Pirates invite Monroe, Perez to camp

Ugh.  I sure hope another option for a RH hitter surfaces.  Monroe is washed up.

Craig Monroe is a nice pickup, for living on the cheap! I mean, come on ... .202 last year is pretty unsightly but his 8 home runs automatically qualifies him for our starting lineup, doesn't it? Of course, just half-kidding ... The guy's only 30, and I guess there's a downside to him or somebody would have signed him by now.

Maybe our right-handed power bat?

(Not so) Funny how the Pirates tried to trade for Monroe only a couple offseasons ago, and now here he is falling into their laps. Be careful what you wish for, sometimes it comes true. Actually, this is the way you test drive a player and kick him to the curb if his tank is empty. I give the Pirates kudos on this signing.

C'mon WTM, at least we can't have a headline associated with him like "Give Pearce a Chance." How's the "Monroe Doctrine" or "Monroe's-Ville. "

@WTM - "C'mon WTM, at least we can't have a headline associated with him like "Give Pearce a Chance." How's the "Monroe Doctrine" or "Monroe's-Ville."

Wonder how Lanny would've called one of his home runs ... (if he makes it)?

Maybe "And there was no Mon-Roe doubt about it!"

Nope. That won't work, JimBibby.

How about "And there was Mon-Roe clout about it!"

Yeah! (Fist pumps!)

I agree withh Baywatch - finally, a decent move on the Pirates part.  Hell with the low average last year.  Monroe still has enough power to sock some home runs.  30 isn't 40.  A nice pickup for the Pirates. About time...

This falls under the category of "you do what you can". We haven't won over the players that we have targeted in FA (though we outbid our competitors) so this is the type of thing that is left to the team. While these are long shot opportunities, you never know, and it's better than doing nothing. I don't expect much if anything, but........if we give them a shot, we may get lucky.

And I'd do more than invite Monroe to camp - I'd invite him to dinner and get him on the roster. We need power desperately.

Nice work by the Pirates,

if he does actually rebound, he has some serious power. I like this one.

WTM

Since when is 31 washed up?

Actually, I may be thinking of Marcus Thames (also with the Tigers), regarding the proposed power.

TRo me - worst case senario is that Monroe puts up the numbers he did in Detroit in 2007 (11 HR, 55 RBI, .222 BA in 343 AB).  Essentially that fully replaces Michaels (8/44/.228 in 228 AB).  Best case - he rediscovers 2006 (28/92/.255 541 AB) and either is a huge benefit to the club, or he's traded before the deadline to open a spot for McCutchen.  (Would people freak out if Tabata earned his way up here first?)

By no means am I saying he's going to pop 40+ HR, but this is the sort of pickup the Rays made with Carlos Pena a few years ago.  Tons of talent, but off the scrap heap.  For him and for the PBC - and the Asylum - I hope it works out.

Monroe was the victim of the Detroit Tigers move towards becoming the NY Yankees - acquiring high-priced free agents. Little playing time.  Who knows? Maybe winning a spot on the roster will giev him some renewed sense of purpose.  The Twins had no use for him. But 8 HRs in 2008 projected over a full season would have resulted in about 25-30 HRs.  I know, too simplistic of a model, but I'm looking any bright spots on this dismal weather day...

Don't know much about the guy, but I am reminded of this poem:

"All that is gold does not glitter,

Not all those who wander are lost..."

Apologies to JRR Tolkien, but the point to the above is looks can be deceiving. Let's give the guy a look.

Salomon Torres was a castoff as I recall when he came to camp.

Jose

I still wonder, after adding Monroe, would/could the Pirates trade Adam L, since I think all parties agree he'll get more than he's worth in arbitration, and get a Pearce/DD platoon at 1st?

Gabe Kapler would have been a better choice; he hits for higher average, walks more often, has better plate discipline, more power and players better defense than Monroe.

@ diehard - interesting point, though my sense is that you do not pencil in a reclamation project for a semi-regular position at this juncture (which could evolve into a starting role if the question marks around Pearce remain unanswered).

I think the Buccos have given Adam Laroche more than enough opportunity to show his stuff.  Time to allow Steve Pearce that well-deserved chance.  

I think UncleDirtNap and Gabe Kapler are related. Otherwise, why the fever-pitch support for the guy?  :)

Gabe Kaplan is still available. As is Ronald Horshack.

Kapler signed with the Sweathogs, I mean Rays, a couple days ago anyhow.

I believe I was the original Kapler supporter here - for exactly the same reasons as the Uncle gives above.  He would have been a better addition - assuming he even considered playing here or that the front office ever gave him a look.

Monroe will be 32 when the season starts (BD 2/1977), not 31 BTW.

He also sports a .301 career OBP.  Look at his walks and strikeouts.  I doubt that will change at this point in his career.  The Pirates already have a tremendous lack of discipline at the plate.  This is a "buy low" move if there ever was one.

I'm sure Kapler, on the other hand, will enjoy playing for the defending AL champs in Tampa.

Reggie Sanders is still only 41.

Piraytes should sign Ricky Henderson

Craig Monroe is basically Steve Pearce.  This is NH playing the percentages:  acquire as many powerful, righthanded OFers/1B as possible.  If each has a 33% chance of being successful, then you have a 66% chance of ONE of them being successful.  Maybe we'll acquire a couple more guys like this in order to corner the market.

I like this deal. Could actually pay off real nicely. If he stays with the club all year and belts 15HR 60RBI 250BA ill b happy.

By career stats, Monroe has more power than Kapler, but it sure comes at a steep price - assuming it even still exists.  I would have gone with the guy who hit .301 with 8 NL homers last year over the guy who hit .202 with 8 AL homers, had there been a choice.

But a player has to want to play here, and the team has to want to sign him.  Maybe there is a logic to their moves.

Ill just be happy with someone who has potential to hit 15 HR whoever that may be.

I also wonder how Monroe's power number will translate.  If he's more than a dead pull hitter, PNC would be an improvement over Detroit.  That place is like hitting in the Grand Canyon.

Sorry guys, I don't get it.

Me thinks we're trying to polish a road apple here??

"acquire as many powerful, righthanded OFers/1B as possible"

Since when does a .405 slugging percentage constitute powerful?

The .350 slugging before that is truly inspiring as well.

It's nice to see all the excitement, signing a 31 yr old .250 career hitter to a minor leaguie contract brings. The competition should be fierce. McClouth starter. NOW battleing it out Morgan a 30yr old career minor leaguer, Moss, 25-26 yr old minor leaguer fighting back from major surgery, and now Monroe. They are going to, not be good anyways, trying to be nice. Where are the "kids". McCutchen might have a chance to play. The Bucs want all players to have last names starting w/ a "M" it saves $$$,They can buy the letter M in bulk @ Costcos. I guess no "T"abata this yr.

Craig Monroe = Jason Michaels

Ironhouse - I think DK even added it into a Q&A answer - Monroe is the definition of a stopgap player.  If he makes the team, he's going to be here to keep a seat warm for McCutchen or Tabata.  When one of them has proven themselves to be ready, he'll be shipped out.

Dirtnap - I think the hope is to find out if he can still be the guy who was slugging in the mid to high .440's from 2003-06.  If he's just the guy got squeezed out by an abundance of OF's in Detroit, he won't stick around.

Going back to the Carlos Pena comparison - Pena has hit 77 HR's in the past two years.  He hit all of 86 in the 6 seasons prior, only topping 20 once.  Monroe topped 20 3 times.  2006 six he also tied for 2nd in the Al with 12 outfield assists.  It's at least worth taking a chance.

Seems alot like Craig Wilson... Anyone know whatever happened to Wilson?

Earlier today I made a comment that I felt the pirates would either sign Doug or another infielder, an outfielder (I mentioned Monroe) and possibly a pitcher.  I didn't think they would sign one so soon.  Monroe in my opinion will give us as much if not more then Jason Micheal.  Its not a bad move and for a stopgap they could do a lot worse.  This guy made over 3 million last year we got him on a minor league deal.  Bow whos next?  Uribe, Hudson, Doug M another out fielder a pitcher (Perez maybe?) I say there will be 2-3 more acquisitions before spring training starts.

Craig wilson is with someone but I'm not sure who.  White sox or Atlanta maybe.  I can't keep track.  He seems to change teams a lot.

How exactly doe a 14 HR per year average translate to being a power hitter?  Just asking.

Craig wilson was traded by the pirates last summer to seattle.  They have dropped him so he is a Free Agent.  His career is basically through.  

"Since when is 31 washed up?"

Depends on who you're talking about--although Monroe is 32 in a few weeks.  Contrary to popular belief, the average hitter isn't still in his prime at age 30, he's declining.  The average hitter peaks at age 27.  The guys who are still going strong in their mid-30s are the exception, not the rule.

Monroe had a decent peak at ages 26-29, then fell off a cliff as soon as he hit 30, which is a classic pattern for mediocre players.  His OPS+ over the last four years has been:

104

99

65

83

He's never had good plate discipline, which is another indicator of a guy who figures to have a short shelf life.  He's had a below-average (usually far below) OBP in every year but one, when he was barely above average.  If you look at the most comparable players listed for him at bb-ref, almost all were finished around the age he's at now, if not sooner.

He's a decent player who had a decent, brief run, and now he's washed up.

A link:  Bonds / Clemens may get hall snub:

www.latimes.com/.../la-sp-shaikin13-2009jan13,0,5260255.story

I refuse to get excited, optimistic, praiseworthy, hopeful, anticipatory, anguished, depressed, angry, sickened or judgemental over Craig Monroe.

He is worth none of those emotions.

@Cave...I agree.  Nothing to get worked up about either way.  This could be good, or it could be bad.  We'll have to wait and see.

Derek Lowe going to Atlanta...

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

Why is it I can't get worked up about Bert Blyleven not making the Hall of Fame?  I hardly think of him as a Pirate.

I remember him arguing with Chuck Tanner in 1979 about taking him out of games and bringing in Teke.  "How will I get into the Hall of Fame if I don't add up the complete games and the strikeouts?" he complained.  He cared more about personal stats than he did about winning.  I hate that!!!!

He accumulated his stats only because he had a rubber arm.  He had one excellent year in Minnesota, but he was never again in the top 5 pitchers in any year.

If one is not among the best pitchers in the league in any season, that pitcher should not be considered for the Hall of Fame.

His curve ball was fun to look at, but Bert Cryleven is not Hall of Fame material!

Dave Parker deserves it more:  very similar stats to Jim Rice.

Cave, was just deciding whether or not to get excited about some guy who might or might not make the team, and then the wife called and wondered what we wanted for lunch.  There's a Chinese restaurant in town with take out, so I had Moo Goo Gai Pan, then I came to this conclusion:  He's on our side now, I hope he does well.  If not, maybe one of the other non-roster invitees will do well.  Ah, the hope that springs eternal while we wait eternally for spring.  Yeah, that's more or less it, with some of the even duller parts left out.

That line would have been better as the hope that springs eternal while we hope etermally for spring.

This will send showckwaves throughout baseball.

--Lloyd McClendon

I caught two series in Pittsburgh last season.  I liked what I saw of Pearce when they played Cinci.  With the economy I'm not sure how many times I'll get back this season.  Any word on where Pedro Alvarez will be starting?  The Curve play opening day in Erie against the Sea Wolves, but I bet they'll stick Alvarez in single A at least for a few weeks.

Hadar

I gues the Chinese food gave you your epiphany.

Love the new photo of your Westie.

I meant shockwaves (typo).

I saw a blurb about the Mets offering Oliver Perez 3 years and $30 milion.  Does anyone think this would be worth trying to top?  I go back and forth on it, even though I doubt it would happen either way.  He is erratic, but is still young (27) enough to be part of a long-term core if he pitches well.  

What about Pedro Martinez?  He's falling through the cracks.  I think Joe Kerrigan was his pitching coach in Montreal and Boston and his best buddy is Denny Bautista (I read that somewhere).  So, those could be a draw for him to come here.

If Pedro came in on a low-base, high-incentive contract, then (if he does well and the Pirates are out of it) the Pirates would have a pretty good trading chip to bring in more prospects for the future.  Most of what we could trade to bring in good prospects is already gone.  How about offering him a 1-year deal with an option for a 2nd year (high incentives, low base)?  It's another thing that I doubt will happen.  But, it's more fun to think about than the impact of Craig Monroe.

Wanted, extra outfielder, right handed hitter. Plate discipline and decent on base percentage not required. Must work cheap and be willing to relocate after one year. Doug Mienkiewicz need not apply, due to demonstration of too much leadership ability. NOTICE--- cancel applications, Craig Monroe  just got the job.

Link:  Yankee President Subpoena'd over Stadium Costs

sportsillustrated.cnn.com/.../index.html

Groat2 - thanks for the comments on Blyleven. Yeah, he won't go in as a Pirate. Not really sure for which team he would.  He wasn't a dominant pitcher. Just above average for many many years. I still would put him in there. I think Al Oliver is more deserving than parker, but both should make it. Like I said earlier, the Bucs were the winningest team during the 1970s but only Stargell is in the HOF.  Not right.  (Bert "Cryleven"...funny)

Dejan,

I laughed when I read your "trees not moving  .  .  red lights" comment.

There are more red lights in Bradenton than in downtown Pittsburgh.

Do you stay on Long Boat Key (my fav) when you go, or on the mainland?

I enjoy the early part of Spring Training, when all the workouts are at Pirate City, much more than when the games are at McKechnie Field.  I enjoy the closeness at Pirate City:  standing right there as 5 pitchers throw at once, with the resultant "smack" of the gloves; and hearing player and coach, and player and player, interactions.

Groat

Hilton Longboat is my fav, Do you have any other suggestions.

Triple G -- You were gone before I had a chance to welcome you the other day -- where in Iowa are you?

Cave -- <Dog Pic>  He actually sat still for three seconds.  (My actual epiphany of the day was that my code wasn't working because I had an SQL statement in a TTable that was using an inner join instead of a left outer join on a couple of tables.  I was worried about a bunch of nested ifNull Statements, and . . . oops, wrong forum.)

Oops -- should have said TQuery instead of TTable.

Hadar

Whew. That TTable reference wasn't making any sense.

JHadar, I'm in Bettendorf Iowa.  Right along the Mississippi.  Freezing cold... lots of bald eagles.

I believe I'll get back to Pittsburgh to live someday.  Retirement for sure but I'd like to move sooner... within a few years.  To me it's amazing that they have trouble fillilng the stands at PNC Park.  Sure, ownership bilked the team for a decade and a half, but I hate to admit that I'd rather have bad Pirates than no Pirates.

That being said, I'm fascinated by the recent build-up in the farm system and will probably follow that as much as I follow the MLB team.

GGG

My greatest interest is in following the minor league system. There should be a few bright spots their this year.

Darryl and Darryl's brother,

I just don't think a guy who was "above average" for a lot of years is Hall of Fame worthy.  Andre Dawson was MVP on a last place club and among the very best in the league for a number of years.  Dale Murphy won back to back MVP's, plus Gold Gloves.  Dave Parker won MVP once, 2 battting titles, 3 Gold Gloves, 7 All Star selections, including 4 starts, and was among the very best for multiple seasons.  Parker finished in the top 5 for MVP 5 times and the top 20 for MVP 9 times.  That's Hall of Fame material.

Cryleven pitched 22 years and had only 3 All Star appearances and only 4 times did he even get ANY votes for Cy Young, 3rd being his best finish.

The Hall of Fame should not be for pluggers:  it should be for All Stars.

@ G2M2S & LarryZ - Good comments on Blyleven. One thing I will never forget about him is that he actually walked off the team for a bit in June 1979 in protest over Tanner's usage of him and its impact on his ability to get shutouts and complete games. That spoke volumes about his character in my opinion. I am more in G2M2S's camp on his HOF viability.

@ LarryZ - on the other thread, JAL pointed out that the Pirates were not the winningest team of the 1970's, but the third winningest.

Also noted on the other thread, looking at the Pirates entire roster of the 1970's, I noticed that they actually had four HOF'ers play for them during that decade. In addition to Stargell, there was Clemente (1970-72), Mazeroski (1970-72) and Gossage (1977). Just wanted to note that.

If Don Long looked at film of Monroe and felt he could remake a hitter of him we got a bargain, if not Anderson Machado has a new teammate at Indy. At least we are trying something. It beats inertia

Caveman,

The Longboat Hilton!  Whoa!  I walked into that beautiful lobby and picked up a book of matches!  Can I carry your bags!?

I stay in the Groat2Maz2Strangeglove van!  Lights out at dark!  The showers are great along the beach.

HERE YEE HERE YEE  I just talked with Billy who will be out for a bit annd we still can hold a gatjhering  this coming sunday at vincents or right down the hill a place has the hook up for the MADTURK

Please put a response on the blog  or email me at  

tjfran@comcasrnet.  If no one with a card can come we can go down to Blinkey's  pleaese asap quickly

Billy will not be in attendance but we will be and still have a blast

@JosePagan wrote re: Pirates invite Monroe, Perez to camp

on Jan 13, 2009 11:41 AM

Don't know much about the guy, but I am reminded of this poem:

"All that is gold does not glitter,

Not all those who wander are lost..."

Apologies to JRR Tolkien, but the point to the above is looks can be deceiving. Let's give the guy a look.

++++++++++++++

If looks are deceiving them let's hope the first look took place before we looked.  :-)

Groat

I guess I won't ask where you stay in Bradenton.

Will Monroe move and make his home in Monroeville?

With Monroe signed that is probably the end for DD.  Hope not but looks like it is.  He fits the info DD was saying about giving the young outfiled a break every once in awhile.

Cave Bonafield, I've been really excited about the farm.  I'm an avid collector of prospect cards and either have a massive rare autographed and numbered set of prospects for the upcoming surprise everyone Pittsburgh Pirates or... the most expensive pile of cardboard this side of the Mississippi.

@diehard wrote re: Pirates invite Monroe, Perez to camp

on Jan 13, 2009 11:41 AM

I still wonder, after adding Monroe, would/could the Pirates trade Adam L, since I think all parties agree he'll get more than he's worth in arbitration, and get a Pearce/DD platoon at 1st?

__________

Adam is not going anywhere until July. If he hits in the first part of the year then they may make an offer.  If not and Pearce and or others show something then he is gone for whatever we can get.

GGG -- So do you get out to see the River Bandits at all?  I lived in Iowa City from '77 to '97 and used to love going up to Cedar Rapids for the Kernels games.  We're up in Northwest Iowa now.  I hope for good.  I like some of the things you can do in cities, but the traffic and the hassle and the costs make me wonder why people do it.  It seems like whenever we visit urban friends and go to a museum or a gallery or a ballgame or a zoo or whatever, we ask how often they go there, and they usually reply just when they have company.

I am looking forward to seeing Pittsburgh again this spring, though.  My mom's family is from there, but my wife is a California girl and we usually head west when we have time.  It's been 40 years (ulp) -- but I hope to be at the ballpark when I get there.

McCutchen and Tabata are not making the team this year and wil not be held back for anyone.  Thay have to show they beleong first.  McCutchen is closer at this point and can make his case in ST.  Don't look for him until July though.

@uglyken wrote re: Pirates invite Monroe, Perez to camp

on Jan 13, 2009 11:23 AM

This falls under the category of "you do what you can". if we give them a shot, we may get lucky."

_________

Taking part of your comment - It's like looking on the beach for coins in the sand with one of those metal detector things.  If you find enough coins one of them maybe one is worth the whole bag.

Regarding Blyleven, I'm almost sure he walked out in the middle of the 1980 season. Can anyone provide a link to verify?

If I'm the Pirates, I wouldn't bid $30 million on Oliver Perez because of his inconsistencies from season to season, game to game, and pitch to pitch.

Chicken - thank you. Maybe the Bucs were the winngest 1970s National Legaue team. Forget where I heard that.

And yeah, Roberto and Maz were on 70's teams, but only for a couple years.  Oliver and Parker gotta be there.

Thanks for the Blyleven tidbit. I didn't realize he was a baby when he was with the Pirates.

Larry, One of the reasons the Bucs don't have a lot of All Stars from the '70's is that they had one of the best supporting casts ever assembled, guys like Sanguillen, Patek, Robertson, Hebner, Cash, Stennet, Zisk, Taveras, Garner, Robinson, and Madlock.  Same with pitching -- no real all stars, but solid guys all through the line-up.  

@JHadar wrote re: Pirates invite Monroe, Perez to camp

on Jan 13, 2009 5:52 PM

Larry, One of the reasons the Bucs don't have a lot of All Stars from the '70's is that they had one of the best supporting casts ever assembled, guys like Sanguillen, Patek, Robertson, Hebner, Cash, Stennet, Zisk, Taveras, Garner, Robinson, and Madlock.  Same with pitching -- no real all stars, but solid guys all through the line-up.  

_______

Another words a solid TEAM.  No overpriced superstars of self promotion.

Larry

No, the Reds were the team that won the most games in the 70s--953

Orioles were 2nd at 944, Pirates third with 916

@ JBS

You are right, Blyleven walked out during the 1980 season and not 1979, thanks for the correction. And the dates were April 30th - May 13th, not June as I had written.

Here's a link, the reference is in the 7th paragraph:

www.baseballlibrary.com/.../player.php

Justice Action League,

I always respect your statistical-bent opinion.

What do you think about the information I listed above about Dave Parker being a Hall of Famer?

Would you support Bert Blyleven based solely on his longevity?

@ LarryZ

>> And yeah, Roberto and Maz were on 70's teams, but only for a couple years. <<

Very true and your original point has some validity. Maz was a back-up and no longer a major factor and Roberto, unfortunately, only played during 30% of the decarde. Beyond that, Gossage only played for one year, so Stargell was the only "full-time" HOF regular of the 70's, if you will.

Groat

I agree that Parker had a HOF career.  He had more tools than Rice.

AS for Blyleven--no support just for longevity..  Many players have had long carers--Jose Vizcaino had an 18 year career and no one is pushing him for the HOF.  Blyleven is close case.  He was good pitcher for many years but did not dominate.  

@Chicken on the Hill: Thanks regarding Blyleven, the. neurons of a then 14-year-old and now 43-year-old are firing correctly for a day.

Chicken

Just proves you do not need a HOF lineup to win.  

Graot

Assuming he stays retired, we have another close case coming up in 5 years--Mike Mussina.  I would vote for Blyleven over Mussina--now wonder what the real voters will do.  Of course, Blyleven may be in the Hall by then.

Groat

Sorry about transposing the o and a

Still not eating my words on the Bucs FA signings. They still have only signed one FA to a major league deal (a bench player at that). Monroe is a 4th OF and a bench guy at best.Maybe a change to the NL will help him, but don't count on it. NH is still signing the cheapest FAs he can get and hoping a cow's ear turns into a silk purse. Again, don't count on it. As for Perez, sign all the minor league catchers you can. A team can never have enough depth at catcher.....

My personal candidate for overlooked HOF careeer would be Manny Sanguillen now that Maz is in.  He was widely regarded as second only to Bench in his prime and would have been a shoo-in a media market.  His qualifications are certainly better than Blyleven's.  Not a slugger, but hit for good average, great arm and defense, and three-time all star (should have been more).

PI

No need to eat your words. Doesn't bother me and the  there are more unsigned FAs a than signed ones.  I just don't see much value in FAs for the team right now.  Want some power--Dunn and Abreu still out here through I wouldn't go after either of them.  Whne they said they wanted a right hand power and veteran pitcher I never thought it would anyone big.  

JH

I see your points but I think his short career will keep him from being seriously considered.  Have to really shine in short career to be considered.

JAL -- True, and a lot of what Manny did was just under the radar.

My All Time Pirate Team:

OF -- Clementer

OF -- Kiner

OF -- Waner

1B -- Stargell

2B -- Maz

SS -- Wagner

3B -- Traynor

C -- Sanguillen

P -- ?

I don't know if we've ever had a great pitcher over an extended period of time.  Drabeck, Law, Phillipe???

JH

Pitching is a difficult one.  I am tempted to go with Ray Kremer who pitched all 10 of his seasons for the pirates and went 143-85--won 20 twice, 19 once, and 18 twice though Phillippe is probably a better choice--13 seasons, 189-109, won 20 6 times.

JAL -- ElRoy Face would be my reliever.  Lot's of good pitchers over the years, but no really great ones.  

JH--Face definitely the reliever.

JH--Forgot Wilbur Cooper--only pitcher to win 200 games in a Pirate uniform

Justice Action League,

Good call on Mussina.  I have never really considered him a Hall of Fame pitcher, but he was consistently good.  He did win 270 games!

Mussina lost ALMOST 100 LESS games than Blyleven, while winning just 17 less.

If Blyleven had not struck out so many, no one would consider him at all.  He's barely a .500 pitcher.

Blyleven lost 250 games.  That's more than Jim Kaat and Tommy John who have similar win totals, and no one pushes strongly for them in the Hall.  Nolan Ryan lost more games, but he struck out 2000 more than Blyleven.

Ryan led the league in K's 11 times; Blyleven once!

Ryan was chosen 9 times for All Star team; Blyleven only twice.

If a person only makes his league All Star team 2 times in a 22 year career, how can he be considered one of the greatest of all time?  He was never one of the greatest in any season!

Groat

Many people fall in love with certain stats, home runs and strikeouts being the two biggest.  

Well, somehow the evening has slipped away -- time to call it quits here and pay attention to Mrs. H -- Fireplace, TV, curl up with dogs & a cup of cocoa and schnapps, and ignore the blizzard.

Enjoyed the discussion today -- remember I'm pullin' for ya', we're all in this together.

JAL -- OK, Cooper it is for now -- will try to learn something about him.

Groat

I can see supporting Kaat--not only did he win 283 games, he may have been the best fielding pitcher of all time--and that should count for something.  

JH have a good rest of the night

JH and JAL--just wanted to add my two cents, don't know about Cooper, but the guy for me in the P spot on that all time team is Steve Blass.  I know he didn't pitch long and it's more of a personal choice, but he will always be my favorite Pirate pitcher and we don't win the '71 WS without him and Clemente.