Pirates 'pushing' to trade Sanchez

Unless siginifcant talent is returned in a Sanchez deal it will be hard to consider this anything more than a salary dump.  Of course if they use that money to sign Sano and some of their above slot draftees it may be worth it.  The thought of Young playing second base every day is scary....from a defensive standpoint.

So..when we trade Freddy today. We will have no all-star representative. D Young will be playing second base, and will be net a couple Single A players who we will never see in Pittsburgh.

Sounds like a solid Bucco plan.

I, for one, have supported many of the FO's moves to date.  If Freckle is traded, it will be extremely hard to see this as anything other than a salary dump.  I possibly could've understood it in light of another move made prior to this that gave the Bucs another option at 2nd base, but that simply has not happened yet...

Well, we will just have to wait and see what happens.

Well this is definitely a salary dump if they're pushing...

Why are we dumping salary?????

I agree with the first poster, this is a huge mistake.  There is no reason in the world other than money to trade Sanchez.  The guy flat-out produces.

They'll need to trade Jack then or he'll really blow up if they trade his other half.  As long as we get a 2B or AAA SS in the deal this will make sense. I  McLouth n' Morgan wasn't a problem - good deals - this will be harder to swallow for the rest of this season.

Would hate to see Freddy go, and we clearly don't have a viable replacement, but would be consistent with the current philosophy so I can't say I'm surprised.  

I've noticed that D'Arnaud has made a couple appearances at 2B in Lynchburg.  With Ford's bat and Negrych's glove they can't be seen as candidates yet, so our top potential replacement is in High A.  Ouch.

Generally, I've been supportive of the moves made this year by the front office, but taking a stab at signing Wilson and Sanchez to 3-4 year extensions would do a lot in terms of (sorely needed) local public relations AND stability for positions where the replacement options are still pretty far removed from the big leagues.  I don't see either guy cashing in big time in free agency.

Why don't you guys see if it happens first, then see the return before you criticize.

So far Neal and Frank have done a decent job (IMO) so before we crucify, let's see what happens.

So before I start screaming at my computer, does anyone know if Colorado has anything we want?

I'm really trying to stay positive. Not sure if that will last much longer.

seriously!!!  How much could Sanchez bring in a trade and who plays second,  young.  Unless they get a really great offer I say hold off as long as possible maybe off season.  I know there record isn't great, but they are still only 7 or so games out.  The way the league is beating up on each other a winning streak (which they have not had) could bring them back into the pack.  May not happen but I won't write them off yet.  WE have the pitching that can make a streak happen with some timely hitting.  Maybe doumit coming back could be a spark.

Maybe I'm dreaming.

If the rumors are true about Eric Young Jr. as part of a trade with the Rockies  I will change my thinking 180.  Young is a mcuh more talented version of Morgan who steals bases almost at will.  I would be surprised if we could pry him from the Rockies for just Freddy.  If NH can pull that one off I will tip my cap to him.

Get Eric Young Jr back, and I'm all good with that deal.  I'd even throw Snell in just for the hell of it.

@Damik.....WAKE UP WAKE UP....you were having a nightmare!!

Why would they stop now?!

Of course Sanchez will be traded, and so will several others.

All Huntington needs is to get some small group of (supposed)minor league talent, and he'll ship that salary out quicker than you can say.....Prospect!!!

I'll repeat....This is the regime that does this franchise in for another decade.

The swindle goes on & on & on & on.....

I'm not really sure why some folks would be shocked by this trade.

Eric Young Jr. Stats

thebaseballcube.com/.../Eric-Young-1.shtml

If there is a trade with Colarado, I could not see the Pirates getting him in return.

If you hate the FO, it's a salary dump. If you think they're doing the right thing, it's yet another case of selling high.

They have almost no chance of getting anyone worthwhile for Wilson or LaRoche. Granted, as GM I would much rather be in the position of having other GMs coming to me uninvited instead of "pushing" them, but at this point Freddy may be the last "sell high" quantity on the squad outside of the pitchers (Duke and Maholm, mediocre; Snell, has baggage; Grabow and Capps, OK but not premier players). While "no one is untouchable" Cutch is for sure; also unlikely NH will trade off anyone he's acquired himself until they've had a couple years to make or break.

Many of us have lauded NH for selling high, unlike DL. Why is this any different?

I would seriously consider any offer of a 3B and move little Andy over to 2B. Young is a bench guy/stopgap (you don't get anything better than that for PTBNLs).

Just remember how hard they tried to push Wilson the past two years.  I am with Why Didn't I--lets see what happens then evaluate reality.  

Ian has done them a favor with his two outings at Indy.  I also wouldn't be surprised to see one of our starters go in a large multi-player deal.  No inside info, just a hunch.  We have some Pitchers at Indy who appear ready in Lincoln and Gorzo.  No room for them right now in rotation.  If they are going to get some good prospects for Freddy I think they will need to give up someone else.

@damikmikjeal - yeah, I'd say you're deep into your REM cycles there. The Bucs are 37-45, in last place in their division behind 5 other teams, against whom their combined record is an even more dismal 12-25. And you won't write them off yet? It would take a winning streak of monumental proportions at this point, with a lineup that has no pop and a pitching staff that is, to be kind, not good. Face it man, this season is a goner.

Which is not to say that I agree with them pushing Sanchez and Wilson out the door at this time. If it's not about the money prove it by extending these guys a few years to bridge the gap to better days. Because I really don't see them getting any sure thing in return. Just a bunch of second or third tier minor leaguers who may never amount to anything. And so it goes in Bucco-land.

We're not a contender with him so send him packing and see if the new kids we get in return can be something worth having. He's 31, he's not going to be here when the young kids are ready anyway.

I LOVE Freddie's game but it's not fair to him or the Pirates to keep him here, so I wish him the best and as long as we get a Top 5 guy in return it's more than worth it.

Hey Cisco!

Why don't you get a job in Huntington's office monitoring the phone for salary dumps....If you don't already have one there.

Are you kidding?....Or are you just totally nuts?

Keep the swindle going buddy!

Could you see a Mike Williams special happening?

Trade him and then sign back as a FA?

In Freddy's case that could be fall 2010.  In Jack's case that could be this fall.  But what would they be if they aren't together?

quote Why don't you guys see if it happens first end quote

Because this trade is different from the others. They are pushing while they were approached previously. They get far more when they're approached then when they start calling other teams begging them to take their players.

I liked both the Morgan and McLouth trades and think they got far more then they gave up.

Where can I get some Sanchez salsa before he's traded?

I sold Freddy a laptop when he first game to Pittsburgh. He was really nice as was his wife. I'll miss him, but this organization needs to keep moving forward.

Sorry.  Irrational post.

I've no problem with trading anyone who nets us a decent return.  Right now the McLouth trade is looking better 'Cause everyone at the time thought Salty was a throw in.  (If memory serves..)

Us trying hard to trade Freddie because of his option is stupid.  Us trying to trade Freddy because we can get good your players is smart.  I'm just not sure, if, in the baseball environment we're in today, Freddy will bring anything worth making the trade.

Remember, DK had some post where the Pirates brain trust thought the Bay deal was dead, and started to talk about resigning him, only to have it come back to life a few minutes later.  Let's hope that, if NH can't get what he wants, that Freddy is still a Bucco.

At this point, I don't care about the Pirates anymore, just the players who played hard no matter what type of mismanagement they played under.

Freddy Sanchez, thank you for giving us some of the best years of your baseball  career.  I will never forget the many thrills you gave us:  your batting championship year, the flashy double plays you and Jack Wilson turned, the opposite field doubles you laced into the gap, your enthusiasm for the game.

You were one of the few bright spots in this franchise in recent memory.  May you play on a team that wins the World Series so the baseball world can see what a fine baseball player you are.  

If (big if) we could pry young from colorado that would be a great trade.  The guy gets on base and makes things happen.  He could start immediately.  Would colorado make that trade is the question.  Throw another player in (snell) maybe (once again big maybe) they make the trade.  Imagine the speed (clutch, eric young, Milledge) omg it would be like a Merry-go-round.  Once again i am dreaming.

The minnesota trade mentioned would be a terrible trade.

WWWYP - I don't see where his stats are that great to rule him out. Freddy's BA is better, his OBP is a little lower, his SLG is better and his OPS is better. Young is speed and not much else.

Also, though I can't find much about his defense, the Rockies blogs all seem to agree that he isn't suited to play 2B and suggest he go to CF. And we don't need another one of those.

In short I could see their interest in his speed and OBP but his defense would be a liability. So I don't think I'd be pushing all that hard to get him. Who've the Giants got? We need a bat, not another Road Runner.

"WWWYP - I don't see where his stats are that great to rule him out. Freddy's BA is better, his OBP is a little lower, his SLG is better and his OPS is better. Young is speed and not much else.

Also, though I can't find much about his defense, the Rockies blogs all seem to agree that he isn't suited to play 2B and suggest he go to CF. And we don't need another one of those.

In short I could see their interest in his speed and OBP but his defense would be a liability. So I don't think I'd be pushing all that hard to get him. Who've the Giants got? We need a bat, not another Road Runner."

Sorry I didn't clarify, earlier in the week there was an article by rosenthal, I think, where he said that the Pirates really want eric young jr. I couldn't find the link so I didn't bring this up.  My statement was based on that.

Hey Bob Nutting, if one of your lacky's is monitoring this blog, I hope they get the message back to you that you are a crook and quite possibly the worst thing that has ever happened to a Pittsburgh sports team.  While you continue to make millions of dollars based on lies, a  generation of youth is being robbed of any legitimate baseball memories whatsoever.

While everybody is talking about trades and blaming NH, Coonely and Russel for ineptitude, you are laughing at the scenario while your wallet grows fatter than one of your stuffed pierogies at PNC Park.

You are a disgrace to this proud city.  I sure hope you can sleep at night doing business like this.  What a sham.  Please sell this team to somebody who cares just a little bit!

Hey daquido, you got the right idea. How about you strap on a couple bandoliers and your AK-47 and march right into Bob Nutting's office and order him to sell the team to you. Yeah, we know the team's not for sale, but hey, about $300-350 mil oughta do it. (Maybe he'll sell low to you because of, you know, the AK-47 thing.)

OK, now it's yours. Now what?

Wow, an unnamed NL executive says the Pirates are "pushing hard" to trade Sanchez and the collected anti-Pirates inmates are out in full force.  Maybe if this individual went on record with his name, I might feel as though there were some merit to the "push", but without that, it is just one anonymous guy's limited view on the situation.

Couple of things:

1.  This is not, I repeat, not a salary dump; they can afford to pay Sanchez this year and next.  They may choose not to, because they don't believe that they are getting a proper ROI for the money they are spending, but trading him because they don't think he's worth the money is not the same as trading him because they can't afford him.

2.  If they do trade him, let's wait and see what they get back before calling for the FO's heads.  Remember, this isn't Littlefield who gave away Aramis Ramirez for some shiny beads and trinkets.  This FO, whether the moves are popular or not, has received players, usually in multiples, with upside as everyday MLB players from their trades.

3.  Is the end result of this season really all that important?  Does it honestly matter if this team loses 85 or 95 or even 105 games this year?  This is not a contender, not for a division title, wild card berth or even .500.  If they get good value in return, they are better off than making a multi-year offer to a 30+ year-old 2B with limited range in the field and limited power and speed at the plate simply because there's no one immediately behind him in the minors.  

Nice post Cisco....Now I really know where your heads at.

"Capps to the Marlins? Can anybody say REID BRIGNAC? we do not need ANOTHER light hitting outfielder."

I am pretty certain that brignac is in the rays system.

It is going to get NASTY in here today with no game and now THIS!

I am going to go and hide under the bed.

What is that quote? "Hell hath no fury like a fan who thinks it is a SALARY DUMP"

Holey Moses parting the seas. If they're shopping him, they better have someon really good to replace him in mind because Shelby Ford needs some more time.

So if you're going to mastermind a three way and get a Troy Tulowitzki and an Albert Pujols and an Evan Longoria and move Andy to second, and send both Freddy and Adam away, fine. Laugh at me, go ahead, but if we get a couple of A ball kids five years from the bigs, I'm gonna be chapped.

Thank you Freddy, and after Jack blows up when his friend is traded and demands a trade, thank you Jack.

Yes, Eric Young, a 2b who MAY do something and who someone says above is Nyjer Morgan at second, for a 2 time all star batting champ. Sounds like a Pirate trade to me. Because, based on the minor lrague records, the Pirates are definitely talented!

But IMO, they don't have a good everyday replacement for Freddy.  I don't think RV gets the job done everyday, and unless something else is in the works, they don't have anyone else in the system either.  Scared now.

I'm going to go hide under my bed too, I think, for the time being.

How dare anyone question the motives of this FO? Freddy will not be part of our team when we turn the corner in 2020. We don't care about .500. We're trying to build a championship team for many years. This has nothing to do with his salary. Besides, we need more PROSPECTS.

     FRANK AND NEAL WILL STEAL!

   IT'S A CULTURE OF WINNING!

Better watch out Demery.

Cisco Kid will accuse you of being a mass murderer if you question this regime.

Don't say a word!....Sit here silent!

Cisco Kid has spoken Pyongyang style.

Shhhh....

Sorry WWWWP wrong Fl team' thanks for the wake up slap on the wrist

"Because this trade is different from the others. They are pushing while they were approached previously. They get far more when they're approached then when they start calling other teams begging them to take their players."

-That still doesn't mean that they HAVE to do something.  If the return isn't right, they won't do it.  See what happened with Grabow at the deadline last year as example.

" While you continue to make millions of dollars based on lies, a  generation of youth is being robbed of any legitimate baseball memories whatsoever."

-I didn't know Bob Nutting's personal accountant posted on here.  Also, do you even know Bob Nutting (Neal or Frank for that matter)?  If you do, I apologize, but to say he doesn't care, he just wants to make money, etc. etc. is complete speculation.  He did just pony up for a new academy in the Dominican.  How about spending on last year's draft?  None of these things get mentioned.  So I ask you, Good_For_Nutting, when's the last time you had a conversation with Bob Nutting about his personal finances and his feelings about the team?

Something I never hear discussed with regard to Freddie Sanchez and his $8+ MM contract next year: Trade or no trade, who plays 2B in 2011 when he's a free agent? Shelb Ford seems like he could be more than one year away, assuming he pans out at all as a major leaguer.

Why can't we just keep Freddy since he's doing so well and then when Shelby Ford is ready, we can pasture Freddy. Why do all the working parts have to be removed from the vehicle?

Question I wanted to ask:

Any chance that since the Pirates are fielding a AAA team, that they would reduce ticket prices to AAA level?

New tag quote for the PBC:

"The Pittsburgh Pirates, the best AAA team in the National League"

Sure. For the first time in weeks I'm not hiding under the bed from PoH and now suddenly the rest of you are wanting to jump under there. I must have left the front door unlocked. :-)

G-Man, are you questioning that a prospect will make it to the big Leagues???? I mean, the whole PBC concept is that soon Bryan Morris ( one of the centerpieces of the Bay trade) will be starting soon. As will Moskos!

indiana--------Better check your political map.

Bishop,

I'm with you except for one point. Sanchez has decent power (using SLG% and OPS) and he's one of the better defenders in the NL at his position. Not the best, but his range is good. Still, I agree I'd rather they trade him if they get good value in return.

And why would the Pirates have a player in the all-star game if they trade Freddie? The Scranton Yankes, Lehigh Valley Iron PIgs among others don't!

It's really pathetic the way this organization operates.

But good for Freddy if he gets out of Pittsburgh. Having to play for this team must be like a really awful nightmare for anyone who is above average.

Now for other members of the team, this is probably close to paradise for them because they're not actually good enough for the real major league teams, but the Pirates only care about fielding a team suited for AAA.

Quite possibly the Pirates will never again have another winning season because I assume the only thing the Pirates are really concerned about getting in return for Freddy is a couple of players who are cheaper, but not necessarily talented.

That's what he gets for getting selected to the All-Star Team.  Pirates front office don't want to keep stars.  The Pirates are laughable at best.

I've been rather neutral on NH's trades so far since it will really take years to evaluate them and for the most part they've had someone to step up and fill in.  We've also been lead to believe that the other trades were made because the Pirates received an offer they couldn't refuse.

However if they are shopping Sanchez around then this is completely different from any of the other trades since they have no one to take his place (Young is not a second baseman) and they're trading him because they want to, not because another team is willing to offer the earth and the sky to get him.

So what does this mean? ITS A SALARY DUMP!!! There really is no other possibility.  And if this one is a salary dump, then we the fans need to realize the very good possibility that all of the other trades were salary dumps as well, and we've just been fed a line of bull about all of these so called "wonderful offers" they've taken advantage of in the past.

With the Pirates payroll being as low as it is they should be able to pick up both Jack's and Freddy's options without a problem.

I follow the team pretty closely, but if they trade all of the players that are expected to be traded (Jack, Freddy, Adam, Grabow) then I'd be at a loss to guess who the highest paid Pirate would be.  Snell?

And for that matter without these players what would the payroll be for next year?  20 or 30 million?  That's pathetic when you compare that to the salaries of other teams.

Sure, they'll tell us the salary is so low because they're building for the future.  And in 5 years when they're still building for the future Nutting will fire the current front office, then bring in some new guys and tell us it will be different this time because they have a plan!!!

Why Didn't I get to see Roberto?...the proof is in the action.  My speculation is based on lies made to the public  "We will increase payroll when the product on the field improves"...What?!?!?!?, and is quite a bit more based in reality than someone's who would speculate that Nutting actually does care about winning.

How on earth could someone who is sane find a consistent stream of actions made by Nutting that demonstrates a desire to win?  I'm not impressed by tax deductible building in the Dominican.  I'm also not impressed by hiring and firing front office staff.  Pump 25 million more into PAYROLL, then you may be able to hold an argument about his motives being based on something other than greed.

Plus Why didn't I,..

in addition to ponying up for the Dominican academy ( though we have yet to see a Dominican signed), The PBC has said they will be among the top 5 spenders in the draft this year!

PoH -

>>Why can't we just keep Freddy since he's doing so well and then when Shelby Ford is ready, we can pasture Freddy. Why do all the working parts have to be removed from the vehicle?<<

I would be fine with that. But that does not seem to be the MO of this FO. They are going to want to get something in return for Freddy rather than just let him fade to black. I figure they expect his trade value next July to be more limited since he'd be a FA whereas this year he has one more year via the extension.

Back to my earlier post: is Shelby likely to be ready for MLB in 2011? You have seen him in ST; I have not. He seems to be coming on very slowly this year.

I have to disagree with Bishop's comment about it being not important to win games.  The Pirates should have several annual goals, one of which is to make the playoffs and win the series.  That's not a realistic goal each and every year as sports history amply proves.  However, a goal that is reasonably achievable every year is to field an entertaining, competitive baseball club.  People aren't motivated to go to games solely by the hope that the team will one day be great.  They go primarily to be entertained.  If the last 10 or so games are the type of entertainment that the Pirates think is acceptable as part of a plan, even one seemingly more organized that in the recent past, then I think they need a new plan.  The return on investment of paying Sanchez or even Wilson for the next 3-4 years serves the goal of fielding an entertaining, competitive team. They shouldn't sell out that goal completely for the other.  There needs to be a balance.  If striking the balance means that having the playoff team takes another year or so but I avoid having to suffer through brutal baseball, then I think that's a fair balance.

Maybe this tag line:

"The Pittsburgh Prates, where AAA players can pick up MLB service time"

Al martin....

"Sure, they'll tell us the salary is so low because they're building for the future.  And in 5 years when they're still building for the future Nutting will fire the current front office, then bring in some new guys and tell us it will be different this time because they have a plan!!!"

I couldn't have said it better myself.  Jackpot.  

Let's keep in mind that when Sanchez was obtained from Boston, it was a trade for....PROSPECTS!

But this regime has a NEW plan.

The swindle goes on & on & on & on....

@ Gregenstein

I should have been more specific on the power piece.  Freddy does have decent gap power to generate doubles, but I was really referring to a lack of HR power.

Freddy is fine for the balls that he gets to, but he can't get to as many as others, hence my use of "range" rather than "fielding".

Memo to all present and future Pirate players:

In the best interest of all parties it is not wise to sign a LARGE CONTRACT, unless of course you want to play somewhere else, then by all means sing as large a contract as possible.

The larger the contract THE FASTER YOU WILL BE MOVED TO  A CONTENDER

Maybe a tag line from Shakespeare:

"Tomorrow  and tomorrow and tomorrow"

Good_for_Nutting.......Excellent work today.....Tremendous.

I there is a still a Pirates marketing department, please feel free to use any of my above taglines. The whole yes we can stuff doesn't really fit.

When a story like this leaks into the press does that increase or decrease Freddy's value and management's ability to trade him?  Could the guy who called DK have an ulterior motive, not just letting people know what's going on, but positioning his club to drive a harder bargain?  

Doc -

>>G-Man, are you questioning that a prospect will make it to the big Leagues????<<

Don't bite down too hard on your tongue while it's still in your cheek. ;-)  And, yes, I am daring to question such a thing. I am a Pirates fan but not best friends with Bob Nutting nor the FO boys. I am hopeful for better things ahead. But I'm aware of what's happening on the field these days.

I don't know if Ford will make it or not. But if he does yet is not ready in 2011, what are the options? Vazquez's contract will be up then. Can't see Pirates spending $2 MM on him again.

daquido, actually that was a quote from Al Martin's post, but I agree it was great!

UUUHHHHHHHHHH  TRYING TO STAY POSITIVE....NOT WORKING THERE IS A REDD SLASH IN FRONT OF MY EYES....HELP ME PLEASE SOMEBODY HEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLPPPPPPPPPPP

NNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 I am not opposed to trading to restock the system and I believe that you have to be creative to survive in todays baseball economics. However after carefully considering what this regime has done to date with very marketable trading chips it is really clear that they are not shrewd talent evaluators. Jason Bay for a collection of nothings (MOSS, Hansen, and Morris have bombed) and LaRoche somehow is the golden boy even though he hits .270 this year after .170 last year with ZERO power, no speed , limited range, and average defense. Salomon Torres (at the time traded an effective middle reliever who ate innings) for 2 guys out of baseball a year later. We traded a young starter with potential for Tyler (gas can ) Yates  and hte McCluth trade is too early to tell. Remember Nady and Marte were healthy and at top value when we traded them and what we received is interesting but if that trade is your Gold standard, you suck!    

Gman... my tongue has been so far in my cheek I look like Don Corleone.

This is not a plan without a ridiculous amount of risk, and dependence on what I feel is the teams hamartia, player evaluation

Hey, if we don't get Young Jr, maybe we could teach Garret Jones to play second. He seems fast!

Seriously, if ever there was a time where the blog needed NuHo to move it , this is it!

Maybe he is waiting for the trade

good for nutting, what does "tax deductible" have to do with anything? ALL business expenses, including payroll, are tax deductible. A business is taxed on net profit, not gross receipts. If tax deductibility was important, they'd spend enough to insure a loss every year. We know the team is profitable, ergo they are paying taxes.

I have an idea....

Let's bring up Brian Bixler, that would be such an upgrade.

The new plan doesn't make much sense. You have to have some nucleus of a team at all times, which they don't right now.  

The 'farm is decimated and has no talent' will still will be the case now that it's well known that Freddy is being pressed hard to be traded, which also devalues him.

I no longer care about the Pirates until the Nutting's have sold the team to someone that has a financial plan or can fuel the system through signings and development.

The other low salaried 'small market' teams do not dump everyone for next to nothing.  The Royals, Twins, Indians, Athletics, Brewers, and Rays have signed and do have quality veterans on their respective teams.

There is not logic or an upside to this PLAN

Winning 81 or 79 this year, in itself, is probably not significant.  MY CONCERN is the negative impact inferior defense will have on the development of a young pitching staff (that's been much better than most of us expected this year). Will the pitchers be better able to compete in 2011+ when (at least we hope) some of the promising offense is up from AA?

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I just burned my Pirate hat

No, Bixler will be the new CFer after they trade McCutchen. haven't you been reading about his move to the OF

We are following the Cleveland model, remember..... Look how good they are!!!

Doc, here is another possible tagline for the Bucs...

"7th place in a 6 team division"

Cisco, you said buddy....

"gross receipts"

my point exactly.  thanks for clarifying.

@ almartin

If I could get 25 All-Stars (A-Rod, Jeter, Pujols, Santana, etc.) to sign as FA and play for $1M each for the Pirates, their payroll would be $25 million.  Is that pathetic or good business?  What if I paid every member of this year's Pirates' roster $10M each, making the payroll $250 million?  Is that more to your liking?  

The size of a team's payroll is immaterial as long as the players on the field are talented.  The Rays made the WS last year with a miniscule payroll, the Twins are usually contenders with a cheapskate owner and there was this book called "Moneyball" about how Billy Beane was able to find talent in less-than-usualy places and field a playoff team for years at a low salary level.  

This organization simply does not have enough talent in it to compete for anything.  Posters here are always claiming that spending more money is the answer, but I ask: how much more money is needed to make this team good?  Average SP in this league (Gil Meche, Jeff Suppan) go for $12m a season, but are either of them really all that much better than Ohlendorf or Morton or Duke?  You want an impact bat?  Prepare to shell out at least $13M per year on a 4 or 5 year deal and pray that that player doesn't turn out to be Andruw Jones.

Everyone wants ownership to spend more money, but what if the money isn't there?  You can argue that Nutting is making a profit, but without him opening the books, there is no way of knowing how much profit that is.  What if the profit is $12M a year?  That's a #4 starter, based on the contracts I quoted above.  You want him to spend more?  Where is that money going to come from?  Is it fair for you to expect him to operate this team at a loss just so you're entertained?  That isn't smart business, and like it or not, this is a business he's in.  Tom Hicks, who's a billionaire, is looking to sell the Rangers because they lose him money year in and year out, and the Steinbrenners would sell the Yankees in a heartbeat if they had to incur losses every year.

@ Plenty

Quote: So if you're going to mastermind a three way and get a Troy Tulowitzki and an Albert Pujols and an Evan Longoria and move Andy to second, and send both Freddy and Adam away, fine. Laugh at me, go ahead, but if we get a couple of A ball kids five years from the bigs, I'm gonna be chapped.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Hope you have a supply of soothing cream, because you are talking about our beloved Pirates...We are most definitely chapped!

Ok, apparently people in here need a baseball lesson:

There are many ways to keep a championship org. GOING (drafting, Int'l signings, be a buyer at the deadline), but only 1 way to BUILD a championship org.

THE ONLY WAY TO BUILD A CHAMPIONSHIP TEAM IS THROUGH THE DRAFT, INT'L SIGNINGS, AND TRADES FOR PROSPECTS!

You've seen what happens when you have an OK core of players and then veterans (who are well past their primes see Jeremy Burnitz, Derek Bell, Matt Morris) are acquired.  You LOSE A LOT OF GAMES.

Since our minor leagues were so void of talent, NH and FC have to get as much in as possible (QUALITY & QUANTITY).  That way, there's a better chance that something comes out of it.  Baseball is the BIGGEST CRAPSHOOT when it comes to finding good players?  It's not like the NBA, NFL, or NHL.  Every player is hit or miss, even players that look like they are sure hits.  Steven Strasburg could never pitch an inning at the big league level, and they guy who got drafted 757th overall could win 20 games for 10 years.

Here's a perfect example:  The Phillies had been falling just short of the playoffs and they wanted to make a deal for a pitcher for their playoff push.  Ryan Howard was offered for Kip Wells (or Benson?  Not totally sure but it was one or the other...someone want to clarify) and Dave Littlefield chose not to do it.  Hmmmm.  Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.  HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.  Betya Dave wishes he could go back and make that trade.  I bet the Phils are extremely happy that that never happened.

The current core of players we have now aren't GOOD ENOUGH.  Bob Walk said it himself.  Since there are many factors why big market FAs won't come to Pittsburgh, we have to grow our own core THROUGH THE DRAFT, INT'L SIGNINGS, AND TRADES FOR PROSPECTS.

People, there is finally something to get excited about coming through our minor league system, and everyone is still angry that AVERAGE VETERANS (I'm sorry but Freddy, Jack, Xavier, Jason Bay (maybe maybe maybe, a big MAYBE), Nate McLouth, etc. ARE NOT HALL OF FAMERS) are being traded for HUGE UPSIDE PROSPECTS?!?!?!?!?!?!?

I was as mad as probably all of you when Nate was traded (b/c he was my favorite player), but when I objectively looked at the return, was pretty satisfied at what we got.

If Freddy is your favorite player, I can understand your sentiment, but to all those that are just hating on Neal & Frank (okay....and Bob) b/c they think they are trading the present away for a future that will never come.................how was that present going before Neal & Frank took over?  How about now?

Any idea what's going on with the chat?

I hope this happens.  Freddy's genuine enthusiasm for the game of baseball was getting on my nerves.  

I predict a Jack Wilson apology statement somewhere in the midst of this debacle.

@ Doc

Quote: "Hey, if we don't get Young Jr, maybe we could teach Garret Jones to play second. He seems fast!"

------------------------------

I am sort of hoping that the Pirates use Jones at 1B, when they dump Adam. Everything I have heard of him, was that he is a natural first baseman. If this is correct, he would seem to be the best option for the position seeing that Pearce has been sent away to Indy to relearn how to hit.

Y'all do realize that the vast majority of rumored trades never happen, right?  Like the trade or hate it, the extreme emotional reaction is premature.  Unless, of course, you've got some axe to grind for or against the FO-- which is I think where   most of these comments are coming from.  So grind away, I guess; but be forewarned that if this trade never happens, both sides of the aisle are gonna look pretty foolish.

Bishop, you bring up some valid points, but to expect that an owner should actually care about winning is not unreasonable in any sense.  By virtue of being part of any sporting activity, the underlying theme is that of competition and the desire to be the best.  That mentality is what is necessary to be a champiom, from the playing field all the way up to the owner.  

We have two other ownership groups in town that have their motives in the same pocket as their wallets. With  Nutting, it is not so.  You are right that spending more money is not a fix-all.  You are correct.  It is, however, a means  to put your organization on at least an even playing field with the competition rather than holding it back.

Steve

Y'all do realize that the vast majority of rumored trades never happen, right?  Like the trade or hate it, the extreme emotional reaction is premature.  Unless, of course, you've got some axe to grind for or against the FO-- which is I think where   most of these comments are coming from.  So grind away, I guess; but be forewarned that if this trade never happens, both sides of the aisle are gonna look pretty foolish.

____________________________________

So true

Chat is up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

look - I'm not in love with Nutting, but he didn't officially take over charimanship of this team until just over 2 years ago. Remember that McClatchy...a non baseball guy with his hands in baseball decisions...was running the franchise. Nutting has publically stated that the money will be spent to field and maintain a competitive, winning team when that time comes. He inherited a team with probably the worst minor league system in the league, no pitching and a handful of players with value. The ONLY way for a team in this market to win is to build and spend from within. I repeat that IT IS THE ONLY WAY!

Nutting hired a front office team to make baseball decisions and he stays out of them. He approved Freddy's contract in the first place back in 2007 when he took over. Nutting, himself, has done NOTHING at all to prove that he is a money hungry robber-barron since OFFICIALLY taking over ownership of this team. He made statements about spending and he must be held accountable for them, and to date he has proven that he will spend on international scouting and development and the US draft. There has been absolutely no reason to throw additional money at the current roster because winning is so far away.

Nutting gets a stay of execution with me until we are winning with guys like Cutch, Alvarez, Lincoln, Tabata, hernandez, Milledge and they all producing and have contracts coming up. If he doesn't pay, he deserves all of the hatred and venom that he currently gets...until then, I will give him a pass.

As for Freddy being traded, I agree that we should wait for the return....but man this team will be brutal to watch the rest of the year.

A couple of Sundays ago, I went to the Royals-Pirates game, I bought a bottled Diet Pepsi during the rain delay. The ice in the cart was gone and the drink was submerged in water and was lukewarm itself. Clearly, the ice cubes had been traded away by Neal Huntington for that lukewarm water that will probably never be good enough to be turned into ice cubes and keep drinks cold in a major league ballpark.

@Why Didn't I get to see Roberto?...I agree with a lot of your novel above.  What I don't want to see is Nutting's name getting lumped in with NH and Coonely.  Huntington and Coonely are just doing what they can to try and win.  They are doing so, however, with one hand tied behind their back.

The moves they have made are risky, for certain.  But if any of us were in their shoes, what could we do differently?  If they don't take a hard swing with their decisions, they will be the next victims of the Nutting spin in a year or two.

I will concede that there is an outside chance that their approach may actually work....way outside.

@ all negatrons

If you owned this team, would you not be inclined to "dump salary" at this point in the season? Why would you continue to pay a premium for a non-premium product? While I don't believe that some of the previous trades had anything to do with salary, I can't say that I could blame the FO for wanting to reduce payroll.

Please point out for the rest of us "who" exactly the Pirates should have been throwing money at this past off-season to push us over the hump? CC Sabathia? AJ Burnett? Time and time again it is proven that the best way to build a team with market constraints like the Pirates is from within. It would have been nice to have kept Bay, McClouth, Morgan, etc. Realistic (ie non-Littlefieldian) management required the trades. Remember, it wasn't as if the core of the '90 team was being broken up.

The Pirates currently charge the least to see a major league game. If you think the Bucs are overcharging, then I would assume that you haven't been to a game in quite awhile, and are therefore unqualified to make such a statement.

Seriously, for anyone who still believes in Nutting's smoke and mirrors consider this:

1.  His latest spin is what is known as "circular logic".  It's exemplified by saying "we'll put money into the payroll when the product on the field merits it".  That is impossible because the only way to get a good product is to spend money on it to improve the output.  It's why the big $$$ teams spend big $$$.  Not because they like throwing money away, but because talent costs money.

2.  If the Pirates are so unprofitable that they can't afford salary - even though they won't confirm their weak balance sheet by opening their books - then please feel free to sell this unprofitable venture.  By the way, wasn't it Forbes that ranked the Pirates among the top 5 most profitable franchises in MLB?

3.  The product on the field last year was indeed competitive.  The line-up was among the top 3 in the NL and only required a minimal investment in pitching to be competitive.  Imagine if the Pirates had spent the $40M required to bring our payroll up to Milwaukee's on pitching alone.  Do you think that team would have been competitive this year?

indomatt - Very true on the cost of Pirate games.  It's cheaper than going to a movie if you buy the right seats or pick the right ticket promotion.  A lot cheaper.  Maybe not as exciting at the moment, but definitely less expensive.

@CometLittlefied...

you are still in outer space if you think Nutting hasn't been pullng the strings for closer to 10 years than 2, my friend.  He has been directly involved for many years prior to McClatchey leaving.

Don't be fooled by the smoke and mirrors.

@ Good_for_Nutting

I agree that any owner of a professional sports franchise should be doing his best to put a winning product on the field, and IMHO, I believe that at this time, that is what Bob Nutting is doing.  He is not doing it by spending lots of money on MLB payroll, but he is allowing the FO that he personally put in place to make moves to bolster the overall talent level within the organization, thus making future success, at a lower salary scale, possible and sustainable.

As for comparing Nutting with the other two owners in town, I will argue that the circumstances with each are completely different and thus make your argument irrelevant.  Both the Steelers and Penguins operate in leagues that have salary caps, thus limiting the amount of money that certain teams with distinct economic advantages due to market size can spend; the NHL went so far as to cancel an entire season in order to gain that type of cost control measure.  As for the NFL, their multi-billion dollar national television deals are equally divided among the 32 teams, ensuring that each team is well-funded beyond its own market limitations; MLB teams receive a far-smaller yearly amount of money from their national TV deals and all teams have their own local deals, which benefits teams like the Yankees and Red Sox and Dodgers because they exist in larger markets or because they own their own network and thus generate more revenue through controlling the advertising piece as well.

@Al48197

very good points.  solid work

a trade is extremely close.

Pirates are removing stuff around the office mentioning Sanchez...

can't get any more blatant.

and the salary dump announcement in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...

Roberto....(and if we went with this current FO's thinking...none of us would have seen Roberto).

Spare me the lecture.

I know what they are "supposedly" doing.

I've seen this movie before, and I don't like it.

You will never win by total subtraction, as there comes a time when you have to add.

The Pirate ownership will never do that.

Adding people like Burnitz, etc. was not adding real pieces.

I could write all day about this, but I know what these scheisters are "supposedly" doing....and I know what they're "really" doing.

Let's be clear about all of it.

There's nothing new being done here.

It's just the language that's being used.

The swindle goes on..and on...and on....and on....

With baseball not having a salary cap, teams like the Pittsburgh Pirates HAVE to be aggressive in their managing of players.  If they feel they will be getting better by trading Sanchez for whomever they recieve, then it needs to be done.  There can be no emotional attachment to any player, you should know that by now.  With the McLouth trade, McCutchen is better than he is (limited sample) and was READY for the majors.  With the Morgan deal, he was a 29 year old in his first real season in the major leagues and what was he doing that was so special?  His stolen base totals weren't worth his caught stealing totals and he was starting to come back down to earth in the OPS column too.  Plus, we got Lastings Milledge in that trade and same with Andy LaRoche, they weren't top prospects and being sought after so much for no reason at all.  If Ad. LaRoche gets traded, there's Garrett Jones (who I love thus far) and hopefully someday Steven Pearce.  I wouldn't understand the Freddy Sanchez deal only because there is NOBODY to play there in the future at this juncture, same goes with Jack Wilson.  Do we really want to see Brian Bixler again??? Delwyn Young, Ramon Vazquez, and apparently Robinzon Diaz can be FILL-INS at best.   We'll see, IMO they are doing things properly and so far I have no complaints.

Indormatt,

Thissue is not this past season. IF i owned this team, I would have signed Jason Bay, Jack Wilson and Freddy to extensions. I would have traded Nady, put Nate in Left, Jason in Right and given up some outfield arms. I would have hired Kerrigan, and when the Yanks were having trouble with ARod, asked what they would want for him ( even Cutch).

That implies I was an owner who cared more about winning than profit, and an owner who had deep pockets. I know the Pirates don't have the latter, about the former, who knows.

@ Bishop

You are absolutely right, this is not all about payroll.  I don't want the Pirates to have a high payroll, I want them to win.  I want them to compete for the playoffs every year and ultimately I want them to win a World Series.  

As you point out you don't need to have the highest payroll to win.  However in order to remain competitive for more than a season here and there you need to at least have a payroll that is competitive with the other MLB teams.  You mention the A's, Rays and Twins as examples of teams that win with low payrolls.  But how many World Series trophies have those team won since payrolls started to climb in the early 90s?  The Marlins did it twice, but then they immediately blew the teams up.

And yes, I agree the talent isn't there that spending even 20 million extra dollars is going to make this team competitive.  But I look at the trades that have been made the last 2 years and I ask "Have we picked up the talent that's going to make us competitive?"  My answer is no.  Other than McCutchen and Alvarez do you see any other players from AA on up that have the potential to be stars?  I sure don't.

If Freddy and jack get traded this team is going to be pathetic for this season and next.  And so far I haven't seen anything that makes me think it's going to get better beyond that.  

And if Nutting doesn't have the money to field a competitive team, then HE SHOULD SELL IT.  

BTW, Nutting was Chairman when they told Littlefield he had to dump salary and they traded Aramis Ramirez for a bag of magic beans

" I am not opposed to trading to restock the system and I believe that you have to be creative to survive in todays baseball economics. However after carefully considering what this regime has done to date with very marketable trading chips it is really clear that they are not shrewd talent evaluators."

-Clearly you are opposed due to the rest of your post that I'm going to go at.

"Jason Bay for a collection of nothings (MOSS, Hansen, and Morris have bombed) and LaRoche somehow is the golden boy even though he hits .270 this year after .170 last year with ZERO power, no speed , limited range, and average defense."

-Are you kidding?  Moss is 25 in his 1st FULL season in the bigs where he has to platoon with E. Hinske (now on NY), Craig Monroe (now released), Delwynn Young (good bat, but ZERO D), and now Garrett Jones (interesting player).  Hansen threw well in ST and at the beginning of this season, but has been injured, and Bryan Morris is 22 in AA!  If GMs and baseball people took your way of evaluation, Barry Bonds never would've seen the light of day!

"Salomon Torres (at the time traded an effective middle reliever who ate innings) for 2 guys out of baseball a year later."

-Wow. Upset at the Solomon Torres trade. Wow.  Hows or should I say how'd he do for the Brewers?  I didn't know he was the next Eckersly or Fingers?  As far as I'm concerned, be upset that they didn't some fungoes or balls for Torres, but what did you expect, a few blue chips in return?? Get real.

"We traded a young starter with potential for Tyler (gas can ) Yates  and hte McCluth trade is too early to tell."

-I'll give you Yates.  Why would anyone trade for Tyler Yates?  Although, I believe we needed a power arm at the time.  And basically all the trades that Neal & Frank have made so far are too early to tell.

"Remember Nady and Marte were healthy and at top value when we traded them and what we received is interesting but if that trade is your Gold standard, you suck!"

-Well let's see, 2/5 of the starting rotation to start the year that basically was leading the MLB in ERA and QS through most of April (hey when you're last in pitching in '08 who cares right?), and still is up there in QS and is around league average in ERA, but no upgrade at all from last season.  Tabata is 20 (maybe 21 now) and could be another Manny Ramierez, and we have yet to see what Dan McCutchen has at the MLB level sooo.........

Please, try and be a little more objective?

@ Al48197 - who could we have bought in FA that would have made us a contender? We were 8 games under .500 with Bay and Nady and would have headed toward 15-20 games under by year's end. Who puts us over the top and changes our fortune by 40 games? Name them? Sabathia? Burnett? Texeria? Assuming we outbid the Yankees, red sox et al and these guys want to come here? THEN we win 30 more games? You are dreaming....completely dreaming. Be realistic.

@ AI48197

Please see my earlier post.  While spending money on the MLB product is a way to get good results, it is not the only way; the Twins, A's and Rays have all proven otherwise within the last decade.

As for selling the team, he has to have a buyer, and in this economy, I doubt those are in high supply.  Also, he has never claimed that owning the team was unprofitable; in fact, the team has made a profit for each of the past few years, as any good business should.

If $40M is a "minimal investment" in your opinion, can I borrow some cash from you, because you obviously are an extremely wealthy individual?  Again, see my earlier post on approximately what $40M can buy you, which is a couple of #4 starters, neither of whom  are not performing much better than Ross Ohlendorf and Zach Duke, each of whom make far less.  This team was not a contender, regardless of its lineup, last year and certainly would not have been this year, with or without last summer's trades.

@Bishop...

I'm not comparing the leagues.  I am quite familiar with their differences, thank you.  I am comparing the owners.  If you think the fact that Mario Lemieux sacrificed millions of his own dollars to see the Pens succeed is irrellevent, that sheds an incredible amount of ignorance on your whole argument.

It is clear that you are a Nutting apologist...and that is your right.  The fact that MLB doesn't have a salary cap is allowing guys like Nutting to fly under the radar because of ridiculous spenders like the NYY and Sox.  Need I remind you that MLB has no salary floor, either, which is also allowing him succeed with his plot.  Hey, I'm not saying the guy is a dumby.  I just happen to agree with folks who think his actions are next to criminal.

@ Good_for_Nutting...prove that to me. Prove to me that he's been a puppet master for the last 13 years. Show me proof.

Carthago delenda est

@Doc...

"BTW, Nutting was Chairman when they told Littlefield he had to dump salary and they traded Aramis Ramirez for a bag of magic beans"

You got it right, man.

Why Didn't I get to see Roberto?------Amongst the many mistakes in latest lecture, Morris is not in Double A....He's in Single A and he has gotten bombed as recently as last night!

Hansen has disappeared with a mystery injury for months.

Study up....This FO stinks.

And the swindle goes on...and on...and on...and on....

daquido_bazzini,

If Neal & Frank's trades work (which it's going to be 1-2, but more realistically like 2-3 or 4 years before it's fair to evaluate) I want you back on here, apologizing to Neal and Frank.

If they are fired in 5 years b/c the team is still poor, then I will apologize to you.

Finally some young talent to be excited about and all people care about is veterans who haven't won anything being traded away.  Please, all of you, go root for another team, including you daquido.   I think Red Sox Nation needs some more supporters.

Hi, EricB!  *waves*

why can't you be at work so we can talk about this easier?!

I get the feeling Dejan and Jenifer Langosch are NOT  getting the same info on Rudy Owens.-              -------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

Langosch-But the Pirates do not have plans to promote him to high Class A Lynchburg anytime soon and probably not at all this season. The development team is looking at factors well beyond results, indicated by the response I got from director of player development Kyle Stark when I recently posed the same question.This is his first full season under the lights, so he is approaching unchartered territory in terms of competing during a season," Stark said. "Also, he is approaching innings workloads that he has never reached. Tackling both of those at a higher level may or may not be the best thing for Rudy. We feel like he can continue to develop where he is at right now, including FB angle, breaking ball development, and use of stuff."That was from Kyle Stark      -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------      -From Dejan-The Pirates do expect to move up Rudy Owens at some point this season.

Read more: www.post-gazette.com/.../982844-63.stm

BTW - That "starter with potential" traded for Yates (Todd Redmond) is currently 4-6 with a 5.30 ERA for the Gwinnett Braves.  He's basically been their 4th starter behind Hanson, Morton, and Tony Armas Jr. until Hanson got called up and Morton traded.  At the moment he's not looking like to great of a pick up for the Braves either.

Sorry guys, but at some point you have to keep your productive parts in order to really keep improvement going.  Trading Freddy and Jack only resets the improvement process.  It is much smarter to run your baseball team based on improving rather than just rebuilding.

I just don't see how destroying a productive middle infield that doesn't show very many signs of slowing down to get parts that may or may not work in in a season or two is improving.

If Nutting was the puppet master making all of the baseball and money decisions that sunk this franchise and caused losiing season after losing season, all the while lining his pockets with all of our hard-earned cash to he can roll around in his money-bin like Scrooge McDuck....WHY DID HE OUST MCCLATCHY AND TAKE ON A VERY PUBLIC OWNERSHIP OF THIS TEAM?!?!?!

He could've sat in the shadows and collected all of his money and let McClatchly look like the hapless, mark...like Kevin Pollack in Casino.

Answer me that? Maybe...just maybe...Nutting was getting sick of the embarrassment and the losing. He doesn't strike me as a guy who likes to be publicly embarrassed and have his neck on the line.

You are all a bunch of conspiracy theorists with this guy...

@CometLittlefield..

13 years is your number.  It is my belief that he has been behind the big desk for the better part of a decade.  If you need more proof than a revolving door of lies and deceipt, then I suggest somebody needs to check your oxygen supply up there.

I'm not happy about this idea. But I'm not going to overreact like many others.

Doc

I think the AAA pricing argument is getting pretty tired. Pirates tickets are obscenely cheap. You can get in the door for $9! There are bleacher reserve seats for $16. You can sit behind the dugout for $35.  Those same tickets are 50 or 53 at the Metrodome, a similar market with a lousy building.  Tickets to a Pirates game are extremely reasonably priced.

JAL.... they had a piece on Hannibel on the History Channel today. Well said Cato!

Good_for_Nutting - again, all conjecture. You have no clue. And answer my question about McClatchy's ouster...

daquido - Hansen's "mystery injury" is a nerve issue in his right shoulder/neck.  There has been no real notice of what it going to be needed to fix it, aside from time.  My question qould be, how long has it been an issue, and will fixing it(whatever that takes) help his control?

Hell if I was Sanchez I would be pushing for a trade! Hello San Francisco Giants! Will be like when the Giants traded us Madlock in 1979. WE ARE FAMILY! Changed the season!

Our owner and front office is a bunch of crooks. I am not going to support these trades. I am not going to support we are rebuilding give them time. I am not going to support this sham. Its fake and poor salesmenship on the Management process. Don't tell me we are improving this team. As each player comes into earning a better salary, as each player comes into to finally producing, WE TRADE THEM and for nothing!

Oh nobody is attending the games management cries. WONDER WHY. I cannot believe this is not a 100% across the board pirates fan up in arms raging riot. I AM STUNNED at how many since the summer when I really started bitching about our lack of leadership and free agent transactions have been on the opposite side of the fence.

Ya, thats a great idea. Trade a .300 hitter from a team trying to score any runs, and with the possibility of our starting catcher coming back.

Congrats to IAN SNELL, you are making yourself tradeable. I hold you 75% to blame for how poorly you did with the pirates, but that 25% failure to harness another talent lies with our Pirates management procedures. The list just goes one.  Nice job Pirates Front Office, finally others are seeing what I have seen since the day you started on the job. You guys are just earning awards of FAIL, boxes of FAIL, and the head title of FAILURE.

David

@ Doc

Wanting to keep those players is admirable, as well as inquiring on A-Rod. But without the minor league talent that we have already acquired by trading Bay, Nady, McClouth et al, we wouldn't have had the necessary chips to trade. And if we had somehow acquired A-Rod, then we'd still be in the same boat that the 2001 Rangers were in, with an all-hit no-pitch lineup that was pretty putrid.

"Amongst the many mistakes in latest lecture, Morris is not in Double A....He's in Single A"

I guess you didn't have time to point out my other mistakes (and please point them out to me).  Sorry, I forgot that Morris is @ Lynchburg, not Altoona.....and he's still 22 YEARS OLD.  

The fact that you've written off a guy who is 22 is disgusting, no matter what level of pro ball he is at or how he is doing.  Like I said, please go root for another team.  Then when they go through a down period you can go root for another team.

@Comet Littlefield...

it is now official..you are in another galaxy.  We are sorry we lost you, comrade.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe McClatchey actually left on his own accord?  He didn't have the bank roll to play, and he actually was ashamed of what was going on after he prevented the team from leaving town.  Nutting has shown no such tendency of being ashamed of anything related to this organization.

Make no mistake his neck is not "on the line" either.  He answers to himself and the IRS.  MLB is not pressing this guy to get out and the ticket sales are sustaining his revolving circus.

@ roberto

So if you disagree with what the front office is doing then you should go root for another team?  That's pretty close minded of you.

I agree it's still far too early to evaluate the trades of the past two years, but as time goes on I have become less and less excited about the players we've gotten back.  And knowing that they're shopping Freddy makes me more and more suspicious that the trades were made based upon finances and not baseball ability.

Which players are you really that excited about?  The third baseman that has 4 home runs this year?  The right fielder that's lost playing time to Hinske?  The AA outfielder that walked out on a game last year?  The pitcher that had a 6.50 ERA last year?  The AAA outfielder that's been given up on by 2 teams?

Why didn't I ,

"If they are fired in 5 years b/c the team is still poor, then I will apologize to you."

If that happens, the Pirates will, unfortunately, not be in Pittsburgh and will the Las Vegas Snakeyes or something

Why Didn't I get to see Roberto? ....I'll be happy to admit I'm wrong about these trades....But not in 5 years.

Give me a break!....5 years!

This is just what these "corporate pirates" want!

They want to convince the average fan that 5 years is logical to analyze a trade. By then...they can start the cycle over & over again.

Bullcrap!

Again....I've seen this movie numerous times, and I'm not interested in the ending.

I'll be happy to admit I'm wrong...but I'm afraid that won't have to happen.

From the looks of things, I think you can start admitting being wrong VERY soon.

As for my changing allegiance...No...Don't worry about that.

I'm sure I've been a fan longer than you because luckily  I DID see Roberto.

This is a disgrace, and myself & others have every right to raise hell about it.

The swindle goes on...and on...and on...and on....

@ Good_for_Nutting

I don't believe that Lemiuex giving up millions of dollars is irrelevant, but he also has a deep-pocketed partner who is responsible for assisting in paying for the team as well.  I also don't forget that he held the city and state ransom for a new arena by actively trying (not just threatening, but actively trying) to sell the team to a man who came out and said he would move the team to Kansas City; Mario would have made a lot of him money from that deal, and we would be watching the KC Penguins skating around with Lord Stanley's Cup right now.  Don't tell me he's entirely selfless; he's in business just as much as Dan Rooney and Bob Nutting are.

As for being a Nutting apologist, I look at the realities of the situation and address that; he's not going to spend money, as he's proven, so I look at what the FO does with the constraints he has placed on it and judge their actions based on that.  I would love it if there were a salary cap and an attendant salary floor that forced him to spend money on payroll, but the problem with that is, if there you force owners to meet minimum levels of payroll, salaries escalate for mediocre players because someone has to get paid for every team to meet the bottom rung; would it make people happy if they had to spend $10M a year for Adam LaRoche just to make the minimum level?

Indoermatt, who did we get in The Bay or McLouth trades ( the 2 I would have definitely foregone) that would be hurting our team now so much that the added offense of Bay and McLouth wouldn't have overcome?

Which prospects are so valuable? Hansen, Morris, Hernandez???

People, people, people - why all the angst?

Almost nobody on the current major league or AAA roster is going to be around when the Pirates become competitive. Stop worrying about trading one player or another, how much the Nuttings spend on payroll, etc. It is all immaterial. THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS TALENT ACQUISITION.

They are fielding AAA players, so why be upset?

I can get a seat on the third base line to see the Scranton Yankees for $14, and I daresay they could possibly beat the Pirates after the trade of Wilson, Sanchez and Laroche.

The Lehigh Valley Iron Pigs have dugout suites 50 feet from home for $30 a ticket, with a catered meal and all the food or non alcoholic drink you want.

The bickering goes on...and on...and on...and on...

Hey Roberto, I think they had weapons of mass destruction in Iraq too. Are you on the Pirates payroll? Or are you trying to pull our leg. You're just kidding right?

Hey CA Pirate, did Neal and Frank give you that quote? Wow. When is now?

al - I don't think the point is just whether or not you like the front office, but you've also just named at least 5 players in one post you don't care for.  You're not alone in this, there are many people who post (in a nutshell) "I don't like or trust the management; our manager is lousy; and I think we have only a couple of good players (or none that would start anywhere else).  But I'm a Pirates fan."  This does get a little confusing when people say they are fans of something that they like nothing about.

I don't believe in everything the front office does, I don't agree with every move John Russell makes.  I might cringe every time a ball is hit in DY's direction, but I want every one of them to succeed.  I want the trades to work out.  I've got no power over the moves being made, but it's the Pirates I root for, and whatever that team lookslike that we put on the field, and regardless of who is behind it, I hope they all succeed, every game.  It doesn't work out that way, and if it doesn't, I'll hope for it again tomorrow.

"If Freddy and jack get traded this team is going to be pathetic for this season and next."

HOW MANY LEAGUE MVPS/SUPERSTARS/FUTURE HOFers HAVE NEAL & FRANK TRADED?

J-Bay? Nope.  

X-man? Nope.

Damaso? Nope.

Nate? Nope.

Nyjer? Nope.

Burnett? Nope.

Hinske? Nope.

Any more that I missed, just throw a nope after that ?

Now......

HOW MANY LEAGUE MVPS/SUPERSTARS/FUTURE HOFers HAVE NEAL & FRANK GOTTEN IN RETURN?

No idea.  Potentially all of them.  Potentially none of them, but for people to have written the amount of young talent acquired off just because they're all not knocking down the door to PNC right now is crazy.  Give it 3-4 years.  You've been waiting 16+ now, what can 3 or 4 more hurt??????????????????????  

Why Didn't I get to see Roberto? ....And quit telling people to go root for another team just because they're not falling for this "corporate piracy."

It's the most predictable, immature, asinine statement that anyone can make  regarding this predicament.

There ISN'T a MLB team to root for in Pittsburgh at this time!

The swindle goes on...and on....and on....and on.....

Diehard,

Nerve issues that can be fixed are nerve impingements by a cervical disc. And even this is 50:50 and could likely end his career. A nerve grows by about 1 inch a MONTH, if it grows at all. So if a nerve is damaged that controls the hand, and the problem is resolved, it could take many months just for it to grow back, then rehab hoping it works right. Anytime I hear "nerve issue" I am worried.

 Why didn't I get to see roberto play,

 Probably because you wee in the coma you are still in. Before you take exception to my evaluation to of the trades to date by this front office look at your own post. You point out that Moss is an unknown because he hasn't had playing time over  a bunch of stiffs (your words not mine)  Well how good is he if he can't get playing time in front of them on this team? Trust me the manager and hitting coach know far more of his abilities than you or I. Hansen threw well in earlier this before being injured?  Really was that another Hansen playing in some parallel universe? He hasn't been able to find the strike zone since arriving and has been an absolute bust since he arrived. And Morris is still young but can't get out single A players when healthy. I notice you neglected to even mention LaRoche :the trades shining star" the slugging third baseman with a combined full years average of .210 with 7 homeruns. I was reading the transcript of todays chat and DK points out how bad the trade looks now.

 And yes Salomon Torres was a desired middle reliever when they dealt him and had some value.  

  And talk about objective? You say that we received 2/5 of our initial starting rotation  from the Yankee trade and then throw out our starters numbers for the year. First of all Karstens was so dominate he lost his role as soon as someone else with a pulse (V V not exactly Cy Young) was deemed a better option. Ohlie had been decent but his velocity is down and can't seem to string together quality starts with any consistency. That trade was unarguably the best of the bunch but certainly not anything to annoint the FO as shrewd. I am objective and baseball savvy, something you are sorely lacking in.    

Why didn't I see Roberto,

".Give it 3-4 years.  You've been waiting 16+ now, what can 3 or 4 more hurt?"

Is this a joke? Why not wait 20 or 30 years more?

Hi, all. Computer problems the last few days.

Everyone has already debated most aspects of this news.  I'll just add 2 quick things.

1)  There must be a good bit of truth to this rumor, because Dejan published it.  He doesn't do that unless he trusts it.

2)  Why are they 'PUSHING' Freddy?  That I don't understand.  Listening to offers?  Fine.  Pushing?  I don't get it.

@ Doc

All of them! Even "suspects" like Hansen and Morris! We traded 2 players for 7. Someday (sooner than later) when the cupboard is full, then these trades will not have to be made. Please go back to last year's stats and look at Van Benschoten, Morris, Herrera, etc. It'll burn your eyes! Trading what is valuable is just one facet of building a strong core. Drafting and international signings are another. Please look at the whole picture.

HELLO ALL FROM ITALY!!!!

no, i am not at the G8 summit, but not all that far away from there.

anyways, can anybody seriously be surprised or shocked by this??  Other than McCutch, Freddy is the ONLY comodity left.  

Now, i dont want Freddy to go just like the next Pirate fan, I for one dont understand how you dont want his presents around younger guys. oh and by the way, i believe he is a former batting champion....but, that was in the past and he's doing very well this year...so, why not trade him?  

Nobody can seriously be concerned for this year, i dont care if they are 6-7 games out of first, will not even come close.....read Bob Smizik's blog the other day about it and he was exactly right.

I've bee resisting the urge to pipe in here, but I can't anymore.

I can't stand the thought of Sanchez leaving, just like I hated seeing Nate go to Atlanta. We are loosing players who for some reason actually want to stay in Pittsburgh. If we were 4 or 5 years into a loosing skid, I'd be raising Holy Hell like most of you. But 17 years of loosing calls for drastic measures. I'm not a fan of the Nuttings and I believe there's been some seriously poor decisions made with this team lately. But, for the first time in a while, these annual mid-July trades are bringing young talent to Pittsburgh. Maybe they will all fail, but maybe they won't. I've argued in here on numerous occasions about the direction this club is going in, or maybe a total lack of direction. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe there's finally some return being sought for Jack, Freddy, AdLa, and the rest who surely won't be with us next year. Does that make any of this easier to swallow? Absolutely not. At least it doesn't today. But maybe we'll be singing a different tune next year.

I respect most of your opinions in here and I'm not trying to throw gas on an already blazing fire. Just wanted to add my two cents.

WDISR quote -That still doesn't mean that they HAVE to do something.  If the return isn't right, they won't do it.  See what happened with Grabow at the deadline last year as example.

end quote

Hopefully you're right. I just get visions of Littlefield when I see so and so player being pushed on other gms.

Maybe the visions will go away soon. (Since Huntington's trades have been good in my opinion so fa)

diehard -

>>but it's the Pirates I root for, and whatever that team lookslike that we put on the field, and regardless of who is behind it, I hope they all succeed, every game.  It doesn't work out that way, and if it doesn't, I'll hope for it again tomorrow.<<

I am sending a telegram to PoH nominating you for the BSKOF of the day. I would offer one myself but I'm not into kissing dudes. Not that there's anything wrong with that. ;-)

This is not a salary dump.

This is not a salary dump.

This is not a salary dump.

It's not a lie if you believe it.

@Daquido...you said a mouthful with ..."There ISN'T a MLB team to root for in Pittsburgh at this time!"

That is the cold hard reality that we face.

Capn -

Sorry to hear you had computer problems.

>>Why are they 'PUSHING' Freddy?  That I don't understand.  Listening to offers?<<

My guess is they have not been receiving offers, or not ones they like, and the trading deadline is rapidly approaching. Freddy figures to be worth more this year - with that option year on his contract - than this time next year when he'll be a FA after the season is over. I'm not necessarily interpreting the pushing as a fire sale, just them putting out feelers to see what interest is there.

Just my opinion based on what I would do if I were not planning to sign Freddy to an extension which I'm sure they are not.

If DK said the Bay trade was bad, then I'm going to try and get him fired. What does he know? Frank and Neal have our best interests at heart. Relax, what's another 5 or 6 more losing seasons?

The best management team in all of sports!

22 days until Steelers training camp, and we can forget about this Minor league team for another year.

Roberto-

Just because Freddy and Jack aren't Hall of Famers doesn't mean the team couldn't get worse if they were traded.  There's absolutely no correlation between the two.  We could trade the entire MLB club for the entire Lynchburg club and put them on the field at PNC and it doesn't mean that just because the Pirates have no current HoF'ers the trade is justified.

There is no justifiable baseball reason to trade Freddy Sanchez and Jack Wilson for anything other than A.) salary dump, or B.) replacements who will be ready and equally productive in no more than 2 years, guarenteed.  

Dejan you notice that in Peter Gammons most recent column he said that a central team that hasn't done well for years, I wonder who, have an agreement with their 4th round pick but the commish's office refuses to ok the deal because it is significantly over slot.

I have posted a lot of potential marketing lines for the Pirates, but thanks to Why didn't I get to see Roberto, we have a winner:

"  You've been waiting 16+ now, what can 3 or 4 more hurt?"

IndorMatt... I asked what pitchers we got in the Bay or McLouth trade are essential to the Pirates this year that would overcome the increased value of Bay and Mclouth. None of them.

Contrary to conventional wisdom, they did not HAVE to trade Bay. They could have signed him to an extension.  They were cheap, and chose the cheap route. It's Nutting's team, its his choice. But as a fan, I don't have to like it

Oh and I apologize for posting something that doesn't make the Pirates look cheap and thus robbing some of you broken records from bashing Nutting for a minute.

aso...

Apology accepted

Since Kevin McClatchy "stepped aside" and was "not ousted" by Nuntting, these things have happened:

* LIttlefield: Fired

* Jim Tracy: Fired

* Entire new front office put in place

* Domican Academy bulit and money spent on scouting and signing players from not only Latin America but South Africa, Australia, India and the Pacific Rim

* Top 5 spending in 2008 draft including record $6.35MM signing bonus for the top talent available, Pedro Alvarez and $1MM to a 6th round pick and $900k to a 20th round pick

* Signing Freddy, Maholm, McLouth and Doumit to extensions

Doesn't appear to me that drastic changes to management occurred from someone who has been "pulling the strings" all along, for 13 years....

Demery, I couldn't have said it better myself!

CometLittlefield....I don't give a damn about "supposed" money spent on academy's, etc.

None of what you say has amounted to a hill of bake beans in the desert.

And...It's funny you include the Sanchez & McLouth signing, because one is gone and the other is all but gone.

Maholm & Doumit to follow soon.

It's business as usual forn 17 years and counting....

And the swindle goes on...and on...and on....and on....

1.  This has not happened yet.

2.  When it does it might be worth talking about.

3.  There is a group of a half dozen or so of you out there who seem to be more interested in taking over the blog and shouting down all opposition than in rational discussion of anything.  You will try to twist this remark into a cry that the board is insular and that anybody who opposes the front office is not welcome.  This is not true, but you will do it anyway.

4.  The last time I was at PNC I got my money's worth.  So there.

5.  Claiming to be a fan does not make you one.

aso - Saw that column too.  If Selig doesn't allow the Pirates to sign him, he could be in for a further challenge to the draft.  And also, in this case, Selig should be the target of the venom here if he's not going to ALLOW us to sign players for what may be market value.

Oh, boy, aso, that is frightening news.  If the commish refuses to ok a signing b/c it's over slot, that may bring us alot of bad news on this draft class.

I can always count on the PBC Blog to get apoplectic over a trade that hasn't happened yet.

You think maybe it's worth it to see a) if the trade actually even happens and b) if it does, what the Pirates get in return?

Hey Demery44,

"Now" is when players currently in Latin American academies, the Australian academy, Bradenton, and State College arrive. I am hoping the FO's talent evaluators are good enough that a whole wave of talent will begin to arrive followed by more waves. Realistically I am looking at 5-7 years before the Pirates finish above .500. They might get lucky some year before that and reach that goal.

Yes, I was being a smartass with my post. Just like most fans, I would like to see the Pirates competitive now. I would prefer they keep Wilson and Sanchez for at least another year since they don't have replacements at hand. I really don't care about payroll issues.

What I really want is the team to be competitive almost every year. To do that, you need a great farm system. I initially had hopes for Littlefield and he turned out horrible. I don't think Huntington is going to turn out horrible but I don't know yet if he will be great either.

Comet, you forgot about the losing continuing.

Diehard, I agree - I'll be happy to make Selig the target of criticism - for this and any number of other things.  He is such a disappointment.

The reality is ultimately they must OK it but, for the time being they can sit on it as MLB likes to hold all significantly above-slot signings til early August at the earliest. But, Dodson is a significant signing and this delay could cost him a chance at full season baseball next season.

@ Daquido - your disavowing of my facts with no contrary evidence does nothing to support your view. Sorry.

@Diehard: Count me as one who is praying Selig's days are almost up as the Commish.

I, for one, will be patient.  I can't judge the decisions of this year (or yesteryear for that matter) yet, so I'll reserve any judgment - good or bad.

If they trade Freddy, I just hope they get some return on him.  I like that this management team has a plan in place.  The question remains whether this plan has been formed properly and will it work.