Morning links: Selig talks Pirates

no interview with Oliver, Hannah, Saul, or Cheese?  who was crowned champ by the way?

another game for my winter DVR baseball fix file.

what a shame only 2 games left on FSN.  6 left for us on tv!!!  at least the Reds think their final weekend of home games are worth televising despite the fact we are on the schedule as the opponent.

regarding video:

I come for the playground!!!  

huge majority will be back, that's good to hear.

STH field days should be a good time...you know trying to defuse the anger of today.  we'll see if 5 days is enough time to heal this blunder.  by then 100 losses will only compound the anger.

Even if Selig thought that the Pirates were putting profit over winning, there is no way he would publicly make that admission....That would put the icing on the cake for a fan base already fed up with 17 yrs of losing.  If he felt that way, those sentiments would be delivered behind closed doors...

really am hoping for good defense the next 7 games.  It would be great to remain the #1 defensive club in terms of fielding pct and fewest errors.  with our 2 today though, we are now tied with the Twins at 70 for the best mark in all of baseball.

Well if Bud Selig says so then it's got to be true!

There's really no point in even discussing it any further.

I'm sure Bud knows nothing about Nutting pocketing the profits, just like he knew nothing about steroid use in the 90's!

2 starters with ERA's under 4 is a nice finish as well.  If Duke can have a nice outing Saturday, he'll achieve that.

Ross 3.92

Zack 3.94

those numbers put both starters in the top 25 in terms of ERA for the entire NL

Does anyone else find it amusing that the Pirates receive 15-20 million a year from national TV revenue that they are only allowed to be on once every 5 years??

I bet the the contenders spending millions of dollars a year on free agents love that some of their money goes there.

Selig is a clown. I love the way MLB will not open the books or allow any clubs to yet disputes all assertions about profitability. And don't you just love him referring to Mazeroski, Clemente, and listening to KDKA as a kid when asked about today's Pirates ability to compete, How relevant. And surprisingly he thinks Coonelly is doing a great job, astounding. D.K. did you have to hit the mute button a few times to cover your laughter during this interview. I love his comment about us having one of the top 3 farm systems in MLB during the All star break, we are lucky to be in the top 5 in our division. Without Alvarez we are devoid of top tier talent, yes read it and weep. Alderson, Sanchez, Gorky's, Tabata et al are not top tier talent. Right now we are praying for mediocrity over the next 3-5 years unless you are stoned or delusional. I can't wait for the best case scenario's now to be trotted out lineup wise to refute that. The ones with DK at 2nd, Cedeno at SS, Milledge in left, Tabata in right. No other team in MLB would have that as a best case scenario. Our best case scenario has 3-4 absolute crap shoots in it.    

I wish to retract my last post several threads ago.  To give the benefit of the doubt to Jr in protecting Duke Juke being out of gas, I thank whomever that was that posted the video.

I do not know how the guy who scored got on base and to third, what I do know is the hit that scored him was a little deep pop up can of corn.

It appears no tagging the ball and no evidence of a tiring arm.

I garnish the idea that complete games do not mean what they use to supplemented by the fact if he would have got it he would have been tied for the lead at four, heck Bob Gibson probably had four by June.

But, give the guy a break, Duke should have stayed at the least two more batters.

DMAC, do not allow arybaby's to whimper your joy for the win.

This was not a win, this was a POUNDING of the best team in the national league.

What a game Andy had!

I second DMAC's request to you DK to forward that there are some of us who expect the Bucco's to go out and win every game.

I think it was a bonehead move to yank Duke who still had his Juke.  But, in no way will it quite my pleasure in listening to the game and the enjoymnet it brought.

I think the series Band of Brothers has a line from history when the 101st airborn was surrounded and offered to surrender that best explains the idea that Duke was pulled for any reason other than a bad move by the manager, NUTS.

                   ANNIVERSARY GATHERING

                     October 24th, noon time

                      Vincents of Greentree

                           Special Guest

                         Mr Frank Coonelly

                       LImited seating available

                       RESERVE YOUR SEAT

                                       to

                         tjfran@comcast.net

                  Questions for MR. Coonellly

                   can be submitted by emailling to

                         tjfran@comcast.net

                               No tie req

                      gathering news update

Since the crowd is growing one simple rule of courtesy is in order.

Everyone get the chance for a questioin before anyone asks a second question

In July, I wrote the following on Smizik's blog (see below).

He always asked me, whenever I would rail against this stuff in email, if I also long for the days of one-platoon football.

So there you go.  A yanking of a starting pitcher with one out to go in the home finale.  Without even the precious Save being on the line, at that.

I'm glad everyone in attendance felt insulted and found it to be garbage baseball like I always do, even when I witness it only in box scores in May.

-

July 13:

More and more I see box scores where managers yank a starter after 8 2/3 – even though they have a low pitch count, mind you -- and bring in the closer to get one single out without surrendering TWO runs.  This is often accomplished with one pitch.  And the guy gets a save.

That is beyond bogus statistically.  It is garbage baseball.

And it is exactly why fans like me complain.  Not because the save stinks.  Not because we hate pitch counts.  Not because we want complete games.  Not because starting pitchers are babied….

But because it is mockery to the fans, and is absolute garbage.

on an earlier thread someone posted that the Dodger announcers were joking that Andy could have stopped on third after one of his home runs to get a triple. Just for a little more silliness how about he rounds the bases but misses home plate. the Dodgers see it and appeal the play. That would give him a triple would it not?

like I said...not to be taken seriously..just a little silliness

with all that was written about todays game I did not see any mention of any interaction between the fans and the players after the game.

DK ....anyone.....??

"Know this, too: The move was very, very unpopular with many in the Pirates' family, and not just Duke and some of his teammates. People had some very harsh things to say after this."

Dejan, that's when helluva journalistic tease that you're throwing at us. WHO ELSE in the Pirates family...management, coaches, broadcasters, retirees, the parrot...WHO???

Journalistically, you've reported and made a big deal of this. If individuals other than teammates within the Pirates family are upset at Russell and commenting harshly, lets see some accountability with quotes.

"Selig said, as the Pirates have, that any profit is being channeled back into the team. He said he would know if any of it was being paid in ownership dividends."

Basically, Bud is saying "trust us."

Bud, if you've got nothing to hide, then show us the books.

On the other hand, why would you own a team if you couldn't channel profits back into ownership dividends?

That's the purpose of owning a team, no?

That's the American Way, Isn't it?

Oh, here they come - The Grassy Knollers! Of course, there's not one thing anyone could say to appease them.

If the Pirates did open the books, they'd question whether they were the real books! If you can't trust the freaking commissioner of MLB to not make a bald faced lie, then why would you believe pieces of paper supplied to you by that same commissioner?

Selig and the Nuttings are in a no win situation. The only way The Grassy Knollers are ever going to be happy is when the curtain is pulled back and THEIR OWN WORLDVIEW IS ECHOED BACK TO THEM.

If they are actually wrong, the anger in their hearts is not able to accept that.

@MarkInDallas  

Good points....

Actually then, I am not sure why DK wasted his time talking to Selig at all (or, posting anything the FO says).

If there is no feedback or quotes from the FO (or, JR, etc), then they are hiding things and avoiding the media.  If they talk to the media, it is only all lies, BS and cliches

It's ok to be skeptical with the PBC... but please, not everything is a conspiracy to lie.  And, even he comments from JR... I think only a handle of managers, coaches, etc ever say anything meaningful (ever listen to one of Tomlin's post-game press conferences - not a lot of substance in what he says)

Also, given the numbers talked about... even IF the pirates spent all their profits (guessed at $17m) on the ML payroll... that takes it up to maybe $70m from this years $50m.

So, would that $17m more of "just spending to spend" make us a winner?

Today is   TUMULTUOUS TUESDAY and we review the …

********* Nyjer Morgan/Sean Burnett Trade  **********

Trade completed on June 30, 2009.  Here’s how the players are doing for their new teams since the trade.

Stats are through Sept.28, 2009…

Nyjer Morgan – Washington Nats – OF – Bats L  (went on DL 8/27…season completed)

1 HR  12 RBI  .351  **  49 G, 191 AB, 35R,  67H,  25K, 11 BB, 24 SB  **  .396 OBP .435 .SLG

Sean Burnett – Washington Nats - LHP

1 – 1,  3.20 ERA  **  33 G,  25.1 IP, 14 H, 3HR, 20 K, 13  BB  **  1.07 WHIP .157  OP.AVG

Sean Burnett called the Pirates a "laughingstock" while playing for the only NL team with a worse record.

Joel Hanrahan – Pittsburgh – RHP

0 – 1,  1.78 ERA **  32 G, 30.1 IP,  23H,  0HR, 36 K,  20 BB  **  1.42 WHIP  .209 OP.AVG.

Lastings Milledge – Pittsburgh  -  OF – Bats R

3 HR  18 RBI  .292  ** 52 G,  195 AB,  19R,  57H, 32K,  11 BB,  5 SB **  .336 OBP  .390 SLG

********************************************

Tomorrow is WACKY WEDNESDAY and the Eric Hinske trade stats are updated. …(remember him?) …Eric told a Canadian newspaper he “hated it in Pittsburgh” before he had asked to be traded earlier this summer.

Morning Links Part 2

Bucs brass says winning still goal

www.tribune-democrat.com/.../local_story_271233016.html

Preview of Tonight's game

www.cbssports.com/.../MLB_20090929_PIT@CHC

THE PITTSBURGH PIRATES AND THE REVENUE-SHARING DEBATE

bizofbaseball.com/index.php

THE OFFICIALLY UNOFFICIAL PBC BLOGS AND MLB LINKS: Part 1

Bucs Dugout--Andy LaRoche Goes Berzerk

www.bucsdugout.com/.../andy-laroche-goes-berzerk

Why Gavs--Pirates 11 Dodgers 1

whygavs.com/.../game-155-pirates-11-dodgers-0.html

Pittsburgh Lumber Company--Duke, LaRoche Lead Pirates Over LA

mvn.com/.../duke-laroche-lead-pirates-over-la.html

Wilbur Miller's Pirate Player Profiles

users.rcn.com/.../pirateprofiles.htm

Raise the Jolly Roger-Not in Our House

raisethejollyroger.com/.../not-in-our-house-dodgers-1-pirates-11

Mondesi's House--JOHN RUSSELL MAKES MY HEAD HURT

mondesishouse.blogspot.com/.../john-russell-makes-my-head-hurt.html

Hyzdu Headquarters--Same Old Pirates

hyzduhq.blogspot.com/.../same-old-pirates.html

The Green Weenie--Big Blue Gets the Big Boot

oldbucs.blogspot.com/.../big-blue-gets-big-boot.html

THE OFFICIALLY UNOFFICIAL PBC BLOGS AND MLB LINKS: Part 2

PBC Home Page--Duke, LaRoche lead Bucs past Dodgers

PBC Home Page--LaRoche's career day sparks Bucs

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

PBC Home Page-Bucs hope to end road woes, finish strong

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

Rumbunter--Pirates Crush Dodgers 11-1; Cases of Champagne FedExed to San Diego

rumbunter.com/.../pirates-crush-dodgers-11-1-cases-of-champagne-fedexed-to-san-diego

Rumbunter-Freddy Sanchez: Thanks for Eliminating Pittsburgh from Your List

rumbunter.com/.../freddy-sanchez-thanks-for-eliminating-pittsburgh-from-your-list

MLB transactions

www.cbssports.com/.../transactions

Bucco Fans--Major League Baseball is a different world

www.buccofans.com/.../major-league-baseball-is-different.html

North Side Notch-This one Deserves a Recap

www.northsidenotch.com/.../this-one-deserves-recap.html

Fire John Russel--Russell pulls Duke from chance at milestone so he can hear fans clap

firejohnrussell.com/.../russell-pulls-duke-from-chance-at-milestone-so-he-can-hear-fans-clap

Considering.....

The Pirates put themselves in a position to spend their afternoon defending the manager following a 11-1 win....

That the commissioner has to spend the day refuting accusations that the club is managing it's finances inappropriately....

That the club president must deny that finances played a part i inexplicable pitching move, not to mention several other player related actions during the year such as trades, and benching......

All I can say is this.....

                     IT'S A CULTURE OF WINNING!

Srsly.

Holy Cow, the commish is in on the conspiracy too!

I'll bet the president is also part of it. I wonder if DK could get an interview with Obama so he could defend the Pirates use of money...

...not that it would do any good with this rabid fan base....

$$$$$  BODY WATCH – ATTENDANCE AT MLB PARKS $$$$$

Stats thru 9/28/09 …

NL Central update:  St.Louis and Milwaukee have exceeded 3 million in attendance;  Chicago and Houston have exceeded 2 million in attendance.  

30. Oakland……78 dates ** 1,361,099 tot  **  17,449 avg.

29. Florida…….78 dates ** 1,464,109 tot  **  18,770 avg.

28. PIRATES …..81 dates ** 1,577,853 tot  **   19,479 avg.

27. Cincinnati……75 dates ** 1,650,336 tot **    22,004 avg

26. Cleveland…..78 dates ** 1,749,370  tot  **   22,427 avg.

*****

2.   NY Yanks …….79 dates **3,627,608 tot   **  45,919 avg.

1.   LA Dodgers…...78 dates**3,601,611 tot  **   46,174 avg.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Apparently I missed some big fun around here yesterday.

On this Duke situation, there's no sinister plot by the evil Bob Nutting and his loyal henchman Frank the Tank and Neal the Heel to keep Zach's number of complete games down because that will help the Pirates' case in arbitration.  I'm sure the arbiter is not so clueless as to allow some random statistic (# of CG) to sway his ruling; I would certainly anticipate that he does a little more research into each case and could see that this move was made after Duke had pitched an incredible game.  

The decision was in the hands of the manager, that manager is not the sharpest bulb in the chandelier and he made an idiotic choice, then elected to try to defend that choice with an even more idiotic reason.      

So if Veal is doesn't do well the next time he pitches will JR say "Well, he might be a little tired. He threw 3 pitches on Monday afternoon"

Give me a break.  That is a lame excuse for taking Duke out --so Veal could get some work.  He threw 3 pitches!!  He faced one batter!

JR would have done himself a lot of good by just saying after the game " I screwed up and the fans had every right to boo me"

In re: Duke.

In a season that has been so dismal for both individual players and the team, it would seem that as a manager you would want to give a guy the opportunity to achieve something important to him and the team.

Pulling Duke out like that just guts any credibility he (JR) has with the team as far as creating an environment where they can all achieve the maximum for themselves and the team. I mean, as battered as the bullpen has been, getting a complete game gives the team a lift and them a break.

In re: Bud Selig.

If he is overseeing the PBC's (or anyone else's) finances the way he oversaw the use of steroids and HGH, then I have little confidence in what he says. Heck, a club could have Meyer Lansky or Bernie Madoff as their Chief Financial Officer and raise nary an eyebrow at the MLB Home Office.

Jose

1

DK - of course, if its off the record, it has to stay that way....Should we the reader just assume if its not a direct quote, its off the record?

My opinion is if one of the  off the record quotes came from FC, then its a smoke screen to deflect criticism that taking out Duke was done to help the team in arbitration.  The guy is a lawyer - his job is to spin whatever is necessary to help his team.   I cant believe that JR, a guy who's been in baseball for 20+ years and a former catcher (who would  be better than a catcher to know what a pitcher is feeling) would take out Duke one out from a complete game  and isnt near a tiring pitch count just to get an ovation.....There has to be more to it than that....If this is really how it went down - then JR isnt cut out to be a big league manager...

Hossy - you still out there?

Remember back around Sept 14 i posted a question: What do people want to see from PBC for balance of season?  At that point they had one TWO games during the first two weeks of Sept.  your response: Win just THREE games rest of month.  Well, they won four from that point.  That changes EVERYTHING.  ok buddy, I'll be mailing you your kool-aid.  may the force be with you.  it's clobberin' time.  (running out of cliches...you got any?)

AND THE MONTH'S NOT OVER.  You feelin' it, big guy?

I love the fact that everyone questions the Pirates moves.

They deserve to not be trusted.

Then the apologists come on here and say it is all conspiracy theorists.

I don't trust anything they do and never will until they write a check.

@money

"If there is no feedback or quotes from the FO (or, JR, etc), then they are hiding things and avoiding the media.  If they talk to the media, it is only all lies, BS and cliches

It's ok to be skeptical with the PBC... but please, not everything is a conspiracy to lie."

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Some people would get *** if Huntington called to wish them a happy birthday. They would say, "He is just trying to make me feel better for taking all my money".

Re: Selig

He has failed baseball in many ways, and he certainly panders to larger market teams, but he would really have nothing to gain by lying here. To save face? Not sure about that. He has come out in support of the Pirates' plan before. It is possible that he sees the "process" and believes in it.

Again, it does not matter what anyone says. Some people will always be irritated at something.

@ Demery: Funny how anyone who thinks that the PBC may be putting profit ahead of performance is labeled a "conspiracy theorist."  If you believe that The Plan is in effect, you are a "positive" person.

Putting profit first is a business plan, not a conspiracy.

Jose

2

"I don't trust anything they do and never will until they write a check."

You mean like the check they wrote to Pedro? Like the check they wrote to build the Latin America academy? Or the check they wrote to be in the top 5 in draft spending the last two years?

Which check are you referring to?

Or could it be you are referring to the check I believe they will write when they have a legitimate player that is legitimately worth keeping (not Wilson/Sanchez/Laroche, etc...) when they have a legitimate chance of contending (not when they are 3 games under .500 and about to be irrelevant).

Tell me, which check is it you are waiting for?

No need to stand on a grassy knoll, Moneytalks, to see that the commish's inputs are....to use a Western PA colloqialism...a bunch of baloney.  The numbers just don't support his case.

How can anyone shill with a straight face about the Pirates investing their money back into the franchise instead of their pockets?  Add up the $$ they crow about investing...$5 Million to the DR academy ($5 million every year?  I doubt it), an added $3 Million or so to the MLB draft, another $5 Million (generous without Sano?) to international talent...throw in another couple of million$ for beefed up scouting (no proof but we'll accept for sake of argument)...am I missing something?  Add it up and it is far less than the $20 Million they whacked from the payroll for next year and even more if you add in what would have been McLouth's salary for the two more years in 2011 and 2012.  And what exactly convinces you that the salary purges (the few they have left) won't continue?  Did we see the McLouth deal coming?  Want to take bets on Doumit surviving the entire 2010 season in Pittsburgh?

Selig's comments will soon be on the bottom of my bird's cage where they belong.    

Hey, they censored my post!

LOL

******2009 NL Rookie of the Year Race Watch******

“…and the rookies shall lead you out of THIS darkness.”   ( uhhhhh….maybe)

Alpha listing of everyday players …then 2 pitchers:

Stats through Sept.28:

Everth Cabrera – SS – San Diego – Bats: L/R

2 HR 31 RBI .260 ** 98 G, 362 AB, 57R, 94H, 85K, 44BB, 24 SB ** .343 OBP .365 SLG

Chris Coghlan – OF – “The Fish” – Bats: L

9 HR 44 RBI .315 ** 123 G, 482AB, 76R, 152H, 76K, 51BB, 7 SB ** .385 OBP .450 SLG

Dexter Fowler – OF – Colorado – Bats: L/R  

4 HR 33 RBI .267 **130 G, 415 AB, 69 R, 111H, 111K, 65BB, 27 SB **.366 OBP .407 SLG

Garrett  “The Legend” Jones – OF/1B – PIRATES – Bats: L

21 HR 44 RBI .305 ** 76 G, 292 AB, 42R, 89H, 72K, 37 BB, 10 SB ** .380 OBP .596 SLG

Andrew McCutcheon – CF – PIRATES – Bats: R

12 HR 54 RBI .286  ** 102 G, 413 AB, 69R, 118 H, 76K, 47 BB, 17 SB ** .358 OBP  .472 SLG

Casey McGehee – 3B – Milwaukee - Bats: R

15 HR 64 RBI .304 ** 111 G, 336 AB, 55R, 102H, 64K, 33BB, 0 SB ** .364 OBP .503 SLG

Gerrardo Parra – OF – Arizona – Bats: L

5 HR 59 RBI .291 ** 115 G, 440 AB, 57R, 128H, 86K, 24 BB, 5 SB ** .325 OBP .405 SLG

Colby Rasmus – OF – St.Louis – Bats: L

16 HR 51 RBI .254 **141 G, 452 AB, 70R, 115H, 91K, 32BB, 3 SB ** .307 OBP .416 SLG

Seth Smith – OF – Colorado – Bats: L

15 HR 53 RBI .294 ** 129 G, 326AB, 60R, 96H, 62K, 46 BB, 4 SB ** .380 OBP .515 SLG

Tommy Hanson – RHP – Atlanta

11 – 4   2.98 ERA ** 20 G, 120.2 IP, 100 H, 10HR, 107K, 44BB ** 1.19 WHIP  .227 OP.AVG

J. A. Happ – LHP - Philadelphia

11 - 4   2.79 ERA  ** 33 G, 158.1 IP, 136 H, 18 HR, 112K, 54 BB ** 1.20 WHIP .236 OP.AVG

*****************

7777777777777777777777

PS: Here’s the update on the rookie season of the ALMIGHTY Matt Wieters

Matt Wieters – C – Baltimore – Bats: L/R

8 HR  40RBI  .292 ** 90G, 329AB, 33R, 96H, 79K, 27 BB, 0 SB ** .345 OBP .416 SLG

7777777777777777777777

Cullen, you come on here and shout all you want.

I'm not going to acknowledge your post.

I suggest you do the same with mine.

Wow, lots of excitement around here.  I'm not buying into any grand conspiracy or anything.  What the JR pulling Duke move says to me though is that JR might not be the right manager for this team going forth.  That's not to say he didn't have a place over the last two seasons, just that things change.  I believe that the PBC is entering a new era and may need a new kind of leadership to drive these guys.  Pulling Duke showed a certain lack of baseball acumen.  Not sure we can afford that in the future.

@Dem

It seems that you  want the PBC to write the check that will make them into contenders. The fact is, there are few teams that can do that (see Yankees, Red Sox, Cardinals, Cubs, etc...). The Pirates cannot, and even if they could, they probably couldn't convince Lackey and Figgins to come play here.

Apologies for the shouting, but what is it exactly that you are wanting? It seems that you want the Pirates to spend like a large market team...

CullenH wrote re  the really really big one

"Then the apologists come on here and say it is all conspiracy theorists."

Well Demery, two years ago Nutting and McClatchy came forward and said that not one dollar of profits has been taken out of the team and paid to any partner in the form of a distribution.  They said that every dollar made has stayed with the team.  Coonelly reaffirmed that sentiment earlier this season.

Now Selig has said the same thing.  If you think they're all lying, that's certainly your opinion.  But don't blame me for thinking that you're a conspiracy theorist.

Man, I really hope a reporter asks Snell what he thinks about that idiotic move by JR yesterday.  Now that would be some interesting commentary. ;)

@ Dem again,

For a good example, look at Sabathia. The Indians knew were not going to be able to re-sign him, so they traded him (and got a haul) to the Brewers. They Brewers mortgaged part of their future (idiotically, IMHO) to get him and enter the playoffs for one year. When the Brewers went to re-sign him, they couldn't. They tried. They met the Yankees original offer (5 yrs, $100 mil??, if I remember...). Anyway, that didn't work, because the Yankees just put an extra $60 mil on the table. The Brewers wanted him, but he went to the Yankees a) for the money, and b) probably because he thought he would have a better chance of winning with the Yankees.

The Pirates are in the same ship as the Brewers here (and I admit, the Pirates could spend probably more than they do, though I don't know that for sure). It is very hard to convince free agents to come to markets such as, especially added to 17 years of losing.

One thing I am sure we agree on, is the nonsense of the "internal value" of a player. This is stupid, because you will never get a player because someone will always outbid you. I do cringe when I hear this...

Anyway, sorry again for the shouting, I'm not really a jerk in real life...

Good morning mates, good tidings

Its always exciting to come here and see what the next episode of the soap opera is with this team.  

To me the biggest sin that showed with JRs move yesterday is the total apparent lack of communication.  Why didn't he ask Zach what he wanted to do?

I'm hoping this is the beginning of the end for that fellow.

Brief explanation

Off the record means that what is said can not used except to go elsewhere for info.  To be off the record both sides much reach understanding before the interview.  For example, you can't say "I thought JR made a bad decision" and then say "by the way that was off the record"  too late

Then there is background.  Also agreement must be reached before the interview.  In background the reporter can  use the material but can't attribute it to a special person.  This is what happened when you read things like " a source told me the clubhouse is split into two factions."

Finally there is on the record where you can attribute to a source.  Part of that is quotations.

@Shane,

"Man, I really hope a reporter asks Snell what he thinks about that idiotic move by JR yesterday.  Now that would be some interesting commentary. ;)"

LOL, Im sure that Snell could find a way to make himself into the victim in this situation, even though it had nothing to do with him. Twould be a funny conversation...

"Why didn't he ask Zach what he wanted to do?"

Biz, I've been asking myself that since I saw Duke's comments.

@21,

re: Conspiracy theorists

Exactly.

Bud Selig has zero credibility.  Why didn't he point out that the only way the Brewers got competitive was that his daughter sold the team?

He's a buffoon.  Get Russell out of here, now.  Or at least at the end of the season.  Duke deserved, at the VERY least, one more batter.  It was a very obvious 'I'm the boss' move.

When any discussion turns to examine the nebulous word called "profits", it often becomes an exercise in nuance between the conversant parties.  

There are gross profits, and net profits,  and profits before dividends, and earnings before taxes and net income before special items, and on and on the terminology flows.  A conversation can take place between two parties with each one giving an honest answer and each answer being misunderstood by the other.  These types of conversations are often rife with deception.  Just ask any Hollywood agent who negotiates back end deals for his client which includes a "profits" provision.

So in Seligs case, his definition of profits may be quite different than DK's, Bob Nutting's, the PBC limited partners, or the MLB accountants.

Any conversation regarding the word "profits" must be long on detail and specifics and short on the assumption that you know what the other guy is saying.  

Every post that tends to blame the worlds ills on our FO and ownership has to be a conspiracy, no one else beleves it.

So now, those who see the light say that if you in the least are supportive of the direction the FO is undertaking to rebuild this franchise is now the ones who are in conspiracy, I missed that email.

www.youtube.com/watch

That's right Cave.  And that's one of the problems with the way Forbes reports profits, btw.  They report operating profits which, as you apparently know, is before interest expense, income taxes, and depreciation.  Granted, depreciation is a noncash expense but it does represent cash paid for capital improvemements.

If my math is correct I think the Bucs could finish 11-1 if they win the remaining games.  I hope they do it and feel good about themselves.  

But what if they do it, I don't want to hear how we've seen 'this group' come together and what the results could be.

They would be fooling themselves. There is work to be done.

In re: "Conspiracies." As I noted above, I think JR's action with Duke was wrong. How much of that decision was informed by an additioanl complete game aiding Duke in future hearings or not, I don't know.

Certainly, if that stat (complete games) is important in developing a "value" for a player, than it is not a long reach to think that preventing a complete game would aid management's position.

With all the goofy decisions JR has made, I have to be honest when I say that in my opinion, this was an inexplicable decision with an unintended consequence that could potentially benefit the PBC financially.

Jose

3

I just want to say off the record, that John Russell has to be one very disliked guy right now, by about everyone.  Players, fans, even the front office can't be thrilled for bringing the conspiracy discussion even into the picture, on a day that otherwise would have been greatly enjoyed.  

If he survives one week after the season ends, I'll be disgustingly surprised.

and while you were sleeping the Orioles lost #11 in a row and now stand 1/2 game behind the Pirates for the #2 draft choice  Orioles 60-96, Pirates 59-96

Jose, I agree that the decision to take Duke out is inexplicable, but how could this potentially benefit the PBC?  Hardly any cases go to arbitration and when they do, each side has a number that the 3 person arbitration panel picks from.

You think the decision  to remove Duke will have that much of an impact?

How happy is JR right now that there are no more home games? At the very least he should come out and say he screwed up, if not outright apologize to the fans that were in attendance.

I still can't get over that boneheaded decision. Way to tarnish one of the few bright spots in an otherwise dismal season. What an idiot.

JAL - re: moving up the ladder...GOOD.  imo, winning, like losing, is contageous.  Let the losers get Harper.  I'll take winning.

During an arbitration hearing wouldn't Duke's against bring up the fact that his client would (most likely) have had one more complete game victory if his manager didn't pull him in the bottom of the ninth with 2 outs and a 10 run lead?  And that there was no reason for him to be pulled (pitch count fine, health fine, etc..)

Traveling today, off for a bit.  Enjoy the conspiracy everyone!

Folks, what would one expect the budmeister to say in response to DKs questions?

I'm not saying he fibbed, or saying he was truthful, the budmeister is a con man, and would say what is politically correct regardless.

A couple of thoughts though, I find it hard to believe that the PBC hasn't made profits these past couple of years (and I apologize ahead of time as I don't read the articles till I get home from work)

Second is IMO JR had no alterior motive with the Duke move, he's just an incompetent manager with no real relationship with the players.  Doing it for a reason like discussed is giving that fellow far too much credit (well, uh, you know..... its tough to win when they score more runs than we do.....)

Biz, this is from the article.

"What everyone would want from such an interview -- and I am well aware of this -- is whether or not the Pirates' ownership is pocketing profits. Selig must have told me seven or eight times that this is not the case and that he knows it not to be the case beyond any doubt by having looked at the books himself. No hesitation, no wavering, no hedging."

That's not just being politically correct.  That's being definitive.  Whether or not he's lying, I have no idea.

@ John Lease: "Bud Selig has zero credibility.  Why didn't he point out that the only way the Brewers got competitive was that his daughter sold the team?"

Selig's folks built the current team with some really good draft years, then when those guys were beginning to make noise in the upper minors (and the new stadium didn't hurt) they sold the team to Attanasio.  They got near top value.  

They learned that small-cap teams have a much more difficult time building a durable winner.  And after one year in the playoffs, it's getting near rebuild time - their pitching is a mess, several of their players aren't performing as expected and Fielder is getting close to a big payoff - can you see him in a Cubs uni on a day at Wrigley with the wind blowing out?  Or in a Yankees uni with their short fences?  

@ 21: That is why I am saying that potentially this is an unintended consequence. The decision itself is so goofy that it almost begs belief. You thererefore have to wonder what is going through JR's mind to cause him to take the ball and give it to Veal.

Perhaps JR has just lost the plot completely.

Jose

4

I can see it now--Duke ended yesterday's game with ERA of 3.94.  An under 4 ERA is a good bargaining point.  Duke now has the 25th best ERA in the NL.  So JR leaves him in and he gives up 3 more runs, pushing his ERA over 4.  Now the talk is all about how the team left him to push his ERA up so they could pay him less :)

"You thererefore have to wonder what is going through JR's mind to cause him to take the ball and give it to Veal."

Absolutely.

(sorry to mention the other paper)

Joe Starkey has a column up about the JR situation.

He said that a former player told him yesterday that he would have been tempted to fight JR if he tried to take the ball from him.

I think Guisti and the Candy Man were signing autographs yesterday....along with another old-timer that I can't think of.

This line from the story might sum it all up:

'Back in his office, Russell seemed oblivious to the fallout that would accompany his move.  "I guess it's a story," he said.'

Hello DK, I'm an advid reader but infrequent commenter.  I love your coverage of my beloved Bucs and I love the content on this blog.  I don't post much because quite frankly I find itirritating as heck reading the comments.  Your comment section has been absolutely hijacked by 5 or 6 trolls who take any and all comments made as an opportunity to bash the front office and Nutting.  Nothing wrong with not trusting the front office but enough of the "Ground Hog's Day" gone wrong act!  These trolls would have been banned from any other blog by now but for some reason the remain on board at the PG and prevent other people, like myself, from participating in intelligent discussion regarding the PBC.

Anyway, the point I wanted to make in this post is that I am disappointed to see you pandering to this crowd.   Why bring up the money issue when this was clearly a baseball move, albeit and ridiculously insane baseball move?

DK-"A final point: I raise Duke's arbitration status in that piece only because I knew -- and I mean knew -- it would come up, just as financial issues always will follow the Pirates until they spend more."

That doesn't cut it!  Let it be brought up an then address it.  All you did was add fuel to the fire and it completely overshadowed the terrific games Laroche and Duke had.  Why this upsets me is simple, next year we are expected to pay to read the content of this blog.  If this is the type of coverage I can expect going forward I will seriously reconsider paying to register with the PG on line.  I don't expect unbiassed commenting from the trolls in the comment section but I expect more from you.  Your work in the past is what has set that bar so high.  

A couple of points.....

1. JR really screwed the pooch on pulling Duke even if his intentions were pure.

2. @Jose - - I'm not calling Bud a liar, but my first thought was also about how he either was so incompetent that he didn't know how wide-spread PEDs were in baseball or he flat out lied about it in an attempt to save face. But that doesn't mean that he isn't telling the truth about the PBC money trail.

3. What a way to go out at home. As someone else put it, it is just like golf in that you can have a horrible round going and get that one par or birdie which keeps you coming back. This series and the one against the Phillies were our birdies.

This episode really isn't "typical Pirates".  If it was 'typical',JR would have pulled Duke and we would have blown the 10 run lead and lost the game.   Maybe the glass is half full :-)

Bizrow,

I think you're pretty much spot on.   You'll see that all involved do indeed acknowledge a profit is being made but they state that the amount of that profit is grossly overstated and the dollars are indeed being reinvested into the organization.

As for Russell, I so want him to succeed but I think you may be right.  He seems, at least from what I can ascertain via the media, to have virtually no connection to the players. That both surprises and sadens me since he was a player and you'd think he gets that.  

I wonder if the fallout from yesterday's decision, more internally than externally, could give the FO reason to reconsider their stated support and seriously contemplate a change.  

Someone had a good point earlier in that JR was a catcher and he should be well aware of the importance of a complete game to a pitcher.

With that,  I must admit that I posted quite a bit about this topic.

I laugh and shake my head when I think that about the fact that we are debating the facts about a complete game.  Duke got the win.  The Pirates won.  Maybe we should just try to be happy with that an move on.   I am, I'm out.

Heillo...JAL makes a good point.  If JR had left Zach in and he gave up a couple of more runs, folks here would be crucifying him for that.  Basically JR is in a no -win situation with a lot of folks.

What's sad is that the rest of Duke's great outing is being overshadowed, as is Andy's 5 for 5 day.  And there were a couple of great defensive plays too, that I saw watching the replay (there were some muffs too, but at least it didn't hurt them).  MLBN didn't even bring up Duke getting pulled in the 9th on their recap of the game.  

@ DK - might you have any information on Kerrigan's informing JR's decision to pull Duke?  Does "Dave Kerwin" usually have such input?

Good morning all - I haven't been around for a while.... a combination of being VERY busy at work where I typically read and post on the Blog and my general distaste for the Pirates performance which leads to me avoid all things related to a team for a little while. Like I have a hard time reading the PG story to story after a Steeler loss. Just never been able to do it well....

Anyway, I wanted to comment on LaRoche's performance... it reminds of when we picked up Jason Bay in the Giles trade and played him the rest of the 2003....he was mostly unremarkable until that HUGE 2 HR, 7 RBI game toward the end of another meaningful season. Everything came together for him the following year after being an older "25" year old rookie who never really made an impression before that.

If yesterday's performance is somewhat of a harbinger of half of what Bay has become, we can feel a little better about that trade

Not that I'm not thoroughly enjoying all of the JR talk, but has anyone noticed how similar LaRoche's numbers are to McLouth's?  

It just makes me realize how much perception plays into one's opinion.  LaRoche is looked at a failure and has been widely criticized for a lack of offensive production yet McLouth has put up vitutally the same numbers and his departure is still mourned.  I understand that there are varying reasons for that mourning but, once again, they're producing virtually the same numbers and LaRoche is a better fielder at his position, IMO.

Just found it interesting.  Oh, and if you disagree, well, Nutting made me say it.

"I don't expect unbiassed commenting from the trolls in the comment section but I expect more from you"

But Slick, unbiased is exactly what Dejan achieved, IMO, by bringing up the money aspect.  I would think being unbiased means you bring up all possible angles to a story instead of selective ones.

I've read a couple places now that said Duke didn't get an ovation when he came off the mound, and that's flat-out wrong. Perotto, a dude from the trib... Were those guys there? Because Duke got one hell of an ovation with some DUUUUKEs thrown in. The crowd booed Russell on his way to and from the dugout but cheered wildly as Duke made the walk. The least they can do is report it accurately, no matter what they think of Russel's decision.

@ Comet - hadn't thought about Laroche's performance in those terms, but yesterday I posited that the offense stats of one of MLB's great 3B, Brooks Robinson, were lifetime .267/.322/.401.  These are not particularly great numbers, but it was Brooks' defensive play that won the accolades he received.  Andy has already shown exceptional ability on defense, far better than was advertised.  If he's half the teammate that Brooks was, he's going to be an asset for years to come.  

DK,  I actually feel sorry for you.  You report on a great interview with Bud Selig and all that dominates the blog is JR's move in the ninth.

I really enjoyed the info & insight from Bud.  Great work!

DK- thanks for the continuing keystone [ironic] coops baseball executives comedy tour. keep it coming. 'splainin' the unexplainable and undefendable.

many have often commented here on the humor that arises when the buc FO begin to FOspeak and spin, but you really understand what novices they are when the king of korn BUD LIGHT takes the mic on record. like asking the former head of merrill-lynch to comment on enron, or ask the head of GM about why american motors did so 'well'. BUD has NO credibility for anyone who loves baseball. he obviously has some credibility to an elite group of selfish monkeybusinessmen and women [are they any in the 'club?] who ask him to shill for them. puh-thetic. after bart G I imagine the laws of physics take over and we'll have years of this weasel to balance out a genuine agent of care for the sport.

Better

Not that I'm not thoroughly enjoying all of the JR talk, but has anyone noticed how similar LaRoche's numbers are to McLouth's?  

___________________________

Nate was one of my favorite players, but facts are facts.

I think Andy actually has a higher upside than Nate does.

For his 1st year his numbers are not all that bad.

If he can come out of the gate good in the Spring, he might be able to keep Pedro on the farm for a little bit longer, that would benefit Pedro a lot and run up Andy's trade value.

If I were Walker, I would have gone to winter ball this year and learned 2nd base, an athlete with good fielding skills can learn that position pretty quick.  

@Slick - With your 9 posts on this blog ever, I'm surprised that you found this a worthwhile reason to post.  Shouldn't you get back to running this team, Mr. Huntington?

DK - You had to go there with that article because we were already talking about it. Heck, I posted it on here minutes after the game ended and before your article.  To have ignored that possibility, however slim, would have been irresponsible. And with this franchise and this ownership group, while I don't think it was a conspiracy, I don't think it is beneath these guys by any stretch.

@ Comet,

I had a thought similar to yours. I had forgotten how average Bay looked a lot of the time during his first year here in Pgh. but I do remember the skewering the FO was taking for trading Giles for him.

I had the thought yesterday that IF LaRoche can come in next year after one full year in the league and hit near .280-.290 with 15-20 HRs and 80+ RBIs, then the trading of Bay for him and the others would turn out to be a fairly good trade.

And if Pedro is just raking, you have a really good trading piece or maybe a really solid option at 2B if DY isn't working out.

@leadoff - I think expectations are much, much different when comparing a corner OF spot with a CF.  If Any were the 2B on this team, your point is extremely well taken.  But not at 3B.  Which is why he should be working out with DY at 2nd.

Frank Coonelly's Chicago Political Machine stole the 1960 presidential election for John F. Kennedy.

@ Wozz & Zisk

I checked your link yesterday (thanks for that) and while Brooks' career numbers are average, he did put up some REALLY great seasons, like hitting .310 w/ 28 HRs and 118 RBIs in 1964, I think...I believe we would ALL agree if Laroch put up a season like that, his perception would be greatly altered and would start looking for Chase Utley money PARTICULARLY if you he is moved to 2nd base.

Regarding DK's observations on the "financial aspect" of Duke's removal - I have an issue with it, for the same reasons I have an issue with those reporters who have allowed the claims of the birthers (ie those who believe that Obama's presidency is illegitimate because he's not a citizen) to influence their reporting.  

Beliefs are not always related to fact.  I may believe some outlandish stuff and bring it incessantly to a blog, but it doesn't mean it has to - or even should - be taken seriously.  The proper place to deal with it is not in the reporting realm, but in the editorial end of the news.  

IMO and no offense to anyone, but as far as our future is concerned, JRs actions or lack there of, are much more important than a win or an individual performance.

Re -  wonder if the fallout from yesterday's decision, more internally than externally, could give the FO reason to reconsider their stated support and seriously contemplate a change

I certainly hope so BetterDaysComing, this is ridiculous

@21 -ok, politically definitive ; }, but its still from the budmeister, the one that brought us home field advantage for the all star game, and performance enhancing drugs

Bucco

I think expectations are much, much different when comparing a corner OF spot with a CF.  If Any were the 2B on this team, your point is extremely well taken.  But not at 3B.  Which is why he should be working out with DY at 2nd.

__________________________

I said he had a higher upside in my estimation, that would mean that I think Andy will get better at his position than Nate would at his position.

I did not say his numbers for his first year were numbers that we would be looking for in the future.

I do believe he will get better with the bat when the lineup becomes more settled and he hits in the same spot more often, also when they get some players around him that can hit.

leadoff,

If he can avoid those absolutely horrid stretches that seem to be a LaRoche family trait, then his overall numbers will be quite nice.

I went back and looked at first year numbers for a few other third sackers and LaRoche actually compares quite favorably.  Jeff King for example was horrid and didn't blossom into a power hitter until his late 20's.  Same with Casey Blake.  Time will tell and I'm still hoping for more from the Bay trade but I think LaRoche has shown some real progress as the year has progressed.  He looks more like a complete player now than he did three months ago.

Better

I went back and looked at first year numbers for a few other third sackers and LaRoche actually compares quite favorably.  Jeff King for example was horrid and didn't blossom into a power hitter until his late 20's.  Same with Casey Blake.  Time will tell and I'm still hoping for more from the Bay trade but I think LaRoche has shown some real progress as the year has progressed.  He looks more like a complete player now than he did three months ago.

___________________________

I know this is thinking way ahead, but I keep looking at LaRoach as a guy we will trade, maby even as early as next year. Therefore how we did in the Bay trade may hinge on how well we do in LaRoach trade of the future.

Also, I have not given up on Moss, I think he is a good ballplayer, did not play all year this year, being brought along a little slower than LaRoach, but someone that could blossom in the near future.

"but has anyone noticed how similar LaRoche's numbers are to McLouth's? "

Better Days,

While Andy's RISP is tolerable at .275/.355, Nate's is .348/.442.

"@21 -ok, politically definitive ; }, but its still from the budmeister, the one that brought us home field advantage for the all star game, and performance enhancing drugs"

Let's be fair.  He also brought us the Wild Card, interleague play which most like, and attendance has been good with him as Commish.  And I think he's getting way too much blame for performance enhancers.  He deserves the same amount as the owners, union, players, and the fans.

But don't misunderstand me.  I want him replaced, but mostly because I don't think he presents a good image for the game.

leadoff,

Yes, I think we've discussed Moss before.  I, too, would like to see him get more time.  Of all the things I could criticize JR for, the handling of Moss could be at the top of my personal list.  They may see things with their professional eye that I can't but I just never felt that he had the chance to get on track.  

If this was posted earlier, sorry, some SaNo news

masnsports.com/.../is-sano-saga-finally-nearing-e.html

@ Juniata: DK's report did note that Duke got an ovation, so I am not sure whose reports you are referring to...

Jose

5

I coached HS basketball for years and always pulled seniors out one at a time at the end of the last home game if the game was under control.  I think his heart may have been in the right place.  Seems like the error in judgement was not leaving the choice up to Duke.  Either way, this shouldn't overshadow a complete clubbing of a playoff team.

I have more of an issue with all the times JR didn't argue bad calls.  Sometimes being "laid back" comes across as not standing up for your guys.  Sure there are times to keep things calm and no, umpires won't change their calls anyway, but every once in a while you have to let go a bit just to make a point. Say what you want about McClendon... you always knew he was going to make his point.

Say what you want about McClendon... you always knew he was going to make his point.

=============================

Or take a base.  Either one.

I decree that, because of Andy's day yesterday, the Bay trade is a success.

No arguments to the contrary.  None will be accepted.

@ Why: While I could take issues with the sample size, Andy deserves to have a day like yesterday. He has worked hard all year. If he keeps it up, I won't be able to call him Lil Stonehenge anymore!

Jose

6

Lets see, the CEOs of the smoking industry before congress said: Cigarettes Do Not cause cancer... LIAR!!

We gave billions to the banking industry to have those assets be distributed into the economy, Not Done... LIAR!!

We invaded Iraq because they had weapons of mass destruction... LIAR!!

Clinton, I did not have sex with that woman quote to us on national tv... LIAR!!!

WHATEVER YOU SAY Mr Selig. I am sure you have the Pirates fan base of priority interest. I am sure if profits were before a quality product, you would have stirred up that can of worms publically expressing that honest opinion.

Please Mr. Selig, go away. Just let me suffer alone with my fellow kool-aide drinkers, or like me being force fed the kool-aide fluids.

This season could not have been any worse is my humble watched about 85-90 games on tv opinion.

David

@ Jose

Good thing you didn't try and make an argument to the contrary!  And I agree, he has worked really hard this year and it looked like he was going to have really great season when he was hitting .300 in June, and then July and August came around and they were tough months for him.

Question....

If Andy finishes with 13 or 14 (or maybe even 15...it could be some sort of LaRoche mythical power streak...we all know these exist, don't deny it) HRs and a .260 avg, would his 1st FULL season in the majors be considered a success?

Put Neil Walker in!

@21

WIld Card good, Interleague play good concept, unfortunately New York, Chicago, Boston, LA get to run the schedule, while we get Detroit, Minnesota, White Sox, Royals it seems all the time, so very poor implementation.  The original plans were a rotation, I think, similar to what the NFL does, that would be great, every 6 years or so, you'd get a chance to see every team

Regarding drug use, either budmeister knew or he is totally clueless, I think he had to know, but thats IMO.  He's the boss, he's most responsible

Yes, time for him to move on

The huge difference between McLouth's numbers and Andy's is the consistency.

McLouth has hit between .250 and .270 every month this year.

Andy hits .200 for stretches on end, and then .330-.350 for a significant chunk of games.

Consistency is certainly worth something, but if Andy can just minimize his down spiral, he can be a very good player. It seems his good stretches are too long to say they are just flukes.

File this away for 2011...I know I am:

"I'm going to be right about this. When Alvarez and those other players get there, and that franchise is a success again, on and off the field, ask me again in a couple years, and you'll be able to say that Bud was right."

I hate to say this but Bud is going to look like a fool.  Again.  Just like he has with the whole steroid/HGH scandal, just like he did with making the All Star game determine home field advantage for the World Series and I could go on but I think I'll stop while I am ahead.

MLB needs to MANDATE revenue sharing is spent on the ML roster, period.  It should be the TEAMS responsibility to use the revenue from ticket sales/concessions/advertising/etc. if they want to draft or go to other countries and build facilities.

The Pirates (and all other benefactors of revenue sharing) are now allowed to "explain it away" by pointing to the draft and/or other signings (like the 5 figures recently given to that pitcher that had exactly ONE pitch).  There is no requirement for them to upgrade their ML roster in anyway.

So when we see a $30M payroll going into 2010, just remember that.  And don't complain, because MLB allows the Pirates to do so.

Mark

Consistency is certainly worth something, but if Andy can just minimize his down spiral, he can be a very good player. It seems his good stretches are too long to say they are just flukes.

____________________________

Maturity has something to do with that, Andy is not necessarily as mature as Nate or as Nate was his first full year.

I don't know if Andy will get a full year next year, but I think if he does, he will be better than he was this year.

If you put a better team around him, that growth would be acceptable.  

@Jose,  Lil Stonehenge?!?  LOL...how did I miss that?

@PiratesFan aka david, you've been living in SF too long.

@WhyDidn'tI, IMO, yes.  But, jury will be out for a loooong time on the Bay trade.  :-0

PiratesFanSInce1960 -

Except the people that did lie there in your examples (the tobacco industry and Clinton) had a direct reason for lying to protect their interests.

What reason does Selig have to risk lying in this instance?

BTW, Bush didn't lie when he said Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. He was WRONG, but didn't lie. And the US bailed out the banks to avoid the collapse of the financial system. Not so they could make a bunch of bad loans again to restart the disaster.

one thing I would like to say about all this is that Duke showed a lot of class by not making a scene on the mound,or in the dugout. Some pitchers would have really tried to show up the manager. Duke has shown a lot of class all along so I guess its no surprise but I'm sure it must have taken a lot of self control.

A few years ago the big controversy was how a lot of the players ignored the fans after the last game. I asked this earlier today but got no response. Was there any interaction between the fans and players after the game?

I'm thinking Andy's good day has increased his trade value this off season.

You know there will be trades this off season ; }

joe,

What is the Bucs, or any other team for that matter,  are mandated to spend $18mm on the ML roster and there are no FA's that fit their needs nor any that would command the dollars you have available?  Are they then forced to throw good money away on bad players?    That just drives up prices and exacerbates an already bad situation.

I think the current system, as long as no cap is in place, works best.  It allows teams to determine their own future.  If done properly, the restocking of a system eventually produces a better ML product.  A better ML product sells more tickets and generates ancillary revenue greater than what revenue sharing does.  Ownership makes more money that way, if that is truly their motivation.   Barring a cap, this is the best approach IMO.

I didn't see this posted, DeShawn Stevenson of the Washington Wizards now has a backwards Pirates logo tattoo on his cheek.

www.truthaboutit.net/.../deshawn-stevensons-new-tattoos-and-abe-lincoln.html

Mark, how did I know you were a republican?

@BetterDays,

Your assumption is self-fulfilling, in that you're saying there WOULD be a FA market where the players weren't worth what they were asking.

I'm saying, as the agreement is constructed, the Pirates could have a $1M ML payroll and nothing could be done to them if their revenue sharing was all spent in the draft/minor leagues.

Would that be acceptable to you as a fan?  

I don't disagree that if you're not Boston/New York, you need to go that route (building through the draft).  But you cannot just continue to either cut the heart and soul out of your team either every time it comes time to pay them.

Biz

You know there will be trades this off season ;

__________________________

I certainly hope so, I don't like the FA market other than possibly finding a bullpen pitcher or two.

Call me Neal Leadoff, I ready to deal.

@ BetterDays: During the off-season I called our infield "The Easter Island Infield" with Big Stonehenge (Adam) & Lil Stonehenge (Andy). So named as they just (especially Adam) remain completely expressionless and didn't move around much.

Jose

7

I think there may be a FA that fills a glaring need - just realized that Felipe Lopez, Brewers 2B, is a FA after this season.  Switch-hitter, leadoff guy, good (if inconsistent) fielder, consistent .300 avg.  He solidified their IF after Weeks went down, and was a reliable performer.  

He's making $10 mill this season, and will likely command at least $12-15 mill, but he just turned 30 and his cost wouldn't break the bank.  Htis may be a reasonable FA pick-up, if there are any.  

Mark,

Bush lied his *** off. He had the preliminary reports from Hans Blix that were categorically stating that Iraq had been cooperating, they hadn't found anything that wasn't left over from the first Gulf War and even the intel was inconclusive at best in support of the statements that he made as hard facts.

You really picked the wrong example to use to try to make your case.

Wozzle

I think there may be a FA that fills a glaring need - just realized that Felipe Lopez, Brewers 2B, is a FA after this season.  Switch-hitter, leadoff guy, good (if inconsistent) fielder, consistent .300 avg.  He solidified their IF after Weeks went down, and was a reliable performer.  

He's making $10 mill this season, and will likely command at least $12-15 mill, but he just turned 30 and his cost wouldn't break the bank.  Htis may be a reasonable FA pick-up, if there are any

__________________________

We can trade and get a 30 Hr. hitter for around 5mil, that is somewhere around 27 I believe. Why not go that route?

Wozzle,

Did you just say that a guy that is an inconsistent fielder with no power, no ability to steal a base (0-3) and was paid $10M is now worth $12-15M?

@Zisk

I certainly don't want to discuss politics here, but since you don't know what you're talking about please read this

www.pbs.org/.../blix_12-19.html

HANS BLIX: "But the more disturbing, I think, is that on the chemical weapons program and the biological weapons program, we have not received the assurance -- above all not the evidence -- to allow us to rule out that they still keep weapons of this kind."

HANS BLIX: "And hence, our conclusion is that one cannot have the confidence that the weapons are gone."

@ leadoff: Curiousity impels me to ask: Trade what to get this 27 yr old, 30 HR hitter?

Curiously,

Jose

8

Mark,

And how exactly do you know Bush was just dumb instead of being a liar?  Did you serve in his cabinet?

And "if" he did lie he definitely had an interest, correcting a mistake his father made.

www.baseball-reference.com/.../lopezfe01.shtml

Anyone feel that Felipe Lopez roided up good in 2005?  Data sure supports that.

And if he's getting 10 million, that's at least 7 million too much for anyone other than the Yankees.

Excuse me folks but this is baseball blog, not a politic blog.  Plenty of places on the web to discuss politics.

Ooh, the very wormy Austin Kerns apple will be a FA too, anyone want a bite of that?

www.baseball-reference.com/.../kearnau01.shtml

Anyone?  Buhler?

Jose,

Genius.  Very funny.

@ InZisk -  I'm looking at 2B as our most glaring need - we have others.  With Lopez, we're talking inconsistent in the MLB sense, not the AA sense.  Lopez can turn a double play without making it look like the Flying Wallendas.  He has good range, is a consistent .300 hitter, and can lead off if necessary.  I think our pitchers-to-contact would appreciate having him there.  And I believe he's the only FA who does us any good at a position of (IMO dire) need.

@ leadoff - I assume you're talking Uggla?  What would he cost in a trade?  I'm looking at the Pirates - they can afford to spend some money, not sure they can afford to lose any of their better players.  I have no doubt that either Ohlie or Duke would be a demand.  And Uggla's defense is, to be kind, not so good.  

Just spitballin', as it were, but I'd love to see us solid up the middle.  I like Cedeno and Cutch, can accept Doumit for now, but 2B is a challenge.

Jose

Trade what to get this 27 yr old, 30 HR hitter?

________________________

Fair question? He is a 2nd basemen.

Anytime you make a trade it would help to know what the other team would take, since I am not the one that would handle negotiations, lets just use my opinions for now.

We have available for trade:

1. Doumit

2. Duke

3. LaRoach

4. Young

5. Pierce

6. Karstens

7. Moss

8. Maholm

9. Cedano

10. Milledge

11. Capps

12. McCutcheon, pitcher

13. Meek

14. Chavez

15. Diaz

16. Jarmillio

17. Anyone in the minor league system except Pedro and Sanchez.

Trade one, a combination of more than one, a combination of more than one in return, keeping in mind the other team wants to trade to avoid arbitration. They would be the Marlins, always seem to have a lot of talent laying around.

"He's the boss, he's most responsible"

Biz,

You're saying the Commissioner is more responsible for the players using banned substances than the players themselves, the owners, and the players' union?

Wozzle

I assume you're talking Uggla?  What would he cost in a trade?  I'm looking at the Pirates - they can afford to spend some money, not sure they can afford to lose any of their better players.  I have no doubt that either Ohlie or Duke would be a demand.  And Uggla's defense is, to be kind, not so good.  

________________________

This would be true, he is getting 5+mil right now, has 2 years left before FA.

His defense is not that good, but don't we have until we don't have the best infield coach going.

Defense was not our problem last year, hitting is, guys that can't/don't hit to me are expendable.

Duke on his best day is a 3 sometimes actually a 4 or 5. to me that is an expendable pitcher.

joerevs,

What I'm saying is that by forcing teams to spend in certain ways then you place them in a position of buying square pegs for round holes.  As a fan, I would prefer that my management team be able to spend where they see fit and address the club's needs in the way that best suites them and the organization.  

As for your example of the $1mm payroll, that's obviously an extreme but I understand the point you make.  Let's look at it in realistic terms and say payroll is $18mm.  If I see what the organization is looking to accomplish and I see talent on the cusp of making it to the majors with the next year or so then, yes, I'm okay with a very low payroll.  And I'm not viewing the Bucs as that example.  I'm thinking more along the lines of what the Brewers did a few years back and the Marlins do every few years.  I would also want the organization to commit to those players when they do make it to the bigs and perform as expected.

I just don't see the value in spending tens of millions of dollars just to win ten more games in a season when I know those players aren't going to be a part of my success two years later.  To clarify, I don't think that's necessarily wrong either.  I just would be okay with the opposite approach as a fan.  

Just another approach, Joe.

Wow, Russell's winning percentage as a manager is pretty bad.  Only 4 guys who managed at least one full season's worth of games have lower.

Guy Hecker of the 1890 Pirates was 23-113 for a .169%  Somehow that was his only year...

Fred Haney of the 53-55 was 163-299 for a .353%  Later did well as manager of the Braves AND in his TV career on Green Acres(must I say that last was a joke?)

Bobby Bragan of the 56-57 Pirates was 102-155 .397% tied with Russell.  His most famous incident was drinking an orange drink while arguing with an umpire, it got him fired.  Unlike JR, he knew how to walk out onto the field.

And finally Nixey Callahan of the 1916-17 Pirates was 85-129 .397% also is tied with Russell.  But a cool nickname like Nixey.

Of course, Russell might vault upward if he can just win a few more.

wozzle,

I agree about second base but I would also suggest that we have a potential solution for that problem with LaRoche and Walker.  I would love to see AL get some time there and see if his range would translate to that spot.  I would look to do the same with PRNW.  

If Alvarez is the man at 3B then let's start planning for that.  I could live with an infield of Jones, LaRoche, Cedeno and Alvarez.  The problem is what to do at third until PA arrives.

Where's Jim Morrison when you need him?

@ leadoff - Don't want Milledge on the list, I believe he's a keeper.  And if Cedeno or LaRoche, we're now looking at even greater needs at SS or 3B. Bixler and Walker, IIRC?  Phew...

I'd give up Duke for Uggla even up, but then we're struggling for another LH starter.  Rudy Owens isn't ready for another year or two.  

Maybe we let Delwyn "develop" at 2B next year.  

DK - Thank you for calling Mr. Sellig. It is the sign of an enterprising reporter to make the "long shot" call and try to get the readers' questions answered in print.

As I read it, I could predict the comments on here. Some of you are just, well, sad.

I'm still enjoying the hell out of the last two games of the year, saw both, blessed to be there.

Let's go BUCS!

@ Better Days - I'm not convinced that LaRoche should be moved with his rather limited range and the bazooka hanging off his right shoulder.  A good 3B is a very valuable asset.  

Of course, last year at this time I was wondering how in blazes PBC was going to get a pitching staff...

JAL,

I realize this is a baseball blog but if you had just allowed it to play out you'd have found that Nutting has the WMD's thus the baseball connection would be made.

Thanks though.

Wozzle

I'd give up Duke for Uggla even up, but then we're struggling for another LH starter.  Rudy Owens isn't ready for another year or two.  

________________________

Power is the greatest need in baseball, you can find pitching, you can get a veteran left hander. There are not many positions on the Pirates team that can't be filled rather easily.

In Pittsburgh we have a habit of overrating our players, we are not likely to get a 30 hr. guy with one player and if you are talking about the Marlins, they have a history of wanting prospects, which now we have, we can afford to part with a couple of them.

Where did you get $10M from?  Lopez is making $3.5M this year (which makes sense).

sports.espn.go.com/.../profile

Better days

Just echoing what Dejan has has posted several times :)

@ Plenty of hope

What's sad exactly?  Are you saying you believe a man who has lead baseball through it's one of it's worst ever scandals and claims to have had no idea what was going on?  

Of course he's going to stand behind Nutting, they're all in this to make as much money as possible.

Personally I think it's sad anyone believes the line of bull we're being fed.  It's entirely possible that NH and FC are trying to put together a winning team within the confines they've been given, but until this team makes a decision that involves them spending MORE money instead of LESS then we've got to question their motives at every turn.

Yes, the Pirates have spent more money on drafts and the Dominican, but they've saved at last that amount of money through trades the past two years.  Notice Bud doesn't say anything about that.

Wozzle

I'm not convinced that LaRoche should be moved with his rather limited range and the bazooka hanging off his right shoulder.  A good 3B is a very valuable asset.  

____________________________

I agree that Laroach is a 3rd basemen, that is what he is cut out for.

I am not for moving LaRoach, I am tired of experimenting. Bring in some proven young talent. Anyone can play 2nd base if all your talking about is catching a few ground balls and taking throws at 2nd base, not very hard, but other elements of the game are more difficult and take time.

wozzle,

I hear you.  So much depends on what the FO assessment is of Jones IMO.

From the handfull of games I saw with Jones in RF, he just doesn't seem to have the arm to play out there.  Plus, Tabata is the guy it would appear.  So, Jones is locked in at first.  Alvarez is coming and he'll be at third so AL is either dealt or needs to learn a new position.  Second is our biggest hole in the IF and he's the only candidate.  They have a year to figure it out.

Nice problem to have though.  Many decent options for too few spots.  Who'd have thunk it?

JAL,

I understand.  Just having fun.  ;-)  Appreciated you stepping in.

Almartin

Yes, the Pirates have spent more money on drafts and the Dominican, but they've saved at last that amount of money through trades the past two years.  Notice Bud doesn't say anything about that.

______________________________

Yes but they are losing money at the gate, Bud did not say anything about that either.

"What reason does Selig have to risk lying in this instance?"

    @ MARK IN DALLAS     I think you are right , just like Bush i think Selig is just ignorant.

@leadoff

And why are they losing money at the gate?

@21 - drug use

Yeah, I guess I am saying that he and Fehr are most responsible, they had to know and the players??  IMO one thought it was ok, because someone else was doing it.

FSF, you're correct - that was his total contract.  My bad...

But it's even better for PBC.  I like Lopez, having had the chance to see him here in Milwaukee fairly frequently.  I really think he and Cedeno would be a quality middle infield.  And although I'm impressed as hell at what Delwyn has attempted, it's become pretty obvious that he couldn't keep up the effort throughout a season.  

almartin

The money saved on the trades will not show up until the off-season.  Not like they could pick up an FA in mid-season.  They had already paid a portion of the salaries they traded away.

Better days

Thank you :)

Just a comment on the Brooks Robinson comparison. Robinson played much of his career in a dead ball era when batting averages all over the game were low. His numbers were good for the era; not quite so great today in a high offense era.

No problem Wozzle.

I'm not so sure about Lopez.  This was his first season as an above-average offensive player, and his defense leaves a bit to be desired (certainly a downgrade from Freddy).

I agree re: DY.  I think he makes for a very useful utility player/pinch hitter, in that although he's not a very good fielder, his versatility alone makes him valuable, and he's a nice option as a bat off the bench, particularly against lefties.

@ Better & leadoff: Much as I would like to solve the 2B issue with Uggla, I just can't see a trade to shore up 2B doing anything but causing a problem elsewhere.

The only possible exception would be trading Doumit straight up (the minute you throw in a starting pitcher the trade isn't worth it) for Uggla as I see Jaramillo/Diaz as a viable tandem at that position.

Jose

9

The best thing from that Andy video above (besides the music) is the announcer when LaRoche hit the 2nd double...

"HE'S GONNA GO FOR IT...

NOOOOO.

He puts on the breaks."

That was too good.  The cutoffman had the ball as Andy was like 3 steps past 2nd.  He really should've tried it anyway.

O well, great day yesterday BUDDY ANDY!

When it comes down to it, LaRoche's future is tied directly to Alvarez's ability to play 3rd.  If he's moved to 1st, LaRoche is really the only viable option at 3rd, and will stay there.  If Alvarez stays at 3rd, LaRoche will be moved (either to 2nd, or another team).

My gut tells me Pedro will eventually be moved to 1st.

Jose,

I'm more of a proponent for betterment via FA than trade at this point in time.  That said, if the right deal comes along I'd listen.  I think Doumit's value is so diminished right now they can't think of dealing him until he shows he can stay healthy and hit.   Plus, if that is the case I like his power bat in the lineup next year.  

I'm looking for power hitters and bullpen help wherever and however I can get it.

@ Jose, agree on starting pitching for Uggla.  Until we know what we really have in Owens, Alderson, and even a couple guys in the MLB uni, it's bad precedent.  And I don't think the Marlins go for Doumit or anyone alse except Cutch straight up.  

Is it time to spend some money on a position of need thru FA?  Or is it a year too early?  I don't see anyone in the minors ready for 2B by 2011.

JAL

What difference does it makes when the money "shows up"?  That's money they are no longer spending regardless of when it "shows up".

Yes, they couldn't pick up free agents mid season, and let's face it they're not going to spend much money on FAs in the off season.  It would be a waste of money.  FAs only help when a team has a hole or two to fill, which is not the situation the Pirates are in.

Where should they spend their money?

1. Keeping the few good players they do have. It would have been nice to at least make a competitive offer to players like Grabow and Bay.

2.  Draft the best player available in the first round of the draft and every round there after, then do everything possible to sign every draft pick.

wozzle, Jose, leadoff, et al...

I'm on the same page re: starting pitching.  It's too hard to find and too expensive to buy.  I hold on to it unless I'm on the verge of winning a division and I think the bat is critical to making it.  I like the arms we're accumulating.

I keep going back to Hank Blalock.  Relatively young, left-handed power that would not be terribly expensive.  I'd plug him in at third and look to move LaRoche to second.  When Alvarez arrives HB either moves across the diamond or PA slides in at first.  Then Jones becomes a guy who gets AB's at 1B, RF and LF while guys get a rest.  

I've been touting this for four days. I'm going to keep doing so until I beat everyone into submission!

@ wozzle: I don't think I can handle watching Young at 2B on a regular basis.

I know, I know, he has worked hard and I admire that, he just does not have the feel for the position. Heck, Bixler looks more relaxed at 2B than Young ever will.

As far as starting pitching, we have a lot of arms in the mix but few of the players attached to the arms have the experience/track record to say we can safely part with any of them, if you take my meaning.

Still, it will be an interesting winter just watching them try to craft a 40 man roster to preserve all this talent during the Rule 5 draft and such.

Jose

10

almartin

I agree that FAs would be a waste of money.  

It makes a difference when it shows up because you can't spend it until it does.  Just have to wait and see if they spend it on some of the players they have.

@almartin - sometimes I think folks aren't supposed to speak negatively about anyone here.

@leadoff - IMO I don't want to see us trading any prospects as I don't think we really know what we have with them.

And I think NH has been pretty straightforward regarding FAs, he's not spending the money just to spend it, I think any progress next year has to come from within, and thats troubling to me.

Ants have marched, and I would expect the game thread shortly

I keep going back to Hank Blalock.  

================================

I been sayin that BetterDays, but I'd put him @ 1B and keep Andy at 3rd until Pedro is ready.  Then Andy can become a player off the bench or a trade piece.

Whydidn'tI

Hopefully, Andy will develop enough that we can get something good for him