Morning links: Best deal available?

I posted this in the other thread but I'll throw it out there again at the start of this one....

IMO I don't see the harm with in Pearce getting a good look at first base. Realistically, Pedro is going to be our first baseman, probably 2011 at the latest. Worst case is Pearce tanks and this is his last opportunity with the Pirates. Best case would be Pearce getting some good results this season and maybe next year the Pirates can flip him like Nyjer Morgan. I know Pearce has disappointed in his time in the bigs but he has some decent stats in the minors. I'd like to see what we got with him.

So in the 'blind squirrel finds a nut' department, I called the Argenis Diaz acquisition in my blog article just about a month ago.  

joerozsa.com/.../following-the-cleveland-model-is-that-such-a-good-idea-pirates

Of course, I had him coming here for Grabow, but still...  I'll take credit for laying the foundation for this deal.  :)

Pearce will have a nice test in his first game back--not like Danny Haren is a tough pitcher or anything. Though with this team...who knows ;-)

I'm okay with this, as long as Garrett gets 1-2 days a week playing 1st .  If it is a 7 game week, that would mean for the 2 of spots and 1st-

Garrett - 6 to 7

Pearce - 5

Young - 5

Moss - 4 to 5

That is workable for now.  I still want to see Milledge up.

As for the other deal, it sounds like we made the right call.  We don't need more stop gap players who are AAA to AAAA players, and NH sounded like we weren't going to get a SS. This is the biggest area of weakness in our upper system, and we patched that hole with someone we were going to lose anyway.  

Between that and the win and 5 dingers, a pretty food day to be a Bucco fan!

I like the deal for LaRoche in the Pirates actually got prospects instead of just letting Adam walk at the end of the season. Pearce hasn't really been given much of an opportunity at first base. I think the Bucs have enough lefty bats in the lineup and Pearce  (although no LaRoche defensively) is probably more adequate at 1B than in the OF. Only time will tell......

From previous thread -

@pghfaninstl -

You're right, our road record is terrible.  But I seem to remember having success the last two years against the NL West.  I could totally be wrong.  4-3 on the swing would be great, as you say.

@ Baywatch -

I'd totally be in for a trip to SF to hang with Daryle.  That is a fantastic idea.

Only thing about the west coast swing for those of us out here is that the games are blacked out.  Radio works for me, though; at least I can get Bucco announcers all the time.

I'd love to formulate my own opinion over whether Huntington made the right deal or not, but that's not really feasible without knowledge of the alleged return from the other prospective deal, and that's not something we're ever going to get.

That said, the mystique of the "other deal" is going to haunt me like Kip Wells-for-Ryan Howard until the club fully turns around.

All in all, though, it's good that they moved Adam LaRoche, and it's good that they added additional minor league depth. Part of me thinks that one of the reasons the club took on a shortstop prospect with "plus plus" defense and no bat is that they don't intend to bring Wilson back at all next year. That they got a solid glove man, put him a level above where his last team had him, and that he's now the most ML-ready shortstop in their system says that he's the temporary fill-in for Wilson until they're able to develop or acquire a better overall shortstop to take over long-term.

@Joe Bucco

I just read your piece, how do you feel, You didnt see G JONES on the radar, who did right...Do you think Jack and Freddy will go???7.5 gb , am I wrong to think with this new lineup that anything can happen??

@BAYWATCH, Las Vegas Pirate Fan

Would love some company to AT&T PARK, I am so isolated when I go the games, Anytime let me know...

@DK

How did the news start to spread before the game yesterday?  I heard you on Stan and Guy on Tuesday saying the you generally did not expect anything with LaRoche to happen, yet there you are breaking the story before anyone else the next day.  It seems that maybe someone came to you with the information first, was that the case?  I noticed lots of national stories crediting you with breaking the news first, so kudos for staying on top of things so much.

@All

I love the options that are developing around the diamond since the rebuilding project began.  Pearce gets a shot at first, and Jones, Moss and Young fight it out in the outfield.  If Pearce doesn't work, they move Jones to first and maybe call up Milledge to join the outfield crowd.  If Doumit needs a rest, they have Jaramillo there, and they also have a few options at trying out new closers if Capps falters.  It's the sign of doing things right, at least to me.

So Dan Haren gives up an average of 4.5 hits per game, along with 1 run every 5 innings, at home this season.  

Other than Daryle, who else is taking the over for these stats in Thursday night's game?

I think I will.

For what it's worth, the "other team" may have been the Chicago White Sox.  Chris Mack was saying on Stan and Guy on Wednesday that a source identified them as a potential destination for LaRoche, and this was before the Red Sox were identified as the trade partner.  He claimed this same source had confirmed the Morgan trade to Washington about an hour and a half before the deal became public.  Stan also pointed out that the White Sox demoted former first-round outfielder Brian Anderson within the last week, and we know how Neal loves his outfielders!  Since the "other team" will likely not be identified anytime soon, who knows...

Also today, I noticed Keith Law is chatting at 1 PM on ESPN's web site today, if anyone is interested.  I'll be keeping an eye open to see if he has anything to say about the two prospects we got in the trade, particularly Diaz as it's unlikely he's scouted Strickland.

Where is the LaRoche interview being conducted? In the clubhouse? Either way, it's some rockin' music they've got going...

I have argued since I started posting on the blog that AdLa was the wrong guy on the wrong team at the wrong time.  So why do I miss him already?  I think it's because he's a class act, a consummate professional and a good guy.  He's the kind of guy you root for to do well.   I wish him all the best, but don't disagree with the deal.  It was starting to sound like we wouldn't get anything for him and there was no way they should have signed him to a long term deal for what he seemed to be looking for.  But I think the criticism of his defense is indefensible.  He made a lot of saves on balls thrown to first by Andy, Jack and Freddy that I don't think most other first basemen make IMO.

But the one constant is that the deal saves the PBC money.  Deals that cost the PBC--Alvarez.  Deals that didn't cost extra dollars or saved money--everything else.  Just something to be mindful of.

Huntington turning down a real major league player because of money???

Nah....That couldn't have happened.....Could it?1

Seems the puppet masters were working feverishly from above....hoping to save every last dime they could....tossing away any thoughts of actually winning.

And the swindle goes on....and on....and on....and on......

Re...possible trade partners for LaRoche.

I operated under the assumption that we would NOT be getting back a first baseman in the LaRoche trade...but a player at a different position. Looking at first basemen around the league...I found 5 teams other than the Giants that might have been looking for someone like LaRoche.

Arizona

Florida

LA Angels

Mets

Oakland

I eliminated the White Sox...they have both Konerko and Thome already there...and no need for a 1B.

 Count me in as one who is hugely disappointed in hearing that Pearce is coming up to be the regular first baseman. What do Moss and Young have to do to get the "shot" that Pearce is getting? Playing every day uninterrupted for a period of time? I hope I am wrong but I think it is OBVIOUS that Pearce is over matched at the major league level. If you are Moss what are you thinking? Every time he does something positive he is either benched or has some clown promoted from the minors hours after he hits a walk off homer! Takes the luster off what was a great day.  

Positive note:  Last week I posted that a reasonable 2nd half goal for the Pirates would be to make up the 4.5 game lead Cincinnati had on them to move out of last place.  This past week 2.5 games were gained on the Reds.  

Negative note: Promoting Pearce instead of Milledge does nothing to further the momentum coming out of today's game.  NH's implied suggestion that Milledge still needs to make some sort of mysterious adjustment (as if a guy batting over .500 or so needs to alter his approach at the plate), like Pearce allegedly has, before they will consider calling him up is laughable.  Stop playing head games with Milledge and call him up now.

With the trade of AdLa, why have we not seen the clubhouse tantrums of JW or someone else whinning about another Pirate player getting traded? They were either prepared for this one, or it has become so commonplace that all the players accept it now. Or maybe they've just learned to keep their mouths shut on management's decisions......

Good morning inmates near and far. I've been wondering if the FO ever tries to get MLB ready talent in these trades. The rumor leads us to believe that they do consider it at times.  I hope Pearce does well, but i too want to see Moss and Jones get their playing time.  Even if they can't pass the Reds for 5th, with all the new players, it can still be an interesting September.

Intrading LaRoche, nutting pockets $3 million, and in return, gives the mugs "more reason to hope."

P.T. Barnum was right - there IS one born every minute.

NH had 8 days to unload LaRoche and the $3 million they owed him.

Well done, Neal.

Lord Vader is pleased - very pleased.

I could care less if they traded LaRoche, but getting an AA and A player in return does not improve the major-league club.

It absolutely amazes me that they can quit on the major-league club in mid-season, year after year, for "prospects", and you guys not only take it, but say "Please, sir, more."

With the Nutting Pirates ...follow the $$$.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<  PROSPECT WATCH  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Today’s Topic: CORNER INFIELDERS (stats thru 7/22/09)

Who’s HOT:   Matt Hague – 1B – Lynchburg : Hitting .326 in his last 10 games (14 hits in 43 ABs)…Matt is from Seattle…almost 24 years old…6’3”…225 lbs…Bats R. Played his college ball at Oklahoma St.

Steve Pearce – 1B/OF – Indy   (8th Round, 2005 Draft)

13 HR 54 RBI .286 ** 77 Games 273 ABs, 37R, 78 H, 46 K, 34 BB, 3 SB,  ** 5  errors

Welcome back to the Pirates ….AGAIN, Steve !!!   ;-)

Neil Walker – 3B – Indy   (1st Round, 2004 Draftt)

8 HR 34 RBI  .229  ** 57 G, 210 ABs,  21R, 48 H, 37K, 20BB, 4 SB ** 10 errors

Pedro Alvarez – 3B – Lynchburg & Altoona   (1st Round, 2008 Draft)

19 HR  68 RBI  .255  ** 89 G, 329 ABs, 54R, 84 H, 98K, 42 BB, 1 SB ** 18 errors

Jamie Romak – 1B – Altoona & Lynchburg   (Laroche for Gonzo/Lillibridge trade)

8 HR 31 RBI  .192  ** 80 G, 271 ABs,  20 R, 52 H, 82K, 24 BB, 1 SB  ** 8 errors

Matt Hague – 1B – Lynchburg   (9th Round, 2008 Draft)

5 HR  37 RBI  .299  ** 81 G, 301 ABs,  35R, 90 H, 45K, 26 BB, 1 SB ** 5 errors

Calvin Anderson – 1B – West Virginia (12th Round, 2008 Draft)

9 HR  52 RBI ..278  ** 76 G, 284 ABs, 35R, 79 H, 84K,  24 BB, 1 SB ** 10 errors

Jeremy Farrell – 3B – West Virginia   (8th Round, 2008 Draft)

4 HR  32 RBI  .260  ** 56 G, 208 ABs,  34R, 54 H, 59K, 23 BB, 1 SB ** 19 errors

Aaron Baker – 1B – State College ( 11th Round, 2009 Draft)

0 HR  2  RBI  .211  ** 21 G, 71 AB, 10 R, 15 H, 20K, 14BB, 0 SB  **  0 errors

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Let's put NH's list of acquired "prospects"on the field in 2010.

Jones, AnLa, Young, Moss, Vasquez, Ohlendorf, Karstens, Morton, Tabata, Hernandez, Milledge, Alvarez - the lot.

Play ém for a whole season.

They'd lose 120 games.

So much for your 'ïmprovement."

Okay, we're set now for the rest of this season.  Garrett Jones at first, Doumit at catcher, McCutchen in center. .  .with these three changes we have a better lineup than the one we had in early June when McClouth was dealt and we still had Morgan.

But keep Wilson and Sanchez--trading either would mess up a decent batting lineup. . . doesn't sound like anyone is hot for them anyway.

Last night the Altoona Curve faced a REAL PROSPECT, Kyle Drabek ... Doug's son. His season stats are 10 wins, 2 losses ...2.80 ERA ...118 K's in 122 IP.  In most trade rumors where the Phillies discuss trading for Roy Halladay, you usually see Drabek's name tossed around as part of the package. Check out DK's minor league report ...final score last night....Reading 7   Curve 2.

web.minorleaguebaseball.com/.../stats.jsp

Adam was not destined to be part of the future, so there is no downside to the trade.  The benefits, however, are three.  1.) We get a couple of guys who might pan out (I said might).  2.)  A few million of 2009 payroll is freed up either to sweeten a jack/Freddy deal or to sign Sano/draft picks.  3.)  We get to find out whether Jones or Pearce is a long term answer at 1B.

I suppose we'll see Pearce getting most of the starts at 1B, Jones in LF for now, and a platoon of Young/Moss in RF.  Pearce's performance determines what happens when Milledge comes up, If Pearce can hit ML pitching, Jones moves to right and Salazar goes down.  If Pearce doesn't demonstrate that he can get the job done, then Jones moves to 1B and Young/Moss continue to platoon in RF.

Then there's the saga of Jack/Freddy.  If Jack is traded, and we don't get a ML ready replacement in the trade, look for Freddy at SS and Young at 2B.  If Freddy is traded, look for Young at 2B. Either of those scenarios results in Moss full-time in LF.

Obviously, we have more options if Jack/Freddy are kept.  I like the idea of those two (along with Doumit) as the veteran, up-the-middle core surrounded by  A-Mac, Milledge, Jones, Moss, Andy LaRoche and Young.

I really don't understand the Diaz pick up. This week NH threw Jack Wilson under th bus for being a decent fielder who is a below average hitter. Then the PIrates go out and fall over themselves praising a player who right now can't field as well as Jack Wilson and will likely never hit as well as him. Curious indeed!

Dejan.

In today's conflicted Adam story you quote Huntington as saying:

"Right away, he's the best defensive shortstop in our system."

But in yesterday's announcement in the blog ( pre-game  announcement) You quote Huntington as saying:

"but Argenis quickly becomes the best defensive shortstop prospect in our system"

Sure a minor difference. But one upsets a bunch of other prospects in the minors who he probably IS better than, and the other backs the bus up over him again. I can't believe he thinks that right now Diaz is better than Wilson. As a prospect he may BECOME better than Wilson, but why say he is better now? Why lick Jack Wilson why he is down, and why basically say take our shortstop, a guy who is a below average hitter, and a worse fielder than a AA shortstop who has trouble making routine plays and has over 25 errors.

Dejan, could you see if you misquoted him in today's article, maybe leaving the word prospect out., Because if he didn't, he's much less shrewd than I thought he was.

Well, Doc, it's not like they traded Jack for Diaz straight up.  Neal said that Diaz now becomes the best defensive SS prospect in the Bucs' minor league system (sad but true). That's kind of like being the tallest pygmy.  Should they have traded for another potential center-fielder?

Doc,

I fear we may be talking past each other, but there's no way NH meant to imply that Diaz was superior defensively to Jack.  I think it's understood that "system," in this context, means "minor league system."

Roxtar,

I agree, or at least I agree that I don't think any rational man  would think that Diaz is superior to Jack. In fact, the first quote from the Pearce promotion blog piece yesterday specifically says "prospect" in it. But the second quote today says otherwise.

For me, and I am a bit of a "mixer" if you haven't noticed, I'd ask Jack and the major leaguer's what they thought of the idea that this guy is better than Jack. Or maybe I'd do the right thing, and check my notes, see if Huntington REALLY said he was better, then go back to Huntington and ask him directly. Remember Huntington is Mr. Open

But TODAY's quote clearly says best defensive  shortstop, not best defensive shortstop prospect. Those are entirely different things.

Morning Links Part 2

Play by Play Pitch by Pitch--Game won, lost, in doubt, won

scores.espn.go.com/.../playbyplay

Bucs’ fifth home run of day beats Brewers

www.tribune-democrat.com/.../local_story_204001852.html

Arizona vs. Pittsburgh

www.cbssports.com/.../MLB_20090723_PIT@ARI

Morgan learning to control powerful swing (Kyle, not Nyjer)

www.dailymail.com/.../200907230007

With Trade Deadline Approaching, Rumors Abound

bats.blogs.nytimes.com/.../with-trade-deadline-approaching-rumors-abound

DK,

So, can we now call Argenis Diaz "Dearth Vader"?  

Neither team was a winner in the Gonzo for Laroche trade.  Gonzo spent too much time OUT of the Braves' lineup, and Laroche spent too much time IN the Bucco lineup.

In yesterday's threads some people posted the web site : soxprospects.com  I think it is pretty cool that a team has a site totally dedicated to their minor league players.   Is there one like that for the Bucs.

When I went to a game at Fenway many years ago -before the invention of the internet-one thing that impressed me about red sox fans is that they knew all the guys in their system.

Hmmm, "the next few days will be more telling about how much money is influencing the Pirates' moves".  Think this refers to Jack/Freddy/Sano?

Until the un named guy who was offering babe straight up comes out of the wood work, he is spilling sour milk.

Adam, you have displayed much this season, thanks.

On the down side, what was adam hitting about 2 for 40 or somehting, silly silly simply silly to call moving Adam a salary dump.

Maz is the archives man and he will tell you that just early yesterday morning I thought it would take a blockbuster deal throwing Adam in to get someone to take his salary for two months hitting 2 for memory.

A couple of hours later: pitch boom, thank you, SIR L.

Funny how some who have been cring all season at each trade calling it  salary dump going back to last year and then to insinuate with these savings we dumped Adam because we did not have the money to pay him.

If that is the case the team bean counter must me a gambler and has had big losses this season, makes no common sense.

Guess what? other teams place expiration times on contract and deal offers, well I'll be a blue nosed gopher.

Imagine the press if the trade was not made and the mysterious other team had pulled back their trade offer, what a pickle the FO would be called this morning.

$$$$$  BODY WATCH – ATTENDANCE AT MLB PARKS $$$$$

Stats thru 7/22/09 …

30. Oakland……. 47 dates ** 832,711 total  **  17,717 avg.

29. Florida……… 48 dates ** 868,377 total  **  18,091 avg.

28. PIRATES ….. 45 dates ** 858,362 total  **  19,074 avg.

27. Cleveland….. 48 dates ** 1,067,545 tot  ** 22,240 avg.

26. Tampa Bay… 45 dates ** 1,036,712 tot  ** 23,038 avg

1. NY Yanks … 48 dates ** 2,180,076 tot   **   45,418 avg.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Doc, I think you stepped off the block, this is not brain surgery, I side it was a clear meaning to the minor syatem.

Watch Jack play, the insinuation from anyone that someone else in double A ball can field a grounder better than jack to insult jack would have to come from someone who has not reached the age of reason.

Stick Pirata's dirty sissors back into the antiseptic.

I see no blood letting here.

THE OFFICIALLY UNOFFICIAL PBC BLOGS AND MLB LINKS:

Hyzdu Headquarters--Hunting for a First Baseman

hyzduhq.blogspot.com/.../hunting-for-firstbaseman.html

Mondesi's House-LaRoche Remembered

mondesishouse.blogspot.com/.../laroche-laremembered.html

Raise the Jolly Roger--Bombs Away [Brewers 7 Pirates 8]

raisethejollyroger.com/.../bombs-away-brewers-7-pirates-8

Bucs Trade Winds--Adam LaRoche Traded for Two Minor Leaguers

www.bucstradewinds.net/.../adam-laroche-traded-for-two-minor.html

Sandlot Swashbucklers--Gorzelanny Tough in Tribe Loss; Pearce Back to Pittsburgh

mvn.com/.../gorzelanny-tough-in-tribe-loss-pearce-back-to-pittsburgh.html

Why Gavs--Wraping Up the Adam LaRoche Trade

whygavs.com/.../wrapping-up-the-adam-laroche-trade.html

Bleacher Report--What Does The Future Hold For Ian Snell?

bleacherreport.com/.../222165-what-does-the-future-hold-for-ian-snell

Honest Wagner--Brewers at Pirates

www.honestwagner.blogspot.com

The Green Weenie--LaRoche Joins the Goodbye Gang

oldbucs.blogspot.com/.../laroche-joins-goodbye-gang.html

The Green Weenie--Pirates Walk Off With Win

oldbucs.blogspot.com/.../pirates-walk-off-with-win.html

Moskie Madness --Late Night

piratesprospect.mlblogs.com/.../late_night.html

PBC Homepage--Moss' homer caps wild win for Pirates

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

PBC Home Page--Pearce ready for closeup with Pirates

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

Rumbunter--Photo/Video Recap Pirates Win 8-7: At Least We Still Have Brandon Moss

rumbunter.com/.../photovideo-recap-pirates-win-8-7-at-least-we-still-have-brandon-moss

MLB Transactions

www.cbssports.com/.../transactions

Bucco Fans--Pirates Notebook: LaRoche got a bad rap

www.buccofans.com/.../pirates-notebook-laroche-got-bad-rap.html

Bucco Fans--Adam LaRoche Mystery Team: Elimination Game

www.buccofans.com/.../adam-laroche-mystery-team-elimination.html

Bucco Fans--2009 Pittsburgh Pirates Draft Pick Signing Tracker

www.buccofans.com/.../2009-pittsburgh-pirates-draft-pick.html

Mlb Trade Rumors

www.mlbtraderumors.com/pittsburgh_pirates

The Unsportsmanlikes--Wiping Away the Tear of a Clown

www.theunsportsmanlikes.com/.../wiping-away-tears-of-clown.html

The "MC" Effect--The Adam Aftermath

eatsleepmlb.mlblogs.com/.../the_adam_aftermath.html

North Shore Notch Power Surge

www.northsidenotch.com/.../thursday-notes-power-surge.html

I really like the move.  I have no problem with this deal at all.  We all would have liked to have seen the future SS of the Pirates secured in a trade but I think its a steal that we were able to deal Adam and not eat his salary.  

If you read the articles they are making it sound as they are going to be paying 3mil plus a couple specs for a platoon guy.  

Good job NH!

I will miss Big Stonehenge, sort of, but as one poster accurately put it he was the wrong guy at the wrong time for this team. I hope he has some success in his new home. In fact, he probably will since he won't be made to feel he has to carry the whole team on his back.

I am neither here nor there on the return. Any time you trade someone who will be an FA, ANY return is a good one.

Many have commented on the lack of drama in the clubhouse over this. Knowing Stonehenge was heading toward free agency all along made his leaving kind of a foregone conclusion. The trade itself was anti-climatic.

So the Freddie/Jack/Grabow/Snell/Gorzo/God Knows who else watch continues....

Jose

You got it boys, follow the bouncing coins right into BN's purse.

Since we won't have any meaningful baseball in the majors for the next couple seasons, at least, I am turning my attention to Huntington.  I think the guy is earnest in his efforts.  The great question for me is whether he can succeed despite his owner.  In reality, he is doing the only thing he can with one hand tied behind his back.  Hopefully, it pans out.

Also, pay attention that Coonely has become very quiet in terms of public statements.  This is an indication to me that the guys near the top pay some attention to what is being written about them.  The guy at the top could care less, I believe.  A few weeks ago, the point was made on this blog that Coonely was almost acting more as the go to PR guy for the Bucs.  That has shifted now to NH.  Could it be that Coonely realized that he was tying himself too tightly to NH in the public eye, should these moves not work out? just a thought.

CuriousGeorge :you ARE aiming for Bazzini's # 1 spot,aren't you ? Dumb ? Or dumber ?

@roxtar - "Neal said that Diaz now becomes the best defensive SS prospect in the Bucs' minor league system (sad but true). That's kind of like being the tallest pygmy."

Oh man, that cracked me up.  Thank you.

This trade and the resulting reaction to it are a perfect snapshot of the mindset of Pirates fans.

The collective masses complain that the FO doesn't spend enough on payroll to even try to be competitive and that the Pirates don't keep their own players once they get "too expensive".    

So the FO resigned kept Adam at a salary of $7MM for 2009.  LaRoche performed as per usual, although instead of starting out cold, he chose to mix things up a little, throwing us some slump in May and again in July while actually being halfway competent in April.  

The collective masses were now complaining because they are paying LaRoche too much for his paltry production and that the Pirates need to get rid of him because he is a worthless pile of monkey excrement.  

So the FO trades him and his .247 average and 12 HR, in the process getting back two mid-level prospects and not being on the hook for any of the remainder of LaRoche's salary.

The collective masses are now complaining because the return was not high enough, conveniently forgetting that all of the other GMs watch games and send scouts and know that he stunk, and that this is just another SALARY DUMP ordered by Darth Nutting, even though they were the same masses that said LaRoche was paid too much for what he was producing.

Why can't people be consistent?  Either LaRoche stunk and was overpaid and NH did miracle work to get anything for him that did not involve the Pirates having to pay another team to take him off the Pirates' hands, or LaRoche was a productive member of the organization and they should have held onto him regardless of cost.  You cannot have it both ways, complaining that the team doesn't spend enough, but when they do, complaining that the results aren't enough.  

You think the Giants are happy that Barry Zito has been a colossal failure; how about the Rockies, who I think are still paying Mike Hampton even though he hasn't pitched for them for half a decade or more?  It happens sometimes, and with guaranteed contracts, teams such as the Pirates cannot afford to make mistakes (see: Pat Meares, Kevin Young, Jason Kendall, Derek Bell, et al).  This could be a reason why they don't spend $12MM per year on players, because without having expansive financial resources like the Yankees and Mets and Red Sox and Cubs, their mistakes can cripple the franchise for years, whereas a $10MM mistake to the Yankees is like you or I dropping a dollar bill down the sewer.

It isn't NH's fault that Adam, while being a class act, just was miscast on this team as Lefty McThump, and it's also not NH's fault that high-quality FAs (Texieira, Sabathia, etc.) aren't beating down the Pirates' door to play here, because he is not afforded the financial resources to make a play for them; as well, those players don't want to come here, not when they can go to the Yankees and be on national TV twice a week and headline Baseball Tonight and Sportscenter every night.

@good for nutting

I too have noticed that Coonelly has been quiet the past couple of weeks.  I believe that it is because they realized that there should really be only one person out in front talking about players and the roster.  And that should be the GM

With the impending deadline on the horizon, the situation with Sanchez/Wilson becomes a huge timeline marker in the legacy of Neil Huntington/Coonely.  Without them signing, they have nobody ready in even 2 years to step in to either SS or 2b.  Please spare me the possibility of Young moving to 2B.  His defense  will never allow any prolonged time there.  Diaz, who the Pirates just acquired may be a nice bench player, but you are not going to turn zero home runs a year into 17 a year no matter what.

So now we know the LaRoche deal wasn't about the money, per NH.  So there is 3 more million to shift toward two very good players in their prime.  No, they aren't hall of famers, but they are a necessary component of the building that is taking place.  If they get dumped, that is a huge indicator that the spin cycle is running better than ever on Federal St.

When I read the LaRoche story in today's PG, the thing that first jumped out at me were the stats that were listed.  He hit less than 60 homeruns while he was a Pirate.  sad.

@Thundercrack..

exactly right.  That coupled with the realization that Coonely probably eventually saw that having Huntington out at the podium regularly gives him that much more security in his job.  The way it was going for several months, The two guys were acting as one.  

Bishop,you hit the nail right on the head.But,be prepared for criticism,as some of these people don't like to be criticized.You might have hurt a few feelings,poor little fans that they are.I don't have to name names,they will show themselves pretty quickly !

@ Bishop: As I noted, I am neither here nor there on the return. Further, I have resigned myself to the idea that the FO is going to blow up the current MLB roster; either by the trade deadline or over the winter.

I liked Stonehenge's bat. He just needed better bats around him and therefore less pressure to perform well.

At this point though we may as well sit back and watche the payroll go to just a tick above the league minimum...

Jose

@ Lion43: Welcome to the blogosphere!

It has been interesting to see the reactions though and it amazes me that what is one man's salary dump is often the same man's sensible trade!

Of course there is the other faction who suspects we got jobbed out landing Sabathia in a staight up deal, I suppose!

Jose

I see Adam as wrong place wrong time.  His two major problems were expectations and the team around him.  The Pirates got him after a 30 HR season and expectations were that he would continue to hit 30 plus.  He also came to a team with no power and was forced to play middle of the order because the Pirates had no one else to put here.  Adam is more natural for the 6 spot or even the 7 spot.  The Yankees put Posada with his 12 HR, same as Adam, in the 6 spot.  As Jose posted, less pressure probably better production

Good morning mates, good tidings to you any yours today

IMO, whats the big deal with the Adam trade regarding return?  He was going to walk and we'd have gotten Nutting for him.  

I wasn't really upset with what went down till I heard Gammon's report of leaving a better offer on the table, DK explained it, but that is why we (PBC) has the reputation we do, Greenburg on Mike&Mike asked "is there anyone else the Bosox can call up from their farm team in Pittsburgh?  And then they went on dissing us for trading everyone

Dignity?  We need that, and as it seems far too often, something doesn't pass the sniff test.  We'll see what happens on todays episode of As The Pirates Turn....

Biz--

I'm not surprised that someone from The World Wide Leader, in this case Greenberg, would insult the Pirates.  If a team doesn't play in a major market, especially an East Coast one, the talking heads at ESPN know precious little about them and they certainly don't bother to look at the circumstances surrounding the moves these teams make.  

Maybe if they took some time to know something about sports reporting instead of sports entertainment, they would get into the details, like AdLa is a pending FA and getting anything for him is a win for NH, especially at his salary.

I missed the brouhaha the other night with Karstens/Kendall/Kerrigan so I apologize if this is old news, but what's with Ron Cook's article on Kendall?  Kerrigan had every right IMO to be upset that Kendall got physical with Karstens.  That's old school, Kendall telling Karstens to go to first or charge the mound and touching him in the process?  Kendall was always a hardnosed player, I'll give him that, but he fits right in with the Brewers' Fielder and Braun in the class department.  Karstens should have decked him and Kerrigan's response was old school more than Jason "welcome to hell" Kendall's.

@JAL

I think a large part of the issue is that most people expected Adam to thrive at PNC, with the short RF porch, so when he doesn't start hitting a ton of HR, it looks like he fails to deliver.

From MLBTraderumors.com from a Yahoo article:

"At least one NL executive believes the Pirates are ready to move almost anyone. Zach Duke, Paul Maholm, Matt Capps, John Grabow, Freddy Sanchez, Adam LaRoche and Jack Wilson could all be targets."

Here is the link to yahoo article:

sports.yahoo.com/.../news

If this is true, I will be very happy.  Think of all the young players that could come into the system in moving all those players.  Mind-bottling, isn't it?  Neal & Frank continue to demolish.  BLOW IT UP!!!

ej

Agree

Jersey Joe...

Oh, if only I made neurosurgical coin.

I do understand this is small potatoes, and I only bring it up because of Neil's recently putting down ( or exposing the flaws your choice) of Jack Wilson. It is an odd thing to say, and I suspect he misspoke ior was misquoted. But I do not know if he truly DOES believe Diaz is a better fielder than Wilson. I don't , but then my opinion doesn't matter at all.

It just seemed odd to me that is all.

Just I note--when doing the morning links several of the bloggers commented on how impossibly slow this site was yesterday.  They kept up with things from Dejan's Twitter posts instead of here.

Bishop,

great post but, I don't know anyone who thinks we didn't get enough. I may not think much of Diaz, but I don't think 2 mos of Laroche is worth much. This was a fair, even trade in my opinion. I do not expect either player to thrive, though Diaz may have a career as a backup or defensive SS on an AL team. These were best described as mid level prospects, and will likely help fill out the minor league roster.

Sure the Pirates FO hopes they got lucky with Diaz, but not every trade will bring talent back like Milledge, and every FO makes mistakes.

Until we trade real talent, we will not get a lot in return.

You want a big return, see what you can get for Cutch. That might get you a decent return

Doc

Do not this as fact but I think when Neal refers to the system he is referring to the minors, not the major league club.  

It was within the first couple of games and I am thinking the very first game when Adam had a two out clutch hit that gave us our first rally of the year.  At that time I ventured to say that every rally from here on out is a thanks to Adam for starting it off.

I also said from last year on if he repeats his start we are dead in the water come april.

Adam pulled it together to keep our attention to the chance.

It has been too long since Adam contributed with his bat that in some ways yu could say we have way overpaid per hit.

Moving Adam because of a realization that his offense is not enough since look how many are saying wrong team wrong time and being quick enough to not pick up the remainder of his overdraws in the same deal is not a salary dump it is a trade of a guy who has not done enough for what the team needs.

Does Adam fit out needs, no

would we have thought of signing Adam if he had a .285 ave. with 18 home runs and 80 runs batted in , maybe so

everyone knew he did not fit our needs.

There is a differance form following the money and understanding the money

Too many are culted into finding a way that everyday is money only.

Doc, I'll trade you even up

just rying to keep the conversation in a known atmosphere.

I thought to be funny.

i swear to you that if doumit's third inning homerun had been ruled a double after replay...the guy in charge of the fireworks would have been fired by Nutting.  those fireworks would have been the biggest personel loss this year to the ownership. thank goodness that guy was able to keep his job. it would have been a disaster...he already set the homerun fireworks off and it could have been just for a double. i was so upset. that guy's job was in the hands of those umpires looking at the replay. they probably knew and ruled it a homerun just so that guy didnt get fired.

Those who wanted "Major League talent" in return-

What, you wanted another Bobby Hill?  Cause that's what we would've got.

I think people complaining about this being a salary dump or another bad baseball trade or whatever are seriously not paying attention to reality, they are too busy dreaming up conspiracy theories involving Bob Nutting.

In case you didn't notice, we just traded one of the absolute worst offensive first basemen in all of major league baseball, and he's supposed to be in a friendly park in his prime.  

What's more, LaRoche is often even worse than his numbers suggest.  If not for one of two hot weeks the guys is probably hitting just .235.  His 12 home runs are 17th in the majors.  He is 24th in RBI, 19th in total bases, 5th-highest in strikeouts and close to the bottom in on-base percentage.

Basically, he's Aubrey Huff with more strikeouts and fewer RBI.  Would anybody here be crying over losing Aubrey Huff?  Really?  Check out the comparison-----mlb.mlb.com/.../sortable_player_stats.jsp

@daryle - You're right, I whiffed on Garrett, thankfully so.  I'd seen him play in Indy and liked him a lot, but I really didn't think he'd get the chance up here that he's gotten.  I'm glad he has.  He's on like a 90 HR pace for a full season.  :)

I don't think there is enough to get back in this thing this year, but if at least hang in it and stay under 90 losses I do think there is valid reason for hope next year.  We are getting some real prospects this year and are dealing real assets, which is the biggest change from past years when we've dealt garbage for garbage and never built up the system.  Once Pedro gets here, Andy will shift to 2B. I could see Jack staying, but that could go either way at this point.  This team really could be good in a year or two.  I'd love to hear them say that this money saved on the LaRoche deal will be used specifically to sign more draftees / Sano. That's house money we weren't expecting, so why not use it somewhere it's needed.  For some reason, I think we do sign Sano and all of a sudden, the front office is viewed as making a commitment to win and spending money to do so, even if it's only the money we'd already have been paying Adam LaRoche.  Could be a great way to spin the trades we've made and will be making this next week as a positive.  We have to sign Sano at this point, even if it does cost too much money.

@Gone Quiet - I think the deal you are referring to was Kris Benson for Ryan Howard.  It was before Kip Wells' days here and was definitely Kris.  I'm as big an Anna, er, Kris Benson fan as there is.  Well, Anna anyway,

Doc

Go back and read some of the posts from yesterday if you have time.  It may have just been the usual trolls out from under their bridges to throw stones, but there were, IIRC, a number of people surprised we didn't get more.  

I'm with you in the thought that until real talent is moved (Maholm, Doumit, even Sanchez), the returns are going to be of this nature.  I don't have a problem with that, because that's the reality of the Pirates' situation, but I wish others would recognize that as well; our best players would not be the best players on any other team, and thusly, we tend to overvalue our guys even though they aren't really of the level we attribute to them.

And with that, I'm out for the foreseeable future.  Have a four-hour drive ahead of me from Charleston, WV back to Monroeville.

regarding the Yahoo article/link --those are all names we've heard before.  The only ones that surprise me are Duke and Maholm...only because it would seem to me that they would have to get a major league ready starting pitcher back.  (unless they really feel that Lincoln would be ready at the start of next year and/or they want to move Karstens back to a starter).

People should really stop worrying if we got the best deal for LaRoche.  We got a deal.

"Huntington turning down a real major league player because of money???

Nah....That couldn't have happened.....Could it?1

Seems the puppet masters were working feverishly from above....hoping to save every last dime they could....tossing away any thoughts of actually winning.

And the swindle goes on....and on....and on....and on......"

=====================================================

Daquido,

You have no idea who that Major League player was.  Maybe the Phils were trying to unload Jamie Moyer?  Hey, I mean who wouldn't want a 46 yr old making 8 million, right?  Gets us closer to that $80 million, right?

Ya know what, Ed Wade probably called up Neal on the phone and said, "Neal, How about Adam LaRoche (who I don't need at all b/c I have Lance Berkman at 1B) for Miguel Tejada?"

My point is, how can you criticize a decision when you have no idea of all of the facts or the real reasoning behind the decision?  All you see is surface, yet somehow, you have insight into all Bob Nutting, Frank Coonelly, and Neal Huntington's thought processes.

If you want to speculate, that's fine, but please don't post as if its fact.  As if you know how the Pirates balance sheet looks.  

All you are looking for are reasons to criticize the FO.  If this works and the Pirates start winning regularly, then it'll be that ticket, food, and merchandise prices are too high and Nutting is just stuffing his pockets that way.

I really don't know what you see in our Major League players (guys with 2 yrs of service or more -- that's how I define them).  Maholm, Duke, Snell, Wilson, Sanchez, Capps, Grabow, etc. (there are a few others, but those are off the top) are all dime a dozen major leaguers.  We have no special players (maybe McCutchen & Jones, but they're both rookies, and we've seen what can happen after rookie seasons re: Ronny Paulino & Jose Castillo).  If you want to continue to watch losing baseball for years, then please, continue to support the past FO moves (sign Burnitz, Bell, Mondesi, trade for Matty Mo, basically sign or trade for marginal major leaguers who are past their good years, but we're trying to placate a restless fan base).  I refuse.

In a small market where you can't sign or trade for big name FAs b/c of recent history and monetary constraints, you need to develop through the draft, int'l signings, and trades.  The foundation of the Major League club is all of the minor league affiliates.  Neal is only in his 2nd season on the job.  It's going to take some time to right the ship, but if you think that this FO isn't different from past ones, well I think you're wrong, and, in time (next couple of seasons), I believe you'll see that.

<<I'm not surprised that someone from The World Wide Leader, in this case Greenberg, would insult the Pirates.  If a team doesn't play in a major market, especially an East Coast one, the talking heads at ESPN know precious little about them and they certainly don't bother to look at the circumstances surrounding the moves these teams make. >>

The folks @ ESPN used to know who the Pirates were when they were winners and they were regulars on the network.  I know this because I lived out of the Pittsburgh market and got to see plenty of them on ESPN.  The problem is losing, and being in a small market.  If they were winning and competing for championships, they would be regulars on the network, just like the Rays were last year.  TV,  just like baseball, is a business.  They know Pittsburgh is among the least populat teams in baseball as evidenced by being among the lowest in attendance, year in and year out......    

@ Dan1283 - Completely agree about people getting upset that this is another salary dump.  This is another move to improve the overall value of the club.  "The Plan" makes sense to me (at least what I think the plan is makes sense to me).  We need to stop thinking in terms of adding or subtracting salary.  The front office is thinking in terms of adding or subtracting value.  that's why you can consider keeping Freddy and Jack while at the same time consider trading them both.  It's not a change of mindset.  You take the move that adds the most value to the club, not the one that brings you up or down to your assigned payroll amount.

I would generally consider the "system" to be the minor league system.

I am getting awful tired of people justifying all of these salary dumps by saying it's more money they can give to Sano.  What about Huntington leads you to believe he will pay Sano one nickel more than he feels the player is worth?  What about the Pirates finances leads you to believe they could not have kept LaRoche all year and still signed Sano?  

This trade was made because the Pirates saved $3M.  I seriously doubt we will ever see those dollars translate into better prospects or talent at the MLB level.  The money will be pocketed.  In the meantime, as I stated before the season, get ready for 4-5 years of terrible baseball while they Build...not Re-Build, Build the franchise from scratch.  

I wonder what the trade value would be for DY?  Not that I want him to be traded, but we have many options in the OF and he seems to have slightly more value than Moss.  Anyone in the asylum care to weigh in on that?  Could he net a MI prospect seeing as how he could play 2B?

WietersforPresident wrote re:

What part of 2 for 30 something or even 3 for thirty something attracts to you keeping him?

Until the Pirates make the playoffs (which may never happen) or Nutting and FC hire a GM who is a former Yankee or Red Sox guy, the national media is going to label every trade the Pirates make as a salary dump and every player they receive in return as a non-prospect. That is just the way it is. Sometimes it will be right and sometimes it will not be right.

Gammons and crew have a man-crush on Theo Epstein - sort of like all of the male reporters who want to sit on O'Bama's lap. If Adam LaRoche worked for me and I knew he was going to only be here for 2 more months and then gone, I would get rid of him now and save the 2.5M. That is just good business. It is not like we traded away our future.

The only problem I have with PBC is  that they are not going far enough fast enough.

Good morning asylum members!

WDIGTSR & Allarmy,

You both are going to earn the "no soup" wrath from DK.

As he tirelessly states, PGH is not a small market--we have an owner that doesn't spend as much as the other clubs, for better or worse.

2.4 million people in the metro area is not a small market.

Sorry to be nit-picky, just want to make it clear.

@Curious George:  Man, that crystal ball you got must be the deluxe model!  What are the lottery numbers gonna be in 2010, since you're looking?

Look, some prospects pan out.  Some become stars, some become average players, and some become nothing.  But get this:  some players already at the MLB level get worse.  Some get injured.  Sometimes both go hand-in-hand.  The Mets right now are kicking themselves for having spent too much money on good major leaguers and not thinking about depth at the MLB level or in the high minors.  They can buy their way outta that mistake probably, but the PBC could not.  You wanna argue that the current focus on prospects to the exclusion of any MLB-level players is lopsided?  Fine.  But you might wanna knock off the BS predictions:  if it's a joke, it ain't funny, and if it's your argument it's unpersuasive.

Respectfully,

StevePegues

"This trade was made because the Pirates saved $3M."

Wiet for Prez,

This trade was made because Adam is a free agent and DL left our minor leagues a shambles.  Diaz is probably the best defensive prospect now in the minors.  Strickland has put up some good numbers and they're both young.  The only reason you don't trade Adam, IMO, is if you think you can make a run for the playoffs this year.

@ Wieters - This trade was made because the Pirates saved $3M.  

Yup, for sure, I would like to think the move was made in part to open up Adams spot to see what others can do, was hoping Moss would benefit (hard to type while you are ducking under the bed to not get hit by all the rocks thrown at Brandon supporters ; }, but now its Pearce that will play all the time.

If Diaz makes it to the Majors, it will only be for a cup of coffee, and this makes Bixler gone, IMO.  The 20 year old pitcher we got with 88 mph heat, is not consistent with the mantra power arm, so whatever,

Like I've said before, this is a no nevermind trade, we weren't going to sign Adam, he wasn't interested in coming back, and we are not going anywhere this year,

IMO if Jack and/or Freddy go, we can repeat that final statement again for next year.

I honestly don't mind this type of salary dump

sports.espn.go.com/.../story

Corpes for the Rockies is hurt and out until maybe Sept, maybe for the year.  It doesn't look like they are interested in Capps though.  

I wonder why they are not calling the Julio Lugo DFA a salary dump?

Every team dumps salary. Look at all of the layoffs in our Country today. They are salary dumps. They only use the term when a small market team trades a player making a large amount of money.

If a team could win the World Series with 25 guys making the league minimum, they would do it in a heartbeat. Make the most amount of money with the lowest output is every teams dream.

So, the Pirates aren't in a small market because DK says they're not?

The Pirates are in the 24th largest media market in MLB.  That seems pretty small to me.

@Joey/daquido/Goodfor,

Can you please provide any definitive examples of where, over the past two years of this management team's stewardship, the organization made a move based solely on creating additional profit for BN?

@Thundercrack,

Traditionally the president position at a ballclub deals with issues that are related to the business operations.  Thus FC would not be in front of the cameras discussing trades, signings or any baseball related issues.

The GM deals with anything related to the baseball operations and thus won't be out discussing things like ticket prices, front office hirings, etc.

Hope that clarifies it.  There's normally a clear delineation of responsibility.  I don't suspect any conspiracies.

Greetings All

@JAL- I agree that Adam is more of a 6 or 7 guy in the lineup. I also think most teams would love his glove and offense there. But 7 mil a year is pretty insane. I think at 3 - 4 mil a year, there will be quite a few teams interested in him.

One other note about the trade. I tried to post this on yesterdays gameday thread but had some technical difficulties. I've seen Hunter Strickland pitch a couple times this year in Greenville, and I can tell you that this kid is not just "filler" in this deal. He's a really big kid who can throw 4 different pitches for strikes, anytime in the count. His fastball, by most accounts, is average, but they started seeing him hit 93 this year compared to 88 - 90 before he came to Greenville. Both games I watched him pitch, I came away impressed. He's not overpowerinbg, but he's also only 20 years old (I think).  Plus he's not afraid of the inside part of the plate.

I'm not saying he's a "can't miss" prospect. He obviously needs some work. But if you watched him pitch, I think most of you would have made a point to remember his name.

@irate fan,

I believe I heard last night the the Red Sox are paying Lugo's salary.  That was the only way they could move him.  I believe they owed him $10-13mm over the next couple years.  I could be mistaken.

Looks like Theo makes a few bad ones from time to time, doesn't it?  Ouch.

Can anyone think of a more obvious trade candidate than Adam?

High Salary

Free agent to be

Team not in the playoff race

Replacements (possibly even improvements?) available on the current club

Not even a Type B free agent as of right now

No possibility of re-signing

The fact we got anything for him is fantastic.  Unfortunately, the casual Pittsburgh fans and the baseball fans outside of Pittsburgh know his name, making him appear as one of our better players and in turn, making this look to them like a salary dump.  But its just a really obvious and smart move.  Probably not a significant move, but smart nonetheless.

LaRoche leaving as a Free Agent would have netted the Pirates a compensation pick in between rounds 1/2 or 2/3 of next years' draft.  Is Diaz better than what we would get there?  Based on his 23 errors this season and lack of hitting potential, I say no.  The pitcher is someone we could get in any draft, so he is a non-factor in my view.

I could care less about dumping salary if they get a decent return.  What I care about is whether they got the best player(s) they could.  I do not think they did, therefore this plays as a straight salary dump.

If they gave me ANY confidence that they would use that salary savings to bump their draft budget to $13M or to spend another $3M on international signings, it might be better.  I don't think they will.  I also don't think they will spend anywhere near $10M on this draft, which should concern this group more than anything.

From what I have read Lugo can't really play anymore.  that is why they got rid of him.  He is a bad fielder.   Do the Red Sox really do 'salary dumps'?

I can now fullyunderstand why this place is called the asylum - its not just because diehards exist for this team under extreme circumstances - it also can mean that some folks here are not with reality..

How else can you explain those that think the PBC didnt get enough for LaRoche....Im surprised they found any suitors at all.......He underachieved horribly...He could scoop balls from the dirt with great efficiency but $7M cant be paid for that...

He was so predictable.....Someone else said it best - he was a good hitter when the score was 7-1 in either direction....He wont hit .250 playing in a penannt race - if he thought the Bucs fans were harsh at times - wait until he strikes out agaisnt the NYY at Fenway with the bases loaded..

irate fan wrote re: Morning links: Best deal available?

on Thu, Jul 23 2009 3:17 PM

I wonder why they are not calling the Julio Lugo DFA a salary dump?

Every team dumps salary. Look at all of the layoffs in our Country today. They are salary dumps. They only use the term when a small market team trades a player making a large amount of money.

If a team could win the World Series with 25 guys making the league minimum, they would do it in a heartbeat. Make the most amount of money with the lowest output is every teams dream

                                          BINGO

StevePegues : that was a really intelligent couple of paragraphs earlier,I couldn't have said it that well myself.The only flaw was there are a couple of others in here who you could have addressed that to also.Namely : Bazzinin,BFD,and Curious George.I swear that they must know someone in Nutting's office that they are able to read his mind !

@Wieters - re - Comp pick

Only if we would have offered Adam arbitration, which IMO we would not have.

I agree with you on spending this draft, the word is already out, budmeister will fine teams that pay over slot.  But we'll see

P_irate F_an wrote:

I wonder what the trade value would be for DY?

_________________________________________________

I wonder that myself.  He could be a guy a would-be contender worried about their weak bench would overpay for.  But I think a lack of track record would bring out the lowball offers, and I think the PBC would end up kicking themselves if they let him go for too little.

@WeitersPres:  You do realize that there is a pretty good chance that Adam does not get Type A or B FA status, right?

Re - Lugo salary dump

I think Theo/Bosox are going to eat most all of his contract.

Weiters

Biz is right

They have to offer arbitration to a player and  have him reject it to get a comp pick and only if the player is is a type A or B FA.  Current ratings have Adam as neither so the Pirates would get nothing.

As for the 23 errors, you should have read the artivcle yesterday where baseball people say  the errors are nothing to be concerned about

Steve ; the Phillies need a verstile infielder with some pop off the bench the way I understand it.Especially since they let Coste go.

@ Jefft - They could go for the double 'no soup' by suggesting that this small-market team needs to throw together a package deal to get better... ;)

Yay!  Any minute now we're going to try to refine a definition for salary dump!

Sarcastic Sword. Great post!

SoxFan,

You may be right in the sense that 24 out of 31 is not a big market, but the Pirates can spend as much as they want. If they were able to fill a stadium every (& I know I'll get grief for this, too), they could spend upwards of $100 million. My larger point is that they choose not to.

2.4 million people in the metro area is not a small market.

=======================================================

NY metro = 18.8 million

LA metro = 12.9 million

Here's a link to fastest growing Metro pop's as of 2007:

www.census.gov/.../009865.html

On the excel spread sheet, Pittsburgh is 22nd out of 100 (in total pop).  While not bad, most that come behind are not professional sports cities, and that is why I refer to our PBC as playing in a "small market".  Maybe I should say smaller?

Sorry, I guess.

OK, the Nutting conspiracies are out of hand.  You wanna know why Boston New York and LA can spend so much money?  TV MONEY!  You think FSN Pittsburgh is coughing up even 10% of what the Red Sox make from NESN?  Quit citing the Brewers too, because there's nothing in Milwaukee worth talking or doing besides baseball and the Packiers.

The Pirates haven't played on ESPN for years, and there is no competition for the local TV contract.  And how many Bucco Joe commercials do you need to see to realize the Pirates are having a hard time selling ads too?

The small market argument is a VERY valid argument because of the lack of TV money, advertising dollars, and the fact that fewer people in a city means less competition for seats means lower ticket revenue.  The Pirates could have George Steinbrenner as an owner, but without all that YES network money pumping in he'd be broke in 5 years.  Mark Cuban could swoop in like so many of you are cheering for, but he would go broke too pumping payroll to $100 million without the resources to do it.

By the way, this is a result of all those silly individual boycotts over the years.  Those of you who have done it have hurt the club more than you've sent a message.  It's entirely up to Pirates fans to turn this around by selling out the park and forcing attendance revenue up and driving up the TV contract price.

Clearly, Ad. Laroche needed both the pressure of a big-time pennant race and a short right-field fence before he could have performed to his own level of expectation.  Obviously, he only got the short right-field fence component in Pittsburgh.  This was a minor oversight on the part of everybody involved in the original trade to acquire him.  The only clutch moment I can remember from him recently is his HR off of K-Rod in the 9th against the Mets in the "Losing to the Pirates is an Embarrassment" rescheduled revenge game.  

Well just checking in and out this morning -- going to be gone for a few days -- it looks like the early reaction to the trade is overwhelmingly positive with the exception of those who few who are going to say either we should have done better (which doesn't make this a bad deal even if they're right and they can argue forever about what might happened if they're determined to be right) or that it was based solely on money (well not all salary are bad for the club).  

As for Pearce and Jones -- it's not like Jones isn't going to play or that the competition between Moss and Young is going to stop if Pearce gets a chance (All we are saying, is give Pearce a chance!) .  

Or should that be if Pearce gets a chance, again?  

I haven't been impressed with what he's done so far, but it's been what, 69 games?  Not uncommon at all for a guy to have a slow start in the first few years, then blossom.  Of course win-now win-now win-now win-now win-now win-now types have no patience for that sort of thing.  

JL -- If you're out there, will observe a moment of silence when I go by Frost, Minn.

Otherwise, remember I'm pullin' for ya'.  We're all in this together.

FormerSoxFan - I agree that its not right to say Pittsburgh is not a small market.  That is an incomplete statement.  The implied thought needs to be added to the statement.  

Yes, Pittsburgh is a small market, **BUT** small is not an excuse for not investing in the team since some of the smaller market teams (see: Milwaukee) manage to spend at or above the league average.

if he thought the Bucs fans were harsh at times - wait until he strikes out agaisnt the NYY at Fenway with the bases loaded..

=======================================================

Or GIDP with the bases loaded and one out down by 2 or 3 runs in the 7th or 8th inning...........

@Wieters

Actually, Adam has not yet qualified to be a compensation FA, so they wouldn't have gotten anything for him if they offered Arbitration and he left as a FA.

And, I would guess that he would likely get more in arbitration than out on the free market this offseason, so he might have just accepted arbitration and hoped for the best.

Dan1283,

Good point about the TV contracts. There's no question about that sort of money--it allows the teams to ante up for just about any FA they want. I have no idea how much FSN pays for the rights, but it's obviously less than those examples.

Your other point about filling the stadium is dead on.

ej,

That's probably true about Adam accepting arbitration. Even though he didn't produce as much as everyone hoped, he seemed happy here, & the fact that Andy was here might sway him as well.

Re - small market,

If I remember correctly, I think I read here that as far as income is concerned, the PBC only gets 1/3 of their income from attendance and concessions at PNC, so yeah, maybe we get a bit less for TV and radio, but....

Bosox and Yanks rake it in attendance wise, how many sellouts in a row have the Bosox had?  Average ticket price for each place has to be much higher than here.

You know, I just talked myself into a corner again, nevermind ; }

@JBurns

Milwaukee spent money when they had a team worthy of spending money on.  Which of the past 10 years have the Pirates had a team worth spending money on?

some say they would rather have the FO take the trade with the major league ready talent.. i ask why.    any major league talent acquired for Ad Laroche would be a bench player at best.. and why would we want some bench player when we are building for the future.. it would just create more of a log jam that would keep us from filtering in our young talent, milledge, pearce, etc..  even if we got a SS or 2B, the player most likely wouldn't be better then a Luis Cruz..    good deal in my eyes

@WeitersPres:  You do realize that there is a pretty good chance that Adam does not get Type A or B FA status, right?

That's the same thing I heard.In fact I read it was LESS than 50-50 he was going to be a type B.So they probably wouldn't get anything for Adam.

The idea of Steve Pearce getting another extended look doesn't do anything for me.  

The rest of the season should involve seeing what we have in Moss in right field, and Jones at first base.  Milledge should play left field as well.

Those should be the priorities.  Then you can have Delwyn Young and Pearce as solid bats off the bench, along with Cruz, Vazquez, and JJ.  Robinzon Diaz could even come back in a utility role in place of Vazquez or Cruz.

@Dan1283 wrote...By the way, this is a result of all those silly individual boycotts over the years.  Those of you who have done it have hurt the club more than you've sent a message.  It's entirely up to Pirates fans to turn this around by selling out the park and forcing attendance revenue up and driving up the TV contract price.

------------------------------------------------------------------

I have to ask you if you have lost your mind.  If you are delusional enough to think the fans actually have a roll in this fiasco we call Pirates baseball, might I suggest the Pirates hire you to take the place of Bucco Joe.  You are right about TV money, but to state that it's "entirely up to fans" to turn this thing around is hands down the most ridiculous, inaccurate, misguided, statement I have read in a while.

@ej - I don't mean to imply that I think the Pirates should be spending like the Brewers.  I meant that Pittsburgh being the 24th largest market is not an excuse for having a small payroll since other small market teams are succeeding with much larger payrolls.  But I completely understand that the Bucs need something worth investing in first.  And I think we're getting closer to that point.

Another thing about Milwaukee--Let's not forget these guys have got rid of the likes of Ben Sheets, CC Sabathia, Carlos Lee, Geoff Jenkins, Russell Branyan and Lyle Overbay over the past few seasons, so let's not pretend these guys are blowing the Pirates away in terms of spending liberally on high-end talent.  Most of their money is just spent wiser, on draft picks like Fielder and Weeks and Hardy and so forth.

ARR.

Was looking at the PG Poll that asked which, of the Morgan/Burnett, McLouth, or LaRoche trades was the biggest.  

I tossed my penny on the LaRoche trade because it is setting up to be the biggest impact trade.  For Morgan we got Blastings.  For McLouth we got Morton.  But the LaRoche trade does a number of things.

1.  Puts money in Bob Nutting's pocket.

1.a.  with the hope he will either sweeten the pot for jack or freddy or both or

1.b.  sweeten the pot and deliver Sano to his new baseball academy.

2.  Takes a .240 hitter and (I hate to say this) certifiable rally killer out of the heart of our batting order (I can't tell you how many time's I've squished my beer can in my fevered paw when he bounces into an inning ending double play.) and replaces him with a certifiable .300 type hitter with at least pop if not pure power.  Like a new carburetor in an engine, the offense now has a chance to breathe right and operate effectively.

3.  Gives Steve Pearce an honest shot which he deserves.

4. Could potentially unplug the outfield if GI Jones moves to first, clearing the way for what could be a very effective outfield of Milledge, McCutchen, Moss/Young.

Now.  All of this has not paid off yet.  But the table is set and a very good lineup is on the immediate horizon.

You could argue that the McClouth trade allowed Cutch to come up and that is an upgrade.  And Morton looks like a good part of the rotation.

You could argue that the Morgan trade brought Milledge, which will be an upgrade.

But the upgrade by subtraction of Adam plus the settling of a more permanent lineup is - well -  very big.

So.  To all you who voted in the majority:  Put them apples in yer pipe and smoke 'em.

Can't wait to see tonight's game.

"The 5 O'clock whistle's on the blink.

My Daddy's not home and whaddya think.

He's still workin' in the factory

'Cause he don't know what tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiime it happens to be!"

Wabbit.

Pearce, unlike G. Jones, has failed to take advantage of whatever opportunity (no matter how limited) the Pirates have given him over the last several years.  G. Jones has been here for 15 games or so and has 9 home runs, bats third, and has generally played so well that he has made it impossible for JR to keep him out of the lineup.  The key is that Jones has forced himself into the lineup.  Pearce, on the other hand, came up last year (or was it the year before) and it took him something like 2 months before he even hit a ball to the warning track, let alone out of the infield.  A few weeks ago, Pearce was something like 1-13 with 12 Ks.  Those types of performances make it real easy for the manager to forget your name when filling out the lineup card.  I find it difficult to imagine that in a two-week period, Pearce has incorporated some front office suggested "adjustment" to his swing mechanics that now makes him a legitimate MLB hitter.  We need guys like Jones that are going to take whatever opportunity they are given and run with it, not retread projects.  

I may be in the minority here, but does anyone else think its a great idea to keep Lastings in the minors for a little bit?  We know he's talented enough to be our left fielder right now.  But I think keeping him in AAA while Steve Pearce gets his shot sends a message to him that he's not just going to be given a spot based on 10 days of great hitting.  I think that's why management referenced Steve's attitude as a reason for the call-up.  It rewards a player for working hard despite being sent back and forth from Pit to Indy and in the process, tests Lastings' character by giving him a little adversity to fight through.  We know Lastings is ready physically, but to me he has to show that he's mentally ready for the majors.

Ok, so if they would not get a comp pick, something is better than nothing.  Impossible to know if these prospects are better than the other offer.  Still disappointing that the SS they got has had considerable fielding trouble at AA and cannot hit.

Pearce hits like Moss in the best case scenario, and isn't nearly as good on outfield defense.  No thanks.

Readin : 3 years ago Pearce was the Minor League Player Of the Year. Not the Pirates Player Of the Year,but Organized Basball 's choice.The guy could flat out hit,but he wasn't real selective,he went up swinging.But my point is this : some guys need to play regu;larly to produce,and some guys can come off the bench ( Young ? ) and hit 1 out of 3.Give th guy a chance,and then if he fails,he is out.In fairness to Pearce,Jones wasn't asked to step up and PH with the team down 4 or 5 in the 8th or 9th inning.

@Deacon

Exactly

Good afternoon asylum, I am glad we don't have to pay for any of his remaining salary, but I would rather have to pay a portion of it and get better players in return. I'm very interested to see fi we find out what team it was and who the players were. But oh well we got the victory yesterday thats all that counts. And does anyone else watch Mike and Mike in the Morning? Well I watch it daily and today they were talking to Tim Kurkjin, hope I spelled that right I am a big fan of his, and Greeny said if Boston needs anyone else will they just call their farm team in Pittsburgh? Then again Pittsburgh has turned into a farm team for all of Major League Baseball. Also he mentioned if he was a Pirate fan he'd be disgusted with whats going on. Well I for one was extremely upset with that comment and I for one am not all that upset with whats going on I loved the fact we were able to trade LaRoche for anything, he brought up the Nyjmo deal which I along with many many other Pirate fans loved, the Nady/Marte deal another one we got the better half of, and the Bay trade which is the only one I'm not sold on yet but if Moss and or Hansen and Morris reach their potential that could cahnge. Well I'm rambling on here so I'll put an end to this post.

Man! I figure there's absolutely no way to measure CLASS! Either you have it or you don't ... and that Adam LaRoche had a lot of it!

I mean, I could tell every time somebody hit a home run in front of him and he just kind of bopped people on the top of their helmet, like a nice big brother.

Wish you all the best, Adam!

@JBurns - re Blastings

Someone posted yesterday, much like Gorzy, its all about Major League time and arbitration, do not know if that was confirmed by anyone though

Wieters,

In order to get a comp pick for LaRoche, they'd have to offer him arbitration (assuming he even qualifies, and if he does it's barely as a Type B).  LaRoche then has the option of accepting arbitration, and getting a raise over his $7.05 M salary, or signing elsewhere.

I doubt he sees more than $7.05 M elsewhere.  Combine that with the fact that he would probably jump at the opportunity to play with his brother one more year, and I don't think there's a chance he signs with other team, giving us the comp pick.

It's more likely that the Pirates get stuck with him at a higher salary.  They can always re-sign him next year at a lower salary if they want him back.  He's not going to be a Type A, so he won't cost us a draft pick.  He also would likely sign at a discount to play with his brother.

Whatever attitude or other problems Milledge allegedly had with other teams should not be taken into consideration.  He should be given a fresh start with the Pirates.  By all accounts, he appears to be doing what the Pirates have asked and his performance in AAA so far warrants a call-up.  The Pirates have a real opportunity to show confidence in Milledge by calling him up now.  Such a move, sooner rather than later, will do more for any alleged attitude problem then the prolonged charade of having him go through some sort of AAA atonement period for whatever transgressions may have occured in the past on other teams.  

Just out of curiosity--is Pearce going to be arb eligible yet? Wonder if that would explain the "extended look."

I just don't know. I really hope I'm wrong, but does anyone else see Pearce as ready to join any other major-league club, not just the Pirates (who have such a dearth of talent that Jeff Salazar is still on the 25-man)?

jefft

Thats a great point there about Pearce, arbitration, and his "extended look".

jefft,

Pearce is not arb eligible; he'll still make league minimum this year and next. He may; however, be out of options next year...can anyone verify? That would explain wanting a long look as to whether or not they bother bringing him back.

Peace, from what I heard on radio after the game, will get the majority of the starts at 1st.  

I think Pearce should have an option left.  He came up as a Sept. call up in 2007, so that doesn't count, right?  Then last year and this year...so he should have 1 option year left.  I'm sure someone will correct me if that's wrong.

Adam, I think, would have taken arbitration if offered to stay here.  He liked it here and he loved playing with Andy.  

No props for him yet (or so I can tell), but Joel pitched 2.1 scoreless yesterday, and looked pretty good doing it.

I can tell you Sean Burnett wouldn't have been able to do that (against the Brewers).

And how Capps was able to get around Cameron's 1 out Triple (B. Moss almost with the nice play against the wall) is anyone's guess.  9 times outta 10, Braun doubles or homers (how did he K?) and we all scream about Capps.  We can't trade him soon enough.

G. Jones HR was sooo goood.  The sound it made?  Awesome.  

I am all for the trade of Adam LaRoche.  Good baseball move - guy was going to be a free agent, we got something in return (which I think was a flat out miracle) and it does give the chance to see what Pearce can do in a full time role.  Hopefully in a full time role, he can take advantage of the situation as Jones has.

I am however one of the ones who is favor of keeping Jack and Freddy and not because I won't go to the games if they are not there - I don't go to any games now.  I just think they need to have some kind of veteran presence for these kids and the fact that these two are a couple of the best middle fielders (not hitters) in the majors.  You need good fielding up the middle - gives a lot of confidence to your wavering pitching staff.  If they let them both go, they are going to have to spend some of the tightwad's money for a substitution on the field for next year and less money to sign Sano.  BTW, if you honestly think that the Pirates will sign Sano, I have some lovely property in the swamplands of Florida to sell you.

I, like many, am tired of hearing about the future but have no recourse but to wait for it.  Hopefully it works out.  

JJ,

"I wonder why they are not calling the Julio Lugo DFA a salary dump?"

Because he was traded and the Red Sox agreed to pay the remainder of his salary as part of the trade.

"The Sox are still responsible for all of Lugo’s remaining $13.5 million in salary obligations. That would have been the case had they simply released him, so by obtaining Duncan they at least get some depth for their system. Duncan will be assigned to Pawtucket."

www.bostonherald.com/.../view.bg

@ Wieters:

DK has gone on at length that mid-to-low level minor league teams have poor fields, which can inflate error numbers.  And I wouldn't say he can't hit, he's just not raking it.

Huntington has acknowledged that he needs to work on his stroke a bit, but I'm fine with a plus-plus SS prospect.  I don't see how this acquisition (w/ Hunter) is a negative.

IMO production should dictate who gets playing time the rest of the season.....

Between Jones, Moss, Young, and Pearce.

For a guy who claims he doesn't award scholarships, Huntington sure seems to do it anyway.

If Jones, Moss, and Young continue to produce, they should play. I don't see why Pearce should keep getting playing time if he isn't producing.

@Good_for_Nutting

The last time the Pirates were winning, what was the average payroll in baseball?  The average salary?  The average revenue generated by TV contacts?

Baseball is a fan-generated business.  If small-market teams don't sell out their parks and drive ticket prices up, thus driving up ticket revenue, the team will never be able to compete with big market clubs that have HUGE tv deals and attendance markets.  

Call my argument silly, but ever since tv money started driving up payrolls and salaries, the Pirates have been left in the dust, and it's based on fan-generated revenue.

@Lion43

Looking at Pearce's statistics, since 2007 he has played 69 games for the Pirates with 189 at bats.  An average of 2.7 at bats per game.  Consequently, not all of his appearances have been to pinch hit.  These numbers suggest that he has had plenty of opportunities to start and get meaningful at bats in games.  The bottom line is he has not lived up to the hype of being the Minor League Player of the Year.  

In comparison, B. Bixler has played 58 games for the Pirates- 11 fewer then Pearce, and has 133 at bats- 56 fewer than Pearce.  I would venture to bet that everybody in here has written off Bixler as the team's SS of the future based upon what they have seen both at the plate and in the field.  Should he not be given a "true opportunity" to prove himself with the Pirates also?

Compare both Bixler and Pearce to AMac and G. Jones.  When given their MLB opportunity with the Pirates, both AMac and G. Jones did things in their first few games (AMac with raw speed, clutch hits, outstanding plays in field; G. Jones with massive home runs) that caused people to immediately take notice.  Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for Pearce.  

I don't know if this means anything, but "Amazing Grace" just came on my IPOD / Computer as I was about to comment...

It's about time Pearce got a legitimate chance to show what he can do.  He's started a total of 48 games in the majors over parts of three seasons.  Based on his ML performance, he projects to be a better hitter than Moss (and Jones, although Jones has to be given the benefit of the doubt as long as he keeps hitting like this).

Two points:

1) Return for LaRoche - Nice guy, great glove, inconsistent bat. He was gone as a free agent at the end of this season anyway so getting the Red Sox to pay the rest of his salary and getting two prospects is probably a decent accomplishment. - IMO though Huntington is exaggerating the prospects ceilings, I doubt either will ever see regular major league duty and I also question whether the $3.M cost avoidance realized from LaRoche's contract will be refunneled back into the baseball operation. But regardless.....the trade is decent given the situation.

2) Unrelated to the LaRoche deal, but in response to comments upthread....I get absolute hoot from the so-called "masses" who will accept a $35M - $40M team payroll and 100 losses in 2010 and cling to the belief the club is heading in the right direction. - That is downright laughable after 17 consecutive years of losing.

DMac

Peace will still have an option next season-you are correct

I saw trade G. Jones while we can get top value for him.

IMO Jack, Freddy, and Andy would prefer 6'4" Garrett Jones as a target over the 5'11" Pearce if they can't have 6'3" Ad La on the bag.

@Dan1283.  You deserve some credit for trying to look at the big picture.  But you need to look bigger, still.  The underlying root of the problem is not TV money, though that would certainly help Mr. Nutting to be even wealthier.  The underlying problem is the infrastructure of MLB that has no cap or floor in its salaries.  Can anyone give a valid argument that having a salary cap in the NFL, NBA, and NHL is a bad thing?  Though it is a widely held belief that the absence of one is one of the biggest warts on MLB.  

Maybe as Pirates fans, we should all be watching the horizon for signs of who might be Selig's successor.  He has done next to nothing to change the financial picture of the game.  The players union continues to have too much power and I would argue that the dawn of an era with a salary cap/floor would be the most significant change to the game in decades.  Revenue sharing helps, but it is simply a bandaid, and does little to prevent the hidden dollars from being spent however owners see fit.

Thing to remember about options is that for years, not times up and down.  They have already used an option for Pearce this season so they keep up for 3 weeks, send him down for 3, and bring him up again--all the same option year.

Re: errors

I do not know enough about Diaz to opine at this point, but AA parks are not typically very rough and potholed.  In fact, there are a number of immaculate parks at that level.

It just seems odd that for a ++ defensive guy (according to most), Diaz has punted 18 balls or whatever.  Then again I suppose he's roughly on par with most AA SS's that I bothered glancing at.

Getting to many gray today to keep up--remember--an avatar gets your posts more notice, makes the posts easier to follow, and Instructions for adding one are here

community.post-gazette.com/.../default.aspx

Hostage

I am with you--no 100 losses next year.  I am less concerned with the payroll--sometimes good young talent is inexpensive, but I want to forward progress.  No more yo-yo years.

@ NuHo:  "I don't see why Pearce should keep getting playing time if he isn't producing."

----------------------------------------------------------

I suspect that this is Pearce's last chance with the organization.  His numbers have improved at the AAA level, his skills are ready for testing at the major league level (unlike his past promotions) and the team seems to like Jones in the OF.  

@Joggin George...I'd think that would be a no-brainer.  ;-)

Thanks, JAL.  

On Diaz- and errors-here is what Dejan posted yesterday

2:04 p.m.: More on Diaz, pictured at right: He is 22, bats right-handed and is batting .253 for Class AA Portland, with 14 doubles, one triple, no home runs and 24 RBIs in 76 games. His career average is .273, and his power output has been consistently low along. But Diaz is much better known for his defensive potential, which is rated as "plus-plus," in scouting terminology, and that is excellent. He occasionally struggles with the routine play -- 23 errors this season will support that -- but his range, arm and other facets are viewed as highly promising. Plus, baseball people always stress that errors in the minors do not make for much of an indicator, good or bad.

I'm not in for another 100 loss season in 2010.  I think this team could stand a chance to win next season if the *right* moves are made.

Anyone know the story behind the Pirates rights on Jones?  Do they own them for 6 years since he's in his rookie year?

@NH

"I get absolute hoot from the so-called "masses" who will accept a $35M - $40M team payroll and 100 losses in 2010 and cling to the belief the club is heading in the right direction."

I believe that you advocated that if NH was going to trade some players, he should just blow it up and trade all and go on a complete rebuild, correct?

If he would take that course, would the Pirates not have a low payroll and a chance to lose 100 games?  Would you classify that as going in the right direction?

I might add re Pearce - his promotions have come at times when the Pirates were in complete disarray.  It's gotta be tough to get promoted to a dysfunctional club.  This year, although they are still losing, no one is throwing in the towel; the vital signs are much better.

JAL

This Better?

@JAL - yo-yo years

If I remember correctly yo-yos go up and down, heck, we haven't had an up year since, 1997?

Has anyone seen Dave Kerwin??  Yesterday we had two of them and today???

A quiet day in the blog for sure, good, we're gonna need this rest

re: errors - I must respectfully disagree.  Kick 50 balls a season at AA or AAA and show me the baseball people who don't deduce anything from it

DFlash

Yes, they have his rights for 6 years

Am I living on a different planet?  Steave Pearce has been nothing short of horrible - every time he's been to the big club (about 2 too many, IMO).  

Also, am I the only one who thinks the Bucs are not 100% out of this thing this year?  With the pitching we have this year - IF Morton keeps it up and Maholm settles down - and the surprising offense we're getting from Jones and Young (and Moss, lately), I truly think we could run off a stretch of 10 out of 12 or 12 out of 15 and get back into this miserable division.  I can't see that happening by putting another automatic out (i.e., the gum-smacking Pearce) into what otherwise could be a pretty exciting lineup, with Jones at 1st, Moss (or milledge) in left, cutch and DY.  

Trade Pearce for a single A middle infielder and be done with this guy.  WTF?

wormburner

That is what Dejan posted--not me--and knows talks to baseball people.

wromburner

So you are disagreeing with Dejan, not me :)

EJ,

It was always my preference that the PBC build on the core that it had with Bay, McLouth, etc....

But now that they are gone, yes, I think the appropriate step given where we are is to blow it up completely and attempt to build a winner with promising young prospects.

BUT, there is always a but right? The difference is, I, in no way, shape or form accept the belief of the "masses" that when the new core is poised to compete in 4 or 5 years that Bob Nutting will step up and provide responsible financial support to fill gaps and retain the good talent.

With Bob Nutting as the owner the only thing this "blow-up" is going to accomplish is a re-do of 2004 through 2009 which was a blow-up, rebuild with a young core, lack of a responsible financial support and talent retention and blow up again.

That my friend, is not a direction I agree with.