Pirates vs. Mets, 7-2-09: Play ball IV

Last nights lineup hit about as well as the one listed above

: }

From prior thread

This Brandon Moss hatred is somewhat bizarre to me. He is batting .284 with runners on and .260 with runners in scoring position. Consider also that 19 of his 20 RBI have come in only 34 starts since 5/2. If you took his starts since 5/2 he is hitting .318. Set out over the course of a full season of starting (140 starts to be conservative) he has 166 hits, 79 RBI, 41 doubles. Not world beater type numbers but not bad for a guy who had 292 plate appearances before this season. Brandon Moss should be a starting outfielder.

Tim Redding (1-3, 6.35 ERA), is just the type of pitcher the Pirates have struggled against all season. Although the Mets' injury depleated lineup scares very few teams, it does have a lot more power than the Bucs can provide. The Pirates must once again, depend on pitching and defense to win this game. I won't get to check out the game, since that's the middle of the night for me. Just gotta check out the final when I awake. Good Luck Bucs.....

As long as they aren't as woeful as the Spikes were last night. Just not a nice night for State College. Brandon Holden looked really good though.

That was short time for the ML thread--morning links available here

community.post-gazette.com/.../morning-links-embarrassing-anyone.aspx

RE: Pirates lack of power

Didn't they just get done with a stretch of 16 HR in 14 games?  True, they don't have a traditional "big bopper" but they did average more than 1 HR per game for a two-week stretch.  Trading Nyjer Morgan didn't alter their ability to hit HR, and by playing more Moss, Jones and Salazar, they will increase their chances because it is more likely those players will hit HR than Morgan would have.

Also, while the Pirates remain tied for last in the MLB for HR (with the Mets, just as a counterpoint to Stingray's comment that the Mets have more power), they are 6th in doubles, 2nd in triples and 15th in OBP.  

Where the Pirates are lacking is the immediate run scoring boost of the HR and a seeming inability to chain their extra-base hits together to produce big innings, which is what they are going to have to do with the line-up as currently constituted.

I think if the Buccos had jersey's that said "Los Pirates" like the Mets wear on Fiesta Latina night, we might have a better shot at MAS.

I heard from a source close to the front office that Nutting has ruled out paying up for Sano, and that he has been considering a kidnapping with the help of Rob Plummer.  They will bring him to the states, give him a face transplant and a birth certificate that says "Elmer Dessens."  Nobody will see it coming.  Especially Miguel.

If, as Neal says, the Pirates' "internal value" is way off (i.e, low) on almost all of the top Latin American prospects, isn't it logical that maybe their "internal values" are incorrect or at least based on the wrong premises?

I think if the Buccos had jerseys that read "Los Buccos" like the Mets wear on Fiesta Latina night, we might have a better chance with MAS.

I heard from a source close to NH that Nutting is so unwilling to "pay up" for Sano that he is strongly considering a kidnapping.  Agent Rob Plummer will be in on it.  Details are not set, but rumblings from within say they plan on smuggling him into the US, giving him a face transplant and a birth certificate that reads "Elmer Dessens."  

Fool prufe.

Bizrow---

Ya beat me to it!  HAHAHA!!

Good point AW, kinda more double speak, IMO

Our only hope with SaNO is that he gives us a Gayo discount, I fear we will give him a take it or leave it offer, and there will be more on the table from the Orioles, Twinkies are cheap like us

As always, some talk on the earlier thread about trading Adam.  Question is, to where and for what.  That will a hard player to move.  Adam is the type of player a contender picks up when they need a 1b, but he not a difference maker like CC or Manny.  Since his contract runs out at season's end he is not a good option for non-contenders--why give up players when they can wait until off season to sign him as a FA.  So the contenders do not have the need and the non-contenders do not have the reason.

Pirates have put themselves into a spot with Adam--hard to trade for anything of value and be an FA at season's end.  Options are to trade him for low return, play out the season with him and let him go FA, resign him to a new contract.  None an ideal option.

The one thing that could change is the starting !b on a contender going down with a major injury--then Adam would be more desirable.

Biz

I disagree--Maholm is a better hitter than VV :)

@ Arriba: This here "inernal value" talk is making me a bit edgy. I mean, there may be a value for Player X. However, if multiple teams want Player X then that will drive up the value.

It seems from my view that once the PBC settles upon a "value" they stick to that number no matter what the market may do.

Jose

@ JAL

You mean, a team like the Mets, who have lost Delgado for the foreseeable future?  Don't think that Minaya isn't pondering his chances of seeing the unemployment line if the Mets miss the playoffs this year and that might not weigh heavily in his decision-making process.

excuse my double-poast

Bishop

Yes, a team like the Metsif they decide they have no reasonable replacement then could get interested in a player like Adam.

Jose--that is my point and my fear.  Kinda like the "Sanchez was the highest guy on our board."  It seems to me that the PBC can't compete for top FA's and I have no problem with that. But if they ever want to be competitive they have to pay what it takes at this end (Latin America), especially in a year where they admittedly went the cheap route on the draft.  This is all based on the idea that Sano is a special talent that doesn't come around every year.

JAL,

I posted comments regarding potential landing spots for Adam last week.....

1. Mets - Replace Delgado.

2. Red Sox - Replace Lowell. (Youkilis moves back to 3rd).

3. Giants - Lack punch at 1st and in the lineup.

4. Braves - Kotchman is not very product for a corner infielder and there may be mutual interest in a reunion.

I see those 4 clubs as the most likely destinations, but 4 what, I don't know.

I would hope for a middle infield prospect or a lefty bat w/ pop prospect that can play RF or 1B.......but you never know with Neal. He could just get yet another starting pitcher or speedy centerfielder type for all I know.

@ Arriba: I am with you on that thought, believe me!

Jose

@ Hostage: Knowing Adam is at the end of his contract, do you think that a trade with any of those clubs will return much?

Jose

Hostage

All possible.  DK was about Adam in the chat yesterday and he said no interest shown by anyone for Adam or Jack at the moment.

What you get depends on how badly the other team wants a player.

Wilver,

Neal Huntington reitereated last night on a pre-game TV interview with Rob King that the Pirates will spend in the top 5 of MLB on this years amateur draft. He clearly and specifically indicated the Pirates amateur draft spend will be in the top 5.

He also said that he intends to sign in the high 20's number of picks which he says is average. That may be true but I can also tell you that two of the other clubs in the NL Central signed low to mid 30's number of picks in 2008.

I'm skeptical on the top 5 in dollars comment, and will only believe it once I see it.......but that's what he is saying and apparently sticking to.

JAL & Jose,

No, I do not expect much in return for Adam given his contract situation.

UNLESS, a club asks for one of those MLB granted windows to negotiate a contract extension.

For instance, I could see the Braves do that. Agree to the trade in principle, ask MLB for a window, and attempt to negotiate a 3 yr extension.

If that were to happen, I could see the return being better, but if outside of that, I don't see the return being all that great.

I could see LaRoche going to San Francisco for their left handed starter, Jonathon Sanchez(?)  From what I've read, the Giants are looking to move that kid as soon as possible, and I think Adam, with his gap power would be a good fit out there.  

Hostage

Yep, you hit the one possible way to make the trade more attractive--have the taking team negotiate a new contract.  

Re - what to do with Adam

Good points, JAL, IMO, we can't just let him walk, all the talk about  needing talent in the org, if he walks, we get nothing, either sign him, doubtful or trade him for whatever we can get

Re - Neal on FSN last night

His discussion with Rob was quite the opposite, IMO, than what I read, heard before.  He said he was confident that we would sign the first 10 draft picks??

Not to be critical, but it seems as one day its this way, the next another, and so on and yes we will be in the top 5 in spending but then said, the past two years, so don't know if that means anything or not.

Hostage

So far they have signed 15, including the top 5 choices.  Not a bad start with a month and a half left in the signing period.

Bad move to for NH to say would be in top 5 because you can't control what other teams do.  I think number of players signed and where they were selected is more important than how much they spent.  If they sign the entire top 10,  10 from 11 through 30, and 10 from 31 through 50 that should be a good job.  That is not the only scenariuo that would be good, just one example.

@Bizrow

At least they will have an abundance of past quotes to choose from in explaining any potential 'failures' (in the eyes of the fans) come the end of the signing period!

These guys speak out of both sides of the mouth all the time.  CYA early, and instantly claim any unexpected success!

Re - what to do with Adam

Keep him, take the risk and offer him arbitration. (i.e. The Poison Pill)

Hos - very interesting comments from NH re: draft.  If top 5 money yet signing less than 30 players signed, i think that implies going over slot for some of the top 10 or 20 picks who have to date indicated preference for college to increase future draft status.  The fact that they didnt have to lay out PA-like money for Sanchez, or even anything close to usual for a #4 pick, further implies they're planning to go above slot for especially the top 10 picks if they have any shot at getting to #5 in total amount spent.  Not an easy proposition for any team when their targeted picks have other plans (college).  Risky proposition, and one where i would expect we won't see results until right up to the deadline as the deadline game of chicken ensues.

"If, as Neal says, the Pirates' "internal value" is way off (i.e, low) on almost all of the top Latin American prospects, isn't it logical that maybe their "internal values" are incorrect or at least based on the wrong premises?"

I'm pretty sure their internal values are based on statistical analyses and analyses of market prices, which basically means they're dependent on existing evidence.  When a market suddenly skyrockets--which, according to many different sources is what's happened this year in Latin America--any analysis based on past markets is going to be off.  The question is whether they'll adjust their figures to reflect current market conditions.

On the subject of how many picks they sign--It's really unfortunate that this seems to get so much attention, because it's an absolutely meaningless indicator of the quality of a draft.  No team, absolutely none, drafts 50 blue chip prospects.  There isn't anywhere near enough talent out there for that.  Every single team takes numerous guys in the draft that they don't expect to be more than organizational players, i.e., minor league roster filler.  It's not how many you sign, it's which ones that matters.

The most I can ever remember a team signing was when Jeff Luhnow first took over the Cardinals' draft.  They signed something like 43 players.  That draft produced nothing for them.  Nothing.  Even Ed Creech never had a draft that bad.

Good morning all.

If the Bucs want to get better value for LaRoche, why not make him part of a package to someone like the Red Sox. Maybe LaRoche/Wilson for Bowden/Lars Andersonor deccent AA prospect. Then trade off Capps to TB for Brignac+A or AA prospect, and that would take care of the SS position I would really like to see the Bucs try and extend Sanchez to a reasonable deal, but he might be the biggest trade chip we have other than one of the pitchers.

Oh Boy--Young in right--Paul better keep the Mets hitters on the ground.

Must be off for bit now, catch up later.

And to all the gray men (non-avatars) current and future, just click on my avatar for instructions on adding one--they make the posts much easier to follow, as agreed by many of the posters.

Bizzy,

You are right, I forgot to mention that and it surprised me to when he said although it will be tough, he EXPECTS to sign the entire top ten.

So once again he has publically stated his own performance expectations with this draft.....

1. Spend in the top 5.

2. Sign high 20's number of picks.

3. Sign the entire top ten.

He stated all 3 points clearly in the interview with Rob King last night.

Now let's just wait and see how he does.

I hope he is successful but obviously I am skeptical.

@ JAL

Good point about the "top 5 in money" statement by NH.  Obviously, if all things go as Scott Boras has planned, Washington will be first by a large margin, and Seattle should be relatively high because of Ackley.  Removing two slots out of the top 5 is going to make things difficult on NH to get up there unless he gets a lot of the reach guys or if he just signs everyone he can, regardless of whether he is truly interested in them or not.

I've raised this issue before, but I'm curious if anyone else feels, as I do, that the FO, especially NH, talks way too much and puts too many absolutes or near-absolutes out into the media?  Guaranteeing they will sign X number of picks or spend in the top X of all teams on the draft only gives their critics ammunition when you fail; it makes them a hostage to their words.  

They also seem to talk frankly, perhaps too much so, about their feelings concerning certain players, either those in-house or those traded away.  I think they hurt their chances to deal certain players, overinflate expections of production for others and burn bridges with former players, all unneccesarily.  

Thoughts?

Drew,

I draw the same conclusion you have about going over slot given the money he says he expects to spend across the number of picks he expects to sign.

We'll see.

JAL,

It will be interesting to see if Neal can deliver on his stated expectations. Maybe he shouldn't be so specific, but King was asking specific questions too. Maybe he could have said he expects to be in the top 10, but anything else would have come across like he was avoiding the question.

I can also say that in my career I have committed to lofty expectations and deliverables in meetings as a means to motivate me to reach greater heights knowing I had not choice but to achieve whatever it was I said I would. In other words, doing that can be self motivating.

I've always been a big, big believer in saying what you do and doing what you say.

Too many people these days don't do that IMO.

@Bishop

Consider me over-critical, but many of the forementioned 'follies' seem to stem from an omnipresent "I know better than you do" attitude.

If you've got all the answers, and have everything figured out, why worry about burning bridges?  Apparently, in their eyes it seems, they won't need to cross them again anyway ;)

Guess JR does not want moss to grow on his stones.  Only reason to keep him moving in and out of the line-up.

Could it be that Huntington's expectations change because the market changes?  If some teams decide to spend more than the Pirates had anticipated then that could push them out of the Top 5 spending. Maybe some of their draft picks that they thought they had a chance to sign decide to stay / go to college.

I think there is a little too much analysis of this before the deadline. Why don't we wait until it is all said and done, then we can criticize or praise.  I for one don't know enough about these drafted kids (unlike the NFL draft) to form opinions on them if they should be signed and for how much money.  (unless their name is Weiters ;-)

They drafted players in the later rounds who'd be good alternatives to the guys in their top ten.  If they fail to sign, say, Dodson and Stevenson, but sign Heller (29th round) and Gelinas (45), I might actually prefer that.  They probably drafted some guys later to serve as fallbacks in case they don't sign some of the earlier guys.  The exact mix they end up with is the most important thing here, not the symbolic significance of signing the top ten.  If you rated the talent they drafted, the top ten talents and the top ten picks would not be the same.

WTM,

"On the subject of how many picks they sign--It's really unfortunate that this seems to get so much attention, because it's an absolutely meaningless indicator of the quality of a draft."

Tell that to Neal Huntington. He's the one who declared the number he intends to sign.

Also, I have to disagree with you on this point in this way.

In 2007 once again the Pirates fielded a team with one of the three lowest payrolls in MLB, telling fans the ongoing promise that they were in the process of building a championship caliber club through the draft and farm system. Then they went out and bypassed the universally regarded better talent in Matt Weiters for the less expensive Danny Moskos. But here is the topper, to make matters worse, when that draft was all said and done, the Pirates signed the 3rd fewest number of picks in that 2007 draft across all of MLB.

So you tell me, how do you build a so-called championship caliber club through the draft when you are selecting lesser talented players and signing fewer of them than almost any other club????

The higher number of picks you sign, the greater the liklihood that a Albert Pujols (13th round pick) or a Nate McLouth (25th round pick) may emerge. Granted, the chances may not be great, but they are better with more picks vs. less.

Good morning all...

In regards to AdLa, even though I'm a big fan, I've given up on signing him--therefore, I think we need to trade him.

At the risk of getting into DK's soupless line--if we were to package he & Wilson, would that pry Yunel Escobar from them? Would we need more in return, or have to give more?

I honestly don't know, but figured I'd throw it out there.

@ Bishop: I agree with you. He certainly does not keep his cards close to the vest.

Out for a bit myself.

Jose

I would like to know what JR has against Moss? if he could not play him today, he can't play him any day. No excuses for not playing him today.

I have said this so many times that I am getting repetitious.

PLAY YOUR FIRST STRING. People pay money to see your best players!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What other team or sport in the world plays their second string as much as JR.

They were going good with the first string, now were back to mix and match. Hoping that we luck out for a win today.

Very surprising to see Jones in LF again and Moss on the bench against a right hander.  

Another point I want to make is I think it would be a huge mistake to move Sanchez and Wilson unless we are getting a major league ready young SS or 2B.  The guys we have in the minors are not major leaguers.  Until we get a decent return or replacement for these guys, there is no reason why Neal should part with them.

Feelin' good about the game today...

Nutho

"In 2007 once again the Pirates fielded a team with one of the three lowest payrolls in MLB, telling fans the ongoing promise that they were in the process of building a championship caliber club through the draft and farm system."

Did Dave Littlefield actually promise this?  I'm not sure he had an actual plan on how to build a championship caliber club (which seems to the term used by NH, FC and BN..not littlefield).  He's the same guy that traded for Matt Morris.

Also, is there an easier way to refresh the page?  It's a pain in the butt to refresh and then scroll all the way down and try to figure out where the last post I read was.

Bishop and Jose,

Speaking of cards close to the vest, while forthright, I thought Huntington's comments regarding Ian Snell were incredibly ill-adivsed as they reduced significantly any leverage he may have had in trade negotiations.

It seemed to me he let himself get caught up in a battle of words with Ian and did not consider the consequences.

Jorge Arangure of ESPN Deportes is claiming that the Pirates have not yet made an offer to Sano:

twitter.com/jorgearangure

Jorge Arangure of ESPN Deportes is claiming that the Pirates have not yet made an offer to Sano:

twitter.com/jorgearangure

ESPN is saying the Pirates haven't made Sano an offer yet. i don't expect him to sign anywhere for a couple days. but i would have though the FO would have sent him something.

nevermind. already been covered.

@madturk:

"Guess JR does not want moss to grow on his stones. . ."

LOL (insert Rolling Stones reference here)

@ NuHo

Counterpoint to your discussion of 2007 draft.  That was Littlefield's regime, an aimless and wasted period of time lacking all direction.  He said that they were building through the draft and farm system, yet showed no indication that he actually was going to do that.  Littlefield was afraid of drafting Wieters because he didn't want to have to negotiate with Boras, and IRT signing a low-number of the picks he did make, due to the poor talent evaluation methods in the system at the time, it probably would not have made any difference if he'd signed all of them anyway.  

Contrast that to NH, whose actions, popular or not, show commitment to at least trying to do just what Littlefield said he was trying to do.  I know you like to hang his success rate on if he makes good on all of his public proclamations, which IMHO he should not be making, but whether or not NH is ultimately successful will not be measured in terms of picks signed or $$ spent, but rather if the talent stream through the system produces more MLB-level talent that eventually reaches the majors and contributes to the future fortunes of the team.

@Bishop -re - FO talk

Yes, some comments on players IMO should not be made, I like frank talk, but its not always consistent, and sometimes I wonder if its more selfserving than truth, on FSN I got the feeling that NH was just saying what people wanted to hear, and again not to be critical, but thats what I felt

@WTM - re - the top ten talents and the top ten picks would not be the same.

Absolutely, as you have noted on your site and others have said on places like ESPN, the first several picks by the PBC were over-reaches, with some being projected as 3-4 rounds later.

I just hope the FO pulls it off

regarding leverage in trading Ian:

-scouts from other teams have seen him pitch for the past year and a half

-

-any GM or member of the front office of any other team can look up on the internet the stories written about Ian.  They can see where Ian says "I asked to be sent to AAA" and " I need to work on things, clear my head, get away from the negativity"  

All of that contributed to no leverage.  They tried to trade him in the past.  No takers.  (part of the reason may be his contract too)

Biz

Yes, some comments on players IMO should not be made, I like frank talk, but its not always consistent, and sometimes I wonder if its more selfserving than truth, on FSN I got the feeling that NH was just saying what people wanted to hear, and again not to be critical, but thats what I felt

_________________________________

What did Neal say on Fox that would be tough for him to back up?

@ Thunder

Snell's contract isn't onerous; it's rather reasonable.  His maturity and focus, on the other hand, that's the issue.  

It's the same reason why Oliver Perez was a thow-in on the Nady deal; $100 arm, 10 cent head.

'Scuse me, but why is Vazquez in the lineup again today??  Is Freddy going to be the headline today?

NuHo, sooner you realize Neil didn't draft Moskos the better off you'll be in your ignorant quest to educated the rest of us on baseball. Don't argue with WTM, he clearly understands the draft while you dwell on Dave Littleyields drafts.

This is what Neal & Frank get paid to do.  Figure out ways to get the most return for guys we need to move.  

Now that Hanrahan is here, I say we move Capps.  I've never really liked Capps as our closer (he seems to pick up the easy saves, but when put into tight spots, usually comes up short IMO).  Seems Tampa could get hot for a closer if they start to really close the gap on the RSox and Yankees.  Possibly willing to give up Brignac (although if Bay didn't fetch him, idk if Capps would).

Jack has to go.  Idc how it gets done, but Neal and Frank gotta figure something out.  I know he loves Pittsburgh and the Pirates org., but it's time for Jack to go.  9 years and no winning seasons, I think it's time for both parties to start afresh.  Thanks for the great memories and awesome defense for 9 (I think this is 10 now?) seasons.  Maybe if Capps can get Brignac, then it'll make it much easier for Neal & Frank to move Jack.

Same thing with Adam.  He's gotta be moved.  He's not going to be resigned and they can't let him walk for nothing.  He does have some value.  The Mets would probably be a big candidate with Delgado out, but their farm system is bone dry.  As long as Philly continues to scuffle and keep NY in the NL East race (Idk for how much longer + the Marlins are about to take the lead in that Div.), I think they'll be in the mkt. to get a 1B (and a whole lot else).

I think we could move Maholm, Duke, Grabow, or Capps (again) to the Phillies.  This is a team that looks to have some nice talent down in their farm system (Drabek (how sweet would that be?!), Marson, Carasco, couple other really high upside young arms, I just forget their names).  Also, w/ Jimmy struggling, maybe Jack to Philadelphia?  Probably not likely, but coming off a WS title, fans (especially in Philly) aren't going to be happy if they miss the playoffs.  Might make Rueben Amaro Jr. get a little nuts come July 31.

Neal & Frank.  The PBC WRECKING CREW!!! EXPLODE THAT MUTHA!

Thundercrack,

"Did Dave Littlefield actually promise this?"

Yes, he most certainly did.

His two standard responses to questions of how the club was going to get better was:

1. Through the draft and farm system.

2. The players we have need to player better.

Dude you have to remember, I read EVERYTHING. If DK reported it, or it was on the Pirates website, I read it. I also usually listen to the GM radio show on Sundays.

He most definitely said those things.

Now to your point, the existance of, and execution of a plan is highly questionable.

Re - SaNO

DK reported that an offer was made, don't remember the last time he was not right on target with info, so I'll stick with his word.  

Re - NH and comments

As NuHo said, he set the mark

@wormburner - changing stories

Thats why they teach you to change foxholes in the Army, better chance of not getting shot ; }

"Another point I want to make is I think it would be a huge mistake to move Sanchez and Wilson unless we are getting a major league ready young SS or 2B.  The guys we have in the minors are not major leaguers."

This is probably the reason why jurrjens is not in a pirates uniform right now.  

FYI...live updates on today's Dominican signings on this site:

www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered

@leadoff, re - NH

I'd say just follow NuHos post, top 5 spending, expecting to sign the first 10 draft choices, after earlier being quoted as saying they would be tough nuts to crack, different audience, perhaps different tune being sung?

I do agree with your thoughts on Moss, PLAY THE GUY, and also agree with comments on Freddie, make a weak lineup weaker with Vasquez in there,

@Hostage:

One minor point, but I believe that NH said that they would be in the Top 5 in draft spending over the past 2 years, not that they would be in the top 5 this year.

Since they were reported to be 4th last year,  there's room for them to be 6th or 7th and still be in the Top 5 for total money spent over the last 2 drafts

Mr. Bishop,

Counterpoint to your counterpoint.....

Yes, different GM's but the same owner with the same budget philosophies.

People forget that when he was originally hired Littlefield was regarded as one of the brightest young and up and coming executives in the game. And his first off season was actually pretty darn good.

Littlefield crumbled under the financial restrictions placed upon him and never recovered.

The other issue is that I competely disagree on what Huntington should be measured on. Ultimately he should be judged on the number of wins by the Pittsburgh Pirates. Not talent streams. Just the bottom line results. So far, he is not meeting my expectations.

Why didn't I

Now that Hanrahan is here, I say we move Capps.  I've never really liked Capps as our closer (he seems to pick up the easy saves, but when put into tight spots, usually comes up short IMO).  Seems Tampa could get hot for a closer if they start to really close the gap on the RSox and Yankees.  Possibly willing to give up Brignac (although if Bay didn't fetch him, idk if Capps would).

__________________________________________

Apparently the Pirates are looking to jump the market before the market gets flooded with prospects for other teams, since there are so many teams in the running this far into the year, there is less talent per position out there. The Pirates know they are going to move players so they are starting a little early. (McClouth,Morgan)

Teams looking for 1st basemen or relief pitching don't have much to pick from yet, but they will have at the July trading deadline.

I read somewhere, I don't remember where, that Capps was put  on the available list. The problem with him is that the PBC is going to want a lot to move him.

Grabow is also supposed to be on the list also.

Any person who believes a farm system can be brought back from the dead in two years is expecting miracles. Hunnington's time of judgement will be the second half of next season in beyond at the absolute earliest.

@ Hostage      

 Since i wont comment on this "interesting" line up today i want to discuss Jack,Adam and Freddy. We are being primed for the inevitability of Adam Jack and Freddy being dealt because that's what the Pirates do.

         If it all goes down that all 3 are dealt for prospects without suitable replacements to bridge the gap i will join "NUHO NATION" and give everything i can to let Bob Nutting know putting a product on the field that is admittadly inferior is completely unacceptable.

          If we havent developed or acquired the necessary talent in the organization to replace those players the deals should not be made.

Nutting should make reasonable offers to all 3 players if those suitable replacements are not acquired, it should be considered a cost of doing business.

Where did Dejan find that forecast?  It is in the 60s and there won't be any sun today.

It is nice to see the lineup shaken up, even though Freddy is getting a rest day.  Maybe having Young and Jones in the game will get some hits around LaRoche and he'll be lucky to run into a pitch.  

Maybe give the Rays Capps and Sanchez since Tampa's 2B is out for the year.  Maybe that will net us Brignac.

I am worried the Pirate ship is heading into a Perfect Storm:

Front 1: they lose out on Sano leaving them with unspent money

Front 2: they fail to entice some of these high school picks to skip college and sign leaving them with unspent money

Front 3:  they trade Jack, Freddy, and Adam or some combo of the three leading to another 2nd collapse in the standings.

Another 2nd half collapse in the standings?  How far can you fall from LAST PLACE?

@ Leadoff - Capps and Grabow

I read that too, I believe it was on MLBTradeRumors

They have options next year on Freddie and JW, over $8 each, so they could keep them over the winter and try to trade them, or conversely they could re-negotiate and then trade or keep them if they can't find or trade for replacements, one would think they would do something with them before July 31, either resign or trade, but what do I know?

NuHo

Counter to your counter.  

I think the reason that DL failed is that he never learned to adapt to the financial restraints, not that they existed.  He didn't make any attempt to change his strategy IRT the draft, Latin America and FA signings in light of the fact that he didn't have strong financial backing.  He tried to straddle the line between being competitive at the MLB level, by making a number of low-level FA signings of guys past their peak, and rebuilding, which he was woefully underprepared to do because he did not have a strong talent evaluation infrastructure in place.

As for how to measure NH's success, we agree.  My post did not explicitly spell out "wins and losses" as the measure; I assumed that was implied by stating that it was dependent on the amount of MLB-level talent that contributed to the future fortunes of the team.  The Pirates have had precious little upper-level talent come through the system in the recent past, so little that minor successes such as Grabow and Duke are highlights, but obviously, once Alvarez and Lincoln and others like them make the MLB, it is to be expected that the W-L record will improve.  I apologize for not being more specific in my post.

@ bjm

You don't have to worry about a collapse, we are already in last place.

This seems like the best hitting lineup JR could possibly throw out there, with the exception of not having Sanchez playing at 2B.  I'd like to see this same lineup in Florida, putting Sanchez in and moving Wilson back to 8th.

KM,

c'mon...I was talking overall record.

Are the Buccos on FSN today? Anyone?

Biz

I don't think spending in the top 5 or signing the top 10 is much of a challenge for Neal. His situation changes daily, probably even hourly with the people that he is dealing with.

Now that he knows what the top ten want, how many he has signed thus far, how much money he has left, makes an evaluation of how many he can sign a lot easier than it was a week ago.

As far as spending in the top 5, he has a pretty good idea of how much every team is going to spend based on past performance, he knows how much he has to spend. Pretty easy statement for him to make.

I believe we are being way to picky with Neal.

I believe he wants to communicate with the Pirate fans, but the Pirate fans do not understand the minute by minute changes that can and do happen to alter what he says. We then get people saying he talks out of both sides of his mouth, he said this, he said that.

Wake

This seems like the best hitting lineup JR could possibly throw out there, with the exception of not having Sanchez playing at 2B.  I'd like to see this same lineup in Florida, putting Sanchez in and moving Wilson back to 8t

______________________________________

No way is this a better hitting lineup than yesterday.

What is better about today than yesterday?

Last nights or todays lineups are not the first string, this is mix and match, not good at all.

Jason Bay to become a U.S. citizen:

www.thesunnews.com/.../963842.html

Just wanted to see if anyone caught Jurrjens start last night - 7 innings, 1 hit, 4 BB's, 6 K's.  This against the defending world champions mind you.  Oh, and he's sitting at 6-6, 74 K's, 2.73 ERA and 1.24 WHIP.  But, hey, at least we still have Jack.

Oh, and also, Does anyone see how the Succos CAN'T sign Sano?  I mean, at this point, what do they have to lose?  They dealt away the equivalent of his signing bonus already.

Rain

Jimbo Jair Jurijens has no relevance to the current regime in Pittsburgh if you want to criticize make it relevant.

Look at that. I've been a Gray man my whole life and poof now i'm a Bucco. BTW how good would the retro logo look on the sleeve instead of that snarling, red cartoon. We should make it a movement. Bring back the Bucco!

@Bishop--<whether or not NH is ultimately successful will not be measured in terms of picks signed or $$ spent, but rather if the talent stream through the system produces more MLB-level talent that eventually reaches the majors and contributes to the future fortunes of the team.>

Couldn't agree more.

We seem to be having an overflow of those "no soup for you" trades mentioned.  The July 31 deadline can't come too soon, although then I guess we'll be talking about the offseason trades that will never be made.

NuHo--my conclusion, until proven otherwise, based on the Sanchez signing, is that they went cheap on this year's draft and if they have to "overpay" for Sano then they should throw out the "internal value" they have placed on him.  What is the most we are talking about-- $2-3 million difference?  It's not like we would be committing $125 million to Arod over 10 years or even 30 million for Adam over 3. We wasted way more than the $2-3 million on Morris and on Burnitz/Randa.  At least with Sano there is an upside, potentially a huge upside. (And no Boras)

Mr. Bishop,

Counter to your counter of my counter to your counter.....

I don't disagree as to the explaination of why it came to be Littlefield did not perform under the financial contraints. Further, I will proactively agree that Huntington's plan is more defined, more strategic and he is demonstrating greater discipline when it comes to adhereing to said plan.

But, I still disagree with the root of that part of the discussion , the notion that the number of picks signed is not important.

I still maintain that it is. When a club such as the Pirates are basing the entire future and success on the draft and farm system, they will require both quality and quantity of young talent to achieve success. Let's not forget that other clubs today already have demonstrated tracks records of drafting both quantity and quality better than the Pirates. Two that jump out at me right away are the Brewers and Red Sox. And their are more.

If the PBC is going to be successful in the future with a steady stream of talent, they can't do that by just catching up to other clubs and how they manage the draft and farm system, the PBC will need to do it better. Because don't forget, those other clubs are not only currently doing a better job with the draft, but they are also willing to spend some money on free agents to fill gaps, something the PBC never does.

I meant if Sanchez were added to the lineup, but it is nice to see Young, Diaz in there, who are natural hitters. I'd like to see this lineup with Sanchez in the 2 spot.

Ug Vazquez two games in a row.

Now J-Bay can light it up in the 2012 Olympics for the US....

wait.....

Baseball isn't an Olympic sport anymore........

O well.....

WBC anyone?

Aso

It's all relevant.  It's one huge 17 year old all of crap.

Wilver,

I will have much less of a problem with the Sanchez pick if you are right and they land Sano.

But, on the other hand if they maintain their position on internal values and allow themselves to be outbid for Sano, then despite what Bob Nutting says I think it would be completely appropriate to question his and his families commitment to winning.

Other words, I agree with your logic if in fact it plays out that way.

@aso

Since you asked, how about Ronald Belisario?

re Teahen

He can also play second base, which is something that could come in handy if further deals were made by us.  He's not really a first-base bat.

re Lineup

Sit Moss again, thank you!  Players who hit .270 should be platooned. You know, unless they're 29 year olds with speed (but no sense of how to run the bases) and no arm, in which case they should be mourned when traded for 5-tool prospects.

Moss by month: April - .203 AVG /.254 OBP May - .305 AVG /.345 OBP June .281 AVG/.339 OBP.  

Of course, his .305 May got him 14 starts in June, and 13 benchings. He hit .400 (10/25) as a starter after the four game benching that ended June 17.  In that stretch of .400 hitting as a starter, he was still benched 5 times, including twice for consecutive games. He hit .414 (12/29) total after June 17.  Good work stashing him back on the bench JR.  Wouldn't want him to move into sole possession of the NL lead in outfield assists (currently T-1).

Prediction:

The Pirates will not sign Sano.

The overly protective of the FO will give many reasons why they did not need him and that he wouldn't be a part of the core when the Pirates start winning.

When is now?

Jimbo

In what universe have the Pirates dealt away $4 Million this year?  The Pirates added salary in the Nyjer trade, and shed less than $200,000 in the Hinske trade.  

Bay Area,

How much did they shed in the McLouth deal?

"they are also willing to spend some money on free agents to fill gaps"

========================================

NuHo,

While I agree with that statement, 2 things.....

1) Pittsburgh isn't necessarily a player's dream place right now to play baseball.  The type of FA's that will come here are the Jeremy Burnitz's or Doug Mientkiewicz's (I'm not putting Dirty Doug down, just he's not exactly type A) or Craig Monroe's...just not top caliber guy's.  The PBC has to show they can contend for a few years before we see a resurgence in our FA signings.

2) Without a contender, why do we need guy's like Craig or Jeremy or Doug (again, not putting him down, but he's a bench player at best)?  They don't make any impact on the starting lineup, so again, until our PBC can start contending, we'll see these types of FA signings

I know this is gonna irk you NuHo, but Bob Nutting has said that he will spend when this team shows it can contend, so........

I guess we'll see.............

I guess those "contending" days are a little ways off though ;)

I see 2.5M they cleared from Nate, so that deal should net them about 2M.  So, not really 4M, but when the team's payroll is essentially covered before they sell a seat, can't they afford to throw some money around?  

Macsinthebox,

You may find this hard to believe, but I have conflicting thoughts regarding the potential trades of LaRoche, Sanchez, and Wilson.

As you and most everyone on this blog are aware, I want this organization to place a priority on winning again. Not just for the short term either. I wanted, and frankly believe we fans deserved to see Nutting and the FO to build around the core that was in place (Bay, McLouth, etc).....

That ship has sailed though so I am willing to support a complete rebuild if in fact they do that.

I would actually be encouraged and excited to see a young group of talented players put on the field that you can see will be competitive as they gain experience. Much like you could see developing in 1987 and 1988 when Bonds, Bonilla, Van Slyke, Drabek, Smiley, etc, were coming along.....So if that means LaRoche, Wilson, Sanchez, Grabow, and even Capps and Doumit need to go to for the additional middle infield and lefty bat with power prospects we need, I'm OK with that and I will support that strategy and direction.

What I don't have tolerance for and will not support is something in the middle. No commitment to the present or the future. Some veteran scrub signed to play any of the vacated positions just as a means to play out the schedule for that has pretty much been Pirate baseball since 2004 and I have lost my patience with that approach,

So to summarize,

1. I preferred and would have supported a commitment to now and the former core that was in place (Bay, LaRoche, Wilson,Sanchez, Doumit, McLouth, Maholm, Duke, Capps, etc).

2. I will support a complete rebuild with promising young players if the PBC makes that full commitment.

3. I will not support and I will continue to deride the same in-between approach we've seen since 2004.

Hope that makes sense?

It's all a success if they sign Sano and what remaining 15 to 20 players drafted. Lets make check list or depth chart of the must signs to make all of os happy.

Bring back the Bucco!

Jimbo

McLouth's 2009 compensation: $3.5 Million

HOWEVER, $1.5 Million of that was a bonus (and thus already paid).  His salary is just $2 Million.  Dealing him at the 1/3 point means he has been paid roughly $660,000 of that, meaning 1.34 Million is owed. So they "shed" that. But then you have to consider that his spot had to be taken by someone on the 25 man roster -- Charlie Morton, in this case, at league minimum (approx $400,000 for the year, or $260,000 for 2/3 of the year).  

Therefore, they shed about 1.08 Million from the payroll in the Nate McLouth deal.

In the Hinske deal, they shed $400,000 of his remaining $800,000 salary.  However, bringing up a player to replace him at league minimum rate means a little over $200,000 to be paid (to Garrett Jones in this case).  And thus, a savings of a little less than $200,000.

Hanrahan makes $12,000 more than Burnett. So add $6,000 there.  Nyjer makes about $9,000 above the league minimum, so subtract $4,500 there for his league-minimum replacement.  Thus, we added $2,500.

However, Lastings Milledge makes $40,000 more than Nyjer, so we'll add a few bucks if he comes up.  

Basically, the trade with the Nats is a wash, and we save about 1.2 million on the other two.

Hardly 4 million.

"1. I preferred and would have supported a commitment to now and the former core that was in place (Bay, LaRoche, Wilson,Sanchez, Doumit, McLouth, Maholm, Duke, Capps, etc).

2. I will support a complete rebuild with promising young players if the PBC makes that full commitment.

3. I will not support and I will continue to deride the same in-between approach we've seen since 2004."

=========================

I second NuHo's three statements above.

Far from relevant, Littlefield isn't the GM, Neal would have made that trade in a heartbeat considering his tendancy's and prefrence for power arms. When you start looking at the plan which is being carried out you'll be able to understand my logic.

I support the complete rebuild with the full commitment. I am fine with every deal made by NH so far, even excited about the last one. Is that the light at the end of the tunnell I see, there off in the distance. Does any one else see that faint light.

Bring back the Bucco!

NuHo

Counter to your counter, blah, blah, blah...

You are correct, at least statistically speaking, that the chances of finding a diamond in the rough are increased by increasing the number of draft picks signed.  However, not all draft picks are created equal; McLouth was a reach in the 26th round and the Pirates had to pay a sizable bonus for him to forego college.  So while they can sign lots of players and bring them into the system and that makes the numbers look all shiny and pretty, I'd rather they make strategic decisions, like was done with Grossman and Miller last year, to draft a number of reaches with high upside in lower rounds and bring them into the system rather than just getting overall numbers up.  

As for the Brewers and Red Sox having proven track records, you are correct, but that is due in part, because their FO has remained relatively unchanged for a longer period of time and there has been enough time to evaluate the results of those drafts; we may be saying the same thing about the Pirates in 3 years when the Grossmans and Millers and D'Arnauds of previous drafts are in the majors.

Again, NH and FC have only been at this for 20 months.  To start judging them on the talent that their efforts have produced to date is as ridiculous as are the "insta-grades" on each NFL team's picks the day following the draft.  Time must pass and actual measurable results from each player must be returned before one can state "boom or bust".  

Also, the Brewers drafting before they put Jack Zduriencik as Scouting Director in place was pretty miserable.  For the decade of the 90s, the only two impact first rounders they had were Geoff Jenkins and Ben Sheets, the 2nd round yielded none, and they had a relatively small percentage overall of draftees to even make the majors from the first 5 rounds from that decade.  Only after they put the right folks in place (including Dean Taylor, followed by Doug Melvin, as GM) and developed their own strategy did they begin to be looked at as draft geniuses.  

wake - In the Bucs last 10 games which player has been the better hitter - Moss 11-29 (.379), 4 2B, 7 BI vs. Young 2-16 (.125) 1 HR, 4 BI (one game).  Both have struck out 6 times in that span.   Delwyn is the better hitter?  Based on his hot start (which ended 3 weeks ago) against Moss' slow April?

Aroldis Chapman has defected from Cuba!

21 yr. old (although how reliable are Cubano birth certs), 6'4'' LHP, who routinely throws 100 mph, and has topped out at 102.

Here's a link to the article:

www.theyankeeuniverse.com

Here's quite the power arm the NH loves and covets....

Maybe they were waiting on this to spend their money??

Chapman and Sano????????????

NO WAY!  HAHAHAHAHA

BAB,

Nutting saved more than $1M in McLouth's salary this season....he avoided an additional $10M to $12M over the remainder of that deal.

The entire payroll liability went with McLouth to Atlanta. - Not just the part that remained for 2009.

Young needs to get his starts in, he can hit for power and drive in runs.  Something the Pirates lack.

Altoona Curve players named to the Eastern League All-Star roster:

Daniel Moskos (P)

Jason Delaney (INF/OF)

Brian Friday (INF)

Hey all...afternoon game, so no PBP.  Sorry.  :-)

BTW...I'm guessing Freddy is just getting a day off due to the schedule.

Anyway, are the Pirates going to start on time today?

Why Didn't I Roberto.....

I agree free agents don't make sense now given the current structure of the club, but I don't believe Bob would allow his FO the financial resources to fill a lineup gap with a free agent worth having no matter how good the core or how close to winning.

For instance, let's say McCutchen, Tabata, Milledge, Sanchez, Lincoln, Morton, etc.....all pan out and in 2 or 3 years we have the makings of a real contender except that we have no decent player for second base. And lets say that gap could be filled with a 3 year contract to a Brandon Phillips kind of free agent second baseman to fill out the lineup......$30M or so......

I never see the day that would occur.....

Therefore, they need both the quality and the quantity from the amateur draft.

If they are going to ride that horse, then do it, don't just say it.

Chapman is going to get about 10x the money Sano will.  8-10M a year on a major league contract.

No chance the Buccos go after him.

Why Roberto......

That's all I have ever asked for from the PBC....a full commitment to winning, preferably now but if not now then in the near future.

It is the lack of commitment to winning in either scenario that has always irked me to the point that I have become their biggest critic.

The in between commitment to now or the future only assures one outcome......more losing and more profit for Bob Nutting.

Give me one, or give me the other.....not this in-between garbage e've had since 2004.

wake - Again, "Young needs to get his starts in, he can hit for power and drive in runs."  And yet you do realize that Moss' career rate per/AB rate of 2B's, HR's, and RBI's is better than Youngs, don't you?  Even their RBI rates are deceiving when you consider that Delwyn either PHs (having either Moss, Jaramillo, or WIlson on base) or hits in the top 3 (McCutchen or Sanchez on base) while Moss is trying to move the LaRoches around the bases.

Demery--going out on a limb and predicting they aren't going to sign Sano?  ;-)

NuHo--I wasn't predicting that they WOULD sign Sano (I'm not that crazy), only arguing that they must and that an excuse based on dollars won't be very credible, to say the least.  But I also don't see any disagreement on what we are both saying on this issue.

I'd complain that Vazquez is in there two days in a row, but the last time I did I think he hit in the winning run.  

NuHo

That "savings" is not yet realized, however. The outlay was not to occur until next year, and the following year.  Thus, it can't really be said that the savings is cash-on-hand.  Moreover, the Pirates may also "lose" some marketing benefits of Nate McLouth.  

You're certainly right that, in theoretical terms, there is a savings there down the line. But I'm not sure how you could calculate it, at least not to determine extra monies for Sano, today.  That's what I was trying to do with the previous math.

So if the article says Chapman is 21, what does that make his actual age? 26-27?

NuHo

Is 2004 really the cutoff?  I'm not sure, just asking.  I don't remember us having any real chance to win in the late Bonifay years either.  Signings like Pat Meares and Derek Bell were, I suppose, efforts.  Sort of.  

Bishop,

I realize that Coonelly and Huntington have only been at this 20 months.

I realize those clubs had stability.

However, if Coonelly and Hungtingto are going to turn this club in to a championship caliber club, given their existing financial restrictions, I maintain they need quality and quantity from their drafts.

I do understand all the reasons why the other clubs are where they are, I understand Coonelly and Huntington have only been at this for 20 months.....

But again, to be the best you have to beat the best. Other clubs have more resources and can acquire players in ways the Pirates never will.

To catch up, they need to outperform other clubs in some aspect of the business. I'm ok if that way is through the draft but then if that is the case, then they really need to get more from their drafts than the other clubs do. In other words don't just say you are going to build a championship caliber club through the draft and farm system like you've been saying for years and years and years. Actually do it.

wake

That sounds about right on Chapman. Throw in immaturity, and an inability to throw any pitch other than his fastball, and you've got another Yankees flameout waiting to happen.

Wilver,

We are on the same page with Sano.

Wasn't countering you....just stating agreement.

Chapman is 21.  He pitched in the WBC, so his age had to be checked out beforehand.

NuHo

I'm only passively following your exchanges here with Bishop...entertaining stuff, though.  Just curious, what is your position on the team's success via the draft so far?  I would argue that last year was a success (pointing to guys like Lattimore, Grossman, and Miller...I think Pedro was a no-brainer, and I refuse to "credit" someone with getting a deal done there where they just HAD to do so).  This year is obviously an incomplete.  I agree with you, though, that they need to sign basically everyone on that "top 10" list that gets posted here.  25 draftees signed for the sake of the number 25 gets us nothing.  You need to sign a bunch of dudes, including many if not all the overslot guys.  Back the truck (or ski lift, as it were) full of cash up to their houses and let them grab with both hands.  Get these kids in the system THIS YEAR if at all possible.  Let them learn from Rinku and Dinesh!

BAB,

All I'm saying is that the PBC realized cost avoidance for the next several years when they dealt McLouth....to the tune of $10M or $12M.

I won't argue the details about when that cost avoidance is realized.

Calculating how much was avoided is complex because it depends on if they spend that savings on other talent. Sano would qualify IMO. But on the other hand if it is just used to funed annual increases to players on hand, then I say they realized the entire savings because annual increases are just part of being in this business.

However, Moss has almost 200 more at-bats than Young, and yet he still can't drive in runs or hit home runs.  Time to let Young get his at-bats in now since he has only 200 some at-bats and see where it goes.  We already know where Moss is going.  He is still on pace for 1 home run.

BAB,

I consider last seasons draft to be an improvement over the Littlefield drafts. Primarily due to Alvarez. But by the same token I think the drafts will need to get even better going forward.

I liked Alvarez, Gross, etc.....but they signed fewer of the top 20 picks than many clubs and more of the 35 - 50 picks. - The dollars were big almost entirely because of Alvarez and the # of picks appeared OK, but that was inflated because the several 35 - 50 round signings.

It was a start in the right direction but with lots of room to improve.....

The Pirates are behind the rest of MLB.

To catch up, they need to do more than just catch up, they need to do certain things better.

Those things are drafting and developing. They will need to be the very best club when it comes to productive drafts. They aren't there yet.

If the Pirates become average to slightly above average with the draft, how does that make them a winner some day given all the other advantages and available resources the other clubs have??

All,

My take on Moss, Young, Jones, Milledge, etc.....is this.

Playing time should be determined by production. Period.

If Moss wants to play more, he needs to produce.

IMO JR will give them all an equal opportunity to show their stuff, from there it is up to the player to produce to earn more playing time over others.....

At this point the whining should not be about who JR has in the lineup, it should be entirely about who is or is not producing. It's in the players hands. They will get their chances.

I have one question about the defector......

What the heck kind of name is "Chapman" for a Cuban?

Who is the next Cuban defector, Abraham Goldstein?

@ BAB

Disagree, in part, with your assessment of last year's draft as being a "success".  It was successful from the standpoint that they drafted some reaches and got them signed.  It is incomplete because not a single one of them has performed at AA or higher (Alvarez' one week stint before injury at Altoona notwithstanding).  There simply isn't enough data to claim victory; that will only come once they move up the ladder and make an impact at the MLB level.

NuHo re cost avoidance

Yeah, that's why I think it gets muddied.  You could certainly use the money on Sano.  You could just as easily use the money to sign a free agent in the off season.   But I see the point.

(Note:  That wasn't actually a joke. Contrary to all indications, there are no rules in the MLBPA's collective bargaining agreement preventing players from signing with the Pirates.)

NuHo re: building.

Yep. Agreed, pretty much entirely.  Like I said, don't sign 25 guys for the sake of signing that number of guys.

NuHo

How does your production argument work, given Moss's numbers in May and June.  He was clearly producing, and still not playing.  Can you really argue that he should have produced at a better rate than .414 over a two week span?  Because that's what he did, and it has gotten him just 8 starts against 7 benchings since mid-June.  

If you don't look at Moss as a guy who has to hit homers, you see that he's been extremely productive since early May.  And he's been one of the best outfielders in the league -- both range factor and runners thrown out bear that out.

Bishop

My point is that they successfully executed a strategy that I believe is in line with their goals: stock the system with a higher level of talent than they otherwise have, and than other teams are currently stocking with.  Of course, whether that talent succeeds is up to development, luck, injuries, and management from the organization.  But they did execute a strategy I support.

They're under way, but the rain has started again at PNC.

(I'll ammend...limited PBP)

Castillo has a 3-1.  Takes a strike, 3-2.  Grounded to Andy, throw to Adam.  1 away.

Neverett says it's a driving rain...uh-oh.  This could be a long game.

Cora has a 1-1 count.  Fouled away, 1-2.  Fly ball to shallow LF, it drops between Jack and Jones for a single.

Wright takes called strike 1.  ...and at 1:09, we're back in a rain delay.  

The tarp is going back on the field....stay tuned.

@BAB:

The Meares and Bell signings were made, in part, because of the "collapse" in 1998.  The Buccos were around 6 games below 500 at the end of Aug and proceeded to lose 22 of the next 27 games to end the season.  That was ARam's first season and Guillen's 2nd.  

Bonifay basically ended the rebuilding process and started trying to sign crappy vets to get to the 500 mark from that point on.  Meares was the first of those signings, along with Ed Sprague and, eventually trading Lieber for Brant Brown.

@ NuHo

I completely agree with you that the Pirates need to do something, anything, better than their competition in order to climb out of the hole they are in.  If it is the draft and developing their farm system, so be it.

However, as you have to agree, we need time to evaluate if their efforts are successful.  We can tell them to "just do it" (and I hope Nike doesn't read this and sue me for infringement), but how do any of us know today if Tony Sanchez or Colton Cain or the kid they drafted in the 37th round are going to pan out?  Once they get in the system and produce a set of quantifiable statistics, from Single A all the way through to MLB, then we can judge if the FO's efforts are on track.  Before that time comes, however, talking about the failings of previous regimes' and tying them to this FO, or rating this FO on an incomplete data set because their draftees are still too new, is just a waste of time.

I am back and the game is delayed--2 outs and runner on 1st--Cora who singled.

BAB,

I guess it depends on one's definition of production.

I don't consider 1 HR and 20 RBI's sufficient production for a corner outfielder given his number of ab's.

my error--1 out and runner on first

hopefully the delay will not mess up Maholm.  Redding should be fine because he hasn't pitched.

How do you start a game after a half-hour rain delay, play four minutes then call another rain delay? That's ridiculous.

NuHo,

I agree completely regarding the Pirates need to outperform other teams in the draft, and/or other areas as well.  Quantity and quality indeed.  

I would also include, and I'm sure you know this, their ability to scout and sign quality international prospects.  IMO, the increase to scouting and development budgets was as important as the increase to the draft bonus pool.  A new Dominican academy was years past due.  The Pirates used to rule Latin America.

While it invoked a few chuckles on various blogs and media outlets, I like the initiative of looking at India and other areas for new untapped talent sources.  I don't know anything about the three Taiwanese signings but I'm glad they're branching out.  

Their margin of error is much smaller than larger market clubs and they just can't afford to throw away high draft choices as has been past practice.

Salient points on your part.  

EJ,

I'll never agree with the logic that just because one GM and front office regime screwed up, made poor choices, and signed the wrong free agents that all future GM's and front offices are doomed to make the same mistake.

Apparently Frank Coonelly thinks that though, that's basically the excuse he gave DK last week to the question why doesn't the club temporarily spend more on the MLB club until the farm system gets back into shape.....Coonelly said they tried that back during the Bonifay days and it didn't work.

Well that was Bonifay and now he and Neal are supposed to be the best management team in baseball if not all of sports. Given that distinction, I don't know how they could go wrong and sign the wrong guys this time around.

@ Hostage, i hear your take and i appreciate it. I will clarify what i mean in "suitable replacements"  since that is difficult to quantify. Suitable @ SS would be a SS like Friday but further along and wont come up and get embarrased. Not suitable would be Vazquez and if they got an Izturous type  i dont think that would work. If they bring up Bixler i would have to stop watching .

        @ 2B if they put Young or Vazquez i will come up and jump off the Clemente bridge. Ford would have been acceptable if his bat didnt go into the witness protection program. They need someone at 2b who can field his position and can swing the bat, i dont care if he's a  AAAA guy when we acquire him as long as he is close. I want middle infielders who can play now and have excellent potential to do more because the dp combo is so important.

       Now @ 1B i was dissapointed Hinske was dealt because i felt he could have bridged the gap till Pedro is ready. Moss is a possibility but i actually would prefer Ryan there full time but it doesnt appear thats going to hapen.

          HOSS, Bottom line i could support watching a bunch of kids who can play but if those 3 become just another salary dump and the product on the field goes from mediocre to a flat out embarrasment I become "ANTI BOB"  

as well as "ANTI BUD" :}

Bishop,

OK, we are getting somewhere buddy.

I agree we can't make a final judgment on these two drafts, but there are strong indicators.

An average number of signed picks is not going to help the PBC catch up AND pass other clubs drafts without both quality and quantity. We need the Sanchez's and Cain's to sign and pan out and we need some others that maybe we weren't as sure would, but signed anyway and they surprised us.

I don't disagree about the strategy and importance of above slot guys, be to catch up and pass, we need even more than that.

@Hostage

I guess the question is, how much do you spend just to get back to 500 while you (re)build?

And, if you are going to (re)build anyway, why not take advantage of the losing to get the better draft position.

Hostage

No one is perfect.  Mistakes will be made so what you look for are fewer mistakes and/or less significant.  For example, Matt Morris versus Craig Monroe--no comparison in magnitude of mistake.  Hinske was a mistake that actually got something out of, also a minor mistake.

I would even argue that Monroe became a  mistake but was a good choice out ST play--just did not perform close to as well after season began.

@ JuniataKid

Totally agree. What a terrible job by the umpires and everyone involved. This game should never have started.

NuHo

Only took us a couple of hours to get here.

Out for the afternoon.  Have actual work to do.

Juanita

Well said, 1/3rd of an inning!

wormburner

Thank you very much for adding an avatar--a very fitting one for your screen name :)

The radar map looks promising, any word on when we'll have live ball again?

NutH: SIGN ABRAHAM GOLDSTEIN!!!!!!!!!! - loved that reference to Chapman.

enjoying the Bishop vs NutH discussions. I am with Bishop though on quantity vs quality. If a team has a draft of all 50 picks at slot, vs a team that stretches on a number of over-slot picks that will require bonuses of more than slot money, I do not think you can compare the 2 as apples-to-apples (or on # of picks signed ). That's too simple an evaluation method. You need to know each pick, it's relevant value, etc to determine.

The radar map looks promising, any word on when we'll have live ball again?

BABS  looks like 1:50  ET

there is thread up on the Pirates signing 3 players from Taiwan

Here is their news release on them

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../press_release.jsp

Just as a side....

Quinton Miller went to one of my rival HS's.  I didn't actually play against him, but some of my coaches said he's pretty legit.

Also, keep your eyes peeled for a kid named Sean Doolittle w/ Oakland.  He'll be up soon or he'll get dealt somewhere.  He was tearing up AAA last I saw.

Socaldonn,

You raise a great point about exporing all potential international sources of talent.

I agree, with one small twist. - I think the resources expended and spent should be more realistic than Rinku and Dinesh.

But overall, I agree.

Well Bases loaded 2 out in top of 1....looks like Paul's about to get off to a good or bad start....................................

SWEET!  Wright is back in the box and he hits one down the RF line.  DY makes what sounds like a GREAT catch in foul groun on the RF line for the out.  2 away.

Sheffield steps in and the pitch gets away from Diaz.  Cora moves to 2nd.   Count to Sheffield goes to 3-0 and he draws the 2-out walk.

Tatis is HBP on an 0-1 count.

Bases are loaded.

Church gets ahead 3-0 before Maholm gets one across, 3-1.  Grounded to 2nd, Vazquez to Adam.  Side retired.

Phew!  No score, Bucs coming to bat.

Macsinthebox,

Oh, I definitely agree with you there.

If this club has any rent-a-players as starters next year I will be Nuttinghostage x 5 in terms of my criticism.

If it is a rebuilding, go with the kids and let them grow.

No Vasquez's.....

Absolutely I am with you on this.....

"If this club has any rent-a-players as starters next year I will be Nuttinghostage x 5 in terms of my criticism."

=============================================

Now that'd be INSANITY fo' REALLLLL!!!!

AMac sends one up the RF side on an 0-2 count...it's OFF the GLOVE of the 1B-man and goes into the RF corner!  AMac is in at 2nd.

Jack bunts it up the right side, past the mound, Castilla to 1st for the out, but AMac moves to 3rd.  1 away.

DY takes, strike 1.  Next pitch is in the dirt, 1-1.  Misses again, 2-2.  And he grounds to SS...throw to 1st.  2 away.

DY's in a bit of a slump, it seems

Adam lined out to LF for the last out.

ON to the 2nd, no score.

Hate to sound like UDN here, but I can't support sacrifice bunting with your 3-4-5 hitters coming up and the fastest player on the team on second. He's scoring on any base hit anyway.  You shouldn't give up the out there.

arrgh

Another lead off double wasted

DMac

You're right on about Delwyn scuffling. He's 2 for his last 21.

@BAB-  The first inning sac bunt

It's practically indefensible.  There's no reason to give up an out there.

BAB

I agree--no reason to sac with your fastest runner on 2nd with outs-especially so early in the game.  I would rather have 3 shots at getting him home than 2.

Okay...I tried, but you all are on your own again today.  We're surprisingly busy today.

Hey Why Didn't I Get to See Roberto,

Guess what?

I got to see Roberto. - I was just a 6, 7, and 8 year old little kid in 70, 71, and 72 when I got to see him.

By that time he only played about 120 games a year and they were breaking in Richie Zisk so the first thing we did when we arrived at the park was run down the aisle to see the scoreboard lineup to see if Roberto was in the starting lineup that night.

Oh, and it was so cool when he was.....

It was almost like that about ten years later at the end of Willie's career.

You'd be watching the Pirate game and maybe Jason Thompson was playing and the game would be close and around the 7th or 8th inning you'd see Willie emerge from the dugout as a pinch-hitter. Man that was so cool.

I can't remember the Pirates having that kind of a player since Willie....one that was a great player and loved by the fans.

SWEET!  Jones just doubled off the Clemente Wall!  

JAL -- Let's see if we can do leadoff double right this time!

Andy has drawn a walk.

2 on, no one out.

YAY!  He singles up the middle!  Jones is waved around and scores and Andy is safe at 3rd!

Runners at the corners.

(I lied...I'll do what I can.  I'm addicted, I guess)