Morning links: Arbitration time

THE OFFICIALLY UNOFFICIAL PBC BLOGS AND MLB LINKS:

- Bucs Dugout: PG: Ollie, Duke Snell Have Inside Track On Rotation Jobs:

http://www.bucsdugout.com/

- WHYAVS: Frank Coonelly And The Cap:

http://whygavs.com/

- MVN PBC.: PIRATE REVOLUTION: It’s JW @ SS For Now; PITTSBURGH LUMBER CO.: PBC Prospect #25 – Wesley Freeman; SANDLOT SWASHBUCKLERS: Maldonado Homers In Venezuelan Playoffs:

http://mvn.com/mlb/pirates/

- Raise the Jolly Roger: Housekeeping:

www.raisethejollyroger.com

- The Burgh Blues: Hot Stove Still Burning In January:

theburghblues.mlblogs.com

- The Green Weenie: Farm Fresh – The Hot Corner:

www.oldbucs.blogspot.com

- The Bleacher Report: Gregg Zaun Signing With The BoSox Would Be Great…For Him:

bleacherreport.com/.../87380-mlb-hot-stove-updates

PBC NEWS & NOTES (TODAY’S TOP PBC STORIES):

- PBC Homepage: Watch: MLB.Com - PBC Extra Inning Heroics:

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/index.jsp

Additional Blog Links:

- Bucs Trade Winds: Salary Cap and More:

http://www.bucstradewinds.net/

- NYY Shopping Xavier Nady:

nybaseballdigest.com

Trade Zach Duke for Nady.

1 more Link before I head off for the night/morning.

PBC Link: Bucs' Search For Final Pieces Continue: R Hand Hitting OF and Starting Pitcher:

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

<<The Miracle Field>>

Sounds like a great place to cheer on some wonderful kids at a future Gathering this summer...What do you think?

And Speaking of Gathering...

To those of you just returning to the Asylum from vacation or other...

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

January is a busy month with the Pirate Fest, Caravan, NFL Playoffs and our own personal schedules...

I am again asking for your input here to determine what YOU would like to do...

The best date as discussed at G3A/B would be

Saturday 17 or Sunday 18 January.

As I recall (please correct me if I am wrong) those @ G3B (Pizza) thought that the 18th was better.

It has also been suggested that we do something informal the following weekend @ Pirate Fest or the following weekend @ Caravan Somerset....instead

As usual I will leave it up to the majority of the inmate responses and go from there.

You can also EM me @ billabraham2004@yahoo.com

To the new Inmates (members) the Gatherings are informal social Gatherings that are held in the local Pittsburgh area

at a coffee shop or Pizza Shop etc. to get together to discuss in person our PBC and any other topic that happens to surface during a few hours together. Everyone is welcome and we enjoy meeting newcomers and their friends, spouses, and children. Please feel free to RSVP when you see the announcement. Also let us/me know if you have any suggestions about dates times and locations...

Thanks everyone.

Morning Links part whatever :)

MLB Network shows early potential

www.chicagotribune.com/.../chi-05-mlb-networkjan05,0,3916104.story

Player Salaries in Baseball

www.studyofsports.com

Sabathia, Uptons prominent on MLB watch list in 2009

sports.espn.go.com/.../story

Good Morning All,

 I think everybody wants Maholm and McClouth signed long term (3-5 years).  My questing is: What do you think it would take to get them both signed?

Would you not think that both Nate and Paul gets the ball would say they have little chance at injury and are willing to take a chance to upgrade the pay level by another outstanding year.  If Im Nate i give it a shot.  If Im Paul with the Ball  then I would want some extra in the pocket asap since Im a pitcher.

I defer the money issue to the blog experts.  I do think it better than worse to sign each one, they both look like they are going to get better.

But, if the pirates start signing that big right haned bat and a bonified starter that will cost more than they have been spending and it will raisse the bar for our two bartenders.

Good morning all, and a late happy New Year.  Has anyone watched the Outside the lines feature on the Bucs site on espn.com?  Interesting perspective.  Most people (not being DK) have tired to make it sound like we jumped all over these two guys, but the reality seems to be that they were offered a contract as they were about to go back to India and join the army (one of their last scheduled days here).  Definitely interesting.  

The report also add a perspective on MLB salaries in you think about it - there are 800 million people in India living on less than $2 a day.  So that's 800 million people on $2 billion, and the Yankes just spent over 1/5 of that on 3 players.

Slow morning -- nice avatar Coach . . . does it fit snugly.

Let's say Adam picks up a little raise -- his overall offense is better than Jack's and he's on the field consistently while Jack is injured.  Will he be

(a) -- Evaluated for the long term after April/May

(b) -- Gone at the trade deadline no matter what

(c) -- Gone at the trade deadline if there are good prospects out there

(d) -- Traded ASAP

(e) -- Kept

(f) -- Well, what do you think

????

Answering PapaCoach's question with a question:  Would freeing up LaRoche's and\or Wilson's contract make it possible to sign Maholm and McLouth to longer term deals, or are they (M&M) just counting on being better and worth more this season no matter what is offered with the hope of an even bigger deal next year?  

Sorry -- egsCoach's question.  Mistaken identity is possible in an asylum.

Good morning...

@egs--<<Avatar>> I agree with JH!

@diehard-- Happy New Year to you and BC and the wee ones!

One more -- predict the outrage level here and among fans in general if the hot stove league heats up and other clubs start snapping FA's at bargain rates (due to the economy)

@JH--<<Outrage level>>

IMO there would not be enough REAL meds let alone virtual meds, if the FA's are had at fair and reasonable salaries and signing bonuses.

Happy New Year to all.

Any word on the level of "real" interest in acquiring Rocco Baldelli or what the status is?

JH

I also think a competitive team would help the possibility of signing players to long-term deals.  Despite the money I feel most players enjoy winning to losing.  

JHADAR<<ansewering>>  If money is that tight then we have been misled and are in very big trouble.

Lets hope not.

Larry

Nothing new on Rocco--Red Sox, Reds, Rays, and pirates have been reported to be interested in him but nothing concrete reported.

With that I am out for couple of hours

Good Morning, All!

BK--Either Sunday the 18th or Sunday the 25th (PirateFest) would work for me. Saturdays are always out for me.  Depending on whether he can get his shift covered or switched at work, The Man may also attend.  He always works Sundays, so it's all whether someone can switch with him. The sooner we lock a date, the better.  

Also, just a note that yesterday was 40 days til pitchers and catchers report.  I said it's like the Lent of baseball.

@ BK "IMO there would not be enough REAL meds let alone virtual meds, if the FA's are had at fair and reasonable salaries and signing bonuses."

Oh, so thats why Nurse Cratchett is worried about this years med bills??

If the PBC waits till there is nothing left in the FA market, we in the asylum will be beside ourselves.

@JHadar - I would think part of the issue with Adam is what he wins in arbitration and how much he wants for a longer term deal, IMO there is no one currently in the system that we could count on to replace him, that minor league FA not withstanding, have read good and bad about him.

Earlier Comments -

Given the Free Agent Market - even if the costs drop to "Reasonable Levels" - who would you want to add?  Other than Baldelli there are very few who are young enough to warrant a long term contract and even fewer who are worth the money.  Unless you want to retread Benson, Fogg, Kip Wells, etc.

I am committed to long term development so that we can eventually win for an extended period - not a one year gasp (Freak Show), and then a fade to oblivion. So, even if the market is reasonable - I see no one worth signing - Caeveat - there may be some exceptions to that comment, but I only gave the list a cursory read through.

Like everyone else, I'd like to sign a quality free agent or more this offseason.  But if we do nothing more, isn't that an improvement over anything Littlefield ever did?

21s - Who is the quality free agent?  I don't see that many on the list.  I think if we can Doug back and somehow pull Baldelli that would be good.  The remainder of what is available seems to be just more of what we signed in the past - unless we really drop big money on an old NAME player.  I don't see that being smart.

I agree Menkrick.  I'm not saying to just sign anyone.  All I said was that I want to sign quality.  If it's not there, there's no need to do what Littlefield did repeatedly.

Other than Garland and Lowe, I think Abreu, Burrell, and Oliver Perez are quality.

I don't care about Mientky.  And as to Baldelli, I would only sign him if his health is a 100% non issue.

Menkrick -- I tend to agree.  When you read that the FA market is down, you get all excited -- but when you read the list of names available you see that the few who are out there that could actually be impact players for this club are out of our price range even at bargain rates (unless mgmt wants to make a "statement" type signing of a single player -- probably a bad move aimed at .500 and not the long term goal) or else guys who are on the downward side of the productivity curve, more name value than field value.

21 -- True about better than Littlefield -- but like bragging that you finished in the top 99% of your class.

JJ -- You're probably right about availability of funds.  I think the real issue with Nate and Paul and long term contracts is that management is arguing that they should get a deep discount because one good year doesn't necessarily guarantee five good years, and the players are looking at it as they're going to have a good year again this year and with a couple good ones in the books, they will be worth more in the long run.  What Adam does shouldn't affect negotiations -- but if that much salary money were freed up, might it lead to a more generous offer tp Nate and Paul, or would it go into that secret stash that they have for acquiring Pujols when he becomes a free agent? ;-}

RE - Free Agents - yes, there are only a few that would meet what the PBC needs, all the more reason to be aggressive and go after them.  Its another way to build the system, and the old Littlefield ways didn't get us anything.  In our position, we have to shake every tree to upgrade, don't you think?

@JAL--<4000 Posts>

I am sorry that I did not recognize this milestone earlier today.

WAHOO!!!!! YIPEEEE!!!!!CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bizrow -- who do you see out there in the FA market that would meet our needs, has a long-term upside, and is affordable?  It's a genuine question, I don't follow other clubs well enough to make more than a superficial evaluation.  When someone is brought up seriously, it seems like when I go to check out his numbers I usually find myself saying we already have a guy like that.  (Or with pitchers, we have a guy who should be like that)

A little late here, but Good Morning everyone!

I hope everyone is having a decent Monday.

(for me, good and Monday don't belong in the same sentence. *grin*)

@Menkrick--I am committed to long term development so that we can eventually win for an extended period - not a one year gasp (Freak Show), and then a fade to oblivion. So, even if the market is reasonable - I see no one worth signing - Caeveat - there may be some exceptions to that comment, but I only gave the list a cursory read through.

Excellent post.

The only thing I would add to it is that the Pirates at this point need to finish building their bench, I am not concerned about a veteran pitcher to help out, he would only block  someone younger that needs the work.

If they were to get a Baldelli, he would probably be a platoon player anyway and I am firmly convinced JR is not a platoon type manager.

JHadar, Gomez and Baldelli are under 30, 28 and 27 respectively, I think. I've heard Hairston bandied about but he's 33 or so.

The Reds and others are eyeing Rocco, I would just love for NH to jump in and get him.  Its not like we'd be saddled with a Jack Morris and its only money  ;  }

You get what you pay for, oops forgot Jack Morris, nevermind...

ESPN's 2009 Predictions.  Check out the top rookie:

sports.espn.go.com/.../story

Its official:  Pitt #1

sports.espn.go.com/.../rankings

Bizrow -- Baldelli is interesting because of the high upside, not sure which Gomez you mean (missed that speculation/rumor), and agree on Harriston.  

@ bucsfancents80 <<top rookie>>

My guess is that many if not most already had that player in mind before the opened your link. Unfortunately, we will have that salt rubbed in our wounds for years to come. He has become the face of what was wrong with the prior management team.

@bucsfancents80 - top rookie

It just makes me sad everytime I see that.  Sort of like watching Old Yeller.  Nothing by sadness from that.

And a little (huge amount actually) of anger at Littlefield for crippling my team so badly.

bucsfancents80

What a conference--Pitt #1, UConn # 5, Syracuse # 9, GTown #10, ND #13, Marq #15, Vill. #17, Louisv. # 21, WVU #22--

Hilarious first line from the ESPN article about Pitt getting ranked #1:

"Pittsburgh has the Steelers pursuing a Super Bowl XLIII berth, one of the brightest young stars in the NHL in Sidney Crosby, and, well, we'll just skip the Pirates."

Classic stuff. Great job to the Pitt Panthers though, they look like a heck of a team this year. This may finally be the year we get past the sweet 16.

JAL

Every one of those teams should go to the tournament. Can the Big East send ten (10) teams this year?

80cents,

Anytime I read anything about how great Matt Wieters is going to be, I curl up into the fetal position and cry myself to sleep. Thanks a lot, now my boss will find me huddled under my desk my first day back after vacation!

In a universe where pretty much nothing LittleYield did made sense, passing on Wieters will go down as the worst. It's a crying shame, because had we drafted Wieters, we'd probably be the team in the league with the best prospects. A 2011 team built around Alvarez, Wieters, McCutchen, Tabata and McLouth would have been quite a sight. Throw in a shrewd acquisition of Dunn this offseason to play 1B and you're talking about an insanely good team.

The sad part is, unless Moskos turns out to be the second coming of Nolan Ryan, passing on Wieters will be an open wound for the next 5 years.

@JH - maybe its Gomes, an outfielder, from TBay.

Rocco could quite possibly be the best of em all, take a chance PBC.

Next years FA class looks real weak, so we either draft a "top rookie", sorry for the salt again, make trades which means we give up value for value and stay even, pray DL gets a GM job somewhere and take him to the cleaners, or just sit and pray.  Next year, the chances are good that we'll have to replace 3 of our 4 starting infielders.

I don't know what Rocco would cost, but its the best option the PBC has right now.  

IMO

"passing on Wieters will be an open wound for the next 5 years."

I still have an open wound from the Steelers passing on Dan Marino and that has been 25 years.

Good day inmates!

I don't think Adam should get a raise. You don't get a raise for showing up at first base. You get a raise for doing better than you used to! Has Adam done better than he used to? No. Give him a raise when that happens. Heck, write it into his contract: If he hits above .290 in April and May, he can have more money June 1. Why shouldn't he be held.... wait for it .....ACCOUNTABLE like the rest?

Srsly.

Welcome back PoH, it is good to see you back safe and sound.

On the gathering dates: Jan. 18 is the first day of Pirate Caravan at Seven Springs.

@21sthebest: I'm sorry, some wounds just don't heal, do they?

"I don't think Adam should get a raise. You don't get a raise for showing up at first base. You get a raise for doing better than you used to!  "

Unfortunately POH, that's not how the arbitration process works.  Another year of service is enough to get a raise, performance aside.

POH  Welcome back

UK

They can send 10 if they don't destroy each other too much.  Long way to go in the season.

BK

Thanks for the congrats

ALL--<Gathering Location/Information>

etownbarandgrill.com/.../Welcome.html

I just spoke to one of the owners, he is joning the Asylum. They are sponsors and season ticket holders of our beloved PBC so I would like to give them our business for our next Gathering.

A special shout out to the Employee of the PBC for bringing this location to my attention. Thank you very much. We want to support those that support our TEAM.

No one on the list of FA's intrig me enough to say we should signe any of them.  They are all old, getting old, injury prone or coming back from injury or bad to average years.  Not what we need on this team.  Plus everyone one of them wil be overpaid to boot.

I would take a flyer on Rocco if we could.  Price needs to be right for a part time player though.  And bring back doug as well.

21s

You have it right--raises are almost automatic.  It will interesting to see what the Pirates offer and what Adam asks for.  Of course it is still possible for some of the players to accept a contact before arbitration starts.  I wonder if a team and player ever both submitted the same number for arbitration?

"Of course it is still possible for some of the players to accept a contact before arbitration starts."

JAL, cases don't go to arbitration very often and the process is designed that way.  The last Pirate to go to arbitration, if my memory is correct, was Jack Wilson in 2004.

@21sthebest: <<Unfortunately POH, that's not how the arbitration process works.  Another year of service is enough to get a raise, performance aside.>>

Well crap. That ain't right.

Bizrow -- looked at Gomes

MLB

www.baseball-reference.com/.../gomesjo01.shtml

Minors

minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi

Status

mlb.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

Low average power hitter who had a bad-to-horrible season last year.  What's the story, was he injured?  Otherwise he'd have to be a non-roster invitee or available at a very low cost.  Free Agent, non-tendered at 1.2M +  arb eligible.

PoH << That ain't right. >>

While I was out of town this weekend an old friend of mine pointed out that the world is bipolar.  It is what it is.

I agree with PoH...whatever happened to earning on merit?  I get realy miffed when I hear people moan about not getting a raise/getting a crappy raise when they don't DO anything.  I'm like look don't expect a raise when you sit around doing nothing, you can't be trained on anything new because you can't even do what you are trained to do anyway or that once you ARE trained, you still can't do it right 3 years later.  And I am sorry that your previous supervisor DID give you raises for doing nothing, but that's not going to happen here.  

Hypothetically speaking, of course.

Angry Gobbler,

You are the second person today to refer to Rocco Baldelli as a part time player.  Leadoff did the same.  

If we brought Rocco in here, it would be as the full time center fielder.  Nate would move to left and Nyger would be our 4th outfielder.  

Until he got his mysterious illness, he covered A LOT of ground in center and had an excellent arm.  Moving our Gold Glover to left would get a lot of folks off Nate's back and still give us excellent coverage in PNC's center-field-sized left.

The Pirates have to take some chances that they pick up a diamond-in-the-rough like the White Sox did last year with Carlos Quentin.  Otherwise, it's just "wait for successive drafts," a morose situation while we wait for high draft picks to mature and learn Major league skills.  NO ONE comes straight from the draft to the Majors!

Trading our young budding major leaguers like Nate, Doumit, or Malholm for so-called prospects (which may or may not pan out!) would just delay winning even further——or prohibit it all together.  Eventually the Bucs have to keep SOMEBODY as building blocks!

If we can get Baldelli 2 years for $5 million or 2 years for $6 million, even 2 years for $7 million, that's money well invested.  Rocco would probably take/want that shorter term to cash in on big money if he proves his wellness.

It's a calculated risk for the Bucs to sign him, but we would NEVER be able to afford him if he was proven to be restored to health.

I'm hoping McCutch comes up June 1——that he has advanced and is tearing up AAA pitching——and Baldelli moves to right if what's-his-name's knee is slow to heal or he's not hitting.  If he is hitting  .  .  .  .  wow, what a problem to have!!  FOUR major league hitting AND fielding outfielders.

Baldelli comes as a starter!

Howdy, friends and neighbors.  It's been a busy workday, but I'll take a second out to mention that it's:

40 DAYS UNTIL PITCHERS AND CATCHERS!!!*

*Pitchers and catchers report on February 14th, 2009.  On February 13th, this countdown will say that it is only one day until pitchers and catchers.  

The Right Honorable Mister Kovacevic follows a different convention.  By his convention, on February 13th, there will be zero more days left until pitchers and catchers report.

ok, Pat Burrell to sign with the rays for 16 mil over 2 years.  You mean to tell me that the pirates couldnt afford him for their right handed batter with power needs? they're going to pay Ad. larouche that much and he doesnt put up his numbers.  granted, Burrell isnt the best fielder in the world...but his power numbers would certainly help out.....UGH

JHadar, thanks for the link on Gomes, am not sure what happened last year, maybe fell out of favor?  But regardless, based on age, he's worth a shot.

Devil Rays signed Burrell for two yrs 8MM per year.  They saw something they wanted and went out and got him.  What a novel concept....

@POH, Pirata13.  Thats why baseball is fubared.  Yanks spend 423 Million in a few days on 3 players, PBC won't spend that much in 8 years.  The most a team can cut the salary of a player is 20% in a year.

I don't think this is going to be a happy place if we sign no one or someone whos best days are well past.  

I waffle, I know, but am now thinking Blow them Up in 09

All,

In response to the earlier discussion of players still out there in FA (which, there are quite a few...it was a very quiet December for the most part), here's a couple guys I'd like to see the Pirates pursue if the price is right:

Rocco Baldelli - This one is a no-brainer to me. I'd give the guy whatever he wants to get him in the black and gold, within reason of course. This is a guy who could potentially be a core player added at a marginal cost. If management was willing to take on $10 million for Morris, I don't see anything wrong with that kind of money spread across a couple years for Baldelli.

Adam Dunn - The market could wreak havoc on Dunn's value. He always seems to be the guy at the dance without a date. By that, I mean he has done nothing but put up solid HR/RBI/R totals...yet trade interest in him was always minimal (or the Reds asking price was way too high). He made $13 million last year, but that was the option year on a 3 year, $31 million deal he signed back in 2006. So, it's more like a bit over $10 million/year. In a crazy year, I could definitely see him getting $15+ million/year. However, if his pricetag comes down to the $10-$13 million/year range, I think he's certainly worth a look on a 3 or 4 year deal. While I realize that it would just be wasting money this year, I look at the upcoming free agent classes and don't see anyone in Dunn's league power-wise. Dunn just turned 29, so he's just entering his prime power years (28-34). He's been around so long, it's hard to believe he's actually 3 days YOUNGER than Adam LaRoche.

Think of it this way: You're going to spend $6-$8 million on LaRoche...isn't Dunn a better investment for a few million extra? This also allows us the flexibility to deal LaRoche if we so choose.

Signing Dunn would set up a nice "core of the order" of McLouth-McCutchen-Dunn-Alvarez-Doumit for the 2010/2011 seasons. Not too shabby at all.

Pat Burrell - Not as high on my list as Dunn, since we have a much greater need at 1B, but if the price is right...take a look.

Ben Sheets - I still have yet to hear any indication of what Sheets is looking for dollar wise, so this one is up in the air. Coming off injuries, he's a risk, but if he pans out the Pirates would finally have that true top of the rotation guy to solidify the rotation. He is probably looking for a 1 or 2 year deal to prove his health, so he might not be the ideal fit, but if 3 years at a discount is possible...give it a look.

OK, I'll repeat some thoughts from a previous post.

MLB players are represented by both a union and agents.  If the union were really a union we would have a basic contract with performance bonuses and it would be constant from club to club; there would probably be a seniority component, but all in all it might not be a bad system because there would be no financial incentive for changing teams -- it would only benefit a player to move if he didn't like the manager or if there was something like Doug is looking for, an offer to play every day.

If only agents represented players, there would be no union contract -- everyone would be for sale to the highest bidder.  It would be up to management to limit the size of teams.  There would be no "arbitration years", rule 5 drafts, and what not.  Promisiing youngsters could be signed to long-term contracts to keep the bidding wars down.

The present system takes the worst of both worlds and the fans pay for it with outrageous ticket prices, $5 Cokes and $9 beer -- and cable tv fees, $20 caps, and so forth.

How'd we get into this mess?  Union is smart and greedy.  Owners stupid and greedy.  Fans love the game so much we become willing victims.

STLRFANRC,

Wow, funny that you posted that while I was writing away on my last post. Pat Burrell at $8 million/year is a STEAL. That's exactly the kind of deal I was speculating would be perfect for this team. You're absolutely right...we're going to end up paying LaRoche almost as much as Burrell. As I said, Burrell wasn't the ideal fit, but him getting $8 million/year makes me believe Adam Dunn very well may fall into the $10-$13 million/year range.

PoH, Pirata13, JHadar, et al.: Re: AdLa gets a raise for breathing.

The unfortunate truth is that baseball salaries are not merit based.  If they were, Nate McLouth (.276 / .356 / .497 / 26 HR / 94 RBI / 23 SB) would be getting paid the same or more than Adam LaRoche (.270 / .341 / .500 / 25 HR / 85 RBI / 1 SB).  However, until the system gets overhauled, arbitration is going to provide these kinds of raises.  And with the superstrong players' union, it ain't happenin'.

P-13 You Go Girl!

<<hypothetically speaking of couse>>

Mua-ha-ha-haaaaaaaaa!

I'm all for taking a chance on Baldelli, but if signed, I would play him in left and leave Nat in center. Remember that left field at PNC is pretty big and why mess with two position changes when one gets the job done.

Hello, all.  I've been busy that last 2 weeks and ventured in here only rarely.  I figured everyone would be back today and yet it is fairly quiet.  Except for the best ones, that is.

I'm back and ready for something to happen.  Baldelli sounds interesting.  Dunn - no - I foresee another Burnitz there.  And Burrell cost way too much money - that's out of whack for the current Pirates.  Big $$ FA's are a few years too early at best.  We need some Big $$ Pirates for them to join first.

thank you, i couldnt agree more with your thoughts on Dunn, although another lefty bat, he's hit 40 homeruns over the last 4-5 years, what would he do in PNC?

Afternoon Link

Nate McLouth: Diamond In The Rough

bleacherreport.com/.../102989-nate-mclouth-diamond-in-the-rough

here's one......manny!! you mean to tell me that if the PBC signed manny, they wouldnt make their money back on that investment.  he would put butts in the seats with ease.  he doesnt care about winning, he's proved that by wanting out of Boston during a pennant run....i know it wont happen, but what a deal that would make...

@STLRFANRC - Manny?  I don't know, would people come to see him mash the ball or have flies carom off his head into the stands ala Canseco?

25MM, hmm, has a team ever paid half of their payroll to one player??

Crazy thought, even for an asylum

Give me Rocco and I'll be one happy camper,

oh so would i, rocco, if healthy....eh, reminds of bay though.  manny's asking price is coming down though, i understand that its hogwash to think that, but really....i think a lot of people would be willing to go see him...just imagine the ESPN exposure, the pirates might actually be on ESPN.  

Dunn has hit exactly 40 HR's in each of the past 4 years, but Cincy is known as a hitters park as well. With the short porch in RF at PNC, 40-50+HR wouldn't be out of the question. We have no legit 1B prospect in the system and LaRoche is a FA at the end of this year. I'm not buying into the 2007 Pearce hype, since he did nothing at all in 2008. That leaves us with a glaring hole at 1B next year. Signing Dunn to play 1B gives us a serious middle of the order threat, helps protect guys like Doumit and McLouth and would take the pressure off of guys like McCutchen/Alvarez/etc., so they aren't expected to carry the whole offense when they get here.

The more and more I think about it, the more I think Dunn would make perfect sense here.

No way to Manny though. He's way too old and a classless bum.

Nice analysis by BucFever.

I agree with your opinion on Dunn. He has power, but is maybe like a Dave Kingman - a player with over 400 lifetime HRs who will never make the Hall of Fame.  Too many K's.  You figure the Reds would have been a better team with him all those years. He's only 29? Wow. I thought in the mid 20s.

I'm driving the Baldelli bandwagon.  I think he presents a tremenous opportunity for the Pirates to pickup a star for a reasonable salary.  He has speed too. Our running game could be ferocious with Rocco, Nate and Nyger.  Sign Rocco and a decent, experienced innings eating starting pitcher.

Capn: <Big $$ FA's are a few years too early at best.  We need some Big $$ Pirates for them to join first.> Hear, hear, although, I want more than Ramon Vazquez.  Not that I have anything against you, sir.  The fact that you will be proud to wear the uniform of Clemente is great.  Srsly, if the 2009 roster is the same as 2008, we have trouble.  But I have hope!

It's winning time in Twenty-aught-nine!

“54”

STLR

Been through the players putting people in the seats--rarely happens.  Winning teams put put fans in the seats.  I went back to 1952 when the Pirates had the top HR hitter in baseball (Kiner), won only 42 games, and had the lowest attendance since WWII

StlrFan -- Let's say Manny wants $20 million a year and the average fan spends $50 at a game -- allowing for cost of goods sold and additional help at PNC do you think he would add 500,000 or so fans a year?  

The Burrell deal may be the first one to indicate where the market is falling for the non-superstar players out there this year.

To put that into perspective, the Rays just signed Burrell to a 2 year deal worth $8 mil/year. Burrell made an average of $12.42 million/year over the past 3 years. So, in essence, Burrell basically put up his career averages...and then got rewarded with almost a $4.5 million pay cut.

We are way too optimistic to think our beloved Bucs can do much better in 2009 with the same (even worse) team. At least we had Bay, Nady, Marte for 1/2 of the season. This year we won't.

We need a couple big band-aids now. Rocco and a starting pitcher.

@LarryZ - please save a seat for me on the bandwagon, when is Serbian Christmas??  Maybe they're saving Rocco for our Serbian Christmas present??

Seriously, IMO, Burrell could represent the beginning of the run on signings.  NH, pick up the phone, make the call!!

Maybe it would help if I put a can over by where the tree was and the asylum could start a Sign Rocco slush fund??

@Groat2Maz2Strangeglove wrote re: Morning links: Arbitration time

on Jan 5, 2009 3:09 PM

Angry Gobbler,

You are the second person today to refer to Rocco Baldelli as a part time player.  Leadoff did the same.  

If you are referring to me than I shall respond sir.

First if we are lucky enough to get him then a part time or platoon would be a good way to get him back in the game.  Run him out there everyday and he may fall apart.  Want to keep him fresh at least through the first year back and go from there if the health holds up.  That's why I say part time for now anyway.

Well, that shows me that the Rays management is pretty saavy. That's a good deal for Burrell at $8 million a year.  

Maybe the reason why Burrell and others won't come to Pittsburgh is not the money but the team management.  Here's hoping that we can pull off what they've done.

I would take Dunn if a buyer could be found for LaRoche which is doubtful at this time. Dunn would benefit by the dimensions at PNC.But if it's a choice of Baldelli or Dunn, I say take Baldelli because he is a more complete player.

Dunn, Burrell and others are just not the fit we need right now.  Let's look to the future.  Even if they came here we would not win with them.  Dunn strikes out to much.  JAL what's his stats of HR with men on base? Not sure what it will show but you are still looking at striking out more often then hitting hr's when he is at bat.

This is just beating the old dead horse so I will refrain from any more comments on Dunn.

Basically I want to see the young guysthis year and who is stepping up from the minors.  Next year maybe we do add these types of past time players.

Mad Hatter or Four Hatter,

If we pick up Rocco Baldelli, I move Nate to left right now because:

Center field belongs to McCutch when he arrives.  I'm hoping he arrives June 1st.

Let Nate move to left right away if Rocco is here and get comfortable in his new position.  It may advance Rocco's recovery if he stays where he has comfortably and positively spent 4 full Major league seasons.  People mentioned him in Gold Glove status a few years ago.

It also means Nate doesn't have to constantly read about his "worst in the National League" range stuff that was being written.  That must leave a bad taste for him, even with his Gold Glove.

adding my 2 cents, and agreeing with many of you here, my New Year wish would be to add Rocco and Ben Sheets, after checking as carefully as possible their medical records and future prognosis.

These 2 probably have the biggest upside for affordable $$$ out of all remaining FA's.

What really does Adam Laroche bring to the Pirates? Not batting average. Not speed. A decent glove. Too long to get the engine started in the HR category. I'm not muh into salary dumps but I wouldn't mind seeing him go.  Give Pearce another (final) shot at first base.

Baldelli--I am still trying to find out why the fever over Baldy? if this guy is that good, why isn't every team in baseball after him?  Why don't the Rays just keep him? Maby it's because they don't know if he can even make it to the park from one day to the next!

Our strongest positions in this organization are outfielders.

He can't beat out the people we have for the outfield because he can't stay on the field and as I said in an earlier post, if we are going to take this guy, figure him a platoon player or a bench player. Of course we could get lucky and a miracle would occur with his health, at that time we could review his contract.

A healthy Ben Sheets is probably the best pitcher in the National League.  Even Sheets healthy 80% of the year at the right price would be worth it.

Larry Z,

I don't subscribe to the thought that we need a couple "big band aids" for this year. Frankly, I could care less what the 2009 Pirates do, because they certainly won't be a contender. What I do care about is management taking advantage of a bargain market year for free agents by identifying one or two guys who can help us 2-3 years down the road when our stud prospects arrive. Band-Aids were the garbage that LittleYield provided us: over the hill retreads on 1 or 2 year deals. I'm talking about making a more thoughtful decision to identify a guy who can still be a solid contributor a few years down the road and going after him.

Why do so many people feel that the Pirates shouldn't add a player like Dunn until the moment that they are ready to contend? What happens if you need a 1B in 2010/2011, and your best option in FA is Sean Casey. (I joke, of course, but you get the point). Then you are forced to trade players/prospects to shore up the position. Addition through subtraction rarely gets you anywhere.

A little bit of forward thinking never hurt anyone.

@LarryZ wrote re: Morning links: Arbitration time

on Jan 5, 2009 4:17 PM

What really does Adam Laroche bring to the Pirates? Not batting average. Not speed. A decent glove. Too long to get the engine started in the HR category. I'm not muh into salary dumps but I wouldn't mind seeing him go.  Give Pearce another (final) shot at first base.

_________

Pearce is a first basemen by trade. He has played out of position with the pIrates.  IF his hitting comes around like it started to at the end of the year he could be good for us.  If not well then bye bye.

You mentioned "Give Pearce another (final) shot at first base. "

I say let's give him a first chance there and see what happens.  How many did he play at first?  I think we could count them on one hand.

MadTurk,

Your last post just exemplified the line of thinking that I do not understand. If you sign a guy to a multi-year (3+) deal, what does this season really have to do with anything? I'm not trying to harp on 1B, but look at who's out there in 2010: LaRoche, Aubrey Huff, Nick Johnson, Matt Stairs, Carlos Delgado. Do any of those guys get your juices pumping? I didn't think so!

We all know 2009 is a lost cause, but what's wrong with signing someone in 2009 who can help you in 2010/2011?

Well LittleYield (good name!!) signed older prospects, so Baldelli and Dunn at ages 27 and 29 are more desirable than say a Burnitz or (ugh!) Joe Randa in their 30s.  I don't Burnitz was terrible and he did have a good HR to at-bat ratio, but it seems like the only free agents we've sought for years are the tempting HR hitters with weak batting averages and other skills. That's why Rocco could be a nice fit. Dunn is much less agile as a fielder, OF, 1B or otherwise.

Thanks for listening. :)

BucFever - with all due respect, take "me" out of the "we" in "we all know 2009 is lost" because I have hope. Plenty of it.

Srsly.

JAL and UglyKen - thanks for the welcome earlier.

It wasn't all that long ago that we were talking about prospects and young guys -- envisioning a team with Ramirez at 3rd (granted)., Nunez at short, Pokey Reese at 2b, Kevin Young at first, Hyzdu, Hermanson, and Tyke Redmond in the outfield, at Kendall wrapped up at catcher to anchor the young guys -- we'd just nabbed Wells and Fogg and Lowe from the White Sox to go along with Benson and Saurback and Arroyo, and had Mike Williams and Solomon Torres to anchor the bullpen.  

Of course that team never really developed.  There were some disappointments among the prospects -- and we had a management team that thought you could bring in some veterans to fill in the gaps, the pitchers kept coming up with arm trouble.

The lesson that they didn't learn was that it takes the whole system being healthy -- that you can't rely on one individual or a select group of individuals.  

As far as the guys being mentioned here, Dunn, Baldelli, Sheets -- sure some could work out and some might not, but until we have the whole thing fixed from Pittsburgh to Caracas and Santo Domingo and Tokyo and everywhere in between our best short term hope is that a fluke will occur that we benefit from it for a change.  (Hey, it happens)

There are no saviors, only more pieces to the puzzle, and I'll be the first to admit that there might be some nice pieces out there, but the real work is scouting, coaching, teaching, changing attitudes and mindsets, developing skills, and until that happens I'm willing to take the crumbs that fall our way, but I won't be satisfied until we have hopes that are based on more than speculation.

@BucFever...I'll thank you for not speaking for me at least, on how I view the 2009 season.  It looks like it will be an uphill battle, but I will not agree that it's a lost cause.  

I looked up Dunn's BA, etc. the other day when we had this discussion and over the course of the season, even only picking it up half-way through, Adam had a better average, strikes out less and walks more.  Besides, I don't think Dunn can play LF at PNC.  

If we sign Rocco ( and I hope we do) I think he should play as much as possible.  He & Nate would be our two best outfielders.  I don't think Morgan will ever be an everyday player.

If Adam La. gets off to another slow start I have no problem with Pearce getting playing time at first base.  I still don't think we know what we have with him.  Pearce getting a bunch of at-bats isn't going to hurt our chance at the division tile in 09.

I remember watching them trot out Kevin Young when we knew that he wasn't going to be re-signed and he wasn't that productive anymore.  I kept wondering why they didn't give Craig Wilson more playing time there --see if was a firstbaseman or an outfielder and if he could hit on a regular basis.  They never did it and I think they wasted a great opportunity to find out.

DMac -- You got me curious about Adam vs. Adam...

Baseball Refrence gives these stats

Laroche -- Avg.  OPB    Slg   OPS+

Year          .270  .341   .500    123

Career       .273  .340   .492    114

Dunn

Year          .236  .536   .513    129

Career       .247  .381   .518    130

Dunn walked 122 times last year, LaRoche walked 54 times.

Advantage Dunn -- but surprisingly slim.  LaRoche suffers rightly or wrongly from his reputation for slow starts, but continues to be a team leader on offense.  Dunn gets on base often enough to overcome his lower batting average and hits wtih more power.  I'd want them both on my team at the expense of Nyjer or Moss.  

Leadoff,

I'm not going to get back in the Adam Dunn discussion.  He's a 1-tool player who strikes out 40% of his AB's that are not HRs.  He can't catch anything, his outfield range is as wide as his arms, and his inability to pick bouncing balls at 1B would add 8 errors apiece to the other three infielders  .  .  .  NOT what our contact throwing pitchers need in this Joe Kerrigan new start.  His acquisition would SET BACK the Pirates ability to win soon!

I DO push Baldelli because:

1/  He's a free agent:  he comes without trading any of our meager resources.

2/  He's a free agent:  he comes without trading any of our meager resources.

3/  He's a free agent:  he comes without trading any of our meager resources.

4/  He's a free agent:  he comes without trading any of our meager resources.

5/  He's a free agent:  he comes without trading any of our meager resources.

6/  Yes, outfield is a strength with our minor league prospects.  I would not TRADE for another outfield prospect.

7/  The Bucs look to be starting Nyger Morgan in left right now.  I see Morgan more as a 4th outfielder.  We need an outfielder right now, not two years from now, like Tabata or Jamie Romack.

8/  I like Brandon Moss very much.  That being said, he is coming off knee surgery and, while showing flashes of ability and power, did hit .223.  If he turns into another Steve Pearce (sorry Madturk) or Brad Eldred or Ron Wright or Ted Savage, we REALLY need another outfielder right now.

9/  Adam LaRoche is one of the few resources we have.  Go to church and pray that he has a fast start; then we can trade him in July for needs like we did Nady with his good start.

10/  Baldelli's a free agent:  he comes without trading any of our meager resources.

Baldelli is a risk:  that's the only reason we have a chance to get him.  He is/was a proven Major League player before his illness and worth the risk to see if he's back.  Without him, we look like a last place club.  If we sign him and he fails, we look like a last place club.  If we sign him at his present lower funding and he succeeds, maybe he becomes a big piece of  a winning puzzle.

 .  .  .  .  at a much lower financial commitment and yearly commitment than Adam "Don't Hit OR Catch" Dunn.

@JH...I missed on a few stats...sorry.  

If, and again it's a big if, LaRoche can put together a good complete season, he's got the potential to have better numbers.

As for Morgan or Moss, I think Moss will be okay, if his knee is good to go, but I'll agree with you on Morgan.

To all,

Good discussion on FAs, the therapist will be pleased, what is her name, anyways.

Ok, Bradley is going to Cubbies, three years 10 Mil per.

Why would I be excited with someone like Rocco?

It shows that the PBC are players in the game.  Several teams see what he can be.  We get one.

He has a pedigree, No 1 pick, five tool player, held back by illness, not injury, and supposedly, it was misdiagnosed.  

Its a good story, something to pull for.

You can never have too much depth, a strong option when on the bench, can play center, so Nate + Rocco = two centerfielders, which is what the powers that be want at PNC

His price should be reasonable and a worthy gamble.  Is he a savior?  No, as noted before, no one can grab the PBC by the seat of their pants and singlehandedly drag us to the promised land, but he's a start.

Would make me believe that this management has a game plan

Remember Rule 5 Josh Hamilton pick by Reds?

Other FAs don't excite me, this year or next, this guy will be a steal.  

When your team has 16 pretty lame years in a row, you gotta do something.  Otherwise trade people like Nate, Maholm, whoever, blow them up and start all over.  If we start the season with the same lineup we have right now, its obvious that management is throwing this season to the dogs.

And my avatar says she's tired of that and doesn't want the scraps..  : }

Go Bucs, but do something before its too late

Should clarify re: Dunn -- not for a year, and not at double LaRoche's salary.  I still see Nyjer right now as our only legit leadoff hitter, and Moss as needing to recover, but at 28 Dunn should have the 3-5 years to be part of something interesting.  LaRoche is also 28.  

Pitching remains the real question mark and need.  I remain hopeful that maturity and coaching will improve the staff.  

Whatever happens, it's the whole system that needs fixing.

The one thing I havent seen anyone mention, and forgive me if it has been mentioned, is that it takes more than two to tango.  Sure, the Pirates could offer all of these guys, but I'm not sure Burrell would have come to Pittsburgh if they offered him more money than Tampa.

As of right now, the Pirates are not an attractive club for FA's, and the Pirates are smart to not spend any money until they have a better idea of what kind of pitching staff they have.  If some of their pitchers establish themselves this year alongside Maholm, next season could be the year worth spending some money.

Think about it, if Snell and Gorzo return to form, and they find even one more pitcher to join them 2 and Maholm out of the heap that they have, that is one heckuva rotation.  McCutchen will be ready, and Tabata and Alvarez will be right around the corner, all of a sudden it makes a little sense to add a player or two, but if the pitching continues to stink this year, we will be glad they didnt sign any FA hitters for big money as that would hinder us being able to go get what we need a year or two from now when it might actually matter.

Giambi signing with A's is "imminent", although not in our needs, another one bites the dust.

IMO the next week or so will be critical as far as standing pat and getting pounded, or making some excitement.

NH, really, get moving.  Take an exlax or enema but get going

Groat2Maz2 Stu.  Well put, exactly what I was trying to say

Groat2maz- I love your description of Dunn as fielder. It is both colorful and accurate. I think Jonny Gomes is a poor mans Adam Dunn. He DHed a lot for Tampa which is a. Dunn's only true position and b. a luxury we (thankfully)do not have in the NL.

@Buc Fever wrote re: Morning links: Arbitration time

on Jan 5, 2009 4:28 PM

MadTurk,

Your last post just exemplified the line of thinking that I do not understand. If you sign a guy to a multi-year (3+) deal, what does this season really have to do with anything? I'm not trying to harp on 1B, but look at who's out there in 2010: LaRoche, Aubrey Huff, Nick Johnson, Matt Stairs, Carlos Delgado. Do any of those guys get your juices pumping? I didn't think so!

We all know 2009 is a lost cause, but what's wrong with signing someone in 2009 who can help you in 2010/2011?

___________

They excite me as much as Dunn. But ae cheaper.  So for this year I say let it go.

And I agree with the oters I have not written off this year.

If Dunn is smart he would go to the american league and be the DA.  I don;t see much use for him as an everryday player.

Aparently neiother did the Reds when they had Griffy and others.  Seems they did not win anything.  So How would he help us?

Now if these others work out and we have a clute in the outfirld and Pearce does nothing then we still have Moss to move to first?

@Groat2Maz2Strangeglove

About Pearce, I am not anointing him the spot or anyone else.  I just think he deserves a chance that he has not received from this management group.  With that said if he does not improve and show he can handle the job by all means let him go.  If we have extra outfielders then one (Moss) could move to first base.  Pearce has power and if he learns the offspeed stuff we can have him longer then Dunn and he would be a better fielder as well.

Madturk,

I actually like Steve Pearce, too.  Looking at the way Pirate management seems to be working, if Adam LaRoche has a decent start, I look for him to be moved in July, {Neal won't want to pay LaRoche $9 million for 2010} and I would hope Pearce gets first shot at 1B, if he is still a Pirate.  There will be increasingly less room for him in the outfield and I would like to see him spend April, May, June in AAA learning to hit the off speed pitch and finding his power stroke again.  The question is minor league options with Pearce.

Plus, I am REAL BIG on defense:  I haven't seen enough of Pearce at 1B to know if he can pick 'em there.  

I hope Pearce is still a Pirate and earns the spot at 1B when Big Boy LaRoche joins the Trade Train in July.

I noticed Yankees have Nady on the trading block. If we want him we can get him back.

Milton Bradley just got 3 years/ $30mil from the Cubs.

He can hit but I wonder if he is worth all that money with all those headaches he causes.  I'm not too sure what kind of fielder he is.

At least that is one less team that will be looking to sign Rocco!

Been a busy day

Mad asked about Dunn's HRs with runners on

25 with the bases empty and 15 with runners on.  2 of them were grand slams

Groat 2 Maz,As much as I would like to think that McCutchen is on the fast track, the reality is that the track has slowed down. Even the Pirate site talks about a level of concern that he may not be the elite prospect they envisioned. Last year was nothing special and I suspect that unless he lights it up in spring, he will spend the year in AAA. Two years from now we may be talking more about Tabata than MCCutchen.

I suppose it's nearly impossible to even hope we could get Nady back.  I know...not bloody likely, but it would be nice.  

Here is a thought. What if Adam La finally figures it out this spring and contributes with the bat in April and May. Instead of July trade bait wouldn't he become one of the core. Again if he hits in the spring he projects to 35 HRs which along with his glove makes him a much bigger value than Dunn. Just thinkin'

Papacoach - I'm all for your "just thinkin" and I hope it becomes reality. That would be great.

You and I POH are two of the great optimists of this group. But I think with Mr. Longs winter program if it ever was possible it will be this year

Yes we are, papacoach. I just wish we had the caliber of lineup that it didn't matter if Adam slacked or not. But since we don't, we need him Game 1 through Game 81, not just 82-on.

@DMac--I suppose it's nearly impossible to even hope we could get Nady back.  I know...not bloody likely, but it would be nice.  

All the Yankees are looking for is some pitching for Nady.

@Leadoff...well, since we don't have much of that to spare, I'd say I'll just keep dreaming.  ;-)

@DMac--

Your right, we don't have a lot to give up, but a Duke or Dumatriat may not make the starting five for the Bucs, which might make them expendable for a quality rightfielder.

The Yankees are not looking for a top of the line pitcher, they are looking for depth and they don't want to deal with Boro's.

We have FC who does not fear Boros.

@leadoff...I don't mind if Dumatrait goes, but I hope Duke stays.  And I know I would not be the only one who'd like to see Nady back in Black and Gold.

Nady had his first injury season. Do we really want to gamble he can do it again?

I would be interested in Nady if he was a FA. We do not know how good/bad this pitching staff is going to be so to trade away any arms that would interest the Yankees would be foolish………Who is his agent?...........It isn’t going to happen.

Hi gang.  I like the X man.  However, I would not trade one of the players we got for him back one to one at this point.  I'm not saying I would have liked a trade in the summer one to one, (or 2 for 2 -marte-as the case may be), but I like the potential of all 4 of the guys we got in return . . . and isn't it interesting after trading 3 of them they are now looking for pitchers in return.  That trade is looking better all the time and it looked pretty good to begin with.

Arriba you make a great point. The Yanks want pitchers and want rid of Nady. NH made a good trade.

Trafe Zach Duke for Nady

Arriba and Papa

I agree too--hold the pitchers until we know what we have--Nothing will help the team win until the pitching comes through.  

While Nady has always had a great bat, he has been injury prone for much of his career. His agent is Scott Boras; I think that that will kill any possibility of a deal anyway. We are too short on major league pitchers, especially the kind that we control for years to come (Duke’s relatively cheep).  Our pitching staff is too questionable to trade one of the pitchers that are likely to win a position on the starting staff, and if he doesn’t win a starting job, then off to the pen with him.

Ugly - Now THAT is what I call an avatar! I had an uncle who looked kinda like that ... until he put his teeth back in, and he looked all normal n'at again!

NOTICE

This is to let everyone know that tomorrow the THE OFFICIALLY UNOFFICIAL PBC BLOGS AND MLB LINKS: probably will not be up until--well, until morning.  So if anyone is here when the new thread usually goes up after midnight do not be shocked if you do not get thaose links until 6:30 or 7 am.

UK

You do get some great avatars.  

uglyken wrote re: Morning links: Arbitration time

on Mon, Jan 5 2009 8:56 PM

While Nady has always had a great bat, he has been injury prone for much of his career. His agent is Scott Boras; I think that that will kill any possibility of a deal anyway. We are too short on major league pitchers, especially the kind that we control for years to come (Duke’s relatively cheep).  Our pitching staff is too questionable to trade one of the pitchers that are likely to win a position on the starting staff, and if he doesn’t win a starting job, then off to the pen with him.

Ken,

I think the entire premise of soley using pitchers you "control" for significant time periods is fraught with uncertainty.  Pitchers, like the ones the Pirates were relying upon (mostly soft tossers) take years to develop.  By the time they figure out how to get batters out consistently, they are free agents.  I think there has to be a couple of veterans on every starting rotation staff, Pirates included, to have any chance at being a consistently "good team."

Just an opinion - no basis in scientific fact.  ;-)

Bay, I had a hard day and reached into the refrigerator and got myself a beer. Well it turned out to be kind of skunky and it made me think of that Bitter Beer Face that you get if you don’t drink Keystone or Keystone Light.

@JAL...Thanks for the heads-up!  

RE: Nady...I'd much rather see Dumatrait go before Duke, but we really can't let any of them go before we know who's going to be in the starting rotation...as much as I'd like to see a deal done to have XMan back.  

Allarmy <<soley using pitchers you "control">>

I just don't want to give up on a pitcher whose minor league stats look better than Ohelndorf and Karstens; two pitchers that many have high hopes for. IMO his mechanics was wrongly adjusted by the previous administration’s staff, and he looked like he may have turned the corner toward fulfilling his potential during the last part of the season.

D Mac

You are welcome--I will be doing tem for a few days and I turn into a pumpkin after 11.  Function much better at 6 am than midnight.  

We only have 1 pitcher that qualifys as a 2 or possibly a 3, I don't think any of the rest are untouchable in the right deal.

leadoff <<right deal>>

What would be a good deal for us? It's one thing to sign a FA without giving anything up, but to give up a pitcher when our current staff is already so weak is not wise. How long will we get to keep Nady? Are we certain that last year, a rare occurrence of him not missing a lot of time due to injury, will return to his injury prone years?

leadoff--saying keep the pitchers who have some upside instead of trading them for Nady is very different than saying all the pitchers are "untouchable in the right deal."

Laedoff

I think that there are several pitchers with the ability to be a 2 or 3--Maholm, Snell has the arm if he gets the head, Ollie has a the arm to be one, Gorzo also could be at least a 3 if he comes back from last years awful season.  

Good evening all.

At the risk of repeating myself, I went over the pitching situation a bit on Saturday and (I think) demonstrated that there is a realistic basis from which we can expect to see a 24 - 28 game increase in the number of wins from the starters as a group in 2009.

I won't bore y'all to death by going through the numbers again, but suffice it to say if the PBC is going to spend $$ in the FA market, I would like to see them get Baldelli and skip over any pitching. I really think that the club will see more gain via performance improvements than they will by signing the next Luis Tiant.

That said, I still stand by my prediction that even with a signing such as Baldelli and getting rid of The Indifferent One, the best I am expecting for the PBC is 8 games under .500 in '09.

I continue to be of several minds on what ought to happen during the rest of the off-season.  Baldelli continues to seem like the best option among the LIKELY free agents.  I broke a rule this afternoon and took a stand for an unmade trade, I like Dunn purely on offense, provided the price is right and the deal is for long enough for him to be part of what is going to happen.  No more one year rentals, please.  

While I appreciate a good defensive player, a poor defensive player will not hurt a club as much as a poor offensive player will.  Read Moneyball or ask one of those SABR guys why.  It has to do with most of defense being pitching, while every one has to bat.

If we're going to improve in 2009 it has to come through pitching and beefing up the offense.  I think that even if we stand pat both will happen if for no other reason than we had injured starters at 2nd and SS most of the season, Andy LaRoche has to improve at 3B or anyone we put there will be an upgrade, and Nyjer shows an ability to hit for average and get on base in the leadoff spot.  

Likewise Murphy's law applied to our pitching staff last year, and this year perhaps with the addition of Kerrigan at the very least we have reduced the number of things that can go wrong.  Looking at our staff, I don't see any superstars, but we could have an abundance of competent talent to line our pockets with at the trade deadline.

I continue to count myself among the optimists.  I won't get into a discussion about who's most optimistic, but I'm right up there -- I think we have a core in place and at the very worst the corner's turned, but I hope and expect we're going to surprise some people next year.  Let's play the games in 2009 before we start counting ourselves out.  

Nady = wishful thinking = longing for the past.  I prefer to go forward.

Oh, and before I leave for the evening -- remember I'm pullin' for ya'.  We're all in this together.

Cubs sign Bradley

hosted.ap.org/.../BBN_CUBS_BRADLEY

proofreading -- should be "unmade deal" not "unmade trade" re: Dunn.  

We really should be able to edit our own (not other people's) posts after we make them.

Twins owner dead at age 93

hosted.ap.org/.../BBA_OBIT_POHLAD

I did not say I would trade anyone for Nady, I said the Yankees are looking to move Nady for pitching depth and we do have some pitchers that are not going to make this years roster.

If I were to talk trade with the Yankees, I would not be talking about 3 or 4 pitchers, 1 and maby a AA pitcher would be what I would give up, don't forget with Nady and McClouth you have 2/3 of a very productive outfield versus a couple of pitchers that are not even going to make this team.

We have a lot of arms and so many of them are very similiar, take Mahlom away from this group and what do you have, a

bunch of guys with 5 or more era's. Yes the new pitching coach might help, but look at everything realisticly, we are where we are.

Nady had a banner year last year.  He hits tons above his avrage.  He stayed healthy for once.  As good as he was this past season, don't you find it a bit peculiar that the yankies have decided to upgrade the Nady position?

I think it would be a shocker to see him repeat his past performance.  

If he does not repeat last year but does repeat his previous years then he becomes not such a desirable acquistion.

I second Arrib's statement, we do not need to go back to a 50 50 shootout on which player he will be next year, unless they will take Baustista straight up.