Morning links: The end is nigh?

wow a full 30 minutes after morning links was posted and still no comments.  well I guess being comfortably in the 3rd position for the 2010 draft will do that.  

51 to go

5 1/2 games to gain in those 51.  no problem

The Big 3:

PIT@COL  tues-thur

KC@MIN   tues-thur

WAS@ATL  tues and wed and then four at Cincy (looks like a series win for the Nats there)

Thanks Ron for sharing Tony's story with all of us.  Tony is right on.

all of us came here with nothing and can take nothing with us when we are gone.  everything we "own" will be someone elses at some point.  our home, car, property, money and fill in whatever else.  those things might have our name on it now, but only for a short time.  in those trying times such as the ones Ron wrote about its clearly illustrated that people want to be surrounded by family and friends.  when all of us are near our last breath, the last things we'll be thinking about are our degrees, our careers, this baseball team, or anything else we spend obsessing about with our time.  give a hug to those that are dear to you today.  and you know what, we could all use a day of no complaining!!!!  what a much better life it would be at work, in our homes, at school, and anywhere else one may go today.  we have so much to be thankful for.  if you have a car to go to work in today, you're better off than 90% of the rest of the world because only about 10% of the world's population owns a car so if you have two...be doubly thankful!  think about that instead of complaining about traffic this morning.

I know we dont have an "other stuff" column anymore until the offseason, but let's see where this goes today since today is an off day for the Buccos.

Thanks!

bucsfan -

>>wow a full 30 minutes after morning links was posted and still no comments.<<

Being a Pirates fan these days will wear you out. Guess everyone has gone to bed so they can sleep late on the off day.

@ DK.  

With the Nationals probably unable to sign Strasburg is our front office ready to pony up the money next draft?

This is a very important question that was answered as a yes after the Sanchez signing, but he was unavailable.

If at all possible, after the deadline Will you ask this question of Huntington if the Natioinals do not sign him?  I can't wait to hear him try to segway away from a direct question with a yes or no answer.

I bet you he answers the question in no less than 50 words.

Can't wait.

G-Man

it can you are right.  I think Bob's blog column this morning puts things into great persepctive though.  all of us love baseball and while it might not seem like it here sometimes, Pirates baseball really isn't near the top of our list of things that are really important in life overall.  Its probably not near the bottom in my book, but it isnt at the top either even though baseball overall is probably what I enjoy most when I have free time because we watch, play baseball, and attend games as a family.  

so in an effort to build on Tony's story from today I do agree with Bob as well when we should consider ourselves lucky and fortunate to have a team we can root for.  we are one of a maximum 15 cities on a given day that has an MLB game being played.  I dare to say many other towns in America would love to have that opportunity.  Im glad we have tickets that are affordable and that we have jobs to be able to watch this team both on television and in person.  someday things will get better, until then even a bad team has its positives if we end up with a Strasburg or Harper to go along with everyone else in the farm system and some on the 25 man roster which is why I am keeping up with the Nats and KC at this point and hoping for a ROY award for one of our Buccos.

I will be one to disagree that this team is terrible, even though they are losing terribly.

I would compare it to a crumbling wall that needs to be rebuilt. Initially it has no really sturdy parts and bricks falling and crumbing all over. You tear down part of it and use those bricks to make at least one part strong and sturdy.

At that point the wall is actually worse at keeping people out, because in some places it's non-existent. But it's actually closer to being fixed, because now you just need to find some more bricks to finish the part you took out.

What we have now is a team that is essentially a half done work in progress.

The bullpen has been sacrificed so that the starting pitching can be stronger. Since starting pitching is the most important aspect of a baseball team, I'd say that's a reasonable thing to fix first.

As far as the crumbling fundamentals, hard work can indeed make this club better. Many of the mistakes they make are not do to a lack of talent. It's lack of concentration. It's lack of repeatedly being successful in a pressure situation and knowing and trusting your teammates. This indeed can come with practice time and repetition.

have a good Monday everyone!  good night.

stealer6 - I think if you look at the Aaron Crow situation, Strasburg will realize he's not going to get a better offer next year than this year. If he doesn't sign, then the Pirates will offer him even less than the Nats are probably offering him, and he'll probably have to take it. But no, they are not going to pay $50M or $20M dollars for him.

Rockies and Cubs on the road, and the thug Brewers upon their return to PNC.  The Pirates will get a good taste of the playoff hunt even if it is only in the capacity of outsiders looking in.  A few meaningful wins that cause real angst to the fans of those teams could help erase the sting of these past 7 games.    

It was interesting to see that the Phillies had similar late inning bullpen implosion and anemic offensive number issues in getting swept by the Marlins this weekend.  We are not alone.  Also, anybody catch Velez's throw home in the Giants game?  Even our worst throws from the outfield do not even come close to that misfire.  

Here's a very interesting evaluation on what a realistic signing bonus might be for Strasburg...comes out to be $11M. I wonder how close this will come to truth if they sign him.

online.wsj.com/.../SB10001424052970204313604574330522719994590.html

******  RACE FOR THE 2010 Number 1 DRAFT PICK   ******

Stats thru Aug.8:

1.   Washington…….40 wins

2.   Kansas City……43 wins

3.   PIRATES…….. 45 wins

4.   Baltimore……..  46 wins

5.   San Diego……... 47 wins

6.   Cleveland …….. 48  wins

     Cincinnati……..  48 wins

*********************************************

errr....stats are thru AUG. 9

(you knew that!)

;-)

MarkInDallas -

You and I just seem to disagree.

If you have the best coaches in baseball, the best management team in all of sports, are on the field every day at 3pm, are working hard, and you still lose 8 games in a row, and are 21 games under .500, then I humbly submit to you that many of the mistakes are NOT lack of concentration; rather, they are lack of talent.

This is NH's team now, and it's terrible. Can't blame it on Davey anymore. In fact, the best player they have is Davey's!

Therefore, the losing is now NH's fault, and he will - deservedly - get the blame.

Yes, the minors are stronger. Will that equate to winning seasons for the PBC? No one knows - not you, not me, not NH.

For the FO to purposely sacrifice a season, which is what NH has done - and not only this season, but in all probability next season too - is unethical.

I submit that there is a huge moral wrong in purposely quitting on your major-league club's season in order to build your minor-league system.

Ask the wild-card contender in the West or East whether Quittsburgh's minor-league team hurts their chances, when there's a Central team in the race.

All I ask is for NH to tell us the truth, not feed us that baloney I read in the comments.

He's not telling the truth, and he knows it - that's what irritates me.

By the way - IF he turns it around - he will still have deserved every ounce of criticism he received during the losing, for the simple reason he assembled the team that lost.

Read the comments of the guys who escaped Pittsburgh - generally, they sound like men given a last-minute pardon by the governor.

Don't think that affects the attitude of the guys who are left? The Dukes, the Maholm's, the Doumit's, the Capps; yes, even the McCutchen's?

The constant unloading and tearing apart builds a culture of losing, a culture of negativity (as evidenced by the comments once they leave), and an unspoken desire to get the h*** out of Pittsburgh.

Does Neal ever think of that?

I was talking to a fellow and his wife who were down from Toronto to watch the redbirds.

I actually stated the conversation with my line that the greatest line drive in history came in a game between the Bucco's and redbirds off of Clemente's bat and Gibsons leg.

Anyways, he just come and said you guys have a ton of really good young talent and will be team reckined with when they grow together.

Just wanted to share this observation of the trades he had.

he said Jersey, of course I told him who I was, he says Jersey  you did not trade away anyone really really good and got really good prospects in return.

Until there's a fantasy league statistic that measures negativity, Huntington will never think of that aspect of team building.

$$$$$  BODY WATCH – ATTENDANCE AT MLB PARKS $$$$$

Stats thru 8/9/09 …

30. Oakland…….54 dates **952,077 total  **  17,631 avg.

29. Florida………54 dates **996,053 total  **  18,445 avg.

28. PIRATES …..55 dates ** 1,069,995 tot  **   19,454 avg.

27. Cleveland…..54 dates **1,215,747 tot  ** 22,513 avg.

26. Washington…58 dates ** 1,363,501 tot  **23,508 avg

1. NY Yanks …56 dates **2,557,196 tot   **   45,664 avg.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Morning Links Part 2

Play by Play Pitch by Pitch

scores.espn.go.com/.../playbyplay

Bullpen coughs up lead as Pirates drop 8th in a row

www.tribune-democrat.com/.../local_story_221232948.html

Bottom-feeding Pirates keep spending big on 2009 draft picks

www.google.com/.../ALeqM5gzTnfVGJaLC0h2VqjqU-ZyWAPCQA

Hillcats top Pelicans 4-2 to take series

www2.scnow.com/.../68597

THE OFFICIALLY UNOFFICIAL PBC BLOGS AND MLB LINKS: Part 1

Bleacher report--A New Era: Pittsburgh Pirates Spend Big on Draft for Second Straight Year

bleacherreport.com/.../show_full

Why Gavs--Ranking the Prospects

whygavs.com/.../ranking-prospects.html

Pittsburgh Lumber Company--Schumaker's PH Dinger Keys Cards Comeback

mvn.com/.../schumakers-ph-dinger-keys-card-comeback-sweep.html

Sandlot Swashbucklers--Indians' 9th Inning Effort Falls Short

mvn.com/.../indians-9th-inning-effort-falls-short.html

Sandlot Swashbucklers--Wins For the Rest of the Minors; Alvarez's 4 Hits; Herrera's 9th Win

mvn.com/.../wins-for-the-rest-of-the-minors-alvarezs-4-hits-herreras-9th-win.html

Wilbur Miller's Pirate Player Profiles

users.rcn.com/.../pirateprofiles.htm

Raise the Jolly Roger-Sunday's Minor League Roundup

raisethejollyroger.com/.../sundays-minor-league-roundup-6

Hyzdu Headquarters-Rolling On

hyzduhq.blogspot.com/.../rolling-on.html

The Green Weenie--Ya Get Better Odds at the Casino

oldbucs.blogspot.com/.../ya-get-better-odds-at-casino.html

@Dejan - Of course we know that Sanchez is wearing #21 for the Giants. I posted it in this blog the day of his first start. Sorry to have scooped you cubby.  j/k ;-)

Nice to see NH finally "man up" a little bit and accept some responsibility for the bullpen collapse.

@CuriousGeorge - I'm in near total agreement with your points concerning NH above. Any BS slung by him is going to be blogged back at him full force. It's not going to change anything, but my frustrations will be momentarily relieved.

Fans, players, coaches, the Front Office, we're all frustrated and we are going to be frustrated for a long time. That said, the Pirates may be on the right track and I pledge to compliment NH if he is eventually responsible for a return to success. Until then, his feet should remain buried in the fire.

Wow Eric Hinske I thought you were different.  I guess you signed here because you thought you would win the 3rd base job. But when Andy beat you out and started to play well...then the plans changed. I thought a lot more of you when I read your comments when you were first traded away.

If Jack Wilson reads this blog he is going to be mad this morning - a positive pr post on Freddie and Nyjer and nothing about him.

THE OFFICIALLY UNOFFICIAL PBC BLOGS AND MLB LINKS: Part 2

PBC Home Page--Finale slips away in hands of bullpen

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

PBC Homepage--Basics remain focus for young Pirates

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

PBC Home Page--Inbox: Will lefty be acquired for 'pen?

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

Rumbunter--Snoop, Spike, Dr. Dre, Carmelo and Chris Brown: Fake Pittsburgh Fans

rumbunter.com/.../snoop-spike-dr-dre-carmelo-and-chris-brown-fake-pittsburgh-fans

MLB Transactions

www.cbssports.com/.../transactions

Bucco Fans--No Need to Call Up Clement

www.buccofans.com/.../pirates-notebook-no-need-to-call.html

Bucco Fans--Pirate Draft Pick Signing Tracker

www.buccofans.com/.../2009-pittsburgh-pirates-draft-pick.html

MLB Trade Rumors

www.mlbtraderumors.com/pittsburgh_pirates

North Side Notch--Monday Notes: A day off

www.northsidenotch.com/.../monday-notes-day-off.html

Monday posting of the Rules of the Road

BASIC INFORMATION ABOUT THE BLOG

As more people join this  community a number of questions arise.  Here are some clarifications.

1) Many of us who post here treat this as a discussion forum, not as a traditional blog.  Dejan's post sets the table but we respond to each other more than we respond to specifics of Dejan's post.

2) Many posters ask "why do my posts say 2:30 pm when ikt only 11 am"  To change the time click on your name or avatar, then click on edit your profile, click on site options, about halfway down you can set the time.

3) When some posts "OS" they are referring to the "Other Stuff" thread, which is usually posted during the off season.  The OS is for non-baseball talk.

4)  Throughout the day, as stories break, Dejan will upload a new thread.  When you see the term "ants marching"  that simply means a new thread has been posted and most of the posters move to the new thread and start posting there.   Going to a new thread helps keep things flowing as we often have over 100 or even 200 posts on the original thread.

5) Instructions for uploading an avatar can be found by clicking my name, BK's name, or Mad's name.  We all have the instructions on our announcements page.  Many find avatars make following the posts easier.  The photo must be on your computer and the avatar will not appear instantly.

6)  Sign in w/ Nurse Cratchet for your straight jacket, meds, and room assignment

7)  As Dejan reminded us the other day, this thread is for baseball talk and the OS is for other topics

8)  Please read the 'guide to commenting' before you post" A link to the guide to commenting on the blog is located on the left near the top of the page in the section labeled  "Authors"

9) Do not post entire articles from other sources. - It is an act of illegal copyright infringement.   Just post links to the story

I surely left something out but hopefully covered the basics

Attaboy Nyjer. Keep those Nats winning, If only we had traded a quality ballplayer to KC for a prospect I'd feel better about the Pirates chances of having a number one pick.

As it stands, we are five wins ahead of Washington, and 3 ahead of KC, or as I like to put it,

5 behind Washington and 3 behind KC in "The Race to the cellar" for the number one draft choice.

When NH said he planned to build through the draft, I never figured he would be diabolical enough to trade players to teams almost as bad as us, so that they could shoot past us on our free-fall in the standings. Who knew that his plan to put a team on the field that resembles the results of a milk and molasses enema could have such a Machiavellian point. I take back everything I ever said about him. He DOES want to build through the draft, he just wants to do it with number one draft choices.

It seems like just a couple weeks ago fellow inmates were pointing out how the Pirates were only 8.5 out of the Wildcard. Now we are only 5 out of the worst spot in baseball. Hope the Pirates are out of town for the G-20 summit in September. Wouldn't want to worsen the worldwide malaise by making anyone take in a Pirate game.

Ahhh, I feel better now.

Daily Neal Huntington Performance Update

Club Record as GM thru 8/9/2009:

===========================

Bonifay       - 616 - 775 = .442 %

Littlefield     - 421 - 549 = .434 %

Huntington  - 112 - 161 = .410 %

DK,

"Even the most rebuilding of rebuilding GMs eventually shifts the focus to the major league results, and that number alone suggests it will be sooner rather than later."

Is there any truth to the rumor that Neal was recently overheard saying...."Winning at the big league level is overrated"?

Any takers on who'll have the worst record when it's all over?

We'll be #1 again, in sucking.

When Frank and Neal kept saying that .500 is not the goal, I did not realize that what they really meant was that .400 was their goal.

With the signing of the 3 pitchers over the weekend...here is an update on GM Neal Huntington’s second draft class…

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<  DRAFT CLASS REVIEW  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Today’s Topic:  2009 Pirates DRAFT Class (stats thru 8/9/09)

1.    Tony Sanchez – C – State Col. & West Va. – Bats R

3 HR  24 RBI  .321  **  28 G, 106 AB, 16 R, 34 H,  21K, 14 BB, 1 SB  **  7 errors

1A.   Victor Black – RHP – State College

1-0,  4.96 ERA,  **  8 G,  16.1  IP, 18 H,  0 HR, 17 K,  11 BB

2.     Brooks Pounders – RHP – GCL Pirates

2-1,  2.04 ERA  **   6 G,  17.2 IP, 11 H, 0 HR,  15 K, 4 BB

3.     Evan Chambers – OF – State College – Bats R

2 HR  11 RBI .218 **  33 G, 110 AB, 21R,  24H,  45K , 29 BB, 3 SB  **  3 error

4.    Zach Dodson – LHP -   SIGNED on 8/7/09

5.    Nathaniel Baker -  LHP -  State College

0-0,  0.00 ERA  **   2 G,  4 IP,  3 H,  0 HR,  2 K, 0 BB

6.    Zach Von Rosenberg – RHP – SIGNED on 8/8/09

7.    Trent Stevenson – RHP -  SIGNED on 7/24/09  

8.    Colt Cain – LHP – SIGNED on 8/7/09

9.      Brock Holt – 2B/SS – State College – Bats L

5 HR  19 RBI  .250  **  46 G, 176 AB, 26 R, 44H, 27K, 18 BB, 7 SB  **  5  errors

10.     Jospeh Schoenfeild – C – Unsigned

11.      Aaron Baker – 1B – State College -  Bats L

1 HR  16  RBI  .233  ** 37 G, 129 AB, 20 R, 30 H, 34K, 22BB, 0 SB  **  0 errors

12.    Jeffrey Inman – RHP – Unsigned

13.    John Walker Gourley – SS – GCL Pirates – Bats R

0 HR  2 RBI   .200  ** 15 G, 40 AB, 6 R, 8 H, 9 K, 6 BB, 3 SB, ** 4 errors

Of Special Note:

17.    Matthew Den Dekker – CF – Unsigned

18.    Jordan Cooper  - RHP – Unsigned

29.    Michael Heller – RHP - Unsigned

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

DK - about the summit.

When it was announced that the G-20 summit was coming to Pittsburgh a couple of months ago, my husband and I looked at the schedule to see if the Bucs were in town.  They are - and even have an afternoon game.

For those Allegheny County officials, who are wondering where to place all the arrested protesters....forget the jails of the neighboring counties.

PNC Park may provide the perfect venue: plenty of room to hold our out of town "visitors", a view of the convention center for those detained, an atmosphere which is ripe to protest economic disparity (is this a great fit, or what) -

I'm sure the Pirates could come up with special versions of the Pierogy race, Q&A, and other assorted in-game entertainment. (Hey, Joe from Seattle, do you want to post bond or go for what's in the Box of Mystery?)

Let's make the G20 our 10th man!  

For those who might be interested in Freddy Sanchez's $8.0M contract extention drive....

As of today, Freddy has 414 plate appearances in 93 games played. (4.45 PA's per game average).

The Giants have 49 games remaining.

Assuming the Giants play Freddy nearly everyday, his $8.0M option would vest with 7 games remaining in the season.

So in other words, he is still on pace to vest his option during the 2nd to last week of the season.

Here is the math:

414 PA's in 93 games played = 4.45 PA's per game.

49 Giant games remaining x 4.45 = 218 PA's

414 + 218 = 632 PA's for the season = $8.0M for Freddy in 2010.

Good morning everyone.  Back and mostly recovered from a long trip.  Just in time to see 8 L's in a row.  Great.  Who was in charge here while i was out?

Joey Bats,

I really like your update to the # 1 pick in next seasons draft. - Please keep that one going everyday if it's not too much trouble.

Mr. TTW...

Your idea is fantastic!

...but could be labeled as "cruel and unusual punishment" ...and may be against the Geneva Convention

North Side North in the Blog Links part 2 is keeping the Race the race to # 1 standing updated just like a regular division standings.

It is the last link in THE OFFICIALLY UNOFFICIAL PBC BLOGS AND MLB LINKS: Part 2 so no need to post them standing here--just use the links--that is what they are there for.

"He's been unbelievable since he got here. I think he knows exactly what his role is: to get on base however he can. And then once he gets on base, he can do whatever he wants."  -Ryan ZImmerman.

On Sunday, Morgan went 2 for 4 with two runs, two stolen bases, a walk and an RBI. He has batted .362 with 18 stolen bases and 27 runs since arriving in the District. But more important than his statistics is the impact his offensive production has had on the rest of the lineup.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I repeat my 1st Mantra (JR has to go, is my other):  The NYJER trade was the absolute worst of the NH era.  And these comments don't even touch on NYJER's positive influence in the clubhouse, something I suspect is sorely lacking right now in Pittsburgh

Notebook:  "Russell also had a bad strategy day."

DK - You have now mastered the art of the understatement

In the category of sometimes you just can't win:

- Hostage, who has little good to say about Neal, gave him credit for the Morgan-Milledge trade as a clear example of the kind of sell high / buy low trade this team needs to make

- CTBucsFan, who has little good to say about Neal, gave him the raspberry for the Morgan-Milledge trade as a clear example of the absolute worst of the NH era.

No offense intended to either gentleman, but i guess you can't win for losing.  (boy, ain't that the truth?)

Mr.Morgan has been batting first and playing center field since his trade, he would not be doing either here.

If his best role and he shines off the start, then you have to wish the best for him.

I hope he hits .320 his whole time playing.

Running the bases after the game was really cool for the kids.

Back from my trip to the burgh.  I caught Saturday night's game.  I think I would have been screaming watching it on TV but it had a bit of a different feel at the ballpark.  It felt like we were in it all the way except one inning where the wheels fell off the cart.  Overall, a great experience.

And a great big Gaaaahhhhhhh!!!!!  I missed jersey joe's email so I did not get the message that asylum mates were meeting in the GA area.  So sorry that I wasn't able to stop by and meet everyone face to face.  I'm taking my wife and inlaws to the August 21st game against Cincy in Pittsburgh and we'll have ticket up in that section with the three restaurant/bars.

I'm going to Chicago this Saturday to catch the bucs against the Cubs.  It will be interesting to see if Cubs fans at Wrigley are as rude and nasty as Sox fans were earlier this year.

Dejan wrote: "Even the most rebuilding of rebuilding GMs eventually shifts the focus to the major league results, and that number alone suggests it will be sooner rather than later."

I'm personally glad he wrote that.  Recognizing that it's Dejan's observation, not Neal's comment, it still makes me feel that my Year End 2010 line in the sand is reasonable.

Hos - if you're still out there, it appears that Neal and the FO have already crossed your line.  Others in the asylum keep moving the line back based on latest moves. (i've read 2011-2013, some in response to my 2010 posting.)  The fact that i seem to be in the middle of all camps - and NOBODY seems to stand with me - makes me both confident and nervous. (I'm NOT suggesting that Dejan stands with me based on this morning's story.  Just saying the statement bucked me up a bit.)

Circumstances and others' decisions (Neal, etc) won't get me to change my line.  My line is my line, and it's announced about a season and a third in advance so there's no confusion, as well as to be fair to all parties being "evaluated."

JJ - running the bases DURING the game would be REALLY cool, but i don't think i'll get much of a chance to do that.

Morning mates, good tidings to you and yours

I said this yesterday and I'll say it again.  Kudos to NH for the draft siginings.  I always complained that the FO talked the talked but did not walk the walk.  This time NH did just as he said he would.  

I'm hoping for a few more above slot signings though ; }

GGG - "rude and nasty"...Chicago.

Nothing left to say to that.

@ Drew -

Welcome back.

I actually think, overall, NH has done a good job with the trades - I just take issue with the NYJER move (not to mention the Burnett component), and I felt so strongly about it I called the Bucs offices upon DK's informing us when it was a 'rumor', and i asked the young lady who answered to implore NH not to make that move.  NYJER was the heart and soul of this team and that loss is being, and will be for several years, felt.

Overall, I think NH has done what he has to do with respect to the system-wide mess he inhereted.  

My only other real problem with NH now is that he will not s--tcan the manager.  He and FC shoved "accountability" down our throats when they arrived, yet he is wholly failing to hold JR accountable for some of the worst game management I have ever witnessed - on any level.

Notwithstanding the lack of talent JR has on the roster, his managing has cost us at least a dozen games this year, if not more.  He HAS to go if NH and FC are going to maintain any credibility.

"JJ - running the bases DURING the game would be REALLY cool, but i don't think i'll get much of a chance to do that."

Drew:  Are you really Andrew McCuthchen in disguise?

@Drew - Oy gevalt.

Positive things to say about the 25 man major league roster:

Cutch is the most talented player we have had since Barry Bonds

Duke has regained his juke

Cedeno looks like a darn good shortstop

uhhhhhhh

Adam Laroche is not on it

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Drew--You are not alone on 2010.  I am with you on 2010.  I also chose that in a discussion with, go figure, NuHo.  JAL at the same time chose 2011. Both were well before the trade deadline and also well before your agreement with NuHo on the 2009 draft.  I'm not suggesting that should make you feel anymore confident (maybe less), just maybe less alone. ;-)

GGG - oy vey iz mir!

Drew and Arriba - I'm looking more for incremental improvement.  We'll be a bit better in 2010, but still bad.  We should be respectable but no great shakes in 2011, and I believe we'll very good by 2012/2013.  I wish I was more optimistic, but I think it's going to be measured in tiny steps and not leaps.

GGG

one wild card is the pitchers they just signed.  If even one them is as good as some think they could be on fast track to the majors.  However, very few young pitchers hit the majors running--se David Price, who looked great at the end of last season but is only 4-5 with a 4.91 ERA this season.  

Drew - MOT or just meshuganah? Biz hundert un tsvantsik - maybe then you'll see a winning season.  Heyoooooohhhhh!!  Thank you, thank you... I'll be playing all week here tonight.

Drew,

Just stopped in for a moment to lurk.....

I disagree with DK that Neal will expend any significant amount of time or resources on the current big league roster.

I honestly don't believe that it matters at all to the FO or Nutting how well or poorly the club plays. - To them it only matter what it pays.

I agree that probably any of the other 29 GM's would take notice of how horrible a product they have right now and attempt to do something about it......I just don't think Neal will.

I mean he did very little the past two off seasons to fortify or improve a last place club, why would he do anything different now? - He seems to think his glib empty sound bytes about how the coaching staff is outworking all the other coaching staffs in the majors is all he really needs to do to address the matter.

IMO its not about today or 2010 major league wise, its hard to see them get the bejeebers knocked out of them daily, but why would we build for today?

For now NH gets a free pass from me, especially if he spends the rest of the draft money on high upside guys, not organizational filler, I think we might have gotten some filler with all the trades.

2012 or Bust, ok, maybe 2013 or bust?? ; }

Wilver,

I have to agree about Cedeno. - At first I was skeptical when I saw what he had been hitting in Seattle but after seeing him play a few games, I am optimistic about him.

He is pretty darn good defensively which is always my top priority for a shortstop, but he also appears to be quite athletic. - I think maybe his bat could come around.

Overall I am optimistic he could be a decent guy for us at short for 3 or 4 years.

Younger than Jack, less expensive than Jack, more athletic than Jack, and maybe better offensive potential as Jack, almost as good a fielder as Jack.

Speaking as a Jack fan, I have to say that trade might not have been so bad afterall.

I hope Neal doesn't cave under public pressure and bring in some garbage, stop gap free agents next year.

If you're going to break  records losing, do it in style.

If Neal wants to sign a quality free agent second baseman to a 2 or 3 year contract. That would be different.

As long as his name is not Ramon Vasquez.

Trip G,

As I explained to DieHard last week, IMO Huntington should be required to produce better results in 2010 in order to continue in his role.

IMO it is fair for us to expect this.....

2010 - Incremental improvement over 2009 to .450ish range.

2011 - Incremental improvement over 2010 to .480ish range.

2012 - Exceed .500 and actually compete.

IMO anything less than that at any point should result in Huntington's termination.

That said, putting aside what I think we should be able to expect, just seeing what little Huntington has done during the two off seasons he has been here, I think he will do little to improve this club over the winter and that the overall major league product will bottom out in 2010 with the worst performance we have seen during the past 17 years.

My issue with NH is not that the Pirates had to rebuild, nor withn the fact that the minor league larders were empty.

My issue is with the so called quality he is getting. It seems in every trade but the Sanchez trade he has stressed quantity over quality. I personally don't care if West Virginia is ever any good. I only care if West Virginia has exceptional players that will help the major league team.I don't think NH feels the same way. In trading McLouth, rather than get a fifth outfeilder with no power, no patience and now no average, and a pitcher who someone here correctly identified with Kip Wells, maybe it would have been better to get one really good prospect, or not make the trade at all.

Why trade Snell, when he can help the franchise? OR more groassly, why trade Grabow when he can get you a sandwhich draft pick? Why trade Burnett for a guy who can't throw strikes? Why trade Gorzellany, who may be better on his own than either pitcher we picked up..

It is the Pirates ability to scout talent I am most concerned about. Morris  is obvciously not worth what they gave up. Karstens is nothintg. Ohlendorf MAY be something, and Tabata LOOKs like the real deal. But why turn your major league roster into excrement? Why drive fans away from the Pirates?

Why?

Why?

Why?

It seems like he is a sniper using a shotgun. Sure it makes a loud noise and may hit something. But eventually, you miss the target and then you die.

Demery,

what, Vazqueze isn't worth being one of the highest paid Pirates?

777777777777777777777777777777777777777

From the home of Trader Neal’s June and July Fire Sale…we’ll review the progress of the trades.

7777777    Salary Dump  OR Great Trade?   7777777

You Decide: Here’s the schedule of how we review the churning of the 2009 Pirates roster. It’s called TRADE TRACKER…..

MADD MONDAY – McLouth trade

TUMULTUOUS TUESDAY – Morgan trade

WACKY WEDNESDAY –  Hinske trade  

THRIFTY THURSDAY –  LaRoche trade (yes…Braves, now)  

FRANTIC FRIDAY – Sanchez trade

SLAPHAPPY SATURDAY –Wilson/Snell trade

STUPENDOUS SUNDAY – Grabow/Gorzo trade

777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777

******** Nate McLouth Trade revisited *******

Here’s how the players in the McLouth-Morton trade have performed for their respective teams since the June 3.  

Stats thru Aug.9 …

Nate McLouth – Atlanta – OF – Bats L

6 HR 22 RBI .259  ** 54 G  220 AB 38 R 57H  45K 27 BB 10 SB ** .343 OBP .418 SLG

Charlie Morton – Pittsburgh – RHP

2-5,  3.81 ERA  **  10 G, 49.2 IP,  53 H, 4 HR,  33K, 18 BB  **  1.43 WHIP .275 OP.AVG

Gorkys Hernandez – Altoona – OF – Bats R

2 HR 18 RBI  .251  **  59 G, 227 AB,  26 R, 57 H, 48K, 17 BB, 6 SB ** .304 OBP .330 SLG

Jeff Locke – Lynchburg - LHP

2-4,  4.61 ERA ** 12 G,  52.2 IP, 65 H,  4HR, 36 K, 14 BB  **  1.51 WHIP  .311 OP.AVG

*********************************************************

IMO the only avenue Neal will have to improve the current club would be through trades because I think he burnt the very last bridge they had in terms of luring free agents to Pittsburgh.

After this latest and most drastic roster dump, especially the McLouth deal right after he had signed an extension and the club said he was part of the core.....I don't see any legitimate major league free agent worth anything signing here for a very long time.

And I don't see what sense it would make for Neal to turn around and undo what he just did and trade some of the prospects he acquired for immediate help?

I think he has no other choice but to buckle down and weather the storm. - Knowing how sensitive Bob Nutting is to public criticism, who knows? Maybe Neal went to far and it might cost him his job sooner rather than later.

Doc,

"what, Vazqueze isn't worth being one of the highest paid Pirates?"

Have they planned Ramon Vasquez Bobblehead Night yet?

@Demery44

Agree completely with your post, bandaids are not what we need, been there, tried that, one reason we are sitting where we are.

You know, I wouldn't mind a couple of more trades this month

I'm not sure what our return has been for all these trades, but what the heck, go all the way

Hey guys...had to drop off for a bit but here are some responses to earlier comments:

- GGG, yes, MOT.  Probably the Lost T

- Hos, i get your expectation that Neal won't address.  I dont have an opinion, just an expectation and coming (but not yet) judgment with no predisposition of result but a hope for a positive one

- Arriba, glad to know i'm not out there on the plank by myself

- GGG and others picking 2011/2012...i also think i understand your expectation.  I think it relates in part to the chess pieces that Neal has built to date and a realistic expectation that it may take them that long to congeal.  You may be right about the last but i'm not looking at the "tactical" level...I'm not building my timeline based on moves made but rather on believe that some level of serious judgment should be made after 3 full years.  My timeline probably assumes some gap-filling moves at MLB level must be made in offseason to allow young players to "marinate" without more lousy short term results...but my judgment won't be based on whether there are or aren't off season moves.  it will be based on YE 2020 results.  Those are a lot of words on my part saying I see your logic and don't disagree with it, i'm just choosing to go in a different direction.

Hos - i think it's dangerous for this team to schedule and hold any bobblehead nights in any given night until after non-waiver trade deadline.  Do you think they could announce TBD Bobblehead Nights?

kidding.  C'mon guys, i'm just KIDDING!

meant to write "in any given YEAR until after NW trade deadline"

Doc wrote:

My issue is with the so called quality he is getting. It seems in every trade but the Sanchez trade he has stressed quantity over quality. I personally don't care if West Virginia is ever any good. I only care if West Virginia has exceptional players that will help the major league team.I don't think NH feels the same way. In trading McLouth, rather than get a fifth outfeilder with no power, no patience and now no average, and a pitcher who someone here correctly identified with Kip Wells, maybe it would have been better to get one really good prospect, or not make the trade at all.

_______________________________________________

I'll take quantity over quality much of the time and here's why:  If you make the trade for one prospect, you're taking a risk, the risk of injury and/or the risk the prospect doesn't pan out.  You can't scout away future injury and depsite the best scouting (and I don't think the PBC's scouts are the best-- until they prove otherwise, they're no better than average), prospects sometimes just don't pan out.  If you give up one player and get back three or more prospects, you minimize that risk.  Add that to the fact GM's baseball-wide don't want to give up their top-notch prospects for...  well, for anything (or so it seems to me), and I kind of like the returns on the trades.  Especially since we seem to stockpiling pitchers, or more accurately, guys that could be pitchers someday.

You get a bunch of prospects into the system and it gives you options.  Hang onto a bunch of average-to-above-average major leaguers (and I don't put Bay into that category, by the way) and I'm not sure what it gives you.  There's a risk in hanging onto players as well, and it seems to get overlooked when we start to analyze trades after the fact.

Just my opinion.

off to a an briefing--back mid-afternoon carry on

"Maybe Neal went to far and it might cost him his job sooner rather than later."

Do you really still not understand what this organization's plan is?

And if anything, Neal has secured his job for at least a couple more years.  I expect Neal to get an extension sometime between now and the end of October.

@21sthebest: "And if anything, Neal has secured his job for at least a couple more years.  I expect Neal to get an extension sometime between now and the end of October."

I'm not disagreeing that this owner and president may allow goal line to move back, just saying i wouldnt.  Three years, in my view, is reasonable.  Especially since they've always said from beginning and continue to say they're not rebuilding.  I'm just saying when and how i would evaluate if i was owner.  i may be stating the obvious, but i recognize that i am not the owner and my evaluation is not relevant to anyone but me.

21, i'm HOPING you're wrong re: goal line moving back, but you may be absolutely on target.

Well, I hope everyone is happy?  How bout that Big Bull Rider (I hate that nickname so much..sooo much)?  Here's my 1st criticism of Neal in awhile.  He didn't do enough to get Matt Capps off this team.  He's terrible.  At least Neal got Dodson, Cain, and von Rosenburg.  It's a wash, but Capps better be gone during the winter meetings.  There's a sucker born every minute.  Let's see if Neal can find 1 to take Capps.  He found 1 to take Ian (6 BBs in 1 1/3...I guess Seattle looks a lot like Pittsbugh?).

I'm not going to give JR much grief about bringing in Capps.  He had been very good his last few outings, including 2 very strong innings the other night.  He's the closer, for better or worse, and it's not like the other bullpen options leave you brimming with confidence right now.

Drew, I'm not convinced that management has ever established a "goal line."  But the one thing that I'm not sure any of us has really come to grips with is how bad our minor leagues were before Frank and Neal got here.  Could very possibly be the worst minor leagues in baseball for years.  And without a strong minor league system, we're not getting to the playoffs, let alone a .500 season, regardless of what free agents we were to sign.

A process like this (completely revamping the organization from top to bottom) I'd say should take 7-10 years.  Neal started in 2007, so I'd say he's got until 2015 to produce a division winner (can't say WS b/c it's tough to expect Neal to take the "worst franchise in pro sports" and make them world champs in under a decade) .  I'd like to see above .500 baseball (maybe not post-season b/c I can't say what the PBC's division or NL will be like) by 2012, but if he gets a division winner in 2015, success will be counted in my book (as you can see, I'm much softer in my expectations than most...I must work for Bob Nutting).

I don't know about NH getting an extension.  How long is he under contract for, anyway?

It's clear that with the moves he made, the eye is not on 2010.  Although I agree with the overall philosophy regarding his trades, they're going to have to start showing results around 2011 or so.  The plan is in place, but it has to be executed, i.e. the prospects he has acquired are going to have to bear fruit.

@ FormerSoxFan

How could you fault JR?  Capps (who is terrible) has been the least terrible (lately) in a bullpen full of guys who just can't get anyone out right now.  It's kind of like picking the smartest kid in the special class (I apologize to anyone if that offends you, just couldn't think of a better way to put it).  At some point, Matty Capps aka "The Big Bull Rider" (every time Tim Neverette or Greg Brown says that I wanna punch my TV or Iphone (MLB At Bat 2009...lifesaver)) is going to have to perform consistently and I don't ever see that happening.  He is not the man.  He can't be the man.  Winter meetings, he needs to be on another team.  Period.

21sthebest:

"But the one thing that I'm not sure any of us has really come to grips with is how bad our minor leagues were before Frank and Neal got here.  Could very possibly be the worst minor leagues in baseball for years."

=======================================================

As a point of reference, here were the Top 20 prospects in the Bucs' organization in January 2008 (just 19 months ago) according to the Baseball Prospect Book:

1. Andrew McCutchen, OF, Grade A-

2. Steven Pearce, OF-1B, Grade B+

3. Neil Walker, 3B, Grade B

4. Daniel Moskos, LHP, Grade B

5. Brad Lincoln, RHP, Grade C+

6. Brian Bixler, SS, Grade C+

7. Shelby Ford, 2B, Grade C+

8. Duke Welker, RHP, Grade C+

9. Brian Friday, SS, Grade C+

10. Andrew Walker, C, Grade C+

11. Jamie Romak, OF, Grade C

12. Nyjer Morgan, OF, Grade C

13. Brad Corley, OF, Grade C

14. Bryan Bullington, RHP, Grade C

15. Matt Peterson, RHP, Grade C

16. Romulo Sanchez, RHP, Grade C

17. Quincy Latimore, OF, Grade C

18. Marcus Davis, OF, Grade C

19. Tony Watson, LHP, Grade C

20. Josh Sharpless, RHP, Grade C

Yikes.

Thanks for posting that FormerSoxFan.  I'm anxious to see BA's list when it comes out this January.

I was pretty pumped up after the Young Bucs started out 2-0 after the final trade. But now I am more looking forward to the Bryce Harper sweepstakes ...

Couple of thoughts

To say a legitimate free agent won't sign here is ridiculous.  If the Pirates pay the guy enough, most likely overpay, he and his agent will walk here.  The problem is, the Pirates would be nuts to do that now because they are rebuilding.  And the top free agents also require the surrender of a top pick depending on how they are classified.

Are things really, really that bad?  Almost everyone of these eight games, the PIrates have had the lead going in to the sixth.  The bullpen is what is killing this team right now (and the lousy fielding and other fundamentals).  A bullpen can be cleaned up quickly in the off season and that's where some money can be spent.   I would be less optimistic if we were getting blasted every game.

Another reason why we are losing late is our horrible bench which should be expected after the trades.  A few months ago we had Young, Monroe, Heinski.  They have been replaced with Cruz, Salazaar and Vasquez.   The bench can also easily be fixed in the off season.  And to say no one will sign here is also crazy.  Monroe and Heinski weren't flushed with a ton of offers at millions of dollars.  There are always guys like them who have the option to sign for around a milllion a year or not be on a roster at all.

Third.  Someone may need to correct me on this but draft watch to see if the Pirates can get the first pick is also a waste of time.  If I remember correctly, the first pick alternates between leagues and then records dictate who is second on down.  So this year, an American League team gets it.  And if the Nats don't sign Strasburg, then the Nats will get the second pick.   The way things are going, and the Pirates finish 3rd overall, they may get the 5th pick in the draft because Ackley hasn't signed either.  

A lot of talk but Nut Hostage about how the Pirates have to sign at least 28 picks or NH lied.  I'm sorry, but I will take quality over quantity any day.  Yes, late round picks end up being All Stars and 1st round picks are busts.  But here is something else to think about.  It was mentioned in the article with the last two signings.  They really don't have any place to put these guys right now.   With the influx of players at the minor league system with the trades and seasons ending, there isn't a lot of playing time available.  So it may not be prudent to sign that many. It may be prudent to sign the best 20.  

Let's look at NH's trades

1. Nady - Consensus win for the Pirates

2. Bay - Heavy for Boston but can change based on what Morris or Hansen can still do.  Also, Bay is a Free Agent

3. McClouth - Pirates McCutcheon is out-performing McClouth.  You can argue that McClouth could play RF.  But look at Moss' and Young's June and Jones' July and still those guys are out performing McClouth.

4. Morgan - Nationals.  

5. Wilson/Snell - Pirates  Cedeno is at least an equal and Snell, is well, Snell.  

6. Sanchez - Giants but that may change in two years or sooner

7. Gorzo/Grabow - Cubs. But again could change.  Very short term, Grabow holds at least three of the leads we've blown. But again, he's gone in six weeks and Hart start wasn't that bad and we'll see how Acavadio (sp?) works out.  One of those two may be better than Gorzo.

So by my scorecard it is 4-3 against NH.  But that could switch in a year or two.

Keep it going Buccos!!!!  Lets keep losing and lets keep adding mroe players....trust me, this time it actaully smells like we are going to turn the ship around or I will walk home from Philly!!!!

The signings are critical since Littlefield had one good draft pick (Cutch) in all of his years.  We are stockpiling right now and should be in better shape within a few years from both a player standpoint and a trading/bargaining standpoint.  There are a few guys still out there:

1. Inman: Stanford kid, too smart to sign after falling off late in the year.  Not worth the risk especially since Stanford has not produced a decent pro pitcher in years.

2. Schoenfield: another catcher after taking Tony S with the first overall pick, not worth spreading the wealth here.

3. Giaradina: a prospect from the summer showcase rounds, couldnt get outs at UCF and didnt do anythign special at U of Tampa, next!

4. Den Dekker: nice athlete to have on the team, but inconsistant at the plate and no true history with wood.  Pay him for his ability but you cant expect much in return other then a 4th outfielder.

5. Heller: no chance here either, kid blew out his ACL about a month ago and is schedule to have surgury at U of Florida.  Sad since early reports had him as high as 97 this spring.  GO Gators!  Maybe him and Den Dekker can be road roommates next year?

I think we have pretty much got all we could out of the '09 draft, which was a good haul after last week, of course Baseball America will drop a "C" rating on us since we are the Bucs, but there is promise here!

Now all we have to do is get the big league club to continue to tank.....if the situation works out well it could be perfect as long as Strausberg doesnt sign. This way we will be guaranteed to get one of the two best prospects in years at 1 or 2..........still think the safer play is Bryce Harper here!!!

@OrigDanno

I believe they did away with the alternating draft league format. I may be wrong, but I think the top drafting position now goes to the team with the worst record, regarless of league affiliation.

21--gotta disagree with you on the minors.  I think everyone on this blog, with the possible exception of PAMT, is aware that the Pirates minor league system was in a complete shambles when the FO took over.  

I have also been wondering and expecting, however, that Neal would get an extension in the offseason.  Doesn't mean he will survive the extension, but he will get it.

@ All

If the Bucs get the #1 pick and Harper and Strasburg are there and they go for Strasburg....

I'll be quite the mad man.

BRYCE HARPER #1 PICK IN 2010.  WE CAN'T CONTINUE ON WITH THE POLICIES OF THE LAST 8 (16+) YEARS! WE NEED CHANGE! YES WE CAN! YES WE CAN!

If anyone hasn't seen Bryce Harper yet, I suggest you go to YouTube and check him out. Stud. STud. STUd. STUD!

"21--gotta disagree with you on the minors.  I think everyone on this blog, with the possible exception of PAMT, is aware that the Pirates minor league system was in a complete shambles when the FO took over."

Arriba, my point is that it's much worse than a complete shambles.  I think there's a lot of sentiment that we were a player or two away before this season.  I wouldn't have minded seeing us take a stab, but I think it could have also set the org back even further, if that's even possible.  I think what Neal and Frank are doing are the only way to give us a chance to compete year after year after year.  But like I said, I would've take a chance even if it means delaying that plan.

"Are things really, really that bad?" referring to the product on the field now.

Yes

I will repeat---looking forward to a Bryce Harper signing is a fool's errand.

Another meaningless comparison--Neal vs. Littlefield---we all, and I mean ALL get it.  Neal is better than Littlefield.  

@OrigDanno -re - trades

I humbly disagree with the PBC winning the McLouth trade, like I said over the weekend Morton reminds me of Kip Wells, nibbles, lots of pitches for inning, Gorkys has a head problem and Locke is not doing well, right now, IMO Atlanta wins that one.

Draft - don't know when it changed but it is worst record first  Three of the top 4 picks this year were from National league (wash, SD and good guys)

@GFT - Heller, heck I'd still take a shot at him ; }

@ Arriba re: Bryce Harper

Hey, we can hope can't we?  And with the way this 25 looks right now, I don't think it's THAT unrealistic.

Thanks Finer.  Wasn't sure.  I know the Nats had the 1st this year and Rays in 2008.  Wasn't sure if Upton was 2007 or 2006.  Owe you one.

21the best

Sorry.  The 2009 Pirates were not a player or two away, even if those players were CC and Texeria.  (And that would have pushed the payroll over $100 million).  Neither was the 2008 with the outfield of Nady, Bay and McClouth unless you signed a stud at first, third, and two top of the rotation starters, and at least one quality reliever.

That's why this team needed to start over.

Doesn't Harper have some goofy, convoluted plan to evade the draft so he can play for the Yankees or something?

I think the McLouth trade has the potential to be a huge winner for us.  Morton's ERA with us is 3.81 and I think Gorkys has the potential to be very good.  And between those two, that's 11 years under our control.

OrigDanno,

I think you're probably correct.

Why Didn't I---I'm sorry I wasn't  clearer--I absolutely think we can get to the worst record in the league this year and get the first pick. No argument.  I just am 100% convinced that we (BN) would not be able to sign him.  For example, just think what "internal value" Neal and FC would put on him?  End of story. Plus, apparently the CBA is up in 2011, so there will be a great incentive for Boras to hold him out and he's only what, 16 or 17?

Doesn't Harper have some goofy, convoluted plan to evade the draft so he can play for the Yankees or something?

=======================================================

The only thing I know of is that he got his GED (after Soph. year in HS) so he could go to JuCo so he could enter the draft.  I haven't heard anything about his play for the Yankees plan, but that doesn't mean there isn't 1.  If anyone has any info regarding the scenario SteveP put out there, much appreciated.

Nice to see another former Pirate have such nice things to say about his former employer.

My thoughts on the losing streak and the rest of the season in general: Yes, the streak has been very frustrating. The bullpen has really struggled and at times the fundamentals have looked like Major League..... not professional baseball but the movie. However, I don't think it's been all that bad. The team has been in just about every game that they have lost.

When the Pirates had that 13 game losing streak in '06, highlighted by that sweep in KC, you knew knew that just about every day, they weren't even going to put up a fight.

Just about everyone on this team is fighting for an extended future in the majors. I don't think the Pirates will win many games for the rest of the year but I don't see them just mailing in games late in the season like has happened in previous years.

@Biz

Have you seen Nate's stats?  How could you say that the Braves won the deal?  At best, it's a push.  Nate has been worse for the Braves than he was with us.

@NH

I can't even begin to believe why you would think that FC and NH don't care about winning.  It would be career suicide for them.  Why would anyone want to hire them ever again?  You might disagree with the way that they are doing it, but there is no doubt in my mind that both want to win.

I know that in the feature on Bryce Harper in SI a few weeks ago, he said that his dream was to play for the Yankees. If the Pirates draft him, he might just pull a JD Drew and flat out refuse to sign. Also, he has the option of going to a Division I college if things don't work out. Might be something to consider for those who want him to get drafted so badly.

@ Arriba

My bad. I kinda thought that's what you meant by fool's errand, but was unsure so I went that way with it.  Also, Arriba, is Harper a Boras client or are you assuming he'll go with Boras? I don't know who his "advisor" is, so I just want to clarify.

Also, the PBC did get Pedro Alvarez inked, so I gotta give Neal the benefit of the doubt that he could get Bryce Harper done until he proves me wrong.  Neal has also done a good job of getting HS talents away from college.  I guess we gotta wait and see...and hope ;)  

Another comment about Harper, I read a few weeks ago that the draft eligibility rules are not so cut and dry and he might not even be eligible to be drafted next year.

@emoney

I'm pretty sure that Harper realizes that no matter what year that he is drafted, the chance that the Yankees will get him is almost nil.

Edits to my first post:

Of course in '06, they did have that falsetto 37-35 finish.

Also, yes, part of the struggles has been the weakened bench as Danno pointed out. Good post Danno. I missed reading it before I posted.

OK, just came in for a couple of quick hitters, got some stuff to do today. Have a good off day all.

ej wrote re: Morning links: The end is nigh?

on Mon, Aug 10 2009 12:01 PM

@emoney

I'm pretty sure that Harper realizes that no matter what year that he is drafted, the chance that the Yankees will get him is almost nil.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe he'll defect to the Dominican so the Yankees can get him that way..... kind of a reverse Cuban effect...   :)

OK, I'm really out. Cya all.

21stb--I didn't know there was anything worse than a "complete shambles" in describing the minor league system.  If I had, I would have used it.  ;-)

I have wondered how Littlefield got lucky with Cutch, but then I looked at the 2005 draft first round---Justin Upton, Ryan Zimmerman, Ryan Braun, Troy Tulowitzki, Jay Bruce.  Two others we know--Jeff Clement and Craig Hansen.  Other familiar names, too.  Heck of a draft.

21sthebest

"Another comment about Harper, I read a few weeks ago that the draft eligibility rules are not so cut and dry and he might not even be eligible to be drafted next year."

If not then we take Strasburg.

I haven't been around the blog much lately, but it's due to having too much other stuff to do, and not due to the rolling disaster that has (once again) become my favorite team.  Not that I'm unconcerned.

Readjusting my mind set back to "rooting for the underdogs."

Readjusting my outlook back to "oh, well."

Readjusting my optimism to "someday, I tell ya'"

I still say "stay the course."

Drew -- re:  Three years...  A reasonable time to evaluate a player, but not the front office.  What I'm interested in determining is whether Nutting stepping forward in 2007 represented a PR move or a real change of direction.  Of course, since he has complete control, we can evaluate him, but we can't fire him.  (Same is true of Coonelly and Huntington).  

At the end of next season, realistically we should have a pretty good idea of whether the guys we have playing now have long-term potential.  I think decision time for Pearce is at the end of this season -- or spring training if he's close but not quite there -- but otherwise I look for another season of evaluation.  Painful but necessary given the reality of where we are.

From your analogy of last week, though, we are not evaluating salesmen here with Coonelly and Huntington, we are evaluating the CEO and COO.  Given the business and the climate they operate in, three years is expecting a lot when it typically takes four or five years to bring a player from the draft to his first year of MLB and then another two or three years to get up to speed.

I really think the Nats will sign Strasburg, so I think these questions are moot.

If the Pirates draft him, he might just pull a JD Drew and flat out refuse to sign. Also, he has the option of going to a Division I college if things don't work out. Might be something to consider for those who want him to get drafted so badly.

=====================================================

Emoney,

I think it's a chance they're going to have to take if the situation presents itself.  von Rosenburg was seen by basically everyone in the MLB as a top round pick, but fell b/c all (including Baseball America) thought he would honor his commit to LSU.  Well, Neal and 1.2 million dollars changed that around, so, again, until neal shows me otherwise, I gotta give him the benefit of the doubt that he could get Harper inked.

Bizrow - question for you -

How much do you love the way Pearce is playing since his recent callup?

@ FormerSoxFan

I haven't heard anything regarding negotiations and Strasburg.  Can you fill me in?

Thanks

FSF,

" really think the Nats will sign Strasburg, so I think these questions are moot."

Agreed.  Has an overall No. 1 ever not signed?  I don't see it happening.  He has nowhere to go but down, obviously.  Injury?  Might be different if he were a position player.

Just dropping in for this then I am out.

I truly think that the major league team the rest of the year has to be seen as a minor league team.  It is being run like one with trying out guys in different situations and having every player work on something.  

As far as a minor league team is concerned, record has to be ignored because the team can play a perfect game in every way then have one bad inning with a couple errors and lose because it's something they are working on or something they need to learn to do.  Or, the bullpen can blow up or a starting pitcher who has no business being there (though not a case with the Pirates this year) except to fill a spot gets rocked.  SImply put, you look at individual performances.  

WOuld it be nice to win...yes, but realistically, it isn't going to happen on a regular basis.  Am I saying that 2009 was punted...yes.  But don't blame Neal for not saying it.  If he were to tell the truth about then every single media member and many fans would be more outraged than now.  But he is right in doing so.  

What is really the difference between losing 85-90 games and losing 100-105 games?  If you aren't going to make the playoffs, might as well lose every game in my opinion.  At least you get the first draft pick.

Just read Eric Hinske's quote:

"It was great for (Yankees general manager Brian Cashman) to make the move, for getting me out of Pittsburgh, and get me somewhere where I'm happy." (link to entire article/interview is above)

Is he serious?  He came to Pittsburgh, tried to win the everyday 3B job, lost it to Andy, then became a nothing bench player.  Why didn't he just sign with the Yankees in the offseason?  How could he think he could win an everyday job?  Even in Pittsburgh?  Terrible decision by him and a waste of the PBC's time.  I guess there was a miss-communic-A between Neal and Eric over the role he would be playing?

@PG Server Hostage - re - Pearce

I'm not all that impressed, the FO/JR said they were going to run him out there and let him play/give him a chance, so far I don't think he's taken real advantage of it.

Actually, I'd much rather see Moss out there, but the powers that be want to find out what Pearce has, I guess.

Re Mc Louth trade, honestly I'm not that impressed with what I hear about Gorkys (how many ML clubs has he been with??, I wonder about character...)

Morton may have potential, but 2-5, close to 100 pitches in 5 innings, its KipWellish, IMO

I think we could have gotten more for Nate, but what do I know?

Just read Eric Hinske's quote:

"It was great for (Yankees general manager Brian Cashman) to make the move, for getting me out of Pittsburgh, and get me somewhere where I'm happy." (link to entire article/interview is above)

Is he serious?  He came to Pittsburgh, tried to win the everyday 3B job, lost it to Andy, then became a nothing bench player.  Why didn't he just sign with the Yankees in the offseason?  How could he think he could win an everyday job?  Even in Pittsburgh?  Terrible decision by him and a waste of the PBC's time.  I guess there was a miss-communic-A between Neal and Eric over the role he would be playing?

I think we could have gotten more for Nate

====================================================

Apparently, MLB front offices don't value PBC players as highly as us fans do (except the SF Giants).

Why Didn't I--The SI article said Harper's parents had selected Boras as his advisor/agent.  Pedro was looking for $12 million and his family reportedly needed money.  No indication Harper is in the same situation financially.  I have heard the asking figure for Harper will be $50+ million.  I know we got Pedro for 6+, and von Rosenberg for 1.2, but . . .

"Re Mc Louth trade, honestly I'm not that impressed with what I hear about Gorkys (how many ML clubs has he been with??, I wonder about character...)"

Biz, well he was signed by the Tigers and traded to Atlanta in the Renteria deal.  After looking at his numbers and watching him play, I'm very optimistic.

Why,

I haven't heard anything about Strasburg negotiations.  But it's been pretty much assumed that things would go down to the last minute (that's how Boras rolls), and I can't see the Nats passing up on him.  They knew that they'd have to pay up to sign him.

21sthebest,

I can't think of a #1 not signing.  JD Drew was drafted 2nd by the Phillies, but would've been #1 had it not been for his bonus demands.  The Phillies knew what he wanted, drafted him anyway, and tried to lowball him.

@ Arriba

There's no way he gets $50 million as a draft pick.

1) No team would pay that much when the largest First Year Draft Contract in history I think is Texeira's @ 10.sumthin million (I believe)

2) Bud's office wouldn't allow it.

Asking price is just that, an asking price.  They start there, and the team starts (much, much, much) lower, and then they negotiate.  It's going to take up until the deadline to sign him (if he does) by whoever drafts him (hopefully Buccos).

It's too bad MLB doesn't allow the trading of draft picks.

I agree the Nats will probably sign Strasburg, mainly because they didn't sign their first pick last year and they need pitching.   I don't think their 8 game win streak has had many/any 1-0 games.  They've been doing it with the lineup led off by what's his name.

When I say the mistakes are a lack of concentration, not talent, here's where I'm coming from...

I'm a professional at an elite talent based craft. In my case I play the violin and viola.

In addition to playing professionally I have also taught professionally, and my father is an internationally known violin teacher as well.

In music, as in baseball, there are some people who have a lot of talent who just haven't put things together yet. Maybe they don't work hard, or maybe they just haven't been shown that there is a more efficient way to use their body to bring out that talent.

To be great, you have to have a lot of talent AND good instruction AND work hard.

If you have good instruction and work hard, you can be pretty good, but never great.

If you just have a lot of talent and nothing else, then you have what you are seeing with some of the Pirates' mistakes.

Does Joel Hanrahan not have the talent to throw the ball chest high to second base on a double play ball?

Does Garrett Jones not have the talent to look at the lead runner to see whether he is breaking for third?

Does Steven Pearce not have the talent to not throw a double play ball into center field?

Does Delwyn Young not have the talent to catch the ball on a steal when the runner is barreling into him?

The answer is - these are all mental mistakes based on concentration and lack of sufficient repetitions and not lack of talent.

We've seen that Perry Hill is an excellent instructor that has increased the skill level of Andy and DY greatly so far. I've got faith that he will continue to do good work and these kinds of mistake will become less and less frequent.

Why we are at it......"throwing money around".....lets just open the bidding on Chapman now that he has left Cuba....now I am sure he is going to come in at $50 Mill just to have the signing rights.....

If Strausburg doesnt sign, it is going to be 2001 all over again.....#1 Pitcher vs #1 Hitter.....I am sure if you go back to 2001, the Twins are happy they took Mauer over Prior?  Nothing against Strausburg, but there is just too much  opportunity for an already developed RHP to running into roadblocks!  I think you still stick with the position players at this time.....then again we should arleady know that after suffering through years of: Bradley, Burnett, Bullington, Johnson, Mistake-os, the line is long.......ptichers are always the most overpaid and overhyped!

Luckily there will be some home town THURSDAY NIGHT FOOTBALL this week....!!!!!!!!  I wonder if that bag of doughnuts from Lake Tahoe is going to come in to flip the coin and then take the coin after the flip, as that is about as much as she is going to make off of Big Ben...!!

Concerning Bryce Harper ...

You don't pull out of HS early, get your GED and enroll in community college and then wait around until your junior year of college to get drafted. You do all that to sign a big contract as soon as you can.

Why didn't I get to see Roberto.....Any particular reason why you like to belittle all the ex-Pirates that have been traded?

Every time someone brings up McLouth, Hinske, Sanchez, etc. it is followed with your analysis of how much "those guys" stunk....and how great the inexperienced prospects are that we obtained.

Are you trying to convince us or yourself?....Because all I see is ex-Pirates helping other teams win, while we flounder around with a bunch of useless, spineless nobody's that don't know how to bunt, throw or put their uniform on correctly.

The poster formerly known as MarkInDallas,

Good post but on that Jones baserunning play, I don't blame Jones.  Milledge stumbled making the turn around second and that's why Milledge held up.  Given that the RFer fumbled the ball, I thought Jones made a good assumption that Milledge would have easily made it to third.  Hypothetically, if Jones had been watching Milledge and Milledge does make it to third, Jones likely doesn't even try to go for second.

Aside from being willing or able to sign a Boras client like Harper or Strasburg.....I think another consideration should be Boras's wait until draft deadline before signing policy.

One of the things I agree with from the current regime is their urgency around signing picks quickly and getting them into the system.

Given the cheap stigma they have, it would be very difficult for the Nuttings to not pick a top talent like a Harper or Strasburg, but IMO I think the Nuttings and all MLB teams should reconsider selecting Boras represented picks knowing they will basically lose an entire season of development due to Boras's negotiating policy.

These teams need to keep developing counters to Boras's influence on the game.

FinerKiner,

That may be true but Harper pulled out of HS early also because he was tired of being intentionally walked.  He's so young, I could easily see him entering more than one draft if he's eligible in 2010.

@ FinerKiner re: Bryce Harper

Exactly!  He and his parents had to have had this well researched before they embarked on this journey.

Bizrow - the reason I ask is because Pearce's offensive numbers since his call up are better than Nate McLouth's when he was with Pittsburgh.

==========================

Pearce: .265 / .368 / .510 / .879

McLouth: .256 / .349 / .470 / .819

==========================

McLouth has been a little worse with Atlanta since the trade.

Now seriously, don't you think a pitcher with a 3.80 ERA is worth more than Nate McLouth, even though he is having an issue with going deep in games?

I believe the origin of MLB no allowing teams to trade draft picks was supposed to guard teams such as the Pirates from trading their picks for cash or shoddy prospects to help and therefore ensuring teams would help improve their stock by selecting the best prospects possible. Of course, teams like the PIrates got around that by drafting "signable" prospects to save money, i.e. Bullington instead of Upton, Maskos instead of Wieters ...

Why don't you put up HR's, RBI's & SB's of McLouth and Pearce?

Is it left out because your argument would look ludicrous?!

PG/Mark - I get that one!  (String bassist/teacher myself)  To even simplify the analogy a little - even Mozart had a teacher.  Would he have been a decent composer and musician anyway?  Probably.  But there's a good chance you never would have heard of him.  

I hope, for once, the words "This is our team moving forward" hold true and they give these guys the time to learn and develop.  I don't expect a bunch of legitimate all stars out of this group, but there's no reason there can't be 2 or 3.

Next spring, I think the interesting piece to watch will be (gulp) Daniel Moskos.  For all of the abuse that's been heaped upon him, there's at least a chance this guy could be the lefty in the pen next year.  He seems to be reaching his inning limit again this year (later than last year), and he really hasn't been too bad.  And for all of the hype, notice that the great Mr. Wieters has been worth ONE more win for the Orioles than the Bucs have this year.  He's also a year older than AMAC, and his numbers are nowhere near as good at the moment.

Why Didn't I--thanks for the lesson in negotiating, but it was pretty clear I was comparing the $50 mil to the $12 mil asking price for Pedro.  Do you think BN would pay $15-20 million?

But I don't want to rain on your optimism, I just stated my opinion, which I am very comfortable with.

ServerHostage,

That's all well and good but what I really want to know is...can you play "The Devil Went Down to Georgia" ?

;-)

Oh Yeah, Here are McLouth's numbers just in his mythical first half last year - until the all star break when he became "All Star Nate McLouth"...

McLouth first half last year: .270 / .349 / .483 / .832

Pearce so far: .265 / .368 / .510 / .879

Jorge Arangure's Twitter site mentions that the Angels might be making a serious play for Sano.

bucsfancents80 -

>>so in an effort to build on Tony's story from today I do agree with Bob as well when we should consider ourselves lucky and fortunate to have a team we can root for.<<

Amen. Tony Beasley's travails should put it all in perspective for anyone.

And I really enjoyed Smizik's blog this morning. I have said here many times that I live in Richmond which is suddenly a city with no baseball team and no hockey team for the first time in almost 20 years (hockey) and +40 (baseball). I would be very happy to still have a team to go and watch even if it was not a good team. It's an enjoyable evening out.

While I respect and appreciate the feelings of those that despise Pirate ownership, I cannot fully grasp the venom and depth of those feelings. Frankly, the anger that comes through in many posts almost scares me, as though some of them are on the brink of going postal. I know that's extreme, but so are the feelings they express. Name calling, insults, I just can't grasp the depth of that venom.

Because all I see is ex-Pirates helping other teams win, while we flounder around with a bunch of useless, spineless nobody's that don't know how to bunt, throw or put their uniform on correctly.

=======================================================

I guess I'll say this again.....

As single pieces on good major league rosters, yes, our former Buccos can contribute and help teams win.  When put together to make a 25 (or 40) man roster, they lose 90-97 games per season.  The only legit player that was traded was Jason Bay (and I loved Nate McLouth, but when you look at the numbers, he's really just an avg. major league outfielder)  I want better than average.  I feel that these young kids who have been brought in have the potential to be better than average.

As a friend of mine (who is a BoSox fan) said, "You gotta trade a Josh Beckett to get a Hanley Ramirez" and to which I replied, "Tell me 1 player in the last 16+ years that has been like a Josh Beckett."  I now pose that question to you Daquido.  Show me any player over the last 16+ seasons that was traded or let go that was a franchise player.  I'll give you Aramis Ramirez.  Now find another.

As Neal said, these were not the 1927 Yankees.  As I said, they were not even the 2006 Cardinals (who won 83 regular season games...when's the last time a Bucco team did that?)

And are you really citing Eric Hinske as a former Pirate who I'm "be-littling"?  Everyone in Pittsburgh should be be-littling him.  He did nothing except collect a paycheck (which he's still doing b/c the PBC had to pay the Yankees to take him).

Another thing that bugs me is people saying, "How could we trade a 3-time All-Star batting champ 2B for a AA pitcher?"  First, Freddy was only a THREE-time All-Star because we needed a rep (I'll give him his batting champ year, but other than that he wouldn't have sniffed the All-Star game on any other roster in the MLB).  Also, I think there's some warning signs when he "tweaks" his back getting out of a cab. Freddy is a nice ball player, but again over-valued by us fans.

So in a final response to you , Daquido, I'd say I'm not belittling them (although Hinske yes b/c he was terrible and now he's running his mouth), I'm just placing more of a realistic baseball return on them than many fans who post on here.

jj -

>>[guy I was sitting next to] says Jersey  you did not trade away anyone really really good and got really good prospects in return.<<

So how is it you came to be sitting in Neal Huntington's private box anyhow?  ;-)

As single pieces on good major league rosters, yes, our former Buccos can contribute and help teams win.

--------------------------------------

Too bad Huntington didn't consider this fact a year ago before he traded each and every one of them away for "prospects" that will amount to a hill of beans.

d-b - You'd also be comparing players with 388 vs 61 AB's, so the numbers for the year are pretty hard to compare.  But here they are:

Nate 388 AB, 100 H, 22 2B, 15 HR, 56 BI, 48 BB, 74 K, 17 SB, .258 BA, .345 OBP, .441 SLG, .786 OPS

Pearce 61 AB, 14 H, 7 2B, 2 HR, 6 BI, 10 BB, 20 K, 0 SB, .230 BA, .338 OBP, .443 SLG, .781 OPS

McLouth has had over 6 times as many ABs as Pearce, 4 times as many games (Pearce has more PH appearances, so he only averages 2.44 AB's a game.  So let's hypothetically project a few things on Pearce (no way should this be taken as what I think he would do - I said "hypothetically for a reason!)  This is even a little arbitrary - Nate has 6x the Ab's, but 4x the games, so multiply Pearce by 5.

305 AB, 70 H, 35 2B, 10 HR, 30 BI, 50 BB, 100 K, 0 SB

So Pearce could HYPOTHETICALLY be pretty close to Nate's numbers in everything but RBI and SB over a similar number of games.

Triple G,

I thought Jorge Arangure was one of the three musketeers?

Arriba -

>>Positive things to say about the 25 man major league roster<<

You forgot to mention they wear uniforms with sleeves this year. Well, except on Sundays at home. ;-)

Should Strasburg and Harper be in the 2010 draft, they will go 1-2, Harper will definetly be in the draft, but there are a couple of other very good picks in the top 5 next year, the draft overall after that is supposed to be a little weak. For that reason there should be a run on high school talent in the next draft from what I hear.

daquido,

Are you saying that McLouth's 15 HRs and 56 RBIs this year are so wonderful, it overshadows the fact the 2 are very similar hitters?

Pearce has 2 HRs and 6 doubles in 16 games.

OK...OK...McLouth's +15 SBs...Boy that really makes my argument completely ludicrous. There's no way having an OBP of 20 points higher could make up for that!

Hypothetically????....ha!

Let me save you all the time with the bogus stat matches.

Pearce doesn't even belong in the same locker room as McLouth, and Charlie Morton is pitching just like what he was when he came to the Pirates....An Atlanta Brave castoff.

bazzini

Too bad Huntington didn't consider this fact a year ago before he traded each and every one of them away for "prospects" that will amount to a hill of beans.

_________________________________

Please let me have your crystal ball, I am tired of being poor.

Why don't you put up HR's, RBI's & SB's of McLouth and Pearce?

Is it left out because your argument would look ludicrous

======================================================

Don't forget to put up games played and plate appearances.

@NH - Mmmmmmm... Three Muskateers Bar... Oh, did you mean THE Three Muskateers?  That reminds me.  I saw a Clark Bar at a drugstore in Iowa yesterday.  Haven't seen one in years.

I hope the Angels rumor is just that... a rumor.  They've got some deep pockets out there.

2010 draft - Don't forget that Dustin Ackley and Donovan Tate (#2-3 this year) still haven't signed either.  Even if next year's draft is considered "weak," the top 5 at least should be pretty solid.

Just catching up.

Hos - about 3 posts ago it looked like you were saying re Boras clients: DON'T pick them unless their value is SO much better than other choices that it's WORTH risking losing a year of development time.  If that's what you meant, it's an interesting thought.  Doesnt mean NEVER pick, it means pick with your eyes open and where you've taken lost time into the value equation.

Have i put words in your mouth or is this essentially part of your thinking?

Youve also said teams - all teams - need a (non-collusion) answer to Boras' influence.  Other than more and more teams saying we wont play with his clients (for which he'll charge "collusion," fairly or not), i'm not sure there's much more you can do.  But i think the only way to limit him is to limit his markets, then fewer young players will sign with him.  We're a LONG way from that because if anything it looks like more and more young (better) players are signing with him.  (Another potential solution will NEVER happen - a water-tight NBA-like draft signing scale.  Union in MLB too strong and opposed...AND some teams themselves would never go along.)

@PG Server Hostage - re Nate/Charlie

3.8 era is good, 2 -5 record isn't, we'll just have to see.

Re Gorkys - I haven't seen him personally, but IMO no power so far, good teams usually have some pop at the corner OF spots, Cutch is planted in center, hopefully for a long time.  Gorkys is hitting 280ish in AA, thats nothing to write home about, but again, we'll see.

I guess I gotta agree with an earlier post, maybe not a win for either side, right now maybe a push?

Pearce has maybe three more weeks of on the job training?  Clement seems to be hitting his way up here for a Sept callup.

Its early but any thoughts on who gets sent to the Arizona Fall League?  Pedro?  Lincoln?

Too bad Huntington didn't consider this fact a year ago before he traded each and every one of them away for "prospects" that will amount to a hill of beans.

=======================================================

Daquido,

Boy you have selective reading....

I guess you missed the rest of my statement.  Here, I'll post it again: "When put together to make a 25 (or 40) man roster, they lose 90-97 games per season."

And, you have no idea what "the prospects" will amount to.  If they amount to only 80 some losses a season they're already better than the players the PBC traded away, because as I pointed out, those teams lost 90+ games a season.

Drew - "Another potential solution will NEVER happen - a water-tight NBA-like draft signing scale.  Union in MLB too strong and opposed...AND some teams themselves would never go along."  

I think it's reaching that point where I'm not so sure about the union staying opposed to it.  How will guys feel (like we've seen here) when teams start ditching experienced players to save money to pay Boras' ransom demands?   Eventually actual MLB players are going to get concerned about the money going to kids with no pro experience instead of established players.

My point with the McLouth/Pearce comparison is not that Pearce is so wonderful. My point was simply to ask someone who said it was wrong for McLouth to be traded for Morton whether they were impressed with Steve Pearce since the call up.

The answer was "No. not impressed."

When I see Steve Pearce, I think of a right handed Nate McLouth. They both have that funky one handed follow through and everything. When I checked the numbers, in fact very similar.

The point was that some of these players that have been traded are missed not because of their production over time, but because they helped the team win in a particular memorable game, etc. You build a bond with those players and are sad to see them go.

So far, Morton has a losing record. but that's not entirely his fault. Yes, he needs to be more efficient and go deeper into games. But he's a starting pitcher with an ERA of under 4.00 that keeps the team in the game. About half the time he pitches very well, and half the time he pitches just below average, but keeps the team in the game. That, to me, is worth more than a hitter with average power and average OBP.

NuHos -

A pleasant afternoon to you, sir.

>>That's all well and good but what I really want to know is...can you play "The Devil Went Down to Georgia" ?<<

I believe it was "McLouth." Unless you're wishing Nutting would sell the Pirates and buy the Braves. :-)

Now, THAT is something I could go for.

>>Jorge Arangure<< Isn't he the brother of The Lone Arangure?

Okay, I'm leaving. My apologies. It's all the losing...   ;-)

Diehard,

You bring up a valid point re: other draft picks that haven't signed.  The only think I have to nitpick about is that if Tate doesn't sign and attends UNC instead, he's locked in for 3 years, so he wouldn't be in next year's draft.  Ackley would be in the draft next year, however.

"3.8 era is good, 2 -5 record isn't, we'll just have to see."

Biz, Jamie Moyer is 10-9 with a 5.47 ERA.  What do you think Moyer's record would be if he pitched for us?

Drew

(Another potential solution will NEVER happen - a water-tight NBA-like draft signing scale.  Union in MLB too strong and opposed...AND some teams themselves would never go along.)

__________________________

I think the fear of the the Union is something the Owners should not do. I wonder if the players would actually go on strike over what some draft pick is making.

I think a tight NBA-like draft signing scale might work, it might also hurt teams like the Pirates from paying over slot for high end high school talent, that is one of the few ways the Pirates can accumulate above average talent in volume, besides the trades of Major league players.

d-b - You asked for stats, I posted them.  Yes I gave a little hypothetical projection.  Of course those don't always work out.  I mean, how can you say a guy can hit .314 with 19 HR and 96 RBI in his first pro season in the minors will, in 8 and 2/3 seasons, only hit as LOW as .314 once, and will average .334, 40+ HR, and 125+ RBI.  Hypothethical analysis was used on Albert Pujols once as well.  (And he only got a shot when he did because Mark McGwire got hurt.)

Oh...Ok....I feel better that we might lose 80 games as opposed to 90.

That must be that "championship caliber team" that Huntington keeps talking about.

However, I'll go with the prediction of 100+.

I love all these "hypothetical" formula's that several of you use here.

Why even play the games?...Just "hypothetically" figure out who's going to win in advance!

I've noticed some people like to make up songs in here, using the melody of a known song with their own lyrics.

I'll throw one out there....to the melody of "California here we come"...

"100 losses here we come....120 by two-oh-one-one!"

Pretty catchy...huh?

FSF - Thanks - forgot Tate was a high schooler apparently!

leadoff and drew - Rather than strict slotting, considering that MLB competes with colleges for some of their draft picks, maybe a draft salary/bonus cap of some sort?