Pirates Q&A: To punt or not to punt?

The Cubs uniforms? Dodgers? Both boring and unattractive.

Ugliest today and since the 1970s still are the Houston Astros.

The early Floria Marlins and Tampa Bay uniforms were something out of a swimwear shop at the beach.

Don't forget the Chicago Whitesox shorts..

Uniforms???

You want to talk about Uniforms???

Uniforms?

I'm just hoping we win another game!

;-)

"The Pirates are older than any of those franchises, but they come across looking like an expansion team when they engage in silliness like the red and other changes."

Hilarious comment DK.  True too.

And thanks for the Dan Sepulveda photo.  That really hurts.

Maybe they could start using the 80's royal blue away jerseys like the Phillies used to have....

Seriously, the sleeved uni's look fine. I used to like the gray "away" hats they had in the late 90's, but the black is the standard.

Someone answer me this. This year, the expert Vegas odds for the Pirates to win the World Series has been set at 150-1, the same odds makers set the 2008 odds for the Rays to win it l50-1. Were the experts suggesting that the Rays were still punting on the year? Should the Rays fans of boycotted last years game because it was plain to all the experts that they were punting on 2008. Why should I take a pass on watching the greatest sport because the so called experts say that there is no hope?

Uglyken,

I will certainly watch the Bucs in 2009 win or lose. But we probably will know if they are going to beat the odds such as Tampa by Memorial Day.

Which would be later than most recent years.

Were the Ray's fans that went to watch their pathetic team foolish?

The experts, the baseball pendants, the people that put their money where their mouth is were certain that the Ray’s were going to be the worst team out their last year.

I haven’t checked, but I believe that the Ray’s attendance was not all that impressive for a team that ultimately went to the WS. What a shame to all those fans that missed out on a season of magic simply because the experts and media talking heads.

Frankly, it’s foolish for a fan to punt on their team before a single game has been played. If games were played on paper in January, then the 2008 Rays would have been the worst team last year.

The truth is that there is no true counter argument to my above post. That’s why games are actually played on the field.

Do what you want, but fans who choose to watch their favorite game are not fools.

You nailed it ugly. I can't fathom how any fan could possibly give up on any team before a single game is played.  My favorite season as a fan in any sport was 1997, The Freak Show.  That team had minimal talent at best.  But, it was one amazing ride.  This year's team has talented baseball players, they just need to bring it all together on the major league level.  Let the young management team evaluate what they have in place before they start spending huge payouts to free agents.  

As for the uniforms, I am thrilled they are bringing back the black alternates.  I hated they took them away and brought those ugly red things into our lives.  

You nailed it ugly. I can't fathom how any fan could possibly give up on any team before a single game is played.  My favorite season as a fan in any sport was 1997, The Freak Show.  That team had minimal talent at best.  But, it was one amazing ride.  This year's team has talented baseball players, they just need to bring it all together on the major league level.  Let the young management team evaluate what they have in place before they start spending huge payouts to free agents.  

As for the uniforms, I am thrilled they are bringing back the black alternates.  I hated they took them away and brought those ugly red things into our lives.  

UK and fellow inmates.  Ok, many say we will improve this year.  What metric should we use to measure whether or not this happens?  Simply count wins or something else?

One problem I have, no offense to anyone in this hallowed place intended, are statements which kinda state "we are going to get better, trust me", so is there someting measurable we can look to to confirm improvement (or show a step back??)

You nailed it ugly. I can't fathom how any fan could possibly give up on any team before a single game is played.  My favorite season as a fan in any sport was 1997, The Freak Show.  That team had minimal talent at best.  But, it was one amazing ride.  This year's team has talented baseball players, they just need to bring it all together on the major league level.  Let the young management team evaluate what they have in place before they start spending huge payouts to free agents.  

As for the uniforms, I am thrilled they are bringing back the black alternates.  I hated they took them away and brought those ugly red things into our lives.  

You nailed it ugly. I can't fathom how any fan could possibly give up on any team before a single game is played.  My favorite season as a fan in any sport was 1997, The Freak Show.  That team had minimal talent at best.  But, it was one amazing ride.  This year's team has talented baseball players, they just need to bring it all together on the major league level.  Let the young management team evaluate what they have in place before they start spending huge payouts to free agents.  

As for the uniforms, I am thrilled they are bringing back the black alternates.  I hated they took them away and brought those ugly red things into our lives.  

>>The best changing of uniforms that any team can undergo is no change at all. It is something of a shame that a 122-year-old franchise has changed as often as the Pirates have, that they really have no bedrock uniform the way the Yankees, Dodgers and Red Sox do. The Pirates are older than any of those franchises, but they come across looking like an expansion team when they engage in silliness like the red and other changes.<<

Great comment DK!

I don't care so much about the uniform garbage since it appears as if they've changed their uniforms many times over their 122 year history, but the part about looking like an expansion team is very appropriate given this 16 year consecutive losing streak.

People seem to have forgotten that the Pirates have won 5 championships with only the Yankees, Red Sox, and Cardinals having more. A team like the Cubs is given much more respect even though their history isn't better than the Pirates. I think that is a depressing aspect of what is going on now with this franchise, and you gave perfect wording for it .... the Pirates are looked upon as not being anything better than an expansion team which some would probably advocate for them to be moved to another city or eliminated altogether.

re: Pirates baseball in 2009

I'm not optimistic about the results;

I do understand the need to build the organization up basically from scratch, but I still do not and will never be happy about Jason Bay being traded;

If this management team wants people to believe in what they're doing, the Pirates need to have a winning season NOW and that farm system better be ranked in the top 10 within the next 2 years.

With all that being said .... I am really looking forward to baseball!!!!

John Perrotto reports NH could sign a free-agent OF this week.

www.news-register.net/.../519979.html

@Bizrow

You almost have to use wins. After all, when the season ends, that is what matters.

Bizrow <<so is there someting measurable we can look to to confirm improvement (or show a step back??>>

That is what the experts are always looking for so that they can make these grand predictions on where a team SHOULD finish before any games are ever played. The problem with those kinds of predictions is that they are almost entirely based on stats, and while past performance has to be considered, there are other factors that people always tend to overlook.

How can one predict the amount of improvement that young players who have still not reached their prime will demonstrate; and who can predict just how much decline in performance one should expect from someone who is past their prime?

Much of the reason that people were surprised by the Rays last year was due to the difficulty of predicting the improvement of the players already there.

Who among the fans here predicted that Nate was going to have a breakout year? However, his teammates went out on that limb and made that prediction prior to the start of last year. Now Nate is predicting that Moss to be a breakout player. That would be good too.

Every indication is that the players are in far better shape (conditioning) than last year, and they are all for the most part still before their prime years. How much will they improve? That is the question. Most of these players have not yet achieved their prime, so …how much will they improve?

The Rays improved a lot more than anyone could have reasonably predicted. That’s my point; it’s hard to tell how much a young team will improve. But it is more reasonable to expect improvement from young players than it is to expect their skills to decline. Hence, they are likely to be a better team than the team that finished the season. How much better? That’s why they have to play the games.

Also, I have one comment for today.

I am tired of hearing about how bring back DD would be bad for the team.

How? How would that be bad?

Because he is not young? Neither is Vasquez.

He doesn't have power? Neither does Vasquez.

He wants to play everyday where we don't have a spot for him? This is not true, he has openly said he doesn't mind having the role he played last year. And he put up great numbers in that role.

Because there is a better bench player to be had? Doubtful, based on the Pirates requirements (cheap, unwanted by anyone else). Is Vasquez, Monroe, Brown or anyone really an upgrade over Doug? Really?

Because he is too expensive? He is cheaper than Vasquez.

He doesn't fit into the long term plan? I argue against that for two reasons. 1) Neither does Vasquez, and 2) Doug is going to make a great coach one day, and this organization needs to hold onto him.

There is no one coming to this team who is a better fit than Doug (financially, talent-wise, team player-wise, or anything else).

Oh yea, because he is left-handed? So. Is this really the deciding factor in who we sign?

Sign him already.

Great work again Dejan.  I agree with the kid about the unis though.  The contrast from a black undershirt to our white/grey uni really provided an aesthetic pop that made the team unique.  And yes, I know it seems as if every team has sleeveless now, but didnt everyone follow the Pirates lead in 1970 as well.  And we can thank the buccos for the late 70s and 80s unis as well.  But we cant apologize for having a classic sleeveless uni that looked amazing.  I'm just not a fan of the sleeves and I don't think I ever will be.

BTW, what team "reintroduced" sleeveless models to the game that the buccos adopted in 2001?

Aesthetics aside...and I like the sleeveless and the red...if the players would rather have sleeves, then I think that's more important.  They're the ones who have to play in them.  

Not worth debating, but if you're going to have sleeves, why not have black sleeves?  The look would be traditional, but with the comfort that the players want. (And it would give the anti-management folks a chance to rant about fake tradition)

{-;

As for the undershirts, lots of teams wear vest uniforms. If the players are going to cry like little babies over wearing an undershirt, too bad. Wear one that's big enough to not be constricting.

As for the Yankees, Dogers and Red Sox, I will grant the first two have stuck with tradition. But don't the Red Sox have a red alternate jersey? And I know they've had more than one cap over the years - including a red one. Cubs have stayed fairly traditional with their pinstripes over the years. But they have an alternate blue jersey. Bottom line, an alternate jersey in and of itself, is fine. In my opinion, it does not make the Bucs look like an expansion team. I liked the red but others did not. When the red billed cap came out years ago, fans went nuts buying them. But at the end of the day, what's important is what's inside the uniform.

If ever there was an embarrassing Pirate uniform, it was the black, gold and pinstripe jerseys and pants mix and match combination sets from the late 1970s.

@ UK/Cullen H - re metrics/improvements

Thanks to both to you for your answers, but.....

So I guess what we're left with is we could lose more games this year, but say we've made progress?

Ugh, thats not going to sit well with the immates

Nurse Ratched, better call Dr Cratchett and reup that order of meds....

By the way, here's a point no one seems to make. The Pirates jerseys are essentially white (home) and grey (road), not black and gold. What's B&G is a tiny bit of sleeve piping and the letters and numbers. The Steelers wear black jerseys (home) with gold stripes white (road) with gold and black stripes. Same with Penguins. So the Pirates wear a lot less black and gold than their counterparts.

Re: the Pirates possibly signing a FA outfielder.

Please look at the stats for the last few years of the guys being mentioned. Craig Monroe, Emil Brown and Jay Payton haven't even gotten close to a .700 OPS the last 2 years...and I've seen a few reports that Payton ain't exactly great in the clubhouse. BTW...Steve Pearce's OPS in almost 200 PA over the last 2 years in the majors...is .725...better than the 2 guys mentioned above. Salazar's numbers are basically repeats of Pearce's except for 100 more plate appearances over the last 3 years. Wilkerson had injury issues last year. Luis Gonzalez is 41 years old.

Hinske is one I would be interested in checking out. But I wish that some people would actually look at numbers and player movement before going nuts.

On the subject of fans "giving up on the team" and deciding not to go to games: It's possible to want to watch this year's team simply to enjoy baseball at a great park, watch the young guys develop, and hope against hope that they contend this year.

However, the logic that some team will be this year's Tampa Bay and it might as well be us seems a bit of a stretch.  The Rays already had pieces in place and were able to build on a successful 2007.  So *maybe* the 2110 Pirates could be the next Rays, but not the 2009 version.  It's not just a matter of scoffing at the experts -- does *anyone* look at the LaRoche brothers (to take one example) and see a pennant-winner?

Beyond that, baseball just isn't set up for rags to riches stories.  Football's salary-cap-based parity makes it hard to predict.  In hocky and basketball, so many teams make the playoffs that even a bad franchise can sneak into the eighth spot once in a while.  But in MLB, the number of teams that make the playoffs is too small and the spending gap too large for teams to make an unexpected leap very often.

In the above, it should be Tampa's "successful" 2007 -- it was a relative success for them but a failure by any other measurement.  Sort of like the best-case scenario for the Pirates this year.

Punting

It is clear to me, given DK's estimate of a $48-50M payroll this year, that the moves made last year were more financially driven than management has let on.  We had $10M sunk in Matt Morris and I'm sure Nady, Bay and Marte would have cost $10M between them.  That would have pushed this years payroll to $60M+ and the team would be no closer to contention than last year.  Not only were the Pirates bereft of minor league depth, they were on the edge of having an expensively mediocre to bad team on their hands.

How could fans not be demoralized by the fact that ownership has spent the last 16 years becoming a model of failure.  By now they should have accidentally won 50% of their games in at least one season.  I get that they are trying to repair it now and I understand why management and ownership gloss over the troubles like they do, but that doesn't make it right.  

A salary cap will probably never happen and the Nuttings do not seem inclined to sell.  As such, we'll have to hope that this management team can do what seemed impossible in the last 16 years...produce a mediocre team that wins more than it loses.  Any success beyond that is gravy.

Wintermute << The Rays already had pieces in place and were able to build on a successful 2007>>

If the Rays already had all the pieces in place, then why did the experts set them at 150-0 against to win I 2008?

Did you think that Nate was going to put up the numbers that he did and win a gold glove? Were you pounding the table that Ryan has to be our catcher? Who really knows what will happen before the games are played.

It isn’t easy to predict how much a young team will improve, especially when most of those players are not yet near their prime; however, it is reasonable to expect that team to improve with experience. Of course talk of the World Series is an extreme reach; but that doesn’t mean that this team can’t improve significantly, and that is something worth looking forward too.

Sorry, that was 150-1, the odds against were pretty bad, but they weren't infinite. ;-)

I will be looking at individual players and see how they developed or falter whichever the case may be.  Looking to see how they play as a team. Who is trying to improve in different aspects of their game? I will be watching the hitting (different fields), running (stealing a base when not expected), catching (routes taken to the ball), throwing (setting up the throw to the infield), Pitching (who is throwing and who is pitching inside and outside as needed), and attention to what’s going on at all times, seeing what players are trying to make a difference in the outcome of the game.

At the mid season and at the end of the year I will have my evaluations on the players.  I will see what the FO concludes and see what they do with the info they have and the changes they make.

This will tell me if I should continue to believe them going forward.  In the meantime I will enjoy each aspect that I listed above. That is baseball!

There are many ways to wage success...like Mad said...not just with wins, though granted wins are important.  

I mean, if pitchers can not give up 6 runs by the 3rd inning would be a great improvement, if you ask me.  That would take some of the onus off the offense to score more than 6 runs to win a game.

@DMac wrote re: Pirates Q&A: To punt or not to punt?

on Jan 27, 2009 4:18 PM

There are many ways to wage success...like Mad said...not just with wins, though granted wins are important.  

I mean, if pitchers can not give up 6 runs by the 3rd inning would be a great improvement, if you ask me.  That would take some of the onus off the offense to score more than 6 runs to win a game.

_______

LOL I guess I should have added that as well for the evaluation process.

I try not to think about what last season could have been if the pitching had done better and the offense performed as it did.  ;-)

DMac -- Well the ERA was only about  5.1, so the other 0.9 run was unearned.  ;-}

"There's no question that my expectation in 2009 is that we have a better team than we did last year,"

When you read comments like that from Bob Nutting, ask yourself who makes him accountable?