Pirates trade Wilson, Snell to Seattle; significant cash to Mariners, too

I have faith in Neal but I hope he knows what he is doing.  Are we going to deal Freddy today as well?

DK...  nice job breaking the story.  Anxious to hear what we did or did not get in return.  

oh nooooo Mr. Bill......

Sigh......

Hastened by Cruz' showing at the plate last night, I wonder? Two hits in the middle of this dearth ... never know.

Wow. This just hit me like a ton of bricks.  I knew it was coming, but still.  I loved Jack Wilson.  Still do.  Goodbye Jack. We wish you nothing but the best forever. And you'll always be a Pirate to me.

wonder how long it will be before the server starts freezing up

Aw, Jack. I'll miss you. You were a joy to watch play.

Well, that's definitely a quantity-type return. Have to see about quality.

Good luck, Jack & Ian.

I would hope that the fact that Cruz had 2 hits last night would mean absolutely nothing in terms of the FO deciding to make this deal.  They've known quite some time what Cruz can and cannot do.  One game means nothing.  

If this is true, this is a GREAT return. I have to assume we sent money.

wow...  never saw Snell going in that deal.  5 players...  hope there is some talent there.  

Sad day. I WANT to understand the reasoning. I WANT to think that in a few years the team will be competitive. I HOPE the front office is right. I EXPECT this afternoon to be a loaded day for the server. I HATE that I'll have to leave the office right now. I'll have to follow the aftermath through Twitter, then.

It's just too bittersweet.

I guess there was a good reason we have been heavily scouting the Mariners. Clement has a big time rep. and he can catch for whatever that is worth, Cedeno is filler til our next wave is ready, the three pitchers are the make or break in the trade IMHO

...wow more than TWO Double AA pitchers...look at all of the toys we can play with in the minor leagues  !!

;-)

Clement is a really good prospect.  I think it's a good deal.  Clement is a really good hitting prospect for a catcher, but maybe not for a 1B or a corner outfielder.  It's kind of similar to the dilemma when Doumit was coming up.  Seattle must have decided that he couldn't stay at catcher or had soured on him in general.  Otherwise, I don't see why they'd do this, even if they sign Wilson to an extension.  Maybe they were happy to get Snell as well to try and sneak back in the race.

Cedeno can take Wilson's place in the short-term.  I hope this doesn't lead to a Doumit trade now or in the off-season, but it might.  The Pirates will probably want to see Clement catch for themselves before deciding whether he can stay there.  

I didn't like the haul from the McLouth trade or the draft strategy.  But, between this and the Milledge trade, the Pirates have added some real talent.

Wow - the defense will never be the same.  Jack spoiled us with his unbelievable play at shortstop.  

After a quick stat check, Pribanic and Lorin are pretty intriguing.

WE WILL MISS YOU JACK

Tim Kurjian on ESPN just said this really favors the Mariners and that Pirate fans will be angry.

Clement is going to be 26 in AUG...  Cedeno is already 26 and stats remind me of Bixler.  Hope these pitchers are more to be excited about.  

If Wilson and Sanchez are dealt it will just clear time to concentrate on Grabow/Capps deals over the next 2 days.  

I wonder who the "key" is in this trade?

Hopefully we got another Bryan Morris or Jeff Locke.

Pribanic was a 3rd rounder in last years draft. He's 7-6, 3.21 ERA in 87 IP for Class A team. 54 K, 26 BB, 1.17 WHIP. 6'4" 200 lb, Righty. From Univ. of Nebraska. Turns 23 in September.

Brett Lorin is in A ball. 5th rounder last year. 5-4, 2.44 ERA. 88 IP, 87 K, 25 BB, 0.97 WHIP. He's 22 years old, 6'7" 245, righty.

Nathan Adcock is 21. 6'5" 190 lb Righty 5th rounder in 2006 (high schooler).  In advanced A he's 5-7, 102 IP 5.29 ERA, 71 K, 54 BB, 1.54 WHIP.

I wonder if the Clemens acquisition is an indication that Doumit will be dumped this week too?

         IN NEAL WE TRUST!

Did Tim Kurkijan happen to mention why he favors SEA in this deal and why Pirates fans will not be happy?  

Pribanic went 7-6 with a 3.21 ERA (87.0ip/31er) while surrendering just one home run in 17 starts for Single-A Clinton of the Midwest League this year while being named to the league’s mid-season All-Star team. He was charged with two earned runs or fewer in 12 of his first 13 outings, won six of his first eight decisions, had an ERA below 3.00 after his first 15 starts and entered today’s action ranked 10th in the league in that category

Adcock was rated Mariners 24th best prospect, Pribanic #27 and Lorin #28.

Lorin went 5-4 with a 2.44 ERA (88.2ip/24er), 87 strikeouts and just 25 walks in 16 starts this year for Single-A Clinton. The 6-foot-7 righthander was named to this year’s Midwest League All-Star team after leading the league with 77 strikeouts at the All-Star break. The 22-year-old righthander entered today’s action ranked third among all Midwest League pitchers in ERA (2.44) after allowing two earned runs or fewer in nine of his first 10 outings, which included a 0.75 mark after his first four starts (24.0ip/2er).

Tim Kurkjan is nuts. This is a GREAT trade for the Pirates if we didn't pay them all of Ian's and Jack's money.  We got a lot of talent here. Clement is a very highly rated prospect who is ready to contribute. Say goodbye to Steve Pearce. He's clearly done.

 Adcock went 5-7 with a 5.29 ERA (102.0ip/60er) in 21 games (19 starts) with Single-A High Desert of the California League. He went 5-3 with a 3.70 ERA (82.2ip/34er) in 14 starts before the All-Star Game and was charged with three earned runs or fewer in 10 of his 19 starting assignments.

“Nathan has shown our scouts quality pitching instincts, including a curveball that was ranked the best in Seattle’s system by Baseball America,” said Huntington. “Despite pitching in the worst pitcher’s park in baseball in High Desert of the California League, Adcock has shown the ability to get ground balls with an advanced three-pitch mix and the ability to locate his 91-plus mile per hour fastball, which are crucial tools in a Major League pitcher.”

Dejan,

Are the Pirates sending any money to the Mariners to cover part of Wilson and Snell's salaries?

PACKAGE DEAL! PACKAGE DEAL!! - No soup for SOMEBODY that I won't name.

I'm kind of disappointed about Snell. I was really looking forward to that PoH Bake Sale at PNC Park she promised if NH just gave Snell away.

Did we get any power arms with a downward plane?

JACK AND IAN ARE A FLEEIN!

Great trade NH!

Clements cant play catcher any longer due to his bad knees, but Wilson and Snell were both ridiculously overpaid.

I was against the Bay trade and the Nate trade, if we had Bay in RF and Nate in LF with McC in CF we would have an all star OF...oh well.

The pirates cant win by overpaying mediocre players like Wilson.  he has a good glove but his hitting is no where near where it needs to be for the salary he expects.

DK - awesome reporting as always!

I guess I understand stockpiling talent, but where, exactly, will Clement fill in? He's listed as DH (not available in NL), C (Doumit's place) or 1B (Jones/Pearce).

Am I missing something?

Ronny Cedeno's stats aren't exactly mind-boggling, either.

Snell in Seattle is perfect.  Starbucks will keep him alert and focused at all times.

Trading two guys and getting at least one really good prospect back is good (and that's not counting the 4 other guys we got back).  The Suppan/Sauerbeck for Freddy Sanchez deal of years ago was like that (as opposed to a deal of one good player for 2-3 prospects).  I wouldn't mind Clement as the starting firstbaseman next spring, although I think this could lead to a Doumit trade before next spring starts.  

Even if Seattle thinks that Clement needed to switch positions, he's still a better hitting prospect for them at 1B or DH than what's in their system.  If I were a Seattle fan, I wouldn't be happy (unless Snell comes through big, big time).  I don't see them having a chance of running down the Angels with Vlad and Torii Hunter about to return from injury.  I think it's an awful deal for them.  

I don't even know anything about the 3 pitchers coming back.  I think it would have been a good deal without them.  Let's see what Freddy Sanchez can bring us (and Grabow), play out the rest of the year as a tryout camp, and re-evaluate what we have in the off-season.    

This looks like Seattle cleaned out their cupboard and sold the contents to Opie.

Nothing too exciting in this grab bag.

This is not a salary dump.

This is not a salary dump.

Rinse and repeat.

"Adcock was rated Mariners 24th best prospect, Pribanic #27 and Lorin #28."

LOL!!!!

This was absolutely the right thing to do.  Great move, good return for a light hitting shortstop.

I am more worried about what Snell could become.  But all in all I think this is a great trade.  Lets move on with a positive attitude and watch these exciting young players come through the system.

I think it is an important turning point for the Pirates to have done the right thing as opposed to the good PR move.  Remember Kevin Young?  Better to have Tabata, Alvarez, Gookys, McCuthcen, etc. in my opinion.  Jack Wilson was not the future.  He was the present, and the present is not very good.  

I'm with the "hit me like a wall of bricks" crowd.

But, wholey COW is that Lorin kid big!  And I'm loving the K's to BB's ratio.

I wondered why Pribanic sounded familiar...must be a residual memory from when I lived in Lincoln.  

I'm sad to see Jack go...Snell, not so much.  Jack's shoes are going to be very hard to fill.  

Cedeno has a pretty good average at .292. Oh wait, that's his slugging percentage....

I wonder which "bolt" Jack and Ian are in the FO's trade toobox.  I would say that Seattle got 1 bolt (Wilson) and 1 nut (Snell).

I like this trade.

Shortstop is a very demanding position.  Wilson's 31 year old legs are not getting any faster and he's becoming injury prone.  Just like Sanchez.  2-3 more years and they'll be out of the league or playing a bench role.

I love how everyone puts so much stock in the prospect ratings...  almost silly and narrow minded.   How many of the Pirates top 20 prospects from 5 years ago are in the majors?  Get a clue.  

I think we'll see Clement at 1B, Young at 2B (once Freddy is unloaded to the Giants), and Jones in the OF.  Clearly Cedeno will be at SS.

Does this mean Jack is featured on SportsCenter's Top 10 more now for his defenseive prowess??

Well I think the silver lining in all of this, and this is something that I think we can all agree on is a wonderful, wonderful thing.....is that Bob Nutting will earn more profits now.

Great job Neal!!!

...the Pirate Parrot is the LONGEST TENURED Pirate ..and he/she has been in the outfit for 7 hours

I have to think the constant addition of catchers (Clement, T. Sanchez, Diaz, Jaramillo) since Doumit's emergence last year is going to lead to a Doumit deal at some point.  Since this deal is 2 days before the deadline, I can't help but think that this gives some time for a Doumit deal by Friday.  

Doumit to the Red Sox makes a lot of sense.  They've been looking at Victor Martinez.  So, they have catching on their mind.  They won't deal Clay Buchholz, but they have a next tier of prospects that are really good.  I don't want him to go.  But, as we know, no one is untouchable and catcher is a position of depth now that Clement is here.

This a good deal.  They weren't going to pick up WIlson's option and had obviously soured on Snell.  Clement is a good prospect.  I wouldn't mind seeing him at 1B, Milledge, and G. Jones in RF next opening day.  But, I think it's more likely that Clement will be catching and Doumit will be elsehwere.  Let's see what Freddy and Grabow (and maybe Doumit) bring us.  

Good return player wise but I would think the amount of $ going to seattle is really key to evaluating this trade.  Snell was a valuable chip.

hey guys hate to ruin the optimism but I live here in Seattle and the general take from the local sports radio is the following:

Clement is damaged goods...his knees are shot and really didn't have a future with the M's

Not really broken hearted about Cedeno's departure...

And the pitchers are generally throw in players that aren't considered top name prospects in the M's minor league system.

take if for what it's worth, but they generally think they got a great deal from the Bucco's.

<sigh>

DaveD

#24, #27, and #28, plus a couple of 26yr olds?  Awesome.

NuHo

Why laugh at the ratings of the three pitchers? We also got their NUMBER ONE overall prospect in Clement.  

The Pirates will have the worst defensive infield in the majors when Clement is on 1st, Alvarez is at 3rd and Jack and Freddy elsewhere.

hate trades because they bring this site to stop--ugh

I'm hoping we actually sent money too in order to beef up the talent included on their side of the deal.  That's what good teams do.

Also, I don't care where they are ranked.  It's like preseason fantasy football rankings.  Everything is based on last season's results or draft position and nothing really projecting going forward.  If the #1 prospect in 2007 has a bad 2008, he might slip to 10th even though he's the same guy and likely will turn it around, so I don't buy any of that junk.

Clement is not a catcher. He has caught, but he is not likely to keep doing so because of his knees. So the theory that this makes Doumit expendable doesn't really hold.

Also, are we the first team to ever trade for a guy in an 0-22 slump?  Cedeno may not even bring any bats with him.

Time to go fishing

@JAL I know what you mean, took me 5 minutes to simply sign on

Bucco Nation (40 States in the Union)

Still looking for inmates from the following:

Alabama, Alaska, Arkansas, Hawaii, Minnesota, North Dakota,

Oklahoma, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Wyoming

We have heard from 13 countrys: Australia, Brazil, Canada, China, Colombia, England, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Phillipines, Scotland, Zambia and of course, the USA.

Methinks, Mr Huntington just got taken to the cleaners :{

CEDENO IS GOING TO HELP OUR PITCHERS WITH HIS DEFENSE?

Dejan, call Neil on this steaming pile of bullcrap, please.

Good to see that this hotshot 1st base prospect is damaged goods, and has sucked in his shots in the majors.

Nothing, and I repeat, NOTHING changes here.

I've noted incessantly that I know a scout for an American League team.  He tells me that Clement has the tools and pedigree to be an above-average major league hitter, but everyone's getting nervous waiting for it to happen.  Also says that he's personally scouted Lorin and the guy's a truly good prospect.  Was familiar with the other two names, but hadn't seen them and didn't know too much other than what's out there.

This may have been mentioned, but the front office is genius.  My understanding is that they essentially get draft picks, without having to pay any signing bonus.  Yet more ways to cut costs.  If they ever lose their current jobs, there's no doubt a Walmart franchise waiting for them somewhere.

The players may turn out to be decent, but my hopes are low for Clement.  Seems like he could some day develop into a decent DH.  The catching equivalent of Pearce?

@DaveD - re - but they generally think they got a great deal from the Bucco's.

Thats why we're the best farm system in baseball

Sigh...

Though it's not a surprise at all, it is a sham of massive proportions.

A journeyman SS batting .167...A guy that can't get out of Triple A and can't play defense (ummm...we're in the National League...right?)...and of course 2 A-ballers.

You now find yourself in the WORST part of the Pirates long history.

Just a few more trades, and there won't be anything left to trade....for about a year.

You have been swindled beyond belief.

Most of you know it....Some of you don't....All of you will.

The swindle goes on & on & on & on.....

I kinda thought the Brewers might contact the Bucs about Snell, they need any starting pitching they can get.  

I don't really see a place for Clement in the organization, Cedeno is clearly a placeholder, not a part of the future, but the pitchers are kind of intriguing.  I suspect this was the best deal that NH could arrange, considering the price tag on Wilson and the toe tag on Snell.  

"Ronny is a solid major league defensive-oriented shortstop," Huntington said. "We feel we can help him become more productive with the bat, while his defense helps our pitching staff."

We can help him become more productive with the bat? Why have they been withholding these tips to the rest of the team?  Am I missing something in that poor hitters are coming here and all of a sudden the Buccos make them good hitters? Who is Neal trying to fool with that one?

wow, just think how amazing our baseball operations are going to be now that our payroll consists of minimum wage players.  I wonder if bonuses and raises to the GM and scouts are included in "operations" because honestly I don't see how all the money being dumped is still staying in the budget like Nutting keeps saying.

What a sad year for the Pirates.  I guess as long as people are willing to watch our minor league All-Star team play on bobblehead and fireworks night, nothing will ever change.  Sad day.

Clement is another player with ties to Iowa(Marshalltown).Unfortunately Ramon Vazquez and Hanrahan were the others.

MLB.com's Jonathan Mayo calls it a "pretty good haul" for the Pirates and Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus says it's the best deal the Pirates have made yet.

NuttingHostage-

How does this increase Nutting's profits when significant cash was sent to Seattle?  The Pirates might not have save anything more than $1 million in this deal for all we know, whoopee.  Nothing worth getting on Nutting's back for.

 I'm new to this board, I'm usually on another Pirates board, you usually have 1 poster who comments on minor league games, from Wilmington De.. Well I was at the Hillcats / Blue Rocks game last night, and sitiing in front of the extra Hillcats pitchers, was a scout for the Cubs, yes he had a nice tan, yes his hair is still in place, no I didn't bring up the 2-headed Matt monster to him, no I didn't bring up the dreaded S-word to him( Scott Boras). I'm just wondering what Hillcats player he's scouting for the Cubs? As for the trade it's never about money, right Bob?

"hey guys hate to ruin the optimism but I live here in Seattle and the general take from the local sports radio is the following:"

Thanks DaveD because talk radio is always the best source of information.  ;-)

I sit corrected.  They are sending significant cash too...they must really like the return.  I hope they're right.

While there's never a trade that will please everyone, I think signing Sano will smooth everything over with any of the (p)irate fans out there.

Do we need the sympathy updates for Wilson from DK?  If he kept his mouth shut after the McLouth deal maybe he would have received a call after the deal was made.  I would think that $7.5 million would help him deal with the disrespect he is getting.  NH probably didn't call him because he was too busy laughing at how much return he got for these two stiffs.

Seems like a fair return for Wilson and Snell.  In other words, nothing special.  I understand why they want to trade both players, but if you're not going to get much back, why do it?

They basically got: a defensively deficient former top prospect, an offensively deficient stop-gap SS, and three young minor league pitchers.  None of these five were ranked among Seattle's top ten prospects this year.

G-Man: It's not a package deal.  DK has always defined "package deal" as more than one major leaguer from the same team being traded.

Jefft wrote:

Well, that's definitely a quantity-type return. Have to see about quality.

___________________________________________________

Stalin said "There is a certain quality in quantity."  I like the idea of piling up arms in the minor leagues; odds are at least a few will pan out.

This situation reminds me of when I had to sell my grandpa's house.  He had passed away and his house was outta state and I couldn't be an absentee landlord at the time, and the estate had a few debts that needed payed, etc.  I loved that house.  It meant a lot to me.  My grandpa built it with his own hands and cared for it all his 50 years he lived in it.  I quickly found out that the open market could give a crap about sentimental value.  That's how I feel about Wilson; he means more to the Pirates than probably any other team in the league.  But I can't be disappointed in the return for an expensive, light-hitting, superb-fielding, aging SS and an expensive, inconsistent RHP who throws more excuses than strikes.  Good luck to Jack and good luck to the new guys.  What are Snell's excuses gonna be now, I wonder?

No way in hell you can fault NH for this one...,Jack was getting hurt tying his shoes....We got there no 1 prospect and got rid of mini mike Tyson who needed a new start.....I am excited

Instead of tying up this server, I think it's time to tie up the main line to the Pirate FO.

These people need to hear it not just in writing, but also verbally.

They are indeed the scum of the corporate earth that supposedly work in the field of baseball.

I don't know how Neil Huntington could show his nerdy face in front of the media.

Unbelievable!

Trade 'em all!.....And get a load of crap in return.

The swindle....Spinning on & on & on & on!

I love some of these comments.  We had to trade the players because they were overpaid.  HELLO, we had the 3rd lowest payroll in MLB before these dumps.  Have any of you ever questioned anyone about anything or do you accept everything you are told?  

For what it's worth, Clement was the #2 prospect in Seattle chain Last year.  This year, he's not in the top 15.  Do you think Seattle knew something.  TWO MAJOR LEAGUE players for what?

Keep giong Neil, keep pumping up the $$ for Nutting

Your Welcome  21sthebest

I thought you guys would be interested in hearing the other side of the story...

And beyond that folks are thinking Clement can catch and that is just not true...his knees are gone...that I do know by living here for way way too long (had to put up with the whining about the Steelers)

:)

DaveD

TK 33  To answer your question:

Here is a list of our top prospects from 5 years ago (2004 as rated by Baseball America)

#2 Sean Burnett

#3 Jason Bay

#6 Ian Snell

#7 Freddie Sanchez

#8 Paul Maholm

#10 Ryan Doumit

#15 Zach Duke

#16 Nyjer Morgan

#18 Nate McLouth

#19 Tom Gorzelanny

#20 Mike Gonzalez

That is 11 out of 20 with 4 All Stars.

So much for those "silly and narrow minded" prospect ratings.

The pirates could have gotten ichiro in this deal and some "posters" wouldn't be happy.  Jack is and AVERAGE player, good glove, weak bat and greatly overpaid.  Snell has a two-cent head.  The fact that we got anything for these two over-paid players is great.  

I also find it laughable that people are concerned about Doumit leaving.  Clement is unable to catch, but also since when did Doumit become Johnny Bench, and what makes people believe we will get anything of consequence for an often-injured catcher, who just a year ago the pirates doubted his defensive abilities as well as his ability to call a game in the majors.  Again, a case of fans overvaluing the talent on this team.

jtown

Clement wasn't rated a prospect this year because he had over 200 AB in Seattle in 2008.  That disqualifies him from the BB America list.

Jack -- I loved watching you play from your first days in Altoona and all the years with the Bucs.  You always played with a passion and it showed.  I'll miss seeing you make those fantasic plays in the hole and all those double plays.  Good luck with Seattle!

Jtown-

a) Clement WAS #1 last year by BA, so depends where you read

b) He isn't top-15 b/c he lost "prospect status" by playing in the Majors.

Good move, me thinks.  After this last round of childish garbage, the Pirates' FO was never going to get along with Snell (or vice versa).  And a defensive-minded SS for a defensive-minded SS, at a fraction of the price, gets my nod every day of the week.  Throw in a prospect with the potential to rake and a couple extra arms?  I'll take it.

"Wilson found about the trade through the media, not directly from the Pirates."

Classy. Very classy.

In the long run Jack is fortune to finally be free of the low class trash that owns and runs the PBC IMO.

I'm more of a Pirates fan today, then I was yesterday thanks to this trade...I am hoping that we trade Freddy, trade grabow and Capps for prospects and get this thing turned around for 2012! We are not building for 2010, so who cares if we lose 110 next year, as long as progress is made than 2012 could be a gret year IF we sign SANO.

McCuthen - CF

Milledge - LF

Tabata - RF

LaRoche - 3B

Sano - SS

Free Agent - 2B

Jones - 1B

Clement - C

Rotation

Duke, Morton, Ohlendorf.....

Over-priced spare parts for young talent?  Yes please!

Ding Dong Snell is gone!

Woo Hoo!

Jack - Can't say enough how enjoyable you were to watch, what zip you brought to the field! I wish you, Julie and your beautiful kids the very best.

Now I'll sit back and watch everyone complain.

No way in hell you can fault NH for this one...,Jack was getting hurt tying his shoes....We got there no 1 prospect and got rid of mini mike Tyson who needed a new start.....I am excited

BAB,

Clements knees are shot.

Of the 92 games he has played in AAA this season, 70 of them were as a DH, 16 were behind the plate, and only 6 were at 1B.

To say he is a firstbaseman now is a pretty far stretch.

Maybe Neal forgot he nows works in the National League where the DH is only used in Interleague Play?

The reason Clement is not in the top 10 prospects, and likely not their number 1 or 2 prospect is because he had too many at bats in the majors last year to qualify.

I love this trade. Hate to see Jack go since he has been my favority Pirate for since he began playing here. Just glad we could get what appears to be plenty of value. I doubt we'll see Cedeno next year unless he shows that he is capable.

RE: "1:26 p.m.: Wilson found about the trade through the media, not directly from the Pirates."

This burns me up the most.  He deserved better.

@ NuHos:

NH is going to try to cure Clement's knees like they're going to cure Cedeno of his batting woes.

        GIVE JACK A PLANE TICKET!

        RONNY IS IN FREE!

        IAN IS GOING ON A MAGIC CARPET RIDE TO THE GREAT NORTHWEST!

        JEFF WILL HAVE HIS JUKE!

*cough* Clement may be trade fodder to use later *cough*

Clement will not play C for the Bucs.  He'll play 1B.  

Its not a salary dump when you have to include cash in the deal.  If they were dumping salary, they could have not included cash and the Mariners would have kept Clement.

The optimism on this blog regarding this trade amazes me.  We traded a solid starting shortstop (who sounds like he wanted to stay here) and a starting pitcher that has had success at the major league level for a shortstop hitting .176, a player without a position that has bad knees, and three no name pitchers (Wow, Seattle's 24th, 27th and 28th rated prospects....WOOHOO!!!!).

On top of that I'm blown away by the fact that someone can mention this is a good trade because Wilson and Snell are overpaid.  HUH?  After Sanchez and Capps are gone (we all know it's coming) the Pirates will have the lowest payroll in baseball next year.  Overpaying one or two players is not going to make or break this team.  Payroll shouldn't be an issue for this team AT ALL right now.  Fielding a competitive team should be the only concern.

When hearing from the Pirates notice how the focus is never on this year, we always hear how "we don't want a .500 team, we want a championship team."  By saying this they never need to show progress becuase they're always "building for the future."  Um, going from a .400 winning percentage to a .600 winning percentage in one year rarely happens.  You have to show progress over a number of years.....

I have to laugh when I read posts listing a starting line up for 2011 or 2012 that has all of these prospects that are going to make us a competitive team.   We heard the same thing back in 2005 about how the Pirates 2008 Pirates were going to be competitive.  

And in 2012 when we're in our 20th losing season Huntington will be fired, a new GM will be brought on board and we'll hear how different things will be if we just wait until 2016.

And in 2016 when we're in our 24th losing season the GM will be fired, a new GM will be brought on board and we'll hear how different things will be if we just wait until 2020.

And in 2020 when we're in our 28th losing season the GM will be fired, a new GM will be brought on board and we'll hear how different things will be if we just wait until 2024.

Wash, Rinse, Repeat!

As long as there's no salary cap and Nutting owns this team the future will NEVER be now!!!!!!

"Adcock was rated Mariners 24th best prospect, Pribanic #27 and Lorin #28."

Hard to say how accurate these ratings are at this point in time. The ratings are usually done before the season starts. Pribanic & Lorin had little professional experience at the beginning of the year. In addition, players in rookie or A ball are seldom rated highly because they are so far away. This last would also apply to Adcock.

I have to wonder about how smart some of these posters are, raving about 2012.

Actually, I don't.

Clement is almost certainly going to AAA to learn how to play 1B. If he doesn't pan out at least we took a shot with someone who can hit. We'll see how it turns out but I am really happy today.

Loved Jack but he is very close to being one of those "injured  more oft than not" type players.

I hope Snell does well. And when he does, don't blame this FO--sometimes people just need a different start.

I see some upside in all of the players we got back. I think Cedeno falls under the "new scenary scenario" and will do well. Clement__we will see. I think you will LORIN as the key piece in this deal...wait and see.

To the FO:  Have a little class in dealing your players away--you are doing the right thing the wrong way.

Freddy is not in the starting lineup again today

Is he still hurt or is he looking for an apartment in Frisco?

Next years option is getting dicey for him, I think

Loved Jack but he is very close to being one of those "injured  more oft than not" type players.

I hope Snell does well. And when he does, don't blame this FO--sometimes people just need a different start.

I see some upside in all of the players we got back. I think Cedeno falls under the "new scenary scenario" and will do well. Clement__we will see. I think you will LORIN as the key piece in this deal...wait and see.

To the FO:  Have a little class in dealing your players away--you are doing the right thing the wrong way.

Never a dull moment with Huntington and co.  Should have seen this coming at least by the time of the McLouth trade they had already decided that this club was not competing this year; so the housecleaning continues.  Don't know why so many are surprised and shocked, though -- it's pretty much what they promised they'd be doing from the time they moved in.  

You can debate the merits of the individual players and personally and try to figure out "who won" until the cows come home.  

My first guess is that the MLB won't suffer all that much more and the organization got a little better.  

Cedeno is a stopgap and will probably treated to some boobirding (!?!) just for not being Wilson when the team gets home, unless he really really goes on a tear.  Clement and two of the pitchers look to have a little upside.

Snell is the wildcard.  Wilson has a few good years left, but if Snell's head is on straight at last, we'll be regretting this.  If he remains the Ian we know, we skinned 'em.  

HA HA HA HA HA HA!  

At least the few Pirate fans left have something to look forward to.  Only need to lose 25 more games this season and the record for the most consecutive losing season in any major sports will belong to the Pirates!

In all honesty, why do people still believe anything management says they are doing.  Maybe the reason our minors are so depleted is because they have to constantly fill spots at the majors levels because they continue to get rid of the one or two good players we have every season.  How bout they spend some money to building a winning team at the major league level and then when that's solid work on building their minors.  When are we going to see results of this rebuilding they keep telling us?  The curve have all of 41 wins this season.  If people would stop giving these greedy bastards money to go watch fireworks instead of a baseball game, then just maybe the owners will put more effort into building a winning team instead of trying to figure out what band they can get suckers to go see.

i.e. Wilson finds out through media...

I'm sorry, but that really does show a complete lack of respect for an employee. Statement above said that he's got millions of reasons not to be too upset...when you work for the same company for a while, you would think you earn respect & not just a paycheck. Very disappointed in the FO in that regard.

StevePegues--quoting Stalin is a good way to get no soup (no pun intended for the history buffs) :)

NuHo

He's not a catcher. We can all agree on that. And Neal didn't forget anything. He acquired the right to use the DH from Tampa Bay in exchange for the right to hold three Roberto Clemente-themed giveaway days per year and two Zambelli brothers.  Keith Law loves the deal for Tampa Bay, and points out that Clemente-themed giveaways have an above-average fans showing up -to-loyalty ratio, calculated by the number of fans who arrive for the promotion as compared to the actual number of loyal fans.  Also, Rob Neyer may or may not have twittered himself after hearing of the deal.

Everyone calm down about Clement, the week isn't over yet.  Maybe he gets included in a deal with Sanchez or something, who knows?  

Man you all wanna jump down throats like we just dumped Cal Ripken Jr and Mike Mussina.  Relax people, Wilson has contributed nothing offensively, nothing from the mound, nothing on the basepaths.  Yes he has a fantastic glove and a great attitude but everyone is seriously overvaluing him. And Snell apparently didn't want to be a man about his career so he was giving us nothing either.

We got 5 players back.  Geez some of you are never satisfied.

Still amazed that so many people care more about the front office finances than about the baseball talent in the organization.  We are miles ahead of where we were in April because we finally, finally have legitimate talent in the minor-league system.    

This burns me up the most.  He deserved better.

=======================================================

Personally I love it that this mgt. team basically hates the major leaguers that they inherited.  I think they would've liked to see them succeed, but after Neal went through the trouble to sign Ian, he has been awful and a head-case.  Jack is a good player who has become a club-house big mouth.  Neal has made it public that these guys are well below the standard of what's needed for winning baseball, and I'm glad.    

If Jack Wilson wants to be GM, tell him to retire and take up a FO job.  Until then, play the game and let the FO take care of the other things.  You want to talk amongst the players, that's fine, but publicly, it's NO COMMENT.

Re: Posts discussing the "Overpaid" tag applied to Wilson and Snell

Yes, they're overpaid becase at the time of the contract negotiations both players were over-valued  No one is arguing the fact that this payroll is low (and stands the chance to be lower by Friday).  We are all simply stating that Wilson and Snell aren't worth what they're making.

I have been quiet for a long time, mostly because I got sick of the negativity, and more importantly, the conspiracy theorists that haunt our hallow sanitarium.

I have a challenge that I think next to none of the detractors of the FO, except for NuHo, are truly up to. How would you fix the Pirates?

Here are your guidelines:

1. STAY IN THE BLACK. Absolutely under no circumstances can you lose money. In the Pirates' case, you have about $60 million in revenues to work with. Spend no more, make no suppositions that "more fans will come if we will."

2. Do NOT undervalue players. If you insist on building a roster of free agent stars and prospects, use their current values and the current value of what your prospect would be paid if he projects into what you think he'd be. If you think Prospect X will hit .330/45/150 when he's due to be a free agent, factor in the cost of keeping him past that. No hometown discounts.

3. Show how your model could be sustained for more than one to two years, and spell out your injury contingencies if your high-priced stars get hurt.

The point being, we're all fans, not experts. There are lots of people saying the current model is all wrong, while a few agree with it or at least are intrigued since it is something different than what we've done for 17 years. I have not read one comment by an FO-conspiracy theorist that could meet all three of my criteria for a successful franchise.

Pirates trade MadLib

Today the Pittsburgh Pirates traded ________ ________, their starting ________ to the ________ ________ for _____ prospects including ________ ________ who was rated the ________ _________'s top rated prospect back in 19/20 __.

THIS IS A GREAT TRADE! Jack has a decent glove, yippee! He hits like rafeal belliard.  Just because some of you have a personal affinity for the guy means nothing in baseball.  I AM happy he is gone and WILL NOT miss him at all.

FIRESALE ON ALL REMAINING PITTSBURGH PIRATES! WE'RE SLASHING PRICES AND OFFERS ON ALL REMAINING 09-10 PLAYERS! NO OFFER WILL BE REFUSED! TRADE IN YOUR USELESS PROSPECTS AND PARTICIPATE IN THE CASH FOR JUNKERS PROGRAM NOW BY TRADING YOUR JUNKERS FOR OUR UTILITY INFIELDERS.

Jeez...did anybody tell Nutting that these deals aren't for the player's CARDS, but for the players themselves?  

Good points Almartin!!  Honestly, .400 is better than I expect next year.  That would be 97 losses.  This team is a shoe-in to lose 100.  So when they aren't in first place on June 1, they'll start trading all of their good players again.  It's a very painful cycle.

Snell scares the heck out of me.  I can't believe that they couldn't make it work.  This guy will be an all-star in the next few years, write it down.   Wilson wasn't going to stay, so I look at it as Snell for all of the prospects.  Once they threw away this year with the McLouth trade, while they were still in contention, Wilson was just a question of time.  

Dejan- any possibility that the Bucs have a payroll at year end that is actually less than the amount of revenue sharing money they received?  

"Our scouts have consistently projected Clement to be an everyday Major League contributor with the power to hit 20-plus home runs," said Huntington."

Did anyone tell you that his knees are shot and that he has been primarily a DH in AAA this season???

Or that we rarely is the DH in the National League???

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

What a disagrace that this organization did not notfy Jack themselves, he deserved better for what he gave this team.

Good luck Jack, I hope you win, you were one of the few good things about this pathetic team. You were a pleasure to watch play defense.

Phillies just got Lee from the Indians and Francisco for 4 players, one is the shortstop

Dejan just reported that the Bucs are covering both Wilson's and Snell's salaries this year...that does not sound like salary dumps to me.

Does this mean that Freddy is staying?

Almartin-

If you believe that Huntington is like Littlefield because they both make trades, there is literally no help for you.  

MLBtraderumors reports the PBC will pay all of JWs and Snells salary for the rest of the year

Hey Scott421!

Real cool posts buddy!

Hope you keep waiting for 2012....and beyond.

It's people like you that have helped this swindle continue on & on.

If you REALLY think that this shuffle will stop by 2012, I feel for you.

Otherwise...Get back in the Call Center and "try" to sell some tickets for the rest of the season.

Great posts .....Very comical!

MLBtraderumors reports the PBC will pay all of JWs and Snells salary for the rest of the year

when you work for the same company for a while, you would think you earn respect & not just a paycheck. Very disappointed in the FO in that regard.

========================================================

Unless that mgt. had no ties to you (since this is their 2nd season) as it pertains to development, current performance, or contract.  Then you publicly criticize things that are done by them.  And they think that you're over paid for the services you provide.

IMO, this mgt. team owes Jack nothing more than a "thanks" as his plane is taking off for Seattle.

From mlbtraderumors: "1:24pm: Kovacevic reports that the Pirates will pay nearly all of the money owed to Wilson and Snell this year. The Mariners will pay each player $400k." - Check DK's twitter page too.

This clearly can't be, however, b/c Bob would not allow it b/c his profits would drop.  Right? No?

Good luck Jack & Ian! I hope this works out well for both of them.

It probably won't work out well for the Pirates, but that's not anything different from what we've been experiencing.

So we traded away a tempermental but talented SP and a great glove at SS for a DH with bad knees and another SS who makes Jack Wilson look like Honus Wagner with the bat in comparison.  I forgot about the 3 dispensable A pitchers we got in return. Once again it's quantity over quality in another salary dump trade.

Great baseball trade Neil!  And lest there be any doubt, the Pirates FO is to blame for the Snell situation and not returning Wilson's phone calls about a new contract.  I've never been a big fan of Jack because of his limited bat, but we're stockpiling shortstops that make Jack look Ruthian at the plate.  And Snell should've been back up and starting for the PBC right now.  That situation is all on the front office.  

Screw NH and Nutbag.  I can't wait to see what has-been "prospects" we get for Freddy now.  Maybe we can pare that payroll down to $15 million for next season and shoot for 110 losses!

"Daq baz____________________________________

"These people need to hear it not just in writing, but also verbally."

Go right ahead.Since you are so sure everyone agrees with your thinking I'm sure they will line up right behind you.

Maybe the M's think Snell won't get worse when he switchs to the AL bc he won't have any pitchers hitting off him....

                                                                                                   I am willing to bet Jack will show more class than " the best management team in sports" on his way out the door. ...........Does anyone really not see now , why Neal was demoted in Cleveland?......This front office is just as inept as those that preceded it.                                          

"Did anyone tell you that his knees are shot and that he has been primarily a DH in AAA this season???"

Did anyone tell you that it doesn't mean his knees will be shot forever?  That he underwent arthroscopic knee surgery last year?

Ever hear of Jason Bay?

All this payroll talk cracks me up. The lower we go now and free up way-over-valued options, the more we can put towards our true stars without going way over on salary. This will let us build up to keeping our better players...

@cubreporter51: I agree 100% but we need to add one more rule--any FA we want must WANT to come to the club.

I do not understand the blind support the majority of this town has for the owners of the pirates or the pirate organization.  

Here's something for you to digest - if we continue to field an AAA team in the majors, we'll continue to have a record like an  AAA team in the majors.  For anyone that disagrees - please note that the job of an AAA team is to develop players -  not for themselves, but for another team.

Yet, if you judge by attendance - it does not look like this team has any issues.  The goal here is to win.  But why would the owners do anything different?  The attendance will be the same whether they pay out 50 million or 500 million.  Why not pay less if the same amount of money is rolling in.  

The buccos have not been above .500 since I was 12 years old, yet this town follows them blindly.  I'm sick of it.  We are not getting any better with these trades, and if we did, all that will happen is another salary dump.  

I love the bucs, but the days of blind support are over.  Stand up for what you believe in - let every empty seat be a sign that we want a contending team - even on fireworks night - even on bobblehead night.  If you are shelling out  any money to this team - a team that has not improved in 17 years, you deserve what you get.

I don't think we should really be concerned about what Snell "might" do in the future.  Let's face it -- he wasn't ever going to perform up to his potential with the Pirates.  He needed a change of scenery.  He may well end up an All-Star in Seattle, but he wasn't going to be one in Pittsburgh -- for whatever reasons, his head wasn't ever going to let that happen here.

If we think this year is bad, wait till next years trading deadline when Doumit, Maholm and Duke go

The deconstruction of the PBC continues, but As The Pirates Turn, the soap opera of all soap operas has been picked up by the network for another season,

The Seattle GM was one of the folks that helped build the Brewers, he's got a track record, our Opie does not, just a guess, who won this deal??

Good dignity by FO to let JW find out he's traded through the media, also good dignity by FO to not return JWs agents call, oh, I know NH forgot to charge his cell phone batteries

Seriously, if I ever see one ounce of class coming from this organization, I swear I will stop complaining about the way they do business, but I'm not gonna hold my breath

Like I said on another post (figure it'll take to long to go back & copy/paste):

I don't know where Clement fits in to the grand scheme of things. He's a DH (not available in the NL), 1B (occupied by Pearce/Jones) & C (occupied by Doumit).

Someone earlier brought up that he could be part of another trade, and that's entirely possible. If not, he'll probably languish in Indy to use if/when Diaz is traded.

Also, as I said before, best of luck to Jack & Ian. I had to break the news to my 8 year-old son, & he got very quiet over the phone when I told him. But he still wants to go to the game on Sunday, so at least he's still enjoying the experience.

I love the people who think that by not going to games we can help the team get better...

I haven't read any of the other posts ... Here's my take on the trade:

If anything was dumped, it was Snell, and I'm probably not too alone in saying "good riddance" on that prong of the deal. With Jack, yeah, great shortstop, maybe the best in the NL, still, but getting older and NOT part of the future, unfortunately.

For Jack and Snell, we got a serviceable major league shortstop (albeit stop-gap, and even at that, not too many good-hitting shortstops in the bigs ... I do have hopes that the Bucs have their own version of Hanley Ramirez someday!) in Cedeno, a guy that can ACTUALLY HIT in Clement ... and three solid pitching prospects to add to our growing stable in the minors.

I don't see how it could be anything but a great deal for us.

It's people like you that have helped this swindle continue on & on.

========================================================

Daquido....

Could you please tell the rest of the group here what you've done to try and stop this "swindle" and how we can help tooo?

Since people "like us" have helped it continue, we have no idea how not to.......

What I do not understand is why everyone cares about a winning season?  its an arbitrary number that means absolutely nothing.  No awards for mediocrity.  Who cares if we have 17 straight losing seasons, or if we had one winning season in '99 wedged in between 30 losing seasons.  It doesn't make a difference.  but people love numbers and statistics so they latch onto something that sounds sensational.  I could care less if we have 17 winning seasons vs. 17 losing seasons if neither of them put us in the playoffs.  

Wow, Snell's the front office's fault?  How about Ian being held accountable for his tantrum?

This isn't a horrible trade, but I don't see how anyone can be optimistic about this team.  Seriously, our good young players will be up for free agency by the team is competitive.  We'll lose some and keep some.  Then we'lll lose and trade the ones we signed for more young players.  It's a vicious cycle.

Jack showed a ton of class after the McLouth trade (eye roll).  I guess NH should have asked for his opinion before he signed off on sending McLouth packing.  

Let's also keep in mind that Dejan and Jack are friends, or at least Dejan's slanted coverage makes it appear that way.  It is difficult to take seriously any Dejan coverage of Jack.  If Wilson found out through the media it was probably from Dejan and before the FO had a chance to notify him.    

I'm amazed at how many comments there are here.  It took me over an hour to get in.  And, because there have already been so many opinions written with which I agree, I will be brief.

Jack, good luck.  I have so enjoyed watching you play and have appreciated all of your words, both written and in interviews.  You always spoke the truth as you saw it, at least IMO.  No cliches.  Just what you thought at the moment.

Ian, I hope this works out for you.  Peace is the goal, for you and for us.

mazfromiowa----I'm well aware that many that post in this blog are "pro-Nutting."

I speak for the one's that are not.

As for me, I do take action (legally) as time permits me to do so.

I just want to point out to you that (as mentioned) though many in here are loving this "plan" (that has been done at least 5 times in the past 17 years....Take a walk around the 'Burgh and see how many agree with it and/or how many even care anymore.

It's the saddest state of affairs I've seen in my long history with the Pirates.

You keep going along with it.....I'll keep complaining.

It's my right, as the swindle goes on & on & on & on....

To think that we are any worse than any other major league team who hasn't won a championship since 1979 is ridiculous.  Losing seasons mean nothing, and consecutive losing seasons mean even less.  Huntington is building a system to give us the best chance of success (and success means championships) down the road.  Last years incarnation of the Pirates were never going to get it done. Lets give him 5 years and if he fails then we roast him.  but to think that anything that he has done this year,or today, should be evaluated today is irrational.  It would be like calling out Michaelangelo when he just started chiseling from the marble that would become David.  Slow down and breathe.  

Am I missing something here. We traded a downside of his career light hitting SS and a headcase for a very good prospect in Clemente that is ML ready and one definate high side pitcher and another that is pitching lights out in his first year of professional A ball and somehow people are upset. Jacks defense wasn't going to be the same 3 years from now and no amount of runs he saves for us with his defense in the next 2 years would make us contenders. Our minor league system is infinately better then two years ago and we actually will have 8-9 pitchers competing for rotation spots next year instead of trying to piece together a 4 and 5 starter.

Hey DB

Hey Scott421!

Real cool posts buddy!

Hope you keep waiting for 2012....and beyond.

It's people like you that have helped this swindle continue on & on.

If you REALLY think that this shuffle will stop by 2012, I feel for you.

Otherwise...Get back in the Call Center and "try" to sell some tickets for the rest of the season.

Great posts .....Very comical!

____________________________________________________________

Thanks for offering nothing to the discussion on this board,  I look forward to skipping past your future posts.

I love the people who think that by reducing the payroll and talent further and further will somehow make this team better.

If the fans boycott then the owners will get MORE  revenue sharing money.That's pretty much a fact.As for myself I will always be a fan(sadly enough it seems) and will keep buying hats and shirts etc.After almost 50 years I ain't going anywhere.

Why Didn't I get to see Roberto? ....It wouldn't do any good to tell you what to do about this swindle, because you've made it crystal clear through your posts that you agree with it.

Don't worry....You're in the minority....But the minority rules with the Pirates.

Dan1283 - the only thing I'd like to add to your post is an "s" to the word tantrum.

Ian's Tantrums. plural. very very plural.

Anyone who thinks that Ian was going to be back at PNC pitching like he did in Indy has not really come to know Ian.

I feel like an idiot pointing it out, but the quantity of prospects, in total, may have big rewards down the line.  

Today, the cubs and brewers would love to be buyers but they have no currency.  

If the day ever comes (i know, i know) when the pirates are in a position to buy at the trade deadline (i said i know), we've got a bushel of other teams' prospects (including a large number of large pitchers) that we can move for a prince fielder (fathead) or roy halladay-type.  

Will miss watching Jack make plays, will not miss his light bat.  Snell? Meh.

DK just twitted pirates will pay $3,308,702.19 in trade -- basically Snell's remaining 09 salary.  GREAT DEAL.

Bonilla rounds second...heres the throw to third.....circa: Red vs Pirates NLCS...smooth move!!!

Funny thing is that FSN is re-running all these 'Spotlight" shows to take the place of the greatly missed Sportsbeat...well there is nothing better then watching their reviews of the Pirates 90-92 seasons.....how we desire those rosters!!!!!!!  But since the team was blown up in 1993, the first time, what do we have to show for it????  A 10 inning no-hitter? An epic clawback against the Astros?  A brief June stint in one year where the team was above .500?  There isnt anything, so why not blow this thing up at the risk of once and for all losing the decreasing fan base?

You have to give the front office an A for effort, they have nothing to lose, but the 9,000 fans that show up.  All of this is a by product of idiot ownership and slightly retarded general managers.  

It is laughable if you look back at ALL the trades since the team was blown up the first time, there might be 5-6 good trades that result in average players:

1. Smiley for Neagle and Cummings

2. Neagle for Schmidt and Wright

3. Christianson for Wilson

4. Suppan for Sanchez

5. Rincon for Giles

6. Giles for Bay, Perez, and a throw in

More often then not, all trades failed....thank you Dave Littlefield, loved watching that guy walk around spring training like a human bobble head.......so just give these guys a chance.  Stock pile the minors through trades and quality drafts, throw in a couple Latins and a few unexpected guys, and then might have something....might!

Just keep your fingers crossed or Pirates attendance will resemble Florida State League games.......

There are plenty of openings at Citi Field (from what I've seen on TV) and at the new Yankees' stadium for those of you who want to watch teams that spend compulsively to try to buy a championship. Pittsburgh has always prided itself on its blue-collar work ethic, and its love of team that earn their way to the top. If your spirit is broken by a trade or 17 years of setbacks, you're probably not a true Pittsburgher. Fairweather fans need not apply to be a true Bucs fan.

This model (trading away good players at top value) has been proven successful in Florida, Cleveland and Oakland.

Let's go to Vegas and play a little craps. You bet your $100 in chips on one spot, and I'll spread mine out over 5 different spots with varying odds and chances at success. We'll play 5 or 10 rounds that way then we'll count the chips, or the money that you owe the casino, whatever the case may be.

Let's see... Seattle traded away their future for two of the contributors to our losing present.

We got five players for one guy who has peaked, and one emo posterboy who may or may not ever pitch lights out again (see Perez, O) but would likely never do it here. Even if they don't pan out, that's far more return than I would have ever expected and far more than the return for Dr. Strangebat.

And you're complaining? This looks like robbery, not just selling high. Whatever cash they threw in is squat compared to the return.

Sentiment is nice, but it hasn't won any games. Sure looks like NH is determined to clean house of everybody who has Dave Littlefield's stamp on them. For better or worse, this is becoming the team that Neal built. The balance will soon tilt towards a roster and minors that are all his. Then it will be justifiable to judge his results.

Just another thought from a clueless being, but..

Clement is out of minor league options after this year.  One of my concerns with Opies trades is that alot of what he picks up either has to sink or swim, Milledge, Moss, Hanson, LaRoche now Clement will not get another chance to develop in the minors, next year they either stay with the ML club or get lost via waivers.  Not a heck of a lot of flexibility.

The FO states that they can fix newly acquired players problems, well, why can't we fix our own players problems?

Exactly what is our track record regarding developing talent??

Let's see, Neal 's take this month.....2 shortstops that he is going to teach to hit...lol...a DH...What the#%@&????....and three pitchers rated in the high 20's......oh and he is sending 3.3 million dollars to Seattle..hahahahahaha....Teams gotta be fallin over themselves to deal with this Nutjob squad.

Yesterday someone noted that PBC's minor league pitchers are being coached to include change-ups (and probably other off-speed stuff) in their repertoires to better prepare them for the bigs.  I also recall both JR and Huntington stressing that the development of minor-league talent and benchmark evaluation of that talent was going to be a very high priority throughout the system.  Finally, I note that the young stud pitcher Owens, he of the 10-1 record and the 1.70 ERA, is being given shorter outings to protect him from arm trouble.  

Could the PBC be emulating the Braves of the early 80s?    

Just another thought from a clueless being, but..

Clement is out of minor league options after this year.  One of my concerns with Opies trades is that alot of what he picks up either has to sink or swim, Milledge, Moss, Hanson, LaRoche now Clement will not get another chance to develop in the minors, next year they either stay with the ML club or get lost via waivers.  Not a heck of a lot of flexibility.

The FO states that they can fix newly acquired players problems, well, why can't we fix our own players problems?

Exactly what is our track record regarding developing talent??

Seattle traded away their future????????????????

Yeah....Future fodder.

@ Ron Burgandy: I'm astounded by your comments on DK.  Never, for once, have I read ANYTHING and I mean ANYTHING in the PG, be it Pirates, Penguins, otherwise, written by DK that shows even a modicum of bias.  How DARE you question DK's credibility.

And, on another note, it doesn't matter if DK was the media member to break the news to Wilson or not.  The fact that a media member knew before Wilson goes toward the lack-of-class argument.

And I'm sorry, but it is OBVIOUS they are tearing this thing to the ground and rebuilding from the foundation on up. Snell and Wilson are not part of that plan and were not very productive anyways.  Snell is a sad story but it is entirely his own fault that he is not the pitcher he was on the way to being and no one else's.

This is a good baseball trade.  This is a baseball move geared toward a club that is rebuilding.  This doesn't even compare to the past regimes.  This is not re-habbing or re-modeling ike we used to do, this is true re-building.  And if you're not willing to give it a chance then I'm not surprised, because this always has been and always will be a great bandwagon town.  Do us real fans all a favor and jump back on after the team breaks .500 again, and I don't care how long that takes.

@NH

I love the people that believe that, outside of Bay, the Pirates have given up players with lots of talent......

Because those players sure as hell gave us so many wins when they were together.....

I suspect Dave Littlefield is using Daquido_bazzini as his alias ;-)

Cedano sucks, Clements is a never-will-be and as for the three pitchers, none were ranked in Baseball America’s Top 10 prospects prior to the season and, considering they are all in Single-A, would appear to be a little ways away from contributing.  They are all irrelevant in 2009.

The Seattle newspaper has an interesting article on this most recent trade:  www.seattlepi.com/.../mlbnews.asp

I wonder if Jack badmouthed the Seattle front office for not bringing is bff Freddy?  

  Jack Wilson was not overpaid.  As his batting average declined - through injury, more than age - his defense became more superb.  When Bill Mazeroski (I still have my Pirates-Bat-Boy-for-a-Day Photo taken with him) was proposed for the Hall of Fame, Ted Williams opposed him - because his Lifetime Batting Average was only .260.  Nonetheless, he was voted in because "...His glove saved as many runs as other players' bats generated.!"  

  The same is true of Jack.  (How fickle we are...!)  With or without Freddie, he should have retired as a Pirate!  He belonged in Pittsburgh, like a primanti Sandwich on the Duquesne Incline!

  Fare well, Jack - you're off the gibbet now - I hope better Seattle is more appreciative!

By the way, why is no one criticizing Seattle?  THIS is the trade that's gonna spring them over Texas and Los Angeles??? Really????

@Demery

I just listened to Tim Kurkijan.  Yes he said this deal favors SEA because they got 2 experienced players.  But he also mentioned that Pittsburgh got 5 young players which is never a bad thing.  

I guess you can read it how you want depending on whether your for this FO or against it.  

But man I hate when people only tell part of the story.  

Greetings All.

Trying to catch up in here today, but time doesn't permit reading all posts. Please forgive me if my opinions have already been discussed.

1. I wish jack nothing but the best. He played here during our darkest days and was an example for all. Yes he shot his mouth off some the last couple years, but 9 seasons with this team affords him that right. Good Luck Jack.

2. Maybe one of our resident "stat geeks" can correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Seatle's minor league system rated just below ours? I don't put much weight on individual player rankings in their org, but damn.... Clement, Cedeno, #24, 25, and 27 overall for Wilson, Snell, AND money??

3. It's been said that Clement was being blocked in Seatle. Can anyone tell me who was blocking him at 1B for them? Seriously, anyone????

4. I like Ronny Cedeno. He's fun to watch. But the guy is barely batting .200. How sad that that now is our best option at SS.

It's hard for me to get excited about this, but some of that is because I really liked Jack. But I'll tow the line, for now, and try to stay positive. It's hard to believe this was Seatle's "best bolt" offer.

Sorry, I just threw up a little..........

Comparing Jack to Maz is a bit much.  1960 aside, Mazeroski was a key player on some really excellent baseball teams in baseball's golden era.  For many years he exemplified fielding excellence not just for the Pirates but for all of MLB.  

Jack is a very good glove, still has a fine arm but is losing range rapidly and getting hurt more often.  Our return for him and Snell is at least reasonable, and may be outstanding.  

I thought the world of Jack, but moving on in this era of baseball is commonplace.

But Neal took over this organization, the major league product could not win, not with one player added or two players added, not with 5 players added.

The Organization was like an  grand old run down mansion, that the only possibilities for it was to gut it or tear it down.

The Pirates decided to gut it, practically every thing that was there two years ago is gone or will be gone.

The entire system will be new from top to bottom.

After that construction is done we will see if the run down grand old mansion is now a new grand mansion again.

Most of the talking heads are saying the Pirates took advantage of seattle...Also, keep posting...I can really separate the true fans now as opposed to those that think they know baseball...wow...what a gap!

The Pirates have done a good job for once and I'm as big a pessimist as their is in the Burgh.

C-Ryan Doumit, Tony Sanchez, Robinson Diaz, Jason Jaramillo. A ton of depth here.

1B-Jones, Clement. Jones has a chance at ROY!!! Clement gets better on defense he has a great bat.

2B-I'm hoping Shelby Ford is just having a off year or Freddy Sanchez brings back a nice prospect here. Delwyn young is nice at the plate.

SS-Please Miguel Sano! Ronny Cedeno and Argenis Diaz both holding this spot down until the Bucs develop one of their young prospects or sign Sano.

3B-Pedro Alverez, Andy Laroche, Neil Walker. Pedro is the future but Laroche is a nice trade chip when Alverez is ready.

LF-Gorky Hernandez, Brandon Moss, Robbie Grossman. You need two CF in PNC Park and we have plenty of power in the lineup.

CF-Andrew McCutchen, Delwyn Young. McCutchen is a star!

RF-Jose Tabata, Garrett Jones, Brandon Moss. Tabata is almost ready to join McCutchen in the majors.

Pitching will be the key but we have a lot of guys to choose from. Paul Maholm, Zach Duke, Tom Gorzellany, Charlie Morton, Ross Oehlendorf, Brad Lincoln, Bryan Morris, Rudy Owens etc............

For the 1st time in a long time I have a little hope.