Pirates sign six Latin players

Notice no Sano yet...curses, foiled again!

Grrrrrrrrrr..... SANO!

But it is satrt.

dreadful typing on me--it is a start--much better

Good to hear.I wonder who will be the 1st to throw cold water on this good news(to minimize it).

Jose-I realize a deal can happen at any time.It's just the hysteria(overblown term)that some use to magnify a trade.Some people grabbed for the life jackets before the boat even sprung a leak.  ;-)

re: Hanrahan

Hanrahan could have pitched for the Pirates yesterday.  Had he been traded to the Astros he could not have re-entered the same game.  Therefore he could not pick up the win and the loss in the same game.

I believe we have to (or are going to) wait until MLB finishes its investigation into Sano's age before any deal is done (same with other MLB teams....otherwise Balt. prolly woulda inked him already ;) )

@ JAL re: Slotting

That's what I thought, so then how is the commish's office blocking this (by not signing off)?  If the player wants to sign and we want to pay, can't he put his hame on the dotted line and get in the system?  Who cares if Frank & Neal get an angry email from Bud?

Maz, sorry for the delay,  here is one version of the pronouncement conversation going on, some from here are the back up songers.

www.youtube.com/watch

Thanks, JAL

Wagnalls

Right--good catch obn what i missed--he could pitch for a different team but not reenter a game he been removed from.

Morning Links available here

community.post-gazette.com/.../morning-links-they-are-the-world.aspx

JJ-That song reminds me of Beetle Juice.Since we don't have the OS thread anymore I will be using whichever thread is available to link to Youtube from time to time.

They like long walks on the beach, dining out, and must love pets.

Sano definitely won't get signed by any team until the MLB investigation is completed.  

Everytime I read anything about Joe Mauer I wonder why they don't just give him the MVP right now.He missed a month,but this guy is so far ahead of everyone else.He is #1 in BA,Slg pct,OBP, and OPS.He's also a gold glover and has 31 Ks.He could be the best player on the planet.Oh yeah he's all of 26.

Gotta love the notion that we can use the commissioner's office as an excuse for our draft strategy not panning out. Only problem is, there is no strict slotting system. Why, then, are any of us accepting this excuse?

@ mazfromiowa

Do you know how many years Joe Mauer has left on his contract?  I wanna speculate on what NY or Boston is going to pay b/c the Twins certainly won't be in on it.

"Why, then, are any of us accepting this excuse?"

Because it's coming from external sources?  Unless the Pirates are feeding the info to Gammons.  Even then, why would they use Gammons when the info won't even be heard by most Pirates fans?

If the Pirates were trying to make excuses, why wouldn't they leak it to DK or one of the other reporters?

BAB

Gotta love the notion that we can use the commissioner's office as an excuse for our draft strategy not panning out. Only problem is, there is no strict slotting system. Why, then, are any of us accepting this excuse?

________________________________

I did not read any announcements from the Pirates on this issue, where did you read where they came up with an excuse?

Roberto- JAL might have the info.I DO know he's getting 10.5 mil now.I've also read the Sox have been interested already.i would not be shocked if he tops ARoid in salary.Can you say 300 mi/ 10 years?

On February 11, 2007, Mauer agreed to a four-year, $33 million contract with the Twins to avoid arbitration. The deal ensures that Mauer will remain in Minnesota long enough to play in the Twins' Target Field in 2010.[16]l

@BAB,

Kind of throws under the rug the slot-first-rounder-to-pay-later draft strategy huh? If they actually state this as the reason for not signing someone, my support and trust for Huntington & Coonelly goes right out the window.

Mauer is signed through 2010  gets 12.5 mill in 2010.

Yeah, Maz, I think Mauer could just about give Pujols a run for his money as Best Baseball Player on the Planet.

On a somewhat non-related note, Mazbo ... I found the Humble Pie SMOKN' CD this morning at a garage sale ... I was STOKED ridin down the road, window down, airconditionless in the already 90-degree East Texas heat, singin' "Hot and Nasty" at the top of my lungs!

maz,

I would be shocked if his salary tops ARod. Being a catcher, they'll expect his numbers to drop in a few years. I'd say something more along the lines of 7 years, 140 million is more realistic.

We don't even know if it's the Pirates, people.  The Royals drafted a college freshman, so they'd fit Gammons' description of a small-market Central team that hasn't been good lately.

ej

I guess I'm more just asking, regardless of the source, what possible explanation is there that would allow this story to be true?  There is no slotting system. The union should immediately file a grievance if this story is true, as the commissioner is not within his right to prevent a contract on the basis that it is for more than he wanted it to be.

gregenstein-You could be right.I guess it comes down to a bidding war.Of course he was a great athlete in high school so he could play other positions.As a QB one year he threw 41 TDs/3 INTs.I'm willing to bet a 1B could get huge money.Or a 3RD basemen.

The Pirates have made no announcements concerning slot money to draft picks, where are you people getting this stuff from? At least wait until something official is announced before attacking the gates.

Grossman and Miller were signed over slot last year, so strategy is not the issue. Everyone signs players over slot, what do people think is going to happen with Strasburg, do you think he might go for over slot.

@BAB: when clubs are looking to sign a draftee above slot, they're supposed to have the deal 'approved' by the commish's office before inking it.  To my knowledge, the commish has no power to halt the deal, nor does he have the ability to sanction or punish a team for inking a deal he didn't sign off on.

He can, however, shoot them a meanie face and stick his tongue out.

BAB

I am sure that Bud does want teams to adhere to the slotting system and a slap on the wrists here and there might show that he has that much interest in the slotting system, but really do you believe he is going to stop Washington from signing Strasburg to any money that they agree on?

If he lets that go and he surely will, do you think he is going to stop the Pirates from above slot signing?

@ FormerSoxFan

Gammons said it was an NL Central team that hasn't done well for awhile.  It's either us or the Reds ;)

worm

Exactly. And that menacing look should have no bearing on whether the team proceeds with attempting to ink the deal. Therefore, if the commish is the only thing standing in the way of the deal, nothing is standing in the way of the deal.

The Reds fourth round pick Mark Fleury (I'm not joking) signed already, and started his career with Billings June 28th.

Yesterday it was Carthage and Rome, today Shakespeare--Much Ado About Nothing.

Has anyone actually read the piece under discussion about slots?  I have not seen it.  Certainly nothing from the Pirates on it.  Do not even know if it refers to the Pirates.  

leadoff,

I think the point was that Peter Gammons wouldn't blurt that out without their being some sort of truth to it.

Why is there a slotting recommendation anyway? The NHL and NFL seem to get by just fine without this. I can't speak for the NBA as I don't follow it very closely. MLB is the only place where a team would pass on a player that they believe to be better only because he might want more salary than the guy drafted after him.

Bay-Too bad Steve Marriott had to die at such a young age.

From Peter Gammon's blog on ESPN :

"One small-market Central Division team that hasn't done very well for years has essentially completed a deal with its fourth-round pick, who isn't a college junior and thus has bargaining leverage. But the commissioner's office doesn't like that the agreed-upon number is above slot and has refused to sign off, so the player hasn't gotten out there and is being kept from what the team decided is his market value."

Here's the link the whole post:

insider.espn.go.com/.../index

I apologize FormerSoxFan, it does only say central (I thought it said NL).  It could certainly be the Royals, but hey they had a winning record like 4 years ago so it can't be, can it???  ;)

I think Mauer is a franchise player and unfortunately is too expensive for a small market team, this is where we separate the small market from the big market teams. The Yankees would pay him because they can, the Twins will not sign him because they can't.

If the Pirates get a franchise player, the same thing is going to happen to that player, right now the Pirates do not have any franchise players, so if we got one tomorrow, we would not have to worry about it for a long time.

But the Twins have to start worrying about it now because 2010 will be here and they have to move him or lose him with little compensation.

There fan base will go banana's, because like most fans they won't understand the system.

DON'T GET ATTACHED TO PLAYERS, THAT ERA IS GONE!

@ BAB,

The Reds can have Mark.

We'll keep Marc-Andre.

YEAHHHHH BOY-EEEEEEEEEE!

From last thread - the Seattle writer didn't once consider that maybe the PBC scout was there to scout the Rangers, the team in 1st place that had a 4 1/2 game lead over Seattle in the AL West before last night's game. Don't know much about the Texas team; Grabow might look very good in their pen.

JAL - thanks for the Joel Young reference from earlier thread.  Let me take the question to the absurd extreme.  Do you know if he could have played in SAME game for two teams?  If in Wed night's game, he played for Team A.  Game is delayed in 7th inning of a tie game and continued when Team B returns to town again in three weeks.  During the 3-week delay, Team A trades that player to Team B.  Do you know if he can enter the SAME game for Team B that he played in for Team A?

"DON'T GET ATTACHED TO PLAYERS, THAT ERA IS GONE!"

@ Leadoff

BLASPHEMY! BLASPHEMY!

Leadoff - the Twins move into a new park next year. No way they deal Mauer before next year's trade deadline.

www.twinsballpark2010.com/.../Home.html

Greg

Why is there a slotting recommendation anyway

______________________________

The big problem is not the slot system, for the most part it does keep some balance to the draft, Agents are the real problem, like Boras. The Nats are really going to have fun with him before they are done.

oops...thanks Wagnalls and JAL...just found your earlier post...I was reading these backwards.  That makes sense...can't reenter a game for same team, no different for 2 teams.

Today's Pirates Report Ryan Howard has a .123 career average in 81 at-bats against the Pirates. That is actually one of the coolest averages (at least for those not involved with/rooting for them): .12345679012345679012345679012346...

As for the Rays building an academy in Brazil, I still think it's time for the Bucs to invest in this untapped market. The investment doesn't have to be huge, and quite probably they could count on government incentives, depending on the state/city they choose to build at. The Rays chose a countryside city, Marília, which is not a tiny city with a population of around 225,000, but it's not among the 50 largest in the country. After it's ready there's a chance it will become some sort of "baseball Mecca" for Brazilians. Depending on how they administer it, could be very important to the sport around here.

On a positive note:

Top pick Tony Sanchez is tearing it up at WV.  

I'm tellin ya, we need to move Doumit now before teams catch on that he'll only be able to play about 100 games a season (MAYBE).

@gregenstein - <Why is there a slotting recommendation anyway? The NHL and NFL seem to get by just fine without this.>

The NFL has a system like this in place. It was agreed upon by the league and the NFLPA so the rookies can't fight it. They are basically negotiating a bonus.

By the way I just wanted to point out that I just noticed Dejan's very approriately titled headline for the morning links.  When I used to publish articles in college, one of the most fun aspects was coming up with a headline, and I always liked when someone would notice and give me positive feedback, so there you go.

JAL

Is it legal to copy a quote from an article and post it?

leadoff

If agents were the problem, players wouldn't hire them and/or would fire the problems.  There's a reason Scott Boras rarely gets fired, and is hired by numerous top-notch talents every year. Players WANT the advocacy he offers.  I am so tired of people saying he should be banned or he does his clients an injustice. He works for them. If they wanted to sign and play right away, they could a) do so with him as their representative against his advice, b) fire him, c) instruct him to get them a deal that gets them to play right away and fire him if that fails.  Agents are exactly that: agents contracted-with to do the bidding of their principals: in this case, players.  

Alexandre

That is an AWESOME stat. Love it. The Pirates should walk and bean him all week to ensure the stat stays the same.

Also, is there a big baseball scene in Brazil?  I understand there are lots of people, but how interested are they in baseball?  There are 5x more people in the US than in Brazil, but the comparative enthusiasm for soccer has led to our relative positions in that sports' hierarchy.  I am not saying there ISN'T enthusiasm for baseball in Brazil, I'm just wondering, because I do not know.

Joggin

What a bad spot for the Twinkies, they can have Mauer at the start of the 2010 season, they will have no choice but to move him by July 31 of that year, they will be in the first year of their new ball park, might be a contender. Talk about PR nightmares.

So is this 6 (at least five) more signings from Latin America than during the entire Littlefield era?

In regards to Gammons, over the past few years I have lost more and more respect for his work.  I think he floats too much stuff out there...which he didn't before.  He gets it right with his favorites -Yanks and the beloved Red Sox.  When I see him or hear him on ESPN  it seems that he doesn't even speak in complete sentences or finishes sentences.  (and yes, I know he had some health problems a few years back)

leadoff

It is legal to post a quotation or a paragraph if you give credit.  More than a few sentences gets into legal areas.  

Why didn't i

that fits the Royals too as they drafted a college freshman at #4

Royals fans are certain the Gammons post means them:

www.royalsreview.com/.../freshman-pitcher-chris-dwyer

Just to address the latest conspiracy theory --

MLB puts a great deal of pressure on teams not to announce signings that are significantly over slot until shortly before the signing deadline.  Everybody goes along with this, not just the Pirates.  The idea is to keep unsigned players from relying on the above-slot signings in their negotiations.  Baseball America ran a story just a few days ago noting that there have been no announced signings by any team that went more than a little over slot.  (The Pirates went over slot with Victor Black, for instance, but only very slightly.)  MLB can't and won't stop the Pirates from signing anybody, but they can pressure the Pirates, and all 29 other teams, into delaying the announcements.

BAB

Yep, Gammons was cryptic so it can apply to at least two teams.  

WTM

Thanks for that clear explanation.

WTM

And see, that is destructive because it affirmatively prevents young players from getting pro experience this season.  And that's the league's mandate? Ridiculous.  

@WTM: agents often share this info.

BAB-i hate to nit pick.....yeah right! Anyway there are almost 200 million people in Brazil.BTW if you are curious about the popularity of baseball in Brazil,ask our own Alexandre Giesbrecht.

At the risk of turning this into a frenzy like yesterday...

1) Courtesy of MLBTradeRumors, a guy with a Tacoma newspaper is reporting that Yuniesky Betancourt is healthy, but was pulled from his rehab assignment game yesterday.

2) While on assignment, Betancourt was apparently playing 2B, though he's normally a shortstop.

3) Pirates had a scout for the Mariners/Rangers game yesterday.

Now, I really think the FO would have to get more for Sanchez than Betancourt (hence the scout?). But is this the possible trade in the works?

Again, I don't want to start a riot in the asylum, but just trying to report.

Dejan - if you're out there reading this thread...wanted to let you know that i tried to send you an email and a comment last week but the server wouldnt let me.  Was in response to our comments re: Charities sign...seeing it from the outside of PNC Park.  Short anwser...I drove by the outside of the stadium soon after I sent my post, and now that i see the sign from that perspective, i get your point.

maz

Sorry. For some reason, I thought I read 50 million.  And I was asking Alexandre.  

With the hubbub on the trades and whatnot, and with me being on vacation this week and having some free time, I wrote an article on the trades of the franchise of the last 10 years or so, and following those players through the system.  Amazingly bad results, which was encouraging that we are doing things right.  If anyone is interested in my research, here is the article I posted a few minutes ago. Ricky Rincon - MVP of the last 10 years.

joerozsa.com/.../pirates-fans-relax-these-trades-might-just-work

BAB-No need to apologize.Just keep on blogging.I just flung that out there.God knows I make TONS of mistakes.Usually DMac catches mine.The girl is pretty sharp.

Looks like Seattle writer may think Betancourt is headed to Pirates.

seattletimes.nwsource.com/.../2009443180_seattle_mariners_gm_jack_zduri.html

"What a bad spot for the Twinkies, they can have Mauer at the start of the 2010 season, they will have no choice but to move him by July 31 of that year, they will be in the first year of their new ball park, might be a contender. Talk about PR nightmares".

Joe Mauer is from Minnesota and from what I have read he is willing to take a hometown discount, so it is not a guarantee that he will be traded.  Minnesota has also shown they will spend money to keep their better players, like Torii Hunter, who was there past his free agent years.

As someone who lived in Minneapolis during their late 80s WS time, I can say that the fans there will definitely increase attendance when they go into their new ballpark, which should be quite nice. Of course, they are pretty good now, and their attendance is 10K/game better than the Pirates.

But the Metrodome is a horrible place to see a ball game.

Two thoughts if I may share them, 1rst if Peter Gammons had anything more than vague hearsay or if he was the reporter he used to be he would have specified the team not left his statement as vague as it was. Second thought, our PBC had scouts at the Mariners - Yankees game last week so it would appear, at least to my muddled brain, there is some serious interest on our part in the Mariners.

Maz...Being Detail Gal is a blessing and a curse.  ;-)

Here's some updated thoughts from the Seattle Times, to piggyback MarkinDallas's post:

seattletimes.nwsource.com/.../2009446485_deals_involving_mariners_short.html

If they were somehow to pry Greg Halman from the M's, that would be a huge coup.  BA rated him as Seattle's #1 prospect, and he was the organization's minor league POY last year.  A true power bat.

Having said all that, I can't see Freddy being enough to get someone like Halman.  Maybe if the Bucs picked up some salary.

"Mauer Staying Power?"

insider.espn.go.com/.../index

Yuniesky Betancourt?????

That is silly, and would be maaking a trade to make a trade. He is less than nothing ( Sorry mrs. Betancourt) and I have more faith in the FO than this ( and regular posters here know how much faith I have in the FO)

He is a poor fielder, doesn't walk, doesn't steal, doesn't hit for power and if rumors are to be believed has already been sat down as a "message"

He is 28 in less than six months and in 4 years of Major league baseball has  shown... yech..

Maybe I'm missing something, but no way do you take this back for a 3 time all-star/former batting champ. Unless the second coming of Lou Gehrig comes with him. ( and with the Pirate's luck, it would be the ALS Lou Gehrig)

WWWYP

Mauer might take a discount, but not with a difference of millions however, the amount of money that will come his way is going to be huge.

I am sure they will try to put a deal together before the trade deadline, but if they can't the Twins will have no choice but to move him.

I think players do discounts, but they are not normally done when millions separate the two parties.

They parted with Santana, they parted with Tory Hunter in the end they will part with Mauer IMO.

Suppose Strasburg does get $12 million. So now what? I think the first round pick in the NFL gets something at least double that in guarantees, and there's still high probability of a flop. I guess I'm a free market kind of a guy, but my thinking is that is a team and a player reach an agreement, the commish shouldn't be able to kill it. Otherwise, he might as well just assign draft picks XX dollars, take it or leave it. Personally, I also think the draft order should be randomized every year. Teams should not be rewarded for ineptitude with high draft picks.

Although Betancourt is not as good as WIlson, this could be a good thing for the Pirates, as it would at least prevent embarrassing baseball from happening while the system is developing.

@BayAreaBuccaneer:

Baseball is pretty much an "underground scene" in Brazil. It is mostly played by Japanese immigrants and their descendants (Brazil has the biggest Japanese population outside Japan). Whenever people learn I actually like baseball, they give me looks like I'd just told them I like to read books in ancient Greek.

But I know there's some potential because of some projects where baseball was treated as a social response to poor conditions, especially in the most humble parts of cities. This is what the Rays are doing in Marília. In São Paulo there is a project that's been underfunded (I don't know how they manage to stay afloat, but they do), working with poor kids in a suburb — in Brazil, suburbs are usually associated to poor people. They get very little support from City Hall, yet they've managed to send a few kids to other programs, usually ran by Japanese descendants.

In bigger cities, there are a few groups that gather every week or so to play outside of the few baseball clubs around. They play wherever they find a place, it can be a soccer pitch (or sand), a park, anywhere. But this is just for fun, even though some of them do have plans to attend programs in the Japanese clubs.

These Japanese clubs used to be open just for Japanese descendants, but this has been changing over the past few years, and the biggest one in São Paulo actually now has a program for adults who never played baseball before. This is a program I've been willing to attend for several months, but their schedule is terrible to me.

Brazilian sports interest is mostly soccer, and even the success the volleyball national team has been having in the past decade hasn't taken that sport out of the limbo in the mainstream media. You guys in the US are used to sports sections in newspapers being devoted to all sorts of sports; here it's 90% soccer and the rest distributed almost evenly to other sports, when they are relevant enough to be mentioned.

This is a situation that probably will never change, so baseball would have to grab a piece of those 10%. It has one thing going against it, which is the general perception of it being an "American" sport, which does not go well with a general "Anti-Americanism" that unfortunately seems to be "hip" around here. It doesn't matter to these short-minded people that baseball probably is the number 2 sport in the rest of Latin America. Well, Brazilians usually don't consider themselves "Latin Americans", because the rest of the region is so different, starting with the different language they speak. :)

Enthusiasm for baseball here can be traced to friends' influence, to the rare ESPN coverage, to video-games, to a period when one has lived in the US or to one living very close to where the sport is played (BTW, none of these fit how I started following baseball). Some initiative like the Rays are doing in Marília, which seems to be generating some attention from the local media — www.diariodemarilia.com.br/.../Time-de-Beisebol-dos-EUA-anuncia-centro-de-treinamento —, could lead to a small change in this scenario. If the Pirates are to jump on the bandwagon, the time is now, because "early birds" might get more government incentives. The Rays are getting some US$ 400,000 from the Brazilian federal government, plus US$ 750,000 from the city of Marília, which they will counterpart (according to the link I published, which also mentions an annual investment of US$ 750 million — R$ 1,5 billion —, which is definitely a typo).

As for the Brazilian population, maz is right: we're close to 200 million. Sorry for the long post. And here's to intentionally walking Howard all series! :)

Doc,

You're assuming that it would be a straight-up Freddy/Betancourt trade.  I doubt that would be the case.

And no, nothing about Betancourt excites me.  He's Jack offensively (maybe a wee bit better), but average at best defensively.

I think we are missing the point when it comes to moving Sanchez.

He has a high salary, taking Freddies salary and giving us very little would be an even trade to most of the teams the Pirates are dealing with. The fact that he is overpaid does figure into the trading equation.

So if you are one of the people that thinks we are going to get anything for him, you are only going to be right if the Pirates throw some bucs toward his salary or toss another player into the mix.

Doc,

The seeming trade would involve Betancourt basically to rid Seattle of him and provide the Pirates at least a ML shortstop to address their lack of one, plus send the PIrates a bunch of prospects that could develop in the minors.

So ignoring all of the typical silly bickering going on today, I was hoping to start a fresh topic to debate.

Way back in the coverage leading up to the start of the 2006 season, Dejan wrote what I believe was his 2nd or 3rd major article on the subject of our lack of international presence www.post-gazette.com/.../678750-63.stm

He mentions a few key things, The Brewer's raised the bar by signing two players to a total about 1.5 or 1.6 million. They were  Rolando Pascual  www.minorleaguebaseball.com/.../stats.jsp and Wily Peralta www.minorleaguebaseball.com/.../stats.jsp. He also mentions that some scouts accussed the Brewers of overpaying in the name of publicity. Then DK when speaking with Gayo who then mentions two guys the Pirates signed SS, Starlin Cespedes www.minorleaguebaseball.com/.../stats.jsp and 1B, Alex Vargas www.minorleaguebaseball.com/.../stats.jsp  

Now the bucs got our two guys for about 250k, or about 1.2 mill less. From looking at the Milb.com numbers of the four, it appears we got the better players as well (Cespedes appears to be a National now though which is confusing). Vargas appears to have clicked at the end of last summer and Cespedes has improved every year, .150 his first year in the DSL, 190 the 2nd, 220 the 3rd and now .240 in the 4th.

I'm thinking that while Sano appears to be a stud, it might seems to more sense to sign 6 Sterling Martes then go for the publicity on this. I look forward to getting some more in depth analysis on the 6 guys we signed, and hope we continue to sign more guys.

Leadoff

The twins kept torii hunter until he was 32 and Mauer will only be 27 when he becomes a free agent.

I do not know if you read the link, but Olney says comparing santana to mauer might be apples to oranges for reasons such as, his agent and Mauer being a local product.

There is a good chance at him leaving but I think it is closer to 50/50 than 100% that he is gone.

Also from the Gammons column

"The slotting system doesn't work because teams like the Yankees, Tigers and Red Sox don't care what the commissioner tells them," one general manager said. "So the teams that are poorer or beholden to Bud Selig can't draft the players they want. Look at what happened to the Pirates all those years. But now what is happening is that because of the job Selig and MLB has done with revenue sharing, there is a lot of money out there. So rather than fight with Selig, they're throwing it around at 16-year-olds in the Dominican."

Just took a look at the Seattle Post's website, with the comments following.

In this site, you very rarely see only one side of an argument. For better or worse, both supporters & detractors of players/FO types are heard. I would assume (& I know what happens when I assume) that most sites are like that.

I saw precisely zero good comments on the Seattle paper's site regarding Betancourt.

"Just took a look at the Seattle Post's website, with the comments following.

In this site, you very rarely see only one side of an argument. For better or worse, both supporters & detractors of players/FO types are heard. I would assume (& I know what happens when I assume) that most sites are like that.

I saw precisely zero good comments on the Seattle paper's site regarding Betancourt."

----------------------------------------------------------

Maybe their expectations are higher.

He's not a great player by any stretch, but could serve as a stopgap so we're not totally embarrassed at SS for the next year or two if Jack goes.  But offensively there's little difference between Betancourt and Jack.  We'd miss Jack's defense, obviously.

Having said all this, there's no confirmation that the Pirates are even interested in him.  He could've been held out due to some other team's interest.

@ Mark,

That assumes Betancourt is a major leagaue SS. In fact he was the 2nd worst SS in the league by UZR and the worst by Plus/minus . As such, the Pirates pitchers, last in the league in K's will watch their opponents batting average against and ERA's go up.

This is a silly trade target.

BTW on Halman, He is young, but the Pirates do not have the track record of teaching plate discipline that the Cards do, would be taking a big risk. Here is a piece from a Seattle blog:

"So far in the WBC, Halman has seen 40 pitches over 11 at bats against the likes of Edinson Volquez, Pedro Martinez, Carlos Marmol, Ian Snell, Damaso Marte, Carlos Silva, Fernando Cabrera, and Giancarlo Alvarado. The results of those 40 pitches:

32 strikes

8 balls

22 swings

16 swinging strikes

9 called strikes

1 foul bunt

16 misses on 22 swings is a contact rate of 27%. The Major League average is 81%, and the worst mark of any non-pitcher last year to collect at least 50 at bats was Reggie Abercrombie, at 60%."

I am anxious for power, and he seems like he'll have that, but so does Pearce, but he too has a lot of holes in his swing.

My wife just sent me a message saying that Doumit is going to be in Philly for tonights game and he is going to be activated from the DL early.  She saw this on Facebook, under the Pirates section.  Not sure who will be sent down to Indy to make room for Doumit.  

FSF

Do you know if Bentancourt is better than Vaszuez?

I know very little about him.

sportsillustrated.cnn.com

The story art for "Summer Sports Bargains" has a picture of a Pittsburgh Pirate baseball player with the words "Minor League Baseball" under him as one of the summer sports bargains.  Probably unintentional, but hilarious nonetheless.

From Keith Law's twitter regarding the Gammon's article which mentioned the commissioner's office not signing off on draft pick signings. The questioner assumes it's the Pirates the article refers to:

"They can delay, but all the Pirates have to do is threaten to go to court and MLB will fold. They have no choice but to approve."

Not sure what that all means, may give credence to the "Using the commish office as an excuse" theory.

SoxFan,

I'm sure they all have high hopes, & many think the world of that team. Just that it's odd that he had nobody defending him.

If he does come here, I think it would have to be as part of a (gulp!) package deal.

Good point about going to another team, though.

leadoff,

I like that quote and it makes my point. Slotting is dumb and really doesn't hold down costs anyway. Selig doesn't even really stick up for the small market teams anyway, so why should they listen to him. He's basically enabling the Red Sox and Yankees by making the little guys draft inferior players and sign them at slot. They should all be ignoring him since the Brewers were basically "PBC-North" for 10 years until he gave up most of his ownership and say in the team.

I would not be surprised to see both Wilson and Sanchez go to the Mariners in the same deal. This would make the Mariners significantly better both offensively and defensively. They would get an out of the box great DP combo up the middle, both of which are offensively superior to what they have, and they could have Lopez, their current 2B DH instead of Griffey, who is really struggling and can't run at all now.

Another view on Betancourt, then I'm done until he is a Pirate.

and

@JoeBucco... very nice article. I hope these trades do work out but as you conclude ) if not saying so) trading MLBers for prospects is almost never a sure thing.

oops forgot the link:

www.lookoutlanding.com/.../a-bit-of-a-rant-about-yuniesky

WietersforPrez, I think that's the uni of the GCL Pirates...

Leadoff,

I'd say he's a slight upgrade over Vasquez.  His defensive metrics have been really bad the last two seasons, prior to that he was around average.  Offensively, like I said, he's pretty much a Jack clone (maybe a slight bit better since he's in the AL).  So he's an upgrade over Vasquez, but should certainly not be the centerpiece of any deal.

Wieters... I suspect that WAS intentional. What a slap to the once fabled PBC

Wieters:

"sportsillustrated.cnn.com

The story art for "Summer Sports Bargains" has a picture of a Pittsburgh Pirate baseball player with the words "Minor League Baseball" under him as one of the summer sports bargains.  Probably unintentional, but hilarious nonetheless."

It's intentional, but that's a Pirate minor leaguer.  Bradenton I think.

Still, only a denizen of Bradenton or a Pirate fan such as yourself would think it is the GCL Pirates.

Nope, I suspect there is some graphic web designer at Si with a wicked sense of humor

You guys are reading WAY too much into things.  It's a minor leaguer.

Alexandre

Thanks for all of the info. No apology for the long post needed, it was extremely informative.  I would love to see us get involved in South America.  Brazil may be soccer-focused, but there remains a palpable enthusiasm for sports that I would hope we could tap -- obviously the Rays agree.  Very interesting stuff, thanks a lot!

Good discussion of trade possibilities.

I think that there is going to be significantly more activity if Freddie is moved. Why? The PBC pitching staff, as currently configured, includes a lot of pitch-to-contact guys.

Take away your dependable middle infielders and the routine outs become basehits. With Huntington's propensity for seeking "power arms," to me it makes sense that he is going to revamp the chemistry of the current group of starters. This is why I think Doumit will go in a package with say, Duke or Gorzo/Snell.

The pitching staff we have is relective of who is playing behind them. IF they are able to trade Freddie and Jack, then you have to rethink the starting pitching. You should also consider that without the slick infield, the current starters will not look nearly as good next year as they do this year, thus their value is at it's peak now.

Jose

He takes less walks than Jack, doesn't bunt and swings at everything. Doesn't steal. On the good side, he does make contact. Much, Much, less a defender, close hitter ( though Jack is much better this year) cheaper, Fatter ( which is what seemed to take his fielding away) and at times a head case. Yes, maybe he can room on the road with Snell.

I have a relative in Seattle, and he'd pay us to take him. He can't believe we would ever trade for him

@Doc,

there's going to be a dropoff at SS no matter who we get to replace Jack. Jack is one of the top defensive SS in the league. I think the goal here is to not be horrible while things develop in the minors.

@leadoff,

Betancourt would surely be better than Ramon Vasquez at SS, but he's not going to be great.

Another wrinkle might be that they are actually thinking about Betancourt for 2B. In the article, it says Betancourt also started working out at 2B for an unknown reason.

Gregenstein wrote:   I think the first round pick in the NFL gets something at least double that in guarantees, and there's still high probability of a flop.

_________________________________________________

I'm too lazy to look this stuff up, but I'm pretty sure the flop rate of first-round draft picks in MLB is way, way higher than that in the NFL, NBA, and NHL.  I remember a joke I read (I think in SI) about it:  NFL and NHL first-rounders end up making the Hall of Fame; MLB first-rounders end up making burgers.

I don't know why this is, but it seems to me that the best way to compensate for this would be to acquire as many players as possible on the hopes that the at least a few of them pan out.  As Stalin said:  "There is a certain quality in quantity."  I think you can scout all you want, but it appears that many of them are wrong about as often as they're right, and there's no scout in the world who can account for dumb luck and future injury.

That's why I think the PBC should get into India in a big way.  It's got a huge population and it's be getting in on the ground floor.  I put more thought into this in my post to the Morning Link thread, if anyone is interested.

Just my opinion.  I can't believe I quoted Stalin; I think I need a shower now.

POWERarms. My favorite word. And I can see why we want more with all the success they have had. Why look at Morris, Doumatrait, Yates, Hanrahan, Hansen, Veal ( who am I missing) have brought to the Pirates.

As I have said, I would take 5 Greg Maddux clones over 100 Paul Wagner clones. There is pitching and there is throwing.

Greg

I like that quote and it makes my point. Slotting is dumb and really doesn't hold down costs anyway. Selig doesn't even really stick up for the small market teams anyway, so why should they listen to him. He's basically enabling the Red Sox and Yankees by making the little guys draft inferior players and sign them at slot. They should all be ignoring him since the Brewers were basically "PBC-North" for 10 years until he gave up most of his ownership and say in the team.

___________________________

My point is that people are always ready to throw the Bucs under the bus before they know what is really going on, sometimes we need to know more first.

Gregenstein,

slotting is basically legal collusion to keep rookie dollars low

That should be "reflective..."

Further thought: Look at the types of outfielders Huntington has gotten in the trades thus far: Quick. Covers a lot of ground. Sure things to track those long fly balls...

Mark

Betancourt would surely be better than Ramon Vasquez at SS, but he's not going to be great.

Another wrinkle might be that they are actually thinking about Betancourt for 2B. In the article, it says Betancourt also started working out at 2B for an unknown reason.

_____________________________

A routine SS can be a very good 2nd basemen, Shortstops that are blocked in the minor league systems are often converted to top  2nd basemen. Freddie is one of them.

Mark, are you sure Betancourt would be better thanVaxquez at Short?. I'd guess they were about the same. Since Betancourt found Twinkies and Tadtykakes, he is nowhere near the fielder he once was. In fact, I'd rather see Cruz or Bixler than him, and I really, really don't want to see Cruz or Bixler

It is obvious that NH wants to go toward more power arms and pitchers with superior stuff and away from the soft tossers that have been the mainstay of the staff for years. So I would definitely see Duke moving out. That their numbers will probably decline is a good indication that he will probably try to move them sooner rather than later.

I would not be surprised to see MLB find a way to include Duke on the all-star team if Freddy is moved. That also will help NH shop him soon after the break.

On the other hand, I think Doumit will have to prove that he can be healthy for a season before he will fetch anything worthwhile.

Jose, except the ones that go over walls. This organization has no power at any level save Pedro and maybe Adam. Thet are built as a groundball team who will need to eek out 2-1 wins. If we start giving up lots of 2 run homers, the Prates will lose 110 next year.

BREAKING NEWS!!!

The Pirates signed Robert "Tagg" Bozied to a Minor League deal. Bozied, an infielder, has spent parts of the past eight seasons with various Triple-A teams.

Wasn't he one of the prospects we wanted in the Giles trade days?

Doc--thanks for the link on Betancourt. Makes me think, again, that he'd have to be part of a package. Not sure how much interest I'd have in it, though.

@BayAreaBuccaneer:

I'd love to see the Bucs opening an academy here in São Paulo. So maybe Willi would be able to play for the Pirates in 25 years? :) And I can guarantee no Scott Boras would make him accept any offer other than the Pirates'!

Marília is too far away for me to take him. Here's a picture www.estacoesferroviarias.com.br/.../marilia28.jpg of the first train that got to Marília, back in 1928. Maybe they'll make a reception like this for the Rays? :D

Leadoff, agreed.

But why trade a good hitter for a poor one on a team devoid of good hitters.

This is why it makes no sense. Mo upside, and you either replace a fair hit, good d ss with a fai,r hit bad d ss, or  replace a fair d god hit 2bman with a fair d fair hit 2nd baseman.

It is a lose proposition either way. I'd rather have Young. At least he has upside , is young and hasn't gotten fat yet.

Doc,

You may be right. We'll just have to see if he really might be pegged for 2B instead.

D- Dubya, isn't he 31?

@ JoeBucco

Nice look at the moves and how they've panned out over all of these years.  You speak exactly to my point.  We have to get as much talent as possible into our farm system at this point (quality and QUANTITY).  Hell, if I were them I'd have a Pirates HS Showcase in every state just to get a jump on the HS talent.  

By bringing in enough players, whatever they are b/c baseball is the biggest hit or miss sport in terms of young talent, hopefully enough guys pan out at the right time to get a core of good young players together.  Look how long TB had to wait for what they had last year.  When you can't spend a lot of money and you're farm system is completely void of talent (b/c you draft poorly, are absent in the int'l market, and make horrible trades to try to stay competitive @ the Big League level) that your #4 prospect in the entire organization is Yoslan Herrara, it's going to take awhile.  Basically, this losing streak could go on another 6-10 years b/c that minors system / international presence / FO decisions / Talent Evaluation was so bad.

They started out on a path last season with Huntington and Coonelly.  Huntington has seen how to build a farm system with the Indians.  He knows the process.  He knows it takes time.  He knows he's financially constrained.  He knows he'll have to make unpopular moves.   The good thing is that he is acting progressively towards bettering this organization.  Like they said, .500 is not a goal.  

They want winning for many years here.  I know some of the older fans were hating on me yesterday saying things like I ACTUALLY saw Roberto.  I can't help that I was born in 1986.  I can't help that I was 6 the last time the Pirates had an above .500 ballclub and that I'm 23 now.  I don't want 1 .500 season flameout like the Royals had 4-5 seasons ago.  I want contending baseball for years and years.  I understand there will be down seasons (I mean c'mon, even the Yankees have a down period every now and then), but I want as many good if not more.  I know you do too, but I just feel that criticizing people for things that we have no idea about doesn't help anyone.  You can stay positive, yet still be honest.

The current major leaguers we have will never win nething....together.  But, if our talent evaluation is better, we can package these current guys to other teams (who they can help win...they are pros...it's just that this combination of pros isn't very good) for their young MAYBES, well perhaps we find that right combo.

I just wanted to make one comment about the possible (imminent) Freddy Sanchez trade....

What other NL team would Freddy be an All-Star on?  I'm guilty of over-valuing our players b/c we've become attached to them too, but we have to be realistic.  Freddy is a solid, 31 year old 2nd baseman who is over-paid.  His 8 million dollar option will trigger and in no way would ne GM pay $8 million for Freddy Sanchez.  Some on here are already balking @ Freddy strait up for Yuneksy.  I balk @ that too b/c that goes against the plan.  Bring in as many young players as possible from 1 or 2 guys.  I can't see Neal doing that.  It would go against (basically a complete 180) everything he has done to this point in his (short) tenure as GM.

Wow, that was a lot, but I had to leave the Freddy chat yesterday when I had a lot to say, so this was basically me getting my thoughts out from yesterday after I read JoeBucco's article.  I recommend to everyone, even just to see how all those older trades have interspliced into our current team.

BTW... agree with Keith Olberman. No way the Commissioner's office goes to the mats with this. Slotting is a "recommendation" not a requirement. I am sure Coonelly who basically invented the slotting system knew what he was doing with the draft practices of the Pirates.

MarkInDallas wrote re: Pirates sign six Latin players

on Fri, Jul 10 2009 7:24 PM

It is obvious that NH wants to go toward more power arms

I thnk it important to remember to mix a bit.  having two sizzlers with a duke sitting between them does well in keeping the opposing hitters off balance.

I hope to see a mixture of styles.

BTw... I gotta go do something. I am feeling snarky, and don't wish to be. Good luck all.

The Tagg signing points to how much help the PIrates feel they need in the minors. Even though he may never help the big club, they feel like they need bodies that can help each level win.

@Doc

If the slotting system amounted to collusion the players' union would sue faster than you could say stephen strasburg.  In fact it often benefits players in the long run by fast tracking them to the playing field instead of having to wait their turn in the pecking order.  Compare Pedro Alvarez and Tony Sanchez.  By signing and playing meaningful ball this year Sanchez could end up reaching the big leagues shortly after Alvarez does.  Under the current CBA the dollars he'll make at the end of his career will be far greater than the extra 2 or three million a hold out might want as a signing bonus.  By contrast, Boras may have cost Alvarez a year or two of his big league career by holding him out last season.  A year or two of really big money.

@ Doc: you missed Ohlendorf, who WAS a power arm at the acquisition date.

I agree that a 96 mph fastball can often be found going just as quickly the other way and over the fence. That said, I can only make inferences based on what I can see and so far it seems that the middle infield is not viewed as importantly as guys who can run down the gap shots.

Like as not Neal is reading this and laughing his buns off reading my analysis...

Jose

"Nope, I suspect there is some graphic web designer at Si with a wicked sense of humor"

=====================================================

That's "The Gift" Ngoepe in that picture, I'm guessing in the Bradenton uni, but could also be ST uni as well.  I don't think it was a mistake that they picked a Pirate minor leaguer, howeva ;0

WhyDidn'tI,

Great post. But as far as Freddy's value is concerned, I think he's the 2nd best 2B in the NL. So that says to me he has made the all star team on merit, not as a charity case.

As for his value against Betancourt, there's no comparison. Betancourt is worth far far less. Obviously, this would not be a trade straight up for Betancourt. In fact, the Mariners would like to get rid of Betancourt and his salary, which is 2009:$2M, 2010:$3M, 2011:$4M. So the PIrates would actually be doing them a favor by taking that contract. As much as anyone thinks Freddy is overpaid, Betancourt is about to be WAY overpaid, since they don't even want him to be starting on the Mariners.

The question is what package of prospects could the Mariners offer that NH would be interested in. I just don't know, but I'm guessing we'll find out soon.

"There is pitching and there is throwing."

=============================================

@ Doc

Yes, but velocity has nothing to do with your above statement.  You can be a thrower and throw 89 (Virgil Vasquez).  You can be a pitcher and throw 100 (Randy Johnson).    

Neal's strategy of trying to acquire a lot of POWERarms goes along with his overall strategy, of trying to acquire just a crap load of talent.  He's hoping that in all these POWERarms he acquires (especially the 21 or 22 year olds), that some of these guys are PITCHERS and not just throwers.  2 things that our pitching staff lacks are 1) a legit # one, and 2) Strikeouts.  Finding a diamond in the rough with 1 or 2 of these POWERarms would address both of these needs.

That being said, he may never find 1, or it could take a while, but like the slogan that I came up with yesterday, "It's been 16+ seasons, what's 3 or 4 more going to hurt"

I know you love it!

With that said, he may never find one

As the world turns--away for 9o0 min and haven't missed too much--Wagnalls is right--can't be collusion if it out in the open.  Collusion is hidden.  

@ MarkinDallas

I think Orlando Hudson is now the 2nd best behind Utley.  Freddy's batting champ year was his best season and he'll never come close to that again.  He'll be a .300 hitter, but not .344 (or was it .346?), with ok GAP power (no HR power) and good defensive skills.  

I'm just saying, if he wasn't on the Pirates, would he be a now 3 time all-star?

ants marching===============================================

game thread up

RE: Doumit...The reporter who covers Indy said DOumit didn't make the trip to Toledo, so I would not be surprised to see him tonight in Philly.  

I can't wait until DK gets settled and is able to get us updated on it.

WhyDidn't I,

Sanchez is a very good defensive 2B, and here are their numbers this year:

Hudson (.285/.354/.414/.768)

Sanchez (.316/.355/.477/.832)