Grabow: Building gradually 'never worked'

We received WAY more from the Cubs than what we gave away.

We actually got 2  major league ready pitchers, for a lame duck reliever and one who lost his wings.

Harrison becomes our best second base prospect in the system.

This was by far Opie best .

Very true words from Grabow.

I am a big fan of what they have done in prinicipal.

It is all a matter of developing the players that they required appropriately, while also having some luck with a few players exceeding expectations.

It is going to be an interesting 3 year window to see what happens...

Darn... I am hooked again.

Interesting note that other than some of our pitchers..Doumit had the most time on the team (I think). Now the losing mentality is gone...the bad body language of the "team leaders is gone...maybe Ryan told mgmt he buys into the PLAN and he will obviously become the new leader of the team. Even most of our pitchers have not been around long enough to learn to lose....

Our young guys are now fully in charge of their own futures--no excuses. It is 100% theirs for the taking.

I don't like trading with the Cubs, but they never figure into post-season anyway....

PACKAGE DEAL !!!!!

I just had to say it since DK was always saying no package deals and this year we packaged away almost the entire 25 man roster. The last package could be Neil for Opie and Potsy and Ralph Malph.

Left Coast Buccaneer,

Argenis Diaz is not a prospect, he's a suspect!

He cannot hit—even Huntington admitted that.

He already has 20 errors this year and it's still July.

He was moved up to AAA undeservedly by default:  we have no other shortstops!!

Throwing stuff against the wall doesn't make him a prospect.  He's a lottery ticket.

Haven't posted in awhile, but wanted to voice my approval for NH's decision to truly rebuild...Grabow nailed it on the head,piece at a time wasn't working.  I have no idea if this is going to work or not, but what we had certainly wasn't working...I am excited to see AMAC become the new face of the team.

-also, payroll doesn't bother me, the most fun I have had following these guys was in 97...but if this does work, the true test of FO is if they pay these guys in a few years...for some reason, I think they will.

cave

I agree this was a great deal, but I don't know if I'd say it was his best thus far.

I know it has nothing to do with winning, but Jack Wilson + Freddy Sanchez + John Grabow = CLASS in the way they handled themselves with these trades and their comments. I hope their replacements are equally as classy and good players like they were.

kybuc,

I have been thinking the same thing regarding 1997 but I feel that the rest of this year is going to be more like the last half of 1987.  Here's to hoping so!

The starting pitching is there.  The Bucs need those timely hits to finish the job.

G2M2SG

22 year olds in AAA are prospects. His glove is well above average (errors are not considered remotely worthwhile stats in minor league games for a ton of reasons).  He is a light hitting shortstop.  So is the guy we traded away.  (Who, by the way, went from AA to the majors because we had no one else. At least they didn't do that with Diaz.)

Too many ant trails - -  reposting from last thread

Seeing Mad's avatar of Maz rounding third holding his cap makes me want to pay one last tribute to Freddy. Remember his walk-off homer in 2006 against the White Sox to break the 13-game losing streak? There's a great picture of Freddy reaching home holding his cap similar to the Maz picture. Anyone know where there is an electronic copy of it?

Sad to say that was one of the highs in Pirate baseball these last few years, but it was exciting.

The reason this deal wasn't the best one is because we've made several really good ones.

The best deal was Nate McLouth and his half season of elite production, coupled with mediocre production since (hitting in the .250s as usual right now) for Charlie Morton and his plus stuff, Gorkys Hernandez and his tools/youth that project out to be better than Nate anyway, and Jeff Locke, an intriguing prospect.  Of course, people here would have you believe that Locke's failures over the first eight weeks of his time with the organization mean he'll never be anything. Whatever.

The next best trade was Nady/Marte for Ohlendorf, Karstens, DMcCutchen and Tabata.  That trade was basically highway robbery.  And the NY papers sang Cashman's praises talking about how he fleeced Neal.  I'll bet Neal laughs about that trade every time he thinks of it.

Dejan, may I pitch a story idea to you?  With Chuck and your reports about Jack telling his wife about the trade while she was at a wives' weekend, and Grabow's comments about meeting his wife in Pittsbugh, I think it would make for an interesting On The Pirates feature looking at players' wives' reactions to the trades, how that disrupts family lives, disrupts friendships they've made with each other.  We've discussed ad naseum the pros and cons of each deal, but I'd be interested in reading more of the human side of these trades.  We know that Freddy and Jack will miss wag other, but how are the families affected? (also read about how Jack and adam's kids played together)

Allright guys, let's play rank 'em. Me first.

1. Pedro Alvarez

2. Tim Alderson

3. Jose Tabata

4. Brad Lincoln

5. Gorkys Hernandez

6. Tony Sanchez

7. Rudy Owens

8.Jeff Locke

9. Robbie Grossman

10. Bryan Morris

Others: Starling Marte, Micheal Dubee, Daniel Moskos, Neil Walker, Daniel McCutchen, Jim Negrych

Sano slots at #2 and everybody drops down a notch.

How about you guys?

I think Grabow's going to do well in Chicago. They may even keep him over 2 months.

I think it's a pretty good return for 2 months of Grabow and Gorzo. Gorzo might put it together again, but Hart is already putting it together at the MLB level.

Starting tomorrow, we'll begin finding out if the Morgan for Milledge trade was worth it.

Although missing Grabow for the final 2 months of the season will definitely be a negative that may affect the win-loss column, I don't think missing Jack and Freddy will be that bad.

Young's bat is about equal to Freddy - if not more lately. Replacing Moss with Milledge will probably offset the offense lost between Jack and Cedeno.

Adding Hart to the lineup will more than make up for Wilson's defense. I would guess the Pirates will go about 5 or 6 under .500 from here on out and finish about 20 games under for the year. I'm now routing for the Pirates to beat the 2004 Pirates, who ended 17 games under 500.

Bay brings up a great point: AA and lower level stats really don't mean a whole lot. Stats start to make better sense at AAA. Remember A and AA are still instructional...pitchers trying to learn new tosses and ways....fielders learning to play each pitch and each situation and working on specific things coaches want to see...as an example, the ptiching staff may have locke working on his slider more than any other pitch...I know they have told pitchers before "disregard stats--work on the pitch."

Another one you can chalk up to OPIE...........Give us 2 years , maybe next year, I love our current lineup, Players arent selfish with the bat, If I could count how many times JACK/FREDDY Swung at the first pitch to kill a rally . the number would be high, lets just say that, The future is NOW, No more rebuilding , its over, GET CAPPS OUTTA HERE and we are coming back STRONGER THAN WE HAVE EVER BEEN.

Good luck, John.  Even though I am no fan of the Cubs, to put it mildly, I do hope you do well.

More ants...Milledge a regular.  I like it as well!

frustrated_314

I'll never forget that game! And I'll find it.

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WilliamWallace

1. Alderson

2. Alvarez

3.Tabata

4. Lincoln

5. Hernandez

6. Sanchez

7. Grossman

8. Marte

9. Ownes

10. Morris

Ww, that's a pretty good list.  I'd put Lincoln ahead of Tabata, but otherwise agree.

In the low minors, the Bucs have guys on strict pitch counts.  Guys in A ball may have 25 pitch in one inning limit.  So they may get in a jam, walk a couple of guys, hit their limit, and get pulled.  They don't get the chance to come back out, and pitch a few more good innings to get the ERA down.  

And guys like Snell and Gorzo out up nice ERAs, but if you watch them pitch, they can't locate.  They nibble around the strikezone.  It works in AAA because each team may only have 2-3 good hitters.  The other guys in the lineup will chase bad pitches, and can't take advantage when they get ahead in the count.  In the majors, its much different.  

Moskos winds up getting the win. 5 IP, 4 H, 1 ER, 5 BB, 4 K, 2 HBP.  Not a good game for him in that he put a bunch of guys on base, but he evens his record to 8-8 and lowers his ERA to 3.81.  Tabata 1-3 plus gunning a guy at home. Gorkys and Pedro 0-3, though Gorkys had an RBI.

If anyone has MLB network (213 on directv), the White Sox/Yanks in rain delay...are now showing Seattle/Texas...I fully support trading Jack and liked the return, but hope he does well.Don't know if he is in the line-up tonight.

marty/fat jimmy

Lincoln is below Gorkys in the eyes of the talent evaluators. Just fyi.  Most here seem to value Lincoln highly, but he's not considered as high-end as Gorkys.

Not to be critical or branded again as a FO hater, but how can judge this FOs trades?

Its a fire sale, a deconstruction, ok, I asked for this, but again, what is Neal's track record?

Do we really think he cleaned everyones clock with these trades?

Heck, he still doesn't communicate to us, or others, regarding a real honoralbe dignity type response to all of this.

He downgraded people, ran them down, did not openly or honestly communicate to them, how many players have respect for him or his workings?

And as noted by Batavia, on the surface, the players had dignity and class as they exited, character, honor, no one of these guys were gold diggers, Freddy signed a contract, PBC would not honor it, Grabow did not rob the piggybank, a realistic conttract, JW, ok got too much but the guy cried when we traded him, Neal said he was a below average player, and a 167 hitter could replace him.

And on and on it goes, please anyone but leadoff, tell me why I should once again sell my heart and soul to this FO?

I want to see progress, and remember Clement could represent PA in two years

I would love to support this team, Mgmt, but I don't see why right now, Opies statements are trite, practiced, wooga wooga, FC is among the clouds saying good job grasshopper

IMO of course, but show me Opie, one darn time

Until then, I respectfully throw the BS flag

And I aint going nowhere, its my team

My rankings and ravings:

1. Tim Alderson: Love the upside and pitching takes top spot.

2. Jose Tabata: Quiet but solid

3. Pedro Alvarez: hitting a ton...needs some refinement but I see him with the big club in 2010.

4. Tony Sanchez: great work ethic and love the attitude along with his hitting.

5. Brad Lincoln: has good stuff and will see Pittsburgh in 2010.

6. Michael Dubee: We need him now but still needs some work...

7. Gorkys Hernandez: Could play now but I see him late 2010.

8. Daniel McCutchen: Better than his numbers show...remember Indy has no reall hitters right now...

9. Jeff Locke: I think the sleeper of all sleepers in the McClouth trade...

10. Robbie Grossman: Good numbers and quiet efficiency...

I will not include a 16-year old kid yet...

Wilson is in the Mariners lineup and batting 7th...

Left Coast Buccaneer,

Not interested in arguing with you.  Everyone's a little testy anyway!

Just because Yoslan Herrera pitched for the Pirates last year never made him a Major Leaguer.  It just proved that he wasn't.

Diaz has yet to prove anything at AA, much less AAA.  He is not a prospect yet, just a possibility.  

I see a legitimate prospect as a probability!  

Your supposed definition makes every Minor Leaguer a prospect.

By the way, Jack Wilson came to the Pirates from AAA, where he hit .369 in 115 PA, with a .430 OB%, and 3 errors in the field.  He earned his way here from AAA.

I'm keeping Lincoln at #3 because he's at AAA.  Gorkys may project higher, but not so much more than Lincoln to overlook what he's doing at AAA.

Groat

You don't have to argue with me, but at least know what you're talking about.

Jack Wilson came from AA Altoona, where he hit .252. Overall that season he hit .282 in AA.  He made 19 errors in that year.  He started the next year in the bigs, going from AA to the majors.  He floundered so badly that he was sent down.  

THEN he tore up AAA.

@BayArea

Good points there! It's hard to believe when people still bring up McLouth as a salary dump. Somehow they forget we got a pretty darn good pitcher for him - and THEN SOME.

We'll just have to see what happens with the Morgan/Milledge trade, but otherwise the Bay trade is the only one that seems to be have the Pirates on the negative side. The Nady trade is looking to be so good it balances that out.

"they've tried to build things piece by piece, and it's never worked. So, I think they've come to the conclusion that, well, let's completely overhaul it, get a young group of players and have them all flourish at the same time."

Bless you John Grabow.  

I hate the Cubs but I will be cheering for you.

Good luck to Grabow. I thought he was really solid for the Pirates, and I'm certainly disappointed to see him go to the Cubs, but I hope he continues to have a good season and career.

I'd say this deal was a steal for the Buccos.  Check this out, though.  I was just over at Chicago Trib site and cut and pasted this gem from an article about the trade:

"Now a Cub scout, Dave Littlefield was Pittsburgh GM when Gorzelanny was at his best and 'feels he's headed that way again,' according to Hendry (Cubby GM).

Yesterday, the Jints paid us back a little for the Matt Morris travesty.  Today, Littlefield is inadvertantly paying a small portion of his pennance to the Bucs.  

I never thought I'd say this but:  Thanks, Dave Littlefied.

I liked Grabow and Burnett and these two were very steady for this team, IMO hard to replace.

Saw Hart pitching today, hit one guy, the umpire got hit twice (Not directly however), no one is digging in against this guy, not even the umpire.

The problem I have with this whole deal is that the FO has basically written off the next three years. If things work out as planned, they may be OK in 2012, but that is a big if. It's a great theory, but......

This will be great if I am buying a ticket for 2012. But, if I buy a ticket for a game next week I would like to think I'd drive to Pittsburgh to watch major league baseball, not a AA team "developing" into one. That is the rub.

I can drive to Altoona and watch the same thing, cheaper. And, at some point, the FO is going to have to pay, and I reall don't have any confidence that they will.

Major League baseball in Pittsburgh is a memory. My opinion? Disband the NL franchise, join a AAA league, and give the taxpayers back some of the money they ponied up for PNC Park.

I like all the trades. Check out my ridiculous blog post, with a complete list of all the Pirates prospects.

eatsleepmlb.mlblogs.com/.../the_future_of_the_pittsburgh_p.html