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Post-Gazette beat writers Dejan Kovacevic and Chuck Finder blog about the Pittsburgh Baseball Club.

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Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back

By Dejan Kovacevic | 12:46 p.m. Sunday

The Pirates have pulled back their contract extension offers for Jack Wilson and Freddy Sanchez, but the team remains open to discussing the process anew.

Wilson was offered two years and $8 million, Sanchez two years and $10 million, with the understanding that there would be little flexibility on their part. As was reported here last night, Wilson and Sanchez rejected those offers, though Wilson was not emphatic in doing so. Neither agent responded with a counter-offer to the team.

Details to come.

UPDATE 1:34 p.m.: Some stuff Neal Huntington had to say on this topic just now ...

> On a deadline for getting these done or not done: "I think that comes when we trade one or both, which may not happen. We made an offer, and we put a deadline on it, which is something I've done with every offer I've made, whether it's a minor league contract or major league. You can't just leave it out there. We're a little time-sensitive here because of the looming trade deadline. And just because they don't accept doesn't mean they're going to be traded. If we get the right baseball deal, we get the right baseball deal. Typically, in a negotiation, you get a counter-offer. That's how conversations continue. We've not gotten that to this point. We felt pretty strongly that our structure was in place but that we were open to some adjustments off it. Not significant adjustments. Not huge differences in years or dollars. But if there was something that added value to the player, we're open to that. In our minds, they're not even interested in the foundation we've laid."

> On whether the difference could be made up through bonuses: "Something that they feel adds value. Obviously, their response is that they don't feel we're even in the same ballpark, and it's not worth countering. And that's understandable. We've made a quick attempt to sign players for what we feel works for us. If they don't feel it works for them, then they don't accept. We've made offers that we feel will be realistic given this year's free-agent offseason. Four position players last year signed contracts of three or four years, out of 107 contracts. Two percent of total contracts signed for four years. So we don't feel we're that unrealistic in our offers. We understand their perspective. We understand they think they're going to get more this offseason, and they're certainly entitled to that. That's what makes in-season extensions tough, in that you don't have that competing market to compare against."

> On what's next: "If they want to continue dialogue, we're open to it. If not, we understand. We move forward. No harm, no foul."

> On whether the Pirates could simply pick up the 2010 club options on each: "I don't know that that's realistic from a financial standpoint. A year ago, I was an idiot for extending Freddy for $6 million. And now, I'm an idiot for not being willing to give him a heck of a lot more than that. In Jack's case, he has played terrific defense for us, maybe the best of his career. But this is the fourth of five years that he's been a below-average league bat for his position. So, we've got to be realistic in our evaluations. We talk about that all the time. We've got to put deals on the table that make sense for us. If they make sense for the players, we move on. But we can't be held hostage because we don't have enough option. We believe that we have enough talent in the system that, if we have to trade for a shortstop or second baseman, we can do that. We could look for a free agent. Adam Everett signed for $1 million a year ago. There's going to be somebody available. Maybe not to the level of Jack and Freddy. But now we take the dollar difference and reapply that somewhere else, we feel like we can be a better team with two or three players instead of just one."

2:03 p.m.: Other tidbits from Huntington, on other topics ...

> On how long until Lastings Milledge arrives now that he is batting .520 for Indianapolis: "He's an interesting case. We're trying to get to know him, get to learn, get him to trust us, and a lot of things have come quickly. He's made some adjustments with Gregg Ritchie in Lynchburg, and we thought it would take him time to implement those. And he's taken to those quickly. We don't want to over-react and rush him to the big leagues, but he's swung the bat just great, worked very hard and, if he continues, sure, he opens the door a lot quicker than maybe we anticipated."

> On Ian Snell: "It's not really the baggage that's holding him back. Ian has spoken publicly that he doesn't want to come back, and it's tough to bring back a player who doesn't want to be back. There may come a point when we bring him back, and the increased performance will translate to the major league level. There's no doubt he's gone down there and thrown well. Time will tell."

> On the severity of Chase D'Arnaud's left thumb injury, he said it is not career-threatening and that he should be ready for Florida Instructional League, or Arizona Fall League.


Posted Jul 19 2009, 12:46 PM by Dejan Kovacevic

Comments

Tor Eckman wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 1:00 PM

I guess I don't see the point, unless it was just posturing.  Surely they didn't expect them to run in the office with their pens in hand.

macsinthebox wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 1:02 PM

Just when i thought it was safe to swim in the Nutting waters the the tight fisted beast comes back out of the deep blue waters {Nutting} that is

TJK33 wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 1:10 PM

DK:

I'm hoping you can get the scoop behind this...  I'm really confused why you'd ask players to take a pay cut, have them reject it and then pull back the offers?  

Where are they going with this?

MrB wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 1:10 PM

I missed Huntington's radio show today, did he have any further things to say on this subject?

D Sanchez wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 1:18 PM

So you ask the players to take major pay cuts, give them about a day to think about it, and then pull back the offers (presumably the most that will be offered to them)?  Why??

I understand that NH doesn't care so much what the players feel or how they perceive the front office's moves, but good lord.

darylethepiratefan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 1:19 PM

Ok now I am a little hesitant to sip another glass of the MANAGEMENT kool aid, The Pirate Fan in me says ok management wants to make better offers , the pessimist says they are saying dont let the door hit you on the way out, Which one is it, I am confused....

CURRENT PIRATE STANDINGS

8.5 GB OF STL FOR NL CENTRAL

9 GB OF SF GIANTS FOR NL WILDCARD

G-Man wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 1:21 PM

I think it's easy but mistaken to make too much of this news just as it was to make a big deal about the news that offers were being made in the first place.

Pirates wanted this all to take place out of the public eye but it became public.

The offers being withdrawn may technically be news but not really because Freddy rejected his and Jack seems unlikely to sign if Freddy does not. Nothing has really changed since a week ago except for a lot of high - and unrealistic - expectations for a few days.

macsinthebox wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 1:22 PM

              I understand the high-low game, or in this case the LOW- HIGH negotiating tactics. But let me get this straight, you lowball two of your best players on modest extensions and now that they dont rush to sign they pull the "offers" back?????????????

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

darylethepiratefan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 1:25 PM

@MAZ

That broom hasnt worked since we swept FLA awhile ago, lets hope it works today ...:)

Thundercrack wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 1:27 PM

NH said on his radio show that there was a time limit on the offers.

He did not use the term/phrase "offers were pulled back"

The headline to this blog posting doesn't seem to jive with what NH said. I can't wait to read the details to come from DK.

As I mentioned earlier this morning Freddie & Jack seem to get some great PR via the press.

Dejan Kovacevic wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 1:28 PM

@All: What it means, literally, is that those offers that were on the table came with a timeline. As noted, further talks are not being ruled out, and those initial offers would be the base of those.

Almost every offer that goes out to anyone comes with a deadline. These have passed.

More in a bit. Just spoke with Huntington at length.

Thundercrack wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 1:31 PM

Maybe the FO looked at those offers as starting points to negotiations.

With Jack they offered 2 years and it was reported that he wanted 3 years guaranteed.  It wasn't reported that it was a formal 'counter-offer' from Wilson.

For some reason I get the feeling that Freddie doesn't want to resign here.  Even it was a fair offer.

G-Man wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 1:32 PM

So, just as with a carton of milk or bottle of cough syrup, the expiration date has been reached.

Thundercrack wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 1:34 PM

Neither the headline or reporting from this initial post mentions that there was a timeline.   So all the people who hate the FO use that as fuel to their fire.

Now understandably,  DK may have been busy talking with NH at length.

leadoff wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 1:36 PM

The headline is not telling it like it is.

Huntington said there was a timeline, the players came back with no counters.

You people that are so eager to jump all over the Pirates front office should know your details before you start blasting.

Without a deadline the Pirates cannot make any moves concerning these players, in other words if someone comes along with a terrific deal before the the deadline and during the negotiation time line the Pirates would not be able to take it.

As far as the low offers, that is not necessarily true either since no one on this blog site knows the true value of either of these players.

Thundercrack wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 1:40 PM

Amen Leadoff

Thundercrack wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 1:43 PM

Neither agent responded with a counter-offer to the team.

In our minds, they're not even interested in the foundation we've laid."

darylethepiratefan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 1:44 PM

I predicted a 6 game win streak prior to the opening of the 2nd half, we are at 2 Here we go

First pitch to Rowand ball outside 1-0, rowand hits it foul to the 1b side, 1-1 , next pitch rowand fouls it back 1-2,  ball low 2-2, next pitch up the middle dukes cant glove it but sanchez fields throws wide but laroche is on the bag got em, 1 out, Randy Winn takes strike 1 , next pitch down low, 1-1 , duke comes set and a swing and a miss 1-2, the wind up the pitch foul ball , 1-2, next pitch smoked pass andy laroche for a base hit , runner on 1st 1 out, sandoval steps in  first pitch hit slowly to adam laroche who ptiches it to duke for the out at 1b, winn to 2nd 2 out, Molina steps in runner on 2nd, first pitch low ball 1 1-0, duke comes set  the pitch low and away 2-0, next pitch low 3-0, next pitch low ball 4 , runners on 1st and 2nd 2 out, Shueholtz steps in and takes a strike 0-1, next pitch ball low, 1-1 next pitch right on the corner for a strike 1-2, dukes comes set and a swing and a miss strike 3 , inning over.....Inning over no score

TJK33 wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 1:45 PM

I've never seen a 2 day deadline.  Not to mention how can they say the deadline had passed when both players rejected the offers?  To me a deadline isn't met when you don't have an answer.  Both players rejected the offers.  

socaldonn wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 1:53 PM

Leadoff,

I tend to agree.  This was just the first salvo in the negotiating battle.  NH aimed low and got nothing in the way of a response.  Nevertheless, he's established a starting point.

Keep in mind, too, that someone leaked this information.  I believe DK alluded to that previously.  None of this was meant for public consumption.  Let me clarify,  at least one of the involved parties didn't mean it for public consumption.

Dejan Kovacevic wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 1:54 PM

@All: Huntington himself confirmed that those offers are no longer on the table, but, as the piece above states, he is open to re-opening on both fronts.

People are free to view this as they wish, obviously, but both of those statements -- and the headline -- are accurate.

TJK33 wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 1:54 PM

NH almost sounds a little upset with a few of those comments.  

Kind of surprising that he's pretty much thrown Jack under the bus by mentioning that in 4 of 5 years he's been below average offensively.  While he's speaking from facts it sounds like the start of a very bitter divorce.  

darylethepiratefan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 1:54 PM

Amac takes ball 1 , next pitch low 2-0 , cain comes set and low ball  3-0,  ball 4 amac draws a walk

Sanchez steps in and there goes AMAC and he is SAFE, YESSSSSSS, Amac on 2nd, pitch was a ball 1-0 , next pitch strike looking 1-1, cain delivers ball low 2-1, offspeed in there for a strike 2-2, Cain looks in and delivers and Sanchez fouls it off , next pitch a fastball and called 3rd strike looking , 1 out, unlike freddy

Babe Jones steps in  first pitch in there for strike 1 , 0-1 , next pitch up and in ball 1 , 1-1, cain delivers a fastball by jones 1-2, next pitch another heater and a swing and a miss strike 3 , 2

Doumit steps in and takes ball 1 1-0, cain delivers next pitch high 2-0, cain comes set and delivers strike 1 , 2-1, Cain gets the sign comes set and delivers ball 3 high, 3-1, next pitch another HEATER and Ryan swings and misses , 3-2,  next pitch ryan swings and grounds weakly to 2nd base , inning over , no score  sf 0 pit 0

BigE wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 1:56 PM

Since DH hasn't been able to find a decent backup/AAA shortstop in two years of trying, how will he replace Jack?  With Freddy?  Oh, wait a minute -- Freddy's already turned him down.

Every Bucco GM has to find a way to memorialize his incompetence.  I guess NH has found his.  Congratulations!  

socaldonn wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 1:59 PM

TJK,

I think that's exactly the point.  They rejected the offer but there was no counter to it thus it comes off the table.  You can't have a one-way dialogue otherwise you're negotiating against yourself and that's not prudent.

JAL wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 1:59 PM

wasted a lead off walk--and he got to 2nd with no outs and still no advancement

darylethepiratefan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:00 PM

TOP OF THE 2ND

Renteria takes high and away ball 1 1-0, duke delivers and a hot shot to wilson who gloves and throws him out , 1 down

Bowker takes strike 1  0-1, next pitch low ball 1, 1-1 , duke delivers and a bouncer off of dukes glove , here comes Jack 1 hand grab and throws and gets him AMAZING, 2 DOWN WOW!!!!!!

Fransen takes strike 1 0-1, next pitch down low ball 1, 1-1 , next pitch hit hard to right center amac gives chase and just before the wall makes the catch and makes it look easy, inning over ...sf 0 pit 0

TripleG wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:03 PM

Very nice job Daryle.

Richie Hebner Planted a Few wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:04 PM

Why would a GM say anything negative about one of his players (especially one he may be trying to trade).  Filter Neal, Filter.

jersey joe wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:05 PM

                                   MOSS IS BOSS

leadoff wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:06 PM

Socal

Keep in mind, too, that someone leaked this information.  I believe DK alluded to that previously.  None of this was meant for public consumption.  Let me clarify,  at least one of the involved parties didn't mean it for public consumption.

____________________________

Very unlikely that it was management, who does that leave?

As far as an offer, when one looks at the offers with an open mind, the offers were not that bad.

I see no low ball here at all.

Freddie could wind up with nothing but a small buyout, there is risk involved for him. If he breaks a leg in the next couple of weeks, he could wind up with nothing. If he takes the offer, he gets 5mil a year for the next 2 years, which is probably close to what his real value is.

Jack can get 4mil a year for the next 2 years, if he goes on the open market his value is not going to be much different, except he has to shop himself around and go where the money is, here he has a guarantee.

Real Value numbers are something I would like to see on some of these guys.

socaldonn wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:06 PM

Speaking of nice jobs, nice AB Brandon Moss.

TripleG wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:07 PM

Moss saves his job!  At least for the moment.

darylethepiratefan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:08 PM

BOTTOME OF THE 2ND

First pitch to Adam ball low 1-0, next pitch fouled off 1-1, cain delivers another dart strike 2 looking, next pitch strike 3 looking  1 out

First pitch to Moss strike 1 0-1, next pitch swings and misses 0-2,cain delivers high ball 1 1-2, next pitch wide ball 2 2-2, cain delivers and moss fouls it off 2-2, cain delivers in tight b all 3 3-2, next pitch to moss and theres a drive to deep center rowand back to wall looks up and its GONE , HOME RUN BRANDON MOSS, THAT BALL WAS CRUSHED 1-0 PIT

Andy takes low ball 1 1-0, next pitch strike 1 1-1, cain delivers and hit to bowker and throws to first 2 0ut

Jack steps in takes ball 1 low 1-0, cain delivers offspeed and jack misses 1-1 , breaking ball pulled foul 1-2, cain comes set and blows one right by jack 3 out

PIT 1 SF 0

darylethepiratefan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:09 PM

@ TRIPLE G

Thanks, not of DMAC Quality but its fun

darylethepiratefan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:13 PM

TOP OF THE 3RD

Cain takes strike 1 0-1, next pitch strike 2 looking 0-2, duke delivers and a swing and a miss  1 out

Rowand steps in and takes outstide ball 1 1-0 , next pitch in there for strike 1 1-1, next pitch grounded to short and jack makes the play 2 out

Winn takes low ball 1 1-0, duke gets the call strike 1 on the corner 1-1, duke delivers and a little roller back to duke who fields off the mound and makes the play 3 DOWN INNING OVER

PIT 1 SF 0

Dejan Kovacevic wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:13 PM

@Leadoff: Contract extensions very rarely stay secret, much less something with established players, and two of them at that. The number of people who hear about them spans players, other agents, the union, people in and around management ... it's a lot of people.

Trades are different, at least at the outset. Mostly, it is one GM talking to another GM on his cell, and that's it. Once it gets serious, scouts and others get involved, of course.

socaldonn wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:14 PM

leadoff,

Agree again.  It wasn't the FO that leaked it.  Public outcry, much like we've seen here (not that there's anything wrong with that) is what the agents count on as well in the process.  I think NH's comments about Wilson's offense is possibly a counterbalance to that.

I think the offer, looked at objectively based on comparables, was a reasonable place to start discussions.

wakerider429 wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:19 PM

Maybe Moss can start gaining trade value in the next couple weeks.

darylethepiratefan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:19 PM

BOTTOM OF THE 3RD

Duke takes strike 1 0-1, next pitch in there for strike 2 0-2, cain delivers and duke fouls it off 0-2,next pitch breaking ball down low 1-2,next pitch duke fouls it off 1-2, next pitch low ball 2 2-2 , way to battle duke, cain comes set and duke grounds out to 2nd 1out

AMAC steps in and takes low ball 1 1-0, cain delivers a strike 1-1, amac fouls it off 1-2, Cain looks in the pitch fouled off to the first base side, 1-2, next pitch strike 3 looking , wow 2 out

Sanchez at the plate, breaking ball high 1-0, next pitch a heater for strike 1 , 1-1, cain delivers low ball 2 2-1, cain to the plate and freddy flies out to center 3 down

PIT 1 SF 0

darylethepiratefan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:20 PM

@DK

You changed the hair, looks sharp

leadoff wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:21 PM

DK

Thank you for the clarification.

Dan1283 wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:22 PM

I'll give Huntington one thing, he is very good at making his side of the argument clearly and in terms that most anyone can understand.  I find myself agreeing with him in this case, which either means that I'll drink whatever Kool-Aid is put in front of me, or he's right.  I tend to think he's right.

Dejan Kovacevic wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:25 PM

@Daryle: Actually, the new head shot, finally taken yesterday, was aimed more at getting rid of that one that showed me with 30 more pounds than I currently am carrying.

But hey, thanks.

TJK33 wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:25 PM

DK:

Good job changing the mug shot.  

Where do you feel they go with Snell?  He's certainly not helping the Pirates by letting everyone else know he does not want to come back.  

darylethepiratefan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:26 PM

TOP OF THE 4TH

First pitch to SANDOVAL ball 1 1-0, next pitch hit hard to 2nd and Freddy makes a hell of a play 1 out

Molina takes ball 11-0, next pitch strike 1 1-1, next pitch hit to cf for a base hit

Schulholtz fouls it off 0-1, next pitch lined to center and hangs up long enough for amac to make the play  2 out runner on 1st

Renteria steps in takes ball 1 , 1-0, next pitch strike 1 , 1-1, duke delivers and renteria fouls it off 1-2, duke delivers and a swing and a miss strike 3 on a fastball to retire the side

PIT 1 SF 0

socaldonn wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:27 PM

I agree with DK in that this stuff doesn't stay secret forever.  My question would be, if intentionally leaked, what was the motivation and who stands to gain more from it?

Nor is this type of activity exclusive to agents though it would tend to be more benefical to them more often than not I would think.

darylethepiratefan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:28 PM

@DAN1283

I am pouring a glass right now myself, man he said it as clear as day , no better way to say it..

JAL wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:29 PM

Dejan

Good new picture--glad we now see the current you :0

JAL wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:31 PM

TJK33

With 168 posts maybe should consider getting an avatar--really does make the posts easier to follow.

darylethepiratefan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:32 PM

BOTTOM OF THE 4TH

G JONES takes ball 1, 1-0, next pitch ball 2 , 2-0 next pitch strike 1, 2-1, cain delivers a curve ball for a strike 2, 2-2, next pitch strike 3 1out

Doumit takes ball 1 , 1-0 next pitch smashed down the the 1b line doumit headed to 2nd and Doumit is gunned down trying to get a double, 2out

Adam Laroche steps in and O MY , belts one to the RC wall and Adam cruises in with a double..

Moss steps in swings and misses 0-1, cain delivers and another swing and a miss, 0-2, next pitch another swing and a miss on a changeup , inning over

PIT 1 SF 0

JAL wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:32 PM

Ryan--you do not have the speed to leg out doubles--

TJK33 wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:37 PM

@JAL...  

My lack of an avitar is my trade mark!

Actually if I could figure out how to do it I probably would.  

darylethepiratefan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:38 PM

TOP OF THE 5TH

Bowker steps in and grounds the first pitch to freddy, 1 out

Duke looks in delivers to Frandsen for strike 1 , 0-1, next pitch bounces to the plate 1-1, duke comes set  delivers ball 2, 2-1, duke delivers and frandsen grounds to adam laroche for the unassited out, 2 down

LETS GO ZACK

Next pitch to Cain and there is a drive to deep center and AMAC cant get it and it bounces over the wall for a ground rule double

Rowand takes strike 1 , 0-1, next pitch rowand fouls it off , 0-2, duke delivers and rowand gets jammed and fouls it off, 0-2, duke comes set delivers and a swing and a miss , yesssssssssssssss inning over

PIT 1 SF 0

leadoff wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:40 PM

TJK

Where do you feel they go with Snell?  He's certainly not helping the Pirates by letting everyone else know he does not want to come back.  

___________________________

Neal sounded confused on what to do with Snell on his radio show, Snell told someone in I believe it was the Trib that he did not want to come back to the Pirates. Neal was told this by Brown.

Neal said that makes it tough on the clubhouse, putting someone there that does not want to be there.

Just my opinion here, but I think they would love to trade Snell, they are impressed with his stuff and his attitude since he went to Indy.

Life Irritates Art wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:44 PM

"NH almost sounds a little upset with a few of those comments.  

Kind of surprising that he's pretty much thrown Jack under the bus by mentioning that in 4 of 5 years he's been below average offensively.  While he's speaking from facts it sounds like the start of a very bitter divorce. "

I see what you're saying about the bitter divorce stuff, but I love Neal's candor, and I'm sure other GM's do too. He's open with the fans, media, and with other GM's, and I think it serves us all.

MarkInDallas wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:45 PM

I think it's probable that the Pirates go for a free agent SS this offseason. That will either be Jack or someone else. My guess is John McDonald of Toronto for about $1.5M.

JAL wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:50 PM

TDK33

I have instructions for adding an avatar on my page--just click on mine to get to them if you want.  Just need a picture on your computer that you want to use.  

darylethepiratefan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:51 PM

BOTTOM OF THE 5TH

Andy steps in and 1st pitch swingging grounds to Sandoval and 1 out  Way to make the pitcher work Andy

Wilson steps in takes strike 1 ,0-1, next pitch low ball 1, 1-1, next pitch strike 2, cain delivers and jack fist one into center over the 2nd baseman's head, base hit

Duke ab and will put down a succesful bunt, jack to 2nd and 2 down

Amac steps in and takes a BIG CURVEBALL for strike 1 , 0-1, next pitch low 1-1, Cain comes set and low in the dirt 2-1, Cain delivers a changeup for a strike 2-2, next pitch offspeed and AMAC gets a piece to stay alive, 2-2, next pitch fouled off 2-2, cain delivers and its fouled off, way to battle amac, 2-2, the pitch and another foul, 2-2, 9th pitch of the ab, cain comes set and just misses ,3-2, the pitch pulled foul, they'll do it again , cain delivers and its ball 4 , way to go amac

Runners on 1st and 2nd

Freddy steps in and takes a curve for a strike 0-1, next pitch outside and freddy swings and fouls it off, 0-2, next pitch a high heater and freddy swings and misses inning over,

PIT 1 SF 0

MarkInDallas wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:51 PM

Even though Snell has said he doesn't want to come back to the Pirates, I don't think that will preclude some team wanting to trade for him and offering something pretty good. The Pirates got Milledge for Nyjer, so some team will offer something probably similar for Snell, considering the job he's doing at AAA.

JAL wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:51 PM

Duke at 57 pitches through 5  Cain at 85 through 5

JAL wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:54 PM

Markln

Possibly-but when you asked to be sent to the monors and then say you do want to come back that might raise some red flags for other teams in term of mental makeup.

Bucco Fan For Life wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 2:56 PM

Who woke up the Giants bats?

JAL wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:00 PM

double times 3--not a good inning

BigFiddy wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:01 PM

Amazing pitching this series.  I would have loved to have seen this pitching last season when our Buccos had Bay, Nady, McLouth, etc.  I think Joe Kerrigan should get a ton of the credit.

Last night on this blog, somebody predicted Moss would hit a homer.  They were right.

socaldonn wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:02 PM

double times 4 --even worse.

TripleG wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:02 PM

This game went south pretty quickly.  Oy.

darylethepiratefan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:02 PM

TOP OF THE 6TH

Winn takes a ball 1-0, next pitch fouled off 1-1, duke delivers outside 2-1, next pitch hit to center and amac has a beat and dives and misses ball get passed him moss backs him up and winn into 2nd

Next Pitch to Sandoval and he smokes it to the gap in lf , Winn scores and ties it up and the Bucs are in trouble, runner on 2nd

Next pitch to Molina and theres a drive to rf and its off the wall and jones retrieves it and fires to 2nd , sandoval to 3rd and now no outs and runners on 2nd and 3rd...

schelotz steps in and swings and misses, 0-1 , next pitch low, 1-1, duke delivers and schulotz swings and misses , 1-2, next pitch low 2-2, duke delivers and its fouled off , 2-2, duke comes set and delivers a ball low 3-2, next pitch lined down the rf line for a 2b, 2 runners score and its 3-1 bad guys, 4 consectuive doubles this inning

renteria takes a ball 1-0, next pitch hit to moss in right one out finally.. runner tags and goes to 3rd.

bowker flies to center and amac gloves it and runner tags and safe by a mile 4-1 bad guys

frandsen grounds first pitch to freddy for out no. 3

SF 4 PIT 1

MarkInDallas wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:07 PM

@JAL -

No doubt it's going to be a flag and teams will want to evaluate whether it makes sense or not. I don't see a contender trading for him for the stretch run - it would be more like the Nats or Cleveland who would be building for the future.

G-Man wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:08 PM

Compared to the new avitar, your old one looks ever so slightly like Matt Capps.  ;-)

STLRFANRC wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:08 PM

Ok guys i know that you guys are all knee deep into the ballgame, but i just now got to read whats going on.

heres my take....if you go to buy a car, do you pay sticker price?  ah, no....so yes the FO low balled them, thats their job, plus, if they would've paid too much then we'd all be in here crying that they overpaid for these guys.....my problem is, why would the agents/players NOT counter??  

So my question is, who's blowing more smoke up the fans rearends? the FO or the two players that said that "they want to stay in Pittsburgh" because lets face it people, if someone wants to stay here, you would think that there would atleast be a counter offer....

just my thoughts

darylethepiratefan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:09 PM

BOTTOM OF THE 6TH

G JONES steps in takes strike 1, next pitch a swing and a miss 0-2, cain delivers and  routine fly out to rf  , 1 down

Doumit takes ball 1, next pitch in for a strike , 1-1, next pitch outside 2-1, cain delivers and its smoked foul, 2-2, cain delivers low, 3-2, next pitch grounded to 1b 2 down

Adam takes a strike 0-1, next pitch low , 1-1, next pitch adam swing and misses a slider, 1-2, cain delivers high, 2-2, next pitch weakly hit to 2nd and the side is retired,

SF 4 PIT 1

MarkInDallas wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:10 PM

Since Cain looks a lot more hittable than the previous two pitchers we've faced, it is discouraging that we're having the same result.

leadoff wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:13 PM

STLR

.so yes the FO low balled them

______________________________

Still not convinced these players were low balled, no on this blog site has been able to come up with true value figures for these guys.

STLRFANRC wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:13 PM

does anyone think that Snell could bring us a SS/2B in a trade...atleast one that might be ready to come the bigs?? the way pitching is today...i dont see why not.

darylethepiratefan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:14 PM

TOP OF THE 7TH

Cain takes a breaking ball for a strike, 0-1, next pitch low ball 1,1-1, next pitch low , 2-1 , next pitch cain swings and misses, 2-2, zack delivers and a called 3rd strike 1 out

Rowand first pitch swinging grounds to laroche at 3b and is easily retired, 2 down

Winn takes a ball low 1-0, next pitch hit hard and deep to center amac on his horse and makes the play , ala willie mays side retired

SF 4 PIT 1

Ben State wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:18 PM

Wow, nice grab by McCutchen.

Anyways, we may not like it but Huntington sounds like a real live executive. He is paid to make the tough decisions. The test will come when we're actually close and we need that extra bit of cash to push us over.  My mindset is to believe what he says for now and if he says the numbers don't fit his plan, I'm fine with that.  Especially when he articulates it so bluntly yet logically.

STLRFANRC wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:19 PM

im not too upset if they lose tonight, a series win is a series win..i'll take it...it is only a 3 game series right?

JosePagan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:19 PM

@ DK: Congrats on the new "look!" My son was in Slovenia/Croatia a couple of years back and you look like one of the boys from the old 'hood. I realize, of course that you are one of the boys from the old 'hood, but you get my drift (meant as a compliment).

Being only a generation removed myself I realized then that I look like I could blend into the crowd there as well (My dad and his sibs don't count as 1st generation as my grandparents were literally from the same village but married here). My son had to explain several times that he was from here, not there (as if his inability to speak Slovene or Serbo-Croatian wasn't enough). I should invite  you to Slovenefest one of these years: swimming and such for the kids; beer, polka music and lots of food for the grownups.

In re: Snell.  That young man is making it more and more difficult to dispose of via trade. Does his contract have a buyout, I wonder?

I said before the season even started that he should have a psychologist attached to him permanently...

Jose

Praying for Rain wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:19 PM

STLRFAN,

I don't think there is any chance that Snell will return a major league ready middle infielder.  The Bucs would be selling very low.

Praying for Rain wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:21 PM

Mark,

I don't think Cain looks to be that much easier to hit than Zito.  He was an all star and has been hitting 95 today with a nice curve ball.

darylethepiratefan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:22 PM

BOTTOM OF THE 7TH

First pitch to Moss and he grounds out to 2nd 1 out

Andy Laroche steps in takes a strike 0-1, next pitch lined into lf for a base hit,

Jack steps in and takes a strike call , 0-1, next pitch a swing and a miss, 0-2, cain delivers and a routine fly out to cf , 2 out

Salazar on to pinch hit,  pitch low , 1-0, next pitch 1 hopper to 1b and the side is retired

SF 4 PIT 1

leadoff wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:25 PM

STLR

does anyone think that Snell could bring us a SS/2B in a trade...atleast one that might be ready to come the bigs?? the way pitching is today...i dont see why not.

______________________________

The Pirates will be happy to get rid of him just to get rid of his contract. If Neal can pull off a deal for a quality middle infielder, he will be executive of the year and get arrested for stealing.

TJK33 wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:25 PM

Well I think I got the avitar figured out...

Can we please discuss this horrible offense...  Last 10 games...

7/18 - 6 hits - 2 runs

7/17 - 6 hits - 2 runs

7/12 - 7 hits - 2 runs

7/11 - 10 hits - 7 runs

7/10 - 6 hits - 2 runs

7/8 - 5 hits - 0 runs

7/7 - 7 hits - 6 runs

7/6 - 4 hits - 1 run

7/5 - 3 hits - 0 runs

7/4 - 9 hits - 3 runs

Average of 6 hits per game with 2.5 runs.  This does not include the 1 run and 5 hits through 7 innings today.  Put into perspective Garrett Jones has accounted for 25% of the runs with his solo HR's.  

This kind of offense is absolutely sickening.  

JAL wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:26 PM

Daryle

Nice job with the PBP  

TJK33 wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:28 PM

Not sure we can sit and say that the Pirates "low balled" their offers.  I think what they did was take a look at who signed last off season and for what price and length of deal and subsequently offered what they felt was a deal in the same range.  

Just because its a pay cut for both players doesn't mean it should be considered low balled.  

Finally the Pirates aren't over paying (Jason Kendall) just to keep fan favorites.  

STLRFANRC wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:29 PM

thats what i was thinking...snell's such a nut case and the good thing is, it seems as though the FO isnt going to put up with it...

socaldonn wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:29 PM

Jose,

And all these years I thought you were Puerto Rican.....

darylethepiratefan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:32 PM

TOP OF 8TH INNING

Sandoval takes ball low 1-0, next pitch from joel high 2-0, next pitch fouled off , 2-1, next pitch strike , 2-2 , sandoval fouls off the next pitch , next pitch a swing and a miss, strike 3 1 out

Molina first pitch swinging and a blast to ss and off of wilsons knee and a base hit

Schuholtz takes strike 1 , next pitch in there for strike 2 , 0-2, joel selivers low for a ball , 1-2, next pitch popped up to lf and moss makes the play, 2 out

Renteria steps in and swings at the first pitch , 0-1, next pitch another swing and a miss 0-2, next pitch in the dirt 1-2, joel delivers and low ball 2, 2-2, joel delivers and a routine fly to amac inning over

SF 4 PIT 1

JosePagan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:32 PM

@ Stlrfan: At this point we would be lucky to get a six-pack of Penn Brewery Dark beer and box seats to the next Toledo Mud Hens game.

Also, while negotiating can be compared to buying a car, if I walk into a BMW dealership and say: "I'll give ya $10K for that brand new 5 Series over there." I don't think there will be a counter-offer. There is such a thing as starting too low.

Jose

JAL wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:33 PM

TJK

Glad you figured out it out.

The offense has been terrible.  Pirates fail to string hits together.  Look at this game:  1st--lead off walk, steal 2nd, stays there.  4th--single, thrown out trying for 2, then double-no runs  5th single, sac, walk, K-no runs  7th-Single with one out then nothing.

Giants got 4 runs in 1 inning with 4 doubles then advancing the 4th to 3rd and then sac fly getting him in.  

darylethepiratefan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:33 PM

@JAL

LOLLL, thanks  I feel like a court reporter,

JosePagan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:33 PM

@ socaldon: We are all full of surprises!

JosePagan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:38 PM

@ TJK: You can make that argument, however, does that mean that any contract signed is subject to renegotiation if the market goes down? What happens if the market goes up?

JAL wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:40 PM

Jose

My grandparents came here from what was the Austro-Hungarian Empire --a bit north --from the area near the Ukraine border

STLRFANRC wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:42 PM

Jose-very true....you'd probalby be kicked out of the bmw place...however, i wouldnt say they low balled them too low....its not his $8 mil option...5 mil a year is more than he's going to get in the FA market...i believe.

Life Irritates Art wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:45 PM

If you don't think they low-balled Freddy Sanchez, you're not thinking clearly. He goes from eight million next year, to ten for two years. That's pretty much like signing a one year-two million extension for a recent batting champion and 3 time all-star. Keep in mind two of those appearances he went with a teammate, so that's not inflated by being your team's required all-star selection.

JAL wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:46 PM

Jose

Maybe some do not remember Jose Pegan--he was one of those difficult to get cards one year.

G-Man wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:47 PM

Doumitt drives in two runs.  ATTABABY!!

JAL wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:47 PM

That was when a 3 run homer was needed from Jones.

TJK33 wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:48 PM

3-0 PITCH!  WHY IS ADAM SWINGING???????????????

darylethepiratefan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:48 PM

BOTTOM OF THE 8TH LETS GO!!!!!

First pitch to AMAC fouled off 0-1, next pitch call strike, 0-2, O WOW, ROMO THE GIANT PITCHER IS HURT, ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN...Next pitch a slow roller to Renteria and Amac beats it out, LETS GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Freddy digs in and the pitch is low for a ball 1-0, Next pitch is a base hit for freddy , 2 runners on YESSSSSSSSSSSSS

PITCHING CHANGE YESSSSSSSSSSSSS

AFFELDT on to pitch to G Jones, first pitch to Jones and to his kness swinging and miss , 0-1, next pitch the same pitch in for a strike, 0-2, the pitch low for a ball 1-2,  next pitch hit slowly to first for the out and the runners advance , 1 out

Doumit come on steps in, takes low 1-0, next pitch a swing and a miss on a changeup, 1-1, next pitch a swing and a miss 1-2, Affeldt delivers and BAM A BASE HIT UP THE MIDDLE BOTH RUNS SCORED, YESSSSSSSS, SF 4 PIT 3, Runner on first

Adam Laroche steps in , first pitch High , 1-0, next pitch in tight ,2-0, affeldt delivers outside ball 3,3-0, next pitch adam swings and grounds into a dp , MY GOD GET HIM OUT OF HERE WOW, 3-0

Las Vegas Pirate Fan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:48 PM

You can't even count the 8 mil option for Sanchez.  He was NEVER going to get that.  The offer should be compared to what he is making NOW, which I believe is 6 mil.  Forget the option....forget it.  The offer is fair, I believe.  So is Wilson's....and I like both of these guys.   But that has nothing to do with what they are worth.

JAL wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:49 PM

G-man

That is what a clean up hitter is supposed to do--drive in runs.  Good to it happen.

TJK33 wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:50 PM

Jose:

The Pirates are looking to negotiate extensions - not just change the final year of their contracts.  Not sure where the renegotiation aspect comes into play.  

hwilson wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:52 PM

Just more b.s. from this management team.  They buoyed the hopes of the entire team and Pirate community with an announcement they never intended to pursue fairly.  I am certain nearly every player hates playing for this miserly organization.  Which one would not go someplace else if able???

Bizrow wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:53 PM

Nice pbp, Daryl, I can feel your passion as you do it.

Prediction, Mr Moss does not let us lose this one, provided Mr Veal does not play with matches this inning.

Is this the first time Veal was put in a spot where it means something?

Oops, just to one batter, nevermind....

joerevs300 wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:54 PM

I figured I'd pop my head out of the gopher hole long enough to post this:

Average 2009 salary of starting AL Shortstops:  $2.7M

Salary of Derek Jeter, NYY:  $21.3M

Orlando Cabrera, OAK ($4M):  .270/.355/.309 (AVG/SLG/OBP)

Derek Jeter, NYY ($21M):  .325/.462/.400

Jack Wilson:  .266/.393/.297

It would seem to this fan that $4M per year is right in line with not only what the average SS makes in MLB but also right in line with Wilson's production.  

Just for comparison's sake, here's the other starting SS in the NL Central:

JJ Hardy, MIL:  .232/.284/.300 ($4.6M)

Jerry Harriston Jr, CIN:  .253/.286/.309 ($2M)

Ryan Theirot, CHI:  .294/.423/.248 ($500K)

M.Tejada, HOU:  .329/.477/.358 ($14.8M)

B.Ryan, STL:  .283/.376/.321 ($403K)

Source for money figures:  sports.yahoo.com/.../news

Stats found at MLB.com

(dives back down into his gopher hole)

FormerSoxFan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:54 PM

How can you not include Freddy's option?  In all likelihood, he will reach 600 PAs and trigger the option.

Deadline wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:54 PM

The only person who would trade for LaRoche is Dave Littlefield. Face the music and release him.

JAL wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:54 PM

That is basic bad baseball--you do not swing 3-0 unless the pitch is in your wheelhouse --wonder if he was given a sign?

G-Man wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:54 PM

Not sure which is more mind boggling: Adam swinging at a 3-0 pitch for a double play or JR inserting Veal into a 1-run game. Heck, JR insterting Veal into ANY game that's not extra innings.

G-Man wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:56 PM

hwilson -

>>They buoyed the hopes of the entire team and Pirate community with an announcement they never intended to pursue fairly.<<

Not that I am even remotely defending the FO, but it has been documented repeatedly by DK that there was no announcement by the Pirates. The story came from an unnamed source.

Scott421 wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:58 PM

Who cares if the pirates sign Jack or Freddy?  Are you people trying to win or just see your "favorite' players?  Freddy is a nice offensive option for a slap hitter, but hes not worth 8 million and he is delusional to think so.  Jack is horrible offensivly but has a nice glove.  Rafeal Belliard and Jose Lind had great gloves as well

Scott421 wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:58 PM

Who cares if the pirates sign Jack or Freddy?  Are you people trying to win or just see your "favorite' players?  Freddy is a nice offensive option for a slap hitter, but hes not worth 8 million and he is delusional to think so.  Jack is horrible offensivly but has a nice glove.  Rafeal Belliard and Jose Lind had great gloves as well

socaldonn wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:59 PM

Jose,

Here's how I see the car analogy....

I want to buy the BMW at the dealership in Monroeville but they want $65K for it.  I see the same car at the dealership in Cranberry for $50K.  I want to buy the car in Monroeville.  The Monroeville dealer claims he wants me to buy the car there.   I offer the Monroeville dealer the $50K.  He can then counter-offer the car for $55K and I'll decide whether the convenience of buying the car there is worth the extra $5K.

The gamble is that the Monroeville dealer thinks someone will pay the $65K.  My gamble is that I end of losing the car and start over looking for another car more reasonably priced.

leadoff wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 4:00 PM

Irritates

If you don't think they low-balled Freddy Sanchez, you're not thinking clearly. He goes from eight million next year, to ten for two years.

_____________________________

We are thinking clearly, you are not, the burden of risk is on the FO, if something happens to Freddie this year before 600 Ab's Freddie does not get the 8 mil.

The Pirates are offering him guaranteed 5 mil a year for the next two years. Again the burden of risk is on the FO.  

When one thinks clearly one knows the value of what they are paying for, since you have not informed us of what Freddies true value is, you are not likely to convince anyone about low balling.

darylethepiratefan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 4:01 PM

TOP OF THE 9TH VEAL ON TO PITCH

First pitch to Izchiwaga 1-0, next pitch low 2-0,next pitch in for a strike 2-1, veal delivers and its fouled off 2-2, veal to the plate and a grounder up the middle and jack grabs and throws him out 1 away

Russell to the Mound for a Pitching Change, Meek on to pitch

Frandsen greets meek with a double down the rf line, great job JR,

Freddy Lewis takes strike 1, 0-1, next pitch strike called , 0-2, veal delivers and a swing and a miss , strike 3 2 down

Rowand steps in runner on 2nd,  first pitch ball high, 1-0, next pitch rowand checks his swing , 1-1, meek delivers a hanger and rowand swings and misses, 0-2, next pitch outside 2-2, next pitch low 3-2,  next pitch fouled off , meek delivers and strike 3 ,

SF 4 PIT 3

Deadline wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 4:01 PM

Veal in 2010 is to Veal in 2009 as Meek in 2009 to Meek in 2008. Veal is going to be very good and the bucs have done an outstanding job of developing him.

G-Man wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 4:04 PM

socaldonn -

>>My gamble is that I end of losing the [BMW] and start over looking for another car more reasonably priced.<<

The unfortunate part is you might end up with a Hyundai.

JAL wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 4:04 PM

Need 1 more run--better yet how about 2--more likely 1-2-3

STLRFANRC wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 4:06 PM

Adam is not a good enough hitter, to be swinging at 3-0..unless, JAL, like you said...its in the wheel house and quit frankly, this late in the ball game, i dont care if its on a tee

Las Vegas Pirate Fan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 4:09 PM

Soxfan,

The reason why the 8 mil option is mute is because it will never be excersized.  It would be bought out for like 600k, if it came to that.  These were not low ball offers; they are fair in this market.

stegmasterj wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 4:09 PM

Either they're trying to make the fans think they're making the effort to put out a good product or they actually think Freddy and Jack would accept a ridiculous offer like that.  I would hope that if F&J wanted to actually stay with the Pirates they'd make a counteroffer and give the Pirates a discount, but a realistic discount for them and the Pirates.  

check it out:

pittsburghsportsbuzz.blogspot.com

STLRFANRC wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 4:10 PM

i like what meeks been doing.....

darylethepiratefan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 4:10 PM

BOTTOM OF THE 9TH

Moss grounds weakly to 1b , 1 down

Andy Laroche steps in  takes a ball, 1-0,next pitch low , 2-0, come on , wilson delivers ball 3, 3-0, next pitch a called strike 3-1,next pitch in there for a strike call , 3-2, , great ab ball 4

OMG!!!!!VASQUEZ ON TO HIT , WHY??????

First pitch to Vasquez hits a little flare to ss, why dont they take a pitch, selfish sob 2 out

D young in the box and takes ball 1, next pitch swung and fouled off , 97mph, 1-1, next pitch heater in there for strike 2, 1-2, next pitched 100mph and a protect swing, fouled off, 1-2, next pitched fouled off 1-2, wilson comes set and what do you know , strike 3 swinging...

GAME OVER

JAL wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 4:14 PM

ants marching===============================================

STLRFANRC wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 4:16 PM

not a bad effort....daryle thanks for the PBP.

JAL wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 4:16 PM

Las Vegas

Nope--if he reaches 600 AB the option is automatic.  If he fails to reach 600 the Pirates can either exercise the option or buy it out for 600K

Las Vegas Pirate Fan wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 4:17 PM

stegmasterj,

Get your facts straight on your site.  

Freddy is not guaranteed 8 mil in 2010.

Jack will not get above average money as a free agent shortstop.

socaldonn wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 4:21 PM

G-man,

At the prices being discussed, I think I can still get a pretty nice, functional ride and have enough left over to maybe buy  a used car for the kids.  ;-)

daquido_bazzini wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 4:42 PM

All the quotes today from Huntington regarding the Wilson/Sanchez "negotiations" are just complete garbage.

He's talking through places I don't even want to describe.

Let's just get it over with and trade them both for a few lifetime A-ballers.

Pmann wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 5:08 PM

Sanchez, a former batting champion, who consistently hits around .300 when he is healthy is not going to fair much better on the free agent market this winter?  What has NH been smoking?  The offer to Sanchez is not something to take seriously. Since Wilson is insisting that Sanchez be resigned, the Pirates offer to him should not be taken seriously either. Wilson will not stay if Sanchez leaves, and the Pirates know it.  It is pretty easy to see through the organization’s PR smokescreen here.  

I wonder how much the Nutting’s will make this year?  Is it 2 million?  Is it 4 million?  Is it more?  It is good to know that publicly funded PNC Park has been such a good investment for the Pirates’ organization, allowing the Nuttings to pilfer millions off the backs of Pittsburgh area taxpayers.  

KSUPITT wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 5:13 PM

I wasnt sure what NH was referring to when he called himself an idiot for paying Freddy 6mill this year.  I think that is a very reasonable salary for a player of Sanchez's caliber.  

8mill is high for a 2nd baseman that doesnt hit for power but NH made that deal.  It seems to me that the PBC treats the contracts they sign like toilet paper.  Needless to say I will be very happy when Freddy makes his 600 PA.

Pmann wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 5:17 PM

Does anyone know if NH has an incentive clause in his contract for reducing salary like DL had?  I have asked this question to FC on the MLB live chats several times, but oddly enough he never responds.  If true, I wonder how much of a bonus NH will get this year?  Sounds like steak and lobster for the FO Christmas dinner again this year:-)  

PiratesFanSince1960 wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 5:17 PM

SO WHAT!!! Management must think the fans, wilson, sanchez, their financial advisors, agents are stupid. Sorry Pirates FO and management LOOK INTO THE MIRROR. You are the fools, you are the ones stumbling over yourselves to fake us out. Just another scam, another shameful page of a poorly run business called the PITTSBURGH PIRATES.

We should be building around players like this. Instead we are running them out of town. If they have any brains, and they do. Wilson and Sanchez go to a team that needs them, and has playoff and or world series potential.

THE PIRATES DO NOT and with current management its just another string of embarassments and actions by the Nuthouse gang.

David

Sammy Khalifa wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 5:29 PM

Coming to this string late, but ...

With respect, I can't agree with DK that the headline is accurate.  There is a huge difference between making an offer with a deadline, and "pulling back" an offer.  When the deadline passes, the offer is no longer valid.  It expires.  That is completely different than someone making an offer, and while it is valid and before you have a chance to respond to it, the offeror takes the offer off the table i.e. "pulls it back."  

So when I read the headline, I had a completely different impression than when I read the story and understood that the offer had a short shelf life and simply expired before either Jack or Freddie's agent responded.  

On another topic, I was more disappointed in Tom Watson on the 18th hole than the Bucs losing today.  TW was that close from making history.  Another Bucs loss ... ah well.

I've been in NH's corner, but all the above having been said, ya just know that Steinbrenner woulda signed both to an extension and if it didn't work out, cut 'em in the blink of an eye.  It's a bummer being a Pirate fan in this league.

Jimbo Slice wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 5:53 PM

A quick message to Jack and Freddy...

Don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split you.  You're both terribly overpaid, and FOOLS for rejecting (as ESPN is reporting) these offers.  Good luck making half of your current salary in the free agent market next year.  Jack is going to get a $1M  for 1 year Adam Everett type of contract.  Freddy will be lucky to make $3M and will not get a deal for more than 2 years.  

Pmann wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 6:02 PM

I wonder if it is possible for the city or some other entity to sue the Pirate organization, since PNC Park is a publicly funded facility.  Doesn’t it breach the public trust and therefore, constitute fraud when an organization follows a formula designed to benefit private interest only at the public’s expense (i.e., using public tax dollars). I know I sound naive, but maybe there is something to it.  I mean we know with DL there was an incentive clause to reduce salary.  Maybe if the Nuttings open up their books to the public.  If the organization is making a god faith effort to win and compete in a small market city, what does it have to hide?  My hunch is PLENTY.

Pmann wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 6:23 PM

“A year ago, I was an idiot for extending Freddy for $6 million. And now, I'm an idiot for not being willing to give him a heck of a lot more than that.”

Yes, NH, you were an idiot in both cases.  You should have signed Freddy to a long-term deal that extended into free agency.  Based on years of service, you most likely would have been able to sign Sanchez to less money last year in return for a long-term deal that ramped up his salary based on years of service and player productivity statistical indicators over time. Failing to recognize this point makes you an imbecile, not an idiot.  Idiot status would be a step up in this case.

JimmyO wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 7:38 PM

Why would Sanchez give up $8 million next year for a 2 year contract of $10 million?  He'll get his 600 at bats and even if Sanchez took NH contract extension, doesn't the MLB union reps have to OK it, which would never happen.

Besides a lower contract offer would just make Sanchez easier to trade, which is probably NH other plan if he accepts.

Ask NH to take 1/2 his salary next year, with a little raise in 2011 if hes still here.

gerardsmith wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 7:57 PM

Freddy and Jack shall not be back/////they've turned a deaf ear and leave without fear/////but how to replace the aplomb and the grace/////of freddy and jack who never held back?

Kraig wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 8:03 PM

The liars are at it again. Barely 2 days and lame offers equal: "We've made a quick attempt to sign players for what we feel works for us."

Quick attempt huh Opie and Coondog?

Well, the players declined and now the frugal regime can at least claim that 'they tried.' I hope I speak for others when and if they sign Sano I will again believe. If not, I am done.

JimmyO wrote re: Offers for Wilson, Sanchez pulled back
on Sun, Jul 19 2009 11:08 PM

Signing Sano will never happen, if hes that good don't you think the Yankees or Red Soxs would sign him!