Morning links: All-Star Tuesday

Anybody read Smiziks blog notice the comment from pig boy in calif.

Quotes that this blog is the personal playground of about 15 different people who write to each other about 20 times each day to make others believe we know what we are talking about.

We are the hijackers, and this blog has been hijacked  LOL

If you read the predictions from earlier there were what 120 different ones. Unless Bay and POH are one in the same...hmmm maybe that is why POH never showed up to a bay game. Gotta run too late to bed and grass never gets mowed in the A.M.

Indiana - Plenty and I DID show up at a game together. It was the BayDay Gathering on Sunday, June 28. Had a swell time!

Good Day Bayver

Who are those two guys kissing in your avatar, and i was only kidding about you and POH being one and the same.  Gotta get to a game in PGH this year.

Indy - That's Ricky Henderson holding back Milledge in a game while he was with the Mets. Seems he didn't like a call the ump made!

Any fire he brings to the Pirates these days will be welcome, I'm sure.

indiana-You mean this statement?

I hope you are not referring to Dejan's blog as a way to measure sentiment. DK is tremendous and that blog is very nicely done, there are a few knowledgeable folks on there but it has been basically over run by around 15 folks who post 20 times a  day to hear the sound of their own voice. I have talked with a ton of folks who read DK's stuff but don't read the comments or post because it is basically "private" chat room. There are a lot of middle aged folks who have too many frat Pirate memories to completely give up.

I can bookmark that post from time to time so that the 15  folks who post 20 times a  day to hear the sound of their own voice can be reminded.________________________ Also that way the" ton of folks who read DK's stuff but don't read the comments or post because it is basically "private" chat room" don't waste their time.

Not sure if it was already discussed in the earlier topics, but Jorge Arangure said in a Twitter reply to someone that he puts the chances of the Pirates signing Sano at 90%.

twitter.com/.../2620546682

He's been saying Pirates all along, but I never got the impression that he saw them as having a 90% chance.

I figured I'd reply in here, with the higher traffic...but re: Sanchez

Pigs,

I think once pitchers start throwing breaking balls to Sanchez, he may come back to earth a bit. I'm truly plling for him and haven't seen him in person, but I feel like maybe the guys down at A are giving him some fastballs and don't have the book on him just yet. We shall see.

With Lynchburg @ Potomac, and (B)Lastings down with the Hillcats, I may have to get on over there and try to get a sneak peak. Hmmm.

Yeah I said it and meant it and a lot of people feel that way. The fact that you have to respond to it and maz make s a point of posting on it and saying it he will bookmark it is laughable. There are some here that actually have a rationale thought process, Maz isn't among them. Oh thats right, he was a back up catcher in community college 30 years ago so that makes him the board "guru". LOL

 Posting 10 or more times a day here every day is more of a reflection of having no family , friends, or life, than devotion to a sports team. JAl, NuHO,joeybats, Jerseyjoe, capn, jhadar, and darylthe piratefan, are some who have posted things that I found well thought out and there are others that i can't remember the posting names.

  Gee Maz it has been over 24 hours since you changed your avatar, shouldn't you be be looking for a new one to change your "look"? Must be a rich fulfilling life you lead when the highlight of your day is finding your new avatar for the chart board.  

indianafanatic wrote re: Morning links: All-Star Tuesday

on Tue, Jul 14 2009 5:58 AM

Anybody read Smiziks blog notice the comment from pig boy in calif

Indiactic, under what blog heading is those comments?

Indiatic,  I sat next to bay at the game he is claiming to have been at with POH.  I saw POH at that game.  I never saw the two of them at the same time during or after the game.

MAZ,  same question to you, where is that conversation?  Also, i see this comment every so ofton, Bookmark, what is that?

jnn wrote re: Morning links: All-Star Tuesday

on Tue, Jul 14 2009 6:53 AM

Not sure if it was already discussed in the earlier topics, but Jorge Arangure said in a Twitter reply to someone that he puts the chances of the Pirates signing Sano at 90%.

Who is this fellow?  What significance is there to his saying that?  Without the background work information it sems to get the same ending I came to yesterday, if the talks are close he will be a Pirate.

Arangure works for ESPN, covering Intl. Signings or something to that effect. He seems pretty credible, though he's waffled a bit.

pghboyinca wrote:, Where?

First off, thanks.

But, I do believe Maz adds food for much thought even if he is like a kid in a cany store with his not so new found love of change of cloths.  At least he keeps his on, not so always like his contemplative cousin.

Some of us page down and some like MAZ put things on the front page.

I thank for for your nice comment but ask you to extend your graciousness to MAZ as well.

JJ- look over to the left on this page under Pirate blogs.

Thanks Yotem,

Funny, how Sanchex is hitting the cover off the ball and you high light that he is probably gettin a alot of fast balls to hit, But there were complaints that Pedro was not getting any pitches to hit because everyone was pitching around him and the pitchers were not good enough for him to get the pitches to hit.

So, we move Pedro up with many of us saying, watch he will hit better since he will have not to chase the ball around the park to get a strike and in the same breath we get out lets move sanchez up to begin his overpowering offense at a higher level.

Does this mean that pedro comes to bat with such a loud marquis That lower level managers would rather put him on then teach their pitchers how to get him out?

Does this mean that sanchez comes to the plate as a .450 hitter and with history there are no attempts to alter the pitches thrown to him?

I am inclined to ponder, maybe this kid plain and simple has a good eye.  Maybe a better eye than the eyes that have been joking about his pick?

Maybe he hits nothing in triple A, but to his early look, he is looking good painting by the numbers.

Maz, I am looking but I am not seeing?  what is the exact heading?

JJ-

I agree about Sanchez. Maybe he's better than most thought. His work ethic alone gives me a fair amount of hope, as I've always felt that if you're willing to put in the work, you'll reap the rewards. So far, Sanchez has my faith.

Yotum, you bring to point words right out of Sanchez's mouth on draft day.  he said he would start right away and work hard every day to get to the big leagues and fulfill the asperations given him by the pirates.

Whats not to like about a kid like that?

JJ -Here's the link

Bob Smizik's Blog

Where?

JJ- Look to the left of the post of jnn at 1:53 AM eastern time.

Good morning inmates near and far. Refresh my memory, when was the last time the NL won an All Star game? Has Home run derby outlived it's time, or is it still a worthwhile, enjoyable event? DK enjoy another well deserved day off.  And do we know who the Giants starter will be Friday? Go Bucs.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<  PROSPECT WATCH  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Today’s Topic =  STARTING PITCHING (stats thru 7/13/09)

Tom Gorzelanny – LHP – Indy (2nd Round,  2003 Draft )

3-3,  2.77 ERA ** 12 Games  68.1 IP 58 H  2HR 64 K 25 BB

Daniel McCutchen – RHP –Indy (obtained in X.Nady trade)

8-5,   4.37 ERA ** 16 G   90.2 IP  93 H  8 HR  70 K  23BB

Eric Hacker – RHP – Indy (obtained from Yanks for Romey Sanchez)

3-4,  4.90 ERA ** 16 G  82.2 IP  94 H  5 HR  55 K  34 BB

Brad Lincoln – RHP – Altoona & Indy (1st Round, 2006 Draft)

2-6,   2.69 ERA ** 16 G   90.1 IP 79 H  6 HR  77 K  26 BB

Dan Moskos – LHP – Altoona (1st Round, 2007 Draft)

6-7,  4.20 ERA  **  18 G  96.1 IP  114 H  7 HR 43 K  38 BB

Mike Crotta – RHP –Altoona (17th Round, 2006 Draft)

4-4,   4.61 ERA ** 17 G  93.2 IP  111 H  4 HR  61 K  19 BB

Jared Hughes – RHP – Altoona (4th Round, 2006 Draft)  on D/L

1-4,   1.91 ERA ** 7 G   28.1 IP 26 H  0 HR  19 K   10 BB

Bryan Morris – RHP – Lynchburg (part of JBay trade)

2-4,  6.00 ERA ** 7 G   30  IP  35 H  1 HR  15 K  16 BB

Jeff Locke – LHP – Lynchburg (part of N.McLouth trade)

2-7,  5.40 ERA ** 17 G  78.1 IP 94 H  3HR 62 K 35 BB

Ronald Uviedo – RHP –Lynchburg (on Pirate 40 man roster) on D/L

5-3,   3.18 ERA ** 13 G  68 IP  69 H  6 HR  58 K   13 BB

Justin Wilson – LHP – Lynchburg (5th Round, 2008 Draft)

3-6,   6.50 ERA ** 16 G  63.2 IP  81 H   12 HR  49 K   33 BB  

Rudy Owens – LHP-West Virginia (28th Round, 2006 Draft)

10-1,  1.77 ERA **  17 G, 91.2 IP  66 H  8 HR   82 K  13BB

Brian Leach – RHP- West Virginia (25th Round, 2008 Draft)

3-0    1.67 ERA  **  22 Games   59.1 IP  43 H  3 HR  46 K 20 BB  

Duke Welker – RHP –West Virginia (2nd Round, 2007 Draft)

0-9,   5.18 ERA ** 18 G  74.2 IP  68 H  5 HR  53 K   54 BB

Quinton Miller – RHP – St College & West Virginia (20th Rd, 2008 Draft)

0-1,  4.50 ERA ** 4 G, 16 IP 15 H 0 HR   12 K   7 BB

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Morning Links Part 2

Pirates lefty Zach Duke mingles with top talent

www.tribune-democrat.com/.../local_story_194234555.html

Rinku Singh makes history

www.heraldtribune.com/.../SPORTS

India-born Pirates farmhand gets win

www.google.com/.../ALeqM5gufLw_geoRucUnOYAwVuFh59LZeQD99DS27O0

Future is far away

www.observer-reporter.com/.../07-14-Future-is--editorial

Mehno: 'Intrigue' over Jones might not last

www.timesonline.com/.../doc4a5961f8de3d7078303566.txt

Bucs at break: Good, bad and ugly

www.timesonline.com/.../doc4a5c03269efaa468518476.txt

In the Mehno link there is a item about Charlie Feeney, its worth the click.

I add to the story by saying, I met charlie around 1978-79 and what could have been just an hello, he turned into something to remember, what  a nice guy.

Radio Wave,  I thought it more entertaining an event at the allstar game when eddie feigner could strike out the allstar team side, either league.

Its not something I would sit around and watch, but it has is fans and if the pros like doing it, what the heck?

THE OFFICIALLY UNOFFICIAL PBC BLOGS AND MLB LINKS:

BLeacher Report-Slideshow-Ryan Leaf Effect: The Pittsburgh Pirates Draft Story Part 1

bleacherreport.com/.../216898-ryan-leaf-effect-the-pittsburgh-pirates-draft-story-part-1

Bleacher Report--Slideshow--Ryan Leaf Effect: The Pittsburgh Pirates Draft Story Part Two

bleacherreport.com/.../217506-ryan-leaf-effect-the-pittsburgh-pirates-draft-story-part-2

Bleacher Report--Pittsburgh Pirates' Predisposition for Pitchers: Draft and Trade Choices

bleacherreport.com/.../217069-pittsburgh-pirates-predisposition-for-pitchers-draft-and-trade-choices

Bleacher Report--The 2009 West Virginia Power: Get Excited Pirates Fans

bleacherreport.com/.../217626-the-2009-west-virginia-power-get-excited-pirates-fans

Bucs Dugout-Pirate Draft Review

www.bucsdugout.com/.../pirates-draft-review

Bucs Dugout-News Roundup

www.bucsdugout.com/.../news-roundup-90-likelihood-of

Bucs Dugout--Kovacevic: Sanchez Trade Will be Motivated by Money (Charlies takes on Dejan)

www.bucsdugout.com/.../kovacevic-sanchez-trade-will-be

WhyGavs--Brandon Moss and Garrett Jones (Pat Lackey takes on Dejan)

whygavs.com/.../brandon-moss-and-garrett-jones.html

Pittsburgh Lumber Company--Thoughts of a once sane fan - The blown lead

mvn.com/pittsburghlumberco

Sandlot Swashbucklers-Walker Homers for Bradenton; Singh Earns First Win

mvn.com/sandlotswashbucklers

Raise the Jolly Roger--Pictures and thoughts from Citizens Bank Park

raisethejollyroger.com/.../pictures-and-thoughts-from-citizens-bank-park

Hyzdu Headquarters--Columbia- The New Baseball Hotbed?

hyzduhq.blogspot.com/.../columbia-new-baseball-hotbed.html

The Green Weenie--All-Star Appetizer

oldbucs.blogspot.com/.../all-star-appetizer.html

The Green Weenie-Here Today, Gone Tomorrow

oldbucs.blogspot.com/.../here-today-gone-tomorrow.html

Pirate Home Page--Duke, Sanchez take in All-Star spectacle

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

Bob Smizuik Blog

community.post-gazette.com/.../default.aspx

Rumbunter--Is Sano Really A Sophomore?

rumbunter.com/.../is-sano-really-a-sophomore

MLB Transactions

www.cbssports.com/.../transactions

Bucco Fans--Jam Packed Pirates Trade Market Preview

www.buccofans.com/.../jam-packed-pirates-trade-market-preview.html

Bucco Fans--Draft Pick Signing Tracker

www.buccofans.com/.../2009-pittsburgh-pirates-draft-pick.html

By Gosh, It's Langosch--All-Star Monday: Duke, Sanchez get the spotlight; now it's Derby time

bucsbits.mlblogs.com/.../all-star_monday_duke_sanchez_g.html

MLB Trade Rumors

www.mlbtraderumors.com/pittsburgh_pirates

Rdaio

Nations league last won in 1996--6-0 in Veterans Stadium, Philly

It just hit me, we are at the time of tail of the tape.  Scott Paulsen sad it again yesterday on his radio talk show.  A fan wrote in saying that I know you are behins this management team completely , but I am not  bla bla bla.

Scott went on the answer the letter by saying he is behins the FO, has liked the moves.

He said he believes that we have the right GM to take this team to the playoffs, he aslo said he knows we have the right man as the president to do it.

In a very short time we have flooded our top of the picks list from others pick lists.

We have moved players up and out, releasing players at various levels, probably because they have been replaced with better prospects.

This half we should turn over to the young guys so we can decide which we want and which we will give another shot to by someone else.

www.youtube.com/watch

OK, Maz, i found it and it seems to be no big deal.  Maybe because I am not sure which group is which?

One stat jumps out at me from Joey Bats' posting...

"Tom Gorzelanny – LHP – Indy (2nd Round,  2003 Draft )

3-3,  2.77 ERA ** 12 Games  68.1 IP 58 H  2HR 64 K 25 BB"

His ERA was much closer to 4.00 than 3.00 when he was called up as a reliever a few months ago. His walk numbers haven't gone up much in that time as well. I wouldn't mind seeing him replace Vazquez in the rotation. Vazquez to me seems like he is more or less "Jeff Karstens, Part II". Serviceable NL guy, good for a spot start or bullpen duty, but really not someone I'd have a great deal of confidence running out there every 5th day.

Good morning all.

I think it is wrong to refer to other posters as "pig boy." You can like or not like what they have to say, and to be honest, I could not locate the original post, but that is no reason to start with the name-calling.

In re: giving the young players a chance. It is really interesting to read many of the same folks who predicted success for the franchise being supportive of getting rid of the vets through trades and such in order to "see what the young guys can do."

I seriously do not see what the benefit is of having lineup so young that there is minimal experience top to bottom. In any successful organization, the most effective way to bring up new talent is to have mentors available to the new folks to not only show them the ropes but to set a positive example. These mentors should be "there" for the new folks to note good actions and help redirect them when they (as we all do) mess up.

The other leg of that stool is that you are also placing the burden of the streak and the expectations of others for wins on a group that may not be capable of providing that. How much damage, then, are you will to risk to players early in their career by putting them in situations where they will fail?

Jose

PGHboyinca,

I guess i have found the sentances.  I think it fair to your opinion to have.  I see nothing wrong with it  no big deal exceptin a slip with the remark to maz.

if I have missed it I am sorry.

jose, I would think it most logical to follow your plan.  It is the reason I have supported the extensions of the guys up the middle.

It seems to me that one who would have supported the trades would also be one who supports the playing of the young guys.

@ JJ: Yet you see no problem with indianafanatic calling the poster "pig boy."

That demonstrates some validity towards the poster's contention that there is a "private" atmosphere that has developed here.

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Jose, I am thinking the pirates have decided pretty much that we will not see pedro or tabata on the team at the start of next season.

Since they have played tabata in center its easy to guess they feel he will be able to play any of the positions.

Some are hinting pedro will have an elongated glove when he gets here.

We have not much in replacement players for first base.  We have none for second or short.

Gorkies park fits in the mix down the line.

Now is the perfect time to take serious looks at Moss, Bones, Young, you know the rest.

For your very reason to post this morning I have sadi all along is the biggest reason to only take big time stuff for either of the guys up the middle.

I think if you check out the stories you will see NH has said in so many words it myth that the Buccos are trying to play the second half without the up the middle boys.

Jose, I see big problem with that I never saw it and if you followed the conversation fromthe beginning you will see I was responding tp maz about the comment about 15 people and that was it.

In no where did i say that ok and shame on you for insinuating I would be fine with that.  Double shame.

I agree with Jose, should not call each other or other people names.  Calling someone a derogatory name is not an opinion or an argument.  

There are a number of people who see this as playground for a few posters.  I happen to think they are missing the forest for the trees.  Having been here since near the beginning I have seen numerous people become regular posters.  

I have no exhausting list but if you back to end of last season I do think you would find about half of the people who post on a day were not posting then.  

This is an open forum and as long as one follows the guide to commenting your post will appear here and stay here.  

It does get rough sometimes but that what makes a blog.  If it was a personal playground we would not have some of the arguments we have.  There are people her who think the the current FO is doing a good job, some who think every move is bad, some who reserve judgment.

There are wide variety of ages and locations here.  

Huntington also said before the season that they were playing to win and trying to improve the team (i.e the MLB club) result from last season.

DK is reporting (from a good source, apprently, otherwise he would not have used it) that the PBC is shopping Freddie.

If that is what he is saying I really don't believe NH at this point.

Note, jose,  When I first read the first post of this thread I thought to myself, what a strange name to pick.  When I just went back to find what your referance was to, Following simple english and not having a referance to anything other, i still see it as a direct mention to someone with a choice of a bad name.

If you further seek the truth, you wiill see that i amde numerous attempts tpo find that post on my own only to have the help of several  to see what was being talked about.

yet, you suggest I found and saw a clear cut bad use of the language and it was ok as suggested to some clandestined outcome strived for.

Silly Silly man.

I am thinking that the return of the true prince of fantasy among us in the name of JLP has gotten to you.

Jose: true story, 1976 I meet one who was to become a good friend of mine in the MP corp.  he was from iowa and grew up on a farm.

I told him of a fellow I knew who gave himself the name pigman for some strange reason.  My pal said makes all the sense to me we use to have them as housepets.

"Tom Gorzelanny – LHP – Indy (2nd Round,  2003 Draft )

3-3,  2.77 ERA ** 12 Games  68.1 IP 58 H  2HR 64 K 25 BB"

@ ALL  

I believe GORZO is as ready as he is going to be to step back in to our rotation. I believe the timing would be perfect with it being the break and Vazquez getting beat around.

Look Vazquez seems like a great  guy but honestly he's a serviceable starter at best and Gorzo has already won 14 games in a season.

Could it be that the arbitration disadvantage be the reason the FO has not called him up? if so they should be ashamed of themselves.

Jose, you missed the update: there has been a dramatic backing off to the earliest of rumors.  That by DK himself.

@ JAL: I would tend to disagree on a couple of points, but for the most part I support what you said.

@ JJ: You made numerous mentions of the offending post including inquiries for links. You took the time to search out the post, yet now I am somehow "shamed" for insinuating that you missed the comment by the other poster? Sorry, but this occured in the very first post of this thread. I mean, how could one miss it?

Jose

No new information in this piece, but always good to be mentioned in a newspaper in one of the largest countries in the world:

timesofindia.indiatimes.com/.../4775660.cms

macsinthebox wrote re: Morning links: All-Star Tuesday

on Tue, Jul 14 2009 2:32 PM

"Tom Gorzelanny – LHP – Indy (2nd Round,  2003 Draft )

3-3,  2.77 ERA ** 12 Games  68.1 IP 58 H  2HR 64 K 25 BB"

@ ALL  

I believe GORZO is as ready as he is going to be to step back in to our rotation. I believe the timing

From what is written it sure does seem that way.  I just wonder to his mitigating circumstances:  Is he doing it to the tune of his projected progress areas?

If he is and it is not just a case of facing bad hitting line ups, then by all means I am thinking he has earned the shot.

I think the magic Karstens has earned another shot at his ride.

I think he has pitched well enough to give another shot to and see can he sustain it from the top of the mound to the end?

Lets see where each one goes?  

If there is anyone living in fantasy here, it surely is not me.

DK is reporting that deal is not "imminent." I do not believe he has backed off the story that the PBC is shopping Freddie.

Neal has also said that people are calling him, so I don't think the "shopping" has ceased.

@ Gregenstein

It can't happen quick enough.  T. Gorzy needs to be in the rotation.  He has basically pitched @ Indy since the middle of last season (not saying he didn't deserve a demotion) and has earned the right to be put back into the top 5.  He also pitched well in his relief stint this year.  His velocity looked like it was in the low 90s (although it could be from the relief role)...92,93...His walks aren't bad, which shows he may have worked through the control problems he was having last season.  From 2007, we know that Tommy G. can get it done.

Virgil Vasquez is not any sort of answer.  It is consistent with the fact that mgt is essentially throwing things at the wall right now to see if any of them stick.  Until guys like Rudy Owens, Bryan Morris, Jeff Locke, Danny Moskos, Quenton Miller, and all the other young pitchers at A & AA are ready, we will have to watch some crazy 5th starters.

@ Jose

I am one of those same folks who wants essentially all of our "veterans" traded.  Basically 2 reasons....

1) I know what I'm getting with the current group. Mediocrity.  The PBC's major leaguers are so average to poor that I don't want to watch them any more.  Yeah Freddy is good, but don't you think something is wrong when Freddy Sanchez is your superstar?  Again, I ask, would Freddy Sanchez be a now 3-time All-Star if he were on a different team?  How about if he would've stayed with Boston?

2) I want to watch young guys that have "supposed" high upsides, not "veterans" who have peaked and will not get any better.  I'd rather watch a young team lose in the hopes that they can learn, develop, and get better than an old one that has no hope of climbing out of the cellar.

As for your mentor theory, these can be bench veterans that fill in once the "real core" of this team takes shape.  Like Hinske with TB last season or Dirty Doug for our Buccos.  They don't need to be 9 year veterans who have lost every year (no offense Jack W., I love your D, but 9 years of losing for both parties........I think it's time for a fresh start for both of us.  I wish you the best Jack.) and have become jaded by that fact so now they pop off about anything they don't agree with.  Let our young guys find their way.  Let them come together as a team 1st, then let the fringe veterans show that how to win.  Also, there is a complete coaching staff in place for these very things.

Why do I always seem to write so much??? (maybe another new username?????) ;)

@ gregenstein: I think you need more than a Hinske to mentor young players.

To use a military analogy, you just don't take your most inexperienced infantrymen out to do something difficult. Otherwise you would soon have very few inexperienced infantrymen left.

I don't believe in sending boys to face men.

Jose

Jose

Fair enough, thanks

Now I must be off for meeting --back mid-afternoon.

Carry on

Jose, it is clear i never found the post.  I tkanked maz for telling me what it was about.

The fact that I searched it out says i wanted to know with my own eyes what was being talked about.

I left it with hat was posted by at least three people what was said.

if there was another mention to pig whatever other than the first line of this thread, i still have not seen that.

Also, Jose check how one could miss it with the complete and rest of the story up above.

Think about it:  I start with the first post and say to myself what a strage name.

I then follow that post and since there was no that before pig boy i thought a second referance to a name not a name calling.

I have now come to the understanding that I guess pig boy is a direct name calling to pghfaninca.  

At no time did anyone until you woke up bring a zero in on that opening line?

Tell you the truth my followup questions to maz were about the book marking concept, I was not sure for some time what his answers were referring to you.

There were 11 differant posters before your first post who brought it to ones attention to include the sherriff and the poster of rules.

Another bit of light that you chose to omit, I did make it clear that the comments about Maz were in poor taste.  The only clear out of line in the early morning rush comment and to this  time am the only one who has mentioned that out line comment including you,so what is your agenda?

@ Macsinthebox

I think keeping Gorzo down is the right thing to do. He had every opportunity to stick last year which would have took him to arbitration.

40 games or so left, I say sure throw him into the rotation...Now? Absolutely not.

Snell should be recalled and they should see if his head is right and if Doumit catching him makes a difference. It is going to be easier to trade him (if we can) if he is in the rotation again.

thatts no ones attention

"I don't believe in sending boys to face men."

====================================================

@ Jose,

But that's how I think we make men out of our boys.  Make them compete against men, learn from their failures, correct weaknesses, develop strengths.  I do think we have a good coaching staff in place (although I'm still very low on JR with some of the decisions he makes), that can teach these kids how to be successful.  

Just to rebut here, but you said....

"To use a military analogy, you just don't take your most inexperienced infantrymen out to do something difficult. Otherwise you would soon have very few inexperienced infantrymen left."

How do you think you get experienced infantrymen?  Boys gotta grow up some time.  Iif you lose some infantrymen, you bring in reinforcements (minor leagues) to see if they can get the job done.  As I said, Boys gotta grow up some time.   I'd rather that be sooner instead of wasting more time on players that have no chance of helping this team ever be a contender.  The only way they can help is to bring in young players through trades.  We are on the way, you just gotta stay the course a little bit longer.  Have faith brotha, have faith!

Why Didn't I get to see Roberto? wrote re: Morning links: All-Star Tuesday

on Tue, Jul 14 2009 3:25 PM

"I don't believe in sending boys to face men."

 You make good points.   There were not many experienced infantrymen on D DAY.  They all were the day after.

first time posting, been reading the blog daily for about a year. finally time i post.

Regarding tony sanchez, he is the real deal. he's not going to hit for power like doumit. but he's going to hit for average and he is gonna be an above average defender.

for everyone who thinks the pbc is going to be better off with freddy ur wrong. hits for average, double machine, and underated at 2nd. your not going to get a better replacement for 6 to 8 mil.

Dongta wrote re: Morning links: All-Star Tuesday

very valid counterpoint.  I think it an edge to walk with Gorzo.

Snell's edge is tricky and  sharp.  

sum1savus wrote re: Morning links: All-Star Tuesday

on Tue, Jul 14 2009 3:43 PM

first time posting, been reading the blog daily for about a year. finally time i post.

welcome, the regular folks who like to talk about the drugs and stuff will be here soon enough

Good morning asylum, good to see Rinku get his first win thats a step in the right direction for the organization!! (that was sarcastically said of course)

"There were not many experienced infantrymen on D DAY.  They all were the day after."

====================================================

Thanks Jersey Joe.  Exactly my point.  Our boys can listen all they want and watch "veterans" play, but they won't actually learn anything until they're in "the sh*t" (to use a phrase from Vietnam or any war), experiencing these things for themselves.

sum1savus

Welcome to the asylum!

Sum1savus

Welcome, and i absolutely agree about Tony Sanchez. When i saw his quote after being drafted and about his work ethic and that he wanted to play right away and didnt care too much about the money, i thought wow we have something special.  

Also, when you were talkin about freddy, did you mean to say without freddy, because everything you said made it seem like thats what you meant. it also showed that we wouldn't be better off without him.

About Gorzo, I think its time he comes up. He's proven himself in the league before I think with how well hes doing in indy, he deserves a call up. Who knows, maybe he'll be the next duke

;)

macs

"Could it be that the arbitration disadvantage be the reason the FO has not called him up? if so they should be ashamed of themselves."

Bob Nutting does own the team, so I wouldn't rule that out. He doesn't exactly like to spend.

Jose -

>>Huntington also said before the season that they were playing to win and trying to improve the team (i.e the MLB club) result from last season.<<

Such statements from NH and FC illustrate why I feel the FO is often disingenuous at least with their words. NH could easily say that "improving the team" applies to the bigger picture of the organization in the short term and improving the MLB in the future. Personally, I don't like that way of bending words. But that's just me.

As for "playing to win," I took that with a grain of salt. Who would come out and say "we're not playing to win"? Still, I would rather he not say anything at all than spout something like that which is hot air.

I can only hope FC and NH are trying to do the right thing. But I wish they would keep their mouths shut a lot more often and not say things that make them look disingenuous.

"your not going to get a better replacement for 6 to 8 mil."

======================================================

Maybe not in the next 24 hrs, but with the draft, int'l signings, and trades, who knows what kind of 2B and SS prospects we'll have coming up.  Could find the next Hanley or Pedroia.  You never know.  And they'll certainly be younger than 31.  

As I've said before, Freddy is a good 2B, but would he be as noticed on a better team?  Of course not.  Freddy is our superstar, and that is a problem.  Bob Walk said it correctly when he said the PBC needs better players.  2B included!

I'm right there with you on T. Sanchez though.  Kid is killing the ball in A, and I'd like to see how he fares when he gets to Altoona.  Hopefully, his speedy rise makes it easier to move Ryan "Glass Man" Doumit.

Also, Yotum

Thanks for that info about Sano. That pretty much just made my day

:)

Sum1savus -

Welcome aboard to posting here in the asylum. And if you have been reading carefully, you will know you only have to write 19 more times today to qualify as one of the 15 or so here who write to each other every day. ;-)

buc fan

"Also, Yotum

Thanks for that info about Sano. That pretty much just made my day

:)"

I still don't, and won't, believe that were going to sign him until it happens.

Write here.  That is one for me today.  ;-)

PghBoyinCA -- Thanks for the compliment, I'm not sure I think everything I write out that well, but I do like this team.  That said, I was only mildly insulted by the insinuation that posting here 10 times a day (I average about nine) means that we have no "family, friends, or life."  

I'm sure you've drawn a false conclusion in my case, and in the case of many of the regulars here.  Having actually met some of these folks and found out what they're about, I find that many are naturally outgoing, friendly, and engaging people -- and the off topic chit chat that develops is a result of their gregariousness, not of their need.  

As far as family goes, I can't tell you the number of times I've walked away from interesting discussions because my wife has finished what she's doing and I'd rather spend the time with her.  

And as far as friends and life, go; well, you can't have too many friends -- but I'd hardly consider myself lacking and my life has been rich and full -- no complaints.  No, I'm here for recreation to share an interest with people of like mind -- there just aren't too many Pirate fans out here on the prairie.

I kind of feel sorry for those who see the interplay among the regulars here and get upset about it, like life is so rigid that if someone else is going off topic we have to rein them in?

Sometimes you go off topic because you just get tired of hearing the same seven or eight points repeated endlessly, often for days on end, like the two week discussion last winter about whether or not we should sign Adam Dunn.  

Oh, well.  It is what it is.

An All Star good morning to everyone.

sum1savus - a belated welcome aboard

Morning Gang! Whew ... a little late getting to the blog this morning. Slept in pretty hard, but dreamt us up two straight wins in the process ... I know, I know ... For sleeping in three more hours, looks like I could have reeled off quite the streak, but these things take time because we're a AAAA Club :-)

I am not saying don't play the young guys, but an entire team of young guys is not the appropriate way to develop talent.

I think JJ's D-Day analogy is illustrative of this. No disrespect intended, but you had a massive loss of life due to people not knowing where they were going, being dropped in the wrong places, and being unable to respond to well-prepared opponents.

I am not thinking this is what we want in a "big league" ballclub.

Jose

Marty,

I still have my pessimistic side, but i still think that the fact that we have developed a relationship with the player and family helps us alot. And when someone who covers international signings says we have a 90% chance at signing him, I feel more optomistic.

@ G-man: "you will know you only have to write 19 more times today to qualify as one of the 15 or so here who write to each other every day"

Didnt that poster also refer to us as middle age fans?  Well, as one MAF to another, I resemble that remark!

buc fan

Well I sure hope like heck we do sign him, but what scares me is the thought of someone throwing some astronomically large dollar figure in his face and him taking the money.

Bay - Two wins in a row?  whoa now.  Easy big fella.

Guess I will chime in here seeings as it was my post that got the topic started today. I apologize to pghboyinca, it was unintentional but it was after midnight and a long shift in the ER and i really thought it said pgboyinca so I typed pig it was unintentional. However my original statement being the insult at least in my opinion, that being on here for a few hours every day means we have no life.

To all my cyber-friends (sounds kinda kinky doesn't it), thanks for making my days enjoyable. to JHadar, use the time wisely with the missus. Mine works days and i work nights so we see each other on Saturday AM mostly,and again to pghboyinca, I humbly apologize for being so rude and demeaning

Marty,

You just stated the exact same fear i have. And seeing as that the O's are the other front runner, it scares me more. I believe they have taken those kind of risks on players and just thrown way too much money at them.

Marty, I'm kinda with you...in favor of the Sano signing but almost as worried if we do sign him rather than dont.  In addition to the risk of lotz of $ to a young kid, there's the risk that he's just not that good.  Baseball history is replete with cant miss 16 yr olds who miss.  Sometimes the best 16 yr olds just dont turn into solid 22 year olds.

I'm still for it, but one could make the argument that a limited resource club like PBC could make better use of $4MM than such a high risk proposition.

buc fan

Well hopefully we'll land him, IMO signing him would be arguably the biggest signing in team history.

"but an entire team of young guys is not the appropriate way to develop talent."

=====================================================

Please inform Tampa of this.  Apparently they didn't get the memo.

drew

If the price is right, I think Sano is deffinately a rsik worth taking. Yes there have been the can't miss 16 year olds that have bombed in the past, but if we sign him it will do wonders for our reputation in Latin America. Also I find it hard to believe that a kid they are saying is "Pujols in Hanley Ramirez's body", will be a bust.

why

""but an entire team of young guys is not the appropriate way to develop talent."

=====================================================

Please inform Tampa of this.  Apparently they didn't get the memo."

Great, great point.

Marty - If they sign him, i certainly hope you're right.  They said the same kinda thing about cant-miss Billy Beane...who missed.  I'm not arguing, just worrying a little.  Despite the worries, i hope they sign him too.

Ok guys time for me to go and have a life, but to be sure it will always include the Pirates and the blog somewhere in my mind, even if i never meet yinz.

Drew,

"I'm still for it, but one could make the argument that a limited resource club like PBC could make better use of $4MM than such a high risk proposition."

My counter to that would be that the Bucs' resources are precisely the reason to take a risk like this.  They need to go for potential high-impact players, since $4M spent at the major league level will obviously not net that kind of player.

Tampa was not working with a bunch of marginally talented players. They drfted well, brought them up through their system and played them when they were ready. They suuplemented  what they did not have with FA's.

marty & why didn't I: you are comparing apples to kiwi here.

Jose

Greetings inmates...

_____________________________

sum1savus

Welcome to the asylum......

_____________________________

I kind of thought that I was one of the regulars here, but I don't know if I'll be able to reach my quota of 20 posts today. Moreover, since I have been absent for about a week, am I required to make up the lost ground and submit an additional 120 posts too?

I see nothing wrong with what pghboyinca said…..it’s just his opinion…….my opinion is that he is wrong…….we have far more than 15 regulars here, and some of those guys that he said he finds insightful, often submit more than 20 posts in less than an hour, let alone in a day. Twenty+++ posts a day doesn’t necessarily imply that they do not have a life, it is more likely that they have an agenda….or a special calling. They want to bash a hated player, or defend their favorite player; they want to bash the FO, or defend them….etc…

Many of the regulars here have learned to use the PgDn key when certain tracks of discord become tiresome. If the debate is worthy of comment then join in the fun and feel free to submit 20++ posts if that’s what it takes…..otherwise….hit the PgDn key and hopefully you will find another line of discussion that isn’t so tiresome.

Well, that’s my first post of the day.....please don’t hold your breath waiting for an additional 19 posts, they are more likely to come when you least expect….or desire to read them.

Morning mates

Updates on Fantasy League, top 8 teams make the playoffs

Will do them one at a time, here goes

ASYLUM – MID SEASON

     Team                      W- L - T PCT GB

1  HammarHeads 95-56-18 .601 2.5

2  Hold Steady 92-58-18 .601 2.5

3  Duke 84                      88-68-12 .560 9.5

4 A Bug on a Rug 86-67-15 .557 10

5  barnstormers 84-67-17 .551 11

6 Iceman's Meds 76-73-19 .509 18

7 WietersforPresident 80-77-11 .509 18

8 Royal Blues 77-79-12 .494 20.5

9 Bonds the G.O.A.T. 74-82-12 .476 23.5

10 Shelby's Ford Cobras 71-81-16 .470 24.5

11 Rule 5 draftee 71-82-15 .467 25

12 '97 Freak Show 70-83-15 .461 26

13 Irate's Army 68-86-14 .446 28.5

14 Nose Bleed Heaven 67-86-15 .443 29

15 The Lurkers 67-91-10 .429 31.5

16 BOMBErs 62-92-14 .411 34.5

And to think all this talk and worry about rather we'll sign Sano and they player he'll be, and hes at least 5-6 years away from the majors! :) I guess that is why we truely are an asylum.

Baywatch -

>>a little late getting to the blog this morning. Slept in pretty hard, but dreamt us up two straight wins in the process ... I know, I know ... For sleeping in three more hours, looks like I could have reeled off quite the streak...<<

This got me thinking. If Rip Van Winkle nodded off right after that fateful night in October 1992, he might be waking up just about the time NH's efforts result in a competitive team.

Ouch!

DK's Asylum

Rank Team  W-L-T Pct GB

1.       The Highlanders 115-60-7 .651 -

2.       HammarHeads 110-56-16 .648 0.5

3.       Bizrow's Bombers 96-78-8 .549 18.5

4.       AirJordanSchafer 93-77-12 .544 19.5  

5.       MightyMcLouths 87-77-18 .527 22.5

6.       Al Oliver's Army 91-81-10 .527 22.5

7.       Deckers Creek Boys 91-82-9 .525 23

8.       Last Man Standing 89-83-10 .516 24.5

9.       Beach Bums 83-87-12 .489   29.5

10.     Yinzers 82-88-12 .484 30.5

11.      eers 78-90-14 .467 33.5

12.      Thundering Herd 80-95-7 .459 35

13.      Dirty Doug 70-95-17 .431 40

14.      DoumitsGirl 71-100-11 .420 42

15.      Here4Beer 65-107-10 .385 48.5

16.  Uncle Dirt Naps Crew62-107-13 .376 50

Again top 8 teams make the playoffs

As the only thing I'll say about this, I don't think we should be either insulting others on this blog, or responding to insults on this blog. If someone says this is the private playground for only 15 people, so what? The internet is full of people who spout off and then slink away. Let's just ignore those people.

If someone insults me on here, I can guarantee I will not respond. Hopefully the people who do appreciate my postings will continue to respond to what I have to say, and I will to them. As for the rest, I'm perfectly able to happy to scroll past.

This place should be a place where Pirate fans discuss the Pirates and baseball as it relates to the Pirates. Period.

FSF - I'm still hoping PBC signs him.  But remember, while $4MM on a major leaguer might not get that kind of talent, it might not on a 16 year old either if he turns out to be a bomb.  Keep in mind my perspective: While I'm pointing out the big risks with the signing, i'm not against it...in fact i'm for it.

Drew -

>>Didnt that poster also refer to us as middle age fans?  Well, as one MAF to another, I resemble that remark!<<

I kinda wish I could still call myself middle aged. :-(

@ JosePagan:

While I agree with you that it's nice to have veteran leadership on a club, you have to keep in mind that you can't always get what you want and you usually can't get it at the MLB level for what you'd like to pay for it.  Put it this way, while in the ideal world, I'd like to keep our veterans around, in the real world those veterans are overpaid considering what they bring to the table.  With the exception of Sanchez, Wilson gets paid a lot to play defense while swinging the bat pretty little, Adam LaRoche gets paid for a whole year while only producing for about half of it, and Doumit gets more paychecks while injured than while healthy.  This is a glib restatement of those players demerits, of course, but I think you get my point:  if you want veteran leadership with the current group of veterans, you're probably overpaying for it.

Every dollar the team overspends on something like that is a dollar they can't spend elsewhere.  It's a dollar that some will say can't be spent to draft and develop, can't be spent on international signings, can't be spent on scouring the earth for pitching, etc.  Others will say it's a dollar that Nutting would rather use to purchase another ivory backscratcher and a doomsday device so that he can finally become the Bond villian (complete with fuzzy cat on his lap) they know him to be.  Whatever the truth is (and I suspect that it's somewhere between those two extremes) it seems pretty clear that the FO does not want to overspend on the current veterans, despite the impact this might have on the young guys.  Notice I said might;  I don't know what's gonna happen and neither does anyone else

For what it's worth, I think one of the reasons that Russell and the rest of the coaching staff were hired is their ability to work with the young guys and develop them.  If that plan plays out (I know its a big if) then maybe when the time is right, the FO goes out and signs a free agent Craig Counsell-type (heck, Craig Counsell himself will probably still wanna play) for the veteran leadership if they think it's necessary.  It might not be the best course of action, but I think it's the most cost-effective one, and sometimes that ain't all bad.

Just my opinion.

Regarding membership in the asylum, if you look at the Fantasy Teams names, several names you don't see hereabouts anymore.

And regarding comments from other site, don't forget we have 40 states that either have visited and posted and 9 countries, thats not too shabby, for Bucco Nation and this blog, IMO of course

@Marty: "And to think all this talk and worry about rather we'll sign Sano and they player he'll be, and hes at least 5-6 years away from the majors! :) I guess that is why we truely are an asylum."

Best point made on Sano today!

I hear you, Drew.  It's a high risk/high reward kind of signing, if it happens.  The Bucs are lacking in talent throughout the organization, so they need to take those kind of risks.

G-Man - you still breathing?  If so, that qualifies for middle age.

- MAF in Florida

Marty

"And to think all this talk and worry about rather we'll sign Sano and they player he'll be, and hes at least 5-6 years away from the majors!"

Good point.  I think for Bucs fans, it's not just Sano's potential to be a quality player, but it's also what the signing would represent: forward thinking management looking beyond the present, rather than plugging holes in the lineup in order to shoot for a .500 record.

uglyken -

If you are already 120 posts behind, I think you should be fined or at least sent down to the blog minors for a conditioning stint.

On the subject of some people here not having a life, I might add the notion that many here seem to have jobs that allow a lot of free time from actual work in that a lot of folks post only during the daytime hours. Not a criticism, just an observation.

@ Drew71

I agree that the PBC is a limited resource club, but to an extent.  I believe they are a limited resource club when it comes to the Major League Roster (I guess go with 25 or 40...doesn't really make a difference).  I think they look carefully at who they have and what they are going to pay.  As Nutting has said, he'll spend when there's things worth spending on.

I think he has shown that with the draft last season, int'l signings, and the new academy in the DR.  The PBC is getting younger, newer, sleeker.  I can't wait till we get to see some of these guys play.  

Sano is exactly the risk that the PBC needs to take.  It would show the fans that there IS really a commitment to getting better, and they are willing to go out and take a BIG risk on a 16 year old.  The worst thing now would be to undo what was done with last season's draft, int'l FAs by passing up a golden opportunity.

Now, if they go hard at him throw a big dollar figure, but still get outbid, then I can't fault them, but if they shy away from making a serious play b/c of the $$$$$$$, then my confidence will be sorely shaken in this FO.

Yesterday I couldnt get the Sister Christian tune out of my head all day.

What's rattling around in the empty space between my ears today?  SanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSanoSano

Somebody shoot me please.

On that in-Sano-ty moment, I'm off for awhile.  I think i still owe about 4 or 5 posts to hit my daily 20 so will be back later to talk to the same 15 or so MAFs.

MarkInDallas -

>>Hopefully the people who do appreciate my postings will continue to respond to what I have to say, and I will to them.<<

One of the nice things about this blog is there is someone out there who appreciates every poster - well, maybe not PAMT. ;-)  Proof is that JAL developed a fan set of imitators last week.

OK after this 14 more posts left for today.Gotta make that quota.Of course I don't have a "super" life like some.  ;-) Now how can I emulate the guys that are so fullfilled?At least I got the "highlight of my day".(got that avatar changed)

G-Man

I can only hope FC and NH are trying to do the right thing. But I wish they would keep their mouths shut a lot more often and not say things that make them look disingenuous.

_________________________________

I agree with you, but for a different reason.

I believe anything they say is going to be construed to mean something that they did not mean.

People have a way of "reading in between the lines" far to often when it comes to Pirates management.

I know they try to explain why they do something, but it never comes off as something most fans can understand.

So I subscribe to the just shut up theory.

G-Man  << If you are already 120 posts behind, I think you should be fined or at least sent down to the blog minors for a conditioning stint.>>

But there arn't many vetrans playing in the "Minor League" Report blog.....how will I learn if there arn't any vetrans to act as mentors?

I agree with Jose that a team shouldn't be young for the sake of being young.

I know Tampa did it, and it worked for them. It could work for the Pirates.

What I don't get is having to discard players that are productive due to age. Money, unfortunately, performance, please do, but don't ditch Freddy for his age. Many successful teams have long term guys who are up there and are a great asset when balanced with young talent. I agree with Jose that a one year rent-a-guy like Hinske doesn't necessarily make a veteran presence. Dougie did, but he's one of a kind - the Good Lord broke the mold after making Doug Mientkeiwicz, I believe.

If teams ditched guys that were old, what, the BoSox get rid of Tek? Srsly?

There's room for Andrew McCutcheon and someone over 30 on a winning team - we just have to get the right mix of talent and be prepared to pay to keep the right talent. That's winning my friends: talent, maintained.

You guys are really swell. You complain about people and what they post and how wrong it is of them to say certain things, with this incredible naive tone as if you can't imagine how anyone could think anyone here is judgemntal or clannish and then you are all in line to take a swing at the individual.

@ UK: Nice touch. Of course, depending on who the veteran is, maybe we are better off with few of them in the minor league thread.

You all can go on ahead and read between the lines on that one, but again I am sure this would be explained away that we are all just one big happy asylum where everyone is welcome - except those who are not in the "in crowd."

Jose

From sum1savus:

"Regarding tony sanchez, he is the real deal. he's not going to hit for power like doumit. but he's going to hit for average and he is gonna be an above average defender."

The former player who best fits this description is Paul Lo Duca (if this comparison was already made by someone else I apologize). If the PBC can get those results (albeit w/o the steroids) I think they would be happy as long as power is coming from other positions. Would the asylum be happy?

Sorry for the wikipedia link instead of a better one - most sports links are blocked in my office.

en.wikipedia.org/.../Paul_Lo_Duca

Why Didn't I and Marty,

"Please inform Tampa of this.  Apparently they didn't get the memo."

Allow me to send you a memo. Factually speaking, Tampa most certainly did not field an entire team of youngsters on their way to the 2008 World Series.

While some young players such as Longoria and Upton played key roles, so did several veterans.....

Starting 1B - Carlos Pena - was 30 in 2008.

Starting 2B - Akinora Iwamura was 29 in 2008.

Starting SS - Jason Bartlett was 28 in 2008.

Gabe Gross started more games in RF than anyone else for the Rays and he was 28 in 2008.

35 year old Cliff Floyd was the Rays primary DH for much of the 08 season.

30 year old Eric Hinske played a very key role for the Rays off the bench.

And almost the entire Rays bullpen was comprised of vets in 2008.....

Percival was 38

Wheeler was 30

Balfour was 30

Miller was 35

Reyes was 37.....

This stuff that Tampa won with a "young" team of talented youngsters sounds a great story ......it just isn't very accurate or true.

Plenty,

I wouldn't think they're looking to trade Freddy (or Jack) because of age.  I would think that management thinks that their trade value is at the highest it will ever be.

Biz -- I think the standings would be more interesting if you would put the players blog names in with their team names.  

On veteran leadership >> I think it's been discussed before, that there are many styles of leadership:  personality, example, rah-rah, natural ability, best friend, drill sergeant, you name it.  There are appointed leaders like the manager, coaches, and assistants -- and there are leaders who come to the fore.  

Right now on this club we have only a few veterans -- Sanchez, Adam LaRoche, Jack Wilson, Ramon Vasquez (but not with us) , Capps, Duke, Maholm, and Grabow.  Doumit is in his second full season, and pretty much everybody else is going around for the first time.  I'm not sure that anybody in our group of veterans stands out as such a good leader that it would be a factor in whether to trade him or not.  (A case perhaps, where reality doesn't fit theory -- or not being privy to what goes on in the clubhouse, of pure speculation).  

Jack Wilson, who should be our leader has been openly critical of management, and the GM has several times had to make statements to the effect that moves he's made are not popular because players are losing their friends.  Please don't take that as critical of Jack, but as an observation that he may not be winning a lot of points in the FO.  

Pardon me for rambling, but where I want to get to is that among the players, leadership is something that happens, not something that can be imposed on them.  I've probably got Billy Wagner and Lastings Milledge in the back of my mind.  

As for "bring the young guys in and let them play" -- I think you'll find that that works better for position players than for pitchers.  It worked with Andy LaRoche and it's starting to work with Moss and Young.  McCutcheon was ready, and Jones is playing like he's been waiting all his life for this opportunity (he has, hasn't he).  

With pitchers, the spotlight is so much brighter, and the consequences of mistakes are so much greater that bringing them up before they're ready can be totally devastating.  I think of Ryan Vogelsong (we gave up Jason Schmidt to get him and an outfielder who had the wrong color shoes -- but that's a different story with an unhappy ending) and wonder if he was ever really ready.  He'd come up, get shelled, get sent back down, be almost ready and we'd need a pitcher and he'd get shelled again.  Even now we have two major league talents in Indianapolis who forgot how to pitch after having success with the big club.

Poh

is age. Many successful teams have long term guys who are up there and are a great asset when balanced with young talent.

_______________________________

Mixing quality veterans with a young player here or there is one formula that can lead to success.

Baseball economics makes it very difficult for a small market team to pull that formula off.

Older guys that are above average want above what they are worth, because they want their talent, their service time and their past stats to count in what you pay them.

Freddie Sanchez is a classic example, he gets and wants more than he is worth, the Pirates place a value on each player, they won't pay more than they are worth. The Yankees and Red Sox will pay more than a player is worth.

In conclusion, the Pirates will be forever young as long as the present management is in place.

I stand corrected by NuttingHostage - Tampa didn't do it. But they do, unbeknownst to me before now, make my point: talent, some old, some young, but talent.

talent talent talent.

Let's get it, keep it, pay it.

I may make me a shirt about that.

@ POH: Thank you for expressing my point better than I did.

@ Hostage: Thank you for providing the actual facts to back up my point.

Jose

Jose-Just like in football the person that retaliates is punished!Look at the top of the page and see what (and who)brought this all about.And yet you have said nothing to the person whose post started this whole thing.I thought you could see there are 2 sides and you have chastised only one side.It seems the term clannish is a double sided sword.Maybe you should address the poster who took the cheap shot instead of going after the "regulars".

All,

So what does the asylum think of the rumor that published in several newspapers this weekend that indicated the Bucs were in discussions regarding a potential trade that included both Freddy Sanchez and Zach Duke?

21

I wouldn't think they're looking to trade Freddy (or Jack) because of age.  I would think that management thinks that their trade value is at the highest it will ever be.

__________________________________

Neal said on his radio show, the question is do you think that the middle of the infield is worth 16mil.

Sounds to me like it is about the money.

@ JHadar: No offense, but how do you know who is and who is not providing veteran leadership? That is a factor that would nearly impossible for us to see from our vantage point as so much of what happens in that regard happens during a practice or in the clubhouse.

Jose

Re: youth movement……

I’m not sure who I’m agreeing with and who I’m disagreeing with……Maybe I straddle the fence here, but I advocate playing our younger players so that they can gain experience and demonstrate that they have a future in MLB baseball. However, I strongly advocate finding a way to maintain our current middle infielders. Freddy is a very solid player. His offence and defense justifies his salary (even for the PBC). Jack is going to earn too much next year if he stays; however, if he is willing to rework his contract, then serious negotiations to that end should be in the plans of the PBC. Jack’s defense can’t be replaced internally, and nobody wants to trade us a quality SS to take his place. I don’t advocate keeping Jack & Freddy to mentor anybody, to set an example, or to be spokespersons for the rest of the team. I want them to stay because there are no internal replacements and our current pitch-to-contact starting rotation needs a strong infield. They're vets, but they're not old.

Jose,

No problem buddy. - That stuff that Tampa won with all youth is fantasy land nonsense. They had a mix of youth and vets just like you are recommending.

IMO you are 100% correct. - It obviously takes talent to win, as you and POH commented, but I also think it requires a blend of youth and experience. - At least that would be my preference in fielding a competitive club.

That said, I don't see this club being competitive for several years given the recent actions of the front office so I don't know how useful veterans would be in 2010 or 2011.

I could potentially see this club being competitive in 2012 or 2013 if Nutting were willing to fill the gaps with legitimate veteran talent, but I don't see that ever happening.

He keeps ordering his front office to blow up one "core" after another to avoid increasing payroll.

@Biz - thanks for the fantasy league updates.  I, the Hammarheads, am still a committed (bad pun, sorry) resident of the Asylum.  However, due to the heavy sedation I am being kept under by Nurse Ratched (allegedly the same dosage being administered to JR), my participation has been as a several times daily observer.

I hid the meds under my tongue this morning, then spit them out in the Littlefield wing, so I am as coherent as I have been in some time.  Next person to get a piece of my mind?  Bob Nutti....ARRRGHHH...I thought tasers were illegal in asylums!!

Trades

I would trade anyone on the team if I thought it was a good deal and would help the organization.

Don't really care what the fans think, they don't show up anyway.

There is no franchise player on this team right now, that is the only type of player I would consider keeping.

Leadoff,

We agree for a change.   ;-)

I think the front offices' motivation in seeking deals for Sanchez, Wilson, LaRoche, and Duke is financially motivated as well.

I think DK made a brief mention yesterday on the morning links that he too views any trade of Sanchez as all about the money.

Now, even though I think they are 100% financially motivated, at this point, given how they have gutted this team and killed any chance it had to compete this year or next, they may as well trade those guys for prospects and see if they can make a run in 2012 or 2013.

We deserved better but at this point it is what it is....so we may as well make the best of it, regardless of whatever Nutting's motivation is or is not.

NuHo,

My vote would be do it at the right price. The right price for both Duke and Sanchez would have to be 1 stud prospect (think Matt Wieters this year, or David Price), 2 Lastings Milledge or Jose Tabata type of high ceiling-but-buy-low guys that are close to MLB ready, and an A-baller with a high ceiling. Ideally, it would be 2 pitchers and 2 hitters, but at least 1 of each. Think about the Nady/Marte trade last year and sub David Price for Jeff Karstens.

Jose -- I had a disclaimer in there.  I believe I said and I quote << A case perhaps, where reality doesn't fit theory -- or not being privy to what goes on in the clubhouse, of pure speculation. >>

No offense taken, but, please,  I do try to mention it when I'm speculating.

@ maz: I handled the original post in a different manner. Further, I thought there was a good bit of validity to what the poster said and I don't recall it being pointed at one particular individual.

Since that time, no small few of the folks here have missed an opportunity to gang-tackle the poster. Not exactly what I would call inclusive, welcoming or playing by the FAQ's.

Or maybe I grow weary of people telling me what I should be doing.

Jose

@ Hostage: I posted last week that with NH changing the dynamic of the club fielding-wise (should he be successful in trading Freddie/Jack) from a solid infield to a so-so infield with a fast outfield, the pitch-to-contact guys are never going to have a higher upside than they do now.

Take out Freddie and Jack and guys like Duke will suffer. Packaging him with Sanchez will make room for a power arm and make a Sanchez trade more palatable to the new team: the Glove will follow the pitcher, so to speak.

Jose

Gregenstein,

I suppose I agree.

I hate looking at the next two seasons knowing the club will have no chance at competing, but that's where we are at right now anyway....even with Sanchez and Duke.

So provided we get good talent in return, and including Duke would seem to ensure that, then why not.

I just hope it doesn't turn out to be a return like we got in the Bay trade. - That was just god awful.

IMO the return would need to be two, as close as you can get to "can't miss" prospects, as possible, and maybe an A-ball prospect too.

"That's winning my friends: talent, maintained."

PoH,

This is the same "talent" that went 67-95 last season (and they were 40-48 at the break w/ Bay, Nady, & McLouth so that doesn't even project to post season, let alone .500).  

You gotta come back to reality, and that reality is that our major leaguers aren't good enough.  We need better players and the only way the PBC will get them is to draft, sign internationally, and through trades (b/c I hate to tell ya, even if Bob Nutting threw $200 mil at C.C., he wasn't coming to the PBC).  The only value our veterans have right now is to bring in young, possibly good players b/c they will never be better than a 70 win club.

As far as age goes, (I'll use Freddy as an example) 31 has peaked in terms of development.  Freddy will not get better.  He may stay at his current level of production for a few more years (maybe, barring more injury problems), but I'd rather watch players who's possible upside is greater than my veteran's ceiling.  We know they all aren't going to pan out, but if you throw enough stuff against a wall, eventually some of it will stick.

There is no franchise player on this team right now, that is the only type of player I would consider keeping.

===================================================

@ Leadoff,

Andrew McCutchen?

On Sano-

Can someone tell me why, if this kid is so special, the Pirates are one of the high bidders for him?  Didn't Boston pay like $60 just to get the RIGHTS to Daisuke?  Maybe there's just a signing limit on international players or something but I find it hard to believe all the big market teams wouldn't make room in their books and on their farm clubs for a kid we've been drooling over for weeks now.

Sorry if this has been addressed in the past, but I haven't seen it.

Why didn't I,

"This is the same "talent" that went 67-95 last season (and they were 40-48 at the break w/ Bay, Nady, & McLouth so that doesn't even project to post season, let alone .500). "

With all due respect, that viewpoint is pure, unadulterated hogwash.

That core did not win because it was not responsibly supported financially and from a talent perspective, by the owner and front office.

I was indeed as promising a core as any, but what can anyone expect from a club with the 3rd lowest payroll in the sport and one that the GM did little to attempt to improve during his two offseasons?

I see that comment all the time and it is wholly inaccurate and disingenuous.

What would any sane, knowledegeable fan expect from a small but talented core that did not have a responsible level of supporting talent around it as do 80% of the other major league clubs?

That's just garbage buddy.

It really is.

Jose,

I think the idea of trading Duke right now may not be a bad idea because IMO it would be a case of selling high.

I don't know if his value will ever be higher.....

If you are SF and contending for the wild card, adding Duke to the mix of Lincecum, Cain sure looks good on paper.

Although I think stuff wise, Duke and Zito are an awful lot alike.

Leadoff and NH -

I think in this case, trading Freddy and/or Jack and/or AdLa and/or Capps and/or Doumit (I think more likely in the offseason), is both about saving ski lift money AND acquiring talent.  

As weary as I am of the obviously shallow pockets of Mr. Seven Springs, at this point NH has a good grasp on the financial parameters for the rest of this year, 2010, and possibly projecting into 2011.  

NH seems to have decided that there were not enough assets to both pay Bay, Nady, Marte, McLouth, etc. and bring in enough veteran talent to win now.  Quite simply, the Nutting pie was not big enough to feed the table, no matter how it was sliced.

So, NH started blowing it up, hoping that somehow, he could get enough ingredients to create a winning pie ready to serve by 2011-2012.  

IMHO, three questions remain:

1)  Does the PBC have talent evaluators qualified enough to recognize what current ingredients should be held on to (IMO, any and all young pitching) and which should be targeted for acquisition?

2) Do NH and FC have the stomach to continue selling off the rest of the pie (Freddy, Jack, etc.) and properly sell the benefits of that necessary approach to an increasingly disillusioned (and occasionally angry) fanbase?

3) Will Bob Nutting truly be willing to cash the check his mouth has already written in order to buy some real whipped cream and ice cream (complementary, TALENTED veteran players) when the Pirates Pie is ready for consumption after 2011?

@ JHadar: Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!

Ok.  NutHos, If they trade Sanchez and Duke, I'm going to stop watching Extra Innings and follow the Giants.  There is alot to like on that team.  Plus Freddie will be playing 2nd base for them, so its like watching your brother.  

Now, for the All-star game, if I see Trevor Hoffman after the 8th inning, I will be ill.  He and Billy Wagner maybe the worst All-star performers of all-time (with multiple appearances).  I'm sure there are a few that have been shelled and had multiple appearances, but recent memory Hoffman and Wagner get routinely shelled.  

Obviously, Chan Ho Park and Atlee Hammaker do not count, I beilieve each only made one appearance.  

If I'm Charlie Manuel, I line up the pitchers like this..

1,2 Lincecum

3,4 Haren

5 Billingsley

6 Santana

7 mutiple pitchers (Duke should be included)

8. Heath "Taco" Bell

9 Krod..

Sadly for Rockie and Cub fans, you shouldn't see Lilly or Marquis, too many pitchers.

Selig made a great point about burning thru your staff and where it originated.  In 1993, Mike Mussina warmed up in Camden Yards (on his own) and Cito Gaston didnt' put him in.  Since then, it has become the norm to burn through pitchers.  

No reliever should be used for 3 innings like Sherril was last year.  

"This is the same "talent" that went 67-95 last season (and they were 40-48 at the break w/ Bay, Nady, & McLouth so that doesn't even project to post season, let alone .500). "

Boy that comment really chaps my behind.

That is a myth Bob Nutting wishes Pirate fans would believe.......but again look at the facts....

Following two last place finishes, the Front Office did nothing to help improve the club during either off season and with the 3rd lowest payroll in the sport, it clearly lacked the depth of talent needed to be competitive.

The core, if responsibly supported financially and talent-wise, could have been competitive.

But again, that would require a payroll higher than $50M and with Bob Nutting calling the shots and benefitting from the profits.....that just isn't going to happen.

These regime can acquire all the promising minor leaguers it wants, but without financial support to fill the gaps in the lineup or rotation with a key veteran here or there, like the Rays did in 2008, the liklihood for success is going to be very, very narrow.

Tampa was not working with a bunch of marginally talented players. They drfted well, brought them up through their system and played them when they were ready. They suuplemented  what they did not have with FA's.

========================================================

@ Jose,

What have Neal and Frank's actions shown since they took over?  New academy in the DR and the fist LA signings in like 8-10 years.  Spent over-slot on HSers who were bound for college, but we got them in when they're 18, not 22.  I'd say that goes with the int'l signings and good drafting strategies.

I noticed you didn't say trades in there.  Scott Kazmir, Matt Garza, Carlos Pena (I'm not sure who others are, but those are the ones off the top of my head) were acquired through trade.  Kazmir came over from the Mets for Victor Zambrano!  Now the Lastings Milledge for NyjMo deal could end up being like this, or Lastings could bust (just like Kazmir could've been a bust).

I may take a few more years, but Neal & Frank seem to have a plan that is consistent with how you build a small-market winner.  It may take 5-10 more years, but, remember, they only started last season.

Since Neal & Frank took over, seems like Apples to Apples to me (get that hairy Kiwi outta here!!!)

@JHadar - re - names of folks in fantasy

I'll try to figure that out next time.  As you can see, some chose blog names, some did not, will try to figure things out

Decker Creek Boys is JAL, am pretty sure

@Hammar - you are having a tremendous season, keep it going, wire to wire, I am sure there are many that lurk and do not post, sometimes in here the cross fire gets dangerous, sometimes I take the wireless and peek while hiding under the bed... ; }

Also, if you remember how baseball normally names soon to be retired veterans to the All-star rosters, they should have placed Johnson and Griffey on the team for one last glance like they did in 2003 with Gwynn.

NuHo -

You make a good point about some key veterans on the Rays

However, most of those guys, i.e. Floyd & Percival, the pulled off the scrap heap I believe.

Pena they got dirt cheap and he broke out and THEN they paid him.

They got lucky on alot of those guys being productive...

Imagine if the PIrates had paid the exhorbitant amounts to Jeromy Burnitz, Joe Randa, Matt Morris, Derek Bell, Pat Meares, Reggie Sanders...

...oh wait they did....

...and they all had career years? They Rays pulled guys off of the scrap heap and got alot out of them for little.

NuHo,

The 2008 Rays had a grand total of 1 everyday player in his 30s, and that's Carlos Pena, who was a castoff from other orgs, and was exactly 30.  Their oldest starting pitcher was 26 (Shields). Hinske (30), Floyd (35), and Balfour (30) were the only other contributors above 28.  Their WS rotation had an average age of 24.8.  This was a young, young team that won the pennant because they were talented.

Hammer,

Excellent points.

My answers to your questions are as follows:

1)  Does the PBC have talent evaluators qualified enough to recognize what current ingredients should be held on to (IMO, any and all young pitching) and which should be targeted for acquisition?

- Only time will tell, and I think it is questionable. The return for Jason Bay was god awful. Maybe by selling off all the vets, they will acquire so many prospects all at once to cover for whatever mis-evaluations they make in the process?

2) Do NH and FC have the stomach to continue selling off the rest of the pie (Freddy, Jack, etc.) and properly sell the benefits of that necessary approach to an increasingly disillusioned (and occasionally angry) fanbase?

- I think they do because they believe in themselves and their plan. But, I think if things get really nasty around here next year and the following if the club remains a 100 loss club, Nutting will not have the stomach and he will cut these guys off at their knees as a sacrifice to the public.

3) Will Bob Nutting truly be willing to cash the check his mouth has already written in order to buy some real whipped cream and ice cream (complementary, TALENTED veteran players) when the Pirates Pie is ready for consumption after 2011?

- Never happen. He has no intentions whatsoever and never has.

WhyStan,

I thought back in spring training that the Giants could be sleepers in the NL, primarily because of their rotation.

If they acquire Freddy and Duke, they could be very interesting to watch down the stretch and in October.

Nothing wrong with enjoying watching a good baseball team.

The one thing that changed in Philadelphia, could change the though process in Pittsburgh:  Season ticket renewals.  Yes, the economy has been awful (but showing signs of recovery), but if their is a 5%-10% decrease in renewals, that can change the thought process.    

I understand rebuilding the franchise, but I agree with most on the blog, you do not place 8 McClutchens lever of experience against the Cardinals and Brewers.  

"Neal said on his radio show, the question is do you think that the middle of the infield is worth 16mil."

Leadoff, I think we could compete for a playoff spot  next year if we keep Freddy and Jack so I think they're worth it.  My preference would be to extend both of them but I feel fairly certain that Freddy will unfortunately be traded.

The Rays acquired guys like Percival, Floyd, etc. to supplement their young talent because they had the talented core in place to make a run.  The Pirates of the last couple of years had nothing remotely approaching that level of talent.  Hopefully in a couple of years they will have the luxury of making similar moves.

They had the worst pitching staff in baseball last year.  Dead last.  The talent simply was not there.

Comet,

I don't care how the Rays acquired the Vets that were included on their 2008 WS club, the fact is they had them.

Now to your point, clearly Tampa talent evaluators have done a much better job than Pittsburgh talent evaluators.

Although according to sum that is going to miraculously turn around 180 degrees now that FC and NH are running the show. - Not sure how......

"3) Will Bob Nutting truly be willing to cash the check his mouth has already written in order to buy some real whipped cream and ice cream (complementary, TALENTED veteran players) when the Pirates Pie is ready for consumption after 2011?

- Never happen. He has no intentions whatsoever and never has."

And how do you know this to be the case until the pie is ready?

FormerSoxfan,

No, the Rays were an effective blend of youth and experience.

This "entirely young" crap is fantasy make believe.

28 year olds who have been in the league for 4 or 5 years are veterans too by the way.

@ Biz - Oh yes, I can't tell you how many times I've been reading the PBC Blog on my Blackberry in a dull meeting, and snickered out loud (in a good way).  

This is a community like none I've seen, and is the first that I've cared to be a part of...all because of our inexplicable dedication to a franchise that we all wish demonstrated the same commitment to winning.

From the Twitter feed of Jorge Arangure, who has been all over the Sano story:

'Don't believe MLB has anything of substance against Sano in investigation.Would be surprised if suspended.MLB has concerns but no proof"

FormerSoxfan,

"And how do you know this to be the case until the pie is ready?"

Where were you in 2007 and 2008?

We have already seen that Bob Nutting has no intentions of spending more when a core is in place because he already proved it.

Ad. LaRoche, Sanchez, Wilson, Bay, Nady, McLouth, Doumit, Maholm, Capps.....was a core that he refused to support responsibly. He surrounded them with the third lowest payroll in the sport and very little talent around them. And when they hit the $50M payroll mark, the blew them up.

The history, proof, and evidence is there for anyone to see.......unless they want to keep blinders on.

All,

Later.....good stuff worth debating today.....

Got to get some work done.

Why Didn't I

Andrew McCutchen

_________________________

He is not a franchise player IMO, he is a going to be a very good player, but franchise players to me are of the Pujols mold/

I am not sure if this has come up, but has it been discussed putting some of these prospects under contract for 10, 15, or 20 years?

I am not sure if there is anything in the CBA that would prevent Sano from signing a 20 mil 20 year contract.

This is starting to be done in the NHL to help with cap and whatnot, but the same could be applied to the draft and international signings?

I understand it is a bit risky, but when there is a talent that Sano is supposed to be, 1 mil a year in 2025 will be most likely less than the veteran minimum.

Just a thought

"Following two last place finishes, the Front Office did nothing to help improve the club during either off season and with the 3rd lowest payroll in the sport, it clearly lacked the depth of talent needed to be competitive."

&

"But again, that would require a payroll higher than $50M and with Bob Nutting calling the shots and benefitting from the profits.....that just isn't going to happen."

=====================================================

NuHo,

You're putting talent and $ value in the same category.  Why?  We could pay Jack $10 mil/season, and Florida could pay Hanley $3 mil/season (just using as an example...not sure of actual dollar amount, hence why I wrote could).  Does this mean that Jack is a better player than Hanley?  No.  Obviously there are many factors that go into determining a player's worth, and talent should be the major one.  Seattle had over $100 million dollar payroll last season and finished worse than the Bucs.  Tampa had the lowest and went to the WS (and is still competing this season IN THE TOUGHEST DIVISION IN BASEBALL HANDS DOWN).  Talent wins ball games, not $$$$.  You've seen yourself when guys like Matt Morris (boy he had a nice $9 mil salary didn't he?) or Jeremy Burnitz get signed.  They're no good.

Also, please offer some suggestions as to who the FO could've brought in to better support our "core" with talent?  C.C.? Burnett? Texeira? Burrell? Ibanez? Pedro Martinez? Barry Bonds? (only ones I could come up with off the top)  Please, I beg you.

Kazmir was in his 4th season as a regular starter.  He was the most experienced pitcher in the Rays' rotation.

They were the 2nd youngest team in baseball.  That's pretty young, although I suppose there were just 28 teams that were older.

@Hammar - re this blog

Yup, I now consider it my second home, people get angry at others sometime, but the passion is most definitely there.

I sit in my office sometimes, and laugh out loud at some of the comments, usually, most usually in a good way, people are walking by and stick their heads in, what are you laughing about there is no one in there with you?  I just say, oh its something I just read....

You just absolutely cannot compare the Pirates to the Rays.  The Rays' young players were very talented.  Brandon Moss and Andy LaRoche are NOT B.J. Upton and Evan Longoria.

By the way, I have the worst feeling about Moss.  I know some of you want to play him every day the rest of the year to see what he's got, but I feel like I've already seen it and it would be a waste of time.  Of course I could be wrong, so I won't complain if that's what happens, but I see nothing promising that the guy can be anything better than an average offensive player with poor-below average power.

You just absolutely cannot compare the Pirates to the Rays.  The Rays' young players were very talented.  Brandon Moss and Andy LaRoche are NOT B.J. Upton and Evan Longoria.

By the way, I have the worst feeling about Moss.  I know some of you want to play him every day the rest of the year to see what he's got, but I feel like I've already seen it and it would be a waste of time.  Of course I could be wrong, so I won't complain if that's what happens, but I see nothing promising that the guy can be anything better than an average offensive player with poor-below average power.

Thanks Hostage, have a great day at work.  It's nice to know that we're all full of garbage, full of crap and are disingenuous.

See ya Buddy!

Hammer

"3) Will Bob Nutting truly be willing to cash the check his mouth has already written in order to buy some real whipped cream and ice cream (complementary, TALENTED veteran players) when the Pirates Pie is ready for consumption after 2011?

__________________________________

No way are going to keep talented veterans, that is not the plan, the FO has said this so many times.

The plan is to stock the system with enough talent that when a veteran is let go, the can simply reload. Much like the Twins.

The might have a difficult decision some day if they have a franchise player that is too important to the club to let go.

There are not a lot of franchise players though out baseball however.

A perfect example of this is when they traded McClouth, in the eyes of the front office they could let a center fielder go of McClouth's quality because they had someone to replace him and they got stronger in the system for that trade.

This is what you are going to see in the future, like it or not.

Well, if you're going to find a core of Ad. LaRoche, Sanchez, Wilson, Bay, Nady, McLouth, Doumit, Maholm, and Capps comparable to a core of Longoria, Pena, Upton, Crawford, Navarro, Kazmir, Shields, and Garza . . . well, I guess I'm glad you're not running the team.

Heck, Maholm and Capps were the only pitchers from the 2008 Pirates that would've had a chance of cracking the 2008 Rays roster, and that would be with Maholm as a possible #5 and Capps as a 6th or 7th inning guy.

@ NutHo

One thing about the Rays is they did win with a payroll of $43.7M last year. In fact the Rays payroll the year before was only $24M, when they were in last place as the Pirates are.

According to your standards, I guess it was obvious that the Rays' FO didn't have a financial commitment to the team in 2007, right? They didn't want to win then apparently.

The main thing here to look at is when the Rays felt they had a real core in place that they could keep and it was going to make a difference in the record to raise payroll, they did it and it worked out for them. However, even if it hadn't worked out as they would have hoped (and certainly they didn't expect to have the greatest turn around in history), they still would have had a payroll that was manageable with the very limited attendance revenues they have to deal with.

The Pirates' situation last year was completely different. They had a burgeoning superstar in Bay that was going to demand a third to half their payroll if he would even accept it. On a baseball team, unless you have a payroll in the range of $65M at least, you can't have one player making $18M.

Plus, Bay's contribution to last year's run totals were phenomenal, and were unlikely to be sustainable even by him. I ran the numbers for last year using the linear weights formula, and Bay had an output - both before and after the trade - of generating 1 run for every 3.66 plate appearances.

Considering that Manny Ramirez and Albert Pujols generate 1 run for every 3.55 PA's, Bays output was pretty darn good. As a comparison, Ryan Howard generates 1 run for every 4.66 PA's - not even close to Bay's output last year.

Jason Bays' output this year has dropped a bit back to Ryan Howard levels - 4.46 - still better than Howard but not close to Albert and Manny.

So, the question is - If the Pirates could not outscore opponents in a year when they essentially had a Manny Ramirez on the roster, and they were going to LOSE him, what do you think should have been done?

"The plan is to stock the system with enough talent that when a veteran is let go, the can simply reload. Much like the Twins.

This is what you are going to see in the future, like it or not."

That's a bingo Leadoff.  They traded Luis Castillo, Santana, and lost Torii Hunter to free agency and missed the playoffs on the last day of the season.  That's not a terrible result.

Why Didn't I...

Back that truck up, my friend. I think the recipe for winning is maintaining talent.

I did NOT say that we have enough talent on the Pirates roster right now. Or that if we don't make any more trades we can win.

I said you can win if continue to get talent and you KEEP talent. Not flip it away because it's expensive.

Don't use my moniker of having hope in this blog as an excuse to misread me.

Leadoff -

What's not to like about everything you wrote? It's really the only option and if that is happening it most likely means we are winning.