Pirates, Maholm agree to 3-year deal

That's awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is a positive accomplishment. Locks him up, gives Maholm some security, gives the club cost certainty when budgeting their meager payrolls of the future and maybe best of all avoids the arbitration process.

Doesn't necessarily make the Pirates any better this coming season like a new player besides a utlity infielder would have, but still a good thing.

@ NH: "Nutting Hostage giveth, and Nutting Hostage taketh away!" I congratulate you, sir, on the insertion of a certain amount of buzzkill... : )

While not momentous, it is a goodly step forward, imho. Maholm's efforts these past few seasons should be rewarded and they have been. Ihope both sides find the terms to be fair and equitable.

Jose

I'd really feel better if they could come to an agreement with Nate.  I don't claim to understand the ins and outs of player salary negotiations.  I just don't want to have to worry about it.  I'd like a solid Doumit, Maholm, McClouth foundation to build my team hopes on.

@Hostage - <Doesn't necessarily make the Pirates any better this coming season like a new player besides a utlity infielder would have, but still a good thing.>

I disagree. This does make the Pirates better because now, Paul Maholm has the security of a multi year contract and he can concentrate on pitching. Plus, he avoided arbitration and possibly some bad feelings toward the organization. I predict he will have a great year this year.

SWEET!!!

And Sir, NuttingHostage, Sir:

You couldn't praise TPTB w/o making sure you had at least one criticism, could you. *G*  I was all shocked and awed reading "This is a positive accomplishment."  Holy carp!  He said something nice!  Then, my worldview was restored by "their meager payrolls of the future."  I really did laugh out loud.  Mrs. of Lochsby even asked what was going on.  "Just NuttingHostage, hon." *G*

Thank you, kind sir, for not forcing me to realign the heavens to deal with this new Sir NuttingHostage Sir, sir.  You are fairly balanced, as always.  (Fairly off-balance, too, but that's a discussion for another day...*G*)

Here.  Have a flower. @>-,-`--,----

GOOD MORNING, MY NEIGHBORS!  Let me be the first to tell you that it's only:

15 DAYS UNTIL PITCHERS AND CATCHERS!!!

give Paul the ball

@ Lochsby: As Obi-wan once said: "Balance must be restored to the Force." Or something.

WWNHD (What Would Nutting Hostage Do?) indeed?

@ NH: You know I am just teasing! Without your counterpoint, things would get dull here!

Jose

until pitchers and catchers what?

DK,

Don't you have this backwards?

"Salary figures were exchanged last week, with the Pirates filing at $3.8 million, Maholm at $2.65 million."

Didn't Maholm file for $3.8M and the Pirates file for $2.65M?

You better hurry up and fix it or 21 will have plenty to say about rushing the story, journalism, etc.

;-)

Jose and Sir L,

You would be disappointed if I did it any other way.

It just wouldn't be me.

;-)

@ TripleG: Personally, I would rather see one more season from Nate before I committed to a long-term agreement. Not that I do nto think he has the tools, but I keep thinking of one C Duffy and what a marvelous, tantalizing flash-in-the-pan he was.

Not that Nate is in any way a headcase like good old CD, I just think he needs a bit more of a track record, gold glove and all.

I'll just pull on my kevlar undergarments and my Evel Knievel motor scooter helmet now before y'all get on me about my opinion of Nate...

Jose

@ NH: "It just wouldn't be me."

I can hear Sammy Davis, Jr singing in the background now: "I gotta be me, I gotta be me..."

DK,

I'm just here to support the team anyway I can, god willing.

"I'd really feel better if they could come to an agreement with Nate"

I'd feel better if they wait to see which McClouth shows up this year before they commit big, long term money to him.    He had a good year last year overall, but it was a GREAT year and a lot of the perceptions about him seem to be based on his super hot start.

13 home runs, 20 doubles and 3 triples in his first 242 plate appearances - 13, 26 and 1 in the next 420 plate appearances.

I'm not sure the Pirates know what they really have at this point, a little above average or a little below average right fielder.

Jose,

Nate is my 2nd favorite Bucco next to Doumit, but I have doubts about his ability to reproduce last season. - At least from a HR and RBI perspective.

He's definitely a solid major league player with sound fundamentals, but let's not forget that he got plenty of good pitches to hit last year when he had the likes of Bay and Nady batting behind him.

My guess is that this coming season he will again be solid in the field, his average will increase, but his HR and RBI production will decline.

Jose,

Either that or Sinatra's "I did it my way"

;-)

Is good news and I agree with Irate--It doesn't add a player but it makes the team better because it adds stability and stability brings comfort.  Th less worry a player has the better they usually perform.  It also sends a message to players that if yoiu perform you will be rewarded.

JAL,

I agree this is a good thing, but I don't know if I wholeheartedly agree that comfort bring improved performance.

Oftentimes, the incentive to produce to be awarded a promising contract also produces good results such as the big years players often have in a so-called "contract year" heading into free agency.

I think some professional athletes produce their best when their back is against the wall.

ALRIGHT!  Not such a slow news day afterall.

Waiting on Hinske now...

@NuttingHostage - "You better hurry up and fix it or 21 will have plenty to say about rushing the story, journalism, etc."

Exactly what are you referring to?

Hostage

Some do perform with backs against the wall, others have stated they drop in performance was affected by contract concerns.  

Good news. Savor it because good news and the Pirates don't often cross paths.

Great news!  Paul seems like a guy who won't regress.

I would have posted sooner but I was trying to find a way to include mentioning the new uniforms, sleeves, and Doug M's leadership in the clubhouse

Good morning Inmates...

Indeed, very good news.....but I have seen too many players digress after signing a multiyear contract. I'm not going to predict that this improves the team, but I will acknowledge that it helps stabilize the staff looking forward and tends to send a positive message that success will be rewarded.

Good morning everyone!

Wow!  I get online a little later than normal and have 4 threads (including OS) to get caught up on.  

News about Paul's contract is fantastic!  I am so glad they were able to work something out.  He deserves it...Nate -- Are you listening?

I also got done reading the link from Q & A to the old story about Maholm and that he was able to weather all those events and be the pitcher he is...wow.  

Hi, all.  I agree w/ everyone's assessment that the Maholm signing is a good thing.  DK mentions that it will cover all of his arbitration years.  I wonder if that means ONLY his arbitration years or if options of some kind may be included.

I don't necessarily agree that these contracts always guarantee a positive influence on the player's upcoming year - we have only Ian Snell to remember.  However, I say strongly that I am not suggesting that this will be what happens to Maholm.  Only that some players apparently seem to have trouble dealing with it.

I'll be very interested to see Maholm's numbers and try to extrapolate from that to imagine what Nate wanted.

The Bucs are going all the way, all the way, all the way, yes the Bucs are going all the way, 17 in a row this year !!!!!

Richie,

Save it for tommorrow.  Celebrate the good new WHILE we can!  Reality will still be there tommorrow.

Bob

Roberto never bobbled a ball to throw behind and catch him of gueard for money.

Mr. Gibson never through one under the chin for money.

Pops did not give out family stars for money.

They all played the best they could every day for the love of the game.

When money is installed love and performance given are not equal anymore.

It most definitly adds to the equation: sometimes it is positive motivation and sometimes it causes an anxiety filled player.

bad bad keyboard

Sir L,

"15 DAYS UNTIL PITCHERS AND CATCHERS!!!"

Since you are the timeline guy, I thought I would bounce this off of you but certainly I'm interested in anyone else's take as well.....

We all have heard Nutting, Coonelly, and Huntington talk about the importance of accountability and how everyone with the Pirates are accountable to do their jobs.

My question is, by what point in time is it fair to say Huntington struck out in terms of achieving his stated off season goals of adding a righthanded power hitting outfielder and a veteran starter to the club and ask that he be held accountable for not doing his part?

Opening day? Is that fair?

And please don't say that Hinske, if signed gets Huntington off the hook. Hinske is lefthanded and really only replaces the likes of Michaels, Gomez, and Mienky on Huntington's season by season revolving bench.

And Monroe doesn't qualify either, he was signed to a minor league contract.

So my question is, at what point in time is it fair to point a finger at Huntington and say, "you did not do your job and failed to achieve your stated off season goals"?

Last off season Paul who wanted the ball set as his priority to eliminate distractions.  He worked on his physical and mental state and pitched well.

He just did the same thing for this season and a few more.

which one do you think will have game preparedness closer to his rim, a player who has elimated all distraction as part of his personal developemnt or a player who decides to take a path known to all to have no positive end for either side and to not lock up anything more than the coming season.

Really give Paul the Ball.

My only rerquest from Paul with the ball is now buckle down and get a little meaner out on the mound.

JosePagan - I agree with you. I think I need to see one more good year out of Nate before offering him some bucks.  I am thinking Nate was the benficiary of the Jason Bay and Xavier Nady's hot bats in the first half of last year. Waiting until next year may cost the Pirats some more money to sign Nate, but it's worth the chance.

@Hostage - My question is, by what point in time is it fair to say Huntington struck out in terms of achieving his stated off season goals of adding a righthanded power hitting outfielder and a veteran starter to the club and ask that he be held accountable for not doing his part?>

Opening day is very fair. Although, when Opie realized that he was not going to accomplish his stated goal, he said that a lefty would be just as good as a righty. I do not remember him changing his goal on a veteran starting pitcher.

To All You Non-Fans of Freddie Sanchez, HERE YE HERE YE!  I came across these interesting tidbits last night regarding the 2008 season and Steady Freddie, namely:

Sanchez in 2008

Led all NL 2B in double plays for the second consectuive season;

Ended the season with an 83 game errorless streak at 2B, fininshing second behind Brandon Phillips in fielding % at that position;

Committed a NL-low seven errors in 653 total chances (.989 percentage)

Hit .346 after the all-star break;

And there's people on this blog who want to get rid of him?  Ii don't understand.  Perhaps his only shortcomings are HRs and low walks.  Other than that, come on ...

NH, I think it's two different goals you're asking about - not one and the same.  Certainly, on Opening Day, if no veteran starter or RH power hitter are added by that day, then he failed to achieve that objective.  However, it is a giant leap to say that he failed to do his job.  I suspect his job was to try to find those two types of players within certain guidelines - not at all costs.

Getting an option that lets them control Maholm's first free agency season really makes this deal.  Players are always reluctant to do that.  Huntington deserves a lot of credit for getting this done.

Irate,

Opening day sounds fair to me too.

BOBDH<<save it>> funny guy

Good signing. Maholm is a steady pitcher with a solid temperament and work habits. He's the guy for up and coming Pirate pitchers to emulate. If only Snell and Gorzo could develop the focus that Paul displays then they would have a very nice core group.

Hostage, if there were numerous right handed bats out there to get that fit this teams current needs then I would already say that he has struck out. But free agency didn’t offer too many opportunities and as far as a trade for one is concerned, we couldn’t find a team that had what we wanted and liked what we had to offer. He failed to find a deal, but that isn’t a major failure in itself.

However as you and I have said before, expelling Bautista only to turn around and say that you would like to add a versatile right handed bat is somewhat confusing. The player that he was prior to failing as a starter was exactly what they were wishing to add this year a versatile right handed utility player.). I hope that there was some legitimate reason for throwing him out the door, because it doesn’t make sense to me baseball wise.

Good news! Let's hope he continues to pitch well this season and beyond.

Earlier this morning I voted for him for the fans bobblehead even though I personally think bobbleheads are ridiculous and unnecessary.

Story about another pitcher--Pirates' Grabow learns about Erie winters

www.goerie.com/.../article

BREAKING NEWS

Work finished on a new wing for the asylum--the Dufus Dolt wing

So we got Paul locked in for up to four years if we exercise the option year; while it’s only one more year, I’m pleased to se the addition of that option.

making a date for pass or fail on any issue just might be looking for a fight.  iI think it common sense that when the brass says we want so many widgets for next season, he is talking opening day.

Uglyken explainns any significance to it.

we may cheer every five days this season to give Paul the ball, but:

TODAY PAUL TOOK THE BALL

JJ,

Thanks (I think), I get lucky once in awhile.

Also, I like artbitration years cost certainty, as well as, brave attempt on managements part to not completely give-up on free agency.

Bob

Bob

Great news!!!!!  Now just lock up McLouth and LaRoche to long-term deals and in the future when the Pirates finally start winning, these last two offseasons will be seen as the turning points for the franchise!!

Good to see Maholm signed.

He should be one of the few bright spots on the team this year.

Bel89

Welcome to the asylum.  Straight-jacket and meds at the front desk. Wing assignment to come soon

Agree with implied--a few more of these moves could point to this as being when we finally started putting together a good core for the franchise. It'd be nice to see Paul improve a bit more and maybe--with some help and some luck--get into some cy young talk. Hey, if we're gonna say the season as a team is a wash, why give up on the personal accolades for just ONE year? ;-)

""expelling Bautista only to turn around and say that you would like to add a versatile right handed bat is somewhat confusing. The player that he was prior to failing as a starter was exactly what they were wishing to add this year a versatile right handed utility player.). I hope that there was some legitimate reason for throwing him out the door, because it doesn’t make sense to me baseball wise.""

Ken:

It was pretty plain, during Jose Bautista's last days as a Pirate, that he and Russell were not seeing eye-to-eye, at all.

In fact, Bautista seemed to have found a home way in the back of Russell's doghouse.

So, while on the surface, what you say is true - that Bautista might have been a viable 2009 right-handed bench option - he wasn't going to make sense for the ballclub, if his manager didn't want him, and was never going to start him, combined with Bautista himself being unhappy with his reduced role, and with his manager.

Sad to say, the Bautista/Pirates divorce was probably the best move, for both parties.

Some good news at last.  I'd like to think that the Pirates curse will not affect Maholm at this point - he's had his troubles earlier in his career.

Impliedi,

"Now just lock up McLouth and LaRoche to long-term deals"

My personal estimation of the likelihood these Pirate veterans will be back in 2010:

Jack Wilson - 0%

Adam LaRoche - 0%

Fred Sanchez - 50%

John Grabow - 50%

Personally, I don't think these guys are done salary dumping yet and if they had their druthers would be rid of all 4 of the players I listed today if they could have found interest from other clubs and/or a reasonable return.

Moose,

Are you the PMB Moose?

""Are you the PMB Moose?""

Yeppers, Hostage. How goes work?

Opening day is definetly sufficient enough time table, there are too many FA's still out there....you mean to tell me the pirates couldnt come up with a one year offer for a jon garland type pitcher??  there's still time and plenty of options...but....

there's NOWAY Larouche will be a pirate next year....but, who takes over his spot? steve pearce?

NutH_ i think an opening day appraisal of NH's goals is fine, but as another poster has said it must be evaluated with guidelines, ie he has a $54M budget and his current salaries are +/- $50M. So what can he do with that $4M to accomplish his goals?

It may be 2 guys at $2M each (eg it could have been say a PedroM at 2-3M and Rocco at $1M, or trade JW and use that money to sign a hgher-salary guy), but I don't think it's fair to say we should have signed Pat Burrell and Jon Garland for $20M  total.

Also, I am not convinced that JoeyB, at $2.4M/yr, would have been our right-handed bat savior either.

However, I must say, that I am voting for a Nut_H avatar bobblehead night!! ;)

@NuttingHostage wrote re: Pirates, Maholm agree to 3-year deal

on Jan 29, 2009 11:16 AM

Impliedi,

"Now just lock up McLouth and LaRoche to long-term deals"

My personal estimation of the likelihood these Pirate veterans will be back in 2010:

Jack Wilson - 0%

Adam LaRoche - 0%

Fred Sanchez - 50%

John Grabow - 50%

Personally, I don't think these guys are done salary dumping yet and if they had their druthers would be rid of all 4 of the players I listed today if they could have found interest from other clubs and/or a reasonable return.

++++++++++

I have to agree with that NH.  I think that is right on the button.

They are saying on ESPN that there are alot of guys left that might have to sign one year deals.....most of course, would be out of the pirates price range, i used jon garland as an example, not knowing what he signed for....

@STLR--

Opening day is definetly sufficient enough time table, there are too many FA's still out there....you mean to tell me the pirates couldnt come up with a one year offer for a jon garland type pitcher??  there's still time and plenty of options...but....

What difference does it make, if they sign someone or not, the starting lineup is set, if they sign someone a starter has to go to the bench or be traded, thus you might as well look for a trade instead of a free agent.

Think about it, if you sign an Abreu, Moss or Morgan doesn't play and probably don't stay, I am sure the Pirates tried to get a Free Agent  or two, just didn't work out, doesn't mean they did not try.

They could use a solid pitcher if one is still available and affordable.

Management failing or passing has nothing to do with a FA signing.

The problem with trading JW is that there is NOBODY in the system to take that spot, so, you trade JW for what you are looking for now...and then have to sign another guy to take his spot...might end up spending more in the long run.

Paul Maholm signing is good and I like it.  My question is that why is it seen as a big accomplishment when we really do not gain anything.  I mean we would have him anyway, just have to adjust the salary every year until he becomes an FA.  So we get an option on one FA year.  Did it really buy us anything worthwhile if you are looking long-term?  Other then feelings from the player and management during the arbitration process this buys us nothing.

As for Nate I don’t see signing him until after this year.  Still needs to prove that he can maintain at the least an average level of performance.  I think he can but what difference does it make to wait another year?  None the money will be the same now as then.  If either does not like the terms then a trade could be made that may bring us more prospects or a veteran where we may need one.

i think i would take abreu over those 2 guys anyhow...im not sure of their minor league status or not...i know moss is still questionable with his knee and morgans status is just questionable...

Moose << he wasn't going to make sense for the ballclub, if his manager didn't want him >>

Baseball has become too much of a business today to allow talent, whether it is accompanied with poor attitude or not, should not be squandered. We just traded a catcher that fit the same profile, but we were already had an alternative backup and the trade produced another. We had no alternative right handed utility player that can play infield and outfield well. These guys don’t have to like each other; they just have to work together. I know it isn’t exactly the same thing, but I too have been made to work with people that I didn’t respect; however, we did the best we could.

If these people are professionals, then they be able to work together until another suitable replacement player can be found to replace him. The PBC is not very deep in talent yet, a less hasty expulsion may have provided a better return via trade.

It is truly water under the bridge now, he’s gone and he wasn’t one of my favorite players anyway. However, if JBats turns out to be a bum looking back several years from now, then it was no big deal. On the other hand, if he goes on to have a successful carrier then it was an obvious mistake. I support most of NH & FC’s moves thus far, but I’m somewhat suspicious of this one.

i also understand that the pirates would not, are not in the market for a bobby abreu type player.........isnt he left handed or is he a switch hitter.....either way, he said he wanted to add a RH power hitter....i see none FA wise anyhow, a trade is a welcoming thought.....but who do we trade???

I just don't get Some Pirates fan's infatuation with Jon Garland.

Here is Garland, in 2008, with the Angels:

14-8 record, 4.90 ERA, 196 2/3 IP, 237 hits allowed, 23 HRs allowed, 59 BBs, 90 Ks, 1.51 WHIP.

Here is Zack Duke, in 2008, with the Pirates:

5-14 record, 4.82 ERA, 185 IP, 230 hits allowed, 19 HRs allowed, 47 BBs, 87 Ks, 1.50 WHIP.

Put Duke on the Angels, and he'd win 14. Put Garland on the Pirates, and he'd win 5.

The only difference between the two is Garland is right-handed. They are both pitch-to-contact, ground ball pitchers.

There are many of us who complained when Huntington signed Duke for $2.2M this year, to avoid arbitration. Saying Duke is now overpaid.

Yet, some fans think Garland is woth the $6.25M the D'Backs gave him?

@STLR--

Opening day is definetly sufficient enough time table, there are too many FA's still out there....you mean to tell me the pirates couldnt come up with a one year offer for a jon garland type pitcher??  there's still time and plenty of options...but....

I was only using Abreu as an example, FA's have to be better than what we have, Dunn has more power, but his price last I checked was 12 or 13 Mil, If he doesn't have a job come opening day, he might be agreeable to lower salary, the PBC is playing their cards the way they should play them, patience.

Hey Goose,

Great to see you here.

If you have time, stop in more often. The people here are terrific and I miss talking with you.

Mad -- There is a club option for a year after Maholm's arbitration years are over.

UK -- Hinske if/when we sign him is an upgrade over Bautista.  

Juan,

"However, I must say, that I am voting for a Nut_H avatar bobblehead night!!"

Oh goodness we wouldn't want that. - It would frighten all the women and children.

;-)

i was only using garland as an example...not pushing for him.  but they are looking for a veteran starter, he fits that bill..most of the big names, ok all of the big names are not what the pirates are looking, i understand that....i am trying to be patient.....there is still plenty of time for them to nab somebody.  but, if he doesnt get what they were looking for by opening day....wouldnt you say he's failed?

Alright, so I know we don't need any more pitching "projects," but in reading the CBS Sportsline rumor blog (and having a friend who is a Cubs fan), would it be worth taking a shot on Rich Hill? He's out of options and is 29. He took a step back last year, but has also looked decent in other stints. He's a lefty and reminds me a bit of Duke, but could be available cheap? Thoughts? Would you take him, and if so, for what price?

DK- the same blog also speculates the Pirates might be one of 6 teams interested on the guy, know of any details? Or is it purely some speculation?

Leadoff,

"What difference does it make, if they sign someone or not, the starting lineup is set"

Couple comments....first, I don't agree the lineup is set. Morgan is penciled in for leftfield by default. - Currently there are no other options. Second, the difference is that the GM identified a RH bat as a need and stated that was one of his targets. If accountability is the theme, he needs to be accountable if he fails to deliver.

"Management failing or passing has nothing to do with a FA signing."

Agreed the answer does not have to be solely a FA signing, but again, the GM himself identified the two needs the club had going into 2009 was a RH bat and a veteran starter. He and his bosses have put the stake in the ground that everyone in the organization is accountable. Neal needs to be willing to be accountable as well.

Or do we start making the same lame excuses for the players?

Well Adam LaRoche would have hit .300 except that the rest of the NL had all these really hard throwing pitchers with all kinds of nasty breaking stuff and it just didn't work out. What difference does it make that he only hit .166? He still put on the uniform and showed up for work each day right?

Where do you draw the line with the excuses?

""I know it isn’t exactly the same thing, but I too have been made to work with people that I didn’t respect; however, we did the best we could.""

Oh, I've been in the same boat.

But I've also been employed, in the past, where my immediate supervisor, for whatever reason, hated me, the ground I walked on, and everything I stood for.

And it became an impossible situation to be successful in, work-wise.

I've also been employed in a place where my supervisor loved the work I did, constantly praised me, and rewarded me with bonuses.

Then, when that supervisor retired, the new guy, brought in from outside the organization, didn't like me, at all.

And that exact same effort from me, in the exact same job I had been doing for years, and doing well, was suddenly not good enough.

This was wrong, that was wrong, the other thing needs redone. Etc. I could suddenly do nothing right.

And that new supervisor fired me, the first chance he had.

So, sometimes, life goes on. I wish Bautista the best. But, I feel, that like Jose Castillo before him, Bautista will be no more than a fringe major-leaguer. A journeyman bench player-type.

We'll see.    

Hadar,

"Hinske if/when we sign him is an upgrade over Bautista"

Personally, I don't think they are comparable because to me they play entirely different utility roles.

Hinske is a lefty bat that strictly plays the corners.

Bautista is a righty bat that can effectively backup three middle positions (CF, SS, and 2B). In his case, he can also play the corners.

I really see these two filling two entirely different utility roles.

To me that would be like saying Mienky is an upgrade over Rivas.

Just some input on another way to look at it......

@STLR--

Failed is in the eye of the beholder, signing or not signing someone doesn't mean NH failed or passed. Everything is relative, you have heard the old adage, sometimes the best trade is the one you did not make, same with a free agent.

Moose,

Just admit it.

You are a Bay and Bautista hata and that is all there is to it.

;-)

""If you have time, stop in more often. The people here are terrific and I miss talking with you.""

Hostage:

i don't post much on the Asylum. Although I do read the comments, frequently.

Be that as it may, I miss you as well. 21 is having a field day on the PMB, in your absence.

@NH...So, do you want management to sigh any RH bat or veteran starter just to say he filled those needs?  If that's the case, we possibly end up with a Matt Morris situation.  

I'd rather management wait for the player they feel fits our team best than sign one based sole on whether or not they are a veteran or hit right handed, but maybe that's just me.  :-)

JH <<upgrade >>

Hinske is a left handed bat and the PBC was hoping for a right. Hinske can play adequately all four corner spots, but Bautista can play them as well and even play the middle infield if needed. Moreover, he may have had the strongest arm on the team aside from Doumit. Finally, we already had him under our control. There was/is no guarantee that they would find another right handed utility player.

Only time will tell if it was an upgrade. He stands on the opposite side of the plate than what they said they really needed out of a FA. I agree however, that Hinske is the best definitely the best out of the players that the PBC have been said to be in talks with.

@Hostage--Agreed the answer does not have to be solely a FA signing, but again, the GM himself identified the two needs the club had going into 2009 was a RH bat and a veteran starter.

Correct NH adressed them as needs, just as the starting pitching needs to be better, just as the defense needs to be better, just as the field managing needs to be better. Drawing the line is aribtrary.

As I said to STLR:

Failed is in the eye of the beholder, signing or not signing someone doesn't mean NH failed or passed. Everything is relative, you have heard the old adage, sometimes the best trade is the one you did not make, same with a free agent.

Goose,

That little freak is obsessed.

Don't be a stranger, I think you would really like all the great people here.

@NuttingHostage wrote re: Pirates, Maholm agree to 3-year deal

My personal estimation of the likelihood these Pirate veterans will be back in 2010:

Jack Wilson - 0%

Adam LaRoche - 0%

Fred Sanchez - 50%

John Grabow - 50%

Personally, I don't think these guys are done salary dumping yet and if they had their druthers would be rid of all 4 of the players I listed today if they could have found interest from other clubs and/or a reasonable return.

++++++++++

Unfortunately NH, I agree with you.  Exactly what this Pirates franchise continues to do, trade consistency for hope.  Which is why we end up back in the same cycle of losing year after year.  You guys know my feelings.  The Pirates currently have 2 players on their roster they have consistent batting averages and numbers at the end of every MAJOR LEAGUE year for more than 1 or 2 years and that's Freddy & Adam.  Which means, bye-bye to both, because the team likes to pin its hopes on inexpensive possibilities, instead of mid-price range certainties.

LOL @ Hostage

Dmac,

"If that's the case, we possibly end up with a Matt Morris situation."

All due respect I think that is somewhat of a defeatist attitude. You can't give up trying to improve the club for fear of making the same mistakes Littlefield made. If Huntington is as good as Bob Nutting says (best managment team in baseball if not all of sports), I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect that he can improve the club without making the same mistakes Littlefield did. - If not, then he is the wrong GM and they should hire someone else.  

"I'd rather management wait for the player they feel fits our team best"

You'll be waiting a long, long, long time for that. Not too many good players worth having fit the Bob Nutting model of minimum pay.

;-)

NuttingHostage: <Opening day? Is that fair?>

Absolutely it's fair to use opening day as a deadline to evaluate if TPTB have achieved their stated off-season objectives.  Cutting it off at Pitchers and Catchers, or even the first ST game, would be too early.  By my book, the off-season ends when they start writing the W-L records in ink.  (FYI, 66 Days until MLB's Opening "Day," April 5th)

If they haven't achieved one or both objectives, I am curious as to what measures you would endorse, accountability-wise.

I, like Capn, am sympathetic to the notion that the PBC does not have silly money to throw around.  Yes, they need to spend to win.  I'm sorry.  The Rays are a feel-good story, no doubt, but I can't see that model as being long-term successful.  On the other end of the spectrum, spending just to spend does not guarantee wins, either.

Thus, I would not demand their heads on pikes (Do people still do that?  Our "blood thirsty" gals would love it. *G*)  Neither would I be fully pleased.

The market for right handed power was thin at best, so I would be more forgiving on that front, but there are several old pitchers still available, though, and one of those, on a reasonable contract, is a realistic expectation.  By opening day, yes.

I'm not a Paul Byrd fan, but I'd take him.

I am, for whatever goofy reason, a Livan Hernandez fan.

Randy Wolf-- Ambivalent.

Ben Sheets would be a coup of enormous proportions.

What's that? Pedro?  Don't talk about.. Pedro?  You kiddin me? Pedro?? ... I just hope we can win 75 games.

Srsly.

Imp and Hostage

No one is every 100% or 0 % likely to return.  There is always something that can happen to change things.  I would say Jack and Adam are at 10%.  Remember the end of last season when many thought it was 0% likely that jack would be back?

""You'll be waiting a long, long, long time for that. Not too many good players worth having fit the Bob Nutting model of minimum pay.""

And here,  I thought that was the Coonelly Matrix.

@JHadar wrote re: Pirates, Maholm agree to 3-year deal

on Jan 29, 2009 12:03 PM

Mad -- There is a club option for a year after Maholm's arbitration years are over.

______

Yes I mentioned that in my post.  Question was what did we really buy long term?

My personal estimation of the likelihood these Pirate veterans will be back in 2010:

Jack Wilson - 0%

Adam LaRoche - 0%

Fred Sanchez - 50%

John Grabow - 50%

They will be replaced when someone better comes along to take their places, money has something to do with everything and every team, unfortunetly we only asssocate it with the Pirates and fail to see that economics is a major issue with most sports franchises these days, it's nice to know we have one on stable ground at this point and generally making wise decisions.

@@NuttingHostage wrote re: Pirates, Maholm agree to 3-year deal

My personal estimation of the likelihood these Pirate veterans will be back in 2010:

Jack Wilson - 0%

Adam LaRoche - 0%

Fred Sanchez - 50%

John Grabow - 50%

Personally, I don't think these guys are done salary dumping yet and if they had their druthers would be rid of all 4 of the players I listed today if they could have found interest from other clubs and/or a reasonable return.

__________

Although I stated earlier that I agreed let me clarify that I think they would or will be gone but not due to a salary dump as much is it due to attitude and play along with the salary that goes with it.  Why overpay for a product that is not worth the money.  Want to pay 3 million for a Gremlin or use it to buy a Mercedes?

NH...I said "possibly"  and most people on here recognize me as one of the more optmistic folks here.  I was just trying to say that management identified the needs of the team, but hasn't found anyone that they would fit those needs, given their parameters.  

They're not filing holes just to say they've filled them.

@SirL-

If they haven't achieved one or both objectives, I am curious as to what measures you would endorse, accountability-wise.

Think we could send them to the Dufus Dolt wing, they get no chips and dip, I know I probably won't go to ST or Opening day over this, How dare them?

Leadoff,

"They will be replaced when someone better comes along to take their places"

You're going to have define "better".

If by better you mean a better ballplayer, I strongly disagree.

If by better you mean a less expensive ballplayer, then I agree.

Morgan is not better than Bay.

Moss may someday be as good, or even better than Nady, but it is highly unlikely he will be in 2009. Or, he may never be as good as Nady.

@DMac-

They're not filing holes just to say they've filled them.

You couldn't put it any simpler than that, makes sense to me, but what do I know?

Dmac,

I know you are optimistic. I just think your expectations of the Pirate front office are not high enough.

"but hasn't found anyone that they would fit those needs, given their parameters. They're not filing holes just to say they've filled them."

Lete me ask you this....

Would it be acceptable if Andy LaRoche hits .200 this season and strikes out looking 100 times and says, I just couldn't get good pitches to hit and I didn't want to swing just for the sake of swinging?

Point is, there can always be an excuse if we look hard enough but at the end of the day you just have to look at the results. Did it get done or not?

Goose,

I think Bob's innermost desire is a club comprised of 25 players making minimum wage.

Coonelly has some kind of kookie value matrix too that results in the actual signing of very few players.

JAL & everyone else,

Using whatever criteriea you want, state your estimation of the return of those for in 2010.

JAL -

Wilson - 10%

LaRoche - 10%

Sanchez - ?

Grabow - ?

@Hostage--

They will be replaced when someone better comes along to take their places"

You're going to have define "better".

If by better you mean a better ballplayer, I strongly disagree.

If by better you mean a less expensive ballplayer, then I agree.

Morgan is not better than Bay.

Moss may someday be as good, or even better than Nady, but it is highly unlikely he will be in 2009. Or, he may never be as good as Nady.

I was only referring to the people on your list, Morgan could have been added to your list and Moss also, we do have Cutch and Tabata waiting in the wings.

I stated the starting lineup was set and it is, however, how long it is set is another issue, Cutch and Tabata will be coming and they still could make a trade, by the way if I were the Pirates I would take the trade route for a solid outfielder and pitcher.

Wilson - 5%

LaRoche - 15%

Sanchez - 50%

Grabow - 30%

Hostage--you wrote "I think Bob's innermost desire is a club comprised of 25 players making minimum wage"

Isn't that Business 101?  I think the owner of any business would love that, just most can't get away with it--though some mange to try skirt the law and have a bunch of employees under minimum wage :)

JAL,

I could make a joke about the Pirates and a roster full of players from Mexico.........but I won't.

;-)

JAL,

"Isn't that Business 101?"

I don't think so. All of the corporations I have worked for have embraced the concept that they need talent to be competitive in their field and recognize that you have to pay competitive wages to retain talent.

NH & UK

2008 - Bautista 128 Games  .213 / .313 / .405  15 HR  40 BB

2008 - Hinske 133 Games .247 / .333 / .465  20 HR  57 BB

Bautista, of course, was the starter at 3B for the Bucs last year.  NH you are probably right about Bautista's versatility, but you are overweighting it.  Next to pitching, what this club needs is offense.  Hinske provides more hits, more power, and more patience than Bautista. (And at a better price)

While I like to see good defense, as I stated yesterday the drop in defense has to be measured against the gain in offense.  Defensive differences are slight, and defensive stats are not reliable.  Fact is the only stat known to actually correlate well with winning is OPS.  

Hinske with Vasquez is a definite upgrade all the way around over Bautista with Bixler or Cruz.  Add in the differences with the manager and it gets even more one-sided.  

@NuttingHostage wrote re: Pirates, Maholm agree to 3-year deal

on Jan 29, 2009 12:54 PM

Lete me ask you this....

Would it be acceptable if Andy LaRoche hits .200 this season and strikes out looking 100 times and says, I just couldn't get good pitches to hit and I didn't want to swing just for the sake of swinging?

Point is, there can always be an excuse if we look hard enough but at the end of the day you just have to look at the results. Did it get done or not?

___________

A couple of points with your comparisons.

Andy was not the only player we received in the deal.  The deal was to bring in younger and hopefully better players for the longer term onto the team.  Andy had good stats in the minor leagues (this is how you may judge right or wrong how a player will perform in the majors).

If they keep Andy or any other player on the field when we do have a back-up at that position then I will see it as a failure to improve and on the accountability issues. The accountability is not if the back-up is better but to show that their play is not acceptable by making them sit on the bench for a spell or longer.

Your point about the “excuse” it seems to me that you use it at times for unreasonable correlations to try to bash the management team, justified or not.  I would like to see how this year turns out with the young players, the coaching, managing and what the FO does from mid season on based on the performance of the players and managers on the field and in the office.

I know you have issues with the FO and you have the right to feel the way you do.  I agree at times with you on some of the points you state.  It’s just when someone else is trying to say something positive or in support of an issue it’s always turned to the negative you have for the management.

Can we wait until the season starts or even mid season to see if we should bash the players or the management on what they have or not have done to improve?

As I stated before I have not been sold the bill of goods on the management and no one should be until we see the changes take place.  Some have, but more so behind the scenes if you will because it does not directly affect the team’s make-up today.  I am willing to give them this year and see what is done.  Then all heck will break loose if they do nothing to improve the players on the team.  

Sir, NuttingHostage, Sir:

I know it was a longish comment in the middle of other stuff, but did you get the chance to read through my reply?  Just curious if it was overlooked, or what. *G*

In particular, I was interested to know what measures you would take, with regards to accountability, and maybe a word or two on the pitchers mentioned.

Even if all Pirates starting pitchers have excellent years, which they are capable, when you stack up Pirates hitting versus other division rivals we don't stand a chance. That's why when I hear people spending countelss hours debating Doug M. I am puzzled. We need proven BIG bats ahead of "leadership". Don't you think?

Cubs (Soriano, D. Lee, Soto)

Cards (Pujols, Ludwick, Ankiel)

Astros (C. Lee, Tejada, Berkman)

Brewers (Fielder, Braun, Hardy)

We're in trouble.

""I think Bob's innermost desire is a club comprised of 25 players making minimum wage.""

Hostage:

We tried that. In 1997. And the funny part is, it almost worked.

@LarryZ wrote re: Pirates, Maholm agree to 3-year deal

on Jan 29, 2009 1:27 PM

Even if all Pirates starting pitchers have excellent years, which they are capable, when you stack up Pirates hitting versus other division rivals we don't stand a chance. That's why when I hear people spending countelss hours debating Doug M. I am puzzled. We need proven BIG bats ahead of "leadership". Don't you think?

Cubs (Soriano, D. Lee, Soto)

Cards (Pujols, Ludwick, Ankiel)

Astros (C. Lee, Tejada, Berkman)

Brewers (Fielder, Braun, Hardy)

We're in trouble.

_____________

If as you say the pitchers have an excellent years then none of these players will reach base nor do any damage to us.

@LarryZ--

   Where you have Fielder, Braun, Hardy,we will have Doumit, McClouth, LaRoach, then in the near future,  throw in Alvarez, Cutch and Tabata, not to mention Freddie, maby not power, but a top shelf hitter, and you have a team that will score runs.

""I think Bob's innermost desire is a club comprised of 25 players making minimum wage.""

I would like to have these ballplayers minimum wages.

LarryZ: <proven BIG bats>

Pirates (Doumit, McLouth, ???)

It's the ??? that concerns me.  AdLa had respectable overall numbers, along the lines of the others you cite.  I have no fear that Doumit and McLouth WILL continue to produce at or near the same rates as 2008.  AdLa worries me from the pre-May 15th perspective.  I'm trying to think if we have pop anywhere else...

And seriously, it's the pitching that needs to improve the most.

JHadar,

IMO you are making the wrong comparisons.

Compare Bautista to Gomez, Rivas, and Vasquez.

Compare Hinske to Mienky and Michaels.

Because that is the roles I see them assuming.

JH the major difference between them is that one is RH and the other is LH. Without a RH on the bench, other teams can more easily take advantage of our lineup in specific situations/match-ups.

No doubt that JB failed as a starter, but if you look at his numbers when he was the super utility player (starting both infield and out field positions) prior to his starting role, they were exactly what we were looking for but couldn’t find this off season.

My contention is that JBats is more suited as a utility player than as a starter; only time will tell who the better bench player is.

Late to pick up on the thread, re Duke v. Garland - while the numbers look virtually identical then why is one 14-8 and the other 5-14? Could it be the defense behind the pitcher? In this case defense might logically include the bullpen, charged with defending the starter's chance to win. In Garland's case his bullpen probably didn't implode on him that often, whereas Duke's probably did, frequently (Osoria, Bautista for example). So Duke has potential wins erased by bullpen failures. (Also by digging deep holes early in some cases. How often did Garland get yanked before the 5th inning?)

Also, there seems to be general agreement from what I read, that the Pirate defense was/is subpar, meaning that BIP that should be outs turn into hits and errors and ultimately runs. That wasn't true of the Angels.

This is not to say that Duke would be a 14-8 pitcher on the Angels necessarily (or that Garland would only do 5-14 on the Pirates), but it seems to point out that any veteran starter, no matter how good they are, will suffer with a suspect defense/pen. NH wants to bring in that kind of vet, but without a much more reliable pen (very iffy at this point) and a much better infield and outfield defense (remember that Nate may be a gold glove, but he doesn't get to a lot a balls that faster guys get to, Morgan is no wizard with the glove, and Andy LaRoche had a ton of errors, while the middle is considered somewhat below average around the league no matter how much people love Jack Wilson), the results are not going to match those that come with a better supporting cast.

Much as I'd love to see better pitchers brought in, without other improvements it won't help much. The 1970s Pirates proved you could win even with mediocre defense and pitching if you had the bats to beat the opponent into submission with. Remember how often they'd be down 3-4 runs going into the late innings and then put the lumber to work? But these Pirates aren't in that position. We have mediocre-to-awful pitching, subpar defense, and weak bats. Given the tight wallet, do you build a new lumber company or a pitching machine with tighter defense/bullpen to support it? We're not ever likely to have both in the foreseeable future. I don't see where the focus is going yet, but with upgrades needed everywhere, one arm isn't going to do much, even if it's Cy Young caliber.

@Sir--

Your correct, pitching is the most important need, defense goes hand and hand with pitching, the starting lineup should play adaquate defense, not great by adaquate.

We will score runs. We have a little speed, a little pop and some punch and judy hitters.

Some of scoring runs is up to the manager, possibly he might want to get his team to be more aggressive on the base paths. He could put the steal sign on a little more for Nate this year, I know there is a fine line between him running a lot and wearing him out.

Jose B is gone and good riddance.  He was given every chance to fulfill his potential and failed.  Then when he was held accountable he pulled an attitude.

Duffy was a much better player that we could have kept if you wanted someone who gives up on the team.  I wish him well, as for Jose he didn’t do much when he left here.  Now if he gets his head on straight and performs well, good for him.  It would never have happened here though.  Some people just need to be shown that they are not guaranteed of anything and have to produce to play.

Now if you are looking for accountability there is an example of it.

madturk: <Duffy was a much better player that we could have kept>  

Actually, didn't he angle for his own release or somehow else get himself declared a minor league free agent?  I'm 90% certain that the Pirates could NOT have kept him, no matter how hard they tried.  I mean, this is a guy who, when confronted with a demotion, bailed on the assignment and refused to report.  Then, given a fresh chance to show his ability, he bailed on winter ball and just up and booked his own ticket out of Mazatlan, literally.

Sorry, but that's just childish.

NH -- OK,

Vasquez  2008 -  .290 / .365 / .430

Bautista 2008 - .238 / .313 / .405

Gomez 2008 - .273 / .322 / .333

Rivas 2008 - .218 / .267 / .311

____________________________

Hinske 2008  .247 / .333 / .465

Mientkiewicz 2008  .277 / .374 / .379

Michaels 2008  .228 / .300 / .382

Vasquez upgrade over Bautista.  Hinske slight upgrade over Mientkiewicz, tremendous upgrade over Michaels.  Bautista better than the two guys who are not coming back.

Both moves look better than standing pat.  

Out for awhile.

mad....that was never my point... we disposed of  Paulino correctly....we didn't dispose of Bautista correctly. The debate keeps getting away from the point that I was using to support Hostage's assertion that FC is capable of making mistakes. Baseball is a business, and a team of our caliber needs to squeeze the most out of its assets (even if trade is the only option).

It wasn't the trading of A. Ramirez to the Cubs that was such an outrage, it was the return. This is just a bench player that we are discussing, but the PBC should endeavor to squeeze everything they can out of the assets it controls. I think that we got something measurable on the 40 man roster for jogging Ronnie and that we should of at least received likewise for the wasted asset.

Mad posted:

Now if you are looking for accountability there is an example of it.

This is not directed at you Mad, just me kind of confused with this topic.

Let us examine the word "Accountability", have the Pirates set a graph and charts that adequatly describe accountablity standards, I really don't know what or to what degree accountablily is? Do we send people to their rooms? do we bench them? Do we trade them? Do we yell at them? Do we do what the Pens do and just not dress them? Possibly someone could let me know what the criteria for accountablilty is and what the Pirates plan is to enforce accountablility and what anyone else thinks the Pirates should do to enforce accountablility.

Let me say this first...... I DO NOT like JBats....the PBC need to utilize its assets as wisely as possible.

Demoting a starter to the bench is sending an adequate message to the rest of the team.

He is gone, but it MAY and must stress that I only stated that it MAY have been a mistake. Only time will tell.

UK -- I see what you're saying about Right Handed Hitter coming off the bench.   Hinske and Vasquez have been playing bench roles successfully and both are better hitters than Bautista.  (I did only say that they -- actually I started with Hinske  were upgrades, not ideals.)  Looking at the bigger picture, the make-up of the whole bench, I would have to agree that a right handed power hitter would be good -- in fact a right handed power hitter would be good anywhere, eh?  Not sure if Bautista is that guy or not though.  

@NH...Honestly, though I am pushing for Andy to do well,  I don't think they'll let him flounder that long if his numbers are that poor.  

I have high expectations...but I also have faitht that management is doing the best it can.  

RE:  Duffy...Sir L is right...Duffy got himself released and became a minor league free agent.  Funny thing...the team he was assigned to in Mazatlan has earned a spot in the Carribbean World Series.  

IMO, IF Duffy had done well in Mazatlan and stayed for his entire assignment, I think he'd be pushing Morgan for the LF job...I know that's a big if, but it coulda happened.  Now he's fighting for a 4th OF spot in Milwaukee...I do really hope he does well, but I think he could have done better here if he had given this management a chance.

I have so busy today that i missed this great conversation.

Defense stops offense in every team sport I can think of.  Out that list the only two I find really scary are Pujols and Berkman.

""This is not to say that Duke would be a 14-8 pitcher on the Angels necessarily (or that Garland would only do 5-14 on the Pirates), but it seems to point out that any veteran starter, no matter how good they are, will suffer with a suspect defense/pen.""

Kid:

Exactly. Which is why I felt that Jon Garland would not have been a good fit for the Pirates.

If Huntington was ever serious about bringing in a veteran starter, said starter would need to be a RH high K power arm. Such as Ben Sheets.

Roy Halladay led MLB in CGs in 2008. CC Sabathia was 2nd.  Sheets was 3rd.

A pitcher like Sheets would lessen the impact of a below-average defense and bullpen. Since there is less contact per Sheets-pitched game, and the bullpen is not used as much, per healthy Sheets start.

Sheets has injury issues to be sure, but he was exactly the SP Huntington would have loved to have signed.

However, Huntington can't sign Sheets - and stay under budget - without first trading Jack Wilson, or Feddy Sanchez, to free up the necessary monies.

So if Huntington is going to fail at his stated goals, when the offseason is over, said failure will stem from his inability to work out a trade for Wilson.

UK -- Looks like a few comments in between what I was responding to.  Also agree that the return for Bautista was not what it should have been.  Who DID we get?  

But then I was never one who claimed the management never made mistakes, or that you can evaluatie management on the basis of a single player transaction.

JH

The thing is this. We wanted a versatile right handed bat for the bench. Who doesn’t right? Well here we have JBats but he doesn’t get along with JR so that isn’t going to work out long term. There are teams that may be willing to switch right handed utility players with just a little extra sweetener from us since we want him out.

Oh well….. we did what we did, and all we can do is move on.

JAL << Defense stops offense in every team sport I can think of. >>  

True.  In baseball, though, defense is far and away about pitching.  

@Ugh--

Oh well….. we did what we did, and all we can do is move on.

Seems like a very difficult thingfor some bloggers on this site to do. Guy from Georgia Tech for example, I can't bear mention his name.

""Also agree that the return for Bautista was not what it should have been.  Who DID we get?""  

JH:

Robinzon Diaz

JH

I count pitching as defense.  I use the term in more figurative than literal sense.  

Moose,

Welcome!  Good stats around noon comparing Zach Duke and Jon Garland.  Insightful and appropriate.

HostageSage,

Do you sound more acerbic because you have your avatar back?

Or does you picture give you 'voice'?

Either way, I'm glad it and your voice are back!!

By the way, HosageSage:  Bautista played SS about as well as Gomez.  Not valuable as back-up there.

Bautista makes nice "argument" as backup, but reality of $2.25 million salary and inconsistent fielding makes him a poor choice as utility.  Glad he's gone, especially if backup catcher turns out to be a player.

Leadoff--guy from Ga tech?  You takin bout Stephon Marbury?  :)

This is exhausting, keeping up.

NH - give the FO until the last day of ST. A lot could happen once teams assemble and start to play.

DK - I like the way you put the 2005 story on Maholm together. I wasn't living this side of the Mississippi back then, and didn't read the PG daily. That was a "new" story to me.

I'm glad that Paul is secured financially. The fact that he can be traded for what other teams would consider an "easy" salary obligation to meet scares the peewaddlin out of me. I've thought that a lot about Doumit too, so I'm double scared.

Good day, inmates.

Anyone know what wing I live in, btw?

@DMac--

Honestly, though I am pushing for Andy to do well,  I don't think they'll let him flounder that long if his numbers are that poor.  

Andy is a very good ballplayer, all the tools are there, with him it is a matter of settling down, quit pressing and a thumb injury that is healed. I did not like Tracy, but the one statement he did make that made sense to me was "it's in there, and it will come out", with Andy that is way I see him, I hope they have as much patience with him as they have with his brother.

@JAL--

--guy from Ga tech? You takin bout Stephon Marbury?

Can he catch?

Looks like we've got so many conversations going on that we're all playing off phrases and minor points in what everybody else is posting.  I don't think there's all that much misunderstanding goiing on -- just quite a few points that different ones want to make.

From earlier in the thread...my estimation of chances of high priced players STARTING the 2010 season on our roster.

Wilson - 75% (we won't get what we want for him)

Sanchez - 60% (see Wilson comment)

LaRoche - 20%

Grabow - 0% if healthy, 40% if not.

Maholm - 100%

Doumit - 100%

Frankly, I think that we need a new thread......... one verifying that a deal is done.

JH

Stephon thinks he can do anything :)

Maholm Overflow Thread

============================================

No new topic, just an empty space to continue.

@leadoff...I think he will do very well.  What I meant was that if his numbers are as poor as NH put up in an example for an extended period, they'll sit him...at least for awhile.

I personally think Andy and Moss are going to be bright spots on the team this year.

Nurse DK has created a new thread for the Maholm discussion.  So let's get the patients or ants marching....

@SirLochsby wrote re: Pirates, Maholm agree to 3-year deal

on Jan 29, 2009 2:08 PM

madturk: <Duffy was a much better player that we could have kept>  

Actually, didn't he angle for his own release or somehow else get himself declared a minor league free agent?  I'm 90% certain that the Pirates could NOT have kept him, no matter how hard they tried.  I mean, this is a guy who, when confronted with a demotion, bailed on the assignment and refused to report.  Then, given a fresh chance to show his ability, he bailed on winter ball and just up and booked his own ticket out of Mazatlan, literally.

Sorry, but that's just childish.

__________

I know he was childish and gave up on this FO. The example was that if you want to keep a headcase or non preformer we could have tried to keep him compared to Jose B.  Sorry I can;t call him bats when he could not hit that well.

Ask and ye shall receive...

www.youtube.com/watch

@leadoff wrote re: Pirates, Maholm agree to 3-year deal

on Jan 29, 2009 2:14 PM

Mad posted:

Now if you are looking for accountability there is an example of it.

This is not directed at you Mad, just me kind of confused with this topic.

________-

It could cover any of the itemsd you listed.  Depends on what works for the individual in question.  That we can not tell since we are not in contact with them each day.

@DMac--

I personally think Andy and Moss are going to be bright spots on the team this year.

They have the talent if they just get a good shot, I agree that they were good pickups, after watching both of them play last year I see why so many thought these guys are going to be good.

I guess the differance between us and the Yanks and Boston is they never have to wait for a kid to develop on the major league level like we do. If they bring a kid up he is either good enough to play everyday for they get someone who is.

@Mad--

Joey Bats wasn't a head case, JR did not like him, for what ever reason, he got along good with the team and he liked it here, it isn't taking long for us to figure out if JR doesn't like someone he's leaving. Tracy hated Jack and wanted him out of here and almost got his way.

@uglyken wrote re: Pirates, Maholm agree to 3-year deal

on Jan 29, 2009 2:45 PM

JH

The thing is this. We wanted a versatile right handed bat for the bench. Who doesn’t right? Well here we have JBats but he doesn’t get along with JR so that isn’t going to work out long term. There are teams that may be willing to switch right handed utility players with just a little extra sweetener from us since we want him out.

__________

When Jose B was traded there was no quote about needing a right handed bat in the line-up.  we got was the best that would be given for him.  Which tells you how others felt about him as well.

DMac I could not agree more. No matter how much the venerable Hostage wants to bash him too many people had too many good things to say about Andy as he moved through the Dodgers system to give up on him.

Mad…….they waited for a good even trade to develop when they traded jogging Ronnie for another catcher, they could have waited to try to get a similar player for Batista. Some teams that wouldn’t part with their RH utility player for what we have to offer now (they may not have RH depth either) may be willing to give that player up if we had JBat to throw in with the deal too. The fact that he performed well enough to get the chance to start is testament to his ability to play. He has a poor relationship with JR, that doesn’t mean that he would not be of value to another manager.

Again, my point is and always has been that we squandered him as an asset, not that he should necessarily remain here as a valuable piece of the puzzle. Moreover, I have clearly stated and restated that I DO NOT care for him as a player, just that he still had value.

When was JB traded, and what was one the two things that were at the top of FC’s wish list going into the start of FA season? I think that they were well aware of what their needs would be. In my opinion, they were too hasty, that’s all.

Water under the bridge.

@leadoff wrote re: Pirates, Maholm agree to 3-year deal

on Jan 29, 2009 3:39 PM

@Mad--

Joey Bats wasn't a head case, JR did not like him, for what ever reason, he got along good with the team and he liked it here, it isn't taking long for us to figure out if JR doesn't like someone he's leaving. Tracy hated Jack and wanted him out of here and almost got his way.

_____

His attitude did change when he was not starting.  They went through this for two consecutive years before he was cast away.  In my crystal ball (see’s backwards only), he did not live up to his potential and had every chance to do so.  Keeping him for what the salary would be was neither worth the time nor trouble.   Not to put all the blame on Jose but sometimes for players a change in scenery is needed.

Like I said maybe he will put it together somewhere else but it was not happening here because of him and or Tracy or anyone else that could be to blame.  

@uglyken

"Water under the bridge."

With a golf ball in it?

I may have started a few land bridges with all the balls that I put in the water.

So long as the bridge leads to PNC Park you are a good. Shall we toss you in with the engineers?

My degree is of the ME persuasion.