Pirates talking to Luis Gonzalez

hmmmm I think DM would be a little better suited for this role than Gonzo...

Throws right, bats left.  I thought we were looking for a right handed bat?

management thinking that Gonzo would be taking the Jason Michaels spot of power on the bench I guess?

Gonzo...........way cool....

More of the same old same old.

But will the fans buy it?

well management now feels that with sleeves we will be in the world series, and with the possible addition of gonzalez we have the game winning hit covered as well....take your money to vegas now and hit that 150:1 odds on the pirates winning the world series

"No question, Luis would welcome an opportunity to come to a team like Pittsburgh".....where they grossly overpay aged veterans way past their prime.  Lets hope those days are over.

Gonzo was a great player, but I prefer Doug for that bench spot.

If Neal wants him, that's good enough for me. Can anyone say Amos Otis, Steve Kemp, George Hendrick? One final pay day before retirement.

Hi, all.  Just getting started today.

I'm a little disappointed to see this news about Gonzo.  I agree w/ those above that I would rather see Doug in that spot on the bench.  Plus, it seems to me that if Gonzo is signed, that definitely spells the end of Doug.  I'm just so tired of a new old bench player every year.  There could be some continuity in those positions, but instead we always have to sign somebody new.

I don't like it.  He's too old.  Way too close to the end of his career.  Plus he had his best numbers during the 'roid era'.

Plus I thought I heard that he wasn't too happy with his playing time last year with Fla.  ( I think he still considers himself a starter)

Here is what I would like to see the Pirates try:                Offer Bobby Abreu $7-8 million dollars for one year.  Tell him that he will play right field -the same position that Roberto Clemente played.  He can become a free agent again at the end of the season.  We will offer him a limited no-trade clause ~ he can pick the 6-8 teams that he would agree to a trade if we wanted to trade him at the deadline.  He could then pick his favorite teams or ones that he thought would be contenders.

Tell him that if he plays more than 130 games for us, he will earn another $500K.

That is definitely either Doug or Gonzo's job; there is no room for both. We should stick with DD and let another have Gonzo. He is a great guy with a lot of class, but there is only room for one of those on a team, and if we are going to have that type of player on our team, then we should stick with the one that is already a fan favorite.

For some of us who were on the fence as season-ticket holders, this would put me on the wrong side of the fence.  If they sign him, I may turn into Nutting Hostage.  

Gonzo sure carried the Marlins when things started to go south on their season, and no offense here, but I don't think we'll ever see a more fluky 50 homer season as long as we all live.

The bat speed is backwards now.  Please sign with the Rockies, you may be at 370 HR next year.  

I also can almost guarantee that DD was steriod free and never had such a fluky season.  I say almost in sarcastic manner toward Gonzo.

I'd love to keep Mientkiewicz as much as the next Asylum member, but looking at the make-up of the rest of the 25-man roster, the need is more for an OF than an IF.  Vasquez will take Doug's 3B ABs, Pearce can/will back up at 1B, and Gonzo does still pose a threat to challenge the Clemente Wall more frequently than DD.  Look at the big picture: this would still be a much more effective signing than Jeromy Burnitz.

I'm not a big fan of signing Doug just because I don't see the fit, but Gonzo makes no sense at all. Not right-handed, not a position of need, not likely to be as good a leader if he still thinks he's a starter.

Abreu makes more sense, although it's much more money, too. Seems like seeing if Pearce can learn to hit a breaking ball is the best move. When he connects, he's the late-inning power potential off the bench.

Dougie can play OF too, can't he?  I know he was primarily an IF'er, but I thought he could play a little OF too.

@ All:  Disclaimer - This is not necessarily an endorsement of Gonzalez.

That said, I will support the line of thinking Robbiesdad espouses. I will back that up by saying that I saw DD play the outfield with my own eyes, it wasn't pretty. I just do not believe he has the wheels for the OF these days and as far as 3rd base goes - well if all of my infielders woke up dead, then maybe. But you have Vasquez and also Sanchez who can play 3rd way better than DD ever will be able to.

We have plenty of Futuility Infielders. OF help is what we need and DD ain't it in my opinion. Not sure if Gonzalez is either, but he is closer than DD.

I'll just let myself out the side entrance here, nice and quiet-like...

Jose

Robbiesdad summarizes why Doug M likely will not be back: Vasquez will take the occasional 3B starts, Pearce the same at first. Huntigton referred to the possible "pinch hitter only" role when discussing Doug at the Friday PirateFest Q&A.

Gonzalez brings more power potential off the bench and may help mentor Moss, in particular,  to reach his own potential and be an instructor for the other OF's, whereas Doug was only a part time OF, if that.

I would love to see Doug M back, but it is becoming more apparent that he'll likely never again be playing for the home team at PNC.

How this comments section has reached about 20 posts without one mention of Derek Bell or Jeromy Burnitz is beyond me.

This would be a terrible pickup, basically just throwing another $2.5-$3 million down the drain (if he gets a similar deal to last year). Combine that with the questionable signing of Vasquez, and we're talking about almost $5 million being wasted on over-the-hill free agent garbage. Sound familiar??

If we waste $5 million on garbage bench players and Ben Sheets ends up with a contract under $9 million, our front office should be ashamed of itself. No need to waste cash when there are some risky, but HIGH reward players still out there.

I can only hope that Gonzo will be the latest in the long line of players who snub the Pirates. God...the thought of going from Baldelli to Gonzo boggles my mind.

It's pretty obvious the Pirates don't want DD back. Maybe Russell felt that he overstepped his bounds last year. Maybe he was too outspoken.

Edit: Sorry, Robbiesdad beat me to the Burnitz mention! His post hadn't shown up yet when I was reading through the comments. Credit where it's due!

This would reek of a Littlefield signing.

Let's get this straight...we can't shell out an extra $1 million for our All-Star, Gold Glove CF...but we can shell out 2-3 times that much that out for a player who is well past his prime and adds NOTHING to our chances of winning in 2009?!?!

"The Pirates are pursuing free-agent outfielder Luis Gonzalez, with their most recent discussion having occurred late last week."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA!

Can you say Joe Randa or Jeromy Burnitz boys and girls???

What a freaking joke.

And how is he any different from what Littlefield did with over the hill rent-a-players???

Oh that's right, it's entirely different because Coonelly and Huntington are doing it instead of McClatchy and Littlefield.

What an insult.

Unbelievable.

Yep, their certainly on the right path and things are being done so much differently.

Jeff Reboulet

Derek Bell

Benito Santiao

Joe Randa

Jeromy Burnitz

Chris Stynes

Jose Hernandez

Masumi Kuwata

and now possibly Luis Gonzalez???

Hilarious. Just hilarious.

Just another step toward a championship caliber club.

He doesn't really want to take the Pirates offer, but his wife doesn't want him around the house.

That David Huntington sure is a swell GM.

Maybe Luis liked the new uniforms.

Nutting,

I'll admit that I had hope for this management team, especially since they pretty much came out in the open and said "there will be no burnitz like signings". If they add Gonzo, all that will have been nothing but lip-service...something Pirate fans should be pretty familiar with these days.

My one point of hesitation about taking what this management team says at face value, is that I've heard it all before from LittleYield and Bonifay. I remember reading quote after quote from LittleYield and McClatchy about how "we are investing our revenue sharing money into our minor leagues/player development". Then...fast forward 3 years...our team is still terrible, LittleYield gets fired...and we read about how we have the most pathetic minor league system/player development system in the league. We learn that we haven't even had a suitable facility in the Dominican.

In other words...all that talk of allocating our resources to strengthen our player development was just that...words.

So, when I hear the new management team talk of avoiding the mistakes of their predecessors...all it will take for me to turn a deaf ear would be a retarded signing like Gonzo.

Yeah, we do need to upgrade the bench...but come on, the management team has made it clear with their off-season moves (or lack thereof) that this team isn't contending in 2009. So why waste $2-$3 million on an over the hill guy like Gonzo. I'd rather spend the league min on a guy like Rob Mackowiak.

Can someone please explain 2 things for me??? 1. since when was Gonzo a right handed power hitter? 2. what is with the "man crush" of DM?  Yes, he's a fine player, but has ANYONE actually thought as to WHY nobody else has even offered or looked at him?  Yes, he played hard while he was a pirate, thats something to be said in itself, he's vocal, yep, thats different too....but....his he going to bring us to the promise land???  NO.  

again, i just want to clear up, i am a fan of DM, but he's in NO WAY the biggest FA that the pirates need....

Do note that DK says the Pirates are talking to other outfielders so Gonzo is no lock to be signed.  

Nutting Hostage (btw, good to see the return of your Bar Sinister avatar - very cleverly done), you forgot to mention, if you go back a few years, Steve Kemp, Gene Tenace and Amos Otis and going way back, Jim Bunning.

Actually, there is a bit of difference between Gonzalez and those guys and the guys on NH's list, those others were signed with a eye on them actually being every day players or starting pitchers and not role players, which clearly would be the case with Gonzalez.

Gonzo's dream was to some day play right field for the Pirates... before he turned 50.

And DK just posted that he changed pursuing to talking too.  Keep calm my fellow posters--no done deal here.

"The Pirates also are talking to other free agents, including outfielders, so Gonzalez is no lock to be signed."  We can only hope & pray.

I heard Bob Nutting say this past weekend that the days of signing older free agents that would block the development of younger players is over.  He used the Randa blocking Freddie a few years ago as an example.  Signing Gonzo doesn't sound like it would be only for the bench and would not block anyone (except mayb the return of DM).  But this guys is too old and on the decline.

How about Bobby Abreu for a year !?

trivia question? HOW MANY LEFT HANDED OUTFIELDERS CAN ONE TEAM HAVE???????

aparantely, its never ending.............

how about Manny for left and bobby abreu for right????  

wouldnt that be something, every asylum member would sh*t a brick...but neither would come here....unless of course when they come to town for the "warm up" session with the pirates before they play a real team....

@Buc Fever - re  So why waste $2-$3 million on an over the hill guy like Gonzo?

I would rather have sweetened the pot on Baldelli, or split the difference with Nate.  

But there is one difference between Gonzo and Burnitz - We paid Burneyboy 6 million and basically bid up ourselves.

I agree with you all, if this happens, its another head scratcher

So asylum mates, we DO HAVE A PLAN, don't we???

Gonzalez is not a fit for this team. I am not bashing him.

Mientkiewicz is not a fit for this team. I am not bashing him.

Bench players have to play several positions to be valuable to a team like the Pirates, they are not in the position of a team that can carry a guy to just come off the bench and pinch hit.

There is no position for Gonzo or Doug to play on this team.

The Pirates should be looking for what they need, not what they can get or who I want them to get.

When you have as many players as the Pirates do, that need to be on the roster and need to play, there becomes a need to carefully consider bringing in ballplayers that would take playing time away from them.

There are still a lot of players that they can get at a price they can afford, now is not the time to panic.

@Biz.......i dont think Baldelli was ever really coming here....

The Pirates will add a FA when the time is right. Apparently that time is now.

Hey, i have another question..........didnt NH say that Rich Aurilia WASNT the type of player the Pirates are looking for??

Doesnt he play EVERY infield position?  now that is WHAT they need off the bench, they dont need him, becuase he would actually want to get paid......

STL

Obviously the answer is 25--:)

Guess Who:

We'll have Gorzo & Gonzo & our own Groucho.

All you guys throwing out the comments about the potential of this being like Littlefield bringing in Burnitz, Randa and others ... no comparison as we're talking about a bench player.

And his numbers are similar to Doug's, except he hits more home runs. Probably doesn't have as good of an on-base percentage as Doug.

..........Grabow?

For the Pirates to decide which moves to make, all they have to do is get DK to post something that they are thinking about, he runs it by us and the Pirates simply read our blogs and that will tell them what course they should take with their moves.

We can solve their problems for them, I think!!

@bay...i agree....but i dont think he's a good bench player for US either...he plays left field..bats left handed....have all the pirates outfielders that cant/dont play left field and bat left handed raise their hands!!!

@STLRFAN - re - i dont think Baldelli was ever really coming here....

Yeah, I agree, but thats the kind of FA the PBC should be shooting for, not as many have said, someone looking for one last pay/another year for retirement vesting.

Take shots at minor league signings, plus we just filled up the 40 man rosted,

Two things constantly amaze me:

The assumption that an older player is useless to a team and that their skills HAVE to lessen (obviously experience counts for nothing: pitch recognition, where to position yourself in the field, how to hit in certain situations)...I'm assuming that Jack Wilson is a worse fielder now than when he was a rookie, according to that thought process.  I see him put himself in better positions for certain hitters now more than ever in his career.  So what if he's a tad slower, he more than makes up for it by his knowledge.  

I don't understand how the same people who are praising Mientkiewicz and want him to stay so badly, automatically count out any player over the age of 30.  

Let's see if these names, who were "past their prime, eroded skills and washed up" ring any bells and their ages when the Pirates picked them up: Ummm, Doug Mientkiewicz, 34...washed up.  Reggie Sanders, 35...best days were behind him.  Kenny Lofton, 35, lost his speed.  Jose Mesa, 38, waaay past his prime.  Granted their time in Pittsburgh was short, but they all had something to offer to the team in their skill set.

The 2nd thing is that we spend an absolutely enormous amount of time talking about a bench player.  While he's fun to watch, DD does not bring the Pirates any closer to a championship.  Nor does he put anybody into the seats at PNC Park (although if you go to games in the hopes of seeing your favorite bench player, more power to you).

So let me get this...signing Luis Gonzalez is crazy but signing Doug is a must.  This is ridiculous.

DM is not the only good leader in baseball.

At best he is an average player.  If he is so great why hasn't anyone signed him?  Why were we so bad last year?  If we can lose 95 games with him, we can do the same without him.  How many of you threw a parade when we signed him last year?  Everyone rips every player that the pirates talk to, but not DM.(this is not a personal attack on any poster please don't message that you dont rip every player its a hyperbole)

Doug is not GOD.

Doug is not GOD.

Luis Gonzalez hit .336 with 26 homers and 111 RBI last year. No wait, that was 10 years ago back in 1999 when performance enhancers and Gonzlez's name where mentioned in the same sentence. He's all about finding someplace to play where he can add to his stats in hopes of someday landing in the Hall of Fame. With 100s of free agents still out there, spending half of the remaining available free agent budget (say $2 million of $4 million) doesn't seem to be the prudent move yet.

I don't think anyone believes that a bench player will bring us closer to a championship - certainly not in terms of his play on the field or at bat.  However, I think many of us feel that DM did bring something to the team in terms of energy and how to play the game.  In that sense, if he inspired any of the other players to up their game, he may have an impact which might inch them closer to being a better team.  We knew what we had in him and we/I liked it.  Would Gonzo or any other such player do the same?  Who knows.  

thank you impliedi, someone finally spoke up about this

"The assumption that an older player is useless to a team and that their skills HAVE to lessen"

Luis Gonzalez' OPS over the last six years:

934

866

825

796

792

749

It's a bit more than an assumption to figure his hitting will decline.  And there's a big difference between 34 and 41.

"I'm assuming that Jack Wilson is a worse fielder now than when he was a rookie, according to that thought process."

Nope.  He's a weaker fielder than he was in, say, 2004 because he's lost range.  But he still probably is better than he was as a rookie.  In another couple of years, though, he probably won't be.

Don't for a minute think the Pirates will give Gonzo $2.5mm.

More like $1mm be my guess.  Not a bad deal at $1mm.

Yankees designate Wright for assignment  to make room for Petitte.

10-3, 2.85, LHP  AAA 25 yrs old

Can they trade him in time, or will he make it to waivers?

www.iht.com/.../BBA-Yankees-Move.php

impliedi <<I'm assuming that Jack Wilson is a worse fielder now than when he was a rookie, according to that thought process

Players tend to improve as they gain experience (pre prime); then they tend to play at a certain level for a while (prime); and they tend to demonstrate diminishing skills as they age and their body can no longer perform at the level of the mind.

It happens in all sports, once a player has passed their prime, you tend to see digressing performance.

It can be argued that Jack Wilson has reached his prime and will no longer demonstrate any further improvement; hence, the reason that we would have to pick up a major portion of his salary in any trade.

I'd take this Hall of Famer in a heartbeat for $2 million and start him in right field until someone can prove to be a better hitter.  

Awesome. Frank and Neal are on the right track. Lusi is a proven talent. Unlike Joe Randa, et al.  It's unfair to lump Gonzalez in that class of declinging players.

We need a home run bat.  Doug M. ain't it.  He isn't coming back.  We need big bats.

JimBibby - sorry, I think you're way off the mark. Why uproot yourself and move to PIttsburgh and a last place team just to pad your stats for HOF purposes.

Luis wants to play. Hire him. Start him, in fact, until Brandon Moss can show me something.  I think Nyger has more talent than Moss at this point.  

LarryZ <<We need a home run bat>>

Gonzo hit 8 HR last year, and he is a year older.

1 Diff between Burnitz and Gonzo -

Burnitz was brought in to start, Gonzo as a bench player.

Someone above made note of all of this fuss over a bench player.  He's (she's?) right.

uglyken - eh, I still think he'd be a great fit.  It's not like he has Barry Bonds attitude. I think he's capable of 15 HR at PNC>  Dolphin Stadium is a pretty depressing place from what I hear.  Waves of empty orange seats....

I haven't posted here in a while, but this topic got me off of my "just read" kick - Talking to folks is always fine but signing Gonzo would just be a bad move.  Unless we get a price cut when his Social Security kicked in...

For anyone who thinks he offers solid "pop" off the bench, you need to look at his SLG% over the past 5 years, then factor in that he will be 41 this year.  

Gonzalez is supposed to be a good character guy and he still has some pop. He works out. [Pedro Alvarez take note]. I would still prefer Mientkiewicz because he can play multiple positions. Please stay away from under-achiever, Kris Benson, we already have too many slackers on staff.

@LarryZ...I respectfully disagree about Nyjer.  I think Moss has more of an upside.  Nyjer has more speed, but I think Moss' fielding is better and he'll hit for more power.

And I thought we were looking for a power bat?  To me 8 HR's isn't a power bat.  I know.  Doug's not either.  

It would be one thing to bring Gonzo to Bradenton on a minor league contract and let him earn one of the 25 spots. To guarantee a contract to a 41 year old whose stats are 'roid padded defies belief. How does signing him fit 'the plan". They are making it hard to be an optimist.

@Capn wrote re: Pirates pursuing Luis Gonzalez

on Jan 27, 2009 2:08 PM

Hi, all.  Just getting started today.

I'm a little disappointed to see this news about Gonzo.  I agree w/ those above that I would rather see Doug in that spot on the bench.  Plus, it seems to me that if Gonzo is signed, that definitely spells the end of Doug.  I'm just so tired of a new old bench player every year.  There could be some continuity in those positions, but instead we always have to sign somebody new.

_________

Some consistency on the bench would be good.  Although as Leadoff later stated”

“leadoff wrote re: Pirates talking to Luis Gonzalez

on Jan 27, 2009 3:26 PM

Gonzalez is not a fit for this team. I am not bashing him.

Mientkiewicz is not a fit for this team. I am not bashing him.”

Please see the rest of his post for more info

The bench has to fill more than one role for any team to be successful.

As for Gonzalez or Duog.  If they fit the need sign them if not forgot about it.

@JosePagan wrote re: Pirates pursuing Luis Gonzalez

on Jan 27, 2009 2:35 PM

@ All:  Disclaimer - This is not necessarily an endorsement of Gonzalez.

________

Another great post and sane at that.

Kris Benson = Josh Fogg.

But really, I think players like Gonzalez have a huge upside. Like Tony Clark from the Diamondbacks. He hit one of the most impressive HRs I've ever seen last season as a bench player / mentor.  Left handed power bat.

@2httr--

Mientkiewicz because he can play multiple positions.

What position can he play besides 1st base?

LarryZ << fit >>

If the comparison is between Gonzo and Doug for a bench position at approximately the same salary, then that is a fair discussion that may take the fan’s emotions into account. However, to bring in a 41 year old to play a position that can be filled by players whose skills we want to put to stress (Moss, Morgan, & Pearce). That is a whole different discussion. Now the window is wide open to the Burnitz, Randa, and Bell comparisons.

@leadoff...in a pinch he can play 3rd and OF, and was the emergency 3rd catcher last season.  

And I said "in a pinch"...he's not going to win any Gold Gloves at 3rd, but he'll bust his backside out there on the field.

@4httr

@2httr-sorry hit the wrong key.

Any team would welcome Doug. I just think the Bucs are so hungry for power that we need a bigger bat.  The feeling I got from the PirateFest Q&A last Friday is that Doug will definitely not be in a Bucs uniform this year.

Gonzo would an interesting addition but it would send the same "old" message.

Let's get bold and add a veteran bat and a possible clubhouse leader. Bobby Abreu.

35 years old, left handed bat,

100 rbis a year 20 or so Hrs a year

Dejan---

You must be chuckling to yourself again.  With each new report that the Pirates are "talking to" someone...anyone...the rattling of the asylum cages grows louder.  I can't wait to see what happens when (if) the Pirates actually sign someone.

"And how is he any different from what Littlefield did with over the hill rent-a-players???"

1.  Cost

2.  Expected role - Bell, Burnitz, Casey, and Randa were supposed to be everyday players.  Gonzalez is not.

@DMac, I would bust my butt at third but that does not me I am in anyway a third baseman

Yeah, "talking" and actually "signing" are two different things.

Bobby Abreu? Wow. That WOULD be bold.  I think since his HR Derby display in 2005 he hasn't been quite the same.  But that would be a great addition. A $10 million addition, but...

41 isn't thaaat old! Making me feel ancient at 43 :) .......

Doug is not GOD.

Doug is not GOD.

If this is true, then what am I going to do with all these "Sacred Heart of Doug Mientkiewicz" candles?

ugly - my sentiments exactly on this issue. I'm hoping it is only a "conversation" and nothing more.

And Bucs Dugout has posted an interesting piece on this issue; link: http://www.bucsdugout.com/

@21 - exactly.  Gonzalez at $1-2 million is sensible.  Burnitz and Randa weren't.  

Still makes me laugh at the Randa signing.  Talk about a weak player.

Only Mark Belanger, Frank Taveras and Freddie Patek had weaker bats...

I got a late start on this convo, but there were some good posts here.  I agree than gonzo is not a fit for this team for a plethora of reasons.  If NH is truly looking for veteran OF to push Morgan and Moss, why not look at Andruw Jones or Moises Alou.  If either gets 250 at bats or so, I'd welcome it at a low price (as both would seemingly get, moreso on Jones).  We have a strong need for a veteran right-handed power bat and both of them would fit.  

And for the record, just having Douggy M on our team would be well worth the salary.  He's a tough presence.  If you have any Q's about that, ask Randy Johnson.  Plus, we need someone to get into a good argument with the umps, because JR surely won't do it.

@Larry -- From his reputation, Luis Gonzalez is a fantastic person and would be a plus for the organization. I respect your opinion and hope Gonzo provides the "power bat" that the Pirates need. I still don't believe it will happen but hope you're right.

@papa...again, I said "in a pinch".  Someone asked a question about what other positions he played...I answered.

I think we can all agree with need another big bat with experience on this team. I hope Pirates mgmt hasn't put their purse away just yet...  We need an established positive veteran presence. For whatever reason Doug M won't be the guy.  Why not get some HR power too as a bonus?

JS1660 - Andruw Jones is interesting. But Moises is 40 or 41 as well.  Great player though with family ties to the Pirates.  Wait, we drafted Moises?  Jeez, how many future HOF candidates have we let go? Alou, Bonds, Aramis (ok someone can stop me now...), Wakefield,

Gonzalez, Doug M.  Neither really phase me.  It would be for one year to be a bench player.  I'd rather have either of them over Craig Counsell who the Brewers just resigned.

If there's anybody out there we could sign to be a bench player for longer than two years that would be worth it, I'd be all for that but who could that be?

LarryZ - I would much rather see Jones in here over Alou or Gonzo.  Yes, everyone, he had a beyond horrendous season last year and his numbers in 2007 were not that great either.  But the guy will be a 4th OF at best and I think we could afford a minor league deal (like the Braves are expected to offer), or a low salaried 1 year deal in the $1 mil range.  As for Alou, he's just the righty version of Gonzo but it'd be better to see a righty in here because Pearce is not the answer.  He got his shot equivalent to the one we gave Brad Eldred so he's done in Pittsburgh.  And I'm sure Craig A. Wilson is on the unemployment line somewhere out there again. Maybe?

As much as I wanted to see Baldelli in Pgh, he was merely using the bucs to get more money from the BoSox.  A common tactic used by agents.

Well, I'm late to this string, and someone may have actually mentioned it already, but I found something fantastically encouraging in that post. Namely, they're not talking to Kris Benson. If I catch wind of even a hint that they're remotely considering talking to Benson... I think I'll end up in prison.

Gotta run (goodnight all), but Andruw Jones....I don't think one horrible season and his career is over. He was an elite player before the start of 2008 season.  Can he be that washed up already? I don't think so.

JLP - shame on you for the candles comment! Dude. LOL.

As for the rest of yinz... sheesh.

If DK didn't report that the Pirates were talking to anyone, yinz would be having a fit that the FO is doing NOTHING in the offseason. They talk to one guy - talk - and we get that information and BOOM we're about to throw the admin up a creek (pronounced crick) without a paddle.

No bench player is going to solve the power problem.

The extra money Nate wants and is not getting - I read the number hasn't satisfied him yet - is not about just those seven figures. It has to be the big picture, doesn't it? Precedent, setting the stage for that "30 percent whether you earn it or not next year" yadda, yadda, yadda.

JAL - I can't decide if you're monitoring these folks with little to say, banging your head on your desk, or ignoring this place altogether. You are awful darn quiet these days.

As much as not fully endorsing the canonization of Doug is sacrilege around here, can Doug bring more wins? That's what we need - more wins. Power brings more wins. Pitching strikes, controlled pitching brings more wins. I'm all for adding power so that when you have the first four batters take the plate, all four of them are dangerous. That's how you build a lead in a game. Good fielding, quality starts hold the lead. Yinz know that.

I know they say that they're justing "talking to" Luis as well as other OFs but could that be a prelude to 1 or more of the OFs being moved. Using Luis and say pearce or Monroe as a platoon.

Mclouth's reluctance to sign an extension may be his ticket out of here. Selling high and getting good value in my eyes would not be a terrible move.If a deal is not reached sometime before the midseason trade deadline I doubt it ever wiill. IMO. Signing some stop gaps until Mccutcheon  comes up while getting something for Mclouth could go a long way to improving the club. IMO

PoH -- << creek (pronounced crick) >>  Is there another way to pronounce it without sounding silly?

I like the idea of signing Gonzalez, but I'd rather sign DM. He's younger and he plays more positions. Is there room for both of them? That would leave out Steve Pearce and Craig Monroe. But they are no guarantee to make the club out of Florida.

It has been asked time and again why has DD not been signed,  But what must not be forgotten but is not being talked about is the fact DD made up his own mind to ask for a full time job and then announced that and it has not been reported anywheres that DD has offered to sign his old contract.

I think DD Made it clear his priority was not what he had from us last year and he wanted to go for it.

It was reported that it was left between the two of them that DD would search out his hopes and when or if found he would give his old team a cll to see if they would match what is on the table to him or give them a call to reopen talks about a role spot.

It seems that the conversation has changed that DD has been calling every other day leaving voice mails and emails and having his agent make repeated computer dialed calls to PBC to tell them he wants to play here again.

I would think that until we hear DD's agent in open mike say that they have contacted the pirates and have made an offer to return in the role the pirates last talked to him about and the pirates have said no deal, why are we to believe anything has changed?

So on the one hand it is said the Bucs are not doing  or acting fast enough but on the other hand some would expect the Bucs to sit back and wait for DD to make the call he wants to come back.

It's this -- Doug made me a fan forever when he stepped out of the box against the Big Unit the time after.  

Head = OK, there are other guys who can play off the bench better than Doug, and there are other guys who can be the mentor, and even other guys with the fire burning within.  Doug's a known quantity, but even so I trust management to makie a decision best for the team.  Baseball is demanding game and like Yogi said, "when it's over it's over."

Heart = RE-SIGN DOUG M.  YESTERDAY!!!!

DMac, my apologies, my comment was in no way intended as an attack on you it was a call for realism in assessing Dougie's potential contributions in 2009.

POH

I have posted on this but the mob didn't pay attention.  Even DK posted that this is just saying they talked with him and the contact was probably from his agent.  It is like a little spark starting a big forest fire.  It like what Gertrude Stein said about Oakland--there is no there there  :)

JAL (the last) and all others before - do we need any more evidence that we need baseball to start?  This is the trouble w/ Hot Stove.  We have nothing else to do or talk about.  We're desperate.

JAL << but the mob didn't pay attention >>

Happens to me all the time, and I'm sure others too.  Especially when trying to point out a detail, or bring up a new topic in the middle of a firestorm.

To everyone wanting to sign Luis Gonzalez, why mess around with a second rater. If you want to sign an over the hill 'roid abuser with power who is unemployed why not go to the top and sign Barry Bonds???

@papa... Sometimes it's the written word where one can't hear what's being said.  That did come off sounding shorter than I meant.  :-)

No harm...no foul.  

Capn

Well, we could speculate on the "other free agents, including outfielders" the Pirates are talking with:)

I thought the idea of a rebuilding project (now entering its 17th glorious season) was to dump all over-the-hill players in exchange for young players to build around.  Why do the Pirates always insist on giving a guy his final paycheck?  I hate to say it, but this is a 90 loss team before the first pitch of 2009 is thrown.  Signing either Mientkiewicz or Gonzalez to be a "good clubhouse guy" isn't going to change that.  Bring up McCutchen for a full season, put him in Centerfield every day and let him go through the ups and downs of a season in the majors.  That way he'll be ready to go in 2010.  Get rid of the LaRoche brothers and put Walker at third and Alvarez at first (then he doesn't have to be in shape.  See Prince Fielder) and let these guys learn at the big league level (see Tampa Bay Devil Rays example).  Is 72-90 really that much better than 62-100)?

PoH and JAL -

"Mob" is definitely the operative word. I barely noticed either of you posting here today, same as me. It is becoming an almost every-other-day event that Pirates "talk" to someone and the torches are lit and the pitchforks are lifted. I cannot think of a single player still available (not even Manny) that could make THAT much difference to us as to turn a corner in 2009. Whatever succes the Bucs will have will not likely lie on the shoulders of whatever bench player we sign at this late date.

That said, thank you both for chiming in on this thread. It's the first time all day I read the words "canonized" or "mob" anywhere. :-)'

Where, oh where is BillyKidd?

JAL - I am glued to every word you post. Srsly. I find you in the mob throng.

For all of those mentioning how easy of a sign Abreu would be, I throw this theory out there.  The reason all of these other OF's are unsigned is that they are waiting for Manny to set the market.  There are 4 or 5 teams (if you believe the reports) interested in signing Manny, and when he finally does sign, these other teams are going to be left to fill that spot.  They will then shift there attention to Dunn, Abreu, even Emil Brown among the other OF's available to fill their OF need so we should not expect that even if we approached Abreu with a big time offer, that he would sign with us for the sake of signing.  Better teams with more money are going to be calling him sooner or later.

I see no one's responded to Bondsthegoat's idea. It seems like an older idea, trading Nate, but the difficulty to sign him now doesn't worry me. Put up or shut up. He's only on his first round of arb. If he doesn't produce, he's still ours. If he doesn't and won't sign, there's still plenty of time to trade him down the road, with him still at good value.

Trading Nate now would send a terrible message in my opinion, as some fans are already souring on the organization's lack of forward progress. Yeah, he might bring a good return, but I think it could blow up in our face if it goes wrong. Just sayin'.

Mr Magoo........where are you?

Leadoff, I thought you were moving me up two spots to bunt you over. Doug , while no golden glove 3rd baseman played as well or better than the heir to the position, Andy LaRoche. He can play corner outfield in a pinch and he was the emergency catcher. Not bad for an older guy.

Leadoff, I thought you were moving me up two spots to bunt you over. Doug , while no golden glove 3rd baseman played as well or better than the heir to the position, Andy LaRoche. He can play corner outfield in a pinch and he was the emergency catcher. Not bad for an older guy.

Absolutely no way you trade Nate now unless you get something rediculous back, like 3 near-can't-miss prospects which isn't going to happen. Now that said and assuming Nate has a good '09, if the Pirates fail to sign him in the winter of '09 then it's probably almost a lock then that Nate is gone sometime in 2010, whether it's at that Winter Meetings or sometime in July 2010.

Can we scratch Luis Gonzalez from most posts and add Eric Hinske?

Hinske might be OK?

Hinske

hotstove.mlblogs.com/.../pirates_targeting_hinske.html

Dont know if that'll work. have no idea what I'm doing

Just some FYI. Bob Smizik weighs in on Luis Gonzalez over at his blog. community.post-gazette.com/.../just-say-no-to-gonzalez.aspx

To all who asked--Mr. Magoo is fine but unable to be with us for awhile.  

i might add, gonzo has probably the weakest OF throwing arm in the national league. he can really only handle left field, and i use the word handle loosely. i suppose that he could pinch hit and occasionally platoon with morgan until mccutcheon comes up, but man it just makes no sense to spend any kind of money on this guy.

JH

Such is life on the blog

G-man

Chime in when needed.  Actually, I was fairly active on the morning thread.  Even accomplished some persuasion.;)

POH

I always find you too :)

@rennieStennett wrote re: Pirates talking to Luis Gonzalez

on Jan 27, 2009 7:06 PM

i might add, gonzo has probably the weakest OF throwing arm in the national league. he can really only handle left field, and i use the word handle loosely. i suppose that he could pinch hit and occasionally platoon with morgan until mccutcheon comes up, but man it just makes no sense to spend any kind of money on this guy.

___________

If we combine his arm with Morgan’s maybe they could get the throw to the infield without a couple of hops.  

Okay,  okay Morgan lovers it was a cheap shot.  I least it will go further then Morgan’s throws.

Maybe we should see what the offer is and whether he even takes it before we crucify him.  He fits the Pirates needs better than the Dirty One.   They need an OF more than yet another 1B.  

The only person who is capable of a threeway Pearce/LaRoche/Mientkiewicz threesome is Bill Paxton.  And he's on cable.

Mad

Maybe with his speed Morgan can run the ball in close enough to throw it where it should go :)

madturk, morgan could probably run the ball in faster than gonzo can throw it in...

rennieStennett  <<morgan could probably run the ball in faster than gonzo can throw it in>>

That depends on what kind of route he takes.

Very good, JAL.  My first chuckle of the day.

Capn

I try--or I am trying-or maybe try too hard--or maybe i don't try hard enough--or--well, you get the picture :)

haha. true that ken.

Update:  Pirates targeting Hinske

This player makes more sense.

Hinske makes sense. Only 31 hit 20 HR last year. Can play OF or 1b. HE is the kind of bench player we need to look at, a vet who can contribute on the field. I would venture a guess if he can provide power he can become a fan favorite.

@JAL and UK...LMAO.

Um...Let's not trade Nate just yet, M'kay?  We're low on power as it is...and speed for that matter.  Besides, would that not fall right into the idea that the Pirates trade away their best players?  ;-)

Night link

Baseball fans bid Updike adieu

mlb.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

The report sounds very promising on Hinske, like this is a very real possibility. Now he definitely would be an upgrade, even over DD and it doesn't look like he'll cost a bundle either. Sounds like a really good match. Let's see the Pirates make at least one half decent addition to their ball club for '09.

@DMac--

Um...Let's not trade Nate just yet

Can't trade him yet, I have him penciled in to start the opener in Center Field.

@4httr

You can move up to 2httr as long as I get to leadoff.

@JAL--

What "Mob," looks to me like a typical blog day, what are you seeing that I am not?

Only problem I see with Hinske is he is another lefty--batted .143 against lefthanders;  Mclouth hit only 3 of his 26 HR off leftys, Moss hit only 1 of his 6 off a lefy though he did have a higher BA against leftys, Morgan hit .304 against rightys and only .240 against leftys,

Hinske = Ed Sprague

Hinske age 31 .247avg  20HR .333 obp .465 slg

Sprague age 31 .267avg 22HR .352 obp .465 slg

Hey, in all the hubbub, bub, I wonder if you've noticed that it's only:

17 DAYS UNTIL PITCHERS AND CATCHERS!!!

(Notable numerology nugget: Bob Walk is the last Pirates player to wear #17 for a winning Buccos team.  The last Pirates player to wear #17 at all?  The immortal Bobby Hill.)

Leaoff

I see more of a divorce from reality than usual :)

JAL, in a perfect world Hinske would be a righty but compared to those who are still available that becomes a minor issue, IMHO

I think Hinske's intriguing, at least at the right price. I've been hung up on the lefty-righty thing for a while, but the more I think about it, it's similar to the "too many third basemen" potential problem.

Let's get good (hopefully young) players, then worry about which side they swing from and where they play. If Hinske was good enough to play in 133 games for the Rays, he's probably good enough for the Pirates to consider!

LVPF

Welcome to the asylum.  Straight-jacket and meds at front desk and room assignment coming soon.  :)

papa

I agree with you on that--minor issue

DK has confirmed the talks with Hinske.  Says he will have a new post on it soon.

New thread on Hinske is up

@JAL wrote re: Pirates talking to Luis Gonzalez

on Jan 27, 2009 7:19 PM

Mad

Maybe with his speed Morgan can run the ball in close enough to throw it where it should go :)

_________

roflmao  great comeback!

New thread up Inmates....

Pirates, Hinske discuss contract

POH,

No one in the mob wears a thong.

Srsly.