Pirates vs. Royals, 6-26-09

Danger! Danger! We're seeing consistency in the lineup!

I like it! :)

One thing I love about the Royals:

You can always count on them to trot out a Tony Pena.  Manager, shortstop, wherever.  Just give us a Tony Pena, and we're happy.

I like Mr Moss in the 5 hole, he's hitting the baseball with authority.

good god, what is going on with JR.  same players 3 days in a row?  His creativity must be gone.  

Wish I would be able to watch the game today.  I always liked Jose Guillen.  He may not be the best guy in baseball but he had a cannon for an arm and has shown that he can hit the ball.  There was one time when I was at the ball park when he was a rookie (i was probably 10/11) and he was playing around with me.  Joking around, tossing the ball around.  Finally he gave me the ball.  That memory has always stuck with me and he will always be one of my favorite players.

Moss will be rested the rest of the weekend, 3 days starting in a row, they are wearing him out.... ; }

Tonight, he goes deep (I'm gonna keep predicting that till it happens....)

Yeah, what's with this same players 3 days in a row thing?  :-)

This series against KC and the last one against Cleveland made me think about "The Plan", and how it's been to build off a model of the Indians and the only way small market teams can compete.  

I wrote an article on my own site that other Bucco fans may or may not find interesting.  I'm thinking about adding a whole section on the Buccos, so here's a link to my first effort if anyone else in interested.  

joerozsa.com/.../following-the-cleveland-model-is-that-such-a-good-idea-pirates

If so, maybe I'll see if DK will add it to the roll on the left.  Since I was the first ever registered member of this blog, maybe he'll show it some love.   :)

               Carry over from daily thread

Ian seemed to get buy and actually flourish for a couple of years on his "STUFF" which is actually pretty good. What actually brought him down over the last year+ was summed up last night by Steve Blass. "Ian needs to go down to Indianapolis and learn how to pitch"  that basically sums it up.

    I used to thoroughly enjoy watching Greg Maddux pitch in his prime, he was an absolute surgeon out there. He had 4 keys to pitching

1. Work the ball inside-outside and hit your target.

2. Change speeds

3. Keep the ball down in the zone

4. Throw strikes.

Sounds simple enough but obviously it is not. Learning how to Pitch will be Ian's key to being a successful pitcher, the "CHANNELING HIS INNER C.C" and worrying about the fans reaction to his performance just show his lack of mental toughness. Because of that trait i question that he will ever learn how to really pitch.

BaB

Danger! Danger! We're seeing consistency in the lineup!

___________________________________

Somebody once said we don't anything about managing here, well maby JR is reading the blog sites and finally getting it how to win. STARTING LINEUP.............3 DAYS IN A ROW..........What a revelation.

It is about time JR figured it out, go down with your top guns if you have to go down at all.

Now that we got this far, the next thing we need to do is teach him how to make out a batting order, Morgan is not a 2 hitter.

We need to take baby steps with this fellow.

What Blass said was ..Ian needs to throw "quality strikes"!

.When you have a 0-2 or a 1-2 count THEN you throw the "teaser".But when you start out 2-0 or 3-1 you are in trouble.

Ian was throwing too many pitches.Too many high counts.Then when the ump gets used to border line pitches and Ian doesn't get the call...he comes unglued.Snell thinks he can BRING IT", but 91-93 is not working when your offspeed pitches are 82-85.If he's going to go offspeed he needs those pitches to be 78-82.There IS NOT enough of a difference in speed.I think a lot of yinz must have noticed that.

Duke throws pitches in the mid-upper 70 range.If you've never noticed it....watch when Duke pitches.Then when he throws that 88-90, he gets 2 or 3  Ks a game.! Plus that sinker too!

PItching wise, Ian needs to talk to Ray Miller.  Work fast.  Change speeds.  Throw strikes.

Moss is actually starting 3 games in a row.......that's a surprise. Is JR starting to warm to him or is he still thrown out for today's game too (making it Varsho's lineup)?

;-)

Good luck VV in your first start!!!!

"Now that we got this far, the next thing we need to do is teach him how to make out a batting order, Morgan is not a 2 hitter."

@Leadoff,  completely agree Morgan needs to be moved, the easiest fix would be to move Jack to 2, bat the pitcher 8 and hit Morgan 9 in front of Cutch, there are other options but i like that best.

JoeBucco

Well thought out piece. I enjoyed it. Not nearly as much as I enjoyed the Naked Gun 2 1/2 reference at the top of the page...but I enjoyed it.  

Though I hope you're wrong about the trades.

Joe Bucco

The Cleveland Model

_________________________________

To some degree they are building like the Indians, but I do not believe that is an exact model that the Pirates are following, the Pirates are building more of a Twins model

The Pirates are using their Major league product to build the minor league product, the Indians have a terrible bullpen, but the Indians can hit with anyone, they are not that far away from turning everything around, their Major league personnel is superior to the Pirates right now.  

Building requires decisions as talent begins to stream in, the Pirates unlike the Indians are not going to sign marginal talent to long term deals, they are going to reload as the Twins do, example Tory Hunter leaves, they reload, Santana leaves, they reload. That is what the Pirates are going to do.

McCutchen will probably we a difficult decision for the Pirates some day, but I believe as long as they can trade and reload, anyone can and might be moved on this team.

If McClutchen proves to be a franchise player, I believe they will attempt to keep him through his productive years, but we don't have any franchise players and have not had one in 17 years.

McClouth was replaceable and he was moved, had he not been replaceable, I do not think they would have moved him.

I wonder if Brandon Moss will send me a Christmas card.  It only took about a week of me posting every conceivable stat about how he's been on fire since May 12 for him to get into the lineup three days in a row.  

BMoss, hit me up when you're out here on the Left Coast and we'll chill and discuss how to get you into the All Star game next year.

(Hint: It involves recognizing that the season starts in early April, not mid-May.)

            VV WILL HAVE SOMETHING UP HIS SLEEVE!

"What Blass said was ..Ian needs to throw "quality strikes"!"

@ MAZ, he did say that but he said "Ian needs to learn how to Pitch"  FIRST

Mac

move Jack to 2, bat the pitcher 8 and hit Morgan 9 in front of Cutch, there are other options but i like that best.

______________________________

I am not a fan of the Pitcher hitting 8th, time after time last year JR watched rallies die in the 8 hole.

His observations, well now we have Jack leading off.

What about the killed rally? he lost, I don't know how many games before he got it.

I don't know exactly how old baseball is, but other than LaRussa, no one else has been able to pull off the pitcher hitting 8th.

I believe he gets away with it because he has Pujols, he gets more at bats and doesn't have to hit him leadoff or 2nd.

I thought I liked Varsho(even though he's an ex Cub) until someone here said he was the "genuis' that came up with the no triples defense.He did all right last night after Casper(the friendly ghost.....err ..uh..friendly manager)got chucked out to the clubhouse runway.

BAB- I went through the same thing protecting Moss earlier.Thanks for sticking up for BMo.

New thread up.

maz

Absolutely.  It takes a village to coach the Pirates.

I like this line up b/c Jack seems to be on base when AMac comes to bat.It CAN'T be that bad of an order....because McCutchen wouldn't have 18 RBI in 20 games.  There were many complaints here not long ago about all the line up and batting order changes...let's stick with this one for a while.Not saying it's the best, but let's try it for a while.

Any chance Primanti Brothers could name a sammich after Cutch?

Biz

Tonight, he goes deep (I'm gonna keep predicting that till it happens....)

--------------------------------------------------------------

If you keep saying this, JR is going to wake up and find out that he put Moss in the lineup 3 games in a row, Shooooooooooooooo, (JR doesn't know he is there). A home run might ruin it all, the crowd will roar, JR will look up and see 44 running around the bases and say, what is he doing out there, OOPs. Wait until tomorrow.

Maz

I thought I liked Varsho(even though he's an ex Cub) until someone here said he was the "genuis' that came up with the no triples defense.He did all right last night after Casper(the friendly ghost.....err ..uh..friendly manager)got chucked out to the clubhouse runway.

_______________________________

I said he designed the no triple defense, because he did, that does not mean he can't do anything just like JR takes a long time to get things, JR handles pitcher situations much better than he did last year, every day is a learning experience for us all, we must remember that.

Anti-negativity advice for Ian.  The biggest thing you can learn at Indianapolis is how to win!  Sucking it up after one of your team mates makes an error could be a good first lesson.  If Shelby Ford boots one tell him "Dont worry Ford, I've got your back, and I'll strike out the next #2 after a loss you say "batter on an inside fastball with an 0-2 count."  Lesson #2 after a 1-0 loss you say "If I would have pitched a litter better they wouldn't have got that run, and my guys would have found a way to win". Win some close ones.  You'ld be surprised how positive the fans will be.  What are the chances you'll ever hear those words from Ian?

Me either.

Stuart

Bay-Too bad the Clarks aren't playing in the area.

Leadoff-I think JR is tired of watching Delwyn circle the ball.DY needs a ton of practice on defense.Sometimes he looks afraid or even lost and is praying the ball does not come in his direction.Also Meche is a righty and that helps BMo.

@Joe Bucco---<<Your blog>>

Please send your request to the Keeper of the Links...JAL. He is out for the weekend but should return on Monday. If you are in a hurry please send to me @ billabraham2004@yahoo.com I will see that he gets the link, does the necessary due diligence and thenm respond if he has any questions.  

Good thinking Leadoff, me bad, again

But Baywatch is sitting over the Clemente wall, so you just never know....

Maybe since everyone is so high on the "power-hitting" Brandon Moss, we can trade him at the deadline for something that resembles a major leaguer.

I like the idea of batting Morgan 9th though, however I wouldn't put someone like Wilson who can barely hit the ball in the 2 spot.

Yawn. Same old nonsense from Wakerider.

Meanwhile, Moss just keeps hitting (7 for his last 12) and getting on base (9 of his last 14 plate appearances).  

And all Jack has done is hit .284 this year. Pretty good for someone who can barely hit the ball.  He does have 1141 career hits and a Silver Slugger award to his credit.  Sounds like more than just barely hitting to me.

Yep, and look how Moss and Wilson have helped us, dead last in the division. You'd think we'd be much higher with all the numbers Moss is putting up with his bat...

I'm looking for guys who can bring in some runs, because usually the teams that score more runs usually win the game...

The Pirates don't need any more slap hitters in their lineup.  Morgan and McCutch are worth it because of all of their other abilities.  We do not need a low-average slap hitter like Moss.  The only reason WIlson is in the majors is because he is a Pirate.  He would never have made it with any other team.  Not even the formerly lowly Rays would even take him.

wake

By your logic, Jason Bay didn't help us either, since we didn't win with him.  Zach Greinke isn't helping Kansas City, because they're in last.  Et cetera.  

Moss has been superb for six weeks.

Wilson is at least average with the bat, and superb with the glove.

Both players help us a lot.  We're not a good team, but we're getting there. Both players are helping us to get there.

wake

Again, Moss is neither a slap hitter nor does he have a low average.  

Wilson is a career .270 hitter who plays incredible defense.  He would play for every team in the league, and start for several.  He would have started for almost every team in the league in 2004.  

@Wake

              Jack Wilson is an outstanding SS,  Your statement about the only reason Jack is a major leaguer is because he is a Pirate is quite possibly the most outrageous statement i have read on this blog.

wake

"Again, Moss is neither a slap hitter nor does he have a low average. "

BaB's i would like to second that

BABs, Macs

Although not needed I would third that

Wake,

I am not sure what the wonderful things Morgan brings to the team? for my part, I'd drop him out of the lineup, Put Moss in Left and bring up Garret Jones ( of course that would involve removing someone from gthe 40man roster, so I don't expect to see that 'til someone is traded. I am interested in what value you think Morgan brings besides speed in the outfeild ) but not necessarily great D). Also, do you think he should be batting second?

Jack is actually pretty good. Certainly a better hitter and fielder than anyone we have to replace him.  I acn think of at least 10 tems off the top of my head where he would start.

Wake,

I echo the sentiments of Nutting Nation.

Jack Wilson is one of the top fielding shortstops in the league and would make all 30 major league clubs and would start for half to three quarters of them.

I agree he is not a great hitter but so many people these days have absolutely no concept how important a good fielding shortstop like Wilson is to a club and it's pitching staff.

Oohhh...They're wearing Homestead Gray's throwback uni's tonight.  Very cool!

DMac

Are the Royals wearing throwback unis too? They have some of the coolest ones.

Also, is PBP happening here? (*crosses fingers hopefully*)

Ummm...I was thinking though...scary thought on a Friday evening, I know, but who's coming off the 40-man roster for Vasquez to be added on?

No Wilson would not make any other teams, outside being a desperate stop-gap.  That is why when the Pirates wanted to move him the past few years, no one would give up anything for him.  What Wilson can do with the glove, hundreds of players can do.  As for Moss, if he isn't a slap hitter, where are all these home runs at?  and what is with this .250 career batting average?  Usually power guys have more than one homer by July...

I thought there was 1 space on the 40 man after Monroe was dumped?

Considering the Red Sox, the best team in the league, have nothing close to resembling a SS,only consider Jack Wilson a backup.  They look like theyre struggling without a good SS.  The Yankees don't exaclty have a wonder with the glove at SS either, but he stays because he can hit.

BaB...I haven't seen the Royals unis yet, but I'll keep you posted.

PBP will be here...since the post counts are low I like to keep it in the lineup posting.  :-)

"What Wilson can do with the glove, hundreds of players can do."

Second most assinine comment I've seen on this board today only behind the hilarious argument that Morgan is a better overall player than Jason Bay.

@Juan Pizarro...aahhhhh...this is true.  I forgot about that.  Thanks!

wake

That's funny. The Tigers wouldn't give anything for Wilson. You know, other than Jair Jurrjens, a top 10 pitching prospect at the time.  

If you honestly don't understand that there are types of hitters who do not hit homeruns and also are not slap hitters, I think you should watch more baseball.  

Here's a partial list of non-slap hitters ON THE PIRATES that don't hit homeruns...

Andrew McCutchen

Freddy Sanchez (led the league in doubles in 2006)

Brandon Moss

Andy LaRoche

These are guys who drive the ball gap to gap, and hit a lot of doubles.  Not slap hitters by any stretch of the imagination.

NuHo

Maybe he meant a hundred players ever?  I guess that may still not be accurate...

What is so special about Wilson?  There are many players who are more athletic and have more range than WIlson.  And if there are SS that arent as talented with the glove, they are probably 100 times better with the bat.  I guarantee the Pirates don't make the playoffs with Wilson or Moss.

I mean, I'm discounting all the division titles and pennants Jack Wilson has led us to...especially winning seasons.

Everyone here just has to stop looking through Pirate's glasses and see Jack as a below average player with a decent glove.  No one else outside of Pirate fans have ever heard of him let alone think he's great.

The Royals are wearing Monarchs Uni's.

And the first pitch is a strike to David DeJesus.  Misses, 1-1.  Misses again, 2-1.  Fouled away and the count is 2-2.  And he looks at a called strike 3 on the inside corner.  1 away.

Maier fouls the first pitch away, 0-1.  Fouled away again, 0-2.  Grounded to Freddy, throw to Adam.  2 away.

Butler steps gets ahead quickly, 2-0.  Misses again, 3-0.  Takes and it's strike 1.  And he draws the 2-out walk.

Guillen takes a called strike, 0-1.  Swings and misses, 0-2. Nice!  He takes and it's a called strike 3!  Side retired.

BAB,

You are right, a hundred players ever would at least be a reasonable argument.

Currently is just a laughable proposition.

Good old Jerry Crawford umping third tonight.

I still remember the night Bill Madlock flicked Crawfords nose with his glove during an argument and got suspended for 10 games or so.

wake

If you don't know what is so special about him, I would direct you to the stretch in late April when Jack was hurt.  The defense suffered. The pitchers suffered. Even the offense suffered.

He is one of the best bunters in the league.  He is an average hitter.  (No one in history has ever been 100 times better than him at hitting, that I guarantee.)

He has the most reliable glove in the league, and his range is very near the best, if not the best.  The key is that he makes almost every single play that he gets to. A lot of guys do not -- setting Jack apart.

Son of UDN?

1) If no one outside of Pirates fans knew who Jack Wilson was, he would not be voted top 3 in Gold Glove voting every year, nor would teams be calling to try to acquire him and offering prospects like Jurrjens.

2) Whether people have heard of someone is not a very reliable metric for determining the value of the person.

AMac steps in and takes ball 1.  Takes again and it's in there for strike 1...1-1 count.  Catches the outside corner, 1-2 count...that was a high strike. Tapped to 2nd, throw to 1st.  1 away.

Nyjer takes a called strike 1.  Misses, 1-1 count.  Grounded to the right side, Buckner fields and steps on the bag for the out.  2 away.

Freddy takes high, ball 1.  Down and away, 2-0.  Fouled away, 2-1 count.  Low, 3-1.  He takes and thinks it's a ball, but it's a called strike, 3-2 count.  WAY outside for ball 4.  So there.  ;-)

Adam takes a strike, 0-1.  Inside, 1-1 count.  Fly ball deep to R-CF...Maier is able to find it in the sun and make the catch at the track for the out.

After 1, no score...

uglyken

Nah. UDN liked Jack, if I recall.  Also, UDN brought facts and stats to the table.  This guy just says stuff.

And you gets think I'm bad.......

Food for thought re: NuHo's hopes of balancing the lineup

Moss (lefty) is hitting .313 at home with an .864 OPS.  (.238/.590 on the road)  And that's with 1 HR on the season.  So the park obviously "suits his eye" in ways other than just the short porch.

BaB

UDN completely and utterly despised JW; a complete hotdog in his eyes.

I'm sure the lack of talent on the Pirates had nothing to do with us being terrible. I'm sure if Jack was one of the top 15 SS in the league, he would not be a Pirate because a contender would realize the important of having a Jack Wilson.  However, almost every team has a guy like Wilson who is just a glove guy, and that is why he's been on 9 straight losing teams.

this may have been posted, but some bad news for the X Man (out possibly this year and next?)

link: msn.foxsports.com/.../Report:-Nady-will-miss-rest-of-season

So I thought Ian got sent down...

ken

That's right. Now I recall.

Teahen walked to lead off the 2nd.

Callaspo doubled to RF on an 0-1 count.  Teahen scored.  Crap.  

Olivo has doubled down the LF line on a 2-2 count.  Callaspo scores.  Dammit.  >:(

Pena takes ball 1.  Takes ball 2...2-0 count.  Takes a called strike, 2-1.  Misses, 3-1.  Bounced to SS...They get Olivo off the bag at 2nd, Jack to Andy to Freddy, who makes the tag, then races to 2nd to get Pena there.  Odd DP, but I'll take it.

Meche has a 2-2 count.  And he swings and misses for strike 3.

They score 2...2-0 Royals.

Hostage  << And you gets think I'm bad......>>

The gets may think your bad, but some of the gents here think that you’re almost OK.

I just use logic and am realistic about the Pirates, everybody here is just a Pirates home-er who think that these players are great and should all be all-stars.  There are reasons these guys are Pirates and not in the majors with other teams.

Ken,

You're a nice get.

;-)

Wake,

OK, one thing about Jack Wilson I will agree with.

While I think you are all wet regarding his fielding ability, I do think he has a strong resemblance to the Ferengi.

Moss leads off and takes, ball 1.  Takes a called strike, 1-1.  Misses, 2-1.  Swings and misses, 2-2 count.  Grounder to SS, throw to 1st.  1 away.

Andy takes, ball 1.  Fouled away, 1-1.  Swings and misses, 1-2.  Misses, 2-2.  Misses again, 3-2 .  And he draws the walk.

Jaramillo takes a called strike, 0-1.  Misses, 1-1.  Throw to 1st.  Misses, 2-1.  Bounced to 2nd, Andy was going, so he's safe at 1st, Jaramillo is thrown out at 1st.  2 away.

Jack takes a called strike, 0-1.  Throw to 2nd...Andy back standing.  Grounded to SS...Pena falls down but is able to field and throw to 1st to get Jack.  Side retired.

We head to the 3rd, 2-0 K.C.

First pitch to DeJesus misses, ball 1.  Fly ball to LF...Nyjer, actually playing LF, comes over and makes the catch.  1 away.

Maier takes, strike 1.  Fouled away, 0-2.  Misses, 1-2.  And he swings and misses for strike 3.  2 away.

Butler singls up the middle on the first pitch.

Guillen pops the first pitch up in foul territory down the 1B side...Adam makes the catch in foul ground for the 3rd out.

Which one is Jack Wilson?

media.comicvine.com/.../360354-136400-ferengi_large.jpg

llnw.image.cbslocal.com/.../images_sizedimage_205160655.jpg

@Wakerider, i have no idea why i am even entertaining this lunacy but your statements are like a train wreck, i cant help but look.

Jack is a career .270 hitter, hitting .284 this year in the 8 hole with zero protection. He has a 200 hit year and has hit in the clutch consistently.

His glove is one of the most respected @ ss in the game, that is not opinion it is fact.

As it relates to why they have not traded him, thats one thing the FO has done right so far guaranteed.

Vasquez leads off and takes ball 1.  Looks at a called strike, 0-1.  Takes and it's another called strike, 1-2 count.  And he swings and foul tips it into the Catchers' mitt for strike 3.  1 away.

Amac takes a strike, on the outside corner, 0-1.  WHOA!  Next pitch is upstairs and gets him on the shoulder.  So, he takes 1st.

Nyjer steps in and Meche throws to 1st.  First pitch to Nyjer is low, ball 1.  Fly ball to RF...OMG!  It's over the Clemente wall!  Holey Moley!  Nyjer just tied it up!

Get out of here.....are you kidding me?  Nyjer...

Look at that, Morgan is even showing more power than Moss.  I wonder if Duke will have more homer's than Moss before the season is over.  He was ahead of Moss in RBI's for a while this year.

I'm sure they are happy, there are plenty of teams who don't mind winning without Wilson, considering their SS is probably better.

Freddy takes, ball 1.  Takes upstairs, 2-0.  Swings and misses, 2-1.  Misses, 3-1.  And he shoots a single up the middle.  

Hostage, macs, BaB, et al...I gave up last night with WakeRider...

1 on, 1 away.

Adam takes inside, 1-0.  Takes and this one catches the inside of the plate, 1-1.  Fouled away, 1-2.  Check-swing strike, and Adam's down on strikes.  2 away.

Moss steps in and they throw to 1st.  First pitch to Brandon and he swings and misses, 0-1.  Fly ball to RF and Guillen gets there to make the catch for the 3rd out.

But a long ball by Nyjer ties it at 2, heading to the 4th.  

Nyjer goes to Morgantown.

First time through the order:

Gorkys singled up the middle.

Tabata grounded into an inning-ending dp.

Pedro strikes out.

Moskos through 2: 2 IP, 1 ER, 2 H, 3 K

Indy is in delay.

Lynchburg getting CRUSHED 7-0, Chase D'Arnaud 0-2, HBP.

State College up 4-0 after this first inning:

Brock Holt singles on a line drive to left fielder Bradley Glenn.

Andy Vasquez singles on a line drive to left fielder Bradley Glenn. Brock Holt to 2nd.

Justin Byler triples (1) on a fly ball to right fielder Welinton Ramirez. Brock Holt scores. Andy Vasquez scores.

Kyle Morgan doubles (2) on a ground ball to left fielder Bradley Glenn. Justin Byler scores.

David Rubinstein singles on a line drive to right fielder Welinton Ramirez. Kyle Morgan scores. David Rubinstein out at 2nd, right fielder Welinton Ramirez to shortstop Jimmy Gonzalez.

Craig Parry grounds out, shortstop Jimmy Gonzalez to first baseman Lance Durham.

Jose Hernandez called out on strikes.

Holt has a walk in the second.

Robbie Grossman and Quincy Lattimore have homeruns for West Virginia, who leads 5-1.

Everyone who is telling me how great Wilson is, just think of it as if you weren't a Pirates fan.  Wilson, aside from one decent year, that netted us a 100 loss season I think, is not a good hitter.  I've never seen him do anything clutch more than once or twice every 162 games.  There are plenty of players that can field like him and have more athletic ability and also have a bat.

Wake:  

You can talk all you want, but where are your numbers?  Jack  has the 6th best avg of NL short stops with at least 150 ABs. His OBP is 8th in the same group. Hardly awful.

As far as defense, if you eyes and Gold Glove votes do not convince you, John Dewan of The Fielding Bible rated him as the third-best defensive shortstop in the game.

Teahen leads off and fouls the first pitch away, 0-1.  Takes ball 1...1-1 count.  Grounded to Freddy, throw to Adam.  1 away.

Callaspo takes ball 1.  Takes again, 2-0.  Fouled away, 2-1.  Fly ball...CF...AMac gets there and makes the catch.  2 away.

Olivo takes, ball 1.  Fouled away, 1-1.  Misses, 2-1.  Fouled away, 2-2.  Grounde to 3rd, Andy to Adam.  Side retired.

DMac

You've set a good example. I'm falling in line behind you.  I shouldn't have gotten into it at all, but when Moss comes up...well...you know how I get. ;-)

I think Wake belongs to the "Everyone else is wrong, and I am right" school of thought.....

I don't need numbers.  I don't remember Jack Wilson getting any golden gloves either.  I just know baseball, and I realize Jack Wilson is a career loser even though it is not his fault he lacks the skills other players have.  He loves to play in Pittsburgh because he would not have a chance anywhere else. Maybe a bullpen catcher to come out and play catch in between innings.  There are 25-26 SS's in baseball that would be an upgrade over Jack Wilson.  

Andy leads off and fouls the first pitch to the 1B side...Butler gets there and makes the catch.  1 away.

Jaramillo takes, ball 1.  Swings and misses, 1-1.  Takes a strike, 1-2.  Misses, upstairs, 2-2.  Misses, 3-2.  Fouled away,.  WOOOHOOO!  JHammer hammers one into the Clemente Seats!  

Maybe Jaramillo can play some RF.  He's definately be an upgrade over Moss.

It's a power surge....JJ goes deep

Haha, no I'm not the only one who is right, there are lots of other people who aren't homers than don't think anything of Wilson either.  I'm just realistic and give players their due based on their talent and what they do for the team.

Jack hits the first pitch to CF...Maier makes the catch.  2 away.

Vasquez takes a called strike, 0-1.  Fouled away, 0-2.  Swinging strike, it's in the dirt and Olivo has to throw him out at 1st to complete the K.  That's 3.

BaB...I was VERY frustrated with it last night.  I figure this is one of those instances where everything I said was going to be countered...time to let it go.  :-)

WE go to the 5th, 3-2 Pirates.  YAY!

I used to go to school in New York.  Lots of baseball fans up there.  Most of them don't even know who Jack Wilson is, and the ones who do agree that Jack Wilson is nothing special and pretty much just average.  

"There are plenty of players that can field like him and have more athletic ability and also have a bat."

@Wake,  ok  you say there are plenty

Name 10

I love how our "backup" catcher has 3X as many home runs as our "starting" RF.  This is why the Pirates need to keep on rebuilding.

BAB,

Listening to all the minor league networks or just saw the stats?

DMac

Well, if I had known he disagreed with you, I wouldn't have even tried.  I mean, sure, sometimes someone can think I'm wrong. But for someone to think that both you and I are wrong?  That's just silly.

Good evening, all!

Our Buccos are looking good tonight. Even Vasquez, with the exception of about three hitters, looks pretty solid.

Anyone else notice Vasquez talking to himself on the mound?? Probably keeping himself collected.

I hope Ian Snell is watching...

Isn't Bay just above the Clemente wall? The Pirates better think about paying him to stay here, we don't hit too many HR's, he got 2 already. Our good luck charm is here.

@Wake:  I don't need numbers.

That is all I need to know about you.  I won't confuse you with any more facts.

Pena fouls the first pitch off, 0-1.  Fouled off again, 0-2.  Just misses the outside corner, 1-2.  Swings and just gets a piece of it, count stays 1-2.  Nice Play!  Grounded on the INF grass to the left side, Vasquez fields, bare-hands it and throws to Adam to get Pena at 1st.  SWEET!  1 away.

Mech takes a called strike, 0-1.  Low and away, 1-1 count.  Lined to Freddy at 2nd.  2 away.

DeJesus takes one on the outside corner for strike 1.  Outside, 1-1.  Fouled away, 1-2.  Fouled away.  Fouled away again, still 1-2 count.  In the dirt and the count evens at 2.  Bounced to SS...Jack to Adam and that retires the side.

Good thing Virgil ran out that strikeout - otherwise they would have to DFA him and recall Snell.

Wake,

"Haha, no I'm not the only one who is right, there are lots of other people who aren't homers"

Dude you have no idea who you are talking to. - No one is more critical of the Pittsburgh Pirates than me. Your foolish comments about Wilson aside, you pale in comparison to me. If this were the Olympics, I would be the Gold Medalist when it comes to criticizing the Pirates. Just ask anyone here.

You are a little leaguer compared to me.

If Jack was bad, I'd be all over it.

You're just flat out wrong.

Hanley Ramirez, Rollins, Alexi Ramirez, Reyes, Theriot, S. Drew, Guzman, Bartlett, Tulowitzki, Scutaro.

And that's leaving off the good hitting SS who aren't bad with the gloves either.

WhyStan

Just ran through the minorleaguebaseball.com scoreboards. No radio broadcasts at work here on the left coast.

@NH

That's the funniest thing I've heard all day!

Mostly it's funny because it's true :)

NuHo

Awarding yourself a gold medal?  And this from the guy who rails against free passes and scholarships... ;-)

I try to stick up for the Pirates as much as anyone, they have some pieces.  However, Wilson is not one of them, and hes is not all that great.  The only reason people here think he is good is because he plays for the Pirates and is fan friendly.  I'm sure we couldn't have done any worse the past 10 years with another SS.

wow phantom tag is right, & 2 strait games with JR out of the dugout, who lit a fire under his butt, I like it...

Looks like somebody didn't get an autograph.  Don't worry, you'll still get to run the bases on Sunday.

Cullen & BAB,

It's not bragging when it's true.

;-)

AMac leads off and takes, ball 1.  Shows bunt but pulls it back, it's outside, 2-0.  Takes and it's low, ball 3.  And it's ball 4...leadoff walk.  

Nyjer comes to the plate.  Meche throws to 1st.  Shows bunt, pulls back and it's inside, 1-0.  AMac goes, the pitch is a strike and dropped by Olivo, so no throw and AMac has SB #4.  SWEET!   And AMac doesn't need a tailhook.  :-)  1-1 count.  Misses, 2-1.  Throw to 2nd.  Drops the bunt down the 3B line.  Teahen fields and CAN'T get Nyjmo at 1st!   NICE!

Runners at the corners, no one out.

Freddy steps in and Meche does the whole "Fake to 3rd, look to 1st" thing.  First pitch to Freddy is fouled away, 0-1.  Throw to 1st and it's close, but Nyjer just gets back.  Misses high, 1-1 count.  Fly ball to CF...Maier makes the catch.  AMac tags and scores, but Nyjer holds at 1st.  Sac-Fly RBI for Freddy.

1 on, 1 away.

Adam steps in and they pitch out, 1-0 count.  Nyjer goes, the pitch is low and the throw is late, but the ump calls him out.  WTH?  No overslide this time...the throw was bounced, but the tag was not made before Nyjer touched the bag. Heck, it doesn't look like the tag touched him at all!  JR is out and arguing the call, btw.   Crap.  2-0 count to Adam.  Swings and misses, 2-1.  Outside, 3-1.  Adam lines a single to RF.

Moss fouls the first pitch away, 0-1.  Misses, 1-1.  Up and away, 2-1.  Grounded to 2nd, throw to 1st.  And that's the 3rd out.

Bucs up by 2...4-2 as we go to the 6th.

" If this were the Olympics, I would be the Gold Medalist when it comes to criticizing the Pirates. Just ask anyone here."

@Wakey

He's got you there, you need to pack a lunch and bring some friends if you would hope to hang with NU HO and have your friends bring some facts since you cant seem to supply any.

BaB...LOL...that's not what I meant. I can be wrong. I often am.

Is it me, or do we hope Moss has a Mark Whitten-esque (4 HRs) just to keep his "he can't hit homers" detractors at Bay.

Speaking of Bay, I hope he liked Jhammer's homer.  I would think it would be close to him.

JR out of the dugout 2 nights in a row, same lineup 3 days in a row.

Anyone remember invasion of the body snatchers?

Can Cutch keep the hitting streak alive, maybe just one more at-bat?

Hostage  << Gold Medalist >>

The judjes do tend to grade high for style, and you have that unique flair.....

Moreover, who else has a key metric named after themselves....ala the NuHo-line?

VASQUEZ IS PITCHING LIKE PASQAL PEREZ!!

Okay all, I'm out. Enjoy BayStock 2009.

Ken,

Exactly. - Not only am I consistent and persistent, but also highly imaginative.

If criticizing the Pirates was a body building contest, I would be Mr. Universe.

You can't stop NuttingHostage, you can only hope to contain him.

;-)

Ken,

"ala the NuHo-line?"

I am a legend in my own time.

Compared to my blanket of negativity, Wake is packing a hanky.

Maier leads off.  Bunts foul, 0-1.  Foul tip, 0-2.  Foul tipped and held, strike 3.  1 away.

Butler takes called strike 1.  Called strike, 0-2.  And he swings and misses, strike 3.  2 away.

Guillen takes a called strike, 0-1.  Misses low and away, 1-1.  Misses outside, 2-1.  SWING and miss, 2-2.  Down and away, 3-2.  Fouled away.  Fouled off again. Fly ball to the left side, Nyjer gives chase, but it's in the seats. Fly ball to LF, Nyjer goes back but can't amke the catch and Guillen is in at 2nd.

Teahen takes a called strike, 0-1.  Low, ball 1...1-1 count.  Fouled off, 1-2.  Fouled off again. Throw to 2nd, but Guillen gets back.  Fouled off again.  Jaramillo goes out to the mound. And he SWINGS and misses, strike 3!  Side retired.

Yep. Bay is in the Clemente seats...front row, I think he said.

NuHo.

The best ones do not toot their own horns... don't be great, be legendary...

Jarmillo is cementing his role as the backup catcher on this team, what a bad break for Diaz, his worst nightmare, he will have to go to Indy and start catching Snell again.

"You can't stop NuttingHostage, you can only hope to contain him"

Not a big fan of persons who refer to themselves in the 3rd person. Think Chad "OchoCinco" and T.O...

That's not a good category for you...

Hostage definitely gets a "10" for style points in his Pirate criticism.  :-)

I'm wrong too sometimes.  This is just not one of those times.  He just isn't that good.  He would not make many other teams, and that is the reason he is on the Pirates, and he is one of the reasons the Pirates have been a terrible team while he was here.  He has a decent glove, but they can find someone else who can hit and has a decent glove as well.  Defense is overrated.  It doesn't matter how good your defense is if you are hitting balls into the gaps and over the wall driving in runs.

@Bay

Check out the Pirates Baseball Club seats if you get a chance.  That's the only place I sit when I am in town.  Can't beat 'em!

Wow! Another homer! Thats 3 for the night... this time its Jack!

Dmac,

Thank you. - I try.

Uncle Dirt Nap gives me a run for my money but in all modesty he is no where near as colorful or imaginative as I.

;-)

Juan Cruz is on the mound for the Royals.

Andy takes ball 1.  Grounded foul, down the LF line.  Fly ball to LF...DeJesus makes the catch 1 away.

Jaramillo takes a called strike, 0-1.  Takes low, 1-1 count.  Fouled away, 1-2 count.  Swing and a miss, strike 3.  2 away.

Jack misses the bunt attempt, 0-1.  Down and away, 1-1.  WOOHOOO!  A Jack-JACK!  

No comment.......

;-)

Wilson is the greatest SS of all-time! LOL...

Looks like Jack just hit one into the gap behind the left field wall.....drove in a run, too.

NuttingHostage = Rickey Henderson

"I am the greatest of all-time"

I love it...

NuttingHostage = Rickey Henderson

"I am the greatest of all-time"

I love it...

Hey Ken,

Just a remark on your avatar tonight.....

I'm a huge "Rocky" fan. I watched the final, "Rocky Balboa" on FX twice last night.

He did such a great job with that one closing out the series. He went back to the roots of the original with Spider Rico, Little Marie, etc.

Just a terrific movie.

I was hoping JR would get tossed for the 2nd night in a row!  He said on the pregame show that when he was playing sometimes when a manager got thrown out it motivated the team.  Other times, he said, the players wondered why the manager would do that.

Hinske is PH-ing for Vasquez.  He takes, ball 1.  Swings and misses, 1-1.  Takes low, just misses, 2-1.  Catches the inside corner, 2-2 count.  Outside, 3-2 count.  Fly ball to RF>..Guillen comes in and makes the catch for the 3rd out.

But Jack hits another long ball...and it's 5-2 Bucs!  WOOHOO!

Hostage

The King of Sting....The Master of Disaster….

Steph,

Come the day Bob Nutting sells the club I can envision myself standing in the center of the diamond at PNC Park in front of a sell-out crowd giving a speech......

"Tonight......(echo)......

"I consider myself the luckiest man on the face of the earth......"  (echo).

Oh, and everything is in black and white for some reason.

;-)

wake rider..and I know I'm going to hate myself for getting back into this but...IN YOUR OPINION, Jack isn't that good, and defense isn't that important.  That's subjective.

DMac & Cheese -

>>Hostage definitely gets a "10" for style points in his Pirate criticism.<<

Didn't you mean: "...definitely GENTS a 10..."

This assumes you were paying attention earlier to his typo.

NH - that is priceless!

Steven Jackson is now pitching for the Pirates.

Callaspo leads off and flies out to RF on an 0-2 count.  1 away.

Olivo grounds the first pitch to Andy, throw to Adam, 2 away.

Pena takes outside, ball 1.  Misses inside, 2-0.  Misses outside, 3-0.  Strike at the knees, 3-1.  Takes strike 2 and the count goes full, 3-2.  And he's rung up on an inside strike!  Side retired.

NuHos -

Re your Lou Gehrig moment on the field and other gems from tonight:

You always seem to fire up in rare form on the Friday nights when I am in Pittsburgh.

Ken,

The Count of Monte Fisto, the Dancing Destroyer.....

Funny story, my kid sister was like 6 when Rocky III came out and the next day she asked me who that "Pollo Creep" guy was. - It was so cute.

Yeah it is an opinion, but at the end of the day, Jack Wilson is one of the biggest losers in baseball, and isn't even a good player on a bad team.  I'm just interested in the Pirates being good in 2 or 3 years.  Wilson won't help or be apart of that.

Wake

I've been reading your argument and it just doesn't fly.  Jack Wilson is Jack Wilson.  You're gonna get a .270 hitter.  Gonna hit 8-10 homers a year.  Make smart plays on the base paths (see last night).  And make web gems on a nightly basis.  You say that defense is overrated?  I bet our pitchers just hate when we lead the league in double plays turned every year.  The one constant... Jack Wilson.  He did it with Warren Morris, Jose Castillo, and now Freddy.  Obviously he isn't one of the upper echelon SS's in the game because he doesn't hit the homers.  But up until recently teams weren't expecting power from that position.  I know growing up the best glove on the team played SS because that is where most balls are hit.  The SS is there for his glove and Jack has a great glove.  He makes it easier for everyone else on the team because he can get to so many balls.

So please stop these shenanigans and cheer on Jack

Serious question: Do hit by pitches, reach base on an error, and reach base on a passed ball (strikeout) count in calculating OBP?

Ken,

"Stallion you have to remember, you fight great, but I'm a great fighter."

I still can't believe the Pirates gave up on Jose Guillen.  Giving him away was one of those things that keeps setting back the Pirates years in their rebuilding.  

AMac leads off and takes a called strike 1.  Swings and misses, 0-2.  And he goes down swinging.  1 away.

Nyjer takes a called strike, 0-1.  Fouled away, 0-2.  Misses, 1-2.  Misses, 2-2.  Fly ball, RF>..Guillen makes the catch.  2 away.

Freddy takes ball 1.  Takes a called strike, 1-1.  Fly ball to RF and Guillen makes the catch for the 3rd out.

That's the 1st time the Bucs went down in order.

5-2 Pirates, heading to the 8th.

G-man,

I suppose it has something to do with kicking back and being in a great mood on a Friday night.....

Srsly though, tell me that speech would not be just so appropriate in that circumstance......

;-)

The SS position has changed.  Players are faster and more athletic than Jack, and obviously hit more homers and drive in more runs with a better batting average.  There are players who have his range and defense that are better hitters.  Wilson might have been great in the 60's.  But now, he's holding the Pirates back.  If they would have some prospects in the past, he would have been gone long ago.

Hostage  << "Rocky Balboa" on FX >>

I have not seen that yet.....I'll definitely catch it next time around.

I like II the best, but they're all inspirational.

Bloomquist is PH-ing for Cruz and he takes low and away, ball 1.  Takes a strike on the inside, 1-1.  Grounded to the left side, Andy dives but it gets by him BUT JACK is there to make the play, and throw back across and get Bloomquist at 1st.  1 away.

Yeah, Jack is an awful SS and defense is definitely not important.  

JR out to the mound for a pitching change.  

Jack takes another hit away. I don't care what wake says having a good defensive SS is key and to call Jack a loser is just a cop out. I for one hope the pirates figure out a way to re-sign him even if he isn't part of the future in 3 years.

Jack is butter, you would have to know nothing about baseball to even think this guy isn't a terrific fielder, like Mcclouth was mired in obscurity here, in Atlanta he is getting his recoqnition.

Put Jack on Boston's team and he would be getting star billing.

Ken,

If you liked I and II, you will love "Rocky Balboa".

One of my favorite quotes from II was when Rocky was trying to film a cologne commercial and couldn't read the cue cards properly.....

Rocky: "If you want to smeel mainly....."

Director: "CUT!"

@ken

I really like IV the best personally but the first two are really good.

Yea....that guy's got a lot of names...

*****HEY DMAC******

I heard a song today on 1250 ESPN today and thought of you.....

It was sung to the tune of, and just like "Gimme that filet o fish" song but the lyrics were....

Gimme that cup.

Gimme that Stanley Cup

................

It was just hilarious.

Burnett on the hill now....

DeJesus has a 1-1 count.  Pitch outside and in the dirt, 2-1 count.  Swung on and foul tipped, 2-2.  Lined to LF...Nyjer gets there and makes the catch for the out.  2 away.

Brayan Pena is PH-ing for Mayer.  Fouls the fist one off, 0-1.  Takes low, ball 1.  Up and in, ball 2, 2-1.  He strokes one to the right side...it gets by Adam.  Pena motors to 2nd and Moss throws a strike to 2nd to get him and retire the side!  SWEET!

Yeah...another instance where good defense isn't important and Moss is a bad player.

(Those of you who know me...I hope you're getting the sarcasm there.  ;-)  )

Oh what a joy to watch the first string play, why is this so hard for JR to comprehend.

G-Man:

From www.baseball-reference.com/.../OBP

On Base Percentage (aka OBP, On Base Average, OBA) is a measure of how often a batter reaches base. It is approximately equal to Times on Base/Plate appearances.

The full formula is OBP = (Hits + Walks + Hit by Pitch) / (At Bats + Walks + Hit by Pitch + Sacrifice Flies). Batters are not credited with reaching base on an error or fielder's choice, and they are not charged with an opportunity if they make a sacrifice bunt.

Lots of people would have made that tag......... lots of people would of hit that home run........... lots of people would of exploited the Indians' wheel play yesterday......

Delusional,

I hated to see Apollo die.

Really bummed me out.

"I must break you".

Mr T's prediction for the rematch in III was a clasic too....

PAIN

Jack Wilson sucks, no statistics you can quote me matter because my friends in NY don't think he is good. He isn't fast,isn't  a good fielder or a competent hitter. He is the reason the Pirates lose, and is not as good this year as Jimmy Rollins. He never led the Pirates to a World Series and everyone who doesn't think this is just a homer.

That about sums it up I think

Bloomquist stays in to play CF and Jamey Wright is now pitching.

Adam leads off and grounds to 2nd on the first pitch.  1 away.

Moss takes, ball 1. Fouls the next one off, 1-1.  Fouled away, 1-2.  Swings and misses for strike 3.  2 away.

Andy takes outside, ball 1.  Takes inside, ball 2.  Fouled off, 2-1.  Misses low, 3-1.  Grounded foul, 3-2.  And they ring him up...Andy doesn't like the call.  It looked high to me, but that retires the side.  

We go to the 9th, 5-2 Pirates.

You mention the defense tonight.  So they made the play.  Wouldn't you expect them to make those plays?  They are major leaguers (technically).  I would be upset if they didn't make those plays.  They are supposed to.  

Oh peachy, Hostage.  Just when I thought I'd gotten that tune out of my mind...   ;-)

fan in NH -

Thanks very much for the OBP formula. Here's a Hap Cap for being on the ball.  __/_H_\

I should of said Clubber Lang

Do you want a stat that sums up Jack Wilson's skill and leadership?  0 playoff games in 10 years...

Ken,

"Hey woman hey woman listen here. Since your old man ain't got no heart, maybe you like to see a real man. I bet you stay up late every night dreamin' you had a real man, don't ya? I'll tell you what. Bring your pretty little self over to my apartment tonight, and I'll show you a real man."

"C'mon champ. Hit me. You ain' so bad. My grandmother hits harder than that."

"No, I don't hate Balboa. I pity the fool, and I will destroy any man who tries to take what I got!"

No reason to doubt why Moss is in RF and Young rides the pine.

Meanwhile back on the farm......

Capps doesn't have closer stuff anymore......

Micky:    "He'll knock you into tomorrow"

Ken, I have that Real man clip on my computer, I play it every time my wife is po'd at me. Works like a charm,

at making her laugh.

oops, meant NuHo. I always get you two confused. You are s alike in every way.

<grin>