Morning links: Jack the real target?

Will Wilson be happy to stay even if Sanchez is traded?

One more note on Jones second homer. It bounced into the river after he hit it out to right center field. Not many balls get to the river going out in right center. If he had hit it dead right, it hits the river on a fly.

Hearing the news about Bay breaking off extension talks with the Red Sox is like hearing that your ex-girlfriend, who was about to get engaged to a total d-bag who makes more money than you, has decided to call it off, which makes you proud of her, and you kind of want her back now.  

Oh Jason Bay, how you play with my heart.

$10 million over two years for Sanchez. Public relations ploy for Pirates' management indeed. I knew it was too good to be true. :(

My sources tell me that the true motivation for moving Sanchez now has absolutely nothing to do with finances, but rather the FO wants to avoid any future confusion fans may have with the PBC's recent first-round draft choice, Tony Sanchez.  Rumor has it Nutting hates media questions regarding if two unrelated players are related.

Smart move, if you ask me.

From the previous thread...

on that 2nd HR...it wasn't a question of IF the ball was gone, it was HOW FAR it was going to be.  It was a monster.

Goodbye, Freddy.

@ WW (from prev. couple of threads)

I didn't know that about Escobar--I'd take him I guess, putting my personal dislike aside if he were a Bucco.

Adding Gorkys would seem to go against our philosophy of stockpiling young talent, but if we traded Duke + Gorkys for Holland + Perez, well then...

We fans can dream. Always enjoy talking trade and appreciate your inputs.

Didn't realize that was Evan Meek''s first win.  Congrats there.  What he's shown lately, it won't be his last, and he'll be adding some saves to the resume before he's done as well.

There have been 29 year olds that have made a splash into their 30's....Raul Ibanez comes to mind.  Traded to KC at 29, I think, and got to play everyday.  He's turned out pretty good, I'd say.  Garret Jones is not as good as his fast start, but he's definitely got skills and potential, even with his age.

As for Jack and Freddy, I'll reserve judgment until the end of the month.  I'm actually still on the fence as to whether sign or trade them.  I've been a fan of each trade this group has made, so far, except for Torres.  But, although no offense, I love Jack.  Always have.  Freddy might actually get a decent prospect or two, though.

Should be an interesting few weeks.  

It's disgusting to ask Freddy Sanchez to take a cut down to 5 million a year, while negating the 8 million he almost certainly will earn when he gets that 600th plate appearance. I know that Orlando Hudson didn't get much money from the Dodgers when you consider his offensive and defensive abilities, and that definitely had to do with the economy. I do think that Freddy is just as good as Hudson, and to the Pirates I think he is invaluable. You won't get a top-notch prospect for Freddy because teams don't like his age and his contract, so why not make him an offer that is representative of the dedication and loyalty he has shown to the organization?

Unlike just about everyone else, I've never been a big fan of Jack Wilson, but with these two guys the Pirates have just about the best middle infield defense in baseball. Why not give them both three years (more security) and 18 million? It's still a pay cut, but not as much, and how about throwing in a no-trade clause for both. Management needs to show the fans and the players that they won't sell off everyone to collect more prospects.

Give Adam Laroche the boot as soon as possible, try and get two marginal prospects in return, and then build from there. There comes a time when you have to stop burning down everything that your predecessors put in place, because some of it might be worth saving.

By the way, did anyone notice Alvarez is up to .273 at Altoona? He may be settling down a bit.

39 down.  42 to go.

#1 Star: G.I. Jones - Blam!  Blam! Sploosh! Whoa!

#2 Star: Maholm - Out-duels a Cy Young Winner

#3 Star: Chavez - for coming in late and dousing the fire Hanrahan tried to start.

Little ditty bout Jack & Freddy:  I think the starting point in the negotiations the Pirates set is low and there might still be wiggle room upwards.  From that lowball offer, I think they can sweeten the deal for Freddy a bit more.  Looking for middle ground in the middle infield.

You don't suppose Robinzon Diaz is playing any second base lately, do you?

"Ah, you beat me, Doc.  All I got is two pair:  A pair o' ones and anudder pair o' ones."

Wabbit.

If anything, I think the fact that the offer is not what Freddy is looking for, is proof that this is NOT a PR ploy.

What good from a PR perspective does it do the FO to make an offer that isnt close to what he wants.  If anything, that would just hurt their case from a PR perspective.  I think it is an honest attempt to sign him at what they have pegged as his "value", and if he won't sign, they will move him for prospects they like.

The PR aspect would be that the Pirates have now made an offer to Freddy who has publicly stated he wants to stay in Pgh. If or when Freddy turns down a pay cut to stay, then he will be labeled just another greedy player who didn't really mean what he said and is just in it for the money. Bet your house on it that when Freddy is traded, top Pirate shill Greg Brown will be on the sports talk shows, TV and radio broadcasts dissing Freddy as insincere and an old, injury prone player past his prime. I'm sure Huntington et al are planning on making Freddy the bad guy and the fans turning on him they way Pittsburghers do when they think their city has been "dissed".  That way when Freddy is traded, the fan reaction will be "good riddance" instead of blaming Nutting and the FO and vowing never to attend another Pirate game.

See how that works?

DMac wrote re: Jones' tale grows with two more blasts

on Sat, Jul 18 2009 5:53 AM

@Bay...JJ was there and I finally got to meet Tina -- wonderful lady.  Umm....no dancing that I could see, but they may have decided to move that into a bar or something...it's a bit on the cool side.

DMAC, I know Tina thanks you, but I am the thanful one.

Wake,

You must be taking on water again, you missed my response to anting to sell some beachfront WV property.  I asked you from whom did you buy it?

I had a follow up quetion prepared so I will ask that one as well right now, and why did you buy it?

Hey wabbits in season,  I do not know if Diaz has fielded a ground ball yet, what I am betting is that Mr. D. Young is on his way to the racquetteball courts.

Every cowboy knows to hold your cards close.  Funny how many guys playing texas hold em are wearing sun glasses.

Considering there are only so many things that can happen with a player, have enough people speculating about it and someone comes up lucky.

www.youtube.com/watch

To the Pirates FO I say Bravo.  These two guys have been the cornerstones of the losing for the last 5 years.  It's time to move on.  Get some young guys here who are hungry and want to win.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<  PROSPECT WATCH  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Today’s Topic: CATCHER (stats thru 7/17/09)

Steve Lerud – Bats L – Altoona (3rd  Round, 2003 Draft)

3 HR 16 RBI  .239  ** 67 Games 213 ABs, 22 R, 51 H, 87K, 24 BB, 1SB

Kris Watts – Bats L – Lynchburg (16th  Round, 2006 Draft)

4 HR 32 RBI  .320  ** 70 G, 219 ABs,  41 R, 70 H, 29K, 45BB, 2 SB

Eric Fryer – Bats R - Lynchburg (obtained in E. Hinske trade)

Tony Sanchez – Bats R – S.Col. & West Va. (1st Round, 2009 Draft)

1 HR 13 RBI  .352  **  15 G, 54 ABs, 8 R, 19 H,  8K, 7 BB, 0 SB

Andrew Walker – Bats R – West Virginia (5th  Round, 2007 Draft)

1 HR  13 RBI  .211  ** 35 G, 114 ABs,  14 R, 24 H, 28K, 20 BB, 0 SB

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Morning Links Part 2

Play by Play Pitch by Pitch 14 innings

scores.espn.go.com/.../playbyplay

Pittsburgh vs. San Francisco

www.cbssports.com/.../MLB_20090718_SF@PIT

Giants lose a marathon in Pittsburgh

www.mercurynews.com/.../ci_12864155

Pirates Second Half Preview: On Pace For All-Time Losing Streak

www.thepittsburghchannel.com/.../detail.html

Sitting in the Clemente seats last night I had the straight on vision of the play that gave the bad guys a run.

If I am Johnny Bench and I see that runner where he is when Ryan saw him, I nail em.

I'm thinking any other catcher being just a short way up the line like that knowing I got to get back to the plate if I do not get the runner, I think I give the ball to paul.

That said, Ryan put the ball on the mark and he had him.

JAL, this is one morning we may both enjoy the play by play by every last pitch link.

I am thinking neal calls Freddy and says, Freddy we know you are ready, we are hoping you will stay for an extra year for free.

Freddy says, I may be ready but I want to be steady.  You could balance the sheet a little more like I was thinking bla bla bla.

Neals thinking, I can do that.  But he says, Freddy you are our ready steady and lets take a look at the rings.

Freddy checks in on the blog with his I phone to see that the maninthestrip's ex girlfriend likes big rings

So, freddy says to the first guy walking by, I want to seal the deal, but I am no cheap date.

Neal, overhearing this says :

www.youtube.com/watch

This is when the talks get private and serious.

THE OFFICIALLY UNOFFICIAL PBC BLOGS AND MLB LINKS:

Bleacher Report--N.L. Central Roundtable, Part I: Trade Deadline

www.bucsdugout.com/.../n-l-central-roundtable-part-i

Bleacher Report--Pirates 2, Giants 1: Garrett Jones, Superhero

www.bucsdugout.com/.../pirates-2-giants-1-garrett-jones

why gavs--Extending Sanchez and Wilson: could it work?

whygavs.com/.../where-is-this-headed.html

Why Gavs--Pirates 2 Giants 1

whygavs.com/.../game-89-pirates-2-giants-1.html

Pittsburgh Lumber Company--Jones Does it Again (Twice)

mvn.com/.../jones-does-it-again-twice.html

Pittsburgh Lumber Company--Jack and Freddy: A win-win situation

mvn.com/.../jack-and-freddy-a-win-win-situation.html

Sandlot Swashbucklers--Milledge and Gorzelanny Lead Tribe Past PawSox

mvn.com/.../milledge-and-gorzelanny-lead-tribe-past-pawsox.html

Raise the Jolly Roger--Garrett Jones + pitching = win [Giants 1 Pirates 2]

raisethejollyroger.com/.../garrett-jones-pitching-win-giants-1-pirates-2

The Green Weenie--Along Came Jones

oldbucs.blogspot.com/.../along-came-jones.html

The Green Weenie--Then Again, Maybe Not

oldbucs.blogspot.com/.../then-again-maybe-not.html

PBC Home Page--Jones makes splash, lifts Bucs in extras

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

PBC Home Page--Morton can rebound in post-break start

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

Is This Thing On?--Welcome back from the All-Star break

indyindians.mlblogs.com/.../welcome_back_from_the_all-star.html

Rumbunter--Freddy Sanchez and Jack Wilson Retire in Pittsburgh? Yes Virginia, there is hope, but…

rumbunter.com/.../freddy-sanchez-and-jack-wilson-retire-in-pittsburgh-yes-virginia-there-is-hope-but

MLB Transactions--

www.cbssports.com/.../transactions

Bucco Fans--Pirates Notebook: How much are Jack and Freddy worth?

www.buccofans.com/.../pirates-notebook-how-much-are-jack-and.html

Bucco Fans--Video Recap of Jeff Locke

www.buccofans.com/.../video-recap-of-jeff-locke.html

Viva Derek Bell--Jack Hearts Freddy 4ever

vivaderekbell.blogspot.com/.../jack-hearts-freddy-4-ever.html

MLB Trade Rumors

www.mlbtraderumors.com/pittsburgh_pirates

Pittsbugh Sports Buzz--That Sholud Do it

pittsburghsportsbuzz.blogspot.com/.../that-should-do-it.html

The MC Effect--Best friends Forever

eatsleepmlb.mlblogs.com/.../best_friends_forever.html

You're right, DK, the Pirates offer is not in the realm of what it would take to keep Freddy here.  Help me out here regarding his contract.  As I understand it, only if Sanchez gets 600 at bats this season will next season's $8 m. contract kick in.  Questions:  

1. Are the Pirates required to give him an $8 m. contract for next season if he has 600 at bats?

2.  If he's traded to another team, will the same clause transfer to his new team?  i.e. Would the new team be obligated to an $8 m. contract in case of 600 at bats?

I hadn't realized that the dreaded $8 million option had been negotiated by the current management team.

This puts them in a rather difficult negotiating position and makes their initial offer hard to swallow for Freddie. I mean at one point the PBC felt he was worth that much. His play on the field has not degraded and in fact is better this year than last. But now the PBC  thinks he is worth far less than what they themselves agreed he was worth not too very long ago.

Unless things change during negotiations, I don't see this ending well for Freddie. As close as Freddie and Jack are, the PBC may have jeopardized their chances of signing Jack because he may walk away from this feeling like they (the PBC) insulted Freddie with their offer.

As Han Solo once said: "I've got a bad feeling about this."

Jose

$$$$$  BODY WATCH – ATTENDANCE AT MLB PARKS $$$$$

Thru 7/17/09 …

30. Oakland……. 42 dates ** 753,356 total  **  17,937 avg.

29. Florida……… 47 dates ** 853,344 total  **  18,156 avg.

28. PIRATES ….. 40 dates ** 747,656 total  **  18,691 avg.

27. Cleveland….. 46 dates ** 1,021,752 tot  ** 22,212 avg.

26. Tampa Bay… 45 dates ** 1,036,712 tot  ** 23,038 avg

1. NY Yanks … 43 dates ** 1,947,651 total   **   45,294 avg.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

DK:

I have a question regarding the offer made to Freddy.

Do the PBC's tactics involving Fred's offer help, or hurt their reputation with the players in the clubhouse? Or does it have no impact either way?

Wow, what a great game last night.  We go to a lot of games, but we were given 2 tickets to the Home Plate Club last night.

(Yes, I was polite to Mr. Coonelly, w ho was behind me in line at the buffet - managed to stick in my 2 cents about how I favored the extensions to Freddy and Jack; the value of veteran leadership a having a solid defense behind the young pitchers.)

It was great giving my 11 year old son a close up view of the Maholm v. Lincecum matchup.  Mr. Cynical had a great time, but warned me that he was wearing his Sanchez jersey.  

So?  Well, he replied, I used to wear Bay and McLouth and you know what happened to them. (They ought to velcro the names on the back of the jerseys, for God's sake, for what you pay for them.)

I admit I left after the 11th inning, so I missed the 2nd Garrett Goner / Jones Jack - or whatever Greg Brown named it.

@JAL - Morning links and my morning coffee.  Thanks brother.

Good morning, everyone.  Great win last night.  I don't know that winning that game means a long-lasting good start to this part of the season, but I do have the feeling that if they had lost, many many more losses could have followed.  The Garrett Jones watch has become fun.

I am really disturbed by DK's article today on the double deal w/ JW and FS.  For all of their complaining about the negotiations getting out, Neal seems to have plenty to say in public now.  How did the numbers come out?  Clearly, they are insulting to Freddy.  My impression is that Neal is plainly arrogant in his comments, with a take-it-or-leave it approach.  I've heard about how difficult arbitration hearings are for the player when he hears how little he's worth from the team's perspective.  Isn't that what Freddy just heard in Neal's comments?

I thought people were wrong at first when they called this a PR stunt - it's alot harder to say that they are wrong today after Neal's quotes yesterday.

Jose,  To get an equation you need more than one fact.  I would like to know back before the season when freddy approached the Pirates with an extension offer, what was that offer?

I would think that freddy did not have a money request in hand because lets face it even with the home town discounted talked about with the offer  he would still be asking for more money or else the deal has been signed.

It absurd to think that Freddy pitched for more money and then Neal after a good first half counter offers with half of what he is making?

I think it makes more sense that Freddy just walking down the hall one day as he passes FC he says to him, I.d love to end up by your side.

Thats it.

Frank gets to thinking and asks himself, how many sides do I have and will Freddy cover my backside?

Attorneys instictively dispensate fact finding research to another.

Frank tells Neal the hallway encounter and says remind him what we will owe him for next year and then find out what it take to keep him an additional year.

you just never know

www.youtube.com/watch

I think both of these offers are fair. Sanchez's second year could be a bargain for the Pirates, but if Sanchez really wants to stay in Pittsburgh then $10 million is nothing to sneeze at. There is also the chance that he could get injured and not vest next year or that next year could be like last year and nobody would want him in 2010.

As devoted to Pittsburgh as he is, I can't think that he wouldn't come back with $11 million over 2 or $12 million over 3 years and get something done.

I need something explained by someone that pays more attention to these matters than I do.

I was under the impression that Sanchez' contract was automatically renewed at 8.something million if he achieved 600 abs, which he is well on his way to doing.  In DK"s article this morning, Huntington says something to the effect that "they can become free agents and see what the market pays them after the season".  

Would Freddy not become a free agent if he gets his 600 at bats?  Or would he be a free agent anyways with a player option to re up for one more year for 8mil.  Did Huntington mean this as a subtle threat that Freddy won't get his 600 at bats?  I can't imagine the Pirates being able to sit him if he is healthy, but then again it is the Pirates.

Debate team tactics are interesting to watch.  The FO issues statements to let Freddy and Jack know they don't believe they could get more money on the open market.  The idea is to make it seem like outside elements like the market drive everything and their hands are tied.

Meanwhile, Freddy issues statements to the effect that he and Jack are "genuine" (read hardworking folks just like everyone in the burgh) and the FO rejecting their offer would prove they are not "genuine" (greedy, unlike you nice folks in the burgh)

I'm in my own fact gathering stage and have no solid decision on how I feel so far.  This thing has to play out.  But I do know that it's easy to get swept up in the idea that the players are just like me... although I'll kill myself working my entire life hoping for a slim chance at retiring in my late 60's while the players are arguing over whether they'll get ten times my lifetime earnings in two years or twenty times my lifetime earnings at the same time the FO profits equally as much if not more.

When I look at it that way it's difficult for me to relate to any of this to tell you the truth.

CAPN, The nasty world of baseball player arbitration is the rule of law.

I doubt any GM likes to go through it. Think of the relationship fallibility with the process.  you have to look a guy in the eye you want on your team and tell him his shortcomings outweigh his wish list.

I can think of no way under this sysrem that the team and player can complete the process and evryone come out happy.

Since arbitration is the hinge word to every arbitration ready or pre arbitration ready  baseball contract, both side may

approach with that ruling matter in hand.

Would anyone like that type of offer for what they do, No.  

Freddy had made it known he would entertain the hometown discount clause to stay here.  His saying that allows us to realize a lot about the guy.On eof the things is he is concerned about the growing pains going on and is offering knowing some of the pains bleed green.

Remembering Freddy was the initiator from the start to staying full term, reminds us that some time has passeed.

I am thinking how do you start the conversation back up.  you take the chance and offer a bit more as an initial offer and freddy's agent smells blood and counters to end the hope of plenty.

This time lull between the first and then answer of lets talk makes it a tough road to start off from.

I think there is not a one among us who thinks that if the full and complete offer was to stay an extra year for free  and that is it,  think it to be anything but a hit below the belt.

So, I guess many will be off to the races with opinions of what should the right amount have been.

I am clueless about that.

I am sure you know way more about that aspect of the game than I will ever know so why don't you begin the show with what is the known %'s in like situations?

This truly is a worthwhile discussion.  I think it would have been under the strain of foolishness to begin this offer as a swindler.

So the volume of information that your post will spark will put us all on the mark.

@ Tor: The PBC can buy out Freddie's contract for $500K at the end of this season making him an FA.

@ JJ: sometimes it stuns me that we can all read the same thing  and you come up with some "twist" that was not written anywhere.

The PBC approached Freddie and Jack and made them an offer. It was not the other way around. Either way, you are (I think) saying that what DK is reporting is "absurd" as far as the numbers involved.

I think Freddie is thinking the same thing, but in a much different context than your own.

Jose

Whatever happened earlier in the season apparently did not go so far as an exchange of monetary requests. As i recall, he was open to discussing an extension, the PBC was not at the time, end of discussion.

Of course, my comment is dependent on my interpretation of whatever it was exactly that you wrote (no offense) but you do not make it abundantly clear as to what exactly you are putting forward

@Tor

I am not 100% sure on this, but I believe I read somewhere that if Sanchez's option kicks in, the Pirates have the ability to buy it out for somewhere in the $800k+ range.  I could be way off on that, but I think I read that somewhere.

CAPN, thats initial post

JJ, you have way more confidence in my ability to analyze %'s than you should.  I wouldn't know where to start on this.

Honestly, combining with what GGG said about the huge amount of moneys involved, I think if I were in the situation of a baseball player who had already earned Millions, other issues would become more important, like being underrated or insulted by my management.  Except for the millions, that pretty much describes my last job situation.  Ok, maybe I wasn't directly insulted, but vastly underrated despite my efforts to show them otherwise.  So out the door I went the first moment I could, more money or not.  Actually, not.

The suggstion that the Sanchez offer is even close to "fair" is ludicrous.

He controls an option that will pay him $8M next season.

For him to accept the Pirates offer of 2 yrs for $10M more or less assumes the best deal he could strike for 2011 is 1 yr at $2M. - That is ridiculous.

I could possibly have seen if they had offered him 3 yrs at $15M.

I agree with what Dejan initially wrote - the issue will be years not dollars.  There's a tendency of some to look at the $10M (vs $8M for one year of original deal) and think the dollars are the issue.  I don't hold that opinion.  I think the issue is # of years.  Furthermore, i think the FO is probably not far off, if at all, in terms of evaluating what Freddy would get in a down economy on the open market.  

If I was in Freddy's shoes, I grudgingly accept the financial evaluation but push for an extra guaranteed year...and tell PBC I'll accept $10M over 2 years if you throw in a third guaranteed year at same rate...$15M over 3 yrs.  In this economy, in order to get the longer guarantee, I might also be willing to knock $1 - 1.5M off the three year total if PBC will go to 3 years.

BTW, whatever the outcome, I agree with Hos from yesterday when he said this FO doesnt do PR moves.  I dont think their offer is a PR move.  But if Freddy makes this kind of counter - which will sound clearly fair to us in the peanut gallery - he will certainly "win" the PR exchange if negotiations still fall apart.  For what that's worth.  (Not much to me.  PR doesnt feed the family or build winning teams.)

Good morning inmates near and far. Had a nice time at the game, once again couldn't stay until the winning hit. JJ thanks for stopping by to see us.  Question for anyone at the game, the throw out at the plate, did he run through a stop sign?

And in case anyone connected with Pirates PR/radio sees this:

ABSOLUTELY ABSURD TO CONDUCT AN ON AIR INTERVIEW ON RADIO FOR AN ENTIRE INNING WITH A REP FROM FLORIDA TOURISIM AND NOT GIVE AN ADEQUATE PBP. IT'S RADIO, THE GAME SHOULD COME FIRST.

Hos - great minds think alike...or we're both a couple of idjits! See my last post re: 15M over 3.  As part of strategy, if I'm PBC and assuming a willingness to go to 3 yrs, I still start at 2 yrs and allow myself to get pushed there.

BTW...I forgot to say in my earlier post...I'm in NO WAY convinced that PBC is willing to go to 3 yrs.  Remember Dejan's initial warnings that if this doesnt work, it will likely be because of years not dollars.

Good morning Radio.  My best to Mrs Wave and Wilson.

Drew,

Exactly!

No way Fred accepts 2 yrs at $10M when he already has $8M for next year in hand, one way or another.

3 yrs at $15M might be doable though.

Here's the thing, the Pirates will be foolish to not consider the 3rd year if that is what it takes because if they decide not to offer more than two yrs, that leaves two options for next season....

Keep him and pay the $8M or trade him.

To trade him, it will either have to be a pure salary dump with nothing in return, or they will have to pay some of his $8M next year and maybe get a middle of the road prospect. The thing is, other clubs won't take on the full $8M salary AND give a legitimate prospect. It will be one or the other.

So say the Bucs have to agree to pay half of Fred's contract if he is traded ($4M). They'd be better off in the long run to give him the 3rd year with the $4M that would be dead money next year. At least get something for it.

Fred and his agent need to realize that he has the leverage here. The Pirates are either going to have to make their offer more reasonable, or then he should just let nature takes it's course. Let them trade him, he will get his guaranteed $8M next year and then after that he can control his own destiny as a free agent going where he wants for whatever amount he wants.

There is no doubt that this sorry excuse of a baseball club is focused on reducing expenses as much as absolutely possibleThey will be losing 3/4 of their infield.  The numbers show exactly how insincere the PBC was with this grandstand offer.  Here is the list of free agents fro 2010 in both 2nd and SS.  Even given Jack's relatively empty BA, he has to be near the top of choices at SS.  Freddy is younger than Polanco and the only other all star on the list.  So NH says $5M is fair?

Second Basemen

Ron Belliard WAS

Jamey Carroll CLE

Mark DeRosa STL

David Eckstein SD

Orlando Hudson LAD

Akinori Iwamura * TB

Felipe Lopez ARZ

Placido Polanco DET

Freddy Sanchez * PIT

Shortstops

Orlando Cabrera OAK

Alex Gonzalez * CIN

Khalil Greene STL

Miguel Tejada HOU

Jack Wilson * PIT

This team is cheap and it will govern everything they do in every area of operations.

As a side note to this whole Jack and Freddy saga, I am surprised quite frankly that the issue of whether or not the Pirate front office actually negotiates in good faith.

The FO seems to be acting as if Fred's $8M option next year is some god awful evil thing. Well the truth of the matter is, it is a contract they negotiated. If they never had any intention of paying Fred $8M in 2010, then they never should have agreed to the deal.

At this point, I question the integrity and good faith of Huntington, Coonelly, and Nutting now more than ever.

I would have to think the players do too.

My guess is that the clubs actions through this process will leave a lasting impression upon the outlook of the players.

It could end up good if they retain Jack or Fred, or the mood and outlook of front office by the remaining players could be dealt a lasting harmful blow.

Jose, the first part means that I am accepting the fact that Freddy made no money request so low as this offer is or he would have then signed this offer.  Makes only sense.

It absurd to think that Freddy pitched for more money and then Neal after a good first half counter offers with half of what he is making?

It absurd to think that Freddy pitched for more money and then Neal after a good first half counter offers with half of what he is making

Jose, where in your imagination did you come up with any referance to DK?

Freddy is the subject ot the sentnce, pitched is the verb and money is the object as it always is with contract talks.  the words before the subject and the words after the money are those words that get diagramed below the line.

I am more curious than geoge has ever been as to how you come up with this misunderstanding and insert information into anothers mind that is not there?

When I figure that out, I have a book.

Jose, not only did I not mention DK in that sentance at no time in my post do i even insinuate that anyhting I was speaking of had anything to do with DK, other than the common sense fact that he gave us the information back then and now.

I think every reasonable man would understand that the conversation is at hand from the goodwill of DK.

Sometimes he is in our conversation and sometimes he only begat the conversation.

I do not believe I have had one post without a subject to the verb easily identified.

What subject, what verb, heck, what dangling participle which I have lots of even hints that I was referring to DK's numbers?

You are such a jouster.

This means it would be crazy to think that in freddy's initial mention that he would love to stay and made a request to as what it would take making the offer prior to the seasons start and then neal would turn around and offer half of his current contract, the absurdity would have been in neals hand for half balling the cuurent deal after a very good start if freddy had made any money request.

Whatever happened earlier in the season apparently did not go so far as an exchange of monetary requests. As i recall, he was open to discussing an extension, the PBC was not at the time, end of discussion.

Is exactly my point.  

Hos - Without being repetitive, I agree with your evaluation of both PBC and Freddy's options...with one exception.

I didnt realize until one of Dejan's story yesterday that Freddy's contract next year is not really guaranteed at $8M.  I believe he wrote that the PBC have a $600K buy-out option, which Freddy has to assume PBC will exercise if they dont trade or extend him.

Therefore, if I'm in Freddy's camp, i'm not comparing the $10M offer over 2 years to $8M over 1.  I'm comparing the new offer to:

  $600,000 PLUS what I think I'll get in free agency.

In other words, the $8M is gone.  I might not like it if I'm Freddy, but to consider it as a realistic option is only fooling myself, which hurts me in my decision-making.

BTW...When you said "Exactly!"...was that you agreed with my evaluation, or agreed that I said we're a coupla idjits?

I'll go on record with a guess at final outcome:

- Jack stays

- Freddy leaves

Not what i want but frankly it would be easier to replace a 2Bman than a SS on open market and maybe from system (tho a dirth of MLB-ready players at either position for PBC).  And has been noted many times here and by real experts, Jack holds more value to PBC than he does to others, giving PBC more negotiating leverage with him.

Could someone please point me to the info on Freddy's buyout?  I don't remember it and I looked but couldn't find it.

CAPN, I should put way more confidence in your analizing numbers.

The question of "fair or unfair" has little to do with business, including the baseball busiess. The real question is "what is realistic in liight of the market?" How likely is Freddy to get more than $2Million in the FA market after next year? he probably could, but there is no guarantee he will and he may have to settle on a team rather than choose where he wants to play. It may be that the offer will set a three year proposal at something in the 12-13 Million range. If so, Freddy should jump at it. I think there will be a lot of disappointed free agents for the next year or so.

JerseyJoe-Thanks for the news on Mr Abraham.

...and forgot to mention in my prediction as to why Jack will stay...PBC has even more leverage with Jack because if he stays, Jack becomes a 10 yr / 5 yr man, giving him trade-veto power if he wishes.  That's a big deal.  If he leaves, he doesnt have the 5-yr-with-same-team component, and loses future leverage.  

If i'm Jack, I want that 10/5 status and am willing to give up something to get it.

CAPN, actually I was hoping JAL was around to rescue the both of us.

Drew,

I think you and a few others upthread might have Jack's contract and Freddy's contract confused.

Jack has an $8.4M option for next season with a club buyout.

Fred has an $8M option that he can guarantee no matter what as long as he gets his 600 PA's.

When I said "Exactly".....I meant both.

;-)

Maz, you are quite welcome

Capn,

There is no buyout with Fred's contract.

Jack has an $8.4M option for next season with a club buyout.

Fred has an $8M option that he can guarantee no matter what as long as he gets his 600 PA's.

As long as Bob Nutting doesn't try to trip Freddy and end his season with broken leg when he is running down the hallway out to the field one of these nights, Fred is going to get the 600 PA's he needs to guarantee himself $8M next year one way or another.

As of last night, Fred already has 348 of the 600 PA's he needs to guarantee the $8M option.

Thanks, Hostage.  I was wondering why I had no recollection of a buyout for him.  That would have made his automatic option significantly less meaningful.

Hos - oops, my mistake, it wasnt Dejan who wrote of the $600K buyout of Sanchez, it was Smizek in his blog yesterday:

"Sanchez is in the final year of a contract that is paying him $6.25 million. He can guarantee an $8 million option for next season with 600 plate appearances, which is well within his reach. There is a $600,000 buyout of the Sanchez contract."

Can anyone confirm the buy-out? First I had heard of it.  If it exists, does it only apply if Sanchez misses the 600 plate appearance threshold, or can it apply in all circumstances?

I have little doubt that the offer from the Bucs to Sanchez and Wilson could just be a PR ploy, but one thing about the criticism of the 10M/2YR offer to Freddy is this - If the FO came out with their best offer on the first cut, they would be idiots. Who negotiates against themselves? (See: Derek Bell). Two words come to mind - counterdemand and negotiation. So Freddy comes back at 14 and may be they settle at 12 with some incentives. Or maybe it is all BS. My point is that if it is real, the 10M is nothing more than an initial offer.

That's where the 600 plate appearances come in.  If he makes that, it's automatic - if not, they can pay the buyout.

www.post-gazette.com/.../855067-63.stm

back to lurking.

G JONES is becoming something we dreamed of, I mean I am watching ESPN and our PIRATES are all over the place, not only does he have a power swing he is CLUTCH...We own the GIANTS, We follow up with a beatdown of ZITO, YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS I cant beleive we hung in there,the bullpen was GREAT...

About FREDDY, I for one am eager to see what FREDDY does, he is set for life financially, he cried at the opening day ceremonies , lets see if his CHARACTER allows him to take a pay cut, I for one dont see the big deal, of course its not my money but management is basically saying  , hey lets see how much he wants to really stay...Regardless , last night was MAGICAL and we are close, WAIT TO WE GET MILLEDGE....

CURRENT PIRATE STANDINGS AS OF 7.03 PST

9.5 GB STL FOR NL CENTRAL

10 GB OF SF GIANTS FOR NL WILDCARD

WE CAN SWEEP THESE GUYS, ZITO MUST GET TOUCHED EARLY , LETS GO BUCS

The Pirates arent going to win with Freddy or Jack in the next 2 years so why not trade them?  A lot of people on here are way to optimistic after one win and the fact of the matter is the bucos will still finish with over 90 losses AGAIN.  Liking a player is a ridiculous reason to hope for a player to stay.  I am a fan of the team in general, I couldnt care less abouto Fred or Jack.  The goal is to build for 2012, not 2010.

Batavia, I was going to say the same thing but instead deicded to confuse some.

It really is that simple.

"There is no buyout with Fred's contract."

I'm not sure what this means but the PPG article says this:

If the Pirates reject the 2010 option, they pay a $600,000 buyout.

From Cot's web site, it says this:

2010:  $8M club option ($0.6M buyout)

Maybe I'm not understanding something though.

Batavia, i forgot to include that i am talking about the initial offer propsal of yours, not sure I see any PR gain worth the risk for tricanery to be taking place.

Thanks Sarah.  Now I get it.

Hos - changes my thinking a bit...makes the $8M a real option for Sanchez.  If I'm Freddy, I hold out for the third year a little harder.  Maybe counter with a proposal that gives PBC 2 choices: 2 yrs ok if they raise it by AT LEAST $1M but probably $2M...or extend it to three years at $5M/year (tho willing to shave 1 to 1.5M to get 3rd year.)  

This is essentially what i said before.  THe change in my stance is a nuance: how hard i hold out for one of these two options.  Knowing i have $8M in my pocket, I'm more willing to gamble that in 2011, I'll be able to get more than $2M from someone.

Make sense?

*Sigh*

The 600 PA's guarantees the $8M option and kills the potential buyout.

From the Pittsburgh Post Gazette:

A breakdown of the deal ...

• Sanchez will make $4 million this season, plus a $300,000 signing bonus. That strikes common ground, given the salary figures the Pirates and Sanchez had exchanged -- the team $4.1 million, Sanchez $4.9 million -- toward their arbitration hearing that had been set for Monday.

• He will make $6.1 million in 2009.

• For 2010, the Pirates can exercise a club option of $8 million that can increase by as much as $500,000 on performance bonuses: $100,000 for 650 plate appearances in 2008, $100,000 for 650 plate appearances in '08 or '09, $100,000 for an All-Star berth in '08, $100,000 for an All-Star berth in '09, $100,000 for a Gold Glove or Silver Slugger in '08 or '09.

• If the Pirates reject the 2010 option, they pay a $600,000 buyout.

• He can trigger that option automatically if he makes 635 plate appearances in 2009, or he has 600 plate appearances and an All-Star berth that same year.

Read more: www.post-gazette.com/.../855067-63.stm

Drew,

My guess is that 2 yrs won't get it done for Freddy period.

For him to even consider it, from his perspective the converstion is only about 2011. There is no way he should consider overriding the $8M option for something significantly less. He has that in pocket. He should take that to the bank no matter what.

He might consider a 2011 extension for $5M or so...but I don't know why he would.

So maybe 2 yrs. for $13M?

OR 3 yrs for $15M.  - That might not even be enough.

He needs to stick to his guns with the $8M.

Does anyone here actually think Freddy will get 600 abs if he is in a Pirate uniform  through the trading deadline (highly doubtful anyway) and we are in September 18 games out of first and he has 550 at bats? My guess is that he will be rested more frequently, and in the rhetoric will start about how we are out of the race and we need to see what Delwyn Young  and some other youngsters can do at 2nd base. If you can't sign him you HAVE to move him. There is absolutely no way he isn't traded , stays unsigned and gets 600 ab's.    

So its a Freddy morning--been out to the farmer's market so missed some of the back forth but good job by many finding the correct info.

Will say one thing about PR, since that is my field, making an offer is bad PR unless you can make a case that it was a fair and reasonable offer that was refused.  To make this effective  PR the Pirates would put the specifics of the offer, point out how this was great offer to players of their age and production.  Paint the Pirates a good guys and the players as bad guys. Then it might work or might not but at least would be more in the realm of PR.

Freddy could have been taken out of a lot more than just the double play last night, same play that sidelened Freddy a couple of years ago if I remember correctly.

Something for cushion as the marbles roll around.

pghboy

If the Pirates do that and rest him to keep from 600 AB they will be in big trouble with the player's union.  That would be a clear violation of the basic contract.

Pghboyinca,

I know for a fact through a mutual acquaintance that Freddy is highly sensitive to the healthy benchings. He also has believed from very early this season that the Pirates will trade him this year.

That said, IMO if the Nuttings try to bench him when he is healthy and performing well (Gold Glove caliber fielding + a .300+ BAve) simply to avoid a contract option it would result in a grievance by the Players Association and a public and players relations nightmare they simply cannot endure.

If they do not find a suitor, and he remains a Pirate, IMO he is a lock for the 6-- PA's.

Saw the item below on ESPN this morning

  • The Nats may have new personnel and a new manager, but the result was the same in Jim Riggleman's first game at the helm. Nyjer Morgan was picked off first base by Cubs pitcher Carlos Marmol in the eighth inning with Nick Johnson up as the potential tying run.

Thanks for posting the contract stuff, NuHo, it saves me the trouble of doing it.

If Freddy reaches 600 plate appearances this season...then his $8.1M salary for next season automatically kicks in. There is nothing the Pirates would be able to do to get out of paying it at that point...short of Freddy doing something to invalidate the contract. And if Freddy stays healthy...and performs at his current level...he will make 600 plate appearances. As of this morning...he's on pace for 633 plate appearances. Figuring an average of 4 plate appearances a game...he can miss about 9 games the rest of the season...or a hair under one a week. If he doesn't get to 600 PA...the Pirates could...if they so chose...to either A) Pick up the club option at $8.1M for 2010, or B) reject the option and buy him out at $600,000. Things could get real ugly if the Pirates obviously try to keep him under 600 PA.

Choice A would have him be a free agent after the 2010 season...Choice B would have him be a free agent as soon as the buyout is paid.

So...if the current report is money-wise correct...the Pirates want Freddy to play the 2011 season for $1.9M. Short answer...no way in a very hot place that happens.

I don't think PR has anything to do with this right now, except for the fact that the Pirates have a very sensitive fan base to every thing the Pirates do right now, large or small.

Negotiations often start out low, low balling, low bidding what ever you want to call it doesn't mean that it is over, it is just starting.

There are so many factors in a deal like this that a couple of dollar figures throw around now are far from any deal. Freddie''s side has to put what they want on the board, Neal's team has done their research I am sure and they know how high they will go.

Getting excited about an opening number by one side is not necessary.

Reminds me of some of my home sales of buyers and Sellers, Seller has a sale price, Buyer low balls him, Seller wants to throw him out before negotiations even begin.

Everyone has a right to make any offer they want, that is the American way. Do any of you buy a car from the sticker price? or is the first thing you do is try to negotiate?

Hos - sigh?  sorry buddy, but i dont always remember details from Feb 2008 articles. But thanks for the info nonetheless.

Re: Freddy's stance, I'm not quite where you are.  I think 15 or even 14 mill over 3 years would get it done from his perspective.  I also think he'd accept 12M over 2 years.

Reason: If I'm Freddy, if i dont accept offer, i assume 8M year for 2010, then 4-5M in free agency in 2011 from someone.  THat's 12-13M total for 2 years and (1) year 2 is not guaranteed, (2) i'm leaving Pittsburgh where i want to stay, and maybe will be on two different teams in 2010 and 2011, and (3) Wilson may accept his offer so additional reason to stay in Pittsburgh.  With these assumptions, I take 12M guaranteed for 2 years, plus quality of life advantages.  Tacking on $3M more (to get to $15M) for a third year?  I accept that too for guarantee, and possibility of my diminishing value 3 yrs out as I age.

It all comes down to what Sanchez uses as assumption of what he'll get on open market in 2010 and 2011.  

Reasons i DON'T think is will occur (meaning we lose Sanchez):

- Many, many times, players below the superstar level overestimate their free agency value, especially in out years.  Many times we see players (from OTHER teams not just ours) turn down guaranteed money and get less on open market.  It will take a lot for Freddy or any player to have the honesty to reject the overhyped projection of an agent

- I dont think PBC will go much beyond their offer...maybe a little in $, but my guess (based on Dejan's reporting of the years issue) not willing to go beyond 2 years because they believe someone somewhere in their system will be ready to play 2B.

Thunder,

IMO the Players Union would file a grievance and win if the Nuttings try to keep Freddy from reaching the 600 PA's while is healthy and playing as well as he is. (Gold Glove caliber fielding and .300+ ave....on a last place club no less).

Leadoff,

"I don't think PR has anything to do with this right now, except for the fact that the Pirates have a very sensitive fan base to every thing the Pirates do right now, large or small."

I completely agree with this statement.

This from the San Joes Mercury News:

"Garrett Jones, a 28-year-old minor league journeyman, hit his second homer of the game, a walk-off shot against Bob Howry,"

Let's hope his journey is over.

Garrett 'Real Deal' Jones

@pghboyinca...yep...Morgan got picked off Thursday night. Last night in the 1st inning he stole 2nd (which ESPN Baseball Tonight made sure to show twice). He then, one batter later,  got thrown out trying to steal 3rd on a strikeout throw out DP(which ESPN didn't show or mention).

A surprising stat from that game...Carlos Zambrano threw 40 pitches in the 1st inning of that game, the Nats only scored 1 run (unearned). And Zambrano stayed in the game long enough to get the win...3-1.

Drew,

I'm sorry buddy, the sigh was not intended for you.....

I think one thing you are discounting in your analysis about the 2 yr deal or the 3 yrs for $14M or $15M is the possibility of a trade.

IMO no way Freddy gives a significant home town discount without a full no trade clause.

Think about it. Assuming the 600 PA's and $8M is a given, he has that in pocket no matter what.

Now, why would he sign for a 2nd yr at $4M or 2 more years at $6M when he can turn free agent after the 2010 season and control his own destiny? Choosing where he wants to go and shopping his skills to the highest bidder?

IMO a lot of people are forgetting about the value players see in going free agent, down economy or not. Most of the time going free agent means the land of milk and honey for players. More money and the deliberate choice of where to go after having a club control his contract for 6 years and having no influence on where he might be traded.

No way he accepts that kind of home town discount when free agency and the ability to control his destiny is just a little over a year away and he can earn $8M during the year he waits for free agency.

Just not going to happen buddy, no matter how much we wish it could.

Hostage

One thing that has not been established for us to move forward on this discussion is Freddies True Value, today and in 2 yrs.

I don't know what it is, I am sure the Pirates do know what it is. I am not talking about the Pirates True Value for him, I am talking about baseballs true value for him.

Really doubt if the Pirates will win in the next 2-3 years with Sanchez & Wilson.  But there's a time for the front office to show some loyality to the players and fans and at least try to put a contender on the field.

These 5 year plans aren't working, mainly salary dumps.

Let NH and co. take less in salary, if the team needs money.

ON ANOTHER TOPIC:  Another projection...this time about 1B (not original, others have said this as well):

1. Adam finishes year in Pirates uniform because PBC get little or maybe NOTHING offered in return

2. Adam gone after this year, Jones in place.

3. PBC may get nothing in return for Adam's departure because they may be UNWILLING to offer arbitration to him (a requirement for compensation) because they may be concerned that he'll take arbitration...and he wont be worth the salary increase that arbitration will reward (i agree with this)

4. There's a chance that if Adam goes FA and gets low offers on open market, PBC may step in and offer a low offer as well for Adam...but...

5.  They will only do this if they've given up on Moss and believe they need Jones in outfield (which also assumes they think Milledge is not ready)

6. Therefore i think PBC will NOT offer arbitration, NOR will they offer a low FA contract to Adam.

So i stick to the projection: Adam plays entire year this year, gone in FA without qualifying arbitration offer, Jones at 1st next year, Milledge assuming Jones' outfield spot, Moss gets spot starts in OF and maybe at 1b.

NuHo...I agree on the grievance potential if he remains healthy and performs at an acceptable level...and I'm doubt it would even have to be his current level.

It would also bring into question whether the Pirates are actually trying to win games. And in my opinion...not putting a team that gives you your chance to win...what could be worse than that...other than actually throwing games?

Just wondering ...

If Garrett Jones continues his Roy Hobbsian march through the second half, will he have enough at bats to qualify for Rookie of the Year? I realize Cutch, with his 5-Tool self, may still have the inside track ... just wondering if Jones could come back next year as a rookie, if the at bats thing is where they draw the line.

If Garrett Jones signed a minor league contract, isn't he a free agent after the season?

Hos - my final thought on Sanchez...I hear you re: Sanchez probably unwilling to give discount.  Part of why i project he WONT take an offer with PBC.  I guess i'm speaking from my perspective...I think i would accept the discount as long as I get either a richer 2nd year or a 3rd year tacked on.  But as i said, i think it wont happen, so we're ending up at same spot.

dunno if this was already posted, but...

www.mlbtraderumors.com/.../sano-passes-age-investigation.html .

let the bidding war begin for MA Sano.

I hope this only a starting point with Freddie's contract--not take-it-or-leave it.  they should be able to negotiate a two year extension that everyone is happy with...unless Freddie wants more years.

If I am Freddie, here is the part that scares me: trying to predict what the free-agent market is going to be like.

Is there something about Freddie and/or his game that we're not seeing?  Do the new defense stats show that he is a below average fielder?  (because the boy can hit!)

I hate playing with other peoples money, but Adam La is going to be gone and G.Jones will make close to the minimum --there should be money to pay Freddie.

 JAL and Nuho,  That's my point if they don't sign Freddie they have to trade him, It would become an absolute circus. And you are right in that you can't just leave someone rotting o the bench but I believe if a team is 18 games out you can start playing some young guys  a minimum of a couple times a week under the guise of "need to see what we have".  Between that time off and his earlier rest and time off for his bad back we could be close to the 600 number. (how bad do you think the Pirates wished Duke was their only all star, thus having Freddy need a substancially higher number of Ab's to qualify).  They are indicating through their negotiating that they believe he is worth around 4 mil a year.

JimmyO - DK has informed us that the Pirates control Jones' rights for 6 years, now that he's been called up to the bigs. I guess it's all right there in his minor league contract.

tks Bay!

I don't think the FO is trying a PR move...I think the FO is trying to keep Freddy at what they think his value is now.

The problem is the $8m option.  At the time the deal was struck the $8m was not terribly offensive.

With the economy, the Pirates no longer see his value at $8m.  Neither do the potential trade partners apparently.

Freddy has earned it and he would be nuts to give it up (especially in this economy).

The Pirates would be nuts to give him $8m per year for 2 years.

I like Garrett Jones too but I wish he raise his RISP above .000 and his average with men on above .063.

Replacing Sanchez.

DK You seem  along with management to think he is replaceable. Lets see, a National League Batting championship, essentially batted .300 since 2005 his first full season with the Pirates. Has averaged 150 games per the 165 game season is a work horse for the pirates. Is one of the best double play combos in the entire major leagues. Has leadership experience, wants to win, 3 time all star.

Ya, that's the kinda guy I want to get rid of. FOOLS. This is exactly the type of player you keep! LaRoche bros ain't!

Obviously our management and supporters of such have never coached a team from the bench, played on a team that had such leaders, nor built a team to surround such a player.

FREDDIE, RUN, Get out of the burgh, its going no where with you or without  you. If you have to take a minor pay cut to get on a team with playoff hopes, aspirastions, quality management, quality coaching/managers, JUST DO IT. Double play champion just means a lot of guys are always on base against your team! RUN FREDDIE RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am gonna miss your highlights we see every other day.

Go Pittsburgh, City of Champions and the pirates

NuHo, Leadoff, Drew, et al....

In the event that the Wilson/Sanchez discussions net zero results, thought this might be of interest out of the LA Times this morning.  The Angels need pitching and though the PBC has no one of Halladay's stature, perhps a package could be toggled together that addresses both their starting and bullpen needs?  

Just food for thought...Trade talk

"Reagins says he is uncertain whether the Angels can make a trade. With two weeks before the trading deadline, he said many teams have yet to decide whether they will put veterans on the market.

The club has pursued Toronto's Roy Halladay, arguably the best pitcher in baseball, but club officials are not confident they can satisfy the Blue Jays in a trade.

The Angels would consider trading infielder Brandon Wood, their top prospect, but they would be hesitant to include one of their major league pitchers -- think Jered Weaver, Joe Saunders or Ervin Santana -- at a time they have three pitchers on the disabled list.

The priority appears to be a late-inning reliever to set up closer Brian Fuentes. Reagins chose his words carefully when asked whether the Angels could afford to trade a major league pitcher.

"We'll make the best deal we can, not only for this season but for future seasons," Reagins said. "We're not going to weaken ourselves in certain areas to fill a temporary need."

And on Wood . . .

Wood played shortstop extensively this season at triple-A Salt Lake, but Manager Mike Scioscia said he did not envision Wood playing there for the Angels.

"With the way Erick is playing now, and the way Izzy is playing now, that's not a position where we have a need," Scioscia said, referring to Erick Aybar and Maicer Izturis.

Scioscia said Wood would play first base and third base.."

Morning mates, good tidings to all

IMO, sometimes this FO is like a soap opera and you never know what their motives are, thats the thing that keeps me on the fence regarding whether I trust them or not.

The offer to Freddy is comical and sad at the same time.

No wonder the PBC has the reputation it does

Bay is correct--A minor league FA is not the same as MLB FA. He has very little time in the majors so for the next 3 years the Pirates control what is paid, and for the 3 after that he will be eligible for arbitration.

Personally, I am less concerned with Garrett Jones but would be happy if Virgil Vasquez could improve his 6.52 era, 1.70 WHIP, and .384 OBA.

He is making the entire national league look like batting champions.

But that's just me.....

One more thing on Jones--he has no options left

Hostage

Agree--Vasquez provides no confidence.

Bizrow,

Funny about perceptions, I actually feel the opposite about this FO.  I feel like I know exectly what their motives are and that is to increase the viability and quality of the organization.  I think they've made that clear in both word and action.

I like the way NH operates in that he is focused and unwavering in his vision.  The Sanchez offer is another example, I think, in that he's attached value to both players and will deal from that starting point.   If he can strike a deal within what he feels are fair parameters he will.  If not, and the deal exceeds what he feels is fair and market value then he'll look at alternatives.  It's all based on the ultimate goal of getting better return on the investment whether that investment is dollars or players.

I also can't help but feel if he put his best offer on the table now then he'd be accused of leaving dollars on the table and poor negotiating.

Once again, just different perceptions based on the level of trust.  No right or wrong.

Virgil Vasquez could improve his 6.52 ERA if he would learn to cover first base.

Hard to tell what the Pirates think of him, he only has a couple of starts.

Socaldonn

I completely agree with your assesement of the FO.

Bizrow,

I completely agree with your thoughts on the front office.

leadoff

According to Dejan in today's notebook Vasquez is on a short leash--another poor start and Karstens may be moved back into the rotation.

@socaldonn

Good legitimate response, I guess the thing that gets to me with this is my perception of a low ball offer to Freddy, 2 for 10 isn't right when you have already signed/negotiated for an 8.1 million year, not gurarenteed of course, but makeable.

Now if they offered 3 yrs, say 15-16 million, I would feel better about the legitimacy of their attempts

Yes, different perceptions of the messages ; }

Ants marching?

DK:

Garrett Jones is 28 years old -- June 28, 1981 -- not the 29 mentioned in the first sentence of the game story.

@JAL...if you are correct on Jones in regard to options (and I have no reason to doubt you)...he will be with the Pirates for the remainder of the season...barring a trade...even if he hits .150. If they were to try to send him down...someone will claim him on waivers. And with the way he's hit the last 2 weeks...that's a sure bet.

@Bizrow,

And that may be where the negotiations eventually end up.  Only NH knows.  ;-)

I, for one, am marching.  See you on the other side.....

To those who feel the FO knows what it is doing and building for a playoff run in the immediate future. RUN FREDDIE RUN!! RUN WILSON RUN!! RUN JONES RUN!! RUN all pirates Free Agents run! Leave this debacle team of embarassment to us fansto suffer till the team is sold at a gain for the owners. This organization is a joke. I am shocked anyone thinks we are trying to build. FO is cheap, and happy to play less than .500 ball. AM I THE ONLY PERSON WHO COULD HEAR THE CROWD at Last nights 2-1 victory? The entire game it was almost TOTAL SILENCE! Turn on a Giants home game, dodgers, yankees, red sox game. They scream from 1st pitch to last, because they think they can win. WE WERE SILENT even in the 9th!  Its a joke, we are crushed mentally during the game. We wait for the inevitable loss!

Lets see we could have on this team right now: Bay, McLouth, Morgan, Jones, McClutch, Sanchez, Wilson.. We could, we should and we don't.

I have listened to the whys and looking to the future. Don't see it. Hitting is horrible at this point,we average 3 runs per game IMO, starting pitching is semi strong. Only thing saving us from being the worst team in the majors (we are bottom 5 folks!) is the middle relief corps. How we are building for the future, again with one of the worst records in baseball I don't get it. So if you are impressed with Pirates FO non moves this summer and the trades this season and last. Shocked is the most polite thing I can say about that..

Go Pittsburgh, City of champions and Pirates under .500 ball going on 17 years, and at this point, looks like potentially 19 years in a row!

David

Before I march

Pirates Fan --If you have been reading the posts you should know Jones is not going to be a FA--Pirates control him for the next 6 years.

@PFS1960...I was at the game, and yes it was quieter than a lot of Giants and A's games I've been to.  But it was a pitchers' duel for the most part, and I've learned that they do tend to be quieter here when the offense isn't exploding.  That there was a crows of 26000 after the rain delay and chilly evening says something though -- normally folks leave just because of that.  Having said that, there was more noise, I think, in the stands than you heard on TV.  

That's my take, at least.  

IMHO, Huntington and the entire FO are at a cross-roads regarding their credibility to players and agents.

First Huntington negotiates a contract with McLouth, calls him a "corner stone" type player, then trades him for a AAA pitcher and a bag of chips and orchestrates a chorus of disparagement on McLouth's accomplishments on McLouth's way out of town.

Next, he negotiates a contract with Freddy Sanchez and when he finds out maybe he can't trade Sanchez, he puts a last minute low ball offer on the table effectively reneging on the contract he and Sanchez presumably made in good faith.

The former Pirate players are now scattered around MLB and you can bet the work of the Bucco front office is not getting rave reviews. It's a good thing Huntington wants to build through the draft because there is no way any FA is going to sign with this team except at a serious premium. I'm sure Scott Boras is already plotting a way to get Alvarez out of town ASAP.

The Pirates could look across the way and study how well managed sports teams operate, but they are way too focused on the financial bottom line.

JAL... Great  news/Thanks.. Cept IMO, if Jones  performs, he then will be traded based on what I have seen. So RUN JONES RUN!

BFGRAD. Well written! I sure hope you are wrong and I am a raving  crazy pirates fan. Cept so far my thinking/screaming is proving to be more correct than those whom seem content to wait another 5 years and viewPirates  FO and results with a more matrure type level of observation :----)

Oh well, its all we got till they get sold. Go Pirates vs Giros as they are called by the locals to me in San Fran. (GIRO Sandwich!).

cheers

David

BFGRAD,   I agree completely!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!