only way they're ever going to improve.

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:09 PM

So, Plummer acknowledged that he reneged on his agreement to negotiate with the Pirates?  Am I reading that correctly?

Man, it sounds like he just wanted to stick it to NH and RG.   Must have been some helacious discussions.  

TheSaltyRogue wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:09 PM

Wow.

Really thought we'd end up getting this kid - though nothing in recent memory points to that - and to end up missing the boat for about $550K?  Wow.

A lot was riding on the Pirates signing this kid and they failed.  They deserve to be called on it.  I think this day is a darker one, in at least the hardcore fans minds, than any trades done in the last 12-14 months.  What's it all been for Neal?

That said - if there was an agreement that the Pirates would have a "final offer" and then were not even brought into discussion at the end, well, that's wrong.  I know the world ain't all gum-drops and rainbows - but when two guys have an agreement, they have an agreement.  

Gonna be fun - and perhaps tremendously painful - to watch Sano progress as a ballplayer.  $550K - WOW.

GO BUCS.

Plenty of Hope wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:10 PM

Crap.

GoBucs wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:10 PM

@BetterDaysComing - are you saying that you don't believe the agent?  If so, it seems kind of pointless.  One team was willing to pay a little more than the Pirates, and that's all that matters.  I would be shocked if at least 12 teams didn't contact  Plummer, which would mean they were interested.

The bottom line is, the Pirates had him sewn up if they handled negotiations properly.  They didn't, so the team I wish I followed got him.  Just another example of why the Twins are the Twins, and the Pirates are the Pirates.

coreybower wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:12 PM

Groat: I'm not sure what you're referencing when you say the Pirates saved $1.65 million in the draft.  If you're referencing them saving money by drafting Sanchez, don't forget that they spent a lot of that money in later rounds.  Overall, they spent over $2 million (42%) over the MLB slot values.

www.baseballamerica.com/.../draft

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:13 PM

I agree with almartin about needing to sign the kids in the DR.  However, I would point out this is just one kid from the DR.  Would have loved to have him and it's obvious they wanted him as well.

It all ties into the "value" that they attach to any and all players.  They won't overpay no matter the pressure.  

MarkInDallas wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:18 PM

This was obviously not about money. This was about Huntington and Plummer's relationship souring.

If Plummer thought he could get a a lot more from the Pirates, certainly he would have gone that route. But he thought maybe he'd get a little more from the Pirates, and since Huntington p***ed him off, why go there?

There's no doubt that this should elicit a gut check from Huntington to hopefully improve his negotiating tactics in the future.

Demery44 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:19 PM

Come on with the excuses.

With all the salary dump trades, everyone said just wait till we get Sano. We'll show all you "negative nellies" that Bob will pay.

Sano is overrated. Sano is really 39. Sano is on crystal meth. Sano has a bad agent. Yada, Yada, Yada.

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:20 PM

GoBucs,

Yes, that's what I'm saying.  It would appear on the surface that the agent was creating some of the hype surrounding his client just as any agent would.  There's nothing wrong with that.

My point is that I'm surprised that the price didn't go higher if he's that highly valued.   That indicates that there weren't too many bidders.    

madturk2008 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:20 PM

I wonder what name Plummer uses on this blog to bash the FO?    

Distrust ?  it takes two and we have been put off a long time with Sano signing or not.  A last call before signing with the Twins would have been nice and more telling if we want to blame the FO on the money side of things.

ej wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:22 PM

@GoBucs

No, I don't believe a word that Plummer says.  Everyone that talks about him says the same thing......he's a tough person to deal with and the reason why teams like the Yankees and Red Sox never even sniffed at Sano.  

I wouldn't be surprised if he never gave the Pirates a chance to outbid the Twins.

macsinthebox wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:23 PM

"Plummer said earlier today that, even if the Pirates had come back with more money, he would not have signed with them because he appreciated how the Twins dealt with him."

@ ALL,  So not only are we cheap we are obviously Pi$$ing people off as well.  Not good

It doesnt sound like we are dealing with Scott Boras here

Las Vegas Pirate Fan wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:23 PM

If more than 2 teams were bidding for this kid, he would have gotten WAY more than $3.15 mil.  Probably a million more, actually.

Plummer is a crumb.  Always has been, always will be.  

DK says the relationship soured with Gayo too, not just NH.  Gayo is about as respected an International Scouting Director as there is....

Yes, I'd love to have the kid.  But, trust me, if the Yanks or BoSox or Angels thought he was that great, they'd have had him....for like 4 mil+.

I blame Plummer.

GoBucs wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:24 PM

This "value" concept is fine and dandy, but it's not much different from the slotting (or whatever it's called) in the draft that calls for approximate signings for draft picks, which they are willing to exceed.

If they identify someone who they feel could be truly special, and feel that he's worth $2.6 million, paying $3.15 in select cases should be acceptable.  They're going to have to slightly overpay on occasion.  If they are unwilling to do so, then they are significantly reducing their chances of successfully executing their plan, and for no good reason.

My gut tells me that they would have likely paid $3.2 to get Sano, if given the opportunity.  Do I fault the agent, not at all.  If the FO thinks they're dealing with robots, well they aren't.  They're dealing with people, who want to be treated with respect.  If they act in a way that puts people off, then they deserve to be snubbed in response.

diehard wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:25 PM

"Huntington and Plummer had agreed last month that the Pirates would get a call once he reached agreement with any team, but both sides acknowledged today that Plummer never called them back."

This is just pretty much confirmation of what we've been hearing through Plummer for a while.  (reading between the lines of previous articles)  He didn't want Sano to sign with the Pirates, regardless of what Sano's wishes appeared to be.  Plummer actually confirmed that he lied to Huntington.  Nice.  Would have been nice to sign the kid, but I think we've found out that we were only being used for leverage to get someone else to pay.

ej wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:25 PM

@MarkInDallas

The Pirates aren't the first team to have terrible dealings with Plummer, so I wouldn't jump to blame NH here.  There are a number of teams that pass on his kids because they don't want to deal with him.  

joerevs300 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:25 PM
Arriba Wilver wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:26 PM

corybower--the Pirates (you know, the team with the losingist record in all of sports) were #7 in spending in the draft this year.  #7!  And I think that came from the Commish!  AND they lose out on Sano????  I don't know if they're cheap or incompetent.  Scary thought--maybe both.

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:26 PM

"Plummer said earlier today that, even if the Pirates had come back with more money, he would not have signed with them because he appreciated how the Twins dealt with him."

LOL....way to look out for your client's interests, Bill!!!  

Cave Bonifield wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:28 PM

They should have been top bidder for this kid, period.  No excuses.  They did their due dikigence and got cold feet.

This is a black eye for Opie.  Soon he will be wearing a patch over one eye too.  

joerevs300 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:31 PM

Something I found in my travels...

"Along with the Twins and Pirates, other teams attached to Sano:  Yankees, Cubs, Cardinals, Orioles, Rays, Blue Jays, Athletics and Rangers."

It appears in the end it was only the Pirates, Twins and Orioles in serious discussions.

And how could NH think he was bidding against himself?  I mean come on.  Most reports I read put his signing bonus over $4M.  

joerevs300 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:34 PM

Great piece by DK about this subject back in May:

www.post-gazette.com/.../970744-63.stm

If Sano does turn into a Hanley Ramirez...and could have been had for $500K more, it'll be a REAL dark day in Pirate land.

joerevs300 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:35 PM

@Cave:  I think Pirates fans might be wearing patches over both eyes when it comes to watching this team next year.

naje wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:36 PM

Nothing like jumping to conclusions. Everyone did it all day yesterday and now they're going to do this today.

The baseball world--and all of pro sports--are riddled with agents like Plummer. You can believe what he says, but there's two sides to this story...actually three, but Plummer would never let Sano or anyone from Sano's family or camp talk so we'll never know what this teen (??) thought.

Baseball is run by agents. Some are good, some are bad...and all of them get paid a percentage of what they can get for their client. They are not out for anyone's interests but their own. And this guy is no different.

Please keep jumping to conclusions like these are the only facts of the situation. I'm sure we'll hear plenty more in the coming days about how terrible it was to deal with Huntington and the PIrates, wah, wah, wah, and that Huntington is evil and he did this and he did that... whatever. This is the same emotional, non-factual drivel from the same over-emotional reactionaries on this blog.

Plummer couldn't get anything for Sano from the get-go. And then when he was supposed to have the kid all prepared to be ok'ed by MLB, what happened? He didn't do his job and the MLB officers had to step in to investigate. If the PBC didn't pay what Plummer thought, what can be done? He got his player the money and now he's bad-mouthing the front office that didn't pay him? Sounds really trite to me.

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:36 PM

GoBucs,

In fairness, I would suggest we wait to see the response from both Huntington and Gayo before determining how badly they handled this negotiation.  Your gut may be right and they may have been willing to pay more but unfortunately we'll never know because, based on the agent's account, he decided not to give the Pirates that opportunity.

Your comparison of this situation compared to the draft slotting is flawed in its premise, IMO.  Slotting is a value assessed by others based on order of the draft compared to previous payouts for that slot.  This is a situation where the organization was willing to pay out a certain amount based on their assessment of what that player is worth, much as they did when paying above slot for many of their picks.

Not sure what the robot reference means.  Respect is a two-way street.  You get it when you earn it.  NH and RG may have overplayed their hand.  By settling for a relatively low number, it looks like Plummer may have done the same.  The real loser in that scenario is Sano.

CBerry88 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:37 PM

Wow, I'm pretty stunned

Plummer screwed the FO big time and I'm kinda suprised more people aren't acknowledging that.  We had a great relationship with the Sano family but we didn't want to throw a huge amount of money at him without first knowing his market price. In return, Plummer doesn't even allow us the chance to give a counter-offer once another team finally makes a bid.

People will be nailing the FO to the cross for not bidding high enough once someone else made an offer but they were never even given the chance.

That's pretty messed up

DMac wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:38 PM

If anyone is interested, PBP will be in the lineup thread...

AramisRamirez=HOF wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:39 PM

Well I'm not completely surprised by this.  It seemed like the longer it dragged on, the greater the chance the Pirates wouldn't get him.

You can talk all you want about the money being issue, the money not being the issue, etc.  But if this kid was the world class talent that he was advertised to be, you're telling me that under $1 million was what kept the Pirates left out in the cold?  This is the type of 'bargain-hunting' mentality that has gotten them in trouble in the past.

And supporters of the Pirates fiscal attributes love to point out the fact that tickets haven't been raised in however many years now.  With the poor play (especially this year) coupled with the economy, you could easily argue that prices should be LOWERED next year.

From 2000 -  2008, I attended about 10-20 games per year.  This year, I attended three and I don't expect next year to be much different.  My money has been going towards Pitt football and basketball, even though I still find time to watch nearly every Pirates game on TV and they remain my favorite pro team.

I'm not one of those people that says, "I'm done", knowing when Opening Day rolls around, I'll be first in line at the ball park.  And I support the trades they've made for the most part (with the exception of not trying to sign Bay and dumping him in what looks to be a horrible deal).  But aside from loving baseball and going to to see a game, I have no real attraction to go more than a few times a year.  McCutcheon is a great talent and Garrett Jones could be a real find, but other than that, there's not much there.  

So I guess what I'm asking is, what is the hook for next year?  Yes, I know baseball is a great game.  I know the park is a great atmosphere.  But baseball-wise, what is the allure?  Alvarez and Lincoln in all likelihood won't be up until at least mid-season and some of the better prospects they have - Alderson, Hernandez, Marte, Sanchez, etc. are all over a year away.  So it's not even like they can point to the prospects and say 'Come see them'.  Tabata may be up for Opening Day, but that's no guarantee either.  There's no draw such as the Yankees to get people to buy tickets to other games and no strong finish like they had a few years ago.

And yes, I understand Sano wouldn't have been here next year.  I just think a little goodwill goes a long way.  The Pirates are the most fan-friendly organization in Pittsburgh.  But I can't tell you how many times I had opportunities for free tickets this year and refused.

I'm curious to see if any free agents of significance will be signed.  Moss and Pearce look like solid bench players, but I don't think either is a starter.  They really could use a third outfielder to go with Cutch and Milledge.

Okay, I'm done now.

Plenty of Hope wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:39 PM

Of course, if  Sano does turn out to be truly great, the Yanks or Sox can have him anyway - without investing the time in him. Money talks.

GoBucs wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:42 PM

Everyone is open to their opinion, and mine is nowhere nearly as jaded as NuHo and some others.  That said, the positive spin toward the club and negative spin toward the agent is incomprehensible to me.

I believe their overall approach is a good one.  However, their lack of execution in some cases is unacceptable.  They should be in the top 5 in draft spending every year.  Even then, that would make $7-$10 million spent instead of $5 or $6 million by most others.  Is that really that big of a big deal?  Good, absolutely, but hardly anything to heap endless amounts of praise on them for.

Arriba Wilver wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:43 PM

I think Brian Bixler should be the face of this franchise.  You know, seems to  have the tools, does OK at the lower levels, but when he gets to the big time strikes out way too much.  And every game he gets in seems to make the big  mistake, whether it's running the bases, fielding or striking out with the bases loaded and two outs.  Pitiful.  And very sad.

Bizrow wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:45 PM

Another chip in the pile of mess

I can't wait to hear the positive cheering spin on this one

You gotta build relationships, IMO pulling the first offer off the table and maybe lowballing said put in your own words, you know what I mean

I'm not trying or shooting to be disrespectable about the FO, except for JR, but it walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, it looks like a duck, over and over and over, pretty much the Sherlock Holmes in me says its a duck

?????

The Deacon wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:48 PM

We may not have Sano, but at least we have Anthony Claggett!

popsfan wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:52 PM

been away from the computer for a day -- quite a lot of Pirate news to digest.

Selig -- he may be a weak commisioner and make poor decisions regarding on-the-field matters. and seems to be  more bean counter than baseballer, but I cannot remember evidence of him being a liar.

Russell -- I understand the explanation but the decision just displays a lack of comprehension of the big picture.  Who really cares if Veal gets work in three days before he will pitch again?  Its the end of the season and there is an overflowing bullpen.  Duke's game was special and would have left the fans with a not-so-bitter taste in their mouths about the season.

Kerrigan -- a positive, but second tier bit of news.

Sano -- Plummer negotiated in bad faith. Regardless of the relationship between him and the Pirates, he flat out lied.  Had the Pirates been been given the chance to counter, I think for $.55MM they would have.  Unfortunately, if Sano becomes a big-leaguer, all that will be remembered will be that the Pirates were outbid by a meager amount.

ej wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:53 PM

Just to put the info out there

jorgearangure   My read of the situation is that the agent did not like the close relationship the Pirates had with Sano's family

Demery44 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:54 PM

It's all Plummers' fault. The players can't stand Huntington.

DK reported the players like the manager and coaches. No mention of the GM. Neal can't deal with people, just numbers.

He's arrogant and incompetent.

joerevs300 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:54 PM

@CBerry,

Explain to us then, what the agent is supposed to do when the Pirates are offering $2.6M in THREE installments, when other teams are willing to pay $3M up front.

Is he supposed to "wait" until the Pirates give it to him all at once?

Just like with Aramis Ramirez, the Pirates will regret their decision to just not put up the money for a long time.

Arriba Wilver wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:54 PM

PoH--<Of course, if  Sano does turn out to be truly great, the Yanks or Sox can have him anyway - without investing the time in him. Money talks.>

Wow, that sounds very "apologist" to me.  Can't wait to see the "we were losing without him, we can lose without him"  explanation.

We can blame the agent here, we can blame the draft being bad, we can blame Jack and Freddy for not accepting the Pirates' "reasonable" offers.  We can blame Ian, we can blame Gorzy, we can blame Boras, we can blame no salary cap, we can blame Hill for being reluctant to come back, we can blame the Yankees and the Boxox.  

When is it appropriate to blame the FO?

FormerSoxFan wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:55 PM

Really interesting stuff from ESPN's Jorge Arangure:

twitter.com/jorgearangure

Basically, he's saying Plummer didn't like Rene Gayo's relationship with Sano's family, and thinks the Pirates would've offered more than the Twins had they been given the opportunity.

I don't get what Plummer is doing here.

joerevs300 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:56 PM

@naje,

And this is back in May...the projected signing bonus for Sano was projected at around $4M.

The only reason it didn't get that high is the Yankees and/or Red Sox didn't offer him that.

The last report I saw had the Pirates, Twins, Orioles and Reds as the 4 most interested teams.

It still does not explain how or why the Pirates would offer below what the Twins did in installments?  I have never heard of that kind of an offer to a player like Sano.

Rich_in_Madison wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:58 PM

EPIC FAIL!

With payroll at such a pathetic level, how can you not come up with an offer better than $3.15Million?!?!

I'm sure NH will come up with some BS about giving it their "best bolt" again, but this really leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth.

joerevs300 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:58 PM

The Pirates shouldn't have waited to counter.

If they wanted Sano, they should have flat out come out and offered him $4M up front.

I suspect Plummer would have taken that.

But if I'm the agent, and I'm offered $2.1M first, and then $2.6 in three installments, it would appear the Pirates were the ones operating on the cheap, not the agent.

Demery44 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:58 PM

Biz, I feel bad for you because you were always monitoring Sano.

You were always holding out hope that Sano  would sign. I really thought they had him signed too.

Come to the dark side.

joerevs300 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 7:59 PM

@Arriba:

Never.  Because NH and FC know what they are doing. :)

leadoff wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:00 PM

I would prefer to wait until the whole story comes out before passing judgment on anyone in this case.

I have not heard Huntington's side of this story, or the Yankees or Boston or the Orioles or any other team that did not get Sano.  

ej wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:01 PM

@joerevs

Actually, splitting signing bonuses into multiple years isn't as uncommon as you make it sound.  Alvarez's bonus was split into at least 2 payments.

Shane wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:01 PM

Great job FO!

pipecock wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:07 PM

so i'm confused. did we not develop a good relationship by being the first team with an offer on the table? and then we raised it after they dragged us along under the pretense of getting "other teams interested"? and our final offer was only beat by $500k but there was "no chance" of him signing with the Bucs even if they highballed? how is this the Pirates fault? i don't understand. this sounds like the agent was a punk and wanted to take us to the cleaners. i wish the Twins lots of luck with this guy.

pipecock wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:09 PM

"Really interesting stuff from ESPN's Jorge Arangure:

twitter.com/jorgearangure

Basically, he's saying Plummer didn't like Rene Gayo's relationship with Sano's family, and thinks the Pirates would've offered more than the Twins had they been given the opportunity.

I don't get what Plummer is doing here."

wow. again, how is this the Pirates fault?!?!?! i don't understand.

CBerry88 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:10 PM

@joerevs

Why would the Pirates put up an unprecedented amount money for him before they knew what, if anything, other teams were offering.

Plummer told the Pirates he would call them once an offer was made, presumably to give a counter-offer.  That call was never made.  The Pirates were not given a chance to outbid the Twins.

C'mon, you know that in negotiations you never start with your high bid.  Not when buying a car, not when making business deals and certainly not when trying to sign a 16 year old who has never played baseball at any professional level.

The Deacon wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:11 PM

When you have a team as talent starved as the Pirates, you can't let an extra $1 million (Ramon Vazquez' salary) get in the way of superstar-upside talent.  Of course the agent was *** after he was lowballed repeatedly by the Bucs.  The agent is a jerk, but the Pirates are the real screwups again.

pipecock wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:14 PM

"Of course the agent was *** after he was lowballed repeatedly by the Bucs."

$500k is lowballed?!?!?! seriously? what kind of crack are you on?

Bizrow wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:15 PM

Demery

I'm trying to not take sides, folks get labeled, don't like that, but I do think speaking your piece is a good thing.

I appreciate yoiur humor, it is priceless

That being said, I cannot connect with people that "just happen to have lunch with FO", or "I ran into FO the other day", I'm pretty much a scumbag that sits in right center and I don't like talked down to, I don't like being lectured to by anyone else but MY mom and I learned a long time ago with my son after many battles, the words "This is what we're thinking" is pretty awesome.

Shoot gotta post this on all the sites, Hart once again has no heart.

Go Bucs, since 1954.

BetterDaysComing wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:17 PM

GoBucs,

Well said.  Hey, I wanted him too.  It's a bitter pill to swallow.  I'm anxious to read the response from all involved parties.  

Either way, we don't have him and we're left to pick up the pieces.  The sun will rise again tomorrow but it may not be as bright.  ;-)

Hang in there.  It has to get better, doesn't it?

FormerSoxFan wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:19 PM

"$500k is lowballed?!?!?! seriously? what kind of crack are you on?"

It was also the second highest offer he received, apparently.  And it was offered two months ago.

Arriba Wilver wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:22 PM

PoH--just saw your response from the last thread on the interaction with the players and fans.  Thanks.  I went 2 out of the last 3 years for the final game, but decided not to this year because I did not want to support the crap we are being fed by this ownership group.  Was it really as limited as you stated about the player participation?   I remember FC being particularly upset his first "last game" that more players didn't participate, so I didn't expect there to be a rerun of that.

Batavia wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:22 PM

In between the littany of criticism for letting an unproven amateur sign for probably more than he is worth, ask yourself this question: Why were the Twins and Bucs the only suitors? Could it be that this agent was trying to sell a bill of goods? With the money the Yankees and Red Sox spend, 3 or 4 million would have been nothing, but they apparently had no interest. Hmmm.

One of the cardinal rules of negotiating is setting a price and walking away when that price is not good enough. Sometimes that means you lose, but it is foolish to pay more than you think a guy is worth. Plummer squeezed a bit more out of the Twins. Good for him and them.  It is not a bad thing to get a reputation of setting a price and sticking to it. You win some you lose some.

If you get every guy you go after, you are spending too much money.

Demery44 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:24 PM

Hart's looking good tonight.

soccerman77 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:28 PM

Why is everyone blasting Plummer? I blame NH, BN, and the Pirates.. They put their eggs in this basket and basically said they were getting him. If Plummer is right and NHL treated hem like jerks, he is a clown.

Again, 23 million dollar payroll, 20 million revenue and the fans will suffer..

Arriba Wilver wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:32 PM

Neal got out-negotiated, he didn't get the guy they said they wanted.  What else do you need to know?  I'm guessing $3.2 million wasn't even over their vaunted "internal value," but I don't really care.  The didn't get him. End of story.

Bizrow wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:34 PM

As I might have said, too many strings, this is IMO another indication or example that the FO has no redeeming social values, hey porn in the 70's had to make that to get on the screen.

You never know, but this fish should have not have gotten away.  Thats why the Twins are what they are, and we are little sisters of the poor

moneytalks wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:37 PM

There are 30 major league teams.

Funny how us AND 28 other teams somehow got "outbid" by the twins at $3,1m... but the Pirate FO is stupid.

Also ironic people are quick to believe an agent when agents are also not the most scrupulous people on the planet.

When there is not a lot of competition bidding for something, is anyone asking WHY more other teams weren't in the mix, and the price not higher?

Mizery wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:40 PM

I can't believe that one team can make so many blunders season after season after season. It actually is comical. One day they pull Duke to take away his arbitration negotiation powers, and then they miss the boat on Sano. Talk about touching a hot stove over and over and over again. They never learn. Ignore history and you're doomed to repeat it. So far we have time after time for 17 years. The icing on the cake will be when we lose 100 games, and  officially pull off a whole season of ineptitude.

Baywatch wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:41 PM

What is it about the road and Hart ... well, I don't like Hart, if he was pitching at home against the Dodgers.

Demery, I think YOU are the one on crystal meth ...

"He's arrogant and incompetent."

And your qualities??

The Deacon wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:41 PM

The team just dumped $20+ million of payroll (presumably to get more upside talent), and can't find $4 mil for super-upside talent?

No excuses.

"$500k is lowballed?!?!?! seriously? what kind of crack are you on?"

Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.  Not signing elite prospects.

The Deacon wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:42 PM

At least we have Claggett!

And Kevin Hart!

ej wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:42 PM

@soccerman77

So what if he isn't right and Plummer is to blame here?   What if Plummer had no intentions of letting the Pirates offer enough to get him?

It's pretty clear that the Pirates were the highest bidder for quite a long time.  It's also clear that Plummer was hoping that anyone would offer more and was willing to wait until it happened.  Why should the Pirates have bid against themselves until Plummer decided it was enough for him?

Plummer got what he wanted from the Twins, allowed the Orioles to beat it, and then cut the Pirates out.  

In teh end, it seems like Plummer had the problem, not the Pirates.

ej wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:45 PM

@Biz

Maybe it isn't a fish that should have gotten away.....but it it also may not have been a fish that they weren't allowed to catch.

Thundercrack wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:46 PM

This case is about the money.  But we're talking about a lot of money to a kid that is 16 years old.  Maybe.

I thought it was a bad sign when so many teams seemed to either drag their feet or not even attempt to sign the kid because of questions about verifying his age.

Call me old fashion but that is a ton of money for someone that is just 16 years old.  I trust Gayo and his evaluation.

And what a goof Plummer is when he says he read blogs and message boards.

Bizrow wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:46 PM

Well,moneytalks, and we will see how wise it is, the FO I think made a big deal about signing him, look at what we are doing, IMO the FO speak is their own worst enemy, and the Twins are a proven commodity with talent development, the PBC has developed who, exactly?

My-Key-Tee wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:49 PM

Outbid by the Twinkies? If there was any value in the BOY the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, etc. would have been in the game.

Move along folks....nothing to see here....

The Deacon wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:49 PM

"This case is about the money.  But we're talking about a lot of money to a kid that is 16 years old.  Maybe."

"A lot of money" is how much the team dumped from the MLB payroll the past two years.

Crazy Packers Fan wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:49 PM

What annoys me most are the people who were praising Huntington just a couple months ago because they thought he'd sign Sano, as they are the first ones to say "Sano's a bust, he's not worth the money." Of course, these are the same people who actually think this team's going to the playoffs within the next 2-3 years.

Drew71 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:54 PM

Nuts!

Thundercrack wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:55 PM

This from the Langosch blog.

Plummer said this about Mike Radcliff of the Twins:

"The major reason it happened like that is I've known Mike for something like 14 years. We trust each other."

So it seems that the guy had a better , longer relationship with person from the Twins.  He seems to be a bit "boras' to me,  but he did what he was supposed to do--- increase demand & attention, then get as many teams as possible to make offers.

To me it doesn't seem like a bad reflection of our FO, and isn't the end of the world.

soccerman77 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:55 PM

@ ej, put your self in Plummer's shoes for a minute here.. Would you want a young talent go to a team that has 17 losing season and a 23 million dollar payroll?

Secondly, The front Office built up us getting him.23 million dollar payroll, 20-30 million in revenue, they should have offered him 5 million with those numbers.

Baywatch wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 8:57 PM

@CrazyPacker - "What annoys me most are the people who were praising Huntington just a couple months ago because they thought he'd sign Sano, as they are the first ones to say "Sano's a bust, he's not worth the money." Of course, these are the same people who actually think this team's going to the playoffs within the next 2-3 years."

Why do the opinions of other people ANNOY you? Find me one or two people who were "praising Huntington a couple months ago because they THOUGHT he'd sign Sano."

I can say:

a) I wasn't all excited one way or the other about the prospect of Sano because he's just ONE player ... Yeah, I know Alavarez is ONE player we can get excited about ... pretty much one PROVEN player ... it's hard for me to get excited about throwing big money at a 16-year-old. I know those are chances you have to take at times ... but I wouldn't want to take it to the bank.

b) I figure the Pirates have a chance to make the playoff within the next couple of years ... so make fun of my opinion if you want, and GET ANNOYED!

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 9:03 PM

Again, just like last year's FA, Neil whiffed because he got cute.  If Gayo is high on a guy, go get him.  Don't try to analyze somethig that is fluid.  

I'm impressed that for a half-million, you missed a huge chance to re-plant a Pirate flag in Latin America.

ej wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 9:03 PM

@soccerman77

No, they shouldn't have offered 5M for him.  Because you know what happens then?  The best guy next year wants 6M and the guy the following year wants 7M and......

The fact is, they were the highest bidders since they made their initial offer in July.  It took Plummer almost 3 months to find someone to bid more and then, he didn't give the Bucs a chance to beat it.

I'm not happy that they didn't get Sano, but I'm also not going to overreact because people want to blame the FO for not getting it done.

Thundercrack wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 9:09 PM

Why

What FA did Neil whiff on because he got cute>

just asking, not debating.

Reading wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 9:17 PM

If his equivalent "United States" age turns out to be 29, and the deal falls through, then who do you think will be called on the speed dial?  Don't burn any bridges there.  

Bizrow wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 9:18 PM

@ej - you might be right

Blasphemy here - baywatch - the article talks about trust, maybe NH doesn't have that?  Maybe Gayo will walk as well.

Another piece of small evidence that the golden boy isn't golden sometimes

pipecock wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 9:18 PM

"The fact is, they were the highest bidders since they made their initial offer in July.  It took Plummer almost 3 months to find someone to bid more and then, he didn't give the Bucs a chance to beat it."

that is the story here, from what we can piece together. at this point, i don't care if we got him or not. for whatever reason, we were not on a level playing field despite being the only people to show him the money from day 1. only morons (hi, you guys upthread!) would think "hey, they should just throw $X million dollars at this kid and make it happen". this is the kind of thinking that got Jason Kendall a $10m per year contract.

radio wave wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 9:19 PM

POH, did you really say that??

What bothers me about this one is they lost out to another "small market" team. If it were the Yanks, Sox, etc., it would be understandable, but the Twins?

And on an earlier thread someone asked about new broadcasters. I may be in the minority, but I like Neverett's work. Yes, he is a homer, but if you listen carefully when he is on the radio, he gives you clues as to the direction of the team, and player moves before they happen.

Thundercrack wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 9:23 PM

Plummer said -"I gave Neal every opportunity to sign Miguel for a reasonable amount, but he was afraid he was bidding against himself."    I wonder if he told Neil the name of the team(s) that were also interested  and going to make offers.  If not, then Neil was right not to big against himself.  But I wonder if Gayo knows stuff like that..which teams are also bidding.

And it took about 2.5 hours for the next blog generated rumor:  Maybe Gayo will walk as well.

ej wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 9:28 PM

More info from Arangure

jorgearangure   Part of reason deal got done was because #Twins were told that if they met demands, then their offer wouldn't be shopped around

Baywatch wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 9:32 PM

In the immortal words of Willie Nelson:

"On the road again ... "

I was thinking back in the second inning, they should have just come and taken the ball from Hart, saying, "No ... You can't stay out here, getting behind hitters like that."

Could anyone else have done better? Maybe, maybe not ... but it's 6-0 now ... and much too early for Baywatch to go to bed.

I got it (snap). I can develop another life!

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 9:32 PM

They lost out on Baldelli and Branyan, among others.  If the guy from the Cardinals signed for 3.1 (and was rescinded) , and Sano is SUPPOSED to be better than him, and plays SS/2B, Plummer can't in good conscience take less than that.  

mazfromiowa wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 9:39 PM

From what I get Plummer is the one that reneged.As far as bidding against themselves ....it would be pretty stupid.If Plummer said he would allow them to up their bid....WHY are we blaming the FO on this?This is about an agent who is playing little kid games and not being professional.This guy makes Boras look like honest Abe.I mean your word is supposed to be worth something,right?

 For those blaming the regime...give it a break.I'm liking the term Grassy Knollers a lot more every time I hear a poster blame the PBC for everything from cancer,world hunger,poverty, or the next 2 mile wide asteroid that extinguishes the dinosaurs.Grow up!

Bizrow wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 9:42 PM

Yeah, folks, not that he's going to be something, but lets load up with a bunch of losers excuses, heck I used to do that all the time with the PBC

mazfromiowa wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 9:43 PM

WhyStanBelinda-From what I read he was going to be converted to OF.At 6'3" and 185 lbs he could end end up 2-3 inches taller and who knows maybe 20-25 lbs heavier.

Teke's_Sunglasses wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 9:46 PM

They couldn't sign Sano because they gave all of his bonus money to Kerrigan.

So, in reality, it sounds the Plummer took his ball (Sano) and went home because the Pirates were not playing his game.

ej wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 9:47 PM

@Why

Sano is being converted into an OF.  I doubt he ever sees the MI, even in the minors

As for Baldelli, I thought they actually had the highest offer, but Rocco wanted to stay in the AL for a chance to DH?

joker10277 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 9:49 PM

Pirates are a Joke!!!!!!!!! All you apologist need to wakeup. It's all about making money with Bob Nutting.

Baseball is dead in this town.........time to find a new hobby.

My-Key-Tee wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 9:50 PM

Maz - when/if Sano ends up @ 6'-5", 215, he'll be a Yankee or BoSox.

mazfromiowa wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 9:51 PM

ej-You are right about Baldelli.I think he wanted to be closer to the east coast as well.The Bucs offered more bucks.

saneman wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 9:52 PM

All those supporting the Pirates front office moves, tell me this. HOw much money have the Pirates spent on domestic scouting?  I don't care about player movements these two years. I want to see which premium scouts the Pirates have signed from other teams? Instead of spending $2-4M each on a few mediocre free agents, I want them to spend that money on getting top scouts from other teams. Are the Pirates doing that? I highly doubt it. So spare me the Latin America investment. I want to see scout names and their records. THere is no point debating drafts and trades of young players because it is tough for the casual fan to assess them. But we can assess the judgement of the team based on their history. So get some scouts with a good traqck record.

Mean_Gene wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 9:53 PM

The idea that a reputable agent would let a 16-year-old phenom sign with the Pirates is laughable. Remember, there are child-endangerment laws on the books.

And, if the Twins were willing to pay Sano $3.15, you'd have to think the Bucs would have to pony up millions more than that to make up for the potential damage the team might do to Sano's career.

Still, I'm disappointed that I won't get to see Sano in a Pirate uniform...for a couple of years, until he's traded to the Cubs.

aso513 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 10:02 PM

Worst part of this is Sano probably has no idea that Plummer is pulling the wool over his eyes by not allowing the Pirates to beat the offer. He is costing his client money for some grudge he has. He has lost all credibility as an agent, this is why the big market teams don't deal with him. Also, Dejan why not go after Mateo if the Cards do not want him? Apparently contacts will solve all of his "degenerative vision problems." His value has taken a hit and 2.6 million would be right in range with what it would take to get him.

mazfromiowa wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 10:03 PM

My-Key-Tee-Joe Mauer might be a Yankee in a couple years too.As long as Boston or NY can offer 25-30 mil then the best players(or most of them) will end up there.Signing a 16 year old is taking a roll of the dice.I wanted them to sign him too,but the sun rises in the east tomorrow and both LA teams,Boston,Yankees and prolly the Phillies(big city teams)will make the playoffs.If you want to complain then do it about the lack of a level field.There might be one or two small market teams in the playoffs,but as usual the 5 mentioned above(largest payroll)are pretty much a lock.  

aso513 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 10:06 PM

@Saneman when I read about the Pirates signing scouts, they are trying to mix young and old scouts. There is a huge difference in the philosophy's of the two. Guys like Kline from baseball america are more statistic driven and tools guys while the older scouts look for mechanics and other structural things. The Bucs are reaching out to new avenues lately like Lithuania, South Africa, Australia, El Salvador. Also they are strong in Panama with guys like Jorge Bishop who mashed the VSL this year.

mazfromiowa wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 10:18 PM

If I recall they hired several more scouts in the last 2 years.The new FO said the previous regime was understaffed at scout.So in 2 years prospects are still at state college,GCL, or VSL.

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 10:22 PM

at least we have Gift.

17 AND COUNTING wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 10:29 PM

If the kid would have signed with the bucs, the board would have blown up from all of the believers patting themselves on the back telling each other that he will be the next willie mays...BUT DOGGONE--IT WAS THAT AGENT'S FAULT

PiratesFanSince1960 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 10:29 PM

So What? He is 16yrs old. Its a baby. Has anyone on the blog really seen him play against quality talent? Its great, he is a baseball player and the 2nd coming? Please lets just move on. Even if we signed him, he is gonna be the savior of the pirates? 16 years old!!! Plus based on my reading, they played games with the pirates in the negotiations. Move on, he is a child from another country no less!! Culture shock, growing up, girls, cars, education, confidence around men, proper toilets, eating better, the list is endless as to what this kid is gonna be thinking about the next 3 years. Did I mention girls? If he becomes the 2nd coming in 3 years, I will step up first and say, DAMN we shoulda signed him. For now, WHO CARES he is a baby...

mazfromiowa wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 10:30 PM

WhyStanBelinda- Or as I call him Mpho.  

darylethepiratefan wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 10:31 PM

The 3 Stooges strike again, just when u thought it couldn't get any worse....DK u kept us in the loop the whole way but the 3 Stooges dropped the ball... is it really the scumbag agent or is it really nobody wants anything to do with this TRAINWRECK.?

JAL wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 10:47 PM

daryle

Stop insulting the 3 Stooges!

ConcernedChris wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 10:48 PM

Let's see....

we can't sign free agents, because they are too expensive...

we can't sign top draft picks, because THEY are too expensive....

we can't sign LATIN AMERICAN players, because THEY are too expensive,

who the FART can we afford????!!!!

Also, when will the bucs learn??? Once again, they tried to go behind an agent's back & deal directly with a player???? Seriously-I find it extremely ironic & humorous that they SAME day 'Uncle Bud' comes out on behalf of the bucs 'questionable economics', that the bucs lose a top flight talent because they were trying to get him on the cheap behind the agent's back-seriously, people GROW the FART UP!!!

GroveStud wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 11:01 PM

from this blog: twitter.com/jorgearangure

"Agent said that $3m+ would get a deal done. Twins only team to make that offer. Therefore they got exclusivity"  

"Twins were only team that met agent's demands. They were told their offer wouldn't be shopped around as a result"

So the agent goes to all teams and says "I need over $3million.  First offer over $3million gets him".   Pirates think he's bluffing and that they'll get him for $2.6.  Twins offer the $3.15million and get him.  Sounds very logical to me.  

Pirates F.O. took a risk to save $500k and it cost them the kid who would have been their star prospect this year.  Fail.

Teke's_Sunglasses wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 11:02 PM

Chrissy et al, so Alvarez wasnt signed? Uhoh. We better tell him before he makes it to Indy!

mazfromiowa wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 11:03 PM

Any chance we could have ALL agents sign a code of ethics and actually expect them to adhere to it.There are too many loopholes for teams AND  agents.Put it in black and white.

  Any one that says the FO ignored the agent or player:Per our standard practice, we remained in contact with the player and the agent throughout the summer. In an effort to expedite the process, we made a second offer of significantly higher dollars.

 Also this by Plummer:Plummer said earlier today that, even if the Pirates had come back with more money, he would not have signed with them because he appreciated how the Twins dealt with him.This is him acting like a spoiled child.

 So there was no way he was going to sign with us and btw a month or so ago Plummer said Sano would sign for the most cash.Apparently the quote from above in my post was made that statement a lie as well.Stick up for a liar of an agent...real nice.

Jose Lind's Pants wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 11:11 PM

Wow! Look at all the experts. I don't know much and I sure don't know a thing about the mating habits of lawyers, but it seemed odd that Rene Gayo was included in Plummer's List of Scoundrels.

Gmandingo wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 11:11 PM

Hey y'all

I seem to remember Plummer saying throughout the process that he was to do everything in his power to get his client (Sano) the most amount of money possible. Is this not completely contradictory to not giving the Pirates a chance to counteroffer??? I don't know if the FO messed this one up, but I sure don't think Gayo did. Really, all signs point to Plummer being dishonest and a man who goes back on his word.  

darylethepiratefan wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 11:11 PM

Regardless what Sano becomes it's about what he meant to all of us...It gave us all hope and the 3 stooges validity...Now it looks bleak and depressing....

aso513 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 11:15 PM

Look, you dopes can bash Neil, but when you know no one else had made a formal offer since 4 days ago, which is when the Twins apparently made their push, you don't waste money. The Bucs thought they'd have a chance to match and Plummer screwed them over. Those are the facts. When you are the top dog which the bucs were in the betting as of Saturday, then why outbid yourself? Fiscally it is irresponsible and downright stupid. All the FO bashers need to wake up and see that.

pi-rat wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 11:21 PM

the FO equal of the play on the field tonite. story should read E-FO. way to throw gayo under the bus. he'll have a lot of credibility with these young folk now.

FO marches into a knife fight with a candy cane- outmaneuvered, outgunned, out thought. oh no! ...the nasty agent...the agent is a bad man. GET OVER IT. THIS IS WHAT FOs DO and you DIDN'T.

great re-entry into the latin american market. a big splash- except the pool is empty.

I don't really care we didn't get him, but I do care that the FO did and fired blanks.

aso513 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 11:21 PM

And for the whole most money would get it done, read what your god Dejan said from Plummer, even with more $ the bucs weren't going to get him. Gayo went by the book and got in good with the family, and Plummer didn't respect that. The guy is scum, kinda wish Boras was Sano's agent that way when the Bucs offered more $ they would have got him no questions asked.

Manny_Sanguine wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 11:28 PM

I'm not sure how to judge all this - I'm going to hold off for a few days to see if more details are forthcoming. My gut reaction is that they should have found a way to make this happen. It's one thing to set an internal value and stick with it - sure you can stand by your principles for the next 17 years while the losing goes on and where will you be? If there is ever an area to risk a little extra it's on a kid Rene says is the best he's ever seen.

The FO better learn from this.   Seems like they handled this like they were  recruiting a college quarterback. It's fine to develop a relationship with the kid's family - maybe the hard lesson here is that it's much more important to develop good relationships with these agents - even if they are a-holes - maybe especially because they are a-holes. They need to avoid this kind of scenario in the future or we're never going to have a shot at getting special prospects.

I could understand them getting out bid - but not even having an opportunity is not acceptable and the FO better accept responsibility for their part of that.

pghboyinca wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 11:31 PM

 The Pirates REALLY wanted him or they wouldn't have ben in on the bidding and offered 2.65m. For those of you saying that the Yanks and Sox weren't bidding and that shows he isn't that valuable, they have other options for acquiring superstar talent (See Beckett, Josh: Sabathia , CC: and Texeria, Mark) When you run an organization you pick your spots where you have to be successful and you EXECUTE, no excuses. Part of THE PLAN was talent in Latin America and htis kid was the supposed Alvarez of L.A.

 The Twins are in a smaller market than us and are in the playoff hunt with 5 days left. They obviously have an eye for talent and they outfoxed us. If this F.O. was as good at baseball decisions as they are at making excuses and pointing fingers then we would be World Series champions.  Our Major League payroll is 20m less than opening day and we lost a targeted player for 500k, someones head needs to roll.

Shane wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 11:32 PM

another pathetic response from our FO stooges

nice to see all the kool-aid gulpers out in force

Teke's_Sunglasses wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 11:32 PM

Pi, The FO didnt throw Gayo under the bus.

Gmandingo wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 11:33 PM

Couldn't have said it any better Manny, and Daryle.

Dan1283 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 11:34 PM

I am very, very disappointed and upset with this news.  While I feel bad for the Pirates seemingly getting the short end of the stick here, the fact is they have money to burn and their failure to sign this kid came down to dollars.  Plain and simple.  If they would've offered $4 million to the kid two weeks ago, he'd be a Pirate and one of our top 5 prospects almost right away.  Instead, we weren't aggressive enough and were worried about burning an extra million bucks when we just slashed over $20 million from next year's payroll.

I can understand that overpaying the club's set value for a player isn't Neal's thing.  But this isn't Ramon Vasquez we're talking about (who is making only slightly less next year than what we offered Sano.)  

In a small market world where we can't compete on the Major League free agent market, we need to be overly aggressive in the young international markets, at least until there is a worldwide draft.

Teke's_Sunglasses wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 11:40 PM

Danny, How do you know 4 million would have signed him? Plummer said he didnt want Sano to sign with the Bucs.

Forbes Field Memories wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 11:42 PM

Daryle...

"Regardless what Sano becomes it's about what he meant to all of us...It gave us all hope and the 3 stooges validity...Now it looks bleak and depressing...."

You hit the nail on the head as far as I am concerned!!  I don't know who to blame, but this is very hard to take, especially on top of a 100 loss season

aso513 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 11:43 PM

How do you offer 4 million just to do it, makes no sense. If you are told you can match any offer you don't go 1 million over what the market is. You stand pat knowing your current offer is the tops, and you match what Plummer comes back with. Stop being ridiculous and think like business people please. Spare us the ignorance.

aso513 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 11:47 PM

Plummer probably read how comical it was of you idiots constantly bashing the FO no matter what, and knew screwing the team would lead to more ill advised idiotic statements coming from what he thinks is the legitimate fan base. In reality this blog aside from what Dejan writes is the pits for Pirate fans. Congrats you dopes.

Jose Lind's Pants wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 11:49 PM

Bob, is that you?

pi-rat wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Tue, Sep 29 2009 11:56 PM

@Teke-

I enjoy your comments, but my take on it: it seems gayo got in [good], implied we would do what needed sign [good], and we didn't [OUCH]. when he goes to knock on doors now, they know his eye isn't good enough for bucs to back up with buc$. I think he'll be seen as a weak inroad into what FO will do. may not be your def of throwing under the bus- I wiill grant they aren't blaming him, but I guess his position with any player down there is weakened.

again, I am not weeping over this, but we were outfoxed, rope-a-doped, and shanghaied.

Dan1283 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Wed, Sep 30 2009 12:07 AM

@aso

Because Plummer didn't say yes to $2.6 million.  The record for under-18 international signings is $4.15 I believe.  Be aggressive.  Go for the throat.  Make that kid turn that money down.  Make that agent tell the poverty-stricken kid to turn down a near-record signing bonus.  

The Pirates have cash to burn.  The slashed a ton of payroll for next year, and they saved on the draft.  They needed this move to save face and to get a guy who would have immediately been one of their top 5 prospects.  And they're gonna let that slip because they don't wanna pay him an extra million bucks???  Seriously???

Oh wait, they had the guy's word they would get the chance to match any bid!  His word!  Wow!  Lock it up!

By the way, Sano only walks away with 70% of his bonus, the rest goes to Plummer and his trainer in the Dominican.  So we could've really twisted Sano's arm with a better offer being that his family is so poor.

aso513 wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Wed, Sep 30 2009 12:23 AM

@Dan go for the throat sure, but you don't go near that record on a kid that has serious age concerns and let us face it, when the truth about his age comes out he is suspended a year. Also, lets hope Gayo still has some targets left on his radar. Also I know it is unlikely but lets hope that Starling Marte turns out to be as good as Miguel. Watch that kid play, STUD.

*ATARI* wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Wed, Sep 30 2009 12:28 AM

The deal never had a chance since the Twins management helped shag balls during practice twelve years ago....  

From MLB.com:

Plummer recounted a story about how he gained respect for Radcliff and former Twins general manager Terry Ryan during a workout of one of his players in Fort Myers, Fla., back in 1997. He said that there weren't enough people to shag balls so Radcliff and Ryan helped Plummer pick up the baseballs.

"Ever since that day, I have so much respect for those two individuals," Plummer said. "I think I put Miguel in good hands with the Twins. I totally trust the Twins"

WarningTrack wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Wed, Sep 30 2009 12:36 AM

First thing's first: people who just stop in to babble about Nutting not spending money and then drive this point home with the ironclad logic of twelve exlcamation points: you're making fools of yourself. Stop talking. Seriously. Just. Stop. You are contributing nothing to the discussion, and you're demonstrably wrong.

"The Pirates get around $20M in revenue sharing, yet they were only 7th in spending during the MLB draft."

Wow, "only" 7th? "Only" ahead of 22 other teams, you mean? And how much higher can it really be? The top spending team this year, the Nationals, spent just $3 million more than the Bucs did, I believe. And they signed the most expensive draft back in history! The difference between 1st and 7th isn't exactly huge.

Regardless, the fact that they spent in the top-fourth of all teams now instantly disproves the absurd notion that this is just about hoarding money, which was my point.

"Pardon me for saying this, but considering the Pirates ML roster barely qualifies as one, they should be #1 EVERY YEAR in draft spending, if the goal truly is to build from the bottom up."

What if premier talent doesn't fall to you? Should they spend more on whoever they end up getting just to keep commenters on Pirates blogs from yelling at them? Not every draft has a Strassburg, and it's ridiculous to spend money just to be #1 in spending.

That's what a lot of the inane commenters on this blog don't seem to get: they're mad that the Pirates are losing and don't sign, I dunno, A-Rod, so they just yell and moan and never bother to think about the situation at all. I'd accuse them of just looking at numbers, but they don't even seem to do that. It's ignorant, plain and simple, and none of them give enough of a damn to even notice when they say things that easily disproven.

It's a freakin' waste of bandwidth, and it's why I've never commented here before, and probably won't ever again. Too many mouth-breathers who just yell their baseless opinions in lieu of thought.

WarningTrack wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Wed, Sep 30 2009 12:36 AM

First thing's first: people who just stop in to babble about Nutting not spending money and then drive this point home with the ironclad logic of twelve exlcamation points: you're making fools of yourself. Stop talking. Seriously. Just. Stop. You are contributing nothing to the discussion, and you're demonstrably wrong.

"The Pirates get around $20M in revenue sharing, yet they were only 7th in spending during the MLB draft."

Wow, "only" 7th? "Only" ahead of 22 other teams, you mean? And how much higher can it really be? The top spending team this year, the Nationals, spent just $3 million more than the Bucs did, I believe. And they signed the most expensive draft back in history! The difference between 1st and 7th isn't exactly huge.

Regardless, the fact that they spent in the top-fourth of all teams now instantly disproves the absurd notion that this is just about hoarding money, which was my point.

"Pardon me for saying this, but considering the Pirates ML roster barely qualifies as one, they should be #1 EVERY YEAR in draft spending, if the goal truly is to build from the bottom up."

What if premier talent doesn't fall to you? Should they spend more on whoever they end up getting just to keep commenters on Pirates blogs from yelling at them? Not every draft has a Strassburg, and it's ridiculous to spend money just to be #1 in spending.

That's what a lot of the inane commenters on this blog don't seem to get: they're mad that the Pirates are losing and don't sign, I dunno, A-Rod, so they just yell and moan and never bother to think about the situation at all. I'd accuse them of just looking at numbers, but they don't even seem to do that. It's ignorant, plain and simple, and none of them give enough of a damn to even notice when they say things that easily disproven.

It's a freakin' waste of bandwidth, and it's why I've never commented here before, and probably won't ever again. Too many mouth-breathers who just yell their baseless opinions in lieu of thought.

GoneQuiet wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Wed, Sep 30 2009 12:59 AM

I just crunched some numbers on fangraphs.com, and determined that 23.8 Miguel Angel Sanos are roughly equivalent to one Dave Kerwin. Marginal victory: Pirates.

Bizrow wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Wed, Sep 30 2009 2:06 AM

Send a note to PoH, she will speak of a personal talk with FC, be it lunch, be it whatever and that all is right with our world

Its touching and nauseous

ConcernedChris wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Wed, Sep 30 2009 8:58 AM

<Teke's_Sunglasses  wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds

on Wed, Sep 30 2009 4:02 AM

Chrissy et al, so Alvarez wasnt signed? Uhoh. We better tell him before he makes it to Indy!>

@Teke's_Sunglasses:

Coke bottles, you are missing the point - just as they did with Alvarez, they seem to be on this trend of negotiating directly with clients & their families, not their agents & you cannot/will NOT win that kind of game. Even Dejan mentioned some of the high handed, finger wagging stuff that Huntington & Gayo used with this kid & his family-when are the bucs going to learn??? IF that kid turns out to be some phenom (like many say he will), it should be the defining moment for this front office......Really, over $500K??? They should have offered this kid $5M, they had the money, they have the budget.....I would rather sign this kid at $5M, than to spend the $5+M that we are going to be looking at in the draft next year (unless we try to draft on the cheap again with the first pick)

ConcernedChris wrote re: Sano to sign with Twins: Huntington responds
on Wed, Sep 30 2009 9:08 AM

One other thing that some of you need to remember, the Buc's offer was NOT $2.6M, it was $2.6M split into 3 payments & if i were the agent in this case, why in sam hill would I even bother asking Huntington for a counter to the Twins??? If the bucs have trouble putting together a measly $2.6M, why would he even consider the bucs as a legitimate bidder? Secondly, the bucs were trying to go behind the agents back the whole time-why do they keep doing this?? Negotiate with the agent PERIOD!