Pirates vs. Reds, 9-24-09: Upper deck closed

Current Pirate pitcher against former Pirate pitcher--oh boy!

morning links available here

community.post-gazette.com/.../morning-links-the-hacker-clapper.aspx

Is today the day we see some fire out of "The Group", or any fire at all from the leader of said group?

Time for some "Major League" quotes.   I'll start it off with... "Who are these f'ing guys?"

"Mitchell Friedman?"

you can substitute any Pirate Player in there...

not only are they losing, they are getting smoked by the some of the league's worst...San Diego, Cincinnati...

This team gave up back in August.  Wait, maybe not the team, but the coaching staff gave up back in August.  Kerrigan and whoever the hitting coach is should be send down the Ohio.

That's all we got, one G**D*** hit?

You can't say G**D***on the air.

Don't worry, nobody is listening anyway.

Continuing some of the JR discussion from the previous thread...I think he needs to go. A young team short on talent needs an inspirational/motivational manager and that certainly is not JR. He's so quiet you can't even hear him when he talks and he's a perpetual stoneface. In addition, I don't think he's shown much during the games as far making good decisions on a consistent basis. I think at best he's a marginal MLB manager and he's definitely not right for this team in terms of his personality. This team needs a leader.

Neal Huntington: I think he'll fit right in with our team concept.

John Russell: That reminds me, I was going to ask you. What exactly *is* our team concept?

So how do we fix this mess....

Cutch, Doumit, Milledge, Jones, and Cedeno for position players and Duke, Ohlie, and Maholm as starters have earned their jobs for next year. DY until lately was hitting pretty well so he probably gets a chance unless something better comes along at 2nd. I do not think it is unreasonable to expect this group to improve or at least maintain their 2009 performance, Cedeno being the biggest question mark.

Now what about the rest.   Andy probably gets to keep third warm for Pedro.  Moss, Walker, Pearce: out of options will either be on the roster or gone, if anyone else wants them.  Pedro, Tabata: When will they be ready to join the club and contribute? Any free agents strike your fancy?  I do not see much there.  Pitching wise I think they are in better shape. Lincoln, D. McCutch, Morton, Karstens, or Hart should provide adequate 4-5 starters. Is it worth trading some pitching (Duke or Maholm?) for a bat? Any thoughts?  

JoeB

Thanks--would have put it in my morning links but it did not show up in search

Neal will not bring back one of the players he traded away.

Not that he should, just simply that he won't

Remember, he didn't break up the '27 Yankees.

USA will face Cuba on MLB channel today at 2:00 for those who want to see Pedro.

So I have watched (somewhat – even I can’t take this) the final destruction of the Pittsburgh Pirates, and thought I would see just how far they sunk so fast (relative to their 120 year history). With their current 3-22 is their worst stretch since 1890 (!!), over a course of 18,000+ games.

Going on the assumption that ‘modern baseball’ started in 1901 when the American League was formed, up until their last winning season (1992 – curse Barry Bonds and his crappy fielding/throwing), the Pirates were 7441-6784, a 529% and 657 games over 500.

Since then they have gone 1160-1514, for a whopping 433% and they are 354 games under 500 in just 17 season. They have blown over half the games over 500 they built up over 90 years in just 17!

Is Syd Thrift still alive, maybe he can help.

It's amazing to me that some people on here talk about "the psychological impact the trades have had on the team". Like the team is losing because it is demoralized because of the trades.

This would obviously only be true if the reason the team were losing was because the few players who were here before the trades were not playing well.

The only players on the team that aren't in the group that have a job as a direct result of people being traded away are Zach Duke, Paul Maholm and Ryan Doumit.

You can't say any of those players are responsible for the losing, although Duke and Maholm have been up and down.

Everyone else has a job ONLY because of the trades, and they are perfectly aware of that. Some are taking advantage of that opportunity, like Milledge, Jones, and Cutch.

Others, like pretty much the entire bullpen outside of Hanrahan, not so much.

The losing has NOTHING to do with the players being upset with the FO, or JR "losing" them. It has everything to do with:

-------------------------------------------------------

#1. A bullpen that has only 2 players - Hanrahan and Jackson - that have a respectable ERA in the past month. And Hanrahan's been out.

#2. A lineup that has these players batting since Aug 25:

Andy LaRoche: .203 / .276 / .316

Steve Pearce: .200 / .304 / .383

Delwyn Young: .108 / .175 / .176

Luis Cruz: .115 / .233 / .115

---------------------------------------------

These players have been sort of OK:

Brandon Moss: .258 / .306 / .485

Ronny Cedeno: .256 / .319 / .360

---------------------------------------------

JR and the FO hasn't "lost" these players apparently:

Andrew McCutchen: .272 / .354 / .482 / 5HRs

Garret Jones: .303 / .388 / .545 / 6HRs

Ryan Doumit: .296 / .374 / .420

Lastings Milledge: .354 / .402 / .417

===========================

I think it's plain to see that we've got some players that are playing their hearts out, and some that are just not cutting it.

This just shows we desperately need a RF and 3B, and possibly a SS and 2B. Luckily, we have Tabata and Alvarez coming up.

And we need to get a bullpen of MLB caliber pitchers. Some of that will happen when guys like Hanrahan and Meek are available again.

But we already knew all that. It's not a surprise.

@MarkInDallas - A tribute to this group is that you were the only one to actually challenge my argument. Just asking me to name the FA's that I would sign (who wouldn't come here anyway) is missing the other 90% of running an organization. As Crazy Packers Fan wrote, we not only need to become competent at evaluating talent and other aspects of running the team, but we would need to overcome other teams' head starts, and would have to do so while being under-resourced in comparison to them. All the while, smart people in other organizations would "have a plan" and would be developing their own talent. It will take a massive effort to turn this around. The massive effort requires money among other things. The only end games here are 1) continued civic embarrassment while the Nuttings get to play owner, possibly subjecting us to multiple generations of Nuttings  2) MLB contracts this joke of a franchise 3) The Nuttings sell the team

My thoughts on the Russell debate can be summed up in two words - Who cares? Whether we are a bad team playing dreadfully or a dreadful team that was overachieving slightly does not have the least bit of significance. We are a joke, and not even the Almighty Perry Hill and Joe Kerrigan can change that fact.

One good thing about day games - it's over early.

I can't believe the lack of heat on Don Long.  I don't know exactly what a professional hitting coach is supposed to do - but it's clear that Long isn't doing it.

The man has done nothing to improve anyone.

GO BUCS

The Nats won last night, we are only 4.5 games behind them for last place in the majors.  Keep winning Nats!  We deserve last place.

I was all for the trades at the deadline, and still am.

I knew the team wouldn't be worse than the roster that started the season.  I was going to pay close attention to the pitching staff, and actually thought it would be our biggest strength...if we had one.  I envisioned a lot of 4-2 losses with strong pitching performances by both the starters and bullpen.  But injuries to the pen have blown that up, along with some bad starting pitching.  I also feel that with any timely hitting at all we could have seen more 5-2 wins along the way.  The record certainly wouldn't have been as bad as it is now.  Not much better.  But this team can't get any timely hitting --none with two outs, and none with 2 or more runners on base.

If no significant free agents are added to this roster, I say Pedro, Tabata and Clemment have to be brought up within the first few months of next season.  Get the youth movement started as soon as possible---that's why we blew the whole thing up anyway.

Everyone in Pittsburgh is protesting something......There should be thousands protesting the fact tht we have a MINOR league team and management pretending to be a major league group....

Well, 3-22 in 25 games could possibly be the worst stretch of baseball I think I've ever witnessed.  But one thing I saw on the last thread that I'm not down with is the fact that this losing is basically ruining these guys as baseball players.

I don't buy that.  I played on some crappy teams throughout my baseball career (whether it be little league, HS, American Legion). I also played on some good teams too.  We won and we lost. Sometimes we won a few more, sometimes we lost a few more.  It's a game and you're not going to win every night.  That simply is not feasible, possible, not feasible.

The thought that these players are so "defeated" that they can't win is bull.  To quote Herm Edwards, "YOU PLAY - TO WIN - THE GAME!" In listening to Bob Walk last night on the radio, I think he summed it up best in that these guys are usually neck and neck with the opponent until up until the 5th or 6th inning and then something goes wrong and it snowballs.

These are the growing pains that come when you have a 1st or 2nd year player at just about every spot (including the rotation and bullpen).  As someone pointed out last thread, if nothing had been done and all the players who were traded since Neal became GM were still here, the Pirates WOULD HAVE A FEW MORE WINS.  What's the difference between a team that wins 56 games (assuming our Buccos lose out for the rest of the season) and a team that wins 65 or 67 games?  Does either one make the playoffs? No.  Do they both finish in last place in the NL Central? Debatable, but if recent history shows us anything, then Yes.

To get to the only real discernible difference between these teams, you'd have to go "down to the farm".  The one thing that I think people still fail to recognize (it's like smokers, we know it's bad for us, but we do it anyway) is that pitching is the MOST important aspect of the game.  Good pitching beats Good Hitting 75-80% of the time.  The fact that the organization (TOP to BOTTOM) was completely void of any sort of pitching talent is why the Pirates are where they are.

Neal chose to do what he did because I think he recognized that

a) he didn't have the '27 Yankees at the beginning of '08

b) he had absolutely no pitching talent coming behind his current major leaguers

If the Dems still wanna blame Bush, then I'm still blaming McClatchy and Littlefield for having no pitching prospects whatsoever in 4 or 5 levels of minor league organizations that could make an impact at the major league level.  JVB?  Bullington?  Herrera?  Moskos maybe, but he projects as a reliever.  Lincoln I believe became injured almost immediately after being selected in the 1st round in '06.

Sorry for the longness of this post and I won't have any others like this on the game thread, but I couldn't even get through the comments on the last thread b/c almost everyone was "He needs fired." or "He's arrogant and needs to shutup." or "He sounds defeated" or "He should sell the team.  He owes it to the fans and taxpayers".  These comments are just knee-jerk reactions to a stretch of bad baseball.  Would you be calling for the Rooney's to sell if they go 7-9 this season?  How about fire Tomlin?  If the Pens miss the playoffs this year, should they get rid of Shero and and should Mario sell the team? And I know this is gonna envoke, "You can't compare the Steelers and the Penguins to the Pirates.  Those organizations are winners, the Pirates have lost for 17 years." Well what about when the Pens didn't make the playoffs for the first umpteen years of their existence?  Or what about that stretch of football in the 80s for the Steeless?  These are professional sports organizations and all go through ups and downs.  The Pirates are down right now.  That also means that they will get up again.

Some of these comments are repeats.  Let's not fall into the Pirate trap of trotting out old retreads.  There is PLENTY of ammo available.

Let's see what we can pick out of this detritus.

Bullpen

Chavez, Capps, Meek, Hanrahan, Jackson seem to me to have locked up spots for next year, barring injury.  This leaves two spots(although I'd go to a 10 man staff, but no one does anymore).

Karstens ERA is just atrocious, and he's out of options I believe.  He has a fairly decent BA against, but must have given up a lot of homers.  His control is barely better than crap, he's walked 44 and whiffed 48 in 97 2/3's innings.  Long relief is an easy spot to fill, cut him loose if he's no better in spring.

Dumatrait has  been much, much worse in a tiny sample size, plus his health history isn't good.  Haven't seen much to keep him around.

Bootcheck has been awful.  Hansen may not be healthy enough to come back by spring.  Vasquez has been putrid.

Ascanio had only 2 outings, need to see more, Veal will be back in the minors working on his control next year.

So out of all the dreck, the leader I think is Denny Bautista.

He's arbitration eligible though.  So let's see if they give him a shot.  Bautista hasn't been bad at all, and had some good outings last year.

But, if they just non-tender him as I expect them too, I'll have to guess that it is all just about the money.

From an earlier post

Good morning mates, good tidings if any are around.

ESPN is noting this is a "historic freefall" by our club.  And we thought "hapless" was bad...

I don't know what to say regarding we should be playing better, bottom line is we are not.  In my opinion, JR has to be held accountable for this nightmare on the field.  IMO the players are lost for whatever reason.  JR sits there like a slug (its NOT his only defense), does not instill fire (and I know he's a "quiet type"), and is not leading this club in the right direction.

Seriously, someone has to take a hit for this mess, it can't be NH, they have to give him more time, won't be FC, but I can't imagine this organization staying pat for 2010.  I've seen a few games where IMO again, JR has been totally overmatched managing the game, his yo-yo approach line-up probably confuses the players as much as us.

I honestly don't think there is any hidden or surprise agenda with his moves, I just think he's not a very good manager, especially with this team.

I hope NH knows what he is doing, I'd hate to have to go through a new GM and rebuilding again so soon.

@Roberto-Long diatribes are better?  The Pirates are down right now, show me where in the last 17 years that has ever meant they will get up.  Hasn't happened yet.  The Penguins, and Steelers have NEVER lost 17 seasons in a row.  Look it up.  This isn't an 'up and down'.  It's a record of suckitude.  We are #1 in losing, and having high draft picks, and STILL losing.

What does that tell you?  And don't bring up politics, please.  The only thing political the Pirates need to be concerned with is their pledge that tax payer money was needed to build a new stadium to make them competitive.  It's been 9 years, and they are the worst team in baseball.  Seems to me they could have done that in 3RS.

Another thing I wanted to address that I saw on the last thread...

Why would the city leaders care if the Pirates are winning or losing during the G-20 summit?

and two...

Why would any world leader or whoever is attending this summit care about what is going on in PNC Park?

I'm pretty sure all those men/women don't care that the city where a major world economic summit is being held doesn;t have a good baseball team.  In fact, maybe the fact that they could easily get tickets to basically any seat in the ballpark is a plus.  

JL - Ascanio is out of options too.  Same with Hansen, and do you offer him arbitration when at least one report said his injury could be career threatening?  Am not sure if Jackson is a lock for next spring.

Kartsens was pitching pretty good, but just fell apart like the rest of the club.

You can't fire all the players, so JR must go, maybe that will help keep Kerwin/Hill??

Updated Type A and Type B Free Agents

www.mlbtraderumors.com/.../elias-rankings-update-3.html

Looks like both F. Sanchez and Grabow are going to be type A free agents.  It would have been nice to get those picks, but Alderson has a higher ceiling than any player we could have gotten.  Grabow is another story, especially if we are going to attempt to get hime back in free agency.

@ Thuder - I was all for the trades at the deadline, and still am.

I was for most of them, after Nate was traded, but I didn't really expect things to get this bad.

The thing I don't like about the trades is the feeling much like DKs write up of the Bay trade, that NH had some real urgency to trade these guys, like he was obsessed or something.  Some of them are obviously not working out, Hart IMO is worthless as a starter, and won't go into others.  Beating a dead horse as it were.  

There aren't any free agents out there that would turn us around, and if we're going to stink again next year, I'd rather stink with young players than stopgaps.  Although, that would mean that when you say you are going to give someone a chance, think Pearce or Moss, you don't yo-yo them in and out of the lineup, speaking of Pearce, I'm assuming his chances are over?  Why?  What, are we going to lose another game??  SHeesh

dfraj8 -

When the most important part of the plan relies on building the minor league system, it's not really surprising that the plan isn't helping the W column on the MLB club this year.

The draft won't even begin to make a difference in Pittsburgh until at least Alvarez comes up, but the majority of it won't make a difference for several more years.

You can lose a baseball game in a number of ways. If you have half of your lineup that hits .200 or below, you are going to lose a lot of games. If your bullpen gives up multiple run innings every time out, you are going to lose a lot of games. Both of those things are happening right now.

That doesn't mean the Pirates don't have something to build on.

At the very least, the Pirates have 4 position players, 4 starters, and 2 or 3 relief pitchers that are very good building blocks going into next year.

What would you rather have: 25 guys, all of whom are mediocre, or half of which are very good and half which are terrible?

I'd rather have half that are good, because it's easier to find mediocre guys to replace the bad ones.

That's how I see the Pirates' situation right now.

@Bizrow, we already fired the players!  Ascanio has no options left either?  I'd like to see what he has.

Hansen threw hard, but couldn't place the ball.  I wouldn't offer him arbitration if he's never going to be able to pitch again.  

Karstens seems like a Josh Fogg type, with less talent.  One thing the old regime did was hang onto guys too long because they were there guys.  Van Ben, Vogelsong, Rios, etc.  We've seen enough of Karstens to know that the next John Candelaria isn't there.  Time to move along and enjoy the wealth of talent that's been provided.  Pitcher McCutchen seems to have at least the same skill set, and long relief is such an easy fill.  Just take your failed starter and plug  him in.

You can't keep on changing the coaches, I hope they keep Kerrigan.  Seems to me like he knows what he is doing.

Has Perry Hill given up too?  I think we should put him to work for the remainder of the season to work on trying out Andy at 2b.  I mean, what more do you need to know about Luis Cruz, Brian Bixler, Ramon Sanchez et al?  How would it hurt to just plan Andy at 2nd?  Would we lose bigger than now?  Andy's so-called "power numbers" would translate better to 2nd than third, and it would be an opportunity to see more at bats for Neil Walker.

In some of the previous "fire JR" posts there seems to be a theme that maybe the coaches aren't wanting to come back because of JR.  Really?  or is it a "psychological" thing resulting from the trades?

I think I read the other day that JR had to call Neal to get permission to play Doumit in the OF.  Really?  If JR has to consult with NH to FILL OUT THE LINEUP he isn't much of a man let alone a manager.  As a fan, I would appreciate a little more effort from the coaching staff to shake things up for the rest of the season.

Stuart

"So out of all the dreck, the leader I think is Denny Bautista.

He's arbitration eligible though.  So let's see if they give him a shot.  Bautista hasn't been bad at all, and had some good outings last year.

But, if they just non-tender him as I expect them too, I'll have to guess that it is all just about the money."

Ummm . . . really?  Denny Bautista?  Is there some other Denny Bautista you're talking about that isn't terrible?

What's Wrong:

We never would've received draft picks for Freddy or Grabow.  They both would have accepted arbitration (if offered).  And that's assuming Freddy didn't stay healthy and trigger the $8m option for next year.

Nothing goofy about the lineup today. JR might actually be playing to win one for a change.  Not that he would care anyway.

You know what would make my day?  Him getting tossed from the game today. First bad call, get out there and show you care, show some fire.  JR gets tossed today, I'll take down the firejohnrussell.com site immediately.

Oh BTW in my Andy for 2b rant, I didn't forget DY.  I think he will be a valuable spare part next year.  someone who can play both infield and outfield "in a pinch", and come off the bench to pinch hit would be a good role for him.  If Andy was smart he'd be ASKING to play 2b with Pedro on the horizon.

Stuart

Mark, when I've said there are psychological issues, I didn't mean that the players are all sulking at their stalls over lost teammates.  But I think there are mental issues on the club -- guys who do not have enough experience to handle being primary components of a lineup, or enough experience to handle a losing streak, or the right makeup keep focus after an error by a teammate, etc.

The alternative is that there aren't redeamable qualities in the vast majority of these players right now.  I'd prefer not to believe that.  Kevin Hart looks awful.  Is he a terrible player, or is there something about this team that is affecting his play? (because he put up a lot better numbers in Chicago)  A lot of guys are in that boat.

"Get the youth movement started as soon as possible---that's why we blew the whole thing up anyway."

@ THUNDERCRACK

Are suggesting that the youth movement hasnt already began?????

does that mean it could actually get worse??

" Welcome to Beirut. There is absolutely no one in the vicinity of anything on the Downtown perimeter. No cars, taxes, buses, nothing other than those helicopters buzzing overhead. Downtown itself is much the same right now, just super, super quiet except for the police offers talking amongst each other. At any rate, we begin the day ..."

@DK

So can we assume if yet another BRUTAL BEATING happens and no one is there to see it , can we ask did it really happen?????

Yes, Denny Bautista

This season

1-0 12 G 12 1/3 IP 12 H 6 R(all earned) 5 BB 14 K

Compared to Bootcheck 11.37 ERA

Dumatrait 8.10 ERA

Hansen 5.68 ERA

Karstens 5.53 ERA

Vasquez 6.30 ERA

Veal 6.39 ERA

Yates 7.50 ERA

Hart 1-7 6.93 ERA as a Pirate

Makes Denny look downright palatable!

Biz, I think part of Neil's urgency was that he felt J.Bay was more valuable in the year before his walk year.

Macs,  I think it could get worse, and we could still get younger.

I think they would have offered Grabow arbitration, and again, to resigh him and lose a second round draft choice would make absolutely no sense.  

Has JR ever had a closed door meeting with this club?  Something to try to relax, encourage, simply clear the air?

He just sits there like a slug, I tell you.  Leadership is not shrugging your shoulders and saying oh well, its gotta start there IMO

The Pirates are down right now, show me where in the last 17 years that has ever meant they will get up.

=============================================

@ JohnL

I believe in '97 they had a shot at .500, but that's not my point at all.  You've got to see the bigger picture.  The Pirates are a franchise that is 120 years old.  In that time they've won 5 titles.  They've also had losing records in many (at least 17) seasons.  That's my point.  In looking at the history of a pro sports franchise, we can see they all go through good years (didn't say championship said good years) and bad years.  Maybe not the last 17, butin the last 120, history shows that the Pirates will have  a good year again (even if only 1).

And about the Politics, someone said on the earlier thread that you can't blame Littlefield and McClatchey for this mess.  I was just using the analogy that if Dems can still blame Bush, then I can still blame Littlefield and McClatchey.  Wasn't trying to make a political statement, just using it as an analogy.

I used to think the Pirates were the best minor league team in the Majors.  Cicny is showing us that is not the case.

The fact that Bootcheck, Dumatrait, etc. are terrible doesn't make Bautista any less terrible.  In 188 IP in his career, he's walked 102 batters, and batters have hit .296 against him.  That's dreadful.

Hmm--Milledge at cleanup--how many does that make this season--Adam and Andy, Jones,  Doumit, McLouth, Monroe, Hinske, Milledge--probably missed someone too :)

I'd love to post something positive... I tend to be a glass half full kind of guy, but this is truly depressing.  I'm not so much concerned about this year (one more week of torture) but rather worried about next season.  I'm looking for something to show that next season will be better but having a bit of trouble. "Hope" isn't cutting it this morning.

These past few weeks have been like the premise from the movie "Groundhog Day" - just the same thing over and over. It's so depressing.  I never imagined it would be this bad.

I posted this in the other thread but since the lineups are already up...this one has become the primary. It was/is directed at BFD's comment about the FO being "the laughing stock of MLB and all of sports".

BFD,

This is from Tom Verducci of SI.com:

=========================================

The Pirates embraced the proper philosophy when they fully committed to younger players without worrying about their fans getting all weepy about losing complementary-type veterans who are not core-quality players of a championship-type team.

==========================================

Apparently not everyone agrees with your assessment of how the front office is handling the PBC.

The team is clearly lacking direction. There are very solid ML players on it who are able to perform at this level. McCutchen, Jones, Milledge, Cedeno, Ohlendorf, Duke, Maholm, Doumit have or are showing that they belong on the field.

Unfortunately, what was inherited didn't leave much in the minors to fill the other spots. The young players that the FO has brought in as potential pieces (Andy, DY, Pierce, Morton, Hart, etc) aren't getting the job done in the short term.

Will this experience pay off for them and the natural maturation process help them reach their true potential? I sure hope so. But the reality is that there is just as likely of a chance that they have peaked. Only time will tell.

If not, at the very least, we have potential replacements waiting for their shot in D. McCutchen, Tabata, Clement, Walker, etc that are there to push them out the door and try to seize their opportunity to do what Jones, McCutchen, Ohlie, etc. showed that they were capable of doing it.

Being able to say that there are possible replacements in Indy to push guys that aren't performing in Pgh is more than what could be said before this FO took over just two years ago.

@Trite Trophy Winner

I stopped using the groundhog day movie as an example awhile ago.

Although he relived Feb 2nd every day, he at least used the days prior to try to make each new day better.

This is not happening here.

"We never would've received draft picks for Freddy or Grabow.  They both would have accepted arbitration (if offered).  And that's assuming Freddy didn't stay healthy and trigger the $8m option for next year."

Your right, definitely with grabow, probably with Freddy. I didnt think that one out to much.

DK,

Have any of the players spoken "off the record" about their feelings towards JR and his ability to lead/manage the team?

I'm sure they are beaten down about the way things are going...but have you gotten any insight as to what they (the players) think is the primary reason for the current streak of futility?

Those are unsettling words from DK, so it appears it is getting worse.

Who's job is it to put a spark into this team, or at least attempt to do so?

Could it be the grounds crew and ushers etc outnumber the "crowd" today.When the prime minister(or whatever his title was) throws the first pitch on Friday keep him in the pen loosening up.God knows "real bulls"might throw better than Dumitrait and Chavez. *sigh*

Let's see....sharp stick in the eye or Pirate game....hmmmm........hmmmmm..........hmmmmm..Since I shelled out $200....

 I used to think they filmed JR with a slo motion camera,but it turns out it was a high speed cam. lol

@DK - Feel free to ask JR if he'd like to post any responses on the FireJohnRussell.com site. It's weird that I've alwasy been anti-FireSomeone sites, but this is just absolutely furious.  He's welcome to respond to anything posted.  Not that he seems to care anyway.

A young team with no leadership and a manager who shows no passion = a team that is capable of losing 17 out of 20 twice in one season. Hey Ryan Doumit, if the manager doesn't want to lead, how about you show some fire and get these guys wanting to play?

Between JR's walk to the mound and Hart's walk off after every inning and his between pitch routine, I could have grown and shaved my beard several times. Russell's lack of a pulse concerns me.

But it could well have a positive effect. Seems like Russell may be laying back in the weeds waiting ever-so-patiently for someone---and my guess is Cutch from the tone of his quotes after yesterday's game---will start the move towards some life. Somebody has to create that energy within the team and when these young guys STOP looking around waiting for someone to do that and take it upon themselves, then we'll see that leader or those leaders emerge. Time to stop feeling sorry for yourselves, boys, and play some damn baseball.

Over/Under on the attendance today: 1,380.

@DK-Hey, they know EXACTLY how we feel!

Sox=true, Denny Bautista's career stats(lifetime era of 6.21!) aren't what anyone would consider good.  But, of the drek out there now, he's the LEAST drekky.

Bootcheck has raised his career era up to 6.50 this season, Dumatrait's is up over 7.  Bautista just maybe has figured something out.  His ERA in AAA this year with the bases empty was 0.47.  He must lose a lot pitching out of the stretch?  He also looks much more confident in the times I've seen him this year.

Remember, we traded a 4th round pick for him, Kyle Pearson.

@DK - that surprises a lot of us here. Not so much the coaching staff part, but the manager part. Seems like they would like someone that shows some emotion and has their back every now and then a bit more.

Over/Under on the attendance today: 1,380.

 That many?

DK,  If the players are fine with the coaches, and the coaches are fine with the Mgr, why are we seeing coaches with "option" year contracts indicating that they won't be back?

Stuart

@Roberto

I totally disagree that losing doesn't beget losing. I played baseball until I was 25 from tee-ball up through federation and like you I was on bad teams and good teams. There were many times when I was on bad teams where we basically just gave up - especially later in the season. Sure, you never go out there wanting to lose, but you start to expect to lose. That kind of mentality shows up in the little things. Loss of focus and concentration for the most part, which leads to poor pitching,  errors and poor hitting, you name it.

DK said there's a terrible atmosphere with the team right now. That impacts play on the field. Yes, they are professionals, but they're only human.

The pen has been terrible(to say the least)but Brad Lidge is almost worse .....all by himself.

Lidge (0-8), who blew his major league-leading 11th save.

How can you blow that many and be 0-8? His ERA is 7.48.

Living in central Ohio, I don't get to see the Bucs much. But I've been able to watch them against the Reds. I know they're young, etc., but what has really irked me has been the lack of fundamentals--the kind of stuff young players should be expected to know. Okay, so you're overmatched. But at least play sound baseball. Criminy!

Example: Two nights ago, with one out and the bases juiced, Duke induces a dribbler picked up by Doumit. He steps on home for one, but doesn't seem to remember to take a quick step inside the line before throwing to first. Result: hits the runner in the back and opens the floodgates, rather than ending the inning.

Example: Brian Bixler comes up after a wild reliever has walked the bases loaded. Bixler takes ball one, then swings wildly at even worse ball two. You've got to take a strike there. Anyone playing at any level above Pony League should know that.

These are isolated examples, and there are more that I witnessed in just the two games against the Reds. These guys aren't just playing losing baseball, they're playing lousy baseball. Where is the accountability?

Thanks, DK for your take on everything..  It's probably harder for the guys in the clubhouse than it is for some of us.  

They go out there and play their tails off -- I'm not going to apologize to those of you who don't believe that.  I'm sure they, more than me, at least, wish they had more to show for it  

Due to the afternoon game, no PBP today...none tomorrow, I will be at the game.  Though I wish Maholm were starting.

I get paid to watch people die. No kidding, no joke. That's my job in seven words.

I don't care if they lose every game from September to Armageddon, they get to play baseball and they damn well better enjoy it. This life is way too short to get down on yourself because you suck at baseball. Last time I checked they still serve beer at the ballpark. The uniform includes stirrups and if you need some work they send you south for the winter.

Now get this, 40 guys who's job doesn't involve an iron lung; I'm bringing the family tomorrow night, it's my birthday, I'm making my wife drive, I plan on drinking beer, eating peanuts and embarrassing my kids and you sunzabiches better smile and have a good time or I'll come down on the field and drag Perry Hill's ass to Millvale to see what an evil management really looks like.

maz

Mike and Mike played Lidge over Troubled Waters this morning

@Wish I were There...Doumit had to adjust his throw for Jones who moved to the outside of the bag.  They showed it in slo-mo replay on the post game...He was inside, as was Jones, but at the last minute Jones moved to the other side of the bag and Ryan had to make and adjustment.

JAL-Funny stuff.

@Dmac

So Jones either doesn't see that it's a dribbler or doesn't know what the catcher should be doing? As a catcher, you work on this over and over, and you're generally throwing to a first baseman, who might have an idea it's coming. So the lapse is on Jones's part? Isn't that still a big fundamental error? You get two there and you get Duke out of the inning. For whatever reason, they can't get two on a dribbler with the bases loaded. That's not being overmatched, that's lousy play.

Zisk -

You pulled up some obscure article of one man who thinks this team is doing things right.  He proabably was the same guy who said the titanic should set sail with so few life jackets. ---- come on!

wHY ALL the talk about JR?  Yes.  It is sopmething only a Bob Nutting owned team would do in hiring as a manager the same man who was fired as a 3rd base coach..... but do any of you think he is the real problem?  You can't polish a turd and that is exactly what Bobby and Neil and co has left us....

I see posts about som of the big league talent we have.  Yes a few players have performed well this year, but 1 season of avg. play does not make for a career.  Talk to me about these guys when they put up some numbers 2 and 3 yrs in a row.  

As this is being typed, there might not be 200 people here.

DK-There might be more bloggers than fans. :-)

DK, if they're happy with the coaches and the manager, could the problem possibly be Neal? Just sayin'.

                         Srsly.

             IN NEAL WE TRUST!

DK:

Any word on whether the Pirates have any regrets for keeping the game as regularly scheduled?  I know they would rather have a second separate gate instead of playing a double-header, but I think they would have had more people going to watch two games last nite than what they have decided to do.  This is embarrassing.

Sounds like a good day to get a ball hit into the stands

JR is a nice guy or so I've heard, nice guys don't necessarily make good managers and vice versa.

I don't think its up to the players by themselves to get out of this malaise, that is management's job.

I think losing affects you in one big way, you don't play to win, you play not to lose, and when you do the latter you are thinking ok, when is the bad thing going to happen to us?

Stargell used to say baseball is a game and you should be having fun playing.  From the sounds of things, no one is having any fun.

Wonder what Phil Garner is doing right now???

@WishIWereThere...It helps when the player moves to a different spot from where you anticipated him to be, doesn't it?  My point was, it wasn't all on Doumit.  He misjudged when he made the adjustment, but Jones stepped the wrong way.  It was an unfortunate mistake.

@Wish...One more thing...Jones had the ball in his glove, it was knocked out by the runner.  :-)

And we're off.  0-2 on the first batter of the game, Willy Taveras.

Youth movement or no youth movement, every professional organization has the RESPONSIBILITY to field a competitive team at their major level.

The Pirates simply have not done that, by any realistic measure, in the past 2 months of the season.

The vast, vast majority of personnel currently on the ML roster would be an afterthought on almost any other ML roster that actually is COMPETING or IN the playoffs this year.

To simply think "Oh, we have Tabata, et al" coming up next season and that's going to fix things is pretty delusional if you ask me, considering the pitching staff, as constructed, has absolutely no prayer of winning 82 games.

So basically we, as Pirate fans, will be treated to no less than 2 more losing seasons, bringing that total to 19 consecutive, before we might have a "chance" to reach .500.

As I said last night, the Pirates are now officially the Detroit Lions of MLB.

(PS:  yes, the Pirates could not use Jason Bay.  He's only hit what, 32 HR's this season for the Red Sox.  The Pirates will be lucky to get anyone who can hit 30 HR's in a season in 2010 or 2011).

Whiff!  Perfect game intact!

2-0 on Drew Sutton though...

@BFD

Srsly... what does JR getting let go as a third base coach have to do with him managing the team now?

It's not like he was hired off the unemployment line.  He was hired as a manger while being a manager for a team.  Granted, an AAA team, but he was still hired by someone else first as a manager.

What does it say for the Philly organization then if they hired him as a manager too?

Dangit!  Perfect game ruined with a walk, but the no-hitter is still alive.

For a little bit more humor, another gem from Major League:

"Ball 4......Ball 8......Ball 12.........I just don't understand how they are laying off pitches that close".

joerevs300

Jones has 20 in half a season so if he can hit like that in the future he can hit over 30.

Wow!  Votto lines out into a double play RF to 1B, Moss picks up an assist!

No hitter?  I'm on record as calling it first.

strike out, walk, DP--to bottom of first 0-0

Glad to see Andy's bat back in there.  Should make a big difference.  Oh, and in the words of the Pirate apologist Blass, "at least ya can't say they're mailin' it in."  No, Steve, this is being done by carrier pigeon 'cause pony express was sold out.  

Biz, I believe Phil Garner politely turned down the Pirates before. I'm not 100% sure though.

And in his 98th game as a Pirate, Andrew McCutchen draws his 46th career walk!

BFD,

You're right...he is one man that's writes obscure articles:

Here's his bio:

sportsillustrated.cnn.com/.../archive

Here's Harold Reynolds saying that the Pirates had to do what they did:

mlb.mlb.com/.../video.jsp

Here's a more scientific breakdown of the moves made and the actual value added:

www.beyondtheboxscore.com/.../analysis-of-a-fire-sale-the

The fact of the matter is that the team was mired in a funk that was on the brink of breaking the record for futility. Keeping any of the players traded so that the futility wouldn't reek as bad as it does at the moment wasn't even an option let alone a wise strategy.

There was enough talent acquired that suffering through a catastrophic stretch like we are isn't nearly as bad as suffering through another half to full decade of losing with no one in the minors to come up and possibly stop the bleeding.

And that $1 player grounds into a DP on the FIRST PITCH!

Oy vey.

I got a feeling Dusty Baker may have given the "mercy rule" sign to the third base coach to run Sutton on Votto's flyout ... sorta like, "Let's let the Pirates win one here ... It's the end of the year, they can't hurt us anymore."

DK, quit posting those pictures.

I'm going to hurt myself.

Money -

It would be like my company giving me my walking papers and then hiring me back as CEO next year.  And yes.... he was coaching in AAA.  On 2nd thought manybe he is a good fit because most of these guys belong in AAA (at best)

Money really..... Philly had him coaching in AAA....srsly.

I know you are reaching for something positive and will defend Bob and his "best mgt group" till the end, but I have news for ya.,...... The sky is dark over PNC park.... the end is near.

I wonder if any of the G20 leaders have strong athletic builds who can pitch on a downward plane?  NH will sign 'em/

Happy Birthday JLP!

And good words to live by too.

PIrata's back!  Long time no see!  :-)

Nice around the horn DP...Andy to DY to Jones!  SWEET!

John Lease beat me to it.  By swinging at the first pitch after watching McCutcheon get a walk after a 10 pitch first at-bat, Delwyn shows his baseball IQ...or lack thereof.  Well, he's either stupid or wants to get the game over with quickly.  Either way, I would've come close to benching him right there.

Two innings....to DPs.

This might be a good sign.

Demery, no Garner

Sigh, ok, then how about Bob Walk?

@Zisk, I looked at the link.  The guy admits that maybe deciding that the Pirates would have non-tendered Gorzo might be wrong.

So, IF they would have non tendered him, it comes up slightly positive, assuming positive projections.

Not really a ringing endorsement.

I didn't say which team would get a no hitter, did I?  Since Bronson would LOVE to stick it to the Pirates.

@Macs: I'll be here.

"What an awful atmosphere within this team right now. Just miserable. Beyond words."

@DK,

I know you love your work but frankly i would rather sandpaper  a bobcats butt  in a phone booth than go through what you are going through now

@BFD

Seriously, I am not trying to reach for something positive,

I am just asking what I think is an objective question.

He was a manager several times, and only got fired when the REST of the staff got fired.  Just like every team does.

That doesn't necessarily unqualify him for being a manager here now.  

Ball one to Bronson.

Having Bronson Arroyo pinch hit for his Major League debut was the last straw in my hatred of Gene Lamont.  He didn't even have cleats on, went up there in sneakers.

@John Lease

You realize, I think our best record was WITH Gene Lamont

Game over, Sutton ground rule doubles in Bronson.

Be careful leaving the game folks!

Familiar place ... Pirates fall behind, 1-0.

Two things that would help Jeff Brantley, Reds' color man, in his broadcasting career:

Stop speaking through your nose, and give up the good ol' boy approach, already. He uses "that baby" WAY too much.

The no triples defense claims another victim. Easy pop fly to left out of reach.

I think between Brantley, the all-too familar NOW 3-0 lead for the Reds and the hefty pimiento cheese sandwich I just wolfed ... I'm headin' upstairs for a nap.

Make it 4-0, as we type ... These guys are giving new meaning to the adage, "When it rains, it pours."

Down 4 -0. Wow, that didn't take long. :(

Bob Smizik's Blog entry about the Pirates this morning was quite the ray of sunshine.  That's for stating the obvious Smilick.

Thanks DK!

DMac--yeah feels like forever, probably b/c it has been!  I am healing nicely but that 3 weeks at home was a little tedious at times. Rainy days were the worst b/c I wasn't allowed to get my foot/incision wet, so I couldn't even hobble to the library.

Speaking of rain, I am bummed that they are calling for rain Sun & Mon, I have tix both days. But even if it doesn't rain, I sense we will all be in tears anyway.  

I think between Brantley, the all-too familar NOW 3-0 lead for the Reds and the hefty pimiento cheese sandwich I just wolfed ... I'm headin' upstairs for a nap.

Money-I'd be hard pressed not to boo Gene Lamont if I saw him walking down the street.

4-0 Reds!  Luis Cruz ruined the no hitter with a single though.

Well, from the sounds of things, so much for Morton's forward steps, at least today anyways

Is he nibbling as I think he usually does al la Kip Wells?

Note to self regarding fantasy baseball:

Make sure Joey Votto is active during the weeks that he plays the Pirates.

DK,

Thanks!  Great pictures!

I shudder though——sometime in the future these pictures or ones like them from today will be used by ESPN or some out-of-town media to insist that Pittsburgh doesn't/won't support baseball. (like they did with the Playoff non-sellouts in 65,000 Three Rivers in 1990 or 1991, when our crowds were actually larger that some other venues.)

@DMac

(After a delay due to lunch)

Perhaps I could have chosen a better example. An overhand throw to the first baseman when he's expecting a flip. Not knowing whether to throw to third or second on a bunt. Throwing the ball around instead of holding on when there is no play. Swinging wildly at balls right after a walk. (Wait, I did choose that example, and then today  Delwyn imitates Bixler.)

Maybe they're all trying to do too much and think too much, rather than simplifying and playing error-free, fundamentally sound baseball. I don't know what I'd do as a manager--you can sit a guy, but who's behind him pushing him? But I'm not paid to know what to do as a manager. Someone is, though.

@Wish...I gotcha and point taken.  There have been some defensive muffs that were pretty routine.  

I've only got that game on radio today, so I'll have to take your word on DY.  DY has been learning on the job and Bix was playing 2nd in Indy...not to completely excuse it, just saying.  ;-)

Wish You Were There,

I did not see the infield play as Doumit's fault.  The ball hit Garrett Jones right in the glove, after he shifted sides.

I would attribute it to Jones playing outfield all year:  almost exclusively in AAA and 5 out of 7 games in his time with the Pirates.  Jones remembers how to play 1st base, but any player needs lots of time and practice to be razor sharp.  That play occurred because of slow recognition by a (recently) non-regular at 1st Base.

Not necessarily palatable, just reality.

Still, it was a shame Duke had to end up suffering again!

How much does this clubhouse need a man such as Meintkeweicz?  I think our boys forgot how to play the game.

Hearing/seeing this makes me very worried for the 2010 season.

DMac -

On that Doumit throwing error from the other game...That's not how I saw it. Jones only moved to the other side of the bag because the throw was off line. Ryan's throw was headed behind the runner instead of on the fair side of the base. Jones moved to the foul side of the base when he saw it going that way, but in doing so, I think he had trouble picking up the ball again, because he had to pass in front of the runner.

In the end Jones could have caught the ball, but I'd give the error to Doumit there. He did move a little in front of the plate before the throw, but he had time to take another step and should have done that.

Why do pirates pitchers al seem to have one inning where they give up 3 or 4 runs?  

And how many times this season have we seen a lead off double go no where?

Cut those two in half and probably have 10 or more wins.

The other thing to note about that play was that it was the second DP of the inning that the Bucs failed to turn.

ESPN SportsNation has a poll up right now "Which franchise is the biggest mess?"...  They have it up in light of Gretzky stepping down as coach of the Pheonix Coyotes and all the stuff going on with that organization.

4 choices - Coyotes, LA Clippers, Detroit Lions and our very own Pittsbugh Pirates.

As I type this we have 29% of the vote in 2nd place.  

Thought I'd let you know.

Fire Long

GO BUCS.

go figure--Morton has pitched 6 innings--3 were 1-2-3, 2 others he faced only 3 batters  due ti DPs--then there is is the 3rd inning--

Good day, inmates.

Last night was freakily eery outside the stadium before the game.

Inside, my mother (who had a date with a guy that took her to the Cathedral of Learning and "saw" Maz's home run to win the series back in the day) sat beside me saying "this is embarassing. I feel bad for the team. No one's here! Maybe they want to come to supper or something... Maybe Garrett and Ryan will come to supper."

Geez mom, the whole team needs to come, I said.

It's painful to watch, and it's painful to think of what it must feel like to get trounced by the Reds in front of oh, 25 people per section.

I wasn't sorry I was there. It wasn't me that clapped though. I mostly yelled "Hart, throw strikes! Strikes!"

"The New York State Thruway is closed man!!!"

With all the protestors in town, maybe we could get some to hold those "Thanks for Nutting Bob!" signs while marching?

It's hard to imagine the Pirates scoring more than 1 run today. And that would be by accident or if someone runs into one.

It is generally accepted that inexperienced players that have a chance to be excellent have "flashes of brilliance" mixed with inconsistency and poor patches.

That right there describes Charlie Morton, and that's why I think he does have a chance to improve to be a very good pitcher for us.

POH

So we now know you were not the clapper.  Only have to hear from few hundred others :)

Salty - it's a question I've asked on here before. What, exactly, is Don Long doing?

I hope they let Morton stay in after the 7th inning unless a pinch hitter actually has a chance of making a real difference.

Bizrow

I think Morton has taken a step forward.  He pitched very well except for the 3rd.  7 innings and 6 hits but only 1 after the 3rd.  No clue what happened in the 3rd except a walk started the inning and walks kill.

Markln

There is your run run--Milledge homer

POH,

And listening to your exhortations, Hart thought to himself, "If nibbling at the corners worked for J. Fogg and K. Wells, it'll work for me."

I went thru all those polls and couldn't find it!

go figure--Morton has pitched 6 innings--3 were 1-2-3, 2 others he faced only 3 batters  due ti DPs--then there is is the 3rd inning--

=================================================

@ MarkinDallas

That line above (and thanks JAL for posting that as I'm at work and can't watch the game) speaks to your point about Morton.  He has top of the rotation stuff, it's just the inconsistency with it that is the problem.  I'm not saying he'll be a Cy Young candidate next season, but I definitely think he will do much better next season (as long as he gets that consistency).

Markln

Morton at 103 pitches--maybe another inning but most likely not.

Remember when JR was hired?  They said it was impressive how he managed to squeeze 55 wins out of an Ottawa team that had no real talent.  Seriously.   Google it if you don't believe me.

I tried not to laugh when I re-read that THIS was his skill, considering that is what he is doing now.  He must have left all of his "when life gives you a team of lemons, make great lemonade" magic north of the border, eh?

Hasn't he proved this year that maybe he isn't so good at squeezing water from a rock as they may have thought.

Ugh, I hate losing, and I hate losing to the Reds even more.  

HAVE SOME PRIDE BUCCOS!  BUC UP ALREADY!

Milledge!

@Mark...THey broke that play down in slo-motion on the post-game.  I guess it's all in how you interpret it, but it looked like Ryan adjusted to Jones moving.

@ PoH

Apparently Milledge has credited Don Long for helping him at the plate this season.  He's been hitting something like .370 in the last month (albeit mostly singles, but still).

He hasn't really helped (well I really don't know, but no one else has said anything about Don) anyone else though.  

I seem to remember all the players, with the exception of Duffy who wasn't around I don't think when Tracy lost the team, "liked" Jim Tracy, too.  

Welcome back, Pirata.  Hope the foot's doing well.  There are Jersey barriers outside your building.  Kinda strange site.

Happy Birthday JLP; might I inquire if you are wearing the speedo to the game for your birthday?

John Lease

I found it on the ESPN front page.  They have a story on the right about the Coyotes and Gretzky...beside that they have "poll" - click on that.

FIRE LONG.

GO BUCS.

Wilver Dornell,

I remember differently about Tracy.

There were very few who thought he had their back.  He seemed to talk more about his own abilities as a manager, especially in the past.

That act had grown old with the players.  They quit!

JAL - Morton

Hope you are right, but am not sold on any of the hurlers we've picked up this summer, one bad inning is still one bad inning and a killer, especially with the way we are hitting.

I really think that JR has to walk the plank this off season.  I'd say this team was doing the curly shuffle this past month, but that would probably be too organized for them.  We're like dead fish...  just laying there....

Because there is hope for next year:

Joe Kerrigan will have a winter plan for every pitcher. How amazing will that be for all these guys with talent and ability to follow the Kerrigan plan. Think of next year!

Now, I volunteer to be on the crew that builds a batting cage at every single one of them's winter home.

Bizrow

The Curly shuffle--no way--the Curly shuffle takes energy and haven't seen that--whoo whoo :)

Good-n-Plenty,

Sorry I missed seeing you last night at the game.  I was sitting 4 rows behind Pirate dugout.

We could have yelled across the stands and/or infield to each other to have a conversation.

That had to be the most depressing, woeful Pirate game I've ever been to!!!

The Reds are just a glorified AAA team, and they ate our lunch!

I felt like the Buccos were like the little kid in "A Christmas Story" who falls down with the thick snowsuit on, and can't get up!  They just kept rolling around on their backs!

You can get some good laughs when people poke fun at the Pirates.

thatschurch.com/.../stinky-stink

Groat - we could've talked the whole night! I was behind the Reds dugout!

Question: The Red OF that held up the game a second (not that Hart's pace of pitching doesn't take a lunar month to get through an inning anyway) - what was his deal? Did he go to the bathroom or what?

Totally bummed I couldn't sneak over to the game. Like going to the beach out of season. Plus it'd be pretty cool to get one of those placards.

Wilver: I'll leave the speedo wearin' to the Morrissey freak.

I want to go on the record as supporting JR's return. For the same reason I support giving Michael Jackson's kids to Joe Jackson. He can't possibly do any worse, can he?

Two scoreless inning for Steve Jackson, now has K'd more than he's walked on the season.

On to the bottom of the ninth!  Grand Slam wins it!

Groat2Maz---i do not disagree about what Tracy did or that your interpretation is a logical one.  What I was saying is it was my recollection that it was reported that the players said they liked him.  Interesting comment though, about "very few who thought they had their back."  And besides, my point was (and I realize that was the question asked) whether the players "like" JR or not doesn't really answer the question of whether he has lost them.  Reportedly the players in DC quit on Acta at least in part because he never left the dugout to "have their backs."  I don't know if they "liked " him.

@Groat

The Pirates laid there like slugs, it was their only defense.....

One last out to finish being swept by the Reds.

I bet the Pirates are glowing with pride on this one.

@ JAL---Who cares if he pitched 6 great innings...it was the 4 runs he gave up in one inning--he was the losing pitcher and deserves the loss...excuses...excuses...excuses...have another glass of the FO kool-aid

@JAL - good point, that made me chuckle

PoH - Kerrigans plan depends on Kerrigan's return, so I wouldn't get my hopes up to high (although I know you will ; }

Brandon Moss gets his only basehit to stave off defeat!  Doumit pinch hitting!  

SINGLE!  TYING RUN TO THE PLATE JARAMILLO!

Stop the presses, Ryan Doumit hit the ball to the opposite field!!!!

And Jaramillo whiffs to end it.

Now who gets the guaranteed wins next?

I suppose 5 hits tomorrow again and (hopefully) 1 run.

This is unreal.

  Cutch stole a base on the 5th for the last one.

 Ground Hog Day was less predictable than the storyline of these games.

  How many of the last 15 games were 7 hits or less?

Did the Pirates have any interest in Wagner Mateo?

The Cardinals have voided his contract.

Can they get Mateo, Sano & Bryce Harper???

Anyone want to take odds on if we can lose out till the end of the season?

I'm sure JR is talking to them and raising their spirits......

Oh no, we suck again.

@JLP and anyone else who is going tomorrow...if you'd be interested in meeting up pre-game, or even post-game, shoot me an email through my profile.  If not, that's cool, just thought I'd throw it out there.

I suppose it was too much to ask for Jaramillo to crush one out, but something in the corner would have been nice.  Way better than a K.  :-(

@Biz - Those aren't odds at this point, those are expectations. I'd be surprised if we win one more.

People downtown panicked for a couple of minutes today when they heard the sounds of explosions. It turns out it was just fireworks for a Pirates home run. But fireworks for a Pirates victory - there's something that comes around as often as the G-20 summit.

The best and worst of the year.

Best - We still have a team in Pittsburgh, There's always next year.

Worse - Sorry JR, not sure what you do behind the scenes but watching on TV and in person I have determined you are; throwing games, don't have a clue how to manage, or are being told what moves to make every step of the way.  Hot players sit, young guys on a tear in the minors brought and sit while regulars play below their abilities; pitchers faltering you stay with them too long.  No glue on making a line-up. Ever hear that if it's not working to make changes?  Well you have to keep doing it until something clicks. Challenge more bad calls, the players need it, the fans need it. baseball needs it.  Don't have to be over animated but just challenge some please.

No triple outfield setup.  Man, either change the field dimensions or let the guys play it straight away like most other teams do with us. We have the speed in the outfielders to play them straight.  Situation is okay when you are facing someone that always pulls or whatever but this is just nuts.

Players - Do what is needed to get yourselves in better shape, improve your abilities and help the team overall. Shake off the losing and get pumped for the next game.  Have short memories after a win or lose and keep going forward. Once you are in that dugout and the games starts there is nothing else going on to worry about.  Remember you are representing the teammates, the Pirates, and the fans of the city you play for, and self respect if you have any.  Hustle on every play like it may be your last. For some of you it just may be.  Relax, have fun this is a game, believe in yourselves and we will believe in you.

Ok done ranting.

As we have come to expect; another depressing loss.

Stuart

I'm very, very sad ... someone pick me up.

DMac if you are still here, do you really think the team is trying?  If they are, man we really stinkola

@Biz...I know a few of those guys don't know what "give up" means.  Jones, AMac, Milledge, Ryan, Moss...Andy, who wanted to play though he looked like he was at death's door, DY...I DO think they trying.  

Maybe they're over-thinking at the plate?  I don't know, but I don't think they're going out there saying, "Heck this season's done, let's tank the game".  

DY, I think, is flat out exhausted.  He's been working so hard on his D that maybe there's nothing left at the plate.  Again, I don't know.  

Andy has been hitting better lately, but he was sick for a few days.

Ryan's average over the last 30 days is .296...so he's been hitting, just not when there are guys on in front of him.

Milledge is hitting .354, Jones .303 over the same period.

Some guys are hitting the ball but right at other guys and they haven't been patient at the plate.

The defense...I don't know if that's mental/physical exhaustion or what...they have looked better.  

They played better in L.A., though they lost...They should have won the 2am marathon, except for Capps gave up the tying run in the 9th, then Dumatrait the 2-run shot in the 11th (?) when they were actually up by a run.  

They should have won the Saturday game against S.D., and been closer in the others.  

THey're human though and the mental drain on the situation could be wearing on them, whether they'll admit it or not.  

Chosen1,

That Mateo kids sounds like he could be something. If I am the FO and Bob Nutting, I swoop in like a knight on a white horse and offer him the exact contract that St. Louis just voided and give him 3 days to sign or I'm walking.

The Cards have proven to be fairly good evaluators of talent and if they saw enough in this kid to offer him up that kind of cabbage, I'd take the chance on him now that they are balking.

Especially since I was under about $1M in the draft and I cut my ML payroll by about $8M this year.

17 AND COUNTING  

Go find a dictionary and look up excuse.  No way what I posted was an excuse for anything.