Morning links: On that Torres trade

Wow! I have never seen this place quite so dead. Good Morning A-SY-LUM!

I tried to tell all you guys that my Red Sox loving buddies are still mad about Moss getting traded.I'm not making any predictions YET,but this dude is a player.BTW he played some 1st base in the minors.

Why are we still talking about Mujipur and Sarajule?DK you are trying to start sumpin aintcha?

The Smizik piece is a good read and probably true since I haven't seen much interest from any team in Dougie this year. The truth hurts sometimes, but why does Mr. Smizik always have to be so negative, "In the upcoming season, where the defeats again promise to be many"? Didn't he see what the Rays did last year?

Okay, guess everyone has packed it in. I'll turn out the main lights, but leave the hall light on in case someone is wandering around......

Nice piece on Brandon Moss, but I have to say that while the article was good, the player has knocked himself down a couple of notches in my eyes.  If the team/doctors instructed him to stay off his feet during his initial recovery, that should be his number one priority, not going hunting.  As anyone who has ever climbed a tree stand or even a ladder knows, it's not possible to do without putting ALL of one's weight on each foot individually for at least a short time.  Plus, what if he had fallen or slipped and wrenched the knee further?  Does anyone think he'd have the stones to tell the team what he had done?

I know everyone's glowing about Moss because he plays hard and seems like just a swell guy, but I'm going to have to add one of two other words to describe him:  Irresponsible or stupid.  Or both.  You choose.

Good morning Asylum. I haven't posted in few days or so. Hope everyone is resting comfortably in their jackets with their meds.

Which is older news? DD not getting resigned because of his outspoken character or the Pirates signing two pitchers from India? :)

First exhibition game today. GO BUCS!

@PI Stingray

I don't remember who it was (maybe Mr. Smizik), but one of the PG writers recently addressed the reasons that a Rays-like season is not likely for the Pirates: the failure to draft top talent in the past.

....ONLY 47 DAYS UNTIL THE PNC PARK HOME OPENER !!!!!

Every time I read about Pirates hunting for everything but a winning season, this story pops into my head:

Colorado Rockies rookie shortstop Clint Barmes now says he was lugging a package of deer meat he got from teammate Todd Helton, not a bag of groceries, when he fell and broke his collarbone.

www.usatoday.com/.../2005-06-10-barmes-story-update_x.htm

It appears that the primary return in the Salomon Torres trade was the exit stage right of one Salomon Torres, as far as the PBC was concerned.

I mean, I know they are not Littlefield, but who trades an underpaid closer within their own division and gets nothing back?

@PI - I hate to tell you, but the similarities between the 08 Rays and the 09 Bucs ends at a similarly bad previous season.  The Rays had an Ace (Kazmir), a power hitter (Pena) that blasted 50 the year before, a stud 3B (Longoria), a top talent at CF (Crawford) and a number of other good players (including David Price who came up and was lights out).

The Pirates have a bunch of B level talent and a couple of guys that have performed like A level players once or twice.  I hope I'm wrong, but everything I read about this team screams 95 losses.

In the absence of our much revered and now traveling JAL, I present a somewhat substandard installment of the ...

THE OFFICIALLY UNOFFICIAL PBC BLOGS AND MLB LINKS:

- Bucs Dugout: Stolen Bases: Again, That‘s Not the Problem:

http://www.bucsdugout.com/

- WHYAVS: The Road to 17: Baseball is Back :

http://whygavs.com/

- MVN PBC.: PIRATE REVOLUTION: PITTSBURGH LUMBER CO. : SANDLOT SWASHBUCKLERS: Spring Training Catchup:

http://mvn.com/mlb/pirates/

- Raise the Jolly Roger: There‘s A Game Tomorrow!:

www.raisethejollyroger.com

- Mondesi’s House: The News:

www.mondesishouse.blogspot.com

- Hyzdu Headquarters: Pud Galvin:

http://hyzduhq.blogspot.com/

- The Burgh Blues: Coming Friday to TBB (interview with Daniel Moskos):

theburghblues.mlblogs.com

- The Green Weenie: All the News Fit to Print:

www.oldbucs.blogspot.com

- The Bleacher Report: 11 MLB Players who have to Deliver in 2009:

bleacherreport.com/.../87380-mlb-hot-stove-updates

- In Clemente Weather: BA Top 100:

inclementeweather.blogspot.com

PBC NEWS & NOTES (TODAY’S TOP PBC STORIES):

- PBC Homepage: Unburdened by labels, Snell on track for fresh start:

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/index.jsp

@ Lumburgh: Right with you on the "what was he thinking?" part of the post-surgical hunting expedition.

On a positive, happy note I am glad he is a gamer and gives it his all. Climbing up into your tree stand when you are still on crutches during an off-season when you are supposed to be rehabbing (eventually) and then competing for a starting OF job is just dumb.

You know, the talent these guys have to make it to this level is, in my opinion nothing, less than a gift. It astonishes me how completely unaware some of them are as to how they should be treating that gift.

If I were the PBC (who of course paid the medical expenses) I would fine him.

Jose

@ Wieters: I think the point to the TB comparisons though, and a valid one, is that there can be a marked improvement in year-to-year performance. Provided, of course, your budding stars don't fall out of tree stands and do their situps.

Last month I did a little calculating and posted that the starters from last year could possibly swing upwards of 20 - 25 wins as group this season simply by progressing at a rate of improvement of about 15%.

That was pooh-poohed by many in January, but now that camp has started and some of these guys have come in demonstrating that they have worked hard over the off-season, I am seeing more folks thinking the same way.

World Series material? This team ain't there yet. Better than .500? I think that is a very real possibility.

Hey, I just heard the PBC just signed these two guys from India... : )

Jose

Torres was dumped for two reasons....

1. The lingering issue over the academy dispute.

2. He was a salary dump.

Pure and simple.

Personally, I don't like the fact that Snell is participating in the WBC.

He had a crappy year last year and owes it to his team and himself to do everything he can to ensure he is well positioned to have a rebound year in 2009.

This is a rare instance where I am going to not back the player and say that Snell got this one wrong.

Wait! - Brandon Moss is a bow hunter????

Well that changes everything. I take back everything bad I've ever said about him.

He may now be my favorite Pirate.

We bow hunters are a close bunch.

;-)

Jose,

India should field a team in the WBC. With Rinku and Dinesh leading the way, how could they go wrong?

;-)

@ NH: On India in the WBC: Absolutely!

Have you ever found a bow while hunting? : )

Jose

Good Morning, Plenty, Wieters, Dookie, Jose, Joey Bats ...

And NH! "Wait! - Brandon Moss is a bow hunter???? Well that changes everything. I take back everything bad I've ever said about him. He may now be my favorite Pirate. We bow hunters are a close bunch."

Right on, there hunter man! I think Lumbergh should lighten up a little on Mossy ... I mean, look, a man can't do EVERYTHING his doctor asks him to ... a real man would be a wuss if he did! And just because Moss is under contract with us, he's not a piece of meat to just roll over when it's time to recover ... when it's time to hunt, a man's got to find a way to hunt!

I think adults are pretty much like kids in that, OK, they know it could take awhile to get their timing back, but they're going to play whiffle ball at the family reunion just like everybody else!

@ NH: Speaking of Snell, I agree. If there is a pitcher with promise who stood to gain a lot from an increased off-season focus and effort during ST, it was him. The PBC needs to find a good sports psychologist and have him/her attached surgically to Snell's brain.

Negative ST prediction: Snell will pitch his way out of the starting rotation. Between focusing on the WBC and his general predilection for missing the point to what he is supposed to be doing, Snell will become yet another "could have been."

Jose

Lets say, hypothetically, if AdLa starts out the year performing well (April, May), do the Pirates approach him with an extension?

I say yes for a number of reasons

1. We don't have anyone to replace him. Pearce is ok, but he has not shown anything at the big league level really. Plus Laroche is better defensively. Hinske? He will be gone after this year, especially if he puts up good numbers.

2. The market. Laroche, especially with his brother here, would probably be willing to take lower guaranteed money to avoid hitting the free agent market, especially after seeing what happened this winter (Abreu, 1 yr., etc.). Unless he is an allstar this year, no one is going to pay him more than 7 mil next year. Like many of these free agents, his price will go down.

I say why not approach him if he starts the year well? At least until that 1st baseman from North Carolina gets here ;)

@ Bay: Good morning!

Have to disagree there. It is not being a wuss to follow the rehab schedule. It is not being a wuss to not take the chance to impair your team's chances at success.

The PBC does not have the talent to cover that sort of loss. Injuries can happen on-field and that is part of the risk. Increasing the odds by tree-climbing is not smart.

Jose

Are our memories so short that we forget the terrible season that Torres had in his last season with the Pirates? It's not much of a stretch to think that a 35-year-old pitcher (at the time of the trade) with a 5.47 ERA that was serving up some serious BP pitches all year might not have much left in the tank. The Pirates used and abused his rubber arm for three seasons before that with great results.

It turns out the FO might have pulled the trigger a little quickly on the trade, and that's where the academy part might have played in. I'm not so sure I'd want to continue to employ someone whose performance had slipped and was suing me either, really. Also, Torres DID still have value, so trading him while his value was still relatively high (rather than waiting for him to suck for another year, then trading him) didn't seem like all that bad of a move to me.

Making trades isn't an exact science. We remember and seethe about the misses, but if a GM hit on every trade and transaction, he'd be employed somewhere other than Pittsburgh.

Good Morning, Plenty, Wieters, Dookie, Jose, Joey Bats ...

Baywatch - you are on notice.  Just like the University of North Carolina has no D, Duke has no "o".

@Lumbergh wrote re: Morning links: On that Torres trade

on Feb 25, 2009 2:20 AM

Nice piece on Brandon Moss.........

___________

Two thoughts on offseason things players do.

1. You cannot limit what they do such as riding a bike, skiing, basketball, hunting or whatever.  You don't own the players right to live his/her life.

2. As a player you have to be expected to show up in camp/ST in the best shape possible to perfect you job.

There is a line there and one has to determine what it is for them.  Hunting was not a big deal to me for Moss but the tree climbing should have given him second thoughts.  But each his own right?  What if he tripped getting out of a car or truck?  Would we blame him because he should not have taken a ride?  Maybe in the offseason we should lock up all the players in the asylum. With the padded walls and all they should not get hurt right?  We can keep them nice and safe for the next season.

Nothing says more about the plight of our beloved Buccos than that Top 100 Prospects list:

Only 3 of the top 100 for a team that has been betting the ranch on filling the stable for the future.  It's early in this game, I know, with the new regime only really throwing themselves into this course last July, but 3...!  It will be a long, long road, fellow inmates.

Wieters at number 1.  Anyone know Littlefield's current whereabouts so the inmates can take a road trip and beat the living crap out of him?  Oh yeah, where is Moskos on that list?

@cullen

Agreed.  Approach LaRoche now to see what it takes.  Aside from moving Moss, we don't have a 1B on the horizon.  

And unless you are a level 1, top tier A+ FA in the class of 2009, you will not get the huge $$$.  I think that was proven with this year's class.

It will continue to be a buyers market.  

@Duke - Baywatch - you are on notice.  Just like the University of North Carolina has no D, Duke has no "o".

Alright, Buddy! I was born and bred in NC, and believe-it-or-not, I'm no fan of either UNC or Duke. As far as the ACC, Wake has been my team through the years ... always liked those colors! Gotta love that ACC basketball in the main, though.

I'll send you a separate e-mail on a bad experience my mother had with some NC fans back in '68 that turned her off for life. Are you from NC? Forgive me if I asked before ... bad case of the old-timers here!

@Jose - I hear you, Buddy! Have a great day in the Burgh!

Hostage << Personally, I don't like the fact that Snell is participating in the WBC..........This is a rare instance where I am going to not back the player and say that Snell got this one wrong.>:>

Considering the performance that he provided last year, and the fact that there is a new pitching coach, he has no business wasting so much valuable ST time playing in that fantasy league for his newly adopted country.

Frankly, I’m beginning to view him as more trouble than his talent may warrant. He has the tools to be a very good starter, but his maturity is a major concern for me. Giving him that extended contract may have been another mistake; we’ll probably find out if he is worth the trouble this year.

Ken--agree totally on Snell

Cullen--disagree on AdLa.  Think you are dreaming that at this point he will take into consideration the market.  We have an option on Nate in what, 3 years, for 10+ million.  AdLa would fire his agent before he would take something less longterm.  Plus, he aint' worth it for this team.

Jimmy Olsen--I know you see things through rose colored glasses, but you can't really think that the Torres trade looked good at the time it was made, can you?  Inexact science?  It is painfully obvious that the "trade" was because of the issue with his academy, not baseball related.

Morning, Arriba, Ken!

Good morning Bay

How's the weather in Texas today?

Ken,

I've been a Snell fan since his AA in Altoona. I think he has a ton of ability and I'm not quite ready to write him off as a flop just yet. But, like I said, I think he is making a mistake participating in the WBC. At this juncture he needs to be more concerned with the 2009 season for the teams sake, and for his.

Because of his potential, I'm still giving him the benefit of the doubt, but for me, this is the make or break year.

@ madturk: Oh yes you can specify via the contract what a player may/may not do. Standard agreements in sports such as auto racing include clauses that forbid certain activities that could result in serious injury (sky-diving, dirt bike racing/riding, etc).

I certainly have not a single problem with guys hunting or whatever, but doing so during a time when you are medically advised not to do so is wrong. Further, the PBC (or any ballclub) is paying not only for the medical care but also salary per the contract and like it or not, the player is an asset to the club. The Club certainly has the right to protect that asset from undue risk of injury.

Ask the Steelers if Benny-boy is allowed to ride his motorcycle, or K Winslow, or ask McLaren F1 felt when JP Montoya fractured his shoulder while playing "tennis" when in actuality he was (supposedly) riding his dirt bike which was specifically excluded under his contract. He missed testing and a few races which cost the team.

Sorry for the long-winded response, but these exclusions are a reality and in my opinion, a necessity to protect the club and it's assets from boneheaded decisions.

Respectfully,

Jose

After reading the posts about Moss: you either hate him or like him.However I get the feeling that he and Raggedy Andy are polar opposites.One will do all he can and the other will do whatever he feels like.I guess you know who I want on my team.

For what it's worth,Moss might not have that clause in his contract.For all we know the doc might have told him he couldn't damage any worse.We don't know,but if the PBC hasn't reprimanded him they must not be too concerned.So we can make it sound counterproductive or put a positive spin that he wants to play and the "itch needs scratching.Beside the guy sat on a stool to practice his swing(doesn't sound like Lil Stonehenge put forth that much effort)JMO.

Snell truly has major league talent, but I think that he is his own worst enemy. He is no longer just a young kid, and it is time for him to demonstrate his commitment toward helping his team and advancing his own carrier at the same time.

However, is his team Pittsburgh or Puerto Rico?

Re Moss - IMO, he has some potential, hopefully a left handed JBay.

Re Snell, IMO, if he has his head screwed on, he can dominate

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Ken,

Personally, I think the way players are chosen to play in the WBC is silly.

How does it make any sense for a guy born in Delaware, USA will be playing for Puerto Rico???

For Snell, it should be USA or bust.

@Arriba - Your point is well-taken in analyzing the trade from a talent point of view. We did not get equal return. That being said, it wasn't the epic failure of say, an Aramis Ramirez trade.

As hard as it is for us "fans" to understand, sometimes a "good trade" can be as simple as swapping basically equal talent for money. You get back the same talent for less money. That makes business sense. Sometimes you win big and get back better talent than you traded away (for instance, the Rincon-for-Giles swap.) The Torres trade, in retrospect, was a clear miss, we gave away talent and didn't see big gains in either talent or money. (Torres was making around $2.7 million at the time.) I was simply trying to point out that our GM tried to move a player of somewhat modest value while he still had value, a marked improvement over the last regime.

Not so much rose-colored glasses, but the $2.6 million or so saved by dealing Torres probably helped us pay for our 2008 draft, so maybe it wasn't so bad after all. :)

Ken - Overcast and balmy down here today. Hey, that reminds me: We got game here in about a half-hour ... woo-hoo! Go Bootcheck!

Hostage -

>>We bow hunters are a close bunch,<<

Then how is it you didn't already know Moss was a bow hunter?

Rim shot! :-)

On the subject of "What was [Moss] thinking?" I'll just point out this. How many men in their early 20's think they know everything and take advice from no one when it comes to having fun? Ever seen one drive a car?

I think that the only problem that I have with Snell is his maturity. In my opinion, he has the most talent (raw talent) out of all the pitchers in camp, but his powder keg personality is self destructive. There have been many pitchers that carried a chip on their shoulders, good ones can control that emotion ad channel it to the job at hand, and the bad ones let their emotions control them. If Snell finds a way to control his inferno while vacationing in that fantasy league and demonstrates the progress that we expected to see last year, then I will be back in his corner, but right now, I am disappointed in his progress.

Re Snell: What I don't understand is why he feels it's better for him to be in the WBC than spring training? It's not the Olympics, not the Little League World Series. It's an exhibition, just like ST games. Where's the upside? A blue ribbon if PR wins it all?

My bad, guys ... we're an HOUR away from game time. Sorta jumped the guy ... tee-hee ... a little excited.

BTW -- Is there any internet coverage of the game for those of us who don't get Pittsburgh FM stations?

G-Man -- Three things all real men know more about than anybody else:  (1) Driving a car, (2) Building a Fire, (3) Baseball.  

Hostage -- Bow Hunting, does that mean that until your recent adoption of Moss, Adam was your favorite Bucco?

Hadar,

No, Adam wasn't my favorite. I don't dislike him either. He's just kind of there. I kind of see him as a harmless, aloof doofus.

Moss has spunk, desire, and is a bow hunter. - That is a better combination IMO.

@ NH: Better than a bow hunter with a mean streak! Makes for a karma problem in the old neighborhood...

That said, I give Moss points for at least going for it. I hope he succeeds this season.

Jose

Jose,

"Better than a bow hunter with a mean streak! Makes for a karma problem in the old neighborhood..."

Hey! - I resemble that remark.

;-)