Morning links: Dude singing on that video

Great story 'When is now?' DK. A lot of tough questions and I think, very frank answers. It is a very interesting piece, but one that will take a while to find out the results. Also kudos to both the Pens and Pirates for getting together for an unforgettable experience. Let's hope some of that Champions spirit rubs off onto the Bucs!

Bay-Better loosen that arm up before playing catch at PNC.It would be an unhappy trip if you spent part of the trip on the DL with a bad wing.

Bay

On Sunday June 28th, how would you like to play catch on the field at PNC Park? I can get 4 people on the field after the game to play catch.

I'm thinking about a bad injury I had several years back.Us elder statesman need to look after each other.

Hmmm....I wonder why he didn't write a song when Ronny Ballgame was traded...

DK - I noticed in their "briefs" section at the bottom of the Brendan Harris story, the Twins beat writer is figuring on Charlie Morton starting tonight.

Maz - Thanks for the caution, old man! I have arthritis in both my knees. Far from being able to dunk a basketball, like Daryle can do at 39! So, I'll WADDLE down onto the field that night, and it'll definitely be "soft toss."

we ae all wasting our time.......

i'll see you all in 2015

Speaking of "Briefs" (Baywatch), that avatar of Sludgeworm's is the scariest thing I ever saw and I now have to go take several showers. Blecchhh!

                      HEAR YE  HEAR YE HEAR YE

                       BAYWATCH GATHERING

                                  JUNE 27th.

                       RSVP: tjfran@comcast.net

              LOCATION INFORMATION TO FOLLOW

Q: If you had the power, would you fire the FO, namely, NH and FC?

No.

I criticise them all the time, but I see they are a). competent, and b). have a plan.

2nd Q: If you had the power, would you fire the owner?

Yes.

Why?

Because he has been unable to satisfactorily demonstrate

a.) that he's not cheap, and b). that he is committed to winning.

I'll bet that if you asked all the posters, fewer than 1 in 10 would fire the FO, but more than half would fire the owner.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<  PROSPECT WATCH  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Today’s Topic =  STARTING PITCHING (stats thru 6/15/09)

Tom Gorzelanny – LHP – Indy (2nd Round,  2003 Draft )

1-1,  3.83 ERA ** 8 Games  44.2 IP 42 H  2HR 38 K 17 BB

Virgil Vasquez – RHP – Indy (waivers from Padres)

4-2,  4.40 ERA ** 12 Games  71.2 IP 80 H  11HR 51 K 9 BB

Daniel McCutchen – RHP –Indy (obtained in X.Nady trade)

4-5,   4.33 ERA ** 12 Games   68.2 IP  69 H  7 HR  58 K  19 BB

Eric Hacker – RHP – Indy (obtained from Yanks for Romey Sanchez)

3-2,  4.10 ERA ** 11 Games 59.1 IP  59 H  4 HR  36K  30 BB

Brad Lincoln – RHP - Altoona (1st Round, 2006 Draft)

1-4,   2.20 ERA ** 12 Games   69.2 IP 59 H  4 HR  63K  16 BB

Dan Moskos – LHP – Altoona (1st Round, 2007 Draft)

3-5,  3.94 ERA  **  12 Games  64 IP  70 H  5 HR 26K  25 BB

Mike Crotta – RHP –Altoona (17th Round, 2006 Draft)

3-3,   5.63 ERA ** 12 Games  654 IP  79 H  3 HR  36 K  12 BB

Jared Hughes – RHP – Altoona (4th Round, 2006 Draft)  (disabled list)

1-4,   1.91 ERA ** 7 Games   28.1 IP 26 H  0 HR  19 K   10 BB

Bryan Morris – RHP – Lynchburg (part of JBay trade)

1-1,  4.66 ERA ** 2 Game   9.2  IP  8 H  0 HR  3 K  4 BB

Jeff Locke – LHP – Lynchburg (obtained in McLouth trade) these are combined Braves & Pirate system numbers

1-4,  5.37 ERA ** 12 Games  53.2 IP 57 H  1HR 52 K 30 BB

Ronald Uviedo – RHP –Lynchburg (on Pirate 40 man roster)

4-3,   3.19 ERA ** 12 Games  62 IP  64 H  6 HR  54 K   11 BB

Duke Welker – RHP –West Virginia (2nd Round, 2007 Draft)

0-7,   4.57 ERA ** 13  Games 63 IP  57 H  4 HR  44 K   41 BB

Rudy Owens – LHP-West Virginia (28th Round, 2006 Draft)

6-1,  2.48 ERA **  12 Games, 61.2 IP, 50 H, 7 HR,  56 K, 11BB

Justin Wilson – LHP – State College (5th Round, 2008 Draft) ..combined Lynchburg & State College

3-3,   7.13 ERA ** 11 Games  41.2 IP  54 H   10 HR  34 K   21 BB

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I wonder if Nutting expressed any regrets about not firing D. Littlefield earlier, how he and other owners let organization's talent level get so low because they either didn't care or were poor evaluators of what DL was doing with organization?

Morning Links Part 2

Led by former OCU standout Freddy Sanchez, Pittsburgh Pirates show off power

www.newsok.com/.../3377834

Twins-Pirates: Pittsburgh on cusp of changing losing ways

www.examiner.com/x-8981-Minnesota-Twins-Examiner~y2009m6d15-TwinsPirates-Pittsburgh-looks-for-a-winning-record

Moss enjoys time in town with Pirates

www.waltontribune.com/story.lasso

Pirates pitcher out to prove that he’s worth his salt

www.tribune-democrat.com/.../local_story_166235528.html

While interesting, the comments from Huntington and Coonelly mostly danced around the real question you posed and that is if the Pirates are willing to put "rebuilding" on hold for the rest of this year for the chance to catch lightening in a bottle this year when a slightly better than .500 record could well mean a wildcard berth or even a division championship.

Further, the Pirates' management seems unable to grasp the concept that they could field a competitive major league team AND re-stock the farm system at the same time. It doesn't have to be "either or" yet all the comments from Huntington and Coonelly indicate they do believe it IS one strategy at the expense of the other.

Believe it or not, the ballclub as presently constituted is not that bad. They've had pretty consistent pitching and played good defense which has given them a chance to win most games. There is really no reason to trade Wilson, Sanchez or Adam LaRoche just to trade them since the front office doesn't expect much in return anyway. If Wilson and LaRoche walk at the end of the year, the Bucs will get compensatory draft picks next year which would probably be just as good as any "prospects" they might get in return.

Someone tell Mr Nutting that none of us ever expects a static roster in this day and age of sports. However....

Being able to buy a player's jersey and knowing that the name & number on the back won't be outdated in 4.5 years would be nice.  

You know when I will become a believer? When they sign Andrew McCutchen to a 5 year contract in 2014. Not a 4 year contract before the 2013 season to eat up his arbitation years and 1st year of free agency.

But, I'd be willing to wager that will never happen. They control him through 2015, which means he gets traded in the summer of 2014.

Sorry, but past and present actions speak louder than any lip service/spin doctoring that NH, FC, or BN put out. .

DK hit it right on the head at the end of the article. They are 4.5 games out. Maybe they don't add anyone, but if they keep McLouth and bring up McCutchen,and add Doumit back to the line up in July. They are a more potent line up the rest of the way, and you at least create SOME buzz about the team and SOME positive goodwill towards a long suffering fan base.

So you keep McLouth, you draft & sign Crow. You at least TRY to contend this year, and in 2 years you have an outfield of Tabata, McCutchen, McLouth, an infield of Laroche, Bixler/Friday or a FA, Sanchez & Alvarez, and Doumit behind the plate.

Heck, maybe you can even sign Jack Wilson to a more reasonable contract after this year.

Your rotation could be Maholm, Duke, Ohlendorf, Lincoln, Crow.

I just don't get it.

THE OFFICIALLY UNOFFICIAL PBC BLOGS AND MLB LINKS:

Bleacher Report--The Pittsburgh Pirates Should Be Contracted Out of Baseball

bleacherreport.com/.../199859-the-pittsburgh-pirates-should-be-contracted-out-of-baseball

Bucs Dugout--News Roundup: Pirates Considering Trading Snell?

www.bucsdugout.com/.../news-roundup-pirates-considering

Bucs Dugout--Oh, yeah, about that Nate shrine...

www.bucsdugout.com/.../oh-yeah-about-that-nate-shrine

WhyGavs--The Raod to 17: Humble Beginnings

whygavs.com/.../the-road-to-17-humble-beginnings.html

Raise the Jolly Roger--Should the Pirates sell even if they’re playing well?

raisethejollyroger.com/.../should-the-pirates-sell-even-if-theyre-playing-well

Hyzdu Headquarters-A look back at the draft

hyzduhq.blogspot.com/.../look-back-at-draft.html

Allegheny Armada--2009 Draft  (click on each player for it about them)

alleghenyarmada.blogspot.com/.../2009-draft.html

The Green Weenie--Off Day Reader

oldbucs.blogspot.com/.../off-day-reader.html

By Gosh, It's Langosch--Huntington on Moss, Dumatrait and Yates

bucsbits.mlblogs.com/.../huntington_on_moss_dumatrait_a.html

PBC Home Page--Inbox: Who will turn on the power?

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

PBC Home Page--Sanchez continues to fall short of ASG

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

Rumbunter--The Fickle Fingers of Pirates Fans

rumbunter.com/.../the-fickle-fingers-of-pirates-fans

Rumbunter--Pirates-Twins Matchup Boils Down to Mauer, Morneau

rumbunter.com/.../pirates-twins-matchup-boils-down-to-mauer-morneau

MLB Transactions

www.cbssports.com/.../transactions

Bucco Fans--2009 Pirates are Better Than 2008 Pirates

www.buccofans.com/.../2009-pirates-are-better-than-2008.html

A PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT Covering Some Basics About The Blog

As more people join this  community a number of questions arise.  Here are some clarifications.

1) Many of us who post here treat this as a discussion forum, not as a traditional blog.  Dejan's post sets the table but we respond to each other more than we respond to specifics of Dejan's post.

2) We always start the day with two threads--morning links and other stuff.  Morning links is primarily baseball discussion and Other Stuff is non baseball.

3) When some posts "OS" they are referring to the "Other Stuff" thread.

4)  Throughout the day, as stories break, Dejan will upload a new thread.  When you see the term "ants marching"  that simply means a new thread has been posted and most of the posters move to the new thread and start posting there.   Going to a new thread helps keep things flowing as we often have over 100 or even 200 posts on the original thread.

5) Instructions for uploading an avatar can be found by clicking my name, BK's name, or Mad's name.  We all have the instructions on our announcements page.  Many find avatars make following the posts easier.  The photo must be on your computer and the avatar will not appear instantly.

6)  Sign in w/ Nurse Cratchet for your straight jacket, meds, and room assignment

7)  As Dejan reminded us the other day, this thread is for baseball talk and the OS is for other topics

8)  Please read the 'guide to commenting' before you post" A link to the guide to commenting on the blog is located on the left near the top of the page in the section labeled  "Authors"

9) Do not post entire articles from other sources. - It is an act of illegal copyright infringement.   Just post links to the story

I surely left something out but hopefully covered the basics

DK:

"Their answers might or might not be to your satisfaction, but no question went unanswered."

First let me say, I appreciate you asking those questions.

However, I disagree that the questions went unanswered.

"We don't have a definitive answer but, at the same time, we're not saying it's 2015,"

and

"We're closer than we've ever been."

IMO your question was avoided with some netherland nebulus answer that tells me nothing.

Remember, Bob Nutting has been chairman of this organization since 2003.

Back then we were told they were rebuilding with an eye toward being competitive in the 2008 / 2009 time frame. Well guess what, that time frame came and went and even though there was a core in place, Bob Nutting refused to support it with a payroll much beyond $50M.

In 2005, 2006, 2007, again under Bob Nuttings chairmanship the club kept telling fans they were getting better and that they were closer even though it was apparent to fans that by the clubs performance this was not the case.

Now yesterday you interview these guys and we get the same nebulus answers of "we're closer than we've ever been" and "We don't have a definitive answer but, at the same time, we're not saying it's 2015," ???

Please. It's the same old BS we've been hearing since 2004.

Again, I appreciate your effort and attempt, but honestly I don't think they answered a darn thing.

PI Stingray,

I respectfully disagree. I didn't see "frank" answers.

I saw "teflon" answers.

DK clearly asked the right questions and I appreciate that however I find the answers to be as evasive and nebulus as ever.

"We don't have a definitive answer but, at the same time, we're not saying it's 2015,"

Let me repeat...."We don't have a definitive answer".

Remember, under Bob Nutting's leadership as Chairman of the Board since 2003......In 2004 they told us they would be competitive in 2008 and 2009. Now in 2009 they are saying they don't know when for certain but they hope it will be before 2015?

Come on now.

IMO these non-answers serve as grounds for legal action from the State of PA, Allegheny County, and The City of Pittsburgh to demand a change in ownership by MLB. This region did it's part by providing a publically funded venue and continues to do it's part with better attendance than this club deserves and Bob Nutting has reneged on his part of the bargain for going on 6 years now and apparently plans to continue to renege for another 5 or 6 years.

The answers, or really slippery non-answers are completely unacceptable.

We all want them to win, but enough is enough.

DK, great article.  And it was a great idea for an article -and great timing too.  I for one appreciate their honesty--and I believe they are honest.  And I appreciate that it seemed like they didn't duck any question --and they didn't duck DK.     I agree with their plan and certainly hope they are successful.

I am glad to hear BN say he leaves the baseball decisions to NH & FC.

DK, a lot of people point to 2003 as the year B Nutting became Chairman of the Board.  Do you know when he started to become more involved in the baseball decisions.  ( I would classify a baseball decision as 'firing the gm')

Hostage

Good luck getting any government, be it state, local, or whatever getting involved in the plight of the Pirates, and short of proving Bob Nutting is an axe-murderer, MLB is not going to step in. Any move in this direction could end up worse than the last 16+ years of losing. IMO your words are as empty as the "suits" you like to attack in the FO.

The position of chairman of the board is not an honorary position.

Thunder,

The year BN took the reins was 2007, when he, not Ogden, became majority stockholder and promptly dismissed McClatchy and Littlfied.

Since my son was born the Steelers and Penguins have won a championship, Pitt made their first bowl in several years and the Pirates have continued their cellar dwelling.

I have been as upset as anyone that the Pirates are willing to punt last year, this year and probably the next couple as well, but I think I have come to grips with it.  Fact is, they will trade anyone of note on this roster for prospects that can maybe help them in 2011-2013 time frame.  It stinks because the on-field product will be bad in all likelihood, but as long as we know they are doing it, it is ok.

I think the responses given by the FO and Owner in the article were very clear.  They will do what they feel is best, whether the fans or team like it or not.  They will not spend money until they see the team as ready for long-term contention.  And they will trade their present 'core' for prospects since the window of opportunity will not be open until those guys all cost $8M+.

Fine.  I would still like to see them pour more money into prospect signings.  A $15M draft budget and a $5-8M budget for international signings would make me happy.  No more band-aids unless they are necessary to avoid total humiliation (this means SS, primarily).  

Given their strategy, I think they should be running a lean $25M payroll for the next few years, taking their lumps and allowing the new core to grow into a contender.  That core would be: C Doumit (Backup C Sanchez), 1B Alvarez, 2B Ford, SS ?, 3B LaRoche, LF McCutchen, CF Hernandez, RF Tabata with SPs Maholm, Lincoln, Duke, Ohlendorf and Morton with the rest in the pen.  Neil Walker and his ilk will be bench guys only.  That lineup is weak in the power department and up the middle on defense, so I assume that trading Wilson, LaRoche Sr and Sanchez will address those needs.  The SP is also weak and will need to be addressed over time with some dominant arms.

Anyway...I am pretty much at peace now.  I guess having a newborn baby has made me soft.

Bob Nutting may have been Chairman of the Board in 2003, but IMHO Ogden was pulling the strings. Bob may have been "representing the family's interests" as some have posted, but I think Ogden was telling him how to do it.

Ted,

Your response to Thunder is factually incorrect. - The Nutting family indeed gained majority ownership of the PBC back in 2003 and Bob Nutting subsequently assumed the position of Chairman of the Board.

He assumed full control of the daily operations of the club in 2007 when he became what they call "principle owner" or in other words the official representative of the club to MLB. - Taking over for Kevin McClatchy who had held that role since his investor group purchased the club in 1996.

It's spelled out pretty clearly on the Pirates home page.

"Robert (Bob) Nutting serves as Chairman of the Board of the Pittsburgh Pirates. Bob assumed control of the club in January of 2007, thus becoming the sixth principal owner in the history of the Pittsburgh Pirates. He has served as Chairman of the Board and represented his family's interest in the club since 2003."

Though McClatchy served as President and "principle owner" until 2007, Bob Nutting's wielded significant influence as "Chairman of the Board". - Particularly as it relates to budget approval and expectations that were placed upon McClatchy.

The chairman of the board role is not an honorary position despite what some may think.

Ted,

"but IMHO Ogden was pulling the strings."

Really? And what do you base this on?

And if that was the case, why didn't Ogden simply serve in the role as Chairman?

Yesterday the Three Stoogers, today Abbott and Costello with a variation of the Whos on First Routine :)

Ted,

"Bob may have been "representing the family's interests" as some have posted, but I think Ogden was telling him how to do it."

Are you suggesting that the Nutting family and the PBC are deceiptful or somehow misrepresenting to the public and MLB in how they the responsibilities of the chairmans role were filled?

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../nutting_robert.jsp

Ted,

You might want to bone up on your history of the PBC.

The attached article DK wrote back in 2007 should give you a better understand of the organization and the role Bob Nutting has played going back to 2003.

www.post-gazette.com/.../753573-63.stm

One point of clarification to those who seem to think the chairmans role is an honorary title with no influence.

DK wrote: "Mr. Nutting and Mr. McClatchy have worked together closely since 2003, with Mr. Nutting often participating in team and MLB meetings."

That's not very nice JAL.

Some might even say "snarky".

We are all very aware of the consecutive years of losing that the Pirates are in.   But it seems to me that there are a good number of teams that have only had a few winning seasons during that same 16 years. ( KC, Reds, ? )  If a team had a couple of years of being over .500 during that same time --- I am sure there fans are just about as frustrated as we are.   I am not trying to put a 'happy spin' on 16 years of losing.

And I don't always think that throwing money at the problem is the answer. Yes, when we get better players we should spend more money.

There is a significant difference between "throwing money at a problem" and having one of the two or three lowest operating budgets in all of MLB and the lowest of all clubs that have the benefit of a new, publically financed ballpark. - Especially when the delta between the PBC's operating budget and the average MLB operating budget is upwards of 30% to 40%.

But whatever.....

The Reds have two first place finishes and 5 years of .500 ball or better since 1992.

Hostage,

As my posts clearly stated, these are my opinions. Bob Nutting was introduced to the public on a Pirate broadcast in 2007 as the new majority owner of the teams, so that is why my opinion is what it is. You and I are never going to agree on this, and that's fine, but please don't flood the blog with multiple posts just to prove your point or to try to show me up. Oh wait, I forgot, that's what you do, along with making fun of people who misspeak (such as Tony Sanchez's use of the word "likings") In that same vein, please define deceipt for me. Is that a receipt one gets for deceiving?

People who live in glass houses should not walk around naked.

Ted,

Likewise people who are ignorant of the truth should not be resistant to knowledge.

Ted,

Also, there is a difference between "majority owner" and "principle owner".

Kevin McClatchy served as the clubs "principle owner" through January 2007 although he had not been the "majority owner."

Good morning all.

@ DK: Thank you for asking the questions that should be asked and for your skill in laying out the answers. Had you had a particular axe to grind, this would have been a great opportunity to do a real scissors and paste job with the quotes and you did not. As always, I appreciate having a "window" into what management is thinking.

About what the FO said. Unsurprisingly to some here, I am going to take the side of: "What answer?"

Why? It strikes me as odd that a FO that prides itself on the time and effort put in to developing metrics to measure progress, obtaining thorough and detailed player evaluations and conceptualizing, developing and implementing a rigorous "Pirate Way" of doing things for every minor-league entity to follow (including rigorous follow-up) somehow cannot articulate when "now" might be.

It is as if the focus is so intense on the plan, it's execution and the care and feeding of same that they have lost sight of the goal.

I really would have loved for one of them to have detailed how much of the $30 million plus that is not being spent at the big league level IS being spent on the draft, internationals, scouting and the farm system overall.

I am not naive enough to think that by spending $80 million on the big team that we would have an instant contender. I do wonder, however, just how much would it have added to the annual budget to have a corner outfielder who can hit for power and an experienced pitcher who can eat innings and win consistently. I am talking two players to make this team competitive until such time as the hands on the PBS alarm clock reach "Now" and the alarm goes off...

Jose

Ted,

Why won't you answer my question as to what you base your opinion that Ogden Nutting was "pulling the strings" since 2003?

Is that an unreasonable question?

Hostage

Not very nice--Abbott and Costello had their moments--not an insult to compared to one of their skits--and it was a baseball skit :)

Interesting... In the article about visiting his home town Moss mentions how difficult it is to hit homeruns when you don't play everyday.  Kind of lends credence to those who say march him out there every day until he gets in a groove.

The other side of the coin is to cut your losses and put someone out there who is hitting.

I'm leaning toward the "march him out there" crowd.  It's time to see what he can do longterm.  I thought he was coming out of the slump awhile back but he slipped again.  Time to work through it.

@NuHo

"IMO these non-answers serve as grounds for legal action from the State of PA, Allegheny County, and The City of Pittsburgh to demand a change in ownership by MLB."

Please... please... please let's not try and get ANY government to take action!  I have witnessed how government acts when it gets involved in sports.  

One other point to make - government (local, state, and fed) give tax credits to Corporate America all the time.  There is a very good chance that the office building you are working in we partially funded by some sort of tax credit.  Let's not try and hold the PBC to a higher standard than other corporations in this country.  

With that being said, are the Pirates eligible for a bailout???

Q,

LOL! - Fair enough.

I suppose you are probably right. The Congressional hearings on steroid abuse were painful enough. Who can forget Congressman Shays question about ""Rafael Palmerry's 300 hits"?

Kidding aside, legal action may be overboard but I would like to see local and state governmental pressure placed upon Bob Nutting and MLB to start trying to win "now" or get a new owner.

@ Q: No offense, but it was A-ok for government to get involved in funding and building PNC Park?

I would have to do a search here, but Hostage listed the complete sources of funding for PNC and the retirement of the debt for building the park.

Perhaps, since it is a bad thing to have government involved then government could sell PNC to the PBC for $1.00 and let THEM pay for THEIR park as they get all the revenue (except the amusement tax on each ticket).

Then we could let more of the RAD funds go to things like libraries and museums which are either cutting hours or closing.

Jose

Somebody please help me as I am thoroughly confused:

-the front office said they need to add talent at every level which implies McClouth type trades will continue until the depth is too their liking.

-the Pirates are adamant that Doumit will remain at Catcher.

-Doumit just signed a deal through 2011 (i think)

-with the #4 overall pick they selected a catcher

This means either Doumit will be traded sooner rather than later or they ignored their lack of talent depth and drafted his replacement for 2012?

Yes... those hearings were a comple joke and was an easy way for those congressmen to get some 'face time'.  It was embarrassing that they had to create that spectacle.

Anyway... IMO, Bob really took the reigns of the Bucs in 2007.  I agree that the Chairman of the Board role is an important role and decisions regarding budgets were made since Bob N held that role since 2003.  The ARam trade falls under that time frame so I hold them responsible for that move.

With that said, I also feel that Bob N realized that he needed to take a more prominant role in the daily operations of the team and hire the right people to start making those decisions.  He realized that his money was not being spent wisely - see Morris trade - and felt that he could put better people in those positions and get a better return for his dollars.  

Jose,

I'd like us to use some of the RAD funds to entice a couple large hotel chains to build 3 or 4 more large hotels so that we have enough hotel space for large conventions.

We have a wonderfully new and spacious convention center but without sufficient hotel space none of the large conventions are willing to come here.

IMO a dozen or more large conventions in Pittsburgh each year could provide as much economical benefit to the city as the Nutting Pirates do.

BJM,

You got that exactly right. And they don't have a definitive idea on when the club will be competitive but they hope it will be before 2015.

But.....we are heading in the right direction and everyone is very excited about it.

;-)

@Jose

My earlier statement did mention that government tax creates are used all the time - most likely helped fund the building you and I work in every day.  The government will use those funds to help stimulate the economy and create jobs.

You think that if PNC Park was never built, the Pirates would still be here?  You think any of those restaurants on the North Side that employ many people would have been built?  How about the hotels and their employees?  How about the stadium employees?  That's a lot of "average Joes" that have benefited from the Bucs being here - not just for the million dollar players.

I just don't agree with the government stepping in to run a company.  Sports are unique - you can have a thriving business (aka making money) but still be unsuccessful on the field.  People are still employed and jobs aren't lost.  The Bucs are not losing money aren't in a position to go bankrupt which would cause a greater strain on the local economy.  They simply have not been successful on the field and I don't think the state and local government can help with that... unless your local senator can bat 4th and hit 40HR's a year!

Q,

If the federal government didn't hold the hearings on steroids, what do you think the MLB steroids policy would be as of today?

Lot of talk about whether this club is truly "competitive".  I thought about it and here are some of my reasons for why this club will or won't be competitive come September.  Feel free to jump in and add or debate.  (Note: I am assuming the lineup stays intact, since any trade would most likely weaken the ML club)

Why they will:

1 The pitching is doing much better than expected

2 They have done okay without Doumit and he is coming back in a few weeks

3 Andy has found his groove and Freddy looks like a batting champion.

Why they won't:

1 The pitching is much better than expected. Will it come back to earth?

2 Many young players in their first full season. (Andy, Nyjer, Moss, Ohlie, Karstens, Diaz, Jaramillo, A McCutch, Morton, Meek) Look for some of them to fade due to the unaccustomed workload.

3 Andy has not found his power yet, and Moss needs to find his swing and his power.

4 Still too little depth in the minors. An injury to an infielder,  starting pitcher, or back of bullpen arm will be a huge blow.  

Hostage,

Sorry for the delay, I had to go make a run in the cab.

I base my opinion on not even knowing who Bob Nutting was until he was interviewed prior to a ST game (at least I think it was ST) in 2007, when he was announced as the new majority stockholder of the Pirates. Until that time the only Nutting I heard of was Ogden. I also heard "The Nuttings" from time-to-time, but don't recall hearing Bob's name specifically. Since I was no longer in Pa at the time, all I had was internet and the TV.I don't recall seeing Bob's name even on the PG webite. I figured if Odgen was the man behind the money, it would be in his best interest to dictate the moves. If Bob was in charge as you suggest, why did it take so long to jettison Littlefield and McClatchy? It appears to me that wasn't done until Bob was the majority stockholder, thus my opinion.

BTW, in that same interview in ST, Nutting was also portrayed as taking over the day-to-day operations of the club from Kevin McC.

Did you guys read the article and not just the quotes???

DK wrote and acknowledged information in other areas of the report:

"Management's view of its current talent level, in Pittsburgh and below, is that it is insufficient at pretty much every position other than third base and center field."  Does anyone disagree with this?  Other than some might say that we are flush at catching while not so much at 3rd.

"Neither facet will change soon, given the time it will take for players from this management's two drafts to develop, as well as the mounting industry-wide difficulty in acquiring young talent through other means."  Hence the inability to name an exact date for the improvement to hit Pittsburgh.

"So, what qualifies as contention?Owner Bob Nutting was adamant that call will be made by team president Frank Coonelly and Huntington....Those aren't decisions I'm ever going to step in and try to make. I know that would be a mistake." Thus Bob Nutting will not be the one making the decisions.  I wish some of you people would recognize that the decisions are made by baseball people (with budgetary constraints - yes we all know that line thank you).

"Coonelly's stance: Once he and Huntington see real contention, the Pirates could flip from the norm and trade prospects for veterans." - Has anyone on here really thought from the beginning of the season that this was the team to get us to the promised land?  Please be honest here.

"We do care about winning," Huntington said. "That's why we do this. If we didn't care about winning, it would be easy just to coast along, make the popular moves, make the low-impact moves. We care about winning this much. We're doing this to win." - So they acknowledge that the move with McLouth was unpopular - why make it if they are not trying to improve?

At some point people need to realize that while these people are trying to improve the performance on the field, there is a time commitment required which the new FO has not exceeded yet.  It seems that some on here just want to complain about the FO, to somehow justify their anger.  It takes time to improve and time to build.  I am not saying that I agree with all of the moves the FO has made, but I am not ready to throw them all away.

Hostage

DK wrote: "Mr. Nutting and Mr. McClatchy have worked together closely since 2003, with Mr. Nutting often participating in team and MLB meetings."

Does that equate to running the day-to-day operations? I attended many meetings of the Franklin Independant Men's Sofball League, didn' t mean squat other than I went to the meetings

".Likewise people who are ignorant of the truth should not be resistant to knowledge."

Thank you so much for not talking down to me. How can I be so stupid as to doubt that your OPINIONS are the truth and no one should ever question them?

Menkrick

Bob Nutting has been Chairman of the Board and directly involved in baseball related decisions and meetings since 2003. How much more time does he need?

It's been 6 years and counting.

Did YOU read the part not yet knowing definitively when they will be competitive but expect that it will be by 2015?

So Bob Nutting gets 12 years to produce a winning club?

That's a bit much.

I just looked up "snarky" in my Funk & Wagnall's and there was a picture of Bob Nutting with a red circle and a slash through it over his face. Wonder what that means?

@21

Nothing happened until Jose Canseco's book came out.  He threw out names and then people started to take action - including the media.  I don't remember the government looking into this during the HR race in '98.  They were all praising McGwire and Sosa back then.  When the focus shifted, then the government focused on attacking those guys during the congressional hearings.  They acted like the boss from the movie 'Wall Street'.  

Trust me, I think Jose is a bit of a goof, but those are the guys that tend to be dangerous if you have something to hide.  He exposed it, then actions were taken.

Hostage,

Your article is dated 2007. Is that not when I said Bob Nutting took over the operations of the team? When you define principle and majority as far as ownership, it's just semantics, 2007 is still when Bob Nutting took over.

As I have stated many times, I feel your problem with Bob Nutting goes far beyond the disgruntled fan speaking out,  and the rest of the FO is guilty by association.

Q, I don't dispute any of that.  But in my opinion, the current policy regarding steroids would not be what it is without the government hearing.  I don't think Canseco's book would have changed anything.  People would just look at him the way they did (seeking money) until it started to look like his book had a decent amount of accuracy in it.

Good day mateys

or is it MATETTES.

There sure does seem to be a lot of fur flying today.Reminds me of the days in high school when 2 girls would have a tiff.

NuHo, we sure missed you yesterday, did they tell you about the fake NuHo? He was hilarious, posted exactly the opposite, some people where wondering WHT,but it was only a fake troll

I was wondering, for all you posters who are so darn sure of the future, as far as the PBC is concerned,please mail me your crystal ball so i can play the lotto I think the payout this month is 150 million, and I will gladly split any winnings 60 40, in honor of the payroll which is 40% BELOW MLB AVERAGE

Now that is repetitive, does anybody else see the irony?

But you do have the right to annoy the heck outta me, shame on me if I let you continually do it.

You're right Menkrick.  They talked in the article today about how the only depth we have in our system is at CF and 3B.  For us to be a successful organization long-term, year in and year out, we need depth everywhere.  I can certainly understand why people are impatient though and I personally don't want to see us trade Wilson and/or Sanchez because I think we can contend next year with those guys.

NuHO

"Did YOU read the part not yet knowing definitively when they will be competitive but expect that it will be by 2015?"

No, I didn't.  Because that's not what was said.

""We don't have a definitive answer but, at the same time, we're not saying it's 2015," Huntington said. "With this trade and other moves before that, we feel the talent level is significantly improved over where it was a year ago and, certainly, two years ago. We're closer than we've ever been."

indy,

I tried that whole lottery gig the other day, no takers, dammit, LOL

Hostage -

Way to focus on the one part that you can twist to support your conspiracy theory.

Read the rest of the article and try to apply a normal level of judgement when assessing the statements made.

Oh, and in the spirit of your "people with an ignorance of the facts..." Try this one on for yourself.

People with their heads up their butts should not fart.  It is not nice to talk down to people - do you like it when people do it to you?  

As for drafting Sanchez when we already have Doumit, it is silly to assert that you shouldn't draft someone of the same position as an established player.  You need depth at all levels of the organization, because who knows what the future holds?  Maybe Sanchez will be a trade asset in a couple of years for a veteran that can help the club in a pennant push?

In 2004, the Red Sox had Nomar at SS during the prime of his career, yet with their sandwich pick, they drafted a SS.  Kid by the name of Dustin Pedroia.

OOPS

Oh and another thing

NuHo please take the blinders off. How come everybody else reads that story different than you. I always thought you were intelligent, but after reading your first comment, I wonder if those smarts are dulled by an unhealthy disgust of all things Nutting. Hope you shave your head because you will be pulling it out before this season is done. That is the real message of DK's chat with THE GROUP.

No promises, but, I believe that we are finally getting the BUCCO BUS back into traffic. I may not like the route we are taking, but at least THE GROUP, and I have the same destination, I am not driving, and it is OK with me. Back seat drivers are annoying, and you my good friend are a back seat driver. But on other topics you and I might agree, so please enjoy your day. Oh and BTW, didn't you go on a trip the last few days.

@ Q: At the risk of the two of us hearing from the Assembled regarding our "non-baseball" discussion, let me address your comments.

1) there is not a single, independent, study that shows that any city benefits from publicly funding stadia. Carnegie Mellon did a wide-ranging study several years ago that showed that when compared to infrastructure costs, lost opportunity costs, debt burden (which affects credit ratings) and the removal of large amounts of land from the tax base, the income generated does not exceed the money spent. The only studies you will see favoring such things are the studies presented by those who want to do them.

2) Much of the building you see going on around PNC has been subsidized through the URA using either outright assistance or things like tax-increment financing.

3) Several of the restaurants/bars in the neighborhood have already gone under.

4) Many of the jobs "generated" are part-time, low-pay positions. These positions are only available during the season. We need sustained growth, not 81 days of it.

IF we as a public are going to fund this sort of venture, then it behooves the main beneficiaries (the team owners) to put a competitive product on the field so that whatever the return is, it will be the maximum possible.

Personally, I would rather see the average attendance be in the mid-20's so as to justify part of the expenditure.  I am sure that those trumpeting the "benefits" of public support based their studies on a lot more than 17,000 fans at each game.

Public investment in sporting facilities is a loser for everyone but the owners.

Jose

@21

To be completely honest, the steriod policy doesn't effect me in the least.  As long as attention in placed on the topic to avoid a young kid from starting to take the stuff and hurting himself/herself.  I doubt that a 50 game suspension would cause a teenager to think he should not take steriods.  Manny's contact is paying him about $25MM - so he'll still make $17-$18MM this year.  What if taking banned substances caused him to bulk up those stats to gain that contract?  Does that really deter someone from using?  

I can look at player A that may have better stats than player B.  If I know that player A took steriods, then I can make my own opinion on who actually was the better player.

Conversly, I can look at Barry Bonds and know he was a Hall of Fame talent even though it is widely accepted that he took banned substances.  

FSF,

Read carefully. It's dangerous to put the proper spin on some poster's twisted recollection of statements. The one the the Venerable One did not count on was anyone reading the NOT before 2015. Wouldn't fit his purpose an'at.

Gotta run

optome, optimar, optamotrist,  forget it eye doctor appointment

Well put Jose.  Publicly financed stadiums, as a whole, are poor uses of tax dollars.  (And just because the Steelers are winning doesn't make it any less true for Heinz Field.)

"Public investment in sporting facilities is a loser for everyone but the owners.

Jose, I thought your post just now was excellent but I just don't agree with this comment.  We would have lost the Pirates and the Penguins without public investment.  The Steelers very well may have gone to Washington County.  To me, public investment in this case goes to our quality of life.  I couldn't imagine living in a city without at least 2 of those sports to follow.

I am still waiting on the definition of deceipt. If i wuz smart enuff I kuld looke it up in a dikshunairy, but it would probably say "see deceit" and that couldn't be the truth, or could it?

Q,

"I doubt that a 50 game suspension would cause a teenager to think he should not take steriods."

I agree with this but for me, that's a separate issue to be dealt with separately.

I think the steroids policy has possibly helped to correct the problem.  All those in the minors and majors should have an equal chance of being successful without the use of banned substances, IMO.

For example, Kevin Young used steroids.  Why should he block someone who maybe wasn't using steroids and didn't want to?

21

"Jose, I thought your post just now was excellent but I just don't agree with this comment.  We would have lost the Pirates and the Penguins without public investment.  The Steelers very well may have gone to Washington County.  To me, public investment in this case goes to our quality of life.  I couldn't imagine living in a city without at least 2 of those sports to follow."

I disagree.  Teams use these scare tactics to get state/local govt's to put up money for new facilities. I understand the possibility of losing teams is a frightening one, but is it worth what amounts to extortion on the part of the teams?

I must head off too--wonders will be here when I return.

Ted,  I think it means there is a discount on your receipt

Other than Roger Clemmons and Andy Petitte, no one talks about how many pitchers were on steroids (or still are). If steroids are the culprit, how did steroids change Barry Bonds (for example) into someone who seldom struck out on a low inside pitch when that was his MO when he was with the Pirates?

ted

One last thing fore I head out

Isn't deceit where you sit--You sit on de seat  :)

FSF,

"Teams use these scare tactics to get state/local govt's to put up money for new facilities. I understand the possibility of losing teams is a frightening one, but is it worth what amounts to extortion on the part of the teams?"

I think the teams use scare tactics to get the government moving along. The government is pretty slow.  That's what Rooney and Mario did.  In the Pirates case, MLB required the new stadium.

I think extortion is too harsh of a term to use.  Without the public funds, I think it would be a lock that the Pirates and Penguins wouldn't be here.  I don't have a problem with using public funds for things like stadiums, convention centers, and department stores (Lazarus and Lord & Taylors).

Morning inmates, a beautiful day in the burgh

For discussion - Top Ten Targets as proposed so far

1. Jordan Cooper (stated asking price $900K)

2. Zach von Rosenburg

3.  Colton Cain

4. Trent Stevenson

5. Victor Black

6. Evan Chambers

7. Aaron Baker

8. Michael Heller (7 digits)

9. Brooks Pounders

10. Matthew Den Dekker

JJ.

Aaahhhh, I knew there was a reasonable answer.

:-)

And now, for something completely different, a man with a stereo up his nose.

Tedkin, I don't think steroids made Barry Bonds more of a contact hitter.  I think they made him hit the ball harder.

@Jose

I didn't mean to sound like what was going on at the North Side is similar to Silicon Valley.  My point was simply that having the Pirates in PGH benefits the city much more than not having the Pirates here.  I still believe that there is an economic impact to having a professional sports franchise in the city.

Have there been studies on the economic impact of government providing tax relief to other companies building a corporate headquarters?  Don't answer that... just making a point that we tend to focus on sports teams while a lot of this happens all around.  

Time to get back to baseball talk....

JAL,

Ohhhh my!!!!

Oh hell, even Google says :did you mean deceit?" when I typed in deceipt.

Maybe I'm not so stupid after all.

But I must be.

Or maybe not.

Funny, I don't remember being absent-minded.

Ted, that is an interesting topic: how does vision play into the use of these drugs?  

I think it fair to say Barry was along in his career that he could still make improvements.  Remember how many years Ted Williams and others were away from the game and came back and got better.

21,

My point exactly, so what's to say they didn't make pitchers throw harder? Or recover from injury faster to pitch more innings? It's not just on the hitters (the steroid issue).

With that, it's back to the cab wars.

Back after noon.

JJ, for whatever it's worth, Barry Bonds used to say that as he got older, he never stopped learning about hitting whether it was the tendencies of the pitcher he was facing, which pitch based on the situation he was most likely to get a good fastball, etc.

Ted, you can stick to your story, me, I was working the ryme to its fullest.

Ted,

"My point exactly, so what's to say they didn't make pitchers throw harder? Or recover from injury faster to pitch more innings? It's not just on the hitters (the steroid issue)."

I absolutely agree with you.

@21

"I think the steroids policy has possibly helped to correct the problem."

Maybe, but the government stepped up only when the publicity turned negative and in attack mode.  I never once heard the government or media question steriods back in '98, and if they did, it was not an outcry like today.

"All those in the minors and majors should have an equal chance of being successful without the use of banned substances, IMO."

I completely agree with this statement, but to be honest, it doesn't affect me directly.  The players association never pushed for the testing even though some/many of those players were being blocked by a user.  Why did they fight testing if so many of the players were being blocked by a guy that's stats were blown out of proportion?

JJ,

Fair enough my friend.

DK: "So guys, How Soon Is Now?"

NH/FC/BN: "Hey shut your mouth! How can you say I go about things the wrong way?"  -- Morrissey... pretty clever on Dejan's part, wasn't it?

So lots of problems with this "when is now" issue. Let me be one of the first to say it'll be sooner than you think. At no point, NO POINT, from 1993 to 2007 did the PBC FO have a clue about what they wanted to do or how to manage this organization. Littlefield was a complete disaster and Bonifay had no idea how to manage the very limited funds he was allocated with which to work.

Now we have two guys in place who have a plan, a clue, and ideas that run from the bottom levels of the organization to the top. Can they at least be given a few years to execute this plan?

Attack the Nuts if you must, because they are truly the source of the problems with the PBC. NH and FC are dealing with the myriad of ills that ail the PBC and they're doing it with a solid plan of building from the ground levels. This is NOT a REBUILDING. This IS BUILDING, period.

And in two to four years, when the building is complete, we'll all be proud PBC fans. Even the naysayers.

I agree with Curious George. Maybe Bob Nutting IS committed now, but where has he been the previous 6 years. Chairman of the Board is THE most important position. The board approves budgets, major acquisitions and trades ( like the Ramirez one.) By the article referenced by NuHo, clearly Bob was very involved before he became principal owner( his family long being the majority owners)

That said, people do change, and maybe he has changed. For my part, I don't buy that "we can't spend much because we are in a small market" junk. I do not expect them to spend Yankee size dollars, just match the other teams in the Central. I hope to see the total salaries increase in the future.

I do think that they tried to skirt issues they weren't comfortable with, but who wouldn't. AND Indiana fanatic, I am fairly bright, but I don't think they answered questions completely openly. It is like when the family is travelling, and my daughter asks "when will be there" and my answer is "as soon as I can get there", or "we'll know when we are there". Those are the answers I expected.

I hope the PBC is winning divisions and World Series before 2015, but I doubt it. I agree with getting as much depth as you can, but the trading of cheap valuable power hitting outfielders for a number 5 starter, a singles hitting outfielder in AA, and a single A pitcher who can't throw strikes is silly, to me. But I know I am in the minority. Better to have held out for a potential number 4 starter and a power hitting prospect.

Q,

"Maybe, but the government stepped up only when the publicity turned negative and in attack mode.  I never once heard the government or media question steriods back in '98, and if they did, it was not an outcry like today."

I agree.  I don't think anyone really suspected much until much later than 1998.  I'm not applauding the government for stepping in.  I just don't know that we'd have the policy that we have today if they didn't.  I remember some accusing the media for turning a blind eye as well.  I don't know if that's true or not.

"I completely agree with this statement, but to be honest, it doesn't affect me directly.  The players association never pushed for the testing even though some/many of those players were being blocked by a user.  Why did they fight testing if so many of the players were being blocked by a guy that's stats were blown out of proportion?"

Doesn't affect me either.  I'm not concerned about me.  I'm concerned about people not getting a fair shake because someone ahead of them is using.  As far as the Players' Union goes, I think their leader is despicable and I'll save you my diatribe on that topic.

(To background noise of typing and Morse Code...)

News Flash...

This just in...

Nutting Hostage hates Bob Nutting, and refutes the Pirates owner's latest comments...

News at eleven.

As the Grateful Dead once sang to a nice country beat, "Please don't dominate the wrap, Jack, if you got nothing new to say."

@21

I have even heard some media members even say that they were guilty of not further investigating years ago.  I know that the subject came up when the one reporter noticed Andro in McGwire's locker and then the only arguement was that it wasn't a banned substance.  

Regarding the Players Union leader... we have the same opinion.  Of course, people in that position tend to get strong opinions on both sides.  He doesn everything in his power to manipulate the system to turn it into a bargaining chip.  I can't imagine doing that... seems immoral at times.

From Buster Olney's blog . . .

"The red-hot Rockies probably will wait another month or so before determining whether to dangle such players as reliever Huston Street on the trade market, sources say. They do not have interest in the Pirates' Ian Snell."

Well, so much for that I guess.

   MAHOLM HAS HIS JUKE!

   GIVE PAUL THE BALL!

   BRANDON NEEDS TO HIT BETTER THAN RALPH KRAMDEN!

   FRANK AND NEAL ARE WORKING ON A NEW DEAL!

   HOW SOON IS NOW? NUTTING HOSTAGE SAYS WOW!

Speaking of the Rockies...

How about them being led by our former fearless leader... Jim Tracy!  I don't care what kind of success he has with them, I'm still glad he's not the Pirates manager.  

Like it or not, a professional sports team is not required to win, regardless of how their facility is funded.

I do not believe for a second that the FO does not want to win.  You have to clean the dog crap out of the yard before you mow the lawn don't you?  That is what is happening now...nothing more, nothing less.

Staying in contention come trade or no trade will simply be a bonus to the PLAN...DO NOT COUNT IT OUT...but try not to worry about which group pulls it off.  Could be anyone at this point...here's hoping it's most of the boys out there right now.

Re:  'How Soon is Now'

I now have that song stuck in my head.  Of course, there are much worse songs to have stuck in your head.  At least I enjoy this tune from The Smiths...

Anyone else envision Bob Nutting singing a line from that song to NuHo..

You shut your mouth

How can you say...

I go about things the wrong way?

I am human and I need to be loved

Just like everybody else does.

@naje:

in 4 years the process of trading McCutchen, Alvarez, Lincoln, Andy Laroche, and Tabata will begin.

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Why people think the fire sale of players approaching free agency will suddenly stop in 4 years is beyond me. It happens over and over and over again, regardless of the GM.

@SufferinBuccotash

This happens with most small market teams.

I'm sorry, but I really don't see why anyone expects this team to compete any time soon.  I see no one on the major league roster who is an elite player, and only one who has a realistic chance of becoming one.  Freddie's an above average 2B between the doubles and the average, but he lacks the power of a true star.  At AAA and AA...  no position players at least.  Plus, the mediocre quality of this year's trade bait of Wilson, Sanchez, Laroche, etc...  Well, if you couldn't get a true stud for Jason Bay, I'm not seeing much coming out of that group.

You don't win championships with a team full of average players. You might get to .500, but that's it.  The current FO has brought in one elite level talent in their time here, and they've traded one away.

There may be a plan here, but I'm going to need to see more before I believe in it.  Littlefield and Bonifay both had plans as well...  They just didn't work out.

Sufferin...love the handle!

Remember, though, NH and FC have a plan and the plan has several parts:

demolish the current, below-average rosters at all levels in order to get as much talent and depth as possible;

turn the rosters at each level into competitive, productive talent pools;

bring the best of the bunch to the big leagues and win;

finally, REPEAT the first three steps as needed.

Have faith Suffering, this isn't Littlefield or Bonifay...have faith that these guys are doing something not seen in Pittsburgh since Syd Thrift's days...give these guys a chance to recognize that they either drafted or traded for Alvarez, Tabata, AnLa, Lincoln, et al...

Hey, PItt has given Wannstedt plenty of time to build a winner...too bad he has no idea how to coach them...

Stupid

@naje

Good break down of the plan... let's just hope their talent evaluations have improved, but I agree that's the plan they are looking to accomplish.

@WhatsWrongWithYOUPeople

Good, insightful post!

insight on new thread

Okay, I'll post it...

Ants Marching ========================