Little mistakes bring loss to Florida

Just like any win is a good win, every loss is a bad one.

You can't win em all... and certainly not the Pirates.... but we can still take the series!

it was a game more lost by the Bucs than won by the Fish

Another game with not enough offense, yada, yada yada....

Seems like a strange game ... an offense like a car that needs a tune-up - sometimes it hits, sometimes it misses. How long were we no-hit, through the fifth inning? Seems you can't count on playing catchup all the time ...

Plus, like DK says, the little mistakes ... oh, well ... as Kragbax or whoever and Scarlett O'Hara says: "There's always tomorrow."

At least we don't have to follow up one of these games by watching Snell the next day!

Krag's List,

You have a better constitution than I do.  Tomorrow is not here until tomorrow!

Unearned run on error by Adam in 1st; at least two balls counted as wild pitches that weren't blocked by Diaz (shades of hustlin' Ronnie Paulino; Young in the outfield; and Meeks having an air bubble in his brain on allowing the last run to score .  .  .  all of those lead not only to a loss but a losing team.

Could have cut it to 5 back!

Time for a trade tonight so we can win tomorrow.....

Don't bad teams always find ways to lose games?  : (

Kill the radio!  After this loss, the last person I want to listen to is Rocco.

I think I'll go make some popcorn, then go sit on my porch and listen to the neighbors blow each other up.

Sorry you are missing the 4th of July explosions, Stingray.

Keep your head low for the bullets in Texas, Baybee.

Delwyn Young is not the absolute reason the Bucs are so far under .500. But his defense has taken away enough chances to win that they COULD be at .500 with a little luck. Without that misplayed triple tonight, it becomes a 1-run game at worst and all the dynamics change. Young needs to hit a 2-run HR every time he starts in RF just to break even.

Remember the controversy over Young's first statement to the press, after being acquired by the Pirates, about being blocked by good players in LA but having a chance to start in Pittsburgh? Pirate brass did not have their best day when they picked him up.

Who's the real culprit in this? Either NH for acquiring Young or JR for starting him so often. I give them a half-vote each.

I'll repeat what I said at last Saturday night's game. Young is so bad defensively, when the coach signals for outfield alighment, he has to remind Young line up facing the infield.

"at least two balls counted as wild pitches that weren't blocked by Diaz (shades of hustlin' Ronnie Paulino"

Which channel were you watching to assume they were able to be blocked last time I checked it was radio only

"Meeks having an air bubble in his brain on allowing the last run to score"

First it is MEEK and there is a very good chance if you go home that the runner will get into a rundown and end up with 2nd and 3rd and one out

 The Pirates deserved to lose this game. Like DK pointed out throwing a slider is always risky with a runner on third, yet alone 4 straight with the opposing pitcher up. If you keep running DY out there you will continue to get "unearned" earned runs. Good teams like the Dodgers release guys like DY who are totally one dimensional. The Pirates pick him up and play him in front of a guy that was one of the centerpieces of the Bay trade.  Also Moss is starting to hit and can't find the field 3 games in a row despite having ZERO errors and 8 outfield assists. Also did anyone else notice that they started Hinske over Moss the day before he was traded? Did the trade actually surprise J.R.? Did he have no clue Hinske was on the way out? You see glimpses and it is enticing but it still comes back to the look of a circus in need of a tent.  

Young isn't the reason they lost this game, though.  The ball that got by him was the last run.  They were already down at that point.  

From highly respected statistics at fangraphs.com

Brandon Moss Win Probability Added -0.74

Delwyn Young "                                 "  -0.09

According to this Delwyn has not cost us too much and moss has cost us more.

We are not a .500 team.  As fans we want to believe we are, but we are not.  Its time for a firesale.

@WWWYP...Walk said on at least 1 of those WP's that Diaz should have blocked it.  

Unless it is a passed ball or very evident that it should have been blocked there is no reason to blame the catcher, especially if you did not see the play

I don't know who"highly respected statistics at fangraphs.com" means,but if I"m pitching I'll take Moss in RF any day.Believe me the more confident the [pitcher is,the better he throws.It might not go down as an error,but Young has a lot of misplays that NEVER go down as errors.They need to throw a metal ball and give DY a magnetized garbage can lid.

I think they should leave Jaramillo in there ... even if he only hit lefthanded, but he's a switch-hitter, and in my opinion, a better overall hitter than Diaz ... a no-brainer on him being the better of the two catchers, again, IMHO.

And I think I'm at the point, too, where I believe they should just leave Moss in there, and hope for the best. If they're going to platoon someone, I think it should be Pearce and Adam at first base ... but in the business world of showcasing him for other teams between now and the trade deadline, probably ain't going to happen.

DMac & Cheese -

I see your point about that triple being the insurance run and not the losing run. Dynamics change but maybe it makes no difference in the final outcome. However...

You and I have seen Young play the field. If I am the starter, having him in RF works on my mind. I don't want the ball hit to that side of the outfield. Reminds me of games we played as kids with only 8 players per side. We'd leave right field empty because everyone was a right handed batter. Any ball hit to right field always went for a triple. Last Saturday, whenever someone hit the ball to RF, I closed my eyes and waited for the sound of the crowd. Sorry, he just does not belong playing defense in MLB. He has trouble every single game he plays.

@WWWYP...Just because it wasn't ruled a PB doesn't mean it wasn't playable for Diaz.  You didn't either, unless you're blogging from Miami.  It works both ways.  

wwwyp

Highly respected by whom?  Looks like a stat that makes no sense if watch the game.  

                 Just a question did anyone actuallly see Young misplay the triple ? i know it seems plausible he did but whosaw the play?

maybe if moss would show more than "potential" than Delwyn would not play as often.

Bizrow had to make a fool of himself and guarantee a moss homerun for weeks

G-man made a post saying that delwyn hurt our chances of winning and I showed that according to one statistic young had a higher win probabilty.

On the confidence of the pitchers, I am pretty sure that maholm, duke and ross have shown that they have the intellect to not be bothered by that, you can argue his range, you cannot bring psychology into it without proof

Dmac

Here is my post again

"Unless it is a passed ball or very evident that it should have been blocked there is no reason to blame the catcher, especially if you did not see the play"

I think you just assumed that I was saying whether or not it was a passed ball, however, i did not.

Here is more information on my statistic

www.baseball-reference.com/.../wpa.shtml

WWWYP

Have you bothered to read the guide to commenting?  Your comment about Bizrow has no place on this blog.  

@Macs...I don't think anyone has yet, except for those at the game.  I'm waiting for MLB to archive it so I can watch.

JAL

that was not an attack, that was meant in a different tone

like calling someone "silly"

WWWYP

Read the info on the link and saw what is wrong with it--it is not win probability--it is win probability on offense.  It does not take into account defense.  You win games by scoring runs and by preventing runs.  

@WWWYP...I am making no such assumption.

The point is when there is an error it changes many things.IF Young makes a faux pas(just as an example)that changes; How you pitch the next batter(low n away,tight in on the fists),what depth your IF plays(how close to guard the baserunner too),Depth of the OF(he can score easy from 3rd,not so easy from 2nd).Errors affect all players,not just the pitcher.Confidence goes down too.                        

My main point about delwyn is he is not the reason that we are where we are and it is ridiculous to argue with him not here and some luck we would be at .500

In regards to DY though, that triple was not the run that cost this game.  It was an additional run.

"@Macs...I don't think anyone has yet, except for those at the game.  I'm waiting for MLB to archive it so I can watch."

@ DMAC,

                       Thats my point, i would have started Moss as well but it seems like we are designating DY as a scapegoat every game he plays. I agree his play in the outfield has been unacceptable to this point but we need to look at the whole picture, the guy was 2-4 with an RBI and we assume he cost us the game without seeing the play he's accused of missing.

We are 11-9 when young has 3 or more ABs.

We are 24-26 when moss has 3 or more ABs.

There is no arguing the W-L statistic.

No he has had many helpers in the losing of games.I'm just saying cut down on his starts.He is a super pinchhitter.With Salazar up as well,let's put the best defense out there.

"Thats my point, i would have started Moss as well but it seems like we are designating DY as a scapegoat every game he plays. I agree his play in the outfield has been unacceptable to this point but we need to look at the whole picture, the guy was 2-4 with an RBI and we assume he cost us the game without seeing the play he's accused of missing."

Macs,

Thank you so much, just as offense is just one side, so is defense.

Looking at the win loss record you have to say that Delwyn and Moss are a wash neither is more valuable than the other.

If moss would have gotten a hit when he came to bat, then we could have tied the game that inning.  See you can make crazy references both ways.

WWWYP

Silly or fool both name calling and not rational argument

WWWYPO

The W-L stat is meaningless and after tonight it is 11-10 for DY.  Meaningless because there are so many variables that no one player is the reason for W or L

"Silly or fool both name calling and not rational argument"

Give me a reason why I should have any reason to attack him.  I have no problem with him.  

Please flag my comment, my comment so that the PG can look at it.  When bizrow comes on, make sure he reads my comment and if he feels that I have hurt him in any way I will apologize.  Until you do this please do not attack my argument.

@Macs...That's sort of what I am starting to feel everytime a ball gets by DY, and that's not fair, especially on a game like tonight when none of us were able to see the play.

"The W-L stat is meaningless and after tonight it is 11-10 for DY.  Meaningless because there are so many variables that no one player is the reason for W or L"

I already counted the game tonight in the W-L.  How come you have not told G-man that his argument that that we would be .500 without young is incorrect because no one player is the reason for a W or L.

WW Y P ,  I actually would have started Moss, i believe with the way he's swinging the bat and in my eyes Moss is better than Young in the outfield and that is not a real competition but DY is improving.

But just like a lot of folks were screaming not to give up on Moss when he was hitting .170 early in the year i say the same standard should be there for DY glove

JAL

I made a mistake it is 11-10 but it was not that I did not count today I just missed a game because I was keeping track looking at the gamelog.

Don't know if anyone else saw this, but I just read on ESPN that the yanks are looking at Grabow as a possible trade. DK have you heard of any possible talks between NH and the yanks about this?

To clarify again hear is my previous post

"My main point about delwyn is he is not the reason that we are where we are and it is ridiculous to argue with him not here and some luck we would be at .500"

I have not said who to start. I too would start moss on most nights.  

Is it weird that Moss improved since the acquisition of Young.  Moss no longer has to face the tough lefties now that we have Young.  

To add to the win-loss meaning it does have some when the argument made is that a player is costing a team wins.

They have taken both errors off the box score, btw.  Bonifacio got an INF hit and Diaz got credited with a base hit on the bunt.  Both of those were originally scored as errors.

WWWYP

We all make mistakes.  

counter arguments are not attacks.  Saying someone had to  make a fool of themselves is not an argument--an argument consists of claim, data, and warrant.  You made a claim and presented limited data but no warrant.  

WWWYP -

Go back and read my post. Better yet, here's what I wrote (again): >>Delwyn Young is not the absolute reason the Bucs are so far under .500. But his defense has taken away enough chances to win that they COULD be at .500 with a little luck.<<

I did not say he's the reason Pirates are under .500. He's ONE of the reasons. Note my emphasis on COULD by capitalizing it and adding "with a little luck." Don't twist, add to and delete from my words to suit your purpose. Doing that is an example of why people here argue with you and why I generally ignore you.

JAL

If you really are going to continue you to believe that I meant to attack there is no reason to continue the discussion.

The argument I was speaking of in this post:

"Until you do this please do not attack my argument"

was the argument that I meant no harm in saying he was making a fool of himself, not me actually saying it.

WWWYP

Never said you meant to attack. just the comment had no place here.  To me it was an insult.  What we mean is often less important than what others perceive.  On the axis of language, fool is stronger word than silly.  

With that, off for the night

Good night to all and to all a goodnight

Disheartening we couldn't get Zachary W number 9, and also now that were starting to hit homers its disheartening there always solo shots. And boy I think we got a player in Jones!!!

G-man

"Go back and read my post. Better yet, here's what I wrote (again): >>Delwyn Young is not the absolute reason the Bucs are so far under .500. But his defense has taken away enough chances to win that they COULD be at .500 with a little luck.<<

I did not say he's the reason Pirates are under .500. He's ONE of the reasons. Note my emphasis on COULD by capitalizing it and adding "with a little luck." Don't twist, add to and delete from my words to suit your purpose. Doing that is an example of why people here argue with you and why I generally ignore you."

Can you please answer how this post adds to anything to the discussion of moss and young.  Your original post was a starting point to a different discussion.  I am sorry that after 58 min passed i could not remember whether or not you said would or could.

I didn't need your words to suit my purpose at all, my purpose was to show my belief that Delwyn has not cost the team much and that he was about an equal to moss overall.  

I think since an insult is a form of attack, you then believe that I attacked him.

@Bay...If you're stll there, they just said Clifton is 20miles NW of  Waco, TX.

marty

it is now only 8 runs scored in dukes 7 losses, it just shows how hard it is to win on a sub .500 team

       @   Gman

I was not coming after you more than i was trying to point out how we all tend to jump to conclusions based on what we have seen before. Heck last week i slammed Snell after he struck out 17 and he had a 1 hitter because i was convinced he was throwing and not pitching. And i had not seen second one of the game.

If i were JR i would tell Delwyn your bat has got you  the playing time you have gotten so far and your glove has cost you playing time, you are going to have to become a more proficient defensive player to warrant continued P.T

WWWYP

I agree if he pitch for say the Cards or Brew Crew, he'd easily have 10, 11, 12 wins

WWWYP -

>>Can you please answer how this post adds to anything to the discussion of moss and young.<<

Neither of my posts was about a discussion of Moss and Young. I never mentioned Moss. I posted strictly about Young. Period. I was expressing an opinion about his play, chiefly his defensive shortcomings. And you did manipulate my words when you used an innacurate paraphrase of what I said in your reply to JAL. You wrote that I said Bucs would be a .500 team without Young starting. That is not what I said. Call it whatever you want but you put different words in my mouth. The difference between WOULD and COULD is huge. I don't expect you to remember every word I write. But you should go back and re-read them before you re-state what you think I said.

It's fine for you and I to disagree on Young. That's fair and I respect your opinion. But don't misquote me when you are trying to make your points with someone else.

@Macs, and whoever cares...I just watched the triple by Bonifacio, and DY was a victim of positioning if anything else.  He was playing towards R-CF and had a long run to get to the ball anyway.  It had already touched the turf and was rolling toward the wall.  He tried to pick it with his glove, at a run, but wasn't able to.   He was right near the warning track when he got there, and he picked up on the track.  It was a double at the very least, but it wasn't a messed up play, IMO.

I've back tracked and looked again...if they had DY playing straight away RF, he may have been able to keep Bonifacio to a single...2 bases at the very least.  

macs -

We're fine. I didn't think you were coming after me, so to speak. I am not debating here whether Moss is better than Young or vice versa. I was expressing my personal opinion that Young should not be starting regularly or even platooning on the Pirates on an absolute basis due to his defense. It's certainly possible he may be the better choice of the options available. But he's just not an MLB-calibre outfielder.

I will admit I'm being judgemental of the triple Saturday night as no one here really saw the play. I was using it as an example of the liability he represents. Within the last week, Bucs were at some point 6 games under .500. DY has made enough mistakes in the field that a few games could probably have swung the other way or at least made those games winnable. A swing of just three games would take the team from 6 games under to even .500.

Teams expect pitchers to have bad days. They expect hitters to fail 2/3 to 3/4 of the time. Defense, however, is expected to be there 90-something percent of the time. That's why I'm frustrated with DY. He's well below 90% capable in the field.

Just my opinion.

WWWYP

First of all my personal thoughts regarding you bringing me into an argument you are having will, due to the rules of this blog, stay inside.

Secondly, as a correction, I am not making a fool of myself by predicting Moss hits a dinger, I am a Moss fan and I will support him and say what I want any time I want.

I hope you understand that

Am glad I was out watching fireworks instead of in here listenting to them.

DMac & Cheese -

I appreciate your comments/assessment of the triple tonight after seeing the replay. I admit using the game-time descriptions of it as a misplay as a trigger for my frustration post about DY. But we can remove that play tonight and it does not change the fact he is a below-average MLB outfielder and very likely has cost the team chances to win a few games with misplays even when not called errors. Of course, so has Snell's pitching, injuries, and the defensive positioning you mentioned. I saw several times last Saturday night that DY was positioned more than 90 feet off the line against left handed batters. I thought I was seeing things.

That said, the Bucs had two pretty good defensive outfielders (McClouth and Morgan) and chose to trade them. As ye sow, so shall ye reap.

I didnt quote you, if I had quoted you I would have made sure of what you said.  I believe moss has to be part of the discussion of delwyn's playing time because he would get most of it.

WWWYP--just a little advice--your posts indicate an inability to admit you made a mistake.  Your posts have gone back and forth 4 or 5 times with JAL and G-Man when anyone reading can see your posts clearly misrepresented theirs.  Acknowledge your error and move on.  To keep arguing makes you look like a fool (read that "silly", not an attack)

Bizrow

I apologize, but do not believe that you understand the intent of my comment, but you apparently were not the only one to understand.  As many have said tone cannot be seen through a computor, however, it appears that I do not get the benefit of this argument.(I am also sure their will be a post saying I am wrong about this too.)

@G-Man...I'm not disputing that.  Macs asked if anyone had seen the play.  I was waiting for the archive, which I am now watching bits and pieces of.  I don't understand that positioning anymore than I did when they had Nyjer way over in L-CF...and DY is a turtle, speed-wise.  (Sorry, DY)

To me that run is irrelevant, given that they lost by 2 runs.

Maybe we should play Young at first when LaRoche leaves and Milledge gets up.  The worst defensive player always plays at first.  Then we can get his bat in the game and Jones.  Speaking of bad defense, we get one of the worst catchers in baseball back soon.  Doumit couldn't stop a beach ball from going between his legs, haha.

DMAC, appreciate your due-dilligence as always

GMAN, got ya

and with that a good evening to all.

AW

I disagree with that statement.  When it is clear that I am wrong, as when I posted that with young in the lineup the pirates are 11-9, I will say I am wrong.  I am not going to admit I am wrong when I do not believe I am or because someone says so without giving facts.  I apologized to Bizrow when he felt I had offended him and I also apologized to G-man(although not in a respectable manner because I was given the same treatment)

WWWYP

Apology accepted, but please in the future, don't bring people who are not on the blog into discussions to support a certain opinion

IMO there is nothing wrong with having fun on this place, in fact its the main reason I come here, that and my disease of being a PBC fan.

I missed the game, but from the sounds of things, something happened in right tonight.  Hopefully, DK will expound on it tomorrow

WWWYP

Here's what you wrote to JAL (I used copy and paste so I would not mistype anything):

>>How come you have not told G-man that his argument that that we would be .500 without young is incorrect because no one player is the reason for a W or L.<<

That is not what I said. You misrepresented my statement. Go back again and re-read what Arriba said. You made a mistake. It's not the end of the world.

@ Macs...Anytime.  I wanted to see for myself too...I want him to do well, but that does not influence how I saw that play.  

I'm out too.  Have a great night everyone!

@ Macs...Anytime.  I wanted to see for myself too...I want him to do well, but that does not influence how I saw that play.  

I'm out too.  Have a great night everyone!

WWWYP -

>>I also apologized to G-man<<

If you did, I did not see it, thus the harsh tone of my comments.

My apologies to you as well. Let's bury the hatchet.

WWWYP--I'm not surprised.

So catching up, I see that its been reported the Twins are a distant third in the SaNO battle, thats good news, IMO, now its down to $$ vs relationships, if we can sign him, it might speak volumes regarding his character.

Again, can someone give me one reason why we can't draft these guys and why baseball is the only sport where there are no slots for first round draft choices?  Other than the Budmeister, I mean

One thing I'm thinking is maybe its because you draft high school grads, JUCO players done with eligibility or Juniors in college so you can play $$ games with lower round picks?

G-man

I apologized.  If you want me to apologize in way that is more pleasant then give me reason to do so.

This is the hilarious part of the blog.  

This is how an opposing argument get thrown out the window.

First someone brings it forth using good information.

Then someone explains they disagree and bring up a counter argument.

The other person then give information to refute the argument.

THis information is either called meaningless or someone finds a problem with something you say.  They then say your actions are wrong and try to change the subject to this.

Now, as is happening now, baseball is thrown out the window and then they begin to attack flaws or what they want to be flaws.

One person then is made to look like an a-hole and the other one is seen as the bigger and better person.

The baseball that started the subject is now a total afterthought.  

I am going to apologize now for the mistake above because I am sure there is one.

Is it too early to jump on the Garrett Jones bandwagon? While I know this will not endear me with DK at all, I wonder if we could package Brandon Moss to send him somewhere else-Jones has struck the ball with more authority in 4 games than Brandon Moss has since last year's trade deadline. Moreso, Jones' 2 homers have been off of lefties & they haven't been cheap ones by any means. Further, Jones is WAY WAY faster than Moss-he might actually be the second fastest guy on this team now that Nyjer is in Washington.

AW,

Can you please explain why you are not surprised about my response, I would like to understand how you knew what I was going to say when you know nothing about me.

Moss goes deep tomorrow (Sunday) or the first game he plays.

WWWYP - there is nothing wrong with us, well,  no more than any other people, IMO the moniker you use though may bring an edge to response to your posts, just my opinion

@CC - re- Jones

IMO you are talking about the next, future 1st baseman for the PBC,Lastings will be up in 2-3 weeks, Pearce goes down till Adam is traded.

We are rebuilding, so far Jones is a nice piece, so is Moss

Bizrow

One major problem, in my opinion, is when they draft was first created this was not a big issue.  Over the years, as the profits of baseball became larger agents began to exploit the lack of a slot.  Now it will be very challenging to implement it.

I believe that basketball is the only sport to create a slotting system and since there are only two rounds it was much easier to do when the problem arised..

WWWYP--How's your fantasy team, the "idiots," doing?

Re - slotting,

I think hockey has some sort of rules, Sid the Kid could only get so much, football, yeah you are right, especially with top picks, but I think there is a budget for everyone else, or at least there were some rules/regulations

"IMO the moniker you use though may bring an edge to response to your posts, just my opinion"

I agree. The question is, what's the difference between them and myself when they do it.

"IMO the moniker you use though may bring an edge to response to your posts, just my opinion"

I agree. The question is, what's the difference between them and myself when they do it.

@Bizrow

'So catching up, I see that its been reported the Twins are a distant third in the SaNO battle, thats good news, IMO, now its down to $$ vs relationships, if we can sign him, it might speak volumes regarding his character.'

Money will ALWAYS win & why shouldn't it?? Any fool in here that says they would sign with the Pirates for something other than the most money is full of puckey. In fact, I would probably sign with the Yankees for less simply because of two facts:

1. I would have a chance at a world series ring almost immediately no matter when I would end up in the bigs

2. I know that I could have a long career with them if I was good enough & I would make enough money that my family would never have to want for anything.

Why would you sign for a team for less money & face possibly years of sub .500 play AND probably end up being traded to a team like the Yankees or Sox when you were about to make free agency money??? Why not just start with one of those teams to begin with?

While NH & company don't seem to realize this as of yet, it IS important to retain a free agent now & than-players have families & are probably just like you & me & would rather not move every few years---

The Pirates could pay Sano $8M with the money that they saved on this year's lack of signings-but, they won't. He will probably sign for around $5M somewhere else.

It's late. I'm outta here. Last one standing, turn out the lights.

Until tomorrow when Jones is benched (he it a home run) while JR puts both Moss and Young in LF at the same time and shifts AMac waaay over in right center... ;-)

WWWYP--I tell you that your posts indicate that you can't admit you made a mistake and you disagree with that statement and you want me to explain why I am not surprised you disagree with that statement?  I think it is self-explanatory.

Ants marching to Sunday's threads

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