Pirates vs. Giants, 7-18-09: Back again

Let us hope Zito pitches as poorly as he has been lately.

So LH Zito --DY replaces Moss most likely change

(from your post last thread...)

Thanks JAL.  I'm out.

                              THE PEPPER SHAKER

What's Zito's ERA? If it's low, we've got a chance! If it's high, we'll make him look like a Cy Young pitcher again.

Drewer,  thanks,  I would have to say it is a compliment to know you can draw a laugh when it is unclear what was said.  

dont be surprised if Garret Jones is out of the lineup also...Zito is nasty..High ERA, sick curveball, BP fastball.  

I dont know the stats, but im willing to bet that he's lights out against lefties.

@NuHo,

Sorry but had to step out for a while.  If I can continue the war analogy...

The mistakes of the past (bad drafting and development) are exactly that, mistakes of the past.  New blood and new talents in the FO have proven to be successful for the most part thus the optimism that the new leadership will right the ship.  

The small battles that we need to win are those of scouting thoroughly, drafting wisely and developing consistently.  I hate to keep dragging out the same examples but organizations like Minnesota, Milwaukee and Tampa provide me hope because it has worked for them, and others, and I feel that the current FO team has shown their smarts on multiple occassions.

You seem to be asking the FO to enter into battles that they can't possibly win.  The bad guys have more bullets, planes, tanks and bombs.  The Howard Baldwin school of ownership can't work here.  Not without a cap.

Maybe I'm naive.  I definitely tend to look at the Bucs future as a glass half full rather than half empty.

But I have to ask, how long have you been a hostage?  Is your hatred of BN clouding your objectivity?  I'm hoping the Stockholm Syndrome will kick in at some point.  Embrace your hostage taker, NuHo, and trust in Neal.  

;-)

Zito ERA 5.09....record 5-9.....oh boy..

also, im glad i didnt bet, but there are far fewer AB's (97)against lefties, but they are batting 279, as apposed to Righty's batting 259, but they have over 300 AB's against him

sorry, era 5.01....

Zito 5-9 5.01 ERA 1.4 WHIP 9 H/9  13 HR allowed Righties hit .252 off him, lefties hit .278.  86 mph average fastball.

Sounds to me like the Pirates will bench all the lefties and lose 3-0 tonight.

Yeah, JAL was right.  DY replaces Moss in right, no other changes.  Moss and DY are pretty much a straight platoon at this point, so no big surprise.

Jones vs LHP this year...6-21 with 4 HR.

This is a decent lineup except for the AUTOMATIC OUT in the 5 spot.  Why is he still playing? There is no use to market him for the trade deadline since no one wants a 230 hitter with very minimal power. Put LaRoche in the 8 spot since he couldnt fall out of a boat and hit water.

DK,

What is the morale in the clubhouse like given the lowball offers by the Front Office to Jack and Fred?

@socaldonn: Perfectly said. I think things are going in the right direction--slowly I will admit, but FASTER than I thought possible. We have some (not a lot) options up and down the minors. We basically had ZERO last year.

The morale in the locker room is fine...These are paid a lot of money winner or lose

We will see very soon how good of a hitter Jones really is...  now that teams have started to see what he can do you can imagine he's going to start getting junk to hit with Doumit and Laroche hitting behind him.  Who would be dumb enough to continue to pitch to him with those 2 out machines behind him.  

FSF

Yeah, JAL was right.  DY replaces Moss in right, no other changes.  Moss and DY are pretty much a straight platoon at this point, so no big surprise.

____________________________

What happens when Milledge gets here?

TJK

Who would be dumb enough to continue to pitch to him with those 2 out machines behind him.  

__________________________

I was wondering that myself, my wife who knows very little about baseball and could care less,  came up with "why did they pitch to him last night" when he was probably the only Pirate that was going to beat them with the long ball.

@leadoff: Milledge will be a starting OF. DY and BM will be bench players (though DY could end up at 2B and even Moss could end up at 1B).

Eight

Milledge will be a starting OF. DY and BM will be bench players (though DY could end up at 2B and even Moss could end up at 1B).

_____________________________

Jones is a first basemen. Could be a lot has to do with possible trades.

@Leadoff - re - Milledge

My bet is Adam is traded, Jones goes to first, Blastings takes over left, platoon in RF

I know things change, but its interesting that earlier in the year JR said Moss was the starting RF

Anyone hear how long Freddy and JW have to make a deal with PBC?

Scott421...I resent, and I bet the players would too, that remark.  IMO, they care very much if they win or lose.  Yes, they get paid well but they're all competetive guys.  I refer you to the the dugout shots of Doumit and Jones after they lost the game in Philly the Saturday before the break.  NO WAY do they NOT care about winning or losing.  Sorry.

@All...

YAY!  We played Zito well last year, if I recall correctly.  I wish DY had played last night when I was sitting on the RF line, but oh well.  Anyone one notice that they won wearing the alternate jerseys that thus far have been not so lucky?  

RE:  Adam LaRoche...he may be cold at the plate but he did make some outstanding plays in the field.  For those of you who don't think defense is important, replace our entire infield with bench players and see what happens--I'll go run and hide under the bed that night.  Our defense, on the whole, rocked last night...that error by Freddy aside.  

It's not very nice of Mother Nature to give the GIants SF-like weather though.  It's supposed to be warm and humid here in July, not cool.  WTH!  Except for there was no bone-chilling wind, I was having flashbacks to games I spent at Candlestick as a child.  And yes, I had long sleeves on.  

I told my buddy after the game--if we had Jones in at 1st, he may not have hit the 2nd shot as the game could've been over w/o a few nice stabs at 1st by AdLa. I certainly can't defend his atrocious hitting, but maybe this is a small tally for why D matters, even in baseball.

"What happens when Milledge gets here?"

@ LEADOFF, I expect Milledge will be the everyday LF, i am sure they are @ least shopping Adam with the expectation that Jones is the everyday 1b

and the platoon continues

Can't tell the posters apart without  avatars (which instructions for are available by clicking on mine) but one wondered about Adam--read Dejans story on last night's game or what Rich Donnelly said above--without Adam at first they probably lose last night--sometimes players contribute with more than their bat.

         Tonight in addition to hoping " the whammer" {garrett} continues his streak i will be watching Andrew closely as it appears he has hit his rookie wall

DK, you are baseball writing genius!!!  You hit the nail right on the head.....either that or you want to toot your own horn that rich donnelly agreed with you....i still the first part..nice article.

can we get a 2b for adam?

Adam LaRoche is a VERY good defensive 1B. I didn't see Jones in Spring Training this year, so I don't know how he stacks up. I would guess that he should be decent since an outfielder as athletic as he is can normally play first pretty well.

Can anyone comment that saw him at first in ST?

.......and i agree with beasley's thinking....sometimes you have to take chances.....

I dont think anyone ever questioned Adam's defensive skills.....he's got that..unfortunetly, he hits like a old school SS.

"wondered about Adam--read Dejans story on last night's game or what Rich Donnelly said above--without Adam at first they probably lose last night--sometimes players contribute with more than their bat."

@JAL, I have came around on Adam because i now realize what he is, a valuable complimentary player. Of course our issue has been we have needed him to be more than that and i believe he has fell short of the original lofty expectations most had for him.

Can't trade a player unless someone wants him.  Good size contract and FA at end of year is not an attractive commodity to many teams.

STLRFANRC  

I agree too--if takes perfect execution to get you and you know runs are scarce you take the chance.  

Just giving your "Props" DK...i really dont know what that means, but i know thats what all the cool kids say....

keep up the good work

maybe since adam likes pitching so much, we should give him a chance at it...since he hits like one...HA

Sorry about asking - Anyone hear how long Freddy and JW have to make a deal with PBC?

I reread the paper, and DK said a  couple of days, I hope DK never files for free agency  ; }

I was at the game last night so I didn't hear any radio or tv announcing.

Did Rich Donnelly coach first base last night?  If so, does anyone know why?

MarkinDallas: I saw two games in Spring Training.  Jones played first in at least one--and I think both.  My impression was that he looked like he knew what he was doing there, and he seemed very athletic for a giant of a man.   I payed attention because I was wondering if we had an alternative or replacement in house for Adam Laroche (besides Pearce).  Because I figured there was a very good chance Laroche wouldn't resign or be traded.

Which one is better of the 2 players stats you see below?

Andy LaRoche 85 295 40 78 16 4 4 114 34 28 50 2 0 .264 .338 .386 .725

Brandon Moss  73 223 29 57 15 2 3 85 23 16 43 0 2 .256 .314 .381 .695

You can see that the last 4 percentages of each are ba, obp, slg and OPS. Look at the number of HR's, and RBI's and each is approximately 3/4 in LaRoche's favor but then you look at AB's and Moss only has 3/4 of LaRoches ab's which makes that dead even. Now consider this, LaRoche has been trotted out there every day no matter what the situation while Moss frequently gets pulled for 2-3 games at a time and can't develop a rhythm and a lot more of his AB's are as a pinch hitter which is much more difficult. I think anyone would consider them both slightly above average defensively with equal speed. One plays a corner outfield spot and one plays a corner infield spot where power numbers should be almost identical. Here is the hilarious part, in all the future lineups I see on this thread LaRoche is the 3rd baseman and Moss is lucky to even be a reserve. Others suggest putting him on waivers. I have yet to hear a valid argument as to why this disparity. And there can't be any of this nonsense about how we gave up a valuable asset in Bay for Andy so he deserves the chance to show what he can do, Moss came over in the same trade.

anyone going to the game?

i wish, i hear its fireworks night so it should be a good show with a baseball game....ha ha

pghboyinca,

Interesting comparison of stats.  I too think Moss should get more consistent playing time.  But you also have to take into consideration what your eyes see.  At times Moss has looked totally lost.  LaRoche has looked pretty good , and consistent, almost the whole year.

1B Laroche did make some great plays last night and has been sharp defensively all year, the problem for the pirates is that he is a corner infielder who hits like my grandmother and we are paying him a ton of money.  Unfortunately, it looks like we are going to eat that contract the rest of the season as nobody in their right might will accept him in a trade.  It would be great if we had some other commodity that we could package 1B Laroche with and send him elsewhere, but given the few commodities on this team...

PGH BOY IN CA

I ahve been on that bandwagon since its inception.  Play Moss everyday.  he is hitting the ball hard, playinf less lenghtens the time for the stats to correct themselves and some of those start falling in or going out.

Either way, he was acquired to play not to be the bat boy.

So far, I would say the biggest question mark I have on the teams handling next to leaving an obvious dead arm on the mound.

the defensive abilities have something to do with the more playing time as well and also, who else are you gonna put at 3B?  Vasquez?

DK,

Is there anything wrong with Perry Hill? I saw Rich Donnelly coaching at first base last night.

here's a question though:

what do you do when one player (moss) pretty much stinks it up at the plate, but plays ok defense and another player (DY) is hitting the ball well, but stinks it up in the OF/IN and pretty much anywhere you put him?

go with the stick and hope Cutch helps him??

i dunno....

interesting promotion.....any chance of seeing our future all-stars, Alverez, Tabata, Gorkys in Indy by the end of the season?  

There is no Andy v. Brandon in playing time comparison. The comparison is Brandon v. Young. Moss is getting playing time - but Moss and Young are basically in a try-out. The question is - can Brandon better his pitch recognition before Young can improve his defense? Brandon is doing a better job..but Young seems to be improving as well... so we'll see.

Re: Perry Hill

I think the announcers said it was a travel complication--he's fine.

I'm confused by the Adam LaRoche for Gold Glove campaign here...   Is this a way to put into perspective while Jones was great he wouldn't have had the chance to be if LaRoche hadn't saved the game with his glove?  

Can't we spin it the other way and say if LaRoche would actually do what he's paid to do and hit the ball that Jones wouldn't have needed to account for the only 2 runs?  

State College is 6 wins away from topping last year's total.They were 18-56 in 2008 and are 13-15 this year.Big improvement.OK now you can tear them down and find bad things to say.I need to work on my quota of 20 posts anyway.There are more members of the "clique' that are way behind also.

@Yotum...Thanks for the info on hill.  I also was at the game and noticed Hill's absence.  Glad to hear it's nothing more than travel stuff...Goodness knows I know about that.  :-)

DY has been playing better in the OF...he looks a lot more comfortable.  

Not going tonight, JJ.  I'll be here for PBP, if anyone still wants me to do so.  :-)

Thundercrack and STLRFANRC,  

 I'll address each one specifically.

  TC-You have to address this with your eyes and LaRoche ahs been more consistent? My eyes tell me they are almost the same player, with more consistent playing time you should be less streaky. And as far as LaRoche being more consistent.....would you be referring to the o-19 way he started , the blistering .310 for 45 days following or the .220 since then?????

  STLRFANRC- They are a wash defensively, Moss is a good defensive player. Your second point is great. I have finally heard someone  someone tell the truth, he is playing so much because there is no other option.

So are the offers to Sanchez and Wilson "low-ball" offers? How can we find out?

I've already said I believe the offers would be calculated from what other teams have offered in trade. This shows how much those teams value Freddy and Jack and how much they would help those clubs above what they already have.

Let's look at Freddy specifically, since he seems to be the one most people think could get more money in free agency.

--------------------

Second Basemen FA who signed last offseason:

player                | age | 2009 salary | 2008 AVG | OBP   | SLG   | OPS

Jamey Carroll    |  35  | $2,500,000 |      0.277    | 0.355 | 0.346 | 0.701

Orlando Hudson|  31  | $3,364,877 |      0.305    | 0.367 | 0.450 | 0.817

Felipe Lopez      |  29  | $3,500,000 |      0.283    | 0.343 | 0.387 | 0.730

So, Orlando Hudson, who made the All-Star team as Freddy did, signed a free agent contract with the Dodgers this past offseason which pays him $3.36M this year.

Is Freddy Sanchez worth more than Orlando Hudson? I would say yes. But how much? More than $1.6M more?

Factor in the fact of the economy and that many teams are looking at falling attendance, revenue and an unsure economy...can we really say this was a LOW-BALL offer? Is it not possible that Huntington is telling the truth when he thinks this is about what Freddy might get on the open market?

Personally, I think Freddy might get a little more. But not a lot more to have this be called a low ball offer.

I'm not sold Freddie or Jack is getting low balled.  They are likely being asked to do the same thing as 90% of Americans are being asked to do...  take a PAYCUT.  

pghboyinca

Moss and Andy may have similar numbers, but the Pirates outfield is more crowded than the infield this year.  There really is not much option beyond Andy at third base.  

My eyes tell me that Andy LaRoche doesn't go thru the same spells that Moss does in regards to looking totally lost at the plate.

Pghboyinca I agree with you about wanting to see more of Moss.

And if they played the same position maybe there would be more of an argument.  

re: Jones as 1B - Can't remember when the article was (or did I hear it on a broadcast?) but Jones was asked about moving well for a big guy.  He said it came from being a power forward playing high school basketball.  He did a lot of work on footwork to get the coordination and body control.  Probably a big asset at 1st base as well.  Add in ST with Perry Hill next year, and he could be pretty solid there (maybe not quite as strong as Adam this year, but not a major drop either).

On Moss-

I don't know why so many are apt to thinking this guy deserves more of a chance.  To me, he is not showing nearly enough power potential to eventually become anything better than a 4th outfielder.

As Dennis Miller says though, of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong...

Mark,

I would agree based on first glance.  I think we can say with  certainty that NH knows what fair market value is for both players.  I would also assume his initial offer is just that, an initial offer thus lower than that value, and he will negotiate from there.    

I would also agree that Sanchez needs to face the reality of the marketplace and take additional term in exchange for a reduction of the $8M if he is sincere about wanting to stay in Pittsburgh.  If it's all about getting the most he can get no matter what the location, then he'll take the $8M and test the FA waters.   Obviously there's risk on both sides.

Time will tell who is the better poker player.

@diehard

Reviewing Garrett Jones' minor league statistics today, he's looged over 750 games at first base throughout his career, and while he has 76 errors in that time he hasn't had more than 8 errors in a season since 2005, when he had 12.  I'm really interested in seeing him at first base.

@Dan,

I can't speak for others but over his short career he's only receive the equivalent of one full season's worth of ABs. and is still young.   I want to see him play a lot so we can see if he'll develop into the player that many think he can be.  He showed power in the minors and reports I've seen projected him to be a 15-20 HR guy.  I think the only way for him to do that is to play.

That's just me.....

@TJK...Sorry if I like the way Adam plays 1B.  I think I said he's been cold at the plate, but you can't completely discount the defensive skills he brings either, IMO.

@socaldonn

I totally understand your point, and it's quite possible that Moss will become that 15-20 home run guy.  I like his 15 doubles (albeit he had the same number last year in just a handful more games) but I'm just not seeing the "flashes."  

I'm rooting for the guy, but he'd better get going in a hurry if he wants to hold off Lastings Milledge and eventually Jose Tabata.  Heck, right now he's losing the race against Delwyn Young.

Good evening inmates near and far. Yes, Dmac, we love the pbp.  If Pirates radio continues to interupt their "broadcast" with inning long interviews then your work is even more appreciated.  Lugo was cut by the Red Sox yesterday.  I hope that the Bucs are not considering him as a fall back position if Jack doesn't sign, he's a terrible player. Go Bucs.

Socaldonn

How long would you let the Moss experiment go on before we can conclude that he only hits for power in the minors?  I'm not a Moss hater, but I disagree that he should be anything more than a platoon player right now.  If he shows signs of power or even signs of life at the plate, then Russell should reward him with more playing time.  

@RadioWave...I understand how frustrating that is.

So, PBP will be here, when the game starts.  I hope I get to do lots of "WOOHOO's" tonight.  *grin*

One more thing on Freddy...

Freddy's option of $8M automatically occurs if he gets 600 plate appearances this year. Up to now, the media has been saying that it's likely that would happen, so this new contract would amount to him losing $3M.

But how likely IS IT?

Freddy only 1 time in his career has gone over 600 PAs, and that was when he had 602.

Right now he has 321 PAs in 78 games played for a 4.1 PAs/game average. The Pirates have 73 games left, which means if Sanchez played ALL of them, he would get about 621 PAs. But, so far he has not played in 11 of the Pirates' 89 games.

If Freddy is rested or misses only 5 or 6 games the rest of the way - by the Pirates OR his new team if the Pirates trade him, he will NOT reach 600 PAs, and therefore his $8M option can be bought out for $600K.

Conclusion: Freddy will NOT be guaranteed $8M next year and WILL be a free agent if he does not sign with the Pirates. The $8M figure is just a fantasy, and he and his agent know that it will NEVER happen.

Actually, Mark, you're referring only to his at-bats, not his total plate appearances, which are different. Plate appearances includes any time he's gone to the plate, among them walks, hit-by-pitches, or sacrifice flies/bunts. Sanchez actually has 348 plate appearances.

You might still be right that Sanchez won't reach 600, especially if he gets hurt again, but your numbers are off a bit.

@DMac

Do you pay a 1B for his defense or his offense?  A 7mil defensive 1B?  I remember the headlines when they traded for him...  "Pirates acquire defensive 1B".  Maybe thats why I'm so disappointed... I thought we were getting a HR hitter when actually we were getting a defensive wizard.  Why not just bring back Doug M for a mil.  

I don't see anything about Adam at 1B that I don't see out of most others around the league.  

Markln

You mixed two stats--Freddy has only one year of AB s over 600 but he had 632 PA in 2006,  653 PAs in 2007, and 608 last season.  He has 348 this year.

TJK...where in there did I say I wasn't disappointed with his offensive output?  I don't think I actually disagreed with you, I was just pointing out that I thought his defense added to the wins and losses too.  

TJK - You're not going to find a lot of supporters for the way Adam is hitting right now, but if you're seeing the same level of fielding from every other first basemen in the league, you're not looking closely enough.  Perry Hill (who has coached gold glove infielders at every position) has recently said that the only glove on par with Adam's this year is Derek Lee.  It would be nice to seeing the bat to go with it.

Dejan

Great picture-- thanks

If I were the FO and was dealing with Freddy here is what I would do.

1. Get the average pay to 2nd baseman in the league.

2. Offer 500,000 to 1 mil more per year for 2 years plus an option.

Does anyone thinks Freddy will be here after two years?  I don't.  It's a decent offer in today's market. If he does not sign then start playing Young (since they are in love with him) at second (Platoon him with Freddy).  Let Moss play and see if he stays, goes or ends up as a bench player. With Mill, Tab and others starting to work their way up we have replacements. If Young can't play second now or in the future he should be nothing but a bench player in the years to come if Moss works out or not. So get him time at second.  If the players union does not like it tough!  This team is building and needs to see what we have in Young or Heaven forbid Cruz so let's find out before Freddy is gone.

"Do you pay a 1B for his defense or his offense?"  Sorry - I meant to answer that simply as well.  You pay him to do both, as you do to some extent for every player.  Paying players (other than a DH) only for offense is only applicable to fantasy baseball.

DY with a great play in right!

YAY!  Game time!

Pirates have taken the field.

Winn steps in, Morton deals and Winn takes low, ball 1.  Takes and it catches the outside corner, 1-1 count.  Fouled away, 1-2.  Grounded to the left side...NICE PLAY ANDY!  He makes a diving stop, takes a minute to get is feet set but makes the throw in time to get Winn at 1st.  1 away.

Bowker takes, strike 1.  Takes and it misses, 1-1.  Swings and misses, 1-2 count.  Drilled to CF...AMac goes back and makes the catch.  2 away.  

Sandoval fouls the first pitch away, 0-1.  Inside, 1-1 count.  Fouled away, 1-2.  Fouled away.  WOOHOO!  NICE PLAY DY!  Fly ball to RF and DY makes a GREAT diving play to make the catch.  Side retired.   SWEET!

Nothing going for the Giants, Pirates coming to bat.

Good point on the PAs vs ABs - I can't believe I made that mistake. :) That definitely could change things.

Thanks, diehard.  You made the point I was trying to, but unable to.  

@diehard wrote re: Pirates vs. Giants, 7-18-09: First pitch 7:15

on Jul 18, 2009 7:18 PM

"Do you pay a 1B for his defense or his offense?"  Sorry - I meant to answer that simply as well.  You pay him to do both, as you do to some extent for every player.  Paying players (other than a DH) only for offense is only applicable to fantasy baseball.

_____________

Or the American league

Let's see if Zito can break 90 on the radar.

Marklon--happens to everyone--so many stats so easy to confuse

Maybe Zito sends a message by brushing back Jones with that 83 mph heater.

Anytime DMac!

Two things I thought I would never see in one play--DY and great catch

Indeed, Mark. Now Sanchez's PA average is 4.46 per game. He needs only 252 PAs to reach 600. Were he to play in all 73 games, he'd get ~325 from those games. By my math, he needs to appear in only about 55-60 games at that pace to hit 600.

The way he is currently hitting, could we say the Jones is hitting .327 w/RISP, as the batter's box seems to be in scoring position when he hits?

          For all you anti DY guys if you beat him over the head when he screws up its only fair to praise when he does well, he did well on that catch in RF

AMac leads off and takes low, ball 1.  Fouled off, 1-1.  And he shoots a single up the middle.  Nice way to start the game.

Freddy fouls the first pitch away, 0-1.  Throw to 1st.  Fouled away, 0-2.  Slow roller to SS...Throw to 2nd gets AMac for 1, but Freddy beats the throw to 1st.  1 away.

Jones takes outside, 1-0.  Fouled to the right, 1-1.  Fly ball to LF...it goes out of play, 1-2 count.  Misses outside, 2-2.  Lined to the LF corner for a double.  Freddy holds at 3rd.

RUnners at 2nd and 3rd, 1 away.

Doumit looks at a called strike, 0-1.  FOuled away, 0-2.  In th dirt, 1-2.  Fly ball to LF.  Freddy tags and scores. RBI Sac Fly for Ryan.  2 away.

Adam takes a strike on the outside corner, 0-1.  WAY inside, 1-1.  Misses low, 2-1.  Catches the outside corner, 2-2 count.  Misses outside and the coung goes full, 3-2.  FLy ball to RF...Schierholz makes the catch to retire the side.

Pirates take the lead, 1-0, after 1.

Sorry.  I agree you pay a 1B for both...  but your not getting both from the guy so essentially your paying 7mil for a defensive 1B.  And now we bring up Derek Jeter in the defensive terms as Adam?  Really?  

C'mon...  you mean to tell me Ryan Howard and Prince Fielder are being paid for their offense and defense?  

(After defending the defender's glove) - I almost leapt out of my skin.  3-2 pitch, 2 outs, and Adam made contact!  Got my hopes up for a minute there.

So we have that, a great catch by DY, a Jones XBH with a man on - and we're only done with one inning.  It's going to be an interesting night - lots of things we haven't seen!

Given Ad. Laroche's current 2 for 34 malaise (or worse), maybe he should drop in the order to 7th instead of batting 5th every night.

@Dan,

Yeah, I hear you but what a nice problem to have if Moss is your fourth guy.

@mlaser,

if up to me he would be playing just about every day for the remainder of the season.  I would want to have the largest possible sampling on him so I could accurately assess.  They may have already made up their minds  but it just seems to me that fewer than 400 at bats doesn't give me enough of a look especially given the age.

Two out walk once again screws up the quick inning.

DMac, when did you ever think you would do a woo hoo  for a defensive play by DY?

And your "woo Hoo's sound good on this talking computer.

@Macs - How's it going pal?  I agree about giving Young credit when credit is due.  I'm one of the guys who blasts Young for mistakes.  But man, that catch in right field was... un-Younglike.  He really looked confident with that dive.

TJ - Derek Lee, not Jeter.

Walk anytime bad but a 2 out walk --ugh!

Schierholtz leads off and grounds to Freddy, throw to Adam, 1 away.

Ishikawa takes ball 1.  Takes and it catches the outside corner, 1-1.  Fouled off, 1-2.  Misses up and in, 2-2 count.  Fouled off his foot, still 2-2.  Swing and miss, strike 3.  2 away.

Uribe takes inside, 1-0.  Misses down, 2-0.  Misses low again, 3-0.  And he draws the walk on 4 straight pitches.  

Renteria takes ball 1.  Takes and it catches the outside corner, 1-1 count.  Outside, 2-1.  Grounded toward 3rd on the INF grass.  Andy charges and tries to barehand it, but can't come up with it.  INF hit for Renteria.

2 on, 2 away.

Whiteside takes inside, ball 1.  Misses again, 2-0.

Kerrigan comes out to talk to Charlie.

Next pitch to Whiteside is fouled away, 2-1.  Just misses inside, 3-1.  Catches the outside corner, 3-2.  Grounded to 3rd, Andy to Adam.  Side retired.

RadioWave...DY's been doing better out there.  I've got faith.  ;-)

Speak of the Devil, DY leads off and takes inside, ball 1.  Swings and misses, 1-1.  Catches the inside of the plate, 1-2.  Fouled off, still 1-2.  Upstairs, 2-2.  Lines to LF, but Bowker is there to make the catch.  1 away.

Andy grounds to 3rd, throw to 1st. 2 away.

(Walkie knows it's Kung Fu Panda, not Kung Phooey, right?...for Sandoval, I mean)  

Jack takes, strike 1.  Popped up in foul territory near the plate.  Whiteside makes the catch for the 3rd out.

After 2, still 1-0 Pirates.

Diehard

Maybe all Derek's look alike :)  Just like all non-avatar posters look alike

Morton at 34 pitches through 2  Zito at 30

The Pirates fans deserve a winner, they are a loyal bunch and have put up with rebuilding ever since Bonds left.

thefairball.com/.../the-pittsburgh-pirates-owe-the-fans

Charlie needs to find the plate.  

Now that is really bad--walk the opposing pitcher--and leading off the inning

@ GGG, Hey brother im back from an extended break and i just thought  i would stir things up :)   leave it up to you to be a gentleman about dy  DOO GOODER :)

                    Fred Rogers Gentleman hand shake

Zito takes ball 1.  Misses, 2-0.  Misses low, 3-0.  In there, 3-1 count.   Catches outside corner, 3-2.  Misses ball 4.  Zito draws the leadoff walk.

Winn takes a strike on the outside, 0-1.  Misses inside, 1-1.  Fouled away, 1-2.  Misses down and in, 2-2 count.  Grounded to Freddy, he has problems getting the ball out of his glove...gets the throw to Jack covering the bag for 1, but that's it.  1 away, runner at 1st.

Bowker takes way outside, 1-0.  Catches the inside corner, 1-1 count.  Misses outside, 2-1.  Swings and misses, 2-2 count.  And he swings and misses, strike 3.  2 away.

Sandoval Grounded up the middle, Jack fields and steps on the 2B bag for the force.  That's 3.

  Any more LaRoche brothers we could trade for?  Just love to watch them bat, only surpassed by their speed on the bases. Garret Jones again integral in our only offense so far, if this guy get shurt do we actually still have to bat or will we automatically get assigned no runs each inning?

We need to focus more on the fact, if Young will be an outfielder on this team or not.  I say not with the guys we have coming up in the system.  Plus SOME of the asylum members would like to see what we have or not in Moss for the longer view.  Young if he is getting time praticing second base then we need to see him there. That will be his position if he stays on the team.  Unless we want to sit Tab or Mill when they get here...

Morton leads off and takes, ball 1.  Takes a called strike, 1-1.  Fouled away, 1-2 count.  Fouled away.  And he swings and misses, strike 3.  1 away.

AMac looks at a called strike, 0-1.  Grounded to 2nd...throw to 1st.  2 away.

Freddy takes a strike on the inside, 0-1.  Misses outside, 1-1.  Misses outside again, 2-1.  Misses low, 3-1.  Grounded to 2nd, throw to 1st.  Side retired.

End of the 3rd, 1-0 Pirates.

DMac

Thanks so much for doing pbp, I'm sitting here on the couch with the dogs, while sweetie watches some movie on lifetime channel, we had tickets for the game tonight, but were supposed to do some family thing, but sweetie isn't feeling that good, ok, by me.

Re Freddie, yup its a gamble on his part, but not much, IMO giving him only 2 million more guaranteed is hapless, double it, spread it out over 3 years, give him a no trade this and next year, if Shelby is ready in 2011, deal him, if not you have insurance and if you do deal him, two years at 6 per year is much more palatable.

One other thing, I've really enjoyed you folks the past several days (I always do) but we all seem much more civil with each other and are listening to differing opinions

The new drugs must be working for all of us ; }

DK, thanks for the update regarding my question, and if you ever leave, we will hunt you down, ductape you and keep you in the closet.  ; }

0-1 count to Schierholtz.  Fouled away, 0-2.  Fouled away again.  And he swings and misses, strike 3.  1 away.

Ishikawa swings and misses, 0-1.  Misses outside, 1-1.  Checks his swing, 2-1 count.  Misses outside, 3-1.  Fouled away, 3-2 count.  Fouled away.  And he goes down looking at strike 3 on the inside corner.  2 away.

Uribe fouls the first pitch away, 0-1.  Misses outside, 1-1.  Line drive but Jack is right there to make the catch for the 3rd out.

@socaldonn and other Moss supporters

Right on, find out what pedigree he has now, he has character, a left handed stick and can put it in the river, decent glove and arm too.

We need to stick with Garret Jones too, he will develop at this level, IMO of course

Morton Salt is showing his po?

DMAC, I havent thanked you for your efforts in a while, you are MORE AWESOMER than ever!

Jones leads off and fouls it away, 0-1.  

Walk doesn't just want HR's from Garrett, he wants river shots.

Jones takes and it's a called strike, 0-2.  Grouned to 2nd, throw to 1st.  1 away.

Ryan takes way inside, 1-0.  (Warning to Zito to not hit Doumit or PoH will be after him)  Catches the inside corner, 1-1.  Misses, 2-1 count.  Fouled away, 2-2 count.  Fly ball to RF.  Schierholtz makes the catch.  2 away.

Adam pops the first pitch up on the INF. Ishikawa makes the catch, side retired.

Heading to the 5th, still 1-0 Pirates.

Someone with giants must have taken the wayback machine and plucked Barry Zito 2002 up for this game

Renteria leads off and takes a called strike, 0-1.  And he lines a single to CF.

Whiteside grounds to SS...Jack tosses to Freddy...who thought Jack was going to step on the bag, so Freddy just makes the catch, then throws to Adam to complete the DP.  2 away.

Why is Jack wearing a shirt with 1 long sleeve and 1 short?

Zito gets ahead, 2-0.  He takea a dalled strike, 2-1  He grounds to 2nd, Freddy fields and throws to Adam, just getting Zito at 1st.  Side retired.

@macsinthebox - re awesomer

1.  Good thing there is no spell check at this place ; }

2. please be careful, next thing we know that will go to Ms DMac's head and she will be declaring free agency

DMac - only one WOOHOO so far, you promised more??

DY leads off and hits a fly ball to RF. Schierholtz makes the catch 1 away. (that was on a 1-0 pitch)

Andy takes outside, 1-0.  Misses, 2-0. Takes and it catches the inside corner, 2-1.  Fly ball to RF...and Schierholtz again makes the catch.  2 away.  

Jack takes a strike on the outside, 0-1.  Grounded foul, 0-2.  Upstairs, 1-2.  Popped foul, count stays, 1-2.  Fly ball to LF...Bowker makes the catch.  Side retired.

They're through 5, still 1-0 Pirates.  

re - Why is Jack wearing a shirt with 1 long sleeve and 1 short?

IMO its his thoughts on the Front Office

I know its chilly for July, but do you notice how many players wear sleeves all the time?  Not to pick a scab, but when they changed the uniforms, the argument was the players don't like the sleeves??

This game mirroring last night's game--Pirates score 1 in the first and it holds up for several innings as neither team does much with the opposing pitcher.

Since the trade and contract started, is it just me, or is Freddy seeming a little uptight?  His hands are not seeming as soft in the field, throws seem a little erratic, etc.

Me thinks Jack just wanted to have another number on the stats for him and Freddy.  He should have taken that double play himself..

@Macs...Thanks, Dude.  (SOrry, went to school in Southern CA. )  

@Biz...Hmm..Free agency...interesting concept.  I hope there are more "WOOHOO" moments, though I think I didn't give Ryan an appropriate WOOHOO on his RBI.  That was wrong.  ;-)

And it's raining at PNC.  The tarp is coming on the field.  And now they're unrolling the tarp.

Okay, well...maybe not it is going back on the field after all.

According to Bob Walk, it's not raining.  Which is why the umbrellas are out and the crowd is making for the overhangs.  

In fairness to Bob, the sun IS shining to the west, so it is just a passing shower.  

Freddy does look uptight, no doubt. Hopefully they can resolve the issue pretty soon.

They turned Bob loose with the Telestrator again.  He's drawing fireworks over the river from the barge moored there for later on.

Biz...one player who used to wear long sleeves all the time was Doumit, and he doesn't with these new uniforms.

And the tarp is coming off the field.  

DK...That is an AWESOME photo!  

It is hard to tell whether it is raining or not--try to remember--little drops from the clouds is rain, no drops is no rain--think i have that right :)

This should not be long enough a break to affect the pitchers.

Diehard I had the same thought about Freddie, according to Dmac's pbp he's had trouble tonight, and he almostg cost them the game last night.

Morton is back out on the mound.

Winn is leading off the 6th for SF.  First pitch is hit to R-CF...AMac makes the catch for the out.  1 away.

Bowker takes ball 1.  Grounded to 2nd, Freddy to Adam.  2 away.

Sandoval takes a strike on the inside, 0-1.  Swings and misses, 0-2.  Swings and misses and it's in the dirt, Ryan throws to Adam to complete the strike out.  Side retired.

Dejan

Nice play by play of the rain delay, or non rain delay, or whatever it was.

Phenomenal photo DK.

Morton really got into a groove after the 2nd inning

Biz,

Agree about Jones and I would expect him to be the first baseman come August 1, trade or no trade.  If still here expect Adam to become a late inning defensive replacement and pinch hitter.  

LOL @ DK's PBP of the to tarp or not to tarp incident.  ;-)

Morton has a 2-2 count. And he goes down looking.  1 away.

AMac bloops a single to CF.

Freddy takes a called strike, 0-1.  Upstairs, 1-1.  Takes and it catches the corner, 1-2.  AMac takes off, Freddy swings and strikes out, but AMac is safe at 2nd.  2 away.

I LOVE that AMac knows how to slide...he does that pop-up slide.

Jones hits the first ball to L-CF...Winn makes the catch to end the inning.

Heading to the 7th, still 1-0 Pirates.

I have to say, for those who love to watch pitchers dual it out, like me, these last two games have been awesome.  The best part is the Pirates being apart of both of them!

Freddie and Jack are doing their best to keep the Giants in the game.  

Milledge is 3 for 4 with a double and RBI in Indy tonight.  He has raised his average to .314.

Lincoln started for Indy tonight - 5 innings, 6 hits, 5 runs, 4 BB, 1K, 2 HR.  His ERA is now 5.74.

DK cracks me up.

Nice pic before game.

Glad DK mentioned Adam's nice defensive saves last night.  I'm not unhappy to know he won't be a Bucco next year, but he is silky smooth on defense.  That will be missed.

What's going on with Jack and Freddy?  Look distracted out there in the field.  Lovers quarrel?  Sibling rivalry?  

First pitch to Schierholtz  is lined just over Jack's glove as he made a jumping attempt.  It drops for a single.

Ishikawa grounds it back to the mound.  Morton fields and throws to Jack for 1, but Jack has problems getting it out of his glove, so they just get the force.

1 away, Runner at 1st.

Did someone put bad mojo around 2B?

Uribe has a 1-0 count.  Misses outside, 2-0.  Fouled away, 2-1.  Fouled away again, 2-2 count.  Popped up in foul ground by 1B.  Adam makes the catch for the out.  2 away.

Renteria takes a called strike, 0-1.  In the dirt, 1-1.  Grounded foul along the 3B line, 1-2 count.  Fouled away.  Swings and misses for strike 3.  

Time to follow the boucing Eat N Park Cookie...Stretch time, that is.  :-)

Milledge starting to tear it up in Indy  3-4 Again tonight  WOOO HOOO

         Adam is the streakiest hitter i believe i have ever seen

Bad Mojo comes from the grey ones, IMO

FSN having technical difficulties...  SHOCKER!  

FSN having technical difficulties...  SHOCKER!  

Ryan leads off and takes a called strike, 0-1.  Misses low, 1-1 count.  C'Mon, Ryan!  YAY!  He lines a single to LF.  SWEET!

Adam takes low, ball 1.  C'Mon, Adam! Swings and misses, 1-1.  Low and away, 2-1.  Swings and misses, 2-2.  Crap.  Foul tipped and held for the strike out.  1 away.

DY nearly gave me something to REALLY "woohoo" about, but it just hooked foul, 0-1.  Up and in, 1-1 count.  Misses inside, 2-1.  And he grounds a single up the middle.  

Runners at 1st and 2nd, 1 away.

Crap.  Technical difficulties on FSN.

Andy takes high, ball 1.  Grounded foul, 1-1 count.  Misses upstairs, 2-1 count.  Fouled away to the right, 2-2 count.  FOuled away again. (Phew!  Video is back!  )  Upstairs and the count goes full to Andy, 3-2 count.  Fouled away.  WOOHOO!  He lines a single to Center!  Ryan comes around and scores!  SWEET!

Runners still at 1st and 2nd, 1 away.

And here comes Bochy to get Zito.  

Grey men are now affecting FSN

Brandon Medders is now pitching for the Giants.

Jack comes up with DY at 2nd and Andy at 1st and 1 away.  And he pops the first pitch up on the INF....INF Fly rule in effect.  2 away.

Salazar is PH-ing for Morton.  He takes outside, 1-0.  Swings and misses, 1-1 count.  Grounded foul, 1-2.  Way outside, 2-2 count.  And he goes down looking at strike 3.

The Bucs add a rune...2-0, as we go to the 8th.

I must say so far, and I'm knocking on woodl a tremendous performance by the PBC pitchers so far in this series

As the Gunner would say - We're eyeballing them, snort, snort, ,guffaw

Grabow pitching for the Bucs.

Whiteside leads off for SF and bunts, foul, 0-1.  Swings and misses, 0-2.  Fouled away.  Grounded foul again.  Misses, 1-2.  And he goes down swinging.  1 away.

Aaron Rowand PH-ing for Medders.  Misses outside, 1-0.  Fly ball to RF...DY is there and makes the catch.  2 away.

It's precipitating again at PNC, lightly.  

Winn takes outside, ball 1.  Swings and misses, 1-1.  Swings and misses again, 1-2.  Fouled away.  Fouled away. Fouled away.  In the dirt, 2-2 count.  In the dirt and the count goes full, 3-2.  Grounded to SS...Jack to Adam and that's 3.

Sell out crowd of 37,000 tonight, btw.

So have been been seeing good pitching, weak hitting, or a combination of both?  through now 21 innings of this series the two teams have combined for 5 runs--and the pirates have 4 of them

Sorry, glasses+laptop+feet on your lap+dog on the other side = crappy typing, but overall a good night

JAL<

I think it is a combination of good pitching coupled with weak hitting.  Neither team is an offensive juggernaut.

DK:

Apparently the Umpires were "pushing hard" to resume play so the game will begin again "imminently".

Merkin Valdez pitching for the Giants.

AMac leads off and takes, ball 1.  Fouled away, 1-1.  Fouled away again, 1-2.  And he goes down looking at a called strike 3.  1 away.  Looked a little low to me.

Freddy grounds to SS...throw to 1st.  2 away.

Jones grounds to 1st.   1B to the P covering the bag and that ends the 8th.

JAL

The GMen are in the race, I know how you feel about rumors and all, but maybe Adam leaves on the flight with them?

More Saturday night fun from the Mad Capper!

Ok Cappers, finish it off

Much better now on TV, got to Law and Order ; }

Raise the Jolly Roger!

And Matt Capps is on to close it out for the Pirates.

Bowker leads off and looks at a called strike, 0-1.  Lined just over Freddy's glove...it drops into RF for a single.  

Sandoval singles to CF on the first pitch.  

*trying not to hyperventilate*

Schierholtz takes a called strike, 0-1.  Fouled away, 0-2.  Grounded to 1st....Adam takes it and steps on the bag for the 1st out.  The runners advance to 2nd and 3rd.

Ishikawa swings and misses, 0-1.  Swings and misses again, 0-2.  Fouled away.  Fouled away.  And he swings and misses, strike 3.  2 away.

WOOHOO!  Uribe grounds the first pitch to Andy, fields and throws to Adam and that's game!

RAISE THE JOLLY ROGER!    Pirates win, 2-0!  

That's a wrap

SWALLOW THE JOLLY ROGER!!!

ants marching=============================================

Couple things...

1.  Offense is still horrible

2.  Capps is not a closer

3.  Gotta love taking the first 2 with Duke pitching the 3rd game

4,  The only way LaRoche is on the plane with SF is if he buys a ticket.  Why would any team trade for him right now?  

Nice performance by Mr. Morton.  Nice win, gentlemen.

McLouth, by the way, took another 0 for 5 tonight.

Don't mean that as a statement about the trade by the way.  Time will judge that.

If we had better options than the LaRoche brothers, our offense would be okay.

Add Milledge, Pedro, and move Jones to 1b?  hmmmm?

And Capps is a very solid closer.  I'll take him all day long with a one run lead.