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Post-Gazette beat writers Dejan Kovacevic and Chuck Finder blog about the Pittsburgh Baseball Club.

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Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs

By Dejan Kovacevic | 5:41 p.m. Thursday

The Pirates have traded pitchers John Grabow and Tom Gorzelanny to the Chicago Cubs.

Details to come.

UPDATE 5:50 p.m.: Pitchers Kevin Hart and Jose Ascanio are the return, according to ESPN Chicago.

5:52 p.m.: The above is official, and add third baseman Josh Harrison to the return.

5:57 p.m.: Gorzelanny will be assigned to Class AAA Iowa.

5:59 p.m.: Hart will join the Pirates immediately. Ascanio will go to Class AAA Indianapolis, Harrison to Class A Lynchburg.

6:05 p.m.: Hart, a 26-year-old right-hander, was 3-1 with a 2.60 ERA in eight games for the Cubs this year, including four starts. He won his last outing this afternoon in allowing three earned runs to Houston over six innings.

He entered the season as Chicago's No. 6 prospect, as rated by Baseball America. With Iowa, he went 3-3 with three saves and a 3.10 ERA, making his first 16 appearances in relief, then going 3-0 with a 1.41 ERA and .157 opponents' batting average in six starts.

In 146 games in the minors, including 100 starts, Hart has 575 strikeouts and 224 walks in 604 1/3 innings.

Neal Huntington, on Hart: "He is a right-handed pitcher with the size, pitch arsenal and make-up to be a solid major league starting pitcher or late inning reliever. He pitches as a starter with a live fastball in the low 90s and has been in the mid-to-upper 90s as a reliever. He also has the ability to complement his fastball with a quality curveball, solid slider and changeup."

This is Hart's official page.

6:12 p.m.: Ascanio, a 24-year-old right-handed reliever, also split this season between Chicago and Iowa. He was 0-1 with a 3.52 ERA and 18 strikeouts in 14 appearances with the Cubs. He was rated to have the best fastball among Southern League in 2007.

Huntington: "Ascanio is a right-handed pitcher with a solid pitch arsenal. He possesses above average velocity on his four-seam fastball, a major league caliber slider and changeup, as a well as a solid sinker. He has the traits to pitch as a starter or out of the pen at the major league level."

This is Ascanio's page.

6:16 p.m.: Harrison, 22, hit a combined .327 with five home runs, 20 doubles, eight triples, 42 RBIs and 26 steals for low Class A Peoria and high Class A Daytona. Since joining Daytona, Harrison has seven multiple-hit games out of 18 while being named the Florida State League's player of the week in the past week after batting .423 with seven steals.

Huntington, on Harrison: "Harrison is an intriguing athletic player with a quality combination of makeup, hitting ability and speed. While he has the athletic ability to play multiple positions, we are interested in developing him as a second baseman."

This is Harrison's page.

8:03 p.m.: Ascanio will be in the starting rotation at Indianapolis.


Posted Jul 30 2009, 05:41 PM by Dejan Kovacevic

Comments

PittWin wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 5:45 PM

I wonder who we got in return.  Hopefully something substantial.  middle infield prospects would be nice.

Dan1283 wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 5:45 PM

Thanks, Cubs!  Keep trading like you have a chance!

Dan1283 wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 5:47 PM

Goldstein says RHP Jay Jackson may be in the deal.

Agitator wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 5:47 PM

Vegas just set the odds of the Pirates/Altoona game at pick 'em

EricScot - stickam.com/ah100 wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 5:48 PM

4:43pm: Finally a possible name as part of the package going to Pittsburgh.   Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus, via Twitter, hears pitching prospect Jay Jackson may be in the deal.

mazfromiowa wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 5:49 PM

4:47pm: ESPN Chicago says the Cubs sent pitchers Kevin Hart and Jose Ascanio to Pittsburgh for Grabow and Gorzelanny.

BayAreaBuccaneer wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 5:49 PM

Dan

I hate the Cubs. But they definitely have a chance. They're winning the division.

TJMacATX wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 5:50 PM

NA NA NA NAAAA NA NA NA NAAAAA HEY HEY HEY GOOOODD BYE.  So who's left, Doumit? The Leeamonaide here guy? Maybe a ticket AE and Potato Pete for some prospects?

Cajun Thunder wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 5:50 PM

If there is not a SUBSTANTIAL return...they may as well just call up the Indy roster and let them finish the season. And Donnie Veal staying here is not a substantial return.

I would expect at least one Major League player...a good prospect at AAA and 2 other middling prospects. Sure we won't get nearly that much though.

Now down to Doumit, Capps, Maholm and Duke.

GroveStud wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 5:51 PM

ESPN Chicago says the Cubs sent pitchers Kevin Hart and Jose Ascanio to Pittsburgh for Grabow and Gorzelanny.  Ed Price, via Twitter, says the Cubs are also sending third baseman Josh Harrison.  

Alifaxwa2 wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 5:52 PM

All I care about is getting no more than 3 players.  Any more than that and I don't care.

GroveStud wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 5:52 PM

The Pirates' return of Hart, Ascanio, and Harrison is confirmed by a press release from the Cubs.  Gorzelanny will head to Triple A Iowa.

Eight was Great! wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 5:53 PM

4:50pm: The Pirates' return of Hart, Ascanio, and Harrison is confirmed by a press release from the Cubs.  Gorzelanny will head to Triple A Iowa.

Bizrow wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 5:53 PM

I bet we even send the Cubs some money in this thing

Two more pitchers?? More to throw on Neals wall, I can't wait to hear this spin

Payroll under 30 M now, and comeon who really thinks this GM can snooker so many people?  They are lining up, free beer and candy all around, sheesh

LCPF wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 5:54 PM

Color me unimpressed. I will have to look into these guys a bit before I change my mind.

Dan1283 wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 5:54 PM

Nah, the Cubs don't have the guts or the bats to pull out a championship.  And that's really what it's all about.  Finish first or finish last, nothing in-between.

Everyone forgetting about that sweep last year?  Wooooo.

Jose Lind's Pants wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 5:55 PM

I hear + Josh Harrison?

Dan1283 wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 5:56 PM

So someone get to work and tell me who the heck these guys are.

scicco21 wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 5:56 PM

With all of Dejan's hard work today the Pirates might think about shopping him before tomorrow.  I hear there's a kid who writes for a Boston school newspaper with plus-plus stuff...

Kidding - I'm all for this housecleaning.  I'm just curious if this massive of an overhaul has ever been done before.

Agitator wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 5:57 PM

...and all of this could not have been accomplished two years ago, why?

Thundercrack wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 5:58 PM

Are the Cubs keeping Gorzo in AAA because they don't want his free agency clock to start.  

hahahahahhaha!!!!!

Plenty of Hope wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 5:59 PM

I'm with Dan - you folks with all the background information, step up and tell us who these people are!

Third base? Did we need a third base? What about Pine Richlan's Niel Walker (I just had to say his official name) and Pedro? Yo?

Thundercrack wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:01 PM

Hart was on the list of Top 10 Cub prospects.  The list was provided by NutHo on the previous thread

Bizrow wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:01 PM

Where do I buy my world series tickets?  Lets see No 26, 28 and 30 prospect from one of the worst minor league systems in baseball?

I can't wait for the positive spin from the FO defenders

Please give me one reason to trust this staff?  Forget winning, one good trade (granted Nady/Marte was decent)

BUT THATS IT

Whew, yelling is good for the soul, who goes tomorrow?

LCPF wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:01 PM

hart started todays game for the Cubs.

Where's WaMo? wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:02 PM

Harrison- 5'8" 175 3B....Chone Figgens mold?

GroveStud wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:02 PM

what  I found on Harrison:

Harrison’s complete line for the the year:

.339 AVG | 60 R | 20 2B | 8 3B | 5 HR | 42 RBI | 22 BB | 30 SO | 25 SB | .385 OBP

everyone says he has very limited upside The guy is 5’8" and few guys not named Jimmy Wynn hit for any power at that size. Despite his 25 steals this year, I hear his speed is only above average. He’s been caught stealing ten times so the stealing percentage isn’t very good.

High-A player

Joey Bats wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:03 PM

OK...so tomorrow, when we trade uh....Maholm, or Duke, or Doumit ...the return will be .....

re: return on this trade...REPEAT AFTER ME....

We get  2 (two) Double AA pitchers "these guys are 6'4" ... have power arms, with good downward plane, plus-plus fast ball, good ability to change speeds. They have played in hitter friendly parks..that's why their numbers this year  are a little high. We think our superior pitching coaches can really help them out."

JAL wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:03 PM

Always amazes me that trades keep bringing the minor league posters (gray men) here, I guess because the trades are for minor leaguers.  

PittisCHCsAAA wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:04 PM

Hart has the upside of a #3 starter on pure talent.  He has realllllly struggled with his control.  He has a nasty cutter when he can control it.

Ascanio has a marmol-type arm.  94-97 with a nasty curve.  Just seems to overthrow sometimes and walked too many guys at the MLB level for Lou's liking.

Harrison - no clue.  

PittWin wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:04 PM

Josh Harrison has good numbers in A ball.  Doesn't look like a power guy from the numbers.  Speedy for sure.

www.baseballamerica.com/.../cards

GrahamKoonce'ssweetpackagedeal wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:05 PM

Jose Ascanio - GARBAGE aka middle reliever

baseball cube: www.thebaseballcube.com/.../jose-ascanio.shtml

Kevin Hart - Strikeout guy Cubs number 6 prospect. I would take Gorzo over him seing as how he is younger and all. Difference noticeable is this dude will be old when we run out of control years

baseball cube:

www.thebaseballcube.com/.../kevin-hart.shtml

Josh Harrison - aka everybody's favorite. A DOUBLES MACHINE YES!!!!! sorry for that. the cube says he is a good contact hitter and has wheels. and gues what? HE PLAYS THIRD BASE!!!! sorry for that too.

baseball cube:

www.thebaseballcube.com/.../Josh-Harrison.shtml

mazfromiowa wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:05 PM
GroveStud wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:05 PM

Harrison was 2nd base in college.  

Hart:

Major League Totals 2 1 2.08 7 3 0 0 21.2 17 5 5 1 16 9 6.65 3.74 1.52 55% 1.08

Minor League Totals 3 3 3.20 23 7 0 3 56.1 42 22 20 6 21 60 3.36 9.59 1.12 62% 1.16

www.baseballamerica.com/.../cards

Scott421 wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:05 PM

Another great trade for the bucos! Hart will fit in nicely as a #3 or 4 pitcher.  Gorzelanny sucked so losing him means nothing.  Grabow was solid but when you lose 90+ every year having a left specialist is pretty meaingless.  I am going to re-up my season tickets for next year since i am actually excited to see the young kids play instead of the mediocre retreads like Jack, Freddy, Adam, Nate, ETC....

Alifaxwa2 wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:06 PM

Hart: 3.88 era over 60.1 MLB innings, 45K:38B

Ascanio: 4.86 era over 37 MLB innings, 34K:19B

Harrison: 3.19 in 609 at bats in single A, ~1:1 BB:K ratio

Eight was Great! wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:06 PM

hart's start today:

K. Hart (W, 3-1) 6.0 6 3 3 2 4 2 1.48 2.60

JHadar wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:07 PM
mazfromiowa wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:07 PM
LCPF wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:07 PM

Checking out Harts numbers, he's not that bad. 3-1 this season with 2.60 era. Liking this trade, a bit more as the Bucs got another starter for the rotation. Maybe now Vasquez can go back down.

GrahamKoonce'ssweetpackagedeal wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:08 PM

gotta say I love kool-aid, but not as much as NH digs on doubles machines that play third

48jj wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:10 PM

Good luck to Grabow & Gorzelanny. This organization is awful so it's probably a welcome relief to escape from it. I hope that Duke, Doumit, and Maholm are traded before next season.

BestBolt wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:10 PM

I swear ,one more pitcher and they are gonna have to schedule 18 inning games down there!

PIG LEGS ROBINSON wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:11 PM

I am good with that return. I didn't expect a whole lot anyway.

Gorzo was too unreliable and I won't miss him. He looked like he was morphing into Jimmy Anderson anyway. Good God, Jimmy Anderson?!  Whoa, I just had some terrible flashbacks there. Excuse me.

Hart is at least of immediate use. He can start or relieve, and may give Karstens a run for the 5th starter job. At least Virgil can go back down and work on his stuff, unless they put him in the pen. I think Virgil could be useful there.

Still, it makes you wonder if Dumatrait is coming up soon, with the depletion of lefties.

This trade stuff is fun. It brings me back to the days of Pete Peterson, Joe L Brown & Syd Thrift. It's been years since we had a competent GM who could evaluate talent.

Tor Eckman wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:12 PM

Harrison appears to have played more as a 2nd baseman in the minors.

hokies416 wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:12 PM

so why keep Capps? Surely we can move Capps for something we need, like more AA org depth. What good is a high-priced closer on this team? Move him too! What else does Lynchburg need?

JHadar wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:12 PM

So, it's good bye Virgil -- two major leaugers and a top 10 prospect according to NuHos -- it's turning into a very encouraging week.  

And, Biz, if ESPN mocks it, it was probably the right thing to do.

Bizrow wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:15 PM

So we got Hart and "organizational" filler?

Thanks for the info folks, but please get avatars as JAL notes

Hart replaces VV?  PoH I hope he's cute ; }

No lefthanded RP depth in the organization, thank god Littlefield drafted Moskos

Honestly, do you folks really believe Huntington knows what he's doing?  I would sleep much better if I had evidence, so far he's buying powerball lottery tickets, I've been there, it doesn't work

Could all this additonal pitching be an answer for why we won't sign that many high school pitchers this year?  Huntington alluded to that earlier, I'm just saying

You tick budmeister off anytime you sign someone overslot..

mazfromiowa wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:16 PM

The Dodgers are interested in Capps too.

Teams in conversation with the Dodgers say they have interest in David Weathers, Matt Capps, Arthur Rhodes and Jason Frasor.

DMac wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:16 PM

Good bye and Good luck to Gorz and Grabow!  I am sorry that Gorz didn't get the chance to start back here...I think he deserved that, but I wish him well with, even though it's in the Scrubbies system.  

I am shocked to see Grabow go, since he's the only lefty in the Pen...again, not counting Veal -- he scares me...Good Luck John!  

Plenty of Hope wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:16 PM

Billy Kidd just said Rocko Di-whatever on the radio said the Pirates are in serious talks to trade Duke tonight.

Agitator wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:16 PM

...and this made the Pirates better how?  I have to ask.  One of the best LH setup men for a pssible #3 guy?  I'm with Joey Bats.  I don't get this one.  I thought Gorzo was a possible #3 guy. And another guy to take up at bats that will not come to Pittsburgh.

I know, I know!  The plan is SSSOOOO Clear!

marty34156 wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:16 PM

I like it.

doug1 wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:17 PM

Pig Legs....

Is NH considered a competent GM who can evaluate talent? This is turning out to be one of the biggest gambles in Pittsburgh sports history...conceivably with 17 losing seasons that's realistic...may be it will work....then again we could just as easily see NH bagging groceries at Giant in 2011.....

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:18 PM

How odd is this?  The Pirates traded a for a guy who won at the MLB Level for another team.  Did Lou call this guy "Sunglasses at night" and Hart snapped at him?

Hmm.. Zambrano, Wells, Harden, Dempster and Lilly (who's hurt).  Was Jim Hendry (cubs GM) ill and did Littlefield take over?  

Me thinks Gorzo takes Lilly's spot, but definitely sell low on Gorzo.

mazfromiowa wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:18 PM

It sounds like Indy will be making some moves this week also.

BayAreaBuccaneer wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:20 PM

I like that he's going to be a second-baseman, since we have none of those.

VV has to be done, right?  Please? Pretty please?

Doc wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:21 PM

Isn't the "# 3 prospect" about the same age as Gorzellany, a player who has already had success at the major league level?

GoBucs wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:22 PM

Hart taking VV's place now, who cares?  We'd be better off losing 90% of the rest of this year's games anyway, better draft pick.  I guess this isn't bad, but it's not exciting.  Harrison seems like a Bobby Hill clone to me, but if he develops at 2B that might not be terrible.  At least Ramirez wasn't traded for him.

BayAreaBuccaneer wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:23 PM

Speaking of Moskos, he's really struggling today with his command, though he's keeping Altoona in the game.

4 IP, 4 H, 1 ER, 7 BB, 4 K

Seven is a ton of walks.  I'd guess he's got one more inning in him, tops.  But glad to see him battling through.

BestBolt wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:25 PM

Shocked we didnt get Matt Bruback. On second thought...we probably did.

BayAreaBuccaneer wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:25 PM

40 man roster status at this point, anyone?

I assume Ascanio has to go onto it, since he was on the Cubs' 40 man.  And of course Hart does. Both Gorzo and Grabow come off. So...no blood?

Neal_isn't_Joe_L_Brown wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:26 PM

Just heard NH traded Oliver Onion to Giant Eagle for Zack Zuchini and two fruits to be named later!

Doc wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:27 PM

And trading Grabow, and a possible sandwich pick in the draft is worth these guys...

Harrison is Bobby Hill

Once again, the curse of Aram strikes again

BayAreaBuccaneer wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:27 PM

Doc

Yeah, Hart is not much more than Gorzo. But with Gorzo, the success has come and gone, and I think the organization questioned his willingness and ability to maintain that success.  But I don't think anyone thinks this trade is selling high on him.  

Basically, ask yourself this:  would you rather have two extra picks in the supplemental round of the draft plus Gorzo, or have Hart, Ascanio and Harrison.  When you put it that way, this trade makes sense.

Bizrow wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:27 PM

@JHadar -

Seriously, I wish I could share your optimism, agree with your thoughts on ESPN, only I'm tired of hearing about how much my club stinks, tired of losing and tired of waiting for hope.

I will get shot for this statement, and I do not hate NH and I do not wish him to fail, but I do not believe he is stealing other GMs underwear on these trades, each has baggage, and those guys are moving people with problems, their folks they want to move.  This guy might just be overmatched.

I have to admit though, although not hate, I don't think I hate anyone, there are people I do not trust, Nutting and Coonley are two of them, and some teach you by words and actions how to take them.  IMO they have double speaked to the point, I do not believe them

DK, stay off the coffee, we'll see what happens tomorrow, you probably need some sleep, although my mom can't sleep without caffeine,and once again, if I may speak for us in the asylum, thanks for the hard work and great reporting to the legions

Cajun Thunder wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:27 PM

BAB...those 7 walks by Moskos...were all in the first TWO innings. A pickoff...and Tabata throwing a guy out at the plate were the only reasons he's given up 1 run. How he can walk 5 guys in an inning and not hit the 35 pitch in an inning limit is  beyond me.

pghboyinca wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:28 PM

Starting with the Bay trade it seems like we absolutely love right handed pitchers, catchers, corner outfielders and corner infielders. The first couple of trades it doesn't matter because you are so void of talent you just hopefully acquire quality. But now are we not at  a point where we have an abundance of right handed pitchers, outfielders, and corner infielders? At some point we might actually look to pick up a middle infielder or 2 along with some left handed pitching. I hope all this comes together into a somewhat cohesive organization but this isn't a trade that had to be made and it doesn't address any of our real needs. Another 3rd baseman  with no power, sound familiar? We may have to start a AAAA minor league just to have more innings for all of our 50 pitchers to get work. Also let's see some signings from the high school kids we drafted, for gods sake we have what 2 guys in hte majors now making over the minimum?  

ztown13 wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:28 PM

should we schedule another chat for tomorrow?

marty34156 wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:28 PM

Anyone else going to find it hard to root for Grabow nad Gorzelanny now that their Cubs? Lol.  But seriously best of luck to the both of them, just as long as it isn't against us.

Bizrow wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:29 PM

Bucco Nation (40 States in the Union)

Still looking for inmates from the following:

Alabama, Alaska, Arkansas, Hawaii, Minnesota, North Dakota,

Oklahoma, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Wyoming

We have heard from 13 countrys: Australia, Brazil, Canada, China, Colombia, England, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Phillipines, Scotland, Zambia and the USA.

Of course, there is probably not too many that visit this site under 30, except for the stinkbugs

Cajun Thunder wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:30 PM

Well...if the Pirates are going to trade Duke...they may as well trade Maholm, Capps and Doumit and be done with it. That way the management team can say they turned over the ENTIRE roster in 2 years. At least they would set some sort of record.

chza wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:30 PM

Are you people retarded?  Getting anything back for Grabow and Gorzellany is a win for the Pirates.

Gorzellany was NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO MAKE THEIR MLB ROSTER.  HE WAS BEAT OUT BY VIRGIL VAZQUEZ.  HE COULDN'T STICK IN THE WORST BULLPEN IN THE MAJORS.

Why do you even pay attention to the Pirates in the first place?  They haven't won in 17 years!  At least they are trying something new.

emoneypitt wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:31 PM

On the surface, looks like a good return for the Pirates. Another deal where time will tell but they all look promising.

P'ColaBuccoFan wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:34 PM

And the trades just keep on coming.  At least he's not going half way with it, if you're going to make player changes might as well trade everyone.  I'm a fan of what he's doing and I hope it works - it has to work better than what they've been doing.  I've liked everyone that's been traded but it was time to make drastic changes.  Hopefully I can make it down to spring training but don't know if I or my boys would recognize anyone.

PIG LEGS ROBINSON wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:36 PM

Doug1 - I certainly have been impressed with Huntington's evaluation insticts from day one. Also that he grabs useful players when they become available on waivers, like Delwyn Young this year & Jason Michaels last year. Our previous GM's didn't have a clue about waivered guys, and every other GM would grab them. Littlefield was the worst, Bonifay was awful, and Larry Doughty was lucky but had bad evaluation instincts.

We have not seen a GM as couragious and smart since Syd Thrift.

I dont care what the gray men say, they prove their lack of knowledge by the lack of any substance in their posts. I have been following baseball & the Bucs since 1970 and I am not shy about saying I consider myself very knowledgable. (I guess I'm not very humble in that regard either).

I am not swayed by writers who are 'scout wanna-be's'. I have always made my evaluations on my own and am set in my beliefs. If I listened to the so-called expert bloggers out there, I would never finish in the playoffs every year in all my fantasy leagues as I have for the past 20 years.

I'm excited by these moves, and I look forward Pirates baseball now more than I have all year.

Cajun Thunder wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:36 PM

If Ascanio goes on the 40 man roster, the Pirates will be at 38. Figure Dumatrait to come off the 60 day DL in a week or so to make it 39...but Yates can go on it anytime we need him to.

So...effectively...2 slots on the 40 man roster open for the foreseeable future.

ptbyrne wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:36 PM

I forgot that Dave Littlefield was guest GM this afternoon. How does this trade make us better unless Harrison is the next Dustin Pedroia. Pathetic. I've supported all deals up until this point. Please someone tell me how Hart fits in? Ascaino? Who will be our lefty releiver next year? Stupid trade!

buc_fan_in_CT wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:36 PM

Jeez, i liked the trades yesterday, but c'mon. I'm really not too sure about this one. And to the cubs of all teams???????? Better not be as bad as the Aramis trade.

kozy21 wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:37 PM

We can keep Duke, but I'm all for trading the rest.  This team is gonna be real solid in 2 to 3 years.  I love what NH is doing.  I don't understand how anyone would this Harrison is a Bobby Hill clone.  He has speed and his OBP is .377 in high A.  That's a great OBP in the minors.  NH said they look at him a 2nd baseman anyways.  With his size I wouldn't mind seeing him at short.  Pirates fans overrate players way too much.  Doumit is hurt all the time.  I already think Sanchez will be at least as good as Russell Martin or Paul LoDuca in his prime.  By next July our rotation will be Duke, Lincoln, Maholm, Alderson, and Morton.  That looks pretty good to me.  

marty34156 wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:37 PM

emoneypitt

"Another deal where time will tell but they all look promising."

I'm am glad to finally see trades that look promising!

Cajun Thunder wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:38 PM

re Moskos...looks like the box score for Altoona has been changed. Instead of 7 walks in the first two innings...it's 5 walks and 2 HBP.

Sharky wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:39 PM

YAY!!!  Now there is only one LH pitcher left in the bullpen!!!

Don't cha think that maybe the Pirates might need some middle infielders?????

It would be nice if they would TRY to field a team that could compete. Look at what Russell has to use:

Young at 2nd (not good), only one  left handed reliever, Jones should be at first because he is not a very good outfielder but Pearce is there instead, a new SS with no bat and average (or worse) defense, and a Larouche.

Why would anyone pay to watch that team?

BenderHeel wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:39 PM

LCPF  wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs

on 07-30-2009 10:54 PM

Color me unimpressed. I will have to look into these guys a bit before I change my mind.

-- I would think looking into the return should come before reaching any conclusion....

I'm all for Hart arriving so that Virgil can go...anywhere else but Pittsburgh.

Getting a solid 2B prospect is nice too.  Not sure why the need for yet another super-hard-throwing reliever who can't control what he has, but....whatever.  

Grabow was good, but was he a difference maker on this team this year or next?  Gorzo wasn't even in the bigs (even though he should have been instead of VV but for his contract status) and flopped last year, so.....whatever.

ShadesOfHebner wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:41 PM

I just really, really like the fact that next year, everyone will be fighting for spots out of Bradenton and only the best will be coming up north.

We will no longer have the complacent tenured starters feeling safe and playing for a paycheck instead of their very spot on the roster. Every time I got to see a game these last couple of years I would get visions of Roger Dorn in my mind.

marty34156 wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:41 PM

ptbyrne

Hart will go straight to the rotation, Ascaino will be in the bullpen sooner rather then later, and they both have great potential. And Grabow is going to be a free agent and wasn't going to be resigned anyway so we still would've only had Donnie Veal as a lefty reliever next year. So no not stupid.

Capn wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:42 PM

Numb.  Pretty much numb.

The only thought I have right now is that if, as some have suggested, Huntington's goal is to trade everyone on the major league team who was here when he arrived because they came from a previous regime, then he is a manical egotist.

P'ColaBuccoFan wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:42 PM

PIG LEGS ROBINSON:

"I'm excited by these moves, and I look forward Pirates baseball now more than I have all year."

I agree.

Eight was Great! wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:44 PM

I say good trades--the FO has kept with their word--no winning=drastic changes.

Remember the Marlins have done this same thing. i would rather trade out most of our players that need trading in a short span than drag it out over many years.

Point: We didnt get any over the hill past their prime players like the previous GMs seemed to cherish.

Point: What did we give up really??? Some FA's that would have been over paid anyway, some older guys that made great plays that had bodies that were starting to let them down, some head cases and some BIG underperformers. Oh yeah and they were all nice guys too.

The PLAN is in place now...time will tell--and I am guessing much sooner than most expect....

Arriba Wilver wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:45 PM

I wonder what was in it for the Cubbies?  And I think Gorzo is going to hate Lou and my guess is if Gorzo walks as many guys as he walked here (and at Indy apparently) the feeling is going to be mutual.  On the other hand, maybe Lou is what Gorzo needs.

Capn wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:45 PM

Excuse me, that was maniacal egotist.

doug1 wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:46 PM

Pig Legs....

I'll agree that NH is the most courageous GM since Thrift--no doubt there. On the other hand Syd had one whale of a lot more experience when he was with the Pirates than NH does. May be gambling is what we need to be doing right now, but this is truly turning out to be an all-or-nothing approach. If NH is good and right, we could be a contender. If he's wrong, we're probably looking at upward of 20-22 consecutive losing seasons with only one assurance...you and I and the rest of the die hard Pirate fans will continue to go to games and the FO will make $. And since baseball is a business--we can take that to the bank (probably the one Nutting owns).

BakersfieldBucco wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:47 PM

I like the figgins comparisons for the 3b/2b, hopefully Hart can be the closer when they trade Capps.

Plenty of Hope wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:47 PM

Capn - I honestly can't believe that's it. If they start moving starters - if the Duke talks are more than a rumor, then I would lean more that way.

Groat2Maz2Strangeglove wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:48 PM

Interesting take from one of the Cubs bloggers:

"cubtom wrote:

It's a win-win. If Hart goes to Pittsburgh and doesn't live up to his potential, good trade. If he goes over there and becomes a stud, the Cubs can just trade back for him as he approaches free agency!"

It's painful to be a Pirate fan.

Not only is our team constantly dismantled, but other teams make fun of us!!

BayAreaBuccaneer wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:49 PM

I think a lot of the posts here are based on carryover from the other trades. Surely there can't be many here who think that this particular trade is bad or surprising. We traded a starting pitcher who had fallen out of favor because of work ethic and failure to throw strikes in the majors and a guy we would have only had for another two months for a major league caliber starting pitcher who will immediately make us better (he's better than VV, by far) a reliever who has also made the majors already, and a second baseman who hits for average but not power.  (Didn't we just whine about trading away a second baseman who does that?)  

The trade is a win. Today, and in the future.  

Thundercrack wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:50 PM

I don't think NH's plan was to trade everyone that was on the roster when he took over.  His plan was to build a winning ball club and stop the streak of consecutive losing seasons.  The players on the roster weren't good enough together....and hello....they contributed to the streak of losing seasons

Why Didn't I get to see Roberto? wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:50 PM

Why does everyone think we need to address our MI depth through these trades.  Clearly there are other avenues (aka the draft and int'l signings aka "The Gift" aka hopefully Sano) where this can be done.  These trades are hopefully doing 2 things

1) Purge this organization of as much of the recent former regimes as possible.  Everything about them was terrible at all levels.  

2) make our MLB roster lose enough games (which will be tough b/c Washington has such a head start) so we can get the #1 pick and take Bryce Harper.

Capps is next (PLEASE MAKE THIS HAPPEN, NEAL!!!!!!)

BayAreaBuccaneer wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:52 PM

Capn

You're right. If that has been his goal, he's insane.  Let's just hope that it hasn't been.  I think most of the trades have been good, but I also think that all of them have at least made sense.  So hopefully he's not insane.  

JimmyO wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:52 PM

So we just sit and wait for all these "star prospects" to develop in 2011 or later?

I think I'm moving back to Pittsburgh to open up a used car lot.  

I'll give you all a good deal etc.

The Pirates are dumping players because of there salaries.

Do you sincerity believe there going to sign Sano to?  If hes as good as advertised, no way we'll pay more then other teams for his service.

Why Didn't I get to see Roberto? wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:53 PM

The only thought I have right now is that if, as some have suggested, Huntington's goal is to trade everyone on the major league team who was here when he arrived because they came from a previous regime, then he is a manical egotist.

=======================================================

No, it's b/c he sees what shambles the organization was left in and wants to get rid of the stink that cam before him.

Capps, pack your bags (PRETTY PLEASE, NEAL?)

PressKyle wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 6:57 PM

Questions and Observations-

-Aren't successful lefty pitchers rare and harder to find, making them more valuable? I'm mentioning this for 2 reasons.  First, because you would think that would draw a little more return in a trade, wouldn't you? Second, this trade robs the Pirates of ALL their effective lefty relievers (I said effective). I know the remainder of the season is actually the start of 2010 Spring Training, but shouldn't the Pirates have at least 1 or 2 lefties in the pen for certain situations? The fact that they don't should initiate an investigation by MLB. as now it's clear that the Pirates have simply given up on competing for the rest of the season. If you were a contender with only a couple games left with PBC (Say, Houston, with only 3 left)wouldn't you be torked off that the Bucs are basically going to be rolling over for the teams with whom they have a lot of games left (Cubs with 9, for example)?

-In your imagination, can anyone else see Coonelly and Huntington sitting in front of a big corkboard with pictures of all the Pirate players on it, most of whom, except for Doumit, Duke, Maholm, and Capps, have big red X's over their faces?

-Amazing that, with all the names peope threw out there before the trade was announced, no one except Hart was mentioned. Obviously, the Cubs didn't lose that much. What a surprise. This one underscores that the Bucs are making trades simply to be making trades.

Starting with the Bayand Nady trades last year, the Pirates have now traded 11 players and gotten 26 players in return. Not a single lefty arm (above single A) in the bunch, and not a single YOUNG middle infield prospect (Sorry, Diaz and Cedeno are no longer prospects. They are trade filler and band-aids) to address the glaring needs at those 2 positions. I know you're not supposed to draft for need, but you should trade for it, shouldn't you? Maybe Duke, Doumit, Capps, or Maholm will return a middle infielder.

irate fan wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:01 PM

@POH - <Billy Kidd just said Rocko Di-whatever on the radio said the Pirates are in serious talks to trade Duke tonight.>

If Rocco said it is happening, it is not. Rocco also said we had Alvarez and Scheppers signed at 9 P.M. on the last day to sign them. As you already know, the Pirates had not talked to Scheppers for 2 days and Alvarez did not agree until after midnight.

Plenty of Hope wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:01 PM

One of you educated bloggers can probably tell us what lefties can come up from Indy, right?

kozy21 wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:05 PM

I concur, I was at the game in Philly were Capps blew a 4 run lead in the 9th.  It was embarrassing.  I don't know what happened to Capps but he's not a franchise closer.  He isn't.  McLouth wasn't a stud, LaRoche was overpaid, Wilson and Sanchez are role players not leaders, Nady was good for half a year in the majors, and Bay is another guy that's better when he's not the best player on the team.  NH is doing the right thing.  McCutchen, Alvarez, and Alderson are all gonna be stars and our tightwad owner will pay them.

irate fan wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:06 PM

@POH - <One of you educated bloggers can probably tell us what lefties can come up from Indy, right?>

As DK stated, there are no lefty's until Class A Lynchburg.

The Pirates are not the first team to have all right handed relievers. I remember another team doing this a number of years ago. As I remember, they were not that bad.

marty34156 wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:06 PM

POH

"One of you educated bloggers can probably tell us what lefties can come up from Indy, right?"

Bad part is there iis not one single left on their roster!

Why Didn't I get to see Roberto? wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:06 PM

Second, this trade robs the Pirates of ALL their effective lefty relievers (I said effective). I know the remainder of the season is actually the start of 2010 Spring Training, but shouldn't the Pirates have at least 1 or 2 lefties in the pen for certain situations?

=======================================================

For all those late inning situations.....

Where we need to get a lefty out.....

B/c we're in a close ballgame......

And their record is 15 games under .500....

How many lafty arms and MIers did they draft/sign last year and this?

In case you missed it, the PBC's pitching staff was THE WORST in the MLB in 08 (ok, maybe Texas was worse?).  I think pitching was a BIT MORE of a GLARING NEED, considering there was nothing at the major OR minor league level, and considering pitching is the MOST important aspect of the game.

Stop (with the above nonsense), please.

leadoff wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:07 PM

Irate

Billy Kidd just said Rocko Di-whatever on the radio said the Pirates are in serious talks to trade Duke tonight.>

If Rocco said it is happening, it is not. Rocco also said we had Alvarez and Scheppers signed at 9 P.M. on the last day to sign them. As you already know, the Pirates had not talked to Scheppers for 2 days and Alvarez did not agree until after midnight.

__________________________________

Anything is possible, IMO there are still a few teams out there that are looking for starting pitching and we have some, I would not be surprised if Neal got a call of two about Duke and he probably said, what will you give me for him? Duke is IMO a #4 pitcher on a good staff, that is debatable I am sure.

PressKyle wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:07 PM

@Kozy 21, you're cracking me up.

First you say "Pirates fans overrate players way too much.  Doumit is hurt all the time." OK, no argument there.  

Then you add-

"I already think Sanchez will be at least as good as Russell Martin or Paul LoDuca in his prime."

You criticize fans who think Doumit is a good player and should return some good players if traded, then you proceed to overrate a kid who's been in single A for a month by equating him to 2 players who have been All-Stars on good teams.

Hilarious. Keep 'em coming!

leadoff wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:09 PM

I like the trades for pitchers that the Pirates are doing. I am a firm believer that we cannot compete against the Cubs and Brewers and Cards with the soft tossing lefties we had.

I believe that Neal is building a team to compete in his own division.

Why Didn't I get to see Roberto? wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:09 PM

Do you sincerity believe there going to sign Sano to?

======================================================

No, but I SINCERELY believe that they'll make a good try to sign him.  If they get outbid and they make a good offer, how can you be mad at the FO?  Be mad at the state of affairs that are pro sports and and player salaries.  It sucks, but that's just the world we live in.

irate fan wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:12 PM

@leadoff - I never said Duke could not be traded. I am saying Rocco has no clue what he is talking about. He is the radio version of Bob Smizik.

leadoff wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:13 PM

Why didn't I

No, but I SINCERELY believe that they'll make a good try to sign him.  If they get outbid and they make a good offer, how can you be mad at the FO?  Be mad at the state of affairs that are pro sports and and player salaries.  It sucks, but that's just the world we live in.

______________________________

I agree, they already have a lot of time in with this kid. No doubt about it, if the Yankees wanted him, the Pirates might as well forget it, they couldn't outbid them.

madturk2008 wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:13 PM

@Plenty of Hope wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs

on Jul 30, 2009 7:01 PM

One of you educated bloggers can probably tell us what lefties can come up from Indy, right?

___________

PoH loved your post today.

In answer that cupbraod is bare.  So what happens is that we will need to go shopping for some.  Not this year maybe but in the off season.  FA or almost ready prospects in a trade for some of the abundance of pitchers and outfielders we have now.

BenderHeel wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:14 PM

PressKyle: They did address the middle infield -- Harrison is that.

Groat2Maz2Strangeglove wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:16 PM

I'm Glad You Didn't See Roberto,

If a team has 5 quality Major League players in its line-up and 3 subpar, you can do one of two things:

1/  Replace the 3 subpar players with quality players and make a run at the pennant——maybe by adding free agents

2/  Call the 5 quality players losers and get rid of them, claiming need for a fresh start all around.

You obviously are from the 2nd school from your comments recently.

However, it looks to me that we:  1/ still have not addressed those three subpar positions in our line-up, and 2/ have added MORE spots in the lineup to fill, and 3/ traded quality major leaguers like McLouth, Wilson, Sanchez for lottery tickets, ALL of them in low minors far from the Majors.

I'm glad you didn't get to see Roberto  .  .  .  .  because he didn't play on a Pirate team that made it to the World Series until his 6th season in the Majors.  YOU would have traded him by then!!

madturk2008 wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:18 PM

I hope we do not trade Duke, Paul, Oliie, Morton they will be needed to keep us somewhat stable next year.  Capps can go and let's see what Meek and or others can do in that role.  But as for starters after Capp I hope we do not trade anymore of them.

DMac wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:19 PM

Numb is a good word right about now, Capn.  

But since good, reliable starting pitching is one thing we have and can always use, if Duke goes...I don't even want to go there.

darylethepiratefan wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:20 PM

PEOPLE , this needed to happen, You cant polish a turd and thats what our last 16 seasons have been , turds, We have a intriguing lineup on the field tommorow and options down on the farm.......When was the last time we could say that, we got attached to these players and there upside passed us by......GORZO, SNELL, pitched there way to triple a, not ownership, we have saved so much money that nobody can predict how they will spend it, I just like what I am seeing with the possibilities with the rotation.......Man dont give up , we were not gonna win in 09,,,Main reason, CAPPS CANT CLOSE A DOOR.....Too many easy outs, Look at this lineup

AMAC CF

D YOUNG 2B

G JONES 1B

R DOUMIT C

L MILLEDGE LF

B MOSS RF

A LAROCHE 3B

CEDENO SS

That is not the worst lineup ,. Matter fact it stacks up with JACK/FREDDY in our lineup...

Hold on people we are in the process of SHOCKING THE WORLD........ALDERSON IS THE NEXT MORTON, We got rid of the old shoes and trying on new ones, once we find the right shoe and fit, we then have NEW SHOES and we will again SHOCK EVERYBODY...We were loosing anyway ,

LETS GO BUCS

marty34156 wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:20 PM

irate fan

"@leadoff - I never said Duke could not be traded. I am saying Rocco has no clue what he is talking about. He is the radio version of Bob Smizik. "

Great, great analogy!

CA Pirate wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:21 PM

You can never have enough pitching!!! How many times do we hear that?

I'm surprised at people complaining about getting more pitching. If it was all for one level, that would be a problem but NH is getting pitching for just about every level. And the Pirates had almost nothing a year ago.

Getting pitching in these trades has no impact on signing drafted high school pitchers. High school pitchers will all go to Bradenton or State College. Pitchers coming in trades are all going to higher levels.

The talent level by position is unbalanced at present. I think NH is still in the mode of getting whatever talent he can and sorting out positions later.

BayAreaBuccaneer wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:23 PM

Press Kyle

You may not like Argenis Diaz, but he is a prospect.  He's 22 years old, and just got to AAA.  That is definitely a prospect.

nycrob wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:24 PM

This is the strangest few days I've ever seen as a baseball fan.  They have traded almost the entire team!  I guess these kids could all turn out to be good, or at least some of them, but 2009 and 2010 are going to be very strange.  I think 110 losses is a very real possibility.  At this point, it won't make a difference to dump Duke for a decent return, but it will hurt to get shut out by him a few times a year.

GrahamKoonce'ssweetpackagedeal wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:24 PM

I still wish we had gotten them to give us back Hossa.

I would love to see us lose the rest of the games this year and draft Bryce Harper, that would be AMAZING

radio wave wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:24 PM

Good evening inmates near and far.

Instead of selling programs, they should hand out etch-a-sketches.POH and Capn, are you nice folks starting to lose faith?

I hate this trade: you don't do this within your own division, especially the hated Cubs. Mr. Hadar, will you go to Principle Field to see Gorzo? I've been saying all along these  are payroll decisions, not performance decisions. I won't mind if Capps goes, but they can't trade starters from MlB, can they?...

DK great work. As Johnny Carson used to say, stay tunned, more to come.  

pghfaninstl wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:26 PM

Ahoy!

Leadoff, you beat me to it re: RH hitters within the division.

Think about all of the right handed hitters in the NL Central that can beat you:  Pujols, Holliday and Ludwick; A. Ramirez, Soriano and Bell; C. Lee, Pence, Tejada; Phillips and Hairston Jr. from the Reds; Braun, Cameron, Weeks, Hall, Hart, Hardy, practically the whole Brewers lineup except for Fielder...hmmmm, is that why we have been whipped lately by them?

I see the plan and I like it.

Tor Eckman wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:27 PM

I don't understand the uproar about this trade.  Gorzo had pitched his way to the minors.  He had pitched decently at Indy but he wasn't exactly lights out against AAA hitters.  He did ok.

Grabow was GONE at the end of the season.  As for not having a decent lefty for the rest of the season, that is true.  It's also moot.  This team can and will lose with or without a decent left handed reliever and quite frankly it's better that they do lose out.

jersey joe wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:27 PM

John Grabow has done a good job for us.  I would have a serious problem with extending him or signing for multiple years because the moment one of those chips is in a spot that is not good for him, he will not pitch.

Gorzo, I had hoped he had left his shadows behind and would be up.

My guess its the chip

there once was a thing called a chip

when they  hurt you pitch with zip

We had a guy named john

he will now be gone

lets hope he does not turn out to be a gyp

Good luck John  hope the arm holds out.

Eight was Great! wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:28 PM

We have more options this year than last folks...we couldnt even talk about options this time last year...it sucked!

MLB network talking heads actually say this housecleaning was needed to start fresh and get things moving...

Steph_FanInMontreal wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:28 PM

I am completely 100% behind Neal and these trades. I see hope, maybe being a contender as soon as 2011. The overall pitching generally looks good at this time (and should only get better). We just need some timely hitting to turn things around for this season.

If we could just move Jones to first, Young stays at second, and have Milledge, Moss, Laroche and Cedeno bat well, we might have a decent end to this season (lose 85 games), and perhaps finally cross .500 in 2010, with a couple of the prospects making their way to the PBC.

The losing culture will change... and change soon. The feeling of the Pirates being a contender will be more satisfying than the Steelers winning Super Bowls. It's coming, I feel it.

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:29 PM

Daryl- Alderson will be better that the Nationals first pick in the draft.   Stratsburg will be the reason why $10 million signing bonuses will not be given to Pitchers again until 2013.  

nycrob wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:30 PM

I think Harper is a real possibility.  The Nats are coming on strong and the Pirates might lose the rest.  I very much doubt NH could muster the funds, though.

Opus Croakus wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:35 PM

Huntington must have a multi-millon dollar clause in his contract if he can trade the whole team away in a single season.  Honestly, this is beyond-the-beyond.  Pirate fans, we have a MUTINY on our hands !!

leadoff wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:36 PM

pghfaninst

I believed a year or two ago that the Pirates pitching was the reason that they could not win in their division.

I also believe that Neal thought the same thing, that is why I would not be surprised if Duke and Malhom are both gone before long, Malhom because he is not that good and Duke because of what he will bring.

I understood Neal's predicament. He looked at his minor league system and found nothing in the way of pitching. He looked at free agency and said that won't work either.

So the only way to get the talent in the system was to trade players from his major league roster and build the depth in the system that all good organizations need.

Arriba Wilver wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:37 PM

It's interesting that it is a forgone conclusion that we would not sign Grabow after the season.  I'm sure that is based on the belief that the FO would not pay whatever he would be asking.  All the talk yesterday was that Jack and Freddy were going to be surprised what their value would be on the open market because the "market had changed."  If the market's changed, why couldn't we sign Grabow?  Has the market changed for 2nd basemen and SS's and not for lefty setup relievers?  Just pondering.

BayAreaBuccaneer wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:38 PM

Ants Marching ==============

BFD wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:41 PM

This just in......OUTRAGE IN PGH

The Pirates have just traded the Parrot.....they will now be known as the Pirate Pigions..........

Cave Bonifield wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:42 PM

We received WAY more from the Cubs than what we gave away.

We actually got 2  major league ready pitchers, for a lame duck reliever and one who lost his wings.

Harrison becomes our best second base prospect in the system.

This was by far Opie best .

Eight was Great! wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:45 PM

Interesting note that other than some of our pitchers..Doumit had the most time on the team (I think). Now the losing mentality is gone...the bad body language of the "team leaders is gone...maybe Ryan told mgmt he buys into the PLAN and he will obviously become the new leader of the team. Even most of our pitchers have not been around long enough to learn to lose....

Our young guys are now fully in charge of their own futures--no excuses. It is 100% theirs for the taking.

I don't like trading with the Cubs, but they never figure into post-season anyway....

pghfaninstl wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:45 PM

Cave,

I totally agree with you, and there is much hope.

Groat2Maz2Strangeglove wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:45 PM

Left Coast Buccaneer,

Argenis Diaz is not a prospect, he's a suspect!

He cannot hit—even Huntington admitted that.

He already has 20 errors this year and it's still July.

He was moved up to AAA undeservedly by default:  we have no other shortstops!!

Throwing stuff against the wall doesn't make him a prospect.  He's a lottery ticket.

Opus Croakus wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:50 PM

The Pirates are so young now, they're gonna need notes from their parents to play night games ...

Doc wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:57 PM

"Now that the losing mentality is gone"

?????

Well, after the end of this year as they push to lose 100 games, and next year, where it is a near certainty.. it will be back with a vengence!

PressKyle wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 8:18 PM

@Why....Roberto-

You obviously missed my point, so I'll simplify it for you.

My comments had nothing to do with success this season. Currently, the Pirates are in the process of putting together a team that they hope will be competitive in 2011 or 2012, 2 or 3 years from now. To that end, they have players at nearly every position that will be gaining experience over the next 123 games in hopes of being in a position to compete at that time. Every position, that is, but left-handed relief pitching. They have no lefty who will be in a position to gain the experience of coming into a game late and trying to get out a left-handed batter.

In the 9 trades they've made over the last 2 years, they received 16 pitchers. Of those, 5 (Hansen, Ohlendorf, Karstens, Morton, and Hanrahan) have pitched for the Pirates and they are projecting that 2 others (McCutchen, Alderson) could be in Pittsburgh fairly soon. ALL of them are righties. In those trades, they traded away 3 lefties with major league experience. My point is that at least one of the players received in return should have been a lefty close to being an ML pitcher. Since none of them were, you could argue that FC/NH did not address an area of weakness. That's NOT nonsense, it's a glaring hole they haven't addressed.

It amazes me that so many 'Burghers can't reply to an opposing viewpoint without insulting the opposing person and/or their message. Can't you understand that is one of the reasons so many people outside the area laugh at our intelligence level?

It's a discussion, people, not an insult contest.

JohnnyNez wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 8:54 PM

Wow, so many of you people just don't get it!

You have accepted mediocrity as not only acceptable, but preferable.

Keeping around Bay, Nady, Wilson, Sanchez, et al. was a guarantee of more losing seasons, indefinitely.

We LOST with these guys.  For many years.  Let that sink in.

They were not the answer.

Good guys?  Absolutely.  Good players?  In isolation, many of them were.  But it wasn't working.  And it wasn't going to work going forward either.  No free agents are coming to Pittsburgh unless you drastically overpay them.  And then you're stuck with a contract you can't unload if they don't pan out.

Littlefield left this franchise in SHAMBLES.  The minors were barren.  The Major League roster was mediocre, at best.  Just relying on the draft to replenish this organization would have taken a decade, at a minimum.

It needed to be blown up and rebuilt from the ground up.  Something Bonifay and Littlefield didn't have the guts and/or knowledge to do.  Instead they kept trying to patch a leaky ship with band-aids while the water gushed in from all sides.

I get it... people are emotionally invested in players they watch day in and day out, year after year.  But the simple truth is this: other than Jason Bay, every single one of the players we traded was a mediocre to good baseball player.  Only Bay could be categorized as a very good player.

Do not accept mediocrity.  If losing for 2-3 more seasons is what it takes to truly assemble a REAL championship level team, then by gosh it's worth it!  What did you people expect to get back for the players we dealt?  Other major league players who were BETTER than the guys we gave up?  It doesn't work that way.

Personally I am quite shocked (and very pleasantly surprised) that we got the quality players back that we did for declining assets such as Wilson, Sanchez, and the others.  I understand if people don't follow the minor leagues closely, and recognize the names coming our way.  But these are legitimate prospects; some of them (particularly Alderson) high end.  

With the FO's commitment to the draft this year and last, there should be a steady stream of talent infused into the system each year, supplementing what is now there.  That is the way you build a championship team in a small to medium market.  

Instead of crying and griping, perhaps take on a fresh perspective: how much fun is it going to be watching talents such as McCutchen, Alvarez, Alderson, Morton, Clement, Tabata, and Lincoln grow and develop in the black and gold?  I would MUCH rather watch that maturation process (much like the Pens) than watch more of the same (which has given us losing baseball for 17 seasons, as you all know).

And those of you who think that the above mentioned guys will just be traded in a year or two clearly don't know anything about the arbitration process and how the rights to players work.   It's not until a player's 6th year that anyone can even begin to think about salary dumps and moving players before they reach free agency.  Yes, some guys will be moved down the line (you can't keep 'em all, ask the Pens and Steelers)... but enough can be kept and continually sustained with reinforcements from the minors if a team commits to that process.

That's precisely what's going on here... the genesis of a new way of operating here in Pittsburgh.  NH and FC aren't geniuses for this; they're simply following the PROVEN model that has worked well for other teams in similar or smaller markets than us.

Stop accepting mediocrity (or worse) from your baseball club and try and appreciate that they are making bold moves to try and break the vicious cycle of losing.  They may fail miserably, but I would much rather go down swinging for the fences than accepting the status quo that has given us nothing but nearly two decades of losing baseball.

CTBucsFan wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 9:01 PM

I'd say this deal was a steal for the Buccos.  Check this out, though.  I was just over at Chicago Trib site and cut and pasted this gem from an article about the trade:

"Now a Cub scout, Dave Littlefield was Pittsburgh GM when Gorzelanny was at his best and 'feels he's headed that way again,' according to Hendry (Cubby GM).

Yesterday, the Jints paid us back a little for the Matt Morris travesty.  Today, Littlefield is inadvertantly paying a small portion of his pennance to the Bucs.  

I never thought I'd say this but:  Thanks, Dave Littlefied.

nhurley wrote re: Grabow, Gorzelanny traded to Cubs
on Thu, Jul 30 2009 9:03 PM

I really think that if the starting pitching at the beginning of last year would have been better to go along with the surprisingly good offense this overhaul would not have been this dramatic. It was decided 60 games into last year that the current major league pitchers where not good enough to field a competitive team and the minor league had hardly nothing in the pipeline pitching wise.

It would have just been a year after year struggle to have quality pitching and the money spent to keep the players putting up good offensive numbers would have prohibited a small market team from signing quality pitching free agents.

So they decided to trade those offensive pieces to rebuild both the pitching and fielding prospects, and then this year trade those pitchers for more pitchers because they now have Mortan, Olendorph, and Karstans to fill roles for a while. If Snell and Gorzo pitched better at the beginning of last year the current management group would have had more faith in them, but they are more comfortable going with their own guys. Hopefully they are good evaluators of talent.