Morning links: One fan's message

I understand that Yukon Cornelius and Don Cornelius are considering giving up their season tickets as well.

The guy makes excellent points - and the Pirates should understand that ST holders like him have shown more loyalty than anyone sane would.  It's easy to be a Yankees or Red Sox fan, making the playoffs (almost) every year, watching your team on ESPN every night, spending the winter watching...well...spending.  Being a Pirates fan is a JOB.

Let me add...

Congrats to Pitt fans and the team on their well-deserved first #1 ranking.  Must be a nice feeling for one's school to finally reach that lofty perch.  It was certainly most enjoyable watching the former #1 go down to Boston College - the team picked 11th in the 12-team ACC.

The Big East teams are going to kill each other this year...as are the ACC's.  Look who holds the #2, 3, and 4 spots this week.  Some epic matchups to come in both conferences.

Excellent letter to the Pirate ticket office by Andy J. Cornelius!

New management in the front office always puts the blame on previous management, in regard to bad contracts, trades, drafts etc.

The Pirates were closer to being at least a .500 team before the 2008 season then they will for the next several years.  The Jason Bay trade was plain dumb!  He wanted to resign with the Pirates, his contract was low compared to what other players with his stats get.  He had one bad year (2007)because he was hurt, never complained or used his injuries as a excuse.

Its all about MONEY with the Pirate Organazition.

Congrats Mr. Cornelius.

The best way to stop an unhealthy addiction is to go cold turkey.  I wish more Pirate fans were like you.  Then maybe the franchise would be forced into drastic measures, like say making an effort to field a decent team.

Andy,  Your feelings are cetainly shared by many fans. Jumping around a bit, The field manager's presence is a little on the quite side.  All reports say there is a fire that burns within him, I think a little smoke would be nice to see every now and then.

Ditto on the Bla Bla stuff.

I think you give a pretty accurate report on the up to the news releases on the FA activity.  Although signings have been slow, the only one is an infield backup uograde and adds confidence where neither Bixler nor cruz are ready to yet.

The top FA's are usually persued by few number of teams, so there are many teams who have not pursued the CC FA's. I sure wish just like you do that we could sign a few of those caliber players Heck I'd be happy if we would just sign one of those top players< i see nothing wrong with making a significant upgrade somewheres a year before you think you are ready to post season compete, more wins means more momentum.

I do think the PBC is showing signs of a new birth of style and direction.  I think they should be given credit for the Latin progress, better draft,  and although a tough pill the end results should be an overall upgrade to the system by the siummer trades.

I sure hope the team playes to a level you can''t stay away from the park.

Thank you for allowing your letter to be shared, maybe this asylum is the place for you to share a little Pirate fellowship, come on board.

I've said it once I'll say it again ... Bucs missed out on Burrell.

At some point in the future,  13 years if all goes well,  I will be retired. One of the first things I will be purchasing is Pirate's season tickets.  I will go to all 81 games..so help me and my health. It is something that I've thought about over the last few years and it is getting closer.

When I was all of 7 or so,  my father took my year youger brother and I on a bus ride from Homestead to Oakland, the 61c.  We went to Forbes Field. Nothing in the universe could have been more beautiful at the time to an 8 year old. My Dad saw that.  I know he did. My brother was very interested in Clendenon and I thought Roberto was magnificient.  I watched three double plays and heard little banter.  I saw a third string batter strike out and he actually had some applause because he hung in there fouling off pitch after pitch.  I watched a Dodger smack a line drive heading to center that was snatched out of no where by Mazeroski.  Again little banter. I saw Clemente throw a ball from right field to home,  I swear I heard it sizzle and they nailed a man at the plate by four feet or so.  Again,  little banter. I asked my Dad how come we applaud the guy for striking out  but we don't applaud Roberto or Mazeroski?  He said because they are the best and they are supposed to play that way. It was then I knew something that I could not comprehend for several years...Pittsburgh is a rough,  no nonsense town.

Just a comment on the free agent market, considering some posts from yesterday's thread.  The fact that the market is weakening doesn't help the Pirates all that much, because every team will take a bargain if it is a low risk/high reward bargain, until they run out of roster space.  The only real bargaining chip the Pirates have is opportunity - playing time, an enhanced role perhaps for a pitcher (closer vs. setup, setup vs. mopup, starter vs. reliever, ace starter vs. #5), a chance to play one's natural position, etc.  But if the money is remotely comparable, the player is not going to choose the Pirates unless a substantial opportunity exists. And that may not even be enough.  The irony is that the Pirates will have to outspend teams that have bigger resources, just to get the same player. Example: Derek Bell.

Rocco Baldelli, for example, grew up in Rhode Island as a Sox fan.  Say the Pirates offer him 2 years for $6M - $2M the first year, $4M the second, with a $1M buyout after year one, or an option based on production (something along those lines).  That guarantees a player nobody's even sure can play $3M, and a chance to be - if not a starter - than a #4 OF with a shot at 400 plate appearances.  Now say the perennially contending, always televised BoSox - his hometown team - offer him one year at $1M to be their 5th OF?

I think he goes to Boston, dreaming World Series, one redemptive season, all that crap.  Call me cynical, but I've seen a lot of guys sit four years at the end of Coach K's bench at Duke when they could be scoring 20 a game at, say, Duquesne.

Even among the bottom-feeders, Kansas City has shown they will spend, and Washington looks to be trying.  Jim Bowden in DC has never met a reclamation project he can pass up. Plus, he actually WILL pay for former Red Adam Dunn, even if he has 10 outfielders and 5 first basemen.  Bowden is stuck on stupid.

The Pirates are squeezed into a tough spot.  When it comes to money, they'll be outspent by both good and bad teams.  When it comes to winning or exposure, they have no card to play.  When it comes to the hometown/location factor, they don't have the draw that Arizona, the Florida teams (especially for Latino players), or the Texas and California teams have.  The players come from those areas, or have homes there, and - given the chance - will return there.  The best the Pirates could do in that department was a past his prime Sean Casey.

The Pirates have two things to bank on - opportunity (which may be rejected) and draft/development.  All you can really do as a fan is hope the Coonelly/Huntingdon administration doesn't screw up the meager hand they have.

Re Pat Burrell:

Burrell chose a World Series American League team in Florida, where he can DH and hide that Luzinski-model glove of his.  I believe Pat the Bat went to school at Miami, so he's back in Florida (he grew up in Arkansas and California).  He signed for 2 years/$16M in Tampa.  What would it have taken to make him a Pirate, if anything?  Probably $20-24M over the same 2 years - and that might not have done it.

If Duke84, Jimmy O and Carnegie Chip are the Cornelius Brothers, I'll be Sister Rose.

The Cubs just got stronger with Milton Bradley. But that's alright. They beat up on us last year, but now we got 'em right where we want 'em!

THE OFFICIALLY UNOFFICIAL PBC BLOGS AND MLB LINKS:

Bucs Dugout-Cubs sign Milton Bradley and Catching up with Bobby Bradley

http://www.bucsdugout.com/

whygavs--The Road to 17

http://whygavs.com/

MVN PBC-Top Fits for Andruw Jones

http://mvn.com/mlb/pirates/

Buc Trade Winds-The Market Comes to the Pirates

http://www.bucstradewinds.net/

Raise the Jolly Roger-News and Notes

http://raisethejollyroger.com/

The Burgh Blues-Bradley, Burrell off the Market

theburghblues.mlblogs.com

The Green Weenie--The Gunner Grill

www.oldbucs.blogspot.com

THe Bleacher Report-Unpredictable Bradley Will Fit in Well on the North Side

bleacherreport.com/.../103424-unpredictable-bradley-will-fit-in-well-on-the-north-side

In Clemente Weather-Burrell signs for 2 yrs./$16 million

inclementeweather.blogspot.com

PBC Homepage-Bucs' search for final pieces continues

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

Morning Links Part 3

How to Fix Baseball Free Agency

www.sportingnews.com/.../179946

Jay Bell and Scott Sanderson to Speak at Annual ORU Diamond Dinner

www.orugoldeneagles.com/ViewArticle.dbml

Morning All.

Just have a few minutes - going to be a busy morning at the ranch!

I have two issues with the letter: one is the "managerial fire" and the other is the "entertaining venue."

Robert, you nailed it right on the head: people don't go to baseball games to watch baseball games; they go to see stupid pierogi races, to hear music loud enough to have your ears bleed and to have a parrot walk over top of you.

Note that robert remembers where the applause was and wasn't. That he could HEAR the sizzle of the ball. when was the last time you heard anything at PNC but the sound of Shameless Commerce?

Fellow Inmates, the point to modern sports is to generate revenue, not to produce a pure product...

Anyway, it is a shame that the PBC has managed to lose Mr Cornelius, the Cornelius Brothers and possibly Cornelius, the lead Simian from the Planet of the Apes...

@ Duke: nice summarization of the FA dilemma (sic). I am still looking at the glass half-full here: as someone noted yesterday (late last night after I posted - apologies as I can't remember who), there were injury issues and incompetence issues with the starting pitching. Improvement in those two areas (anyone notice the dead horse I am beating?) could well result in a greater improvement in games won than any major FA expenditure.

It may be, sports fans, that in-between the pierogie races and the all you can eat Slop 'N Trough seating specials, we may actually have a better team to watch this year than last - if only the folks would just not waddle past me and Mrs Pagan  on their way to the Feed Bag Grill when the count is  3 - 2....

Have a good day kids!

Jose

Nice letter, and Mr Cornelius is certainly entitled to his opinion and the right to spend his money the way he wants to.

I liked Jason Bay, but I wouldn't have been any happier if they kept him.  ( I really don't believe he would have resigned here ).

I would not have renewed my partial season ticket if I would have to watch them send out JVB, Bullington, Herrera, or any of the other stiffs that they sent out to be the starting pitcher.

I am willing to be patient a little longer with the new management team.  They have to fix a whole bunch of problems caused by McClatchy & Littlefield.

Now please give me Rocco!!

"and that Baldelli might decide to stay in the American League and DH because of his health."

Gee, if Rocco thinks he should stay in the AL because of his health, don't you think it might influence our front office's thinking? It should.  And it should also be a concern to any rational fan who thinks we have missed again if we do not sign him...

As for the season ticket holder's letter.  I hope the seats this guy is giving up are in the front row; I'll take them...

@ Bucco Joe - "And it should also be a concern to any rational fan who thinks we have missed again if we do not sign him..."

I don't know if we have any rational fans in this place.

I'd still try to take a flyer on him, make him an offer he can't refuse.  But does the silence from PBC mean they aren't talking?

@ Bizrow - "I'd still try to take a flyer on him, make him an offer he can't refuse."

Rest assured that will not happen, nor do I think it should.  The point is the guy, Baldelli himself, may want to stay in the AL because of his health.  Should we try to convince him otherwise by throwing $'s his way?

Good Morning, all.  I'm not sure whether to comment on Andy Cornelius' letter or not - and yet, strangely, I feel compelled to add something.  

Obviously, he has a right to his opinion and the right to spend his money as he sees fit.  I doubt that I can clearly understand his thinking from just reading his letter but, as has been debated here many many times, I don't agree that the trades of the summer and the performance of the team after the break completely write the book on this management team at this point.  I'm apparently willing to give more time to both the trades and management.

Finally, when sitting in the stands watching a game, I am concentrating on what is in front of me and not rehashing management strategy in my head.  I get my money's worth.  While I cannot go so far as to say that I disagree with his decision, I do respectfully choose to follow a different path.

"The Pirates were closer to being at least a .500 team before the 2008 season then they will for the next several years."

Wrong spunky.  The 2009 Pirates will be closer to .500 than any team recent memory.  They may even finish slightly above it if they catch a few breaks.

While dopes like Andy J. Cornelius are well within their rights to cancel their tickets, here's hoping the front office keeps a list of these morons and when the team is winning before any of them expects because of the front offices efforts they're barred from purchasing any tickets until everyone else gets a crack.

I'll make this offer to the Pirates front office right now... get that overpaid, self-promoting, hot-dogging, half-with Jack Wilson off the Pirates roster before opening day and I'll buy Andy Cornelius's season tickets and another for each of them.

If Baldy did in fact himself say maybe he would..for health reasons, then our intereest in him stops right now.

@ Bucco Joe, Jersey Joe - I still say Roccos worth a shot, the quote was "might", doesn't mean you couldn't change his mind.  

We gotta start turning this ship around sometime, why not now?  IMO he's worth the risk.

Let's see -- losing team has disgruntled season ticket holder.  I am not surprised, but then I don't really think the Pirates management is either.  While it's a great conversation starter for this forum -- welcome all you new ones, hope you stick around and join the discussion on a regular basis -- I doubt that it's an opinion changer.  Whether we are rational or not there are still a few of us who cling to hope.  It's an old baseball tradition:

A straggling few got up to go.  The rest

Clung to the hope which springs eternal in every human breast.

They thought, if only Casey, could but get a whack at that!

Why, we'd put up even money now with Casey  at the bat.

And a few of us, I would imagine, do get the point that Dejan stated so well -- the season ticket holder is the lifeblood of the franchise.  I can't blame anyone for walking away because they're tired of baseball -- but in doing so they may well be casting their vote for a lower payroll and even more losing seasons.  

I would be as thrilled as anyone if the Bucs could (maybe would) spend in the free agent market more freely, even if it meant bringing in more investors who are willing to take the losses financially.  But as I've said repeatedly here, the game itself is broken financially (broken, not broke) and also (a separate issue) the whole franchise needs rebuilding not just the major league club.

Having said that, I believe that our current direction is the best we can expect under the constraints we operate under.  We are entitled to hope that the prospects will come through, that the pitching will come back up, and that we can be competitive -- even while realizing that it may not work out that way -- but with a break here and there it just might.

I would understand if Cornelius gave up his season tickets because of the current economic situation, and he certainly has the right to be ticked off and do whatever he wants, but I think it takes character to stand by something when the going gets tough.

I'm ticked off too.  But I just love the Pirates and I love going to games with my family.  Why would I begrudge my family of that experience which has been a family tradition going back to my grandparents just because management has been incompetent for 16+ years?

Good morning everyone...Um...no offense, but did a few of us wake up on the wrong side of the bed?  ;-)

I respect Mr. Cornelius' decision to not renew his ticket plan, but if I had the funds to purchase one, I would.  As it is, I'll be content to buy my tickets on a game by game basis, and go to as many as I can.  I don't go for the pierogie races...I love watching the game, and win or lose, I thoroughly enjoy sitting at PNC cheering the Bucs on.

RE:  Baldelli...If he is as good of an outfielder as I've read, I wouldn't mind seeing him here.  Of course maybe management is stalling based on his health and possible stated desire to stay in the AL where he can take on more DH duties.  Really, if you were our FO, would you want to take a chance on someone like that?

Hey I said I understood him do not see myself ever not being a fan every day waithing to win and expecting to win every day.  

Bizro,  Like I said if he said it says he does not feel he is 100% and that is a red flag for us.  If you can get him at minor league money he is worth a shot but no way major league money.

An idea - why can the Pirates season ticket holders get an "incentive laden" deal like free agents receive? For example, if the Pirates end up having another terrible season in the standings, a season ticket holder would receive a credit (refund) based onthe number of losses?  Hey, it may sound like a crazy promotional minor league stunt but it might hold on to some season ticket holders and maybe even entice a few new ones.  And yeah, we need to acquire more talent than just Ramon Vazquez this offseason. And quick, too.

Caution GM's and Asylum members,

Read closely what the Reds Jocketty stated about Baldelli.

He said, "He might decide to stay in the AL so he can DH."

Jocketty is merely speculating here.  

If his purpose is to plant the seed of doubt to scare off other potential suitors.  It seems to have resonated here.  You are all reacting to something that was said about Baldelli, not by  Baldelli.

This looks to be some old fashioned gamesmanship from a crafty, seasoned GM. Why can't we get guys like this?  

RobertGraham - nice post (and nice bio too). Yeah, I and probably many others here, have wonderful memories of the Bucco teams of yesteryear. I recall taking a tour of 3 Rivers Stadium with my grade school class in the mid 1970s. It, Willie Stargell, Al Oliver...those guys seemed larger than life.  Can or will we ever have a team like that again? today it looks doubtful.  But we can still hope. I'll still attend 15-20 games a year no matter how good/bad the team is. Baseball is simple an awesome sport.

And yes, we need to get Rocco on this team!  He'd do well and and I'm guessing would be a hit with the fans. We love a tough-luck story here,

RE - Rocco, IMO he's about the only FA worth going for, so if we pass on him, our lineup is same as end of last year.  Sometimes you gotta take chances to get better.  Otherwise opportunities are missed, there is a litany as we all know of prior mistakes.

@Cave - I think your comments on caution are right on the mark, and if the Reds are interested, why wouldn't the PBC be?

Do we really want to go into this season with no upgrades?

500 should not be goal--being competitive should be the goal.  I think that is why the trades were made last season.  Yes, the team was close to 500 but they did not look like they would climb over 500.  Looking at the barren system gave little chance to get the team competitive.  Sometimes you need to take a gamble to get better and trading for prospects is always a gamble but getting several lessens the gamble.  The daft choices and the prospects they got are looked as building blocks.  The hope is Cutch, Tabata, PA and several others will be playing with pirates in a year or two.  

I know we have seen rebuilding before but this has different feel to me.  This wasn't dumping players for nothing.

Just as many say a coach or manager needs 3 or 4 years to make a difference the same goes for management.  No GM could have taken what we had and made it competitive in year.  

Only go after a big FA when you have a solid base to add him to.  Rocco would be nice addition but someone  like Teixeira would have a been a bad buy at his cost.  

RG61

Welcome to asylum and post anytime. Strait jacket and meds will be provided at the front desk :)

I completely understand not renewing season tickets for this season. I see two possible scenarios for 2009, but neither leads to a winning season.

1) the pitching (with lots of good fielding) is decent, but there is absolutely no offense (see the 2007 season)

or

2) both the pitching (partially due bad fielding )and the offense are well below average

However, I hope that there is enough talent in the system so that maybe in 3 or 4 years the Pirates are able to get back to playing baseball in October for the first time since 1992.

I don't really know how much management cares about the fans. I actually wrote them a GOOD letter at the beginning of July last year and never got a response at all.

The  Letter. Guess I am in left field again!  :----) Why publish it? Nothing this asylum has not been screaming about since season ended in 2008. Ok, I admit the letter had less curse words, anger, frustration in its writing. But what is the new news here? Was it the pretty lettering?

To the writer of the letter AJC, might as well join the blog and the masses that support you. Be It Known, many on this blog have much more patience than you or I have as to new management procedures.. :--) In the end they will be right, patience will be the key. We cannot play under .500 for 20 yrs right? We cannot equal the Boston Red Sox record or Cubs of not going to the world series for 100 years right?

Cause if so, I am a dead man when it happens again.

Go Pirates

For those of you that want Baldelli, don't we want to first be sure that health is a complete non issue?

UncleDirtNap replied   "Wrong spunky.  The 2009 Pirates will be closer to .500 than any team recent memory.  They may even finish slightly above it if they catch a few breaks."

With opionions like that is one reason the Pirates will never be competive.  You trade Bay for Bryan Morris (class A) who already has had Tommy John surgery, Craig Hanson who has no control,  Andy LaRoche who makes the mendoza line look good and Brandon Moss.

Now the Pirates are looking for a power hitting right handed outfielder.

You keep "believeing" uncledirtnap how good the 2009 team will be, then go to Vegas and put your money on  the team you'll be rich, with the odds the bookies will give you.

@Cave...Thanks for the correction on who said what.  ;-)

@RG 61...I missed my cue as part of the Welcome Wagon...Welcome!  

@JimmyO...we're all entitled to our own opinions.  I don't think you can completely discount the 2009 season yet...they haven't even taken the field yet.    

Just wanted to interject a break in the action and give kudos for usage of the old Pirates PBC logo which the World Series Champion 1909 Pirates wore on their sleeves. Interestingly, use of the logo was discontinued after that year.....how nice that the PBC Blog has revived it 100 years later!

Good Morning, 48jj, JAL, Bizzy, LarryZ, Cave (the husband of the lovely Mrs. Bonifield and Nitro's master!), JJ, DMac, 21sthebest, JHadar, UncleDirtNap (with the inspirational post), Capn, BuccoJoe, Thundercrack, JosePagan, JL (alias Sister Rose) and ...

Nutting Hostage, where in the world are you on a morning like this? We hear your posts even though we don't see them. It's not too late to click your heels three times and return home, Dorothy.

@Carnegie Chip - "The best way to stop an unhealthy addiction is to go cold turkey."

Well, if you really want to kick it, maybe ... but the best, most loyal, fun-loving, Let's-Go-Bucs-Fans are right here in this asylum, still rootin-and-tootin (and Hopin') their Pirates on. I say the best way to stop an unhealthy addiction is to throw your lot in with us, grab a straight jacket, stay regular on your Nurse Cratchett-prescribed meds (she'll give you extra when Grabow's on the mound) and then check out when the Pirates start winning ... in the not-too distant future.

@Cave -"This looks to be some old fashioned gamesmanship from a crafty, seasoned GM. Why can't we get guys like this?"

Whatever happened to my eternal optimist Caveykins? Why are you coveting another club's GM? I figured you'd cut Neal and Frank a little more slack at this point. I think they have a pretty decent plan, but with what they inherited, shouldn't we give them at least through 2010 to execute it/see it come to fruition?

We get excited about maybe signing an injured reserve outfielder.

The Yankees sign real talent.

The system is broken and no one cares to fix it because everyone is getting rich.

I bleed Baseball but for the first time in my life I am struggling to love this sport.

@Jimmy O - "With opionions like that (Uncle Dirt Nap's) is one reason the Pirates will never be competive."

Well, Jimmy O, it would make about as much sense for me to say "SPELLING like that is one reason the Pirates will never be competitive!"

What's wrong with Uncle Dirt Nap's opinion, my Michigan bro? I think it's highly reasonable, as UDN said, "They may even finish slightly above it if they catch a few breaks."

Breaks, I figure, being our pitching comes around and we can average 3-4 runs a ballgame. The Dodgers only averaged around 3 runs a ballgame last year and made the playoffs.

Last I checked, we're still undefeated in 2009.

New post on 2 minor league signings.  Rosenthat is reporting Swisher - PBC would be a fit, also Yanks are dangling Nady out there.

@afail - "We get excited about maybe signing an injured reserve outfielder."

Yup, that is about what its come down to in here.

@21sthebest - "For those of you that want Baldelli, don't we want to first be sure that health is a complete non issue?"  Everyone could have some health issues pop up, here we know what it is and its treatable.  

Afail

Rocco is not injured, he has a medical problem but the latest on it is that it more treatable than was thought.  

If the system you are referring to is the baseball one then it can't be fixed until 2011 when the current contract is up.  We have seen 3 teams call for a salary cap and there may be more by 2011.  

Bay

"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's GM."

You are right.  I think I broke the Asylums' tenth commandment.

I just want them to increase the payroll to 75m.

I will still but the Direct TV MLB package again this year.

Every year the lovely Mrs Bonifield predicts the date that I will first mutter these words to her:

"I paid $200 to watch this!!!"

Anyone read the sporting news and think that one year contracts are the way to help the least spending clubs compete?   I think that is wrong on a couple of fronts.

1. The rich will offer more each year to the best at every posistion.

2. Had to support a TEAM when the members change every year.  I like having someone around that you know and can support long term.  Not one year players.

3. In conjunction with #2 I like my team ie: players that we saw grow from drafting, through the minors  and to the major league. I want them to be with me and our children for as long as can be.

4. I like having players on other teams that I don't like even if they are good.  It's the rivary thing.  It makes it more enjoyable to watch and more intense.  I don't want to have to root for them for a one year stint on my team.  

IMO anyway.

Obviously, I got excited and hit the wrong button!

Le'ts assume our management has things in place to make us successful, too, at least through 2010. They've inherited enough of a load of poo-poopey-doop to fill and establish outhouses on every corner of Pittsburgh.

But, man, afail, you really do have a lot to be depressed about. We'll help shoulder your burdens, Bro!

Jimmy O

The posters here are fans so our thinking is not decision making.  There is no lockstep here--we have posts from many different positions.  To each his own.

As for the players--Tommy John proved that Tommy John surgery is not the end of a career, Hanson has been discussed before and he may never cure is control, or he may cure it-he had some good outings.  Plenty of power pitchers who did not get good control until after his age.  Andy L. had a bad season but his past says he a much better hitter than he showed so lets see what he does this season before dismissing him.  Moss is no Bay but his leg may have affected his hitting and he showed some potential.  

@Biz - "Everyone could have some health issues pop up, here we know what it is and its treatable.  "

Well of course anyone could have a health issue.  But with Baldelli, he already has one and from what I've read, the prognosis is better but not certain.  Seems like too high of a risk for the dollars involved.

@Cave - "I just want them to increase the payroll to 75m."

Alright, Buddy ... that's reasonable. I wonder if all of us in here just sent the $200 we were planning on sending to MLB for their package, to Bob Nutting, if that would amount to $25 million ...

But, Cave, I'm afraid with the LACK of free agent talent out there, what would $25 million give us at this point ... Burrell signs for $8 million a year, and we get Milton Bradley for $10 million a year. That about eats it up, and MAYBE we break 500 with a couple of relative old-timers we owe a bunch of money to.

And, forgive me, I'm sure you've shared your plan before and I remember it sounding good ... probably better than signing the likes of Burrell and Bradley. I really hate to talk investment at this point (16 losing seasons in a row), but I think we have to.

Maybe next year there will be better Free Agents to choose from, and we'll be in a better position to add.

@Mad...I don't like the idea of 1-year contracts and I agree with you on pretty much all points.

During the course of a season, I sort of feel like I know the players to a very small extent and don't like the idea of that dynamic changing each year.

@ Bizrow <<We gotta start turning this ship around sometime, why not now?  IMO he's worth the risk.>>

That may be too much risk if even he isn't confident that he can cut it in the NL.

Bay

This may sound blasphemous, but to me it is not so much who they spend the money on as it is,  THAT they spend the money.  

Showing a committment to spend is very important.   It is important to existing fans, new fans, the players, their minor leaguers, free agents who may be considering Pittsburgh, local businesses, potential advertisers, FSN, etc.

Management talks about changing the culture of losing.  I am talking about changing the culture of not spending.

Per the letter from AJC.

I see it as his right to do what he thinks best and for whatever reasons he stats for it.

He still will get his fix of baseball by attending a few games.  

I think the issue goes deeper than just the Pirates.  It the whole system and outragous salaries these guys are getting.  Yes the owners make a profit as well.

Now we have the greedy owners and the greedy players both against the fans that pay their wages and make them rich.  I think this is starting to turn some people off.  

Look baseball is a game that we have all loved since childhood, We played watched and grew with it. It's the game more than the people in it that we like.  Sure our favorite players make it much more enjoyable to watch and provided home team pride. But players of any skill level helps bring that part of it.  We all have memeories of players that we remember from days gone by.  They may not have been the greatest or most talented that were on our teams. Nor made the Hall of Frame.  The only thing that mattered was that they were ours for more than one to 3 years if we so chose.

What we have lost in todays game is the game itself.

Now it's all about who gets paid what, who wants to play where, What owners are paying more for a couple of players than the national debt.  No one seems to care about the fans.  They distract us with birds, food items running around the stands and field, all you can eat sections, everything but the game itself.

For some, that could be the reason to back off the full time season tickets. It's not about baseball anymore.

JAL -- << we have posts from many different positions >>

Sometimes I get excited and take several positions on the same subject all at once.  It's part of being a fan.  If we were all creatures of pure logic and winning was the most important thing in life, none or at least very very very few of us would be picking the Pirates -- but we root with our hearts, and sometimes the underdogs win.

@DMac wrote re: Morning links: One fan's message

on Jan 6, 2009 10:53 AM

@Mad...I don't like the idea of 1-year contracts and I agree with you on pretty much all points.

_____

Thanks DMac I guess I am not alone.

@Cave Bonifield wrote re: Morning links: One fan's message

on Jan 6, 2009 10:59 AM

Bay

This may sound blasphemous, but to me it is not so much who they spend the money on as it is,  THAT they spend the money.  

++++++++++

Okay so if we pay everyone on the roster right now more money to increase the payroll that would make you happy and us a winner?

MAD

I agree that player movement has contributed to the fans not identifying with their players as much.  

MLB has created a mercenary system to some extent.  It may add to the game on one level, but it makes it harder for younger fans to become attached to a team through worship of a favorite player who sticks around for awhile.

Turk, I blame us the fans as much as I blame the owners, players, agents, union, etc.  We go to the games, we watch the games, we buy the Nike's and Blackberry's that they advertise during the games.  IMO, this feeds it all.  They all get their money from us.  We're material hogs.

JH

Indeed we do root with our hearts

@Cave Bonifield wrote re: Morning links: One fan's message

on Jan 6, 2009 11:07 AM

MAD

I agree that player movement has contributed to the fans not identifying with their players as much.  

++++++++

Yep I saw it with my own boys, they turned off when we could not keep anyone.  I know others that folowed the player and not a team.  This does not help attendance either when they want to go see a player and not a team.

As far as the letter is concerned, he has a right to spend his money as he chooses.....However, I think that he is selling out at the bottom and is perhaps giving up great seats just before the turn-around…….Many people that consistently lose money in the stock market have a tendency to buy high and sell out low too.

It’s kind of strange, but some have wondered where Hostage has been of late, and I sense a lot of Hostage’s view here (less the Nutting bashing). However, Hostage once said that he hasn’t attended games lately, he likes watching the Curve live. Anyway, I guess I just sense a similarity in their writing styles.

Re - sign Baldelli - I'm kinda thinking with the thread "spend some money" on this.  Yes, risky, yes, big possible upside, but it sends the message from NH that "I'm angry as ^%&^%^ about this mess I'm in and I'm not going to take it anymore."

The PBC can sit and stare at the goodies, and cash the revenue checks and all that, we can talk about building from the draft, but that is a gamble too.  How many #1 pitchers have we signed and how many have broken down before they got to the big show?  The PBC IMO needs to start aggressively taking chances, Baldelli, for example is one that should be tried.

Not to repeat myself, but do we want this roster starting the season?

There may not be many options, but there are a few...

IMO  ; }

Re - sign Baldelli

IMO........we have to be careful. He has many question marks concerning his health. If he is healthy, he can be a valuable mid/long term addition. On the other hand, if he can only play part time in the NL, then his contract value will have to be similar to that of a part time player.

This team doesn’t have deep enough pockets to be making Morris, Bell, and Mears type of mistakes again and again. At this point, my only interest is as signing him as a part time player to a contract that provides incentives that increases pay for increased play.

As i come in from a 9 degree Michigan morning, I yearn for baseball and summer. Despite the ecnomy and the Pirates bleak outlook, I will renew my 8 game package because I love the game that much. I respect the gentleman's reasons not to renew his tickets, but my heart is at the ballpark.

Ants marching................

New thread--Pirates sign Machado, Lopez

"Not to repeat myself, but do we want this roster starting the season?"

Yes this is the roster we want to start the season though minus Jack Wilson would be better.

Just as it was unreasonable last season for people to expect Snell and Gorzelanny to repeat their 2007 seasons it's perfectly reasonable to expect improvement from one or both over last year and an improved, if not great, rotation with many options to go to should one or both fail.

Bradon Moss need to improve and at age 26 that's what one should expect.  Andy LaRoche needs to improve more, same expectations are reasonable at his age and with his background.  McClouth should be at least as good as last year and Adam LaRoche just needs to avoid the prolonged slump at the start of the season and the team will be playing better come this July than they have in many years and it'll be easy to find room for call ups of McCutchen and a few other players who are going to push for a spot in the majors beginning this year.

Unlike past teams where unreasonable hopes were pinned on older players repeating fluke seasons and expectations that below average players earning to much could carry no talents, this s a young team that WILL improve just by getting more playing time.

UncleDirtNap

Those are a lot of "ifs", but I agree that none of the "ifs" are derived from unreasonable expectations. Showing up next season with the same roster and expecting different results is not the definition if insanity in this case. It would be insane to have the same group of 30+ year olds and expect improved results. However, starting the season with the same roster of youngsters that still have their best years in the future, and expecting better results is not insane, it is what should naturally occur with increased experience and better coaching. We may surprise a lot of experts this year.

Sorry Uncle Dirtnap, - I've heard that song before, we don't have the talent IMO with this current roster to be competetive.

No offense intended of course

Good day all.

When I look back on 2008 - and being in attendance at the games -- what stays in my mind are the comebacks, the extra innings, beating the Cubs, the fire in Doug, the power in Nate, the grit in Doumit, the ace in Paul, beating the Cubs.

This man is entitled to his choice. Mine is to still go, to still watch. These guys are able to compete.

I applaud Capn on her statements of giving the trades and management more time. I feel the same way she does about being at the games. I drive 300 miles round trip, spend money on the turnpike, put at times $100 gas in my SUV (when prices were high) and arrived home at 2 a.m. to see a Pirates game several times a month all season and it was worth every penny, to me.

I'll just have to go out and recruit another fan to take this guy's place, that's all. It can be done.

We are getting better. Have hope. Plenty of Hope.

Srsly.