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Post-Gazette beat writers Dejan Kovacevic and Chuck Finder blog about the Pittsburgh Baseball Club.

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Pirates Q&A: Not playing the market

By Dejan Kovacevic | 11 a.m. Wednesday

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We have Qs ...

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Q: Is it smart for the Pirates to be avoiding free agents and targeting prospects?

In honor of 'Moneyball' and its premise that teams like the A's (and Pirates) need to take advantage of the market: The value of top prospects has never been higher as teams see how cost-effective they are compared to veterans. Teams are hoarding them and won't part with them even for Johan Santana or Jason Bay, crossing off their top five in trade talks. How did the Twins not get the Mets' top prospect for the best pitcher in baseball? Very few good prospects are even available (unless the A's are trading them).

The value of free agents might never be lower. There is an unusually high number of good players on the market and economic gloom in the forecast. Teams are moving very slowly in signing players, and with the exception of the big-ticket guys, you would expect players to sign at lower than normal rates. This is why many teams didn't offer arbitration to guys like Adam Dunn and Pat Burrell. How many outfielders are on the market this year? It is a bad time to be a free agent, and teams will get them cheaper later.

Everybody was shocked when the A's started trading prospects for superstars such as Matt Holliday and targeting free agents such as Rafael Furcal. But they are once again playing the market, selling prospects high and buying free agents low (they offered less than $10 million per year to Furcal).

Since the Pirates have some money to spend, why not target two younger free agents, sign them for four years, and try to bring them in at a good value? And why target prospects when they are valued so high? They are once again on the wrong side of the market, buying prospects high and selling veterans like Bay and Jack Wilson low. 

Ian Leyda of Zelienople

KOVACEVIC: Your argument is terrific, Ian, and it underscores, as you correctly point out, that the smartest thing low-spending teams can do is go for best value. Oakland looks at free agents and sees them as a smart investment, perhaps even smarter with longer-term deals. Meanwhile, the Pirates are banging their heads against the wall because no one will give up prospects.

Which leads me back, as so often happens, to the Jason Bay trade. Once that happens, given the state of the Pirates' system, the bridge is crossed. There is no going back, if only because the holes to fill now spread across the diamond. If only Xavier Nady had been dealt, then Andrew McCutchen could have eventually stepped in, and some pitching could have been added, maybe through the means you describe above.

And again, I repeat: Keeping Bay and the most of the rest of the current team would not have had to come at the expense of the other stuff the Pirates wanted to do, from Latin America to the draft to building up the system, so long as those remained funded properly.

What damage would have been wrought by fielding a truly competitive team the next couple years?

Seems that the Pirates' new management entered the process with a firm idea and stuck to it. And there is nothing wrong with that, intrinsically. In fact, some would call it commendable. But different circumstances call for reactions. Once management saw that the offense, chemistry and some other elements looked to be in place last summer, maybe there could have been an adjustment to the pre-ordained Bay-must-go plan. They could have capitalized on the kind of thinking that you describe, going for legitimate value through free agency and waiting until the cycle changes to try to pry away other team's top prospects.

In the interim, there might have been some competitive baseball played in Pittsburgh, and there is value in that, too: It would represent a tangible, real change in culture, something that would have a positive impact inside and outside the organization. The players would believe, as would the prospects coming up, as well as potential outsiders who might previously never have wanted to play for the Pirates. The public surely would get on board, too, and that would result in healthier attendance and other revenue streams.

But all of that, for reasons outlined at length in previous writings, was predicated on keeping Bay. Not because Bay singlehandedly would have carried the franchise. Obviously, that was not the case during his time here. Rather, it was because his trade set into irreversible motion the dismantling of the current roster and, with little depth immediately behind them, it probably will be a long time now until the team is competitive at the top level again.

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Q: DK, if John Grabow is considered a valuable left-handed pitcher, why do the Pirates not consider signing him long term instead of trying to trade him?

Ryan Coulson of Sumter, S.C.

KOVACEVIC: See above, Ryan. Once the Bay trade happens, pretty much everything else in that age bracket is moot.

From a baseball standpoint, Grabow almost surely will be more valuable to the Pirates than the prospect they receive in return. That is why it is commendable that, when they did not hear an offer they liked at the July deadline, they simply kept Grabow. It remains to be seen what happens with Grabow next, but I do know that the team has not approached him about a multiyear contract.

He will be a free agent after next season, and he might be one of those Type A or B guys, which means he could follow the Damaso Marte path in that his trade value will increase in that sense.

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Q: Dejan, have you heard about any Pirates planning on playing in the World Baseball Classic?

Leife Martin of Miami

KOVACEVIC: Too early for the preliminary rosters, Leife, and even Neal Huntington has not been formally informed of any. The only two locks that I can see are Dave Davidson for Canada and Mpho Ngoepe, the shortstop from South Africa. With Josh Hamilton saying this week he would not compete for the U.S., maybe that opens a door for Nate McLouth. Ramon Vazquez could play for Puerto Rico, Romulo Sanchez for Venezuela ... but all that is far from being known.


Posted Dec 17 2008, 11:00 AM by Dejan Kovacevic

Comments

JHadar wrote re: Pirates Q&A: Not playing the market
on Wed, Dec 17 2008 11:41 AM

The market is shifting.  Conventional wisdom is wrong.  And once again it's Billy Beane who figured it out.  That was a great analysis by both the questioner and DK.  

Of course it was Beane who created the market for prospects in the first place.  Now that it's saturated we have a situation where "less than $10 million a year" is a bargain and guys who have never played an inning of major league ball can't be pried loose from other clubs on the chance that they might perform well for about 4 or 5 cents on the dollar.

The market is what it is, but baseball has one of the strangest economies of any business in existence.

uglyken wrote re: Pirates Q&A: Not playing the market
on Wed, Dec 17 2008 11:53 AM

Ian

"Is it smart for the Pirates to be avoiding free agents and targeting prospects?"

That's the best argument toward why the PBC should be looking at the FA market as opposed to the relentless pursuit of prospects and "last chance" FA's.

Excelent points!

NuttingHostage wrote re: Pirates Q&A: Not playing the market
on Wed, Dec 17 2008 12:13 PM

DK,

Your response to Ian is perhaps the single best overall analysis I have seen yet regarding the Pirates, their actions last summer and their current state.

Very well put.

However, I caution you.

I know it's your blog, but there are many people here who will not appreciate this viewpoint and any discussion of potential shortcomings of the Pirates new front office.

;-)

NuttingHostage wrote re: Pirates Q&A: Not playing the market
on Wed, Dec 17 2008 12:35 PM

DK,

I'm curious.

Do you think if you posed this question regarding the shift of the MLB market (Premium for prospects, devalueing of free agents) to NH or FC during your next interaction, it could potentially turn on a light bulb and shift their thinking?

uglyken wrote re: Pirates Q&A: Not playing the market
on Wed, Dec 17 2008 12:43 PM

Hostage <<I know it's your blog, but there are many people here who will not appreciate this viewpoint and any discussion of potential shortcomings of the Pirates new front office.>>

There are people here that do not appreciate anyone’s opposing viewpoint. Lots of folks defend management to a fault, and others that bash them relentlessly no matter what the news. That is not necessarily a bad thing as long as we keep it respectful.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Pirates Q&A: Not playing the market
on Wed, Dec 17 2008 12:53 PM

Ken,

I agree.

That was my attempt at a joke.

Probably not my best work.

;-)

KMRempel22 wrote re: Pirates Q&A: Not playing the market
on Wed, Dec 17 2008 1:02 PM

GREAT question, Ian, and equally perspicacious analysis, Dejan!  (Sorry, just heard that word last week and was looking for the right opportunity to use it)!

uglyken wrote re: Pirates Q&A: Not playing the market
on Wed, Dec 17 2008 1:14 PM

Hostage

Most of us certainly recognize your humor, but some of the newer folks my not be sure.

;-)

uglyken wrote re: Pirates Q&A: Not playing the market
on Wed, Dec 17 2008 1:25 PM

@ KMRempel22 <<perspicacious >>

You may be raising the social status of this blog with those kind of words.

Reading the PBC Blog is kind of like using "verbal advantage", yinz help me learn new stuff every day.

Buc Fever wrote re: Pirates Q&A: Not playing the market
on Wed, Dec 17 2008 1:31 PM

Ian's question was probably the best Q&A of the past year, honestly. He is spot on with pretty much every bit of it.

I thought DK's response was very well thought out, but here's the one piece that keeps being mentioned that I do not necessarily agree with:

Why does the trading of Bay, who had 1 year left on his deal, preclude the Pirates from signing a guy in a down market to a 3-4 year deal? Ok, we all realize this team isn't going to compete THIS year. But, I'm sure that NH and FC plan to become contenders within the next 3-4 years. If they don't, they'll be collecting unemployment checks by the time we hit year 5.

So, why is it that just because our team isn't built to contend this year, that we can't think proactively and sign a guy to a long term deal knowing that by the time that deal is nearing an end, we will be competing? Worst case scenario is that the rebuild falls apart again and you have a valuable piece to trade for future prospects.

What's wrong with being proactive in a down market? Why does the outlook for this team THIS YEAR preclude the Pirates from being active? With all the money they have saved over the past 10 years dumping salary at the trade deadlines, we've got more than enough money to take a run at a guy like Furcal/Burrell/etc.

Thundercrack wrote re: Pirates Q&A: Not playing the market
on Wed, Dec 17 2008 1:57 PM

I am as tired of losing as anyone else. But I am willing to give the new management team more time.  And I don't seem to get to emotional with the minor league free agents that they sign or that they let Jason Michaels (a bench player) sign somewhere else.

Billy Beane seems to get a lot of credit for trading his veterans (Harden, Haren, Swisher, etc) for prospects.  I think we need to give a few more months of time before we declare the Nady and Bay trades disasters.

McClatchey and Littlefield did the most damage to this organization than anyone else.  We need to give NH and FC more than one year to rebuild this franchise.  

STLRFANRC wrote re: Pirates Q&A: Not playing the market
on Wed, Dec 17 2008 3:04 PM

DK, thanks for posting my question, however i didnt realize what stiff competition i was up against with the first one from Ian....

Buc Fever wrote re: Pirates Q&A: Not playing the market
on Wed, Dec 17 2008 3:20 PM

BTW:

Is Ian a blog contributor/follower or just a hapless Pirates fan who sent in a Q&A. Ian, if you're out there, are you one of us? If not...here's an invitation!

DanW wrote re: Pirates Q&A: Not playing the market
on Wed, Dec 17 2008 5:06 PM

Ian, that was a superb question.  I remember being surprised when the A's got Matt Holliday and you point out the logic in how the market drove that decision well.  It is similar to the logic that the current recession is the best time to invest (if you can afford to, of course), since stocks are becoming undervalued.  Time will tell if the strategy works, but at least it is a fresh idea.

waittilnextyear wrote re: Pirates Q&A: Not playing the market
on Wed, Dec 17 2008 5:09 PM

Like the rest of you, I was very impressed with Ian's analysis and DK's forthright reply.  I conclude (again) that our Buccos are the George Costanzas of the baseball road.  Whatever they decide is usually 180 degrees wrong and they should do the exact opposite.

Al48197 wrote re: Pirates Q&A: Not playing the market
on Wed, Dec 17 2008 5:28 PM

Hey, have we talked about that posting in Forbes Magazine about how the Pirates are one of the 5 most profitable franchises in MLB?  Or are we still believing *anything* that comes out of management's mouth talking about new "strategies" for success?

Thundercrack wrote re: Pirates Q&A: Not playing the market
on Wed, Dec 17 2008 5:35 PM

The A's had a lot of prospects to trade away ---because they traded a lot of their established starters  (when those players were at -or close to- their highest value)

I wonder what the A's fans will be saying when Holliday leaves via free agency after next season.

JosePagan wrote re: Pirates Q&A: Not playing the market
on Wed, Dec 17 2008 9:44 PM

I think we should keep one thing in mind though and that was we had no clear idea how "down" of a market it would be this year at the time Bay was traded.

Ian's Q was excellent. Nonetheless there is a bit of hindsight built into it. Remember: "Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." I think what we are seeing here, and as NH has pointed out, organizations like Oakland react quickly to the changing reality. Others react less quickly. That difference separates the winners from the rest of the pack.

Piano Legs Hickman wrote re: Pirates Q&A: Not playing the market
on Thu, Dec 18 2008 4:38 PM

One thing to keep in mind about any rebuilding strategy: it all comes down to identifying talent, and knowing whom to sign and keep.  This was Littlefield's biggest weakness, I think, and one reason the cupboard was so bare in the minors (along with abandoning Latin America).  Sure, he hit it right with Maholm and Capps, but he originally had Nate as a 4th OF, and was convinced Doumit couldn't help at catcher, to name just two examples.  Not to mention thinking Jeromy Burnitz was worth signing...

Bottom line for NH: if he can't spot people who can play, it doesn't matter if he spends $100 million on FAs or trades Jack Wilson for 10 prospects--the team will go nowhere.