Morning links: A time for Towels

"The Pirates' projected payroll will be roughly two-thirds of that, but -- repeat after us -- the Pirates plan to increase that once they feel they have an internal core comparable to that of the Brewers."

Here is the famed "Pirates-22," in which the team will increase player salary when they get some good players, but can't get good players because they won't increase player salary.....

That story on the Indian pitchers said they "share representation with Barry Bonds." Whaaaat? Scott Boris? And that guy standing between them in the picture... he looks a little like Barry... but that's not him -is it? That guy looks too young, and... too slender. He's looks more slender than the other two.

The "Pirates-22."  Good one.

LOL @ Pirates-22. Quite true it seems sadly.

Jay Bell nominated for HOF? An even bigger LOL at that one. Sure, he was a decent major leaguer and had that "freak" 38 home hun season with Arizona but cmon. I don't know the standards for someone getting nominated for the HOF though. Is there certain criteria where a if a player reaches it, they automatically get a nomination?

Perhaps "Pirates-22" could also symbolize how many seasons the losing streak gets up to before they finally break it now that I think about it.   **shudder**

With baseball news so scarce today, until the HOF announcement. I will take a break from the blog. Congrats to the Steelers and Pitt (doesn't good news come in threes?)....

THE OFFICIALLY UNOFFICIAL PBC BLOGS AND MLB LINKS:

Bucs Dugout--Community Projection: Ryan Doumit

http://www.bucsdugout.com/

MVN-PBC--Andy LaRoche's Perfect Opportunity and Pittsburgh Pirates: Trade Nate McLouth, and Trade for Yankees' Nick Swisher and  Podcast No. 5: Looking Beyond Sanchez, Wilson to Pirates' Middle Infield Prospects and Hernandez' Third Playoff Save

http://mvn.com/mlb/pirates/

Raise the Jolly Roger--Pre-Spring Training Pitching Staff Predictions

http://raisethejollyroger.com/

THe 'Burgh Blues--2009 CHONE Projections  and Marlins deny interest in Pedro

theburghblues.mlblogs.com

The Green Weenie--The Bucs of 2009

www.oldbucs.blogspot.com

Just one link to add ref 2 Cuban defectors who happen to play baseball:

sports.espn.go.com/.../story

Come on Bucs, give them a look..........

Morning Links Part 3

The Hate for Scott Boras and Hypocrisy of Loyalty in Baseball

bleacherreport.com/.../109524-the-hate-for-scott-boras-and-hypocrisy-of-loyalty-in-baseball

Yankees Spending Critic Makes Sense on Dollars: Scott Soshnick

www.bloomberg.com/.../news

@JL...

Yes, that is Barry, but since he is no longer using steroids, he looks more normal. I dont recall during the article anything about representation, but Scott Boras does not represent Barry Bonds or the Indian guys.

I think Bond's agents name is Borris, but I think it's Jeff...

". . . but can't get good players because they won't increase player salary....."

Tampa Bay went to the World Series with a $43M payroll.

WTM...Tampa Bay drafted and developed and then either got lucky or made brilliant free agent moves to supplement.  The PBC management has shown no ability to do that just yet.

The Pirates are profitable at this payroll level.  Increasing payroll does not necessarily equate to wins, thus is risky.  If they were guaranteed to win 100 games if they increased payroll by 100% and it doubled their attendance, I suspect they would do it.  

This approach is very risk averse since they will not have to really spend until a group of homegrown players shows it can get to Wild Card quality.  

The only moves we are making now are to avoid complete embarrassment like they experienced after tearing the heart out of the team with those trades last summer.

Weiters

The current PBC management--FC and NH--haven't been on the job long enough to development the draft yet.  Last year was their first draft and no one can develop players in half a season so that haven't had a chance to show that ability yet.  It does seem that most people think the last draft was much better than the previous ones.

It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood.  And it's only:

33 DAYS UNTIL PITCHERS AND CATCHERS!!!

I completely understand that they have not been on the job long enough.  However, a total rebuilding is going to take a lot of time and a degree of luck that the players will avoid injuries and other setbacks.

If they continue to lose 90-100 games a year over the next several while the economy slumps, I think you are looking at decreased attendance and even lower payroll.  The average fan doesn't know or care about rebuilding.  They see the NFL and NHL and think that a few good moves will equal success.  What the Pirates are doing will take at least 3 more if not 5 more years to get to where the Rays were last year.  And there is no guarantee that they will.

If you just want to talk about sunshine and rainbows on the blog, I'll be happy to leave you to it.  Fact is, the Pirates are not going to field a very competitive team this year (on paper).  They may exceed expectations, but since they are widely viewed as one of the 2-3 worst teams in baseball, that is not saying much.

JAL -- << haven't been on the job long enough to development the draft yet.  >>  

Your point is good, but you've been working in Washington long.  You're verbing your nouns.  ;-)

A little late on this comment, but I'd like to say something about that donkey's butt writer from the Chicago Tribune who called Ryan Doumit a liar: so, hmm, let's see.....the Pirates have won what, four, count 'em FOUR World Series championships since the Cubs last won a title?  I'm laughing at the Cubs instead.  It's takes them $130 million to not make the World Series every season.  It only takes our Pirates 1/3 of that amount.  Jerk.

JH

Oh yes, I verbalized a noun--slap my head  :)

I thought I'd give you all a suggestion we can make comments about or laugh hysterically.   Doesn't Bonds look pretty good?  I wonder what kind of shape hes in?  Wondering if he still has some pop in his bat?  Wondering if his slimmed down body has the ability to play possibly RF?  Would he be willing to work along side our kids and show them how to hit?  He at one time was the best.  Ok you see where I'm going here.  Why not sign him for a year.  Hes been out of baseball for over a year no one seems to be interested.  Maybe we could get him cheaper then we think. Baseball community is already laughing at us for signing the boys from India (good title for a book).  Now that you guys are done laughing what do you all think.  Between him and Dale long they might be able to get some production out of these kids.  Who knows maybe Mccutcheon could be the next Bonds he has similar abilities.  Just a thought I will lay out there.

Bonds' head is still too big.  Literally and figuratively, of course.

HMMMM!!!  Lets be the brave Pirate team and sign players who have been out of baseball for over a year.  There's Barry Bonds, Marcus Giles, Jacque Jones,  Isn't there a pitcher by the Garcia also.  How bad can they be.  HMMMM!! pretty bad.

It is pretty big.  Don't you think though that his attitude might change if the only team that shows an interest is the lowly Prates.  Imagine all the teams in baseball and if he wants to play he'd be reduced to playing for the pirates.  I'm a chef that would be like me having to work a grill at Mcdonalds.  UGH!!!!!!

damik -- Put me down for laughing hysterically.  

Good morning everyone!

Wieters...Please take this in the light-hearted vein it's meant...They may look bad on paper, but they don't play on paper.  ;-)

dami

Marcus Giles signed with Phillies

Mid-Morning link

City native lands dream job with Pirates

www.nashuatelegraph.com/.../article

BRING BACK BARRY !!!

I hope that Rinku Singh and Dinesh Kumar Patel make a little headway and make the A or AA clubs in their career.  What a feel good story for them that would be. A nice story for baseball as well.  Maybe this will open the door for others and hopefully for the Pirates one day.  May not be in our lifetime but you never know.

I will say this, next year if Nate and Paul produce they should be signed long term.  This is the time that the FO will show us what they are about.  I am going with the building now but I do want some progrees on the build by signing those that make a good show of things.  Then they should sign the one, two or so FA's that will get us moving a little closer to the division title.  The the others in the minors will be stepping up around this time.  One or two years in the majors and the ones that produce should be signed as well.

@ WietersforPresident <<Tampa Bay drafted and developed and then either got lucky or made brilliant free agent moves to supplement.  >>

Which FA moves are you referancing?

HA ha ha LOL LOL  no on Barry unless it's as a minor league hitting coach.  Then only if he has his head screwed on right.

No way as a player and no I do not want another Baryy on this team.

President Wieters -- I was with you until you said

<< If you just want to talk about sunshine and rainbows on the blog, I'll be happy to leave you to it.  Fact is, the Pirates are not going to field a very competitive team this year (on paper). >>

I suppose the answer to that is, if you just want to talk gloom and doom and falling skies on this blog, I'll be happy to leave you to it.  But really, why should a forum be restricted to a single opinion?

Fact is all opinions are welcome here.  This year's club may be good or bad -- it has the potential to go either way -- the division's weak and despite what that clown at the Trib said yesterday, I'm not really sure that the Cubs have improved all that much.  

If we get the pitching we can put a respectable team on the field, and with Sanchez and Wilson healthy, Andy LaRoche settling in and hitting up to his history, Nyjer maintaining his lifetime stats, Nate and Doumit having good seasons, and Moss healthy and Adam giving us a full year we have that possibility.  Is that sunshine and rainbows, maybe?  But after last season, I'll be encouraged with partly cloudy and a light breeze.

I receive a daily e-mail from dictionary.com called "Word of the Day" and lo and behold, today's word is "hapless". Here's the definition:

hapless \HAP-lis\, adjective:

unlucky; unfortunate;

by 1568, meaning "destitute of hap"

Given some of the prior discussions here on this word, I was intrigued by the reference to its origin occurring in the 16th century and more particularly, by the reference to "hap" as a noun. So I decided to follow up on this inane endeavor a bit more and found the following:

hap

–noun

1. one's luck or lot.

Origin:  1150–1200; ME < ON happ luck, chance; akin to OE gehæp fit, convenient; prob. akin to OCS kobŭ auspice, OIr cob victory

So at one point in our language, or perhaps more accurately, the precursor to our modern language known as Middle English, there was such a thing as hap, which etymologically, eventually was dropped from the vernacular, leaving us today with the orphaned hapless.

Ok, enough inanity from me for today, enjoy this candidate for useless factoid of the day and apologies to anybody that I have agitated.........but if just one amongst you found this moderately interesting and/or entertaining, then my hap runneth over.

Regarding Rinku Singh and Dinesh Kumar Patel, when I saw a story on TV about this, I was surprised that these two weren't even cricket players.  As huge a sport as cricket, baseball's cousin, is in India, I would have thought that highly skilled cricket players might be a good pool of potential baseball talent.  Surely, even though bowling is a little bit different than pitching, and the bat shape is different, and the rules of the games are different, throwing, batting and fielding are all similar, and the skills are transferable.

As cricket is the national sport in India, yet these 2 are the first ever to sign a pro baseball contract in the US, I have to think there is a gold mine to be tapped into.  Go get 'em, Bucs!

emoneypitt didn't mean it this way, but here it is anyway:

"How many seasons [will] the losing streak get up to before they finally break it?"

18 looks like a probability, with 19 a strong possibility.

Does it really matter anymore once we reach August of 2009 and the record is ours to have and to hold until hell freezes over?

They don't play on paper, but this team did play at the end of last year after the trades and it was not good.  Most years, even though they were stopgap pickups, you could get excited about the possibility of Randa, Burnitz, Casey, etc.  Ok, maybe not Randa, since he was blocking Sanchez, but the point is you could say that the new team should be better than last years' team because things changed.  Not so with this team.  I guess that is what worries me.  If they were turning the team over to rookies and young guys like McCutchen, Walker, Pearce, etc. that would be one thing, but they aren't.  So we are caught in limbo without the next wave coming up and without decent MLB-quality players.  It has the potential to be really bad; though it has the potential to be good, which is why they play the games, i guess.

As for the Rays moves, I think they got Carlos Pena off the heap and he has done well and I don't recall how they got him, but Dan Wheeler was helpful to their run.

Speaking of Randa, has any one player been handled as poorly by one club with the ramifications Randa had?  We let him go in the Rule 5 or Expansion Draft, can't remember which, when we could have protected him not once, but twice.  He wound up a really solid 3B and was when he left, I think.  His exit caused the Bucs to shuffle 3Bs and eventually call up Ramirez too early.  His service clock started and he got too expensive before his peak years so the Bucs traded him for a sack of used baseballs.  Then we still had problems at 3B and decided to bring Randa back, only this time he was done and had nothing to offer.  Just a really odd sequence of events (assuming I remember them correctly).

There is a consensus that the NL Central is weak... how unrealistic is a prediction that the Bucs might actually be in the pennant race when September 2009 comes around with a .500 record, 5 games out of 1st place?

Good morning, all.  I don't have much to comment on today but I do want to say:

-  Chicken, I enjoyed that research on 'hap' - very interesting;

- Weiters, I agree with you on Randa - I was a bit unhappy when they let him go that first time and he had good years after that.  We have a habit of doing that:  sign FAs who have decent years and letting them go.  I had wished they kept Stairs a few years ago, also.  And this year I hope this doesn't happen to DD!!

"WTM...Tampa Bay drafted and developed and then either got lucky or made brilliant free agent moves to supplement."

No, Tampa Bay followed the typical pattern for successful lower revenue teams.  When Oakland started winning under Billy Beane, they had the second lowest payroll in their league.  When the Twins started winning in 2001, they had the lowest payroll in their league.  In 2007, the Rockies and D'backs, which aren't especially low-revenue franchises, were successful with young teams and payrolls that were only a little higher than the Pirates'.

"The PBC management has shown no ability to do that just yet."

Exactly.  And until that changes, they'll keep losing regardless of the payroll.

@WTM--

"The PBC management has shown no ability to do that just yet."

Exactly.  And until that changes, they'll keep losing regardless of the payroll.

The Old Pirate management did not show the ability to build with a low budget payroll.

I really don't know what people expect this new Pirate management team to do in a one year period of time, they have done exactly what Oakland, Tampa, Indians and Twins did to get to respectability, they did not do it in one year.

Here is another way to look at the Pirates, Look at them in 2007 like they were and expansion team in their first year, because that is about where they were at.

@Wieters...I meant that very light-heartedly.  I prefer to not see doom and gloom for the 2009 season just yet.  

Leadoff --

I agree with everything you say, in case it seemed otherwise.

Leadoff << Here is another way to look at the Pirates, Look at them in 2007 like they were and expansion team in their first year, because that is about where they were at. >>

Amazing, I was just going to post the same thought myself.  McLatchy, Bonifay, and Littlefield -- whatever fine qualities they might have posessed as human beings -- were not good for baseball operations.

I noticed the bench on the Pirates last night. Gary Redus, Gary Varsho, Carmelo Martinez, Don Slaught, Curtis Wilkerson, Lloyd McClendon. They could all start for this season.

People want the pirates to go out and get players, it sounds easy, but if you took a concensus of this blog alone, you might find out there are 10-20 players that we think the Pirates ought to get, I realize we are fans and we think like fans, we also think we have a lot of money, of course none of it is ours, so spending it is easy for us.

I hear comments like we need Dirty Doug back, I love the guy, but would I pay him if he can't get on the grass, where am I going to play him? you can only bring a couple more players in that will make this roster and they have to be fits.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Pirates payroll when they start winning will be among the lowest for the reasons discussed previously.  To maintain that success will become costly, though.  One only needs to look at the Pirates to see how calendar time is the enemy of payroll regardless of success.  When we see the arbitration figures, I think we will be surprised at how high they are.  

The trick is having a pile of talent arrive at the same time at low cost so the team starts winning, attendance increases, revenues go up and then payroll can increase (though only so high in our case).  

I think the thing that bothers the New York and Chicago teams and Prospective Free Agents, for that matter, is that the Pirates either passively choose to not compete in the marketplace or complain about lack of a cap but take their revenue sharing and/or luxury tax checks and pay down debt or build baseball academies in Latin America rather than investing it in the MLB team.  Last season they cut payroll in favor of a long range development plan that may or may not work instead of building on a successful offensive team by supplementing our young pitching talent with experienced pieces for stability.  I'm not arguing that we should have gone after Sabathia, but there are good FA SP out there to be had, we just are not going after them with the type of money that it would take to get a high demand guy.

Look, I am fascinated by the whole issue.  I am a lifelong Pirates fan who has not enjoyed a winning team since I was half of my current age.  We are a laughing stock of the highest order to be compared to the Bengals and Lions of the NFL.  It is a trainwreck and I cannot begin to understand why, aside from ownership incompetence or indifference, we have been unable to even accidentally put together a decent team.  I both love and hate the Pirates.  Right now, the hate is winning out over the love.

"The trick is having a pile of talent arrive at the same time at low cost so the team starts winning, attendance increases, revenues go up and then payroll can increase (though only so high in our case)."

There's absolutely no question that this is hard to do, harder than winning with the kind of money the Yankees, Boston, etc., have.  There's also absolutely no question that it can be done and has been done a number of times now.

One area where I credit the team's new management is that instead of whining about the game's economics as if it was impossible for the Pirates to win, the way McClatchy did, they continue to acknowledge that it can be done and maintain that they intend to do it.  Whether they're smart enough to do it remains to be seen.

If Bonds were to reappear in a Pirates uniform, I would not attend, listen to, or watch another game until he was gone.  For real.

@WTM--

One area where I credit the team's new management is that instead of whining about the game's economics as if it was impossible for the Pirates to win, the way McClatchy did, they continue to acknowledge that it can be done and maintain that they intend to do it.  Whether they're smart enough to do it remains to be seen.

I think they are smart enough, with baseball, a little luck would also be helpful, like most humans. THEY probably will make a few mistakes along the way. I realize with a lot of bloggers on these sites mistakes are not an option.

How good this management team is will be on display in June with the 2009 draft, there are at least 4 premium players in this draft and the Pirates can get one of them, this draft is also heavy with pitching. To me this is where we need to be focused, of course a trade here and there is also necessary.

If the Pirates take an average prospect in this draft when they good get an above average prospect, you know the money stopped flowing and we went to plan ABCDEFGHIJ!

Actually the trick is having a whole lot of talent in the minor leagues so that when it's possible to make a trade you have someone ready to step in for the player you lose -- then you can pick and choose which guys to sign to long term contracts and your trades will help restock your farm system.  

Paying down debt hopefully frees up cash for the future when you need it, and building Latin American Acadamies is an absolute essential to tap into that source of 30-40% ballplayers.

That's what we weren't doing until last year, and we are continuing to pay the price for it.  The worst thing we could do is load up on a bunch of stopgaps to break the streak.

Just my opinion, of course.

Weiters, I have to agree with everything you say.

Weiters

I respectably  disagree.  This is not the right time to go after a high demand player.  One player will not turn the team around.  First you build from within and then when you know what you have you fill in missing pieces.  The Brewers did not go after CC until they saw they had a chance to make the playoffs.  I go to my favorite example--Steve Carleton, 1972--27 and 10 with 1.97 ERA and the Phils finished 59 and 97.  

As for the baseball academy--that is an important building block for the d future.  One of the Pirate problems has been the lack of players from Latin America.

As for investing in the team--2 recent examples--the drafting and signing of PA--the first time in recent memory they took the player considered the best on the board when they drafted--and the contract with Doumit.  

As for the trades last year--we are  in different camps there and it it fruitless to discuss because only time will tell if it was a good move. I think it was a good move because they had a barren system and they were not winning with what they had.  A pitcher might have added some wins but not enough to compete for the playoffs.  Pre-trade Maholm had a 3.93 ERA and still only a 5-5 record.

It will be interesting to see what the Pirates do in the draft, if they take the obvious choice, or if they are gun shy of Scott Boras. The money may have dried up.

Good Day all.

I don't want Bonds back. For a list I won't go into here.

I hope Jay Bell gets in the HOF today - and that's just because I was a big fan of his in my youth.

If the current admin were throwing out a lot of money on FA's and handed Adam a Gigundo contract, there'd be people on here witching and moaning about them throwing money away. Since they haven't had a lot of moves, we're all witching about that - or a lot of people are.

The draft was good. The farm is getting restocked one vegetable at a time, but you don't harvest two weeks after planting. Yinz know that. Some days - and this is the truth - some days I feel for Neal and Frank, they take a beating either way from the fan base. But they have a job to do, I hope they do it well. So far I'm heartened. It's like being destitute and having to hock the few things you have of value to get the food you need. In this case Nady, Bay and Marte were the family jewels and Moss, Tabata and the rest were the rice and beans.

WietersforPresident <<Pena>>

Carlos Pena has turned into a very nice player for the Rays indeed, but he was only signed to a minor league contract with a ST invite in 2007; this coming after a couple bad outings at Detroit and the Yankees. He certainly turned into a gem out of the rough, but he certainly wasn’t like one of the sure thing can’t miss high priced FA that many of the more impatient posters here have been advocating; rather, he was one of those low risk, high potential type of acquisitions that the PBC has been utilizing. Sometimes you get a Pena that way, but more often you don’t. The Rays did nothing all that miraculous back in the winter of 2007 when they gave him a minor league contract. I believe that he earned $6 million last year. Of course we can go out and get Adam Dunn (2008 salary = $13 million) who at 28 is entering the prime years for big contracts.

Again, Pena was a good pickup, but he wasn’t a sure thing according to the rest of the league that didn’t offer him a major league contract in 2007. The Pirates are not acting differently than the 2007 Ray’s that you give credit too.

@Demery-

It will be interesting to see what the Pirates do in the draft, if they take the obvious choice, or if they are gun shy of Scott Boras. The money may have dried up.

The projections for the draft are that the Pirates will take the 2nd best pitcher in the draft, the number one pick in the draft is a pitcher and the Nationals will take him.

As for Boras and his little show with Alvarez, I am sure FC knew he would have to fight him then, FC won, and I am sure FC figures he will have to fight him as long as he is President of this team, another reason we are lucky to have FC, Littlefield let talent go if it had Boras label on it.

@leadoff:

<<s for Boras and his little show with Alvarez, I am sure FC knew he would have to fight him then, FC won, and I am sure FC figures he will have to fight him as long as he is President of this team, another reason we are lucky to have FC, Littlefield let talent go if it had Boras label on it.>>

Well said. Bravo. Attaway.

At least FC can go to the mat when it's worth taking to the mat. Pedro was believed to be worth it and I hope he proves that to all.

POH

With the projected profit of your PBC , I would hardly refer to them as destitute.  

As long as Pirates fans continue to view this as a poor franchise, then ownership can get away with not spending  to either acquire or keep quality players.  

Ownership is inept at giving the fans a competeitive team but quite slick in returning a nice profit to the limited partners;  questions linger about new management.

Does anyone have a list of the top players in the next draft? So we can keep an eye on some of these guys.

@Cave--

As long as Pirates fans continue to view this as a poor franchise, then ownership can get away with not spending  to either acquire or keep quality players.  

I did not know anyone viewed this team as poor franchise, reality is they are not a franchise that can compete with the Yankees and the Redsox.

The Pirates have never said they can't compete, they know and I know they can.

As far as the Pirates making a profit, you will be a fan of another team when the day comes when they are not making a profit.

Demery

Monitor the Baseball America website for insights in the 2009 draft.

Speaking of BB America, the online edition will present the Pirates Top 10 prospects on January, 21.  

@Demery-

Here is a list, there are many right now and players are in different postions on different sites.

Alex White, Dustin Ackley and Kyle Gibson are players that draft projectors think the Pirates are intersted.

Draft#:1

Stephen Strasburg

Ht/Wt:/ lbs

Position:RHP

Drafted From:San Diego State

Draft#:2

Alex White

Ht/Wt:/ lbs

Position:RHP

Drafted From:UNC

Draft#:3

Grant Green

Ht/Wt:/ lbs

Position:SS

Drafted From:USC

Draft#:4

Dustin Ackley

Ht/Wt:/ lbs

Position:CF/1B

Drafted From:UNC

Draft#:5

Aaron Crow

Ht/Wt:/ lbs

Position:RHP

Drafted From:Fort Worth Cats

Draft#:6

Tanner Scheppers

Ht/Wt:/ lbs

Position:RHP

Drafted From:Fresno State

Draft#:7

Kyle Gibson

Ht/Wt:/ lbs

Position:RHP

Drafted From:Missouri

Draft#:8

Donovan Tate

Ht/Wt:/ lbs

Position:CF

Drafted From:Cartersville HS (GA)

Draft#:9

Tyler Matzek

Ht/Wt:/ lbs

Position:LHP

Drafted From:Capistrano Valley HS (Calif.)

Draft#:10*

Andy Oliver

Ht/Wt:/ lbs

Position:LHP

I don't recall writing that the Pirates pick up stopgaps, unless of course it is for a good reason like filling a veteran leadership/coaching role a la Dougie Baseball.  My point was that if you do not even try to improve by either adding those stopgaps or promoting your prospects, you are hoping for the statistical improbability that all players on our roster will perform above their historical performance.   As such, you give fans very little reason to think that the team can improve over last year, so why care?

I actually think that if this team is guilty of anything it is going only half-way.  Why try to give the appearance that last year and this year are important for the MLB team if it is not so?  Why not trade Wilson for whatever you can get to save those dollars for the future, especially given the large number of SS on the market this off-season?  Why not spend more on the draft (Boston spent almost as much as us and they did not have a big ticket guy like Alvarez)?  Why not build more academies in other areas?  Why not pay some bigger bonuses to foreign prospects if the market demands it?  Why not sign more guys from India?  In short, why spend anything on the MLB team if you are really targeting 2011 for a competitive team and why not put almost all of your resources into development staff and resources of the highest quality in the minor league and scouting systems?

I think the answer is that the majority of the fan base would not support such a strategy, attendance would fall faster, and the team might not be able to turn a profit.

As for Pena, I would whole-heartedly support such an acquisition, but please don't imply that Baldelli is that kind of guy.  He has been hurt for 4 years and played very little.  The Pirates should take risk on young high upside guys, but they need to be practical and not just waste money if the guy cannot play every day.  If the Rays truly are a model for the Bucs, and I think they are, why should we be going after their cast-offs?  If Baldelli were valuable and inexpensive, they would have kept him, no?

I support the team rebuilding if that is what they are doing and I would support team building from what they have if they chose to do that.  What I'm not sure of is why they cannot pick a clear path and stick to it.

I'd absolutely sign Bonds now. One year minimum salary contract with incentives. Best batting coach you could have. Just watch Barry. Heck, Roberto Clemente was ornery too.  

Also, Nomar Garciaparra is available.  Not too old. If healthy, could be a steal.  A nice right handed bat and hitter for average.  

There are no "Joe Randa" type players, so that argument doesn't fly here.

Their profit is being invested in themselves instead of the PBC. Let's say their Reasearch and Development budget is a disgrace.

As for what the Pirates say, that really doesn't mean much.  It is the competancy and validity of their actions that I am more interested in.

The Pirates are going to have a difficult time avoiding Boras.  He represents Strasburg, Ackley and Green, as well as Donovan Tate, who's probably the top high school position player.  I think he represents either White or Gibson, too, but I'm not sure.

The market now for good free agents favors ownership with the bad economy. Could have a hall of famer for one season for a really good price.  The Pirates shouldn't close the door on these ideas. Otherwise ticket sales will suffer in '09.  I love Doumit and Nate, but let's face it: Bonds or Nomar or someone of that ilk will sell more seats.

Weiters

Baldelli was not hurt--hurt implies injured.  He has a medical problem that was not properly  diagnosed.  The new information is that his problem is more treatable.  The contract he signed with the Red Sox take that in account and i am sure if he had accepted the Pirate's offer their contract would have too-making him a low-risk player who may give a big return.

Good stuff on the draft picks. Looks like they're going to have to deal with Boras.

The problem with bringing in a Bonds or Garciaparra now is that you ask them to carry too much of a load.  They almost cannot succeed because even if they do really well individually, team failure will taint their results.  Add them to last years first half offense, and now you have a legitimate playoff style hitting team.

By the way, did anyone notice that Scheppers was #6 on the list leadoff posted?  I know he wasn't 100% last year, but I think if you are going to draft that guy, you should sign him.  We get a compensation pick this year, but the point of the pick was to get a top guy you couldn't get normally having picked Alvarez at a bargain price.  Whoever we get will probably take an extra year to get to the show and help the squad.

I don't want to sound overly critical, but I do think that we should question the motives of Ownership and Management, whether Nutting thinks it is appropriate or not.  We view the Pirates as our team and that our opinions should matter.  They do not.

Larry Z,

Do you really see Barry Bonds as a teacher?

JAL

Baldelli has been injured and on the DL often over the past few years, including ACL tear, elbow and hamstring problems.  

Cave -- I thought PoH's metaphor was destitute of talent, not unprofitable.

Wieters for Pres. -- Read your post and it seems like you are advocating what they are doing already.  Brought up the prospects, Hansen, Karstens, Olendorf, Andy LaRoche, Moss, Nyjer, Cruz, Bixler -- cupboard was pretty bare after that.  

Tried to trade Wilson.

Kept Meek.

Who did they skip in the draft to take a lower-cost player?

Path seems pretty clear -- I suppose you can quibble over Vazquez and Bootcheck and the non-roster invitees, but they might just find their Pena-type guy there.

Wieters

If we are to take management at their word, I believe they did the right thing when they passed on Scheppers.  They would have been villified, and rightly so, if they signed him,  and he was never able to overcome his arm problems.

@  WietersforPresident <<Why not trade Wilson for whatever you can get to save those dollars for the future, especially given the large number of SS on the market this off-season? >>

You don’t trade him for what you can get now for the same reason you didn’t do so with Bay last year. Like the offers for Bay last year, they feel that the return is not good enough. Like Bay’s 2007 stats, JW’s stats last year are a little weak, and we may be able to get better value later if he can demonstrate that he is both healthy and that he hasn’t lost a step.

Regardless of what anybody thinks of the Bay trade last year, his value was certainly higher than it was in the winter. There is little doubt in my mind that Wilson will be traded this year, but I don’t want us to just give him away for the proverbial bag of balls, we may yet get a reasonable return for him later.

Hadar

If they spent some money, and properly evaluated their acquisitions, then there is no reason to be destitute of talent.

You have to take BA's rating of Scheppers with a grain of salt.  They're clearly assuming he'll be 100% healthy, but nobody knows whether that'll be the case.  And the Pirates had no chance of getting Scheppers at a "bargain price."  The idea was to pick a guy with a 2nd round pick who, if he'd been healthy, would have gone early in the 1st round.  If he'd have been able to show the Pirates he was healthy, he'd have commanded 1st round money, which I'm sure they were prepared to pay.  But he wasn't healthy by the time the signing deadline rolled around.

The Pirates used the "Scheppers money" to sign Quinton Miller, who's a very good prospect.

Baldelli has had bad hamstrings, a quad injury, a torn ACL, got Tommy John surgery on his right arm, and has a litany of 'issues' that cannot be summarized in a single diagnosis.

www.projo.com/.../sp_bb_sox09_03-09-08_VQ9AB7F_v11.2f76b21.html

He may not be "injured" today, but you have to admit, he has quite the injury history.

>> I'd absolutely sign Bonds now.......best batting coach you could have. <<

It's difficult for me to envision Bonds being an effective batting coach, let alone the best. He has always been about one thing only, namely Barry Bonds.

Also, good hitters do not necessarily translate into good hitting coaches. Case in point, Ted Williams, who some believe had the greatest natural swing ever.  

Demery44 opines:

I noticed the bench on the Pirates last night. Gary Redus, Gary Varsho, Carmelo Martinez, Don Slaught, Curtis Wilkerson, Lloyd McClendon. They could all start for this season.

Duke84 responds:

No, the really couldn't.

Your act is getting old, Larry.

JHadar, I am not really advocating what they are doing already.  In fact, I think it is ludicrous that we would make trades to address organizational depth in the Minors that would require us to place those players in the Majors right away.  We got a pile of AAA players that were promoted because we had noone to play on our AAAA team.  Meanwhile, our minors have almost exactly as much talent as they did before the trades.  

If they would have backfilled the team with cheap free agent stopgaps while those prospects developed, that would be another story, but they didn't do that.

As for Scheppers...I don't know that I would kill them for taking a risk if he never panned out.  I would have offered him an incentive based contract that paid like a top pick if he was healthy with the understanding that you will have to give $2-3M to get him to agree in the first place.  That way you minimize exposure while giving the guy a chance.

As for the Wilson trade...I think he becomes progressively less valuable as he ages and as his contract comes to a close.  You may be right that they should trade him at peak value, but I'm not sure what good it does us to have Wilson and Adam LaRoche on the team this year costing 25% of the payroll unless the replacements are so bad that you could not deal with the poor play or if it triggers a massive fan backlash leading to low attendance.

I will not argue that they should get what they can for Wilson, but what is the sense of forcing a third prospect from the Dodgers, if that really was the sticking point?  Why not take Young and Hu and move on?

Henderson and Rice elected to the HOF.

@ WietersforPresident <<What I'm not sure of is why they cannot pick a clear path and stick to it.>>

This management team has stated that they will build a contender primarily through the draft, Latin American operations, and trades that make baseball sense. They have stated time and again that they would not become major players in the FA market until it made baseball sense to do so. This management team is entering into their second season, they haven’t been there long enough to demonstrate that they have strayed far from that stated path at all, but it seems to me that they are sticking to that story.

WTM...why is there "Scheppers money" and not more?  Why not spend $15M per year on the draft while you are building talent in the minors?  Why not be much more aggressive than everyone else to the point of lunacy, rather than only pushing a little?  I know picks are risky, but it is the EASIEST way to get talent on your team and under your control.  Find the best HS kids and draft them in and after Round 3, fill your minor leagues with these kids and teach them with the best coaches money can buy.  Then you have the best chance of the kids arriving in Pittsburgh ready to play, no?

Weiters and cave

My error on Baldelli, although the hamstring probelms do seem related to the medical condition.  The ACl and elbow problems are injuries.

@Cave - I didn't mean in money, for destitute, I meant in farm talent. I was trying, unsuccessfully, to use an analogy.

>>the Pirates plan to increase that once they feel they have an internal core comparable to that of the Brewers.<<

I liked Sandlot's "Pirates-22." Another slant on the quote is simply that the Pirates never keep anyone who is good long enough to need to spend more. Everyone good gets traded before they become FAs or has signed a relatively inexpensive long term contract that carries them through arbitration and maybe a FA year. Bucs management has rarely been face to face with the immediate prospect of paying a high salary to one of their own who is about to become a FA.

@WietersforPresident wrote re: Morning links: A time for Towels

on Jan 12, 2009 1:37 PM

My point was that if you do not even try to improve by either adding those stopgaps or promoting your prospects, you are hoping for the statistical improbability that all players on our roster will perform above their historical performance.   As such, you give fans very little reason to think that the team can improve over last year, so why care?

______

This part of your argument is the same for every team every year.  Players do not produce the same every year after year.  Good and fair players have a different average in ERA's, Batting averages, RBI's, HR's, feilding and so on.

It's the great unknown of baseball.  Breakout years for new guys, Failures for veterans.  You have to hope all improve or play better than their stats to win it all.

Can;t count on stopgaps or young players not being ready for the big show.  we have youngters now that we will get a clue on for next year.  Then hope we find young or faily young players to bring in via FA, trades, or promotions to hope get us over the hump.

WietersforPresident <<Why not take Young and Hu and move on?>>

I have no problem with that if that is the best that we think that we will ever get in a deal, but if we think we can get a better deal later, then I'm OK with that too.

That is a decision that has to be made by someone with a lot more info and insight than I or anyone here has at their disposal. Having never seen any of those players play, all we have are the stats. I assume that we have scouts that have seen these players and have placed some kind of grade/value on them. If NH & FC are saying “no thanks” based on knowledge, then I support their stance. After about 15 months of holding the team’s steering wheel, I think that most (not all) of their moves have been positive to the ultimate end of building the franchise from the bottom up.

Wieters -- Thanks, I see what your opinion is.  I disagree.  I do not think that "making trades to address organizational weakness in the minors is ludicrous." except that if Littlefield had been halfway competent we never would have been in that position.  Your namesake being the featured exhibit.  

Nonetheless, you have to play the hand you're dealt.  Suppose we had gone on to sign Bay, Nady and Marte to long term deals -- we'd be hauling out Bautista, Herrara, Vanbenschotten, and Moskos and whoever else we could scrape out of that bare cupboard and be guaranteed another 5-10 years of losing.  True we'd be losing 12-10 instead of 5-3, but it would count just the same.

Cave -- << If they spent some money, and properly evaluated their acquisitions, then there is no reason to be destitute of talent. >>

I was explaining what I thought PoH meant.  I think you're taking words out of context.  It's ok to just say without you mean without putting new and unitended meaning into what I say.  I agree with you, though.  That's why Nutting fired McLatchy and Littlefield and hired Coonelly and Huntington.

Pirata 13 -

>>Bonds' head is still too big.  Literally and figuratively, of course.<<

From the literal point of view, I will at least grant him this. The head is not so big that it blocks the view of the building of which he's standing in front. A year or so ago, the head was so big it was rumored to cause solar eclipses at the ballpark.

I agree with you about boycotting the Pirates if Bonds were signed. He's an alleged criminal. How would Steeler fans react if OJ Simpson had been hired as an assistant coach?  Bonds is not someone you want on your team simply from a "doing what's right in life" standpoint.

Roberto Clemente had class.  

Attempting to put Bonds and Clemente in the same class is an insult to Clemente.

Now that Rice has been elected, does Parker receive greater consideration?

Rice - 382 HR's, 1451 RBI, 2,452 H, .298 BA, .850 OPS, 0 BA Titles, 0 WS titles, 8-time AS, 16 Seasons

Parker - 339 HR's, 1493 RBI, 2,712 H, .290 BA, .810 OPS, 2 BA Titles, 2 WS, 7-time AS, 19 Seasons

Rice has the statistical advantage, considering that he played three fewer seasons, but viewed in aggregate, it is pretty close. Pretty decent pre-steriod area stuff.

Qualitatively, Rice feels more like a HOF to me than Parker, but part of that may be a bias against him given his ignominious exit from Pittsburgh.

At any rate, too bad he wasted his talent mid-career here, or he'd be a shoo-in. 1981-83 were lost seasons for him as was arguably 1980 (considering he was in his prime).

One more poster wading into the breach here...

PoH: <@Cave - I didn't mean in money, for destitute, I meant in farm talent. I was trying, unsuccessfully, to use an analogy.> and previously,

Cave: <If they spent some money, and properly evaluated their acquisitions, then there is no reason to be destitute of talent.>

But the PBC, currently, is destitute of talent due, most would say, to the fact that the previous PowersThatBe (TM) did not properly evaluate the talent and did not properly spend the money.  As such, the current PTB have to make the hard choice to sell their last remaining items of value in order to stock up on a little staple foods and some seeds and seedlings for upcoming harvests.  They also need to continue to select hearty, vibrant specimens to replace the current crop when harvest time rolls around.

(Did I do a better job on the analogy? *g*)

Duke ,thanks for the advice I'll sharpen my "act" up.

"WTM...why is there "Scheppers money" and not more?  Why not spend $15M per year on the draft while you are building talent in the minors?  Why not be much more aggressive than everyone else to the point of lunacy, rather than only pushing a little?"

All I can say is that they spent the 4th highest total ever on draft bonuses, so it's hard to say they didn't go above and beyond the call.  Everybody goes into the draft with a budget--obviously, or other teams would have spent $15M at some time or other--and that was theirs.

Ultimately, there's a limit to what you can spend.  There's only so much talent out there so you'd reach a point where you were just throwing money away.  But why they couldn't spend, say, $12M, I don't know.  There were a couple other guys I'd have liked to see them sign, apart from Scheppers.

That has nothing to do with Scheppers, though, because from what I understand (which is primarily based on DK's reporting) it wasn't the budget so much as they simply didn't think he was worth what he wanted.  He was demanding the bonus he'd have commanded if he was healthy, and he wasn't healthy.  Nobody, not even the Yankees, simply writes a blank check just to get a guy signed.  Every team has some notion of what a player is worth.

Sir L

Very good with the analogy.  A farm makes a good one as farmers are always looking for the best crops.  Plant the wrong one and you get a poor crop that gets diseases.  :)

@G-Man wrote re: Morning links: A time for Towels

on Jan 12, 2009 2:24 PM

>>the Pirates plan to increase that once they feel they have an internal core comparable to that of the Brewers.<<

I liked Sandlot's "Pirates-22." Another slant on the quote is simply that the Pirates never keep anyone who is good long enough to need to spend more. Everyone good gets traded before they become FAs or has signed a relatively inexpensive long term contract that carries them through arbitration and maybe a FA year. Bucs management has rarely been face to face with the immediate prospect of paying a high salary to one of their own who is about to become a FA.

______

This is a new time with this management.  Let's see what happens next year with Nate and Paul if they have good years once again.  Although they will not be FA's yet at that time.  Then you may say they let them all go before signing them.  That was the past.  Time to live in the current time and look at the future. IF it repeats then you nare correct and we may as well let them move the team or look for a new owner.

On Parker and Rice --

If you look at Rice's career home/road splits, it's clear Fenway played a big role in his career.  Rice's career numbers were 320/374/546 at home and 277/330/459 on the road, so he was a great hitter at home and just a pretty good one on the road.  That hardly supports a HOF case.

Parker no doubt suffers from the fact that he threw away what should have been his prime years on drug use and poor conditioning.  These are perfectly legitimate considerations, in my view.  I don't consider him or Rice as belonging in the Hall.

Time for me to head off some late meetings  I leave you with an afternoon link

Sox will wait on Bay -- for now

www.boston.com/.../sox_will_wait_o.html

SirL -

>>to sell their last remaining items of value in order to stock up on a little staple foods and some seeds and seedlings for upcoming harvests.<<

Aieeee! The blog has turned into the Prairie Home Companion. ;-)  All kidding aside, you did well expanding on PoH's analogy. Have a Hap Cap.   __/_H_\

community.post-gazette.com/.../hap_5F00_cap.jpg

mad -

I agree that this is new management and they deserve some benefit of the doubt. My concern is that ownership is still the same and they control the amount of money available to FC and NH to spend on payroll. We have no actual evidence that Nutting really has or will change. It's good to have faith and hope that things will be different. FC and NH surely ought to make better baseball decisions than Littlefield and McClatchy were doing. But I cannot be naive and assume the best will happen when it comes to spending just because they say so. It will eventually have to be proven. But, I do have hope. Just looking over my shoulder from time to time.

G-Man

"But I cannot be naive and assume the best will happen when it comes to spending just because they say so. It will eventually have to be proven. But, I do have hope. Just looking over my shoulder from time to time."

______

I do not have blind faith either and will be looking to see what happens next year in signing Nate and Paul if they prove they are worth it.  Also spending some on an FA or two, trades if and where needed.  This will tell about the future of the team and spending habits going forward.  

I think Parker will forever be linked to the drug affair and thus be lessened in many voters opinion however if two of them could vote for Jay Bell anything can happen.

An offshoot to the current discussion.  I was looking for a case in point about pitching.  The 1967 Pirates hit .277/.323/.380.  The next best team that year, St. Louis, hit .263/.317/.379...  The league average was .249/.310/.373.  That's right, that team outhit the next closes team in the league 14 points in average, had an OBP 6 points higher and outslugged the next best team by 7 points.  

On defense that year the Bucs led the league in double plays, and were in a 4-way tie for fourth in fielding pct. at .978.  Fielding pct. ranged from .981 to .974 (less than 1% variation).

However their pitching was 9th in ERA, hits, and runs allowed and 10th in strikeouts and bases on balls.

They finished 81-81, 6th out of 10 teams, despite utterly dominating the league in hitting.  They were 20.5 games out.

St. Louis also had the second best pitching stats that year and finished 10.5 games ahead of second place San Francisco.

Last year with Bay and Nady in the line-up they were middle of the pack at best in every hitting category except runs -- a strange but beneficial anomaly.  They were last in pitching and were struggling with Houston and Cincinnati for the 4th, 5th and 6th positions in a 6 team division.

This continues to be the major hope (that our pitching will get better this year) and worry (that it won't) for this team.

JHadar excellent support for building the pitching depth. Old trueism in sport, "if the other team doesn't score we never lose" Obviously not the perfect philosophy but it underlines the importance of pitching and speaks to the bay,Nady trades as being steps in the right direction

@Mad-

I do not have blind faith either and will be looking to see what happens next year in signing Nate and Paul if they prove they are worth it.  Also spending some on an FA or two, trades if and where needed.  This will tell about the future of the team and spending habits going forward.  

I would have to assume from your comments that if Nate and Paul are not signed that you would be saying the Pirates are not moving forward?

The Pirates, Indians, Twins and A's would trade Nate and Paul in a heartbeat if they could not sign them, that is the reality of modern baseball, we tend to want to blame the team when we can't sign a player, I want to win as bad as anyone, but I don't want to see the team overpay for a player, we will not lose them for nothing, like we did with Rameriz, If you want to conclude whether we are moving forward or backward, wait until Paul and Nate are dealt with, that includes trading them if necessary and what you get if you do move them.

One thing I will say regarding Paul Maholm and Nate McClouth: If they both have another year up to their standards this season, the Pirates are really going to need to show the fans that they truly are committted to winning, cave in and give them the good money. The Pirates are starting to do things right with the draft and international prospects but it needs to be shown at the major league level. If they do keep their current talent and good draft talent rises from the minors, this will enable a competitive team. I really believe the situation with these two players, granted they don't dramatically fall off from last year's performance, is going to define whether Nutting and Co (TM in the vain of SirL :) ) are truly committed to building a championship ball club like they say that they are.

Lochsby

Well put, except those that held the prior and current purse strings were both named Nutting.

JAL: Thanks.

G-Man:  You shoulda seen my face light up when I saw the Hap Cap.  I'd have to check, but I think it's my first of the "individually bestowed" variety.  Thanks!!

Cave:  True, which is why, while I have hope-- PLENT... um, yeah.--- that we're headed in the right direction, there's still a lot of proving to be done.  Time to "reach."

www.youtube.com/watch

(And G-Man: the link is bluegrass, not country. Don't want to have to go giving back HapCaps just when I get one. *G*)

Lochsby

Congrats on your first individually bestowed HC.  Wear it well, but be sure to keep it out of the rain.

@ JHadar -- kudos for the interesting and value-added analysis of Harry the Hat's '67 team.

Chicken -- Thanks . . . I think that was the first team to be called the Lumber Company and the one of which it was said "some teams say, O boy here comes a fastball, or O boy here comes a curveball, but these guys say, O boy, here comes a baseball."

Nobody's seen this yet?

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

I'm guessing it's not going to go over well.

Evening All,

 Not to change the subject but the Pirates web page has a story up about the possibility of DD returning.

Not good at all.

@leadoff wrote re: Morning links: A time for Towels

on Jan 12, 2009 3:43 PM

@Mad-

I do not have blind faith either and will be looking to see what happens next year in signing Nate and Paul if they prove they are worth it.  Also spending some on an FA or two, trades if and where needed.  This will tell about the future of the team and spending habits going forward.  

I would have to assume from your comments that if Nate and Paul are not signed that you would be saying the Pirates are not moving forward?

________

I will borrow this from emoneypitt

"The Pirates are starting to do things right with the draft and international prospects but it needs to be shown at the major league level. If they do keep their current talent and good draft talent rises from the minors, this will enable a competitive team. I really believe the situation with these two players, granted they don't dramatically fall off from last year's performance, is going to define whether Nutting and Co (TM in the vain of SirL :) ) are truly committed to building a championship ball club like they say that they are"

Another words I believe what they are doing to get talent in the system (minors). At some point they will have to sign one or two of our players that justify the signing for the future.  I do not have a problem with trades if it improves the team.  Just not trading them for more prospects once we have the foundation and looking to move forward. Trades will always happen in baseball.  When and why you do it is the questions that will need to be answered.

I would trade one of them if the return was something that fit this team because we are close to making the playoffs.  The trade brings in someone to help the team where we are weak.  Not more more prospects at that time or to dump the salary.  This is when we will learn the intent of the owners.

From the article on the Pirates official site:

"I gave them my word, so I have to [tell them]," Mientkiewicz said. "But I think from the way the winter has been handled, I think their answer to me is a pretty definitive answer. It's probably a, 'Thanks, but no thanks.'

"That being said, am I open still to Pittsburgh? Yeah, sure," he continued. "But in my heart, I'm moving on."

Crappola. Srsly. I get it, but I don't like it. That make sense?

PoH: <I get it, but I don't like it. That make sense?>

Yes, and I agree.  He has to go where he can play, and he'll proabably get an offer for more money, even as a bench player.

Can we still sign him and trade him for Pujols?

When DD says

"The kids that they are going to throw out there are going to need a breather mentally. They need someone off the bench to hit, and right now, I don't see it."

This is true left handed or not.  Bring back Doug!

Spot starts and bench help is needed and we do not have anyone to fill that roll right now.

That is unless your not hungry then it's a role that needs filled...

I know we need a right-handed bat, but how can they pass up that experience...especially from a player who wants to play here?

I may cry now.  

DD said he wanted to go out and find a team that would let him play full time, he knows the risks, the team may have found someone they like better, with him waiting to get a better offer, he probably hurt his chances here. The Pirates are not the ones that need to do the contacting, Doug needs to contact them, if they don't respond, then he might as well forget it. They still have bench needs, so I would not rule him out yet.

Not sure what difference it makes which way MIentkiewicz hits.  For his career, his OPS is .771 against LHPs and .763 against RHPs.

@WTM--

This is a tough position for the Pirates, this is a guy that the fans like a lot, but isn't a good fit for them.

Since Doug told the Pirates he would give them a chance to match or beat any offer he got why should they make an attempt to contact him? He told them, in effect, don't call me I'll call you. So what's the fuss? We have a coaching staff to provide leadership and instruction. Players need to be able to play and contribute as players.

I guess this is why I wouldn't make a good general manager, and why Neal makes the big bucks ... you gotta keep your cards close to your chest. You think ol' Baywatch would be good at keeping his cards close to his chest.

No.

I mean, first time I heard Doug say he was going to call me when another team vied for my playing time, I'd have to sign him ... or at worst do the guy the favor of a phone call and say, "We're not interested, go ahead on."

But I guess the guy playing his cards close has a lot more to consider ... I just hate the cold business side of things.

Did anyone read the commenter section of the Doug Story on pirateball? Looks like they lost 25 fans (snap) just like that!

"The biggest concern from management's perspective has been finding a fit for Mientkiewicz on the field. In terms of Mientkiewicz's leadership abilities and clubhouse presence, Pirates management certainly would welcome both back. It's the availability of playing time that hasn't been so clear cut. "

am i missing something here? the pirates are going to mostly play guys that would be AA or AAA guys on ohter teams and they can't find a place for Mientkiewicz?

people..this year's team will make last year 2nd half joke of a club look like the 1927 yankess..how long are you folks going to give this owner and his cheap labor management force the benefit of the doubt. The pitching last year was an absolute joke--did i miss something in the  off season? how did this club get any better? they ARE WORSE

WAKE UP

everyone of the guys that played hard last yr...nady/bay/gomez/Mientkiewicz/ chavez and  michaels is gone.we're left with a bunch of guys who mailed it in the 2nd half..great...nice job by the management......truly pathetic

ron d - First of all let me say, WELCOME BACK, RON D .. WHERE THE HECK HAVE YOU BEEN? Now I'M the one with his CAPS LOCK STUCK and you're all lower case!

Second, let me say: "Well, there you go again," in his best Ronald Reagan to Jimmy Carter voice!

Seriously, ron d, it's good to have you back. Hope you've been doing OK.

Ron D

I am awake, you are asleep.  They are neither worse nor better-it is January.  Unless you have a crystal ball you have no idea what the team will look like in April.  They may be better, they may be worse, they may be a repeat.  Mientkiewicz is not the key to this team.  The season will depend on whether the pitchers do a better job.  The pitching was awful last season--it too can't be much worse.

How are they worse--Adam is Adam, Freddie is Freddie, if Wilson plays he an upgrade over the SS position in the 2nd half,  Andy can't get any worse than he was last season, Doumit is Doumit, McLouth is McLouth, Nyjer is Nyjer, Moss looks like he will be ready, Pearce will get a chance,  Vazquez could be a good off the bench as anyone they had last season.  No significant improvement but no significant downgrade either--on paper--now lets see what happens

>> everyone of the guys that played hard last yr...nady/bay/gomez/Mientkiewicz/ chavez and  michaels is gone.we're left with a bunch of guys who mailed it in the 2nd half <<

McLouth and Doumit mailed it in during the 2nd half of the season?  I must have missed that.

Ron D

Oh really ? Doumit and McLouth did not play hard? WAKE UP

Chicken

Scary--we posted almost the same thing

and JAL is JAL! I love you, man!

Bay, you are such a sentimentalist. It is one of your many good qualities. I agree it is very difficult to think with your head and not your heart but I think if we just looked at production without attaching the name NH would be vilified for signing Doug again unless there were absolutly no better alternative. Now before all the DD fans out there start plucking their chickens and boiling the tar for me remember Doug was part of the second half "sleep walk" which means his vaunted leadership ability didn't do so good after August 1. Let the kids play,

Bay

Just having fun--been out most of the afternoon and evening and now ready to rest --Thanks

Well, check the blog off and on all day and nothing happens, then go away to spend time with Mrs. H and the puppies, and BLAM.  

I'm with Mr. Berra on this -- It ain't over 'til it's over.  Neal, FC, there's still time.  

Probably a good thing I did take the break when I did, or I would have been upset and the quality time wouldn't have been there.

Sign Doug while there's still time.  I wonder if he's had any offers yet.  This FA market has to be harder on the players than the fans.

@ JAL - And it was a non-quantitative post to boot....I start stepping outside of my comfort zone and voila, I find I can JAL too!

@ Baywatch - love the picture with the Angels batting helmet. You sort of look like a combination of Brian Downing and General Patton.

JAL & Chicken - That was absolutely incredible that you guys said something so identical ... ron d, that was too unanimous, man, you were just WRONG about Doumit and McLouth!

(Now, that being said we've truly missed you around here ... don't go missing too long)

Chicken - You absolutely cracked me up with the impression I made on you regarding my new Angels helmet avatar ... and at the same time who the heck wouldn't want to be a combination of Brian Downing and Gen. George "I'm Going in Firing my Pearl-Handled .45's, By Gawd" Patton! LOL!

(BTW, Brian Downing was one of my favorite players: A working man's kind of guy with a DIFFERENT batting stance!)

JHadar - Good evening. I'm probably no longer Bayfus since I ditched my Barney Dreyfuss avy, right?

bjohnson921 said:

"There is a consensus that the NL Central is weak... how unrealistic is a prediction that the Bucs might actually be in the pennant race when September 2009 comes around with a .500 record, 5 games out of 1st place?"

The way I see it, that will be about 1 month after I win the $200 million Powerball lottery AND the Dow hits 17,000 AND the Israelis and Palestinians hold the first annual Jerusalem Lovefest AND Bernie Madoff pays off all his investors with interest AND Pitt and Penn State kiss and makeup, scheduling a perpetual home and home football series for the last game of each year AND...

Bay -- hope that "Bayfus" was not the reason you changed avatars!  

JAL -- You are right about Doug being another part in the big machine, but there are reasons why some guys become fan favorites, and I hope he was speaking out of frustration, and that FC and Neal will do the right thing and sign him anyway.  

Let's see, eight starters, twelve pitchers, a back-up catcher, Pearce, Vazquez, Mientkiewicz, and McCutcheon or one of the Non-roster guys . . . works for me for now.  

Well, I gotta call it a night, but remember:  I'm pullin' for ya', we're all in this together