Winter Meetings, Day 4: Pirates 'very, very close' with Vazquez; select pitcher in Rule 5 but lose Bloom

Let me just say, WHY???  I think I just threw up in my mouth a little but.  God I hate this team.  Just move.  Can't we start up the contraction talk again???  

Wow Dejan, the holiday gifts just keep on coming for the Buccos.

Don't understand the consternation.  Vazquez is obviously going to be the UT infielder.  He's an upgrade of biblical proportions over Luis Rivas, not to mention Bixler/Cruz.

Okay, fine, we get Ramon Vazquez...but what's the status on bringing back Jose Hernandez?  Is it going to happen?

Okay, fine, we get Ramon Vazquez...but what's the status on bringing back Jose Hernandez?  Is it going to happen?

"Drafts in that sequence have not gone well for the club in recent years"

DK, why do you non-chalantly make fun of us like that... we are all aware of what the Orioles have that coulda/shoulda/woulda been ours if .... well, you know...

Also, Vasquez is a utility guy. This is not a big deal. I would rather have him than Eckstein, Gomez, or Rivas. We do need DD though...

Any word on who is thinking of taking Kyle Bloom away?

WTM - Upgrade of biblical proportions?  These are Vazquez career numbers INCLUDING his season in Texas...

1747 AB's/ 21HR's/160 RBI/.2570 BA/.3275OBP/.3578 SLG

So, with an OPS of .6853 how is an upgrade over anything.  And, at 2M per, which is more than Mark Loretta got from LA, why not just throw Bixler out there if he's just a utility player.  I mean, it isn't like they're winning more than 70 games anyway???

Guy plays all four infield positions, .290 was a good year for him.  

.290 was a CAREER year for him.

He is an ok utility infielder, I dont think he is worth $2million a year though.  I thiought one of the reasons he was in the minors a couple years ago is that he is not that good at short.

Guys,  Calm down with the response to Vazquez.  He is a UT guy and way better than Gomez, Eckstein, etc.  Especially offensively.  He played quite a bit last year in place or the oft-injured Blalock and did pretty well.  Granted the Ballpark in Arlington is hitter-friendly.  But this is a good signing for the Bucs.  

Nice.....We now long awaited replacement for Jeff Reboulet and his porn-stache.

haha jeff reboulet nice comparison

Well, at least we're only losing one player, an improvement over the Littlefield years..

I will be more sorry to see Bloom go than Vasquez arrive.  

Why did they send Bloom to the HWL anyways, to showcase him for the Rule V draft?  The guy finally starts to show something and off he goes, offered at peak value for 50k.

It will hurt to see Bloom blossom elsewhere.

Jimbo,

Try checking what Vazquez would be upgrading from.  His career OPS is over 100 points better than what the Pirates got from Rivas, Bixler or Cruz last year, and unlike Gomez he can probably still play the middle infield.  And exactly what do you think the typical backup infielder hits?  If he had a career OPS of .750, he'd be signing for $6-8M a year to start somewhere.

I hate to break it to you guys, but Ramon Vazquez out hit both Jack Wilson and Freddy Sanchez by about .130 OPS points last season.  He's no defensive whiz but on the offensive side of the equation he's an upgrade over both Wilson and Sanchez and hitting left handed won't hurt him at PNC Park either.

Clearly a short term fix at age thirty two I'd much rather see Vazquez playing short, talking some walks and hitting a dozen home runs over the right field wall for a season or three than the designated out Jack Wilson.

-Lou,

I just don't see it.  What's the justification to say he's a good signing?  All I'm saying is that's an awful lot to spend on someone who was garbage before last season when you could just as easily throw another garbage man out for half that amount.

For those who wanted to watch the Rule 5 draft.  I think you can on mlb.com.

$4 million on a utlity player, now that makes sense. Way to spend money saved on getting rid of Bay and Nady. I should have seen this coming -- a Cleveland player with a .2006 209 batting average who hadn't hit over .250 since 2003 (batting averages at Texas don't count). These Cleveland connections are becoming way too frequent.

On Vazquez-

The bench is one of our primary problems and I am glad we are addressing it, as far as Vazquez is concerned the only stat I care about is can he hit with the bases loaded in the 9th and can he play average defense. The rest of the stats to me are meaningless.

You would have to be crazy to think he is going to play shortstop on a regular basis. They still have Jack and if they were smart they would keep him for 2 more years, by then they would know about a few of the draft picks they got for short. There is also a possiblity that the 3rd best player in the draft will fall to them, because the Pirates draft 4th. The 3rd best player in the draft is a Shortstop.

Okay, if the Pirates know they're probably going to lose Kyle Bloom and he's shown so much promise (and they crave pitching depth), why not add him to the 40-man roster?  They have 2 open spots, so why not add him?  Given that it is already noon here, it is too late to add him, but does anybody know the latest they could've added him to the 40-man roster to protect Bloom from the Rule 5 Draft?

The free agent market's plummeting all around, but way to set the bar  high for those rare commodity utility players. I'm beginning to have questions about whether these guys know much.

PBC took LHP Donald Veal.

Per baseball-reference.com, he compares to Ed Ott.  

Also compares to Biff Pocoboba.

FYI.. ex-cleveland Indian.   Still better upside than Carlos Gomez.

@ Cave

Good point, we didn’t send PA to the HWL because it would have been unfair to remove a player that was already assigned. I hope they know what they’re doing here because I’m scratching my head over that too. To send him to the winter league, have him pitch well while there, and not protect him…..hummm

Tigers took Bloom...

Pirates might lose a player they (supposedly) like.

Pirates have two open spots on 40-man roster.

Pirates shouldn't pick anyone on draft.

Something here just doesn't make sense.

I have to agree with all comments on Bloom, heck, he's a lefty, a valuable commodity and could be stashed at the end of a bullpen, it makes you wonder

Veal is from the Cubbies?  A lefty?

ugly

That is the type of logic from Opie that worries me.  

Bloom didn't last long.  Maybe the Tigers can through him in to sweeten the deal for Jack.

This is for WTM and Uncle Dirt...

Career OPS - Vazquez(.6853), Wilson(.6859), Sanchez(.7533), Gomez(.685) and Rivas(.680).

So, basically, there is NO upgrade over Rivas or Gomez even with his career season last year.  Forget Bixler, but at least he was in house.  Sanchez, even with the year he won the batting title is no better than Mark Loretta (.760) who signed with L.A. for less money than the propsed deal for Vazquez.  So, you can get a .750 OPS middle infielder for less than $6-$8M per year.  

Again, we can debate this all day, but the fact of the matter is Vazquez numbers are nearly identical to Gomez and Rivas who each signed for much less.  Money that could be used elsewhere than on a bench player.  If this team had a shot to contend; sure sign him.  But since this team is looking like a 100 loss squad, why bother???  

Bizrow,

Yes, Veal was in the Cubs' minor league organization

Man, I hope we get those straight jackets for Christmas, we're gonna need them...

@Cave <<Pirates just selected pitcher Donald Veal with the fourth overall pick in the Rule 5 draft>>

That may be actually be a possibility....hummm…..I’m still scratching my head….

Jimbo,

But can you get one to play for this Pirates team?

I don't know Jimbo, I saw what we had last year, and he can't be worse. To me this is too small of a deal for me to have strong feelings either way.

Pirates took Santos, I think I spelled it right, from the Yankee organization in Rule 5 AAA draft.

Maby I am wrong here, but I thought he was one of guys that was in the orginal trade for Nady.

Does anybody know for sure?

On the plus side, Veale was the Cubs minor league co-player of the year in 2006.  You've got to hope there's something there.  Question (DK) on a pick like this, since he will be on the Pirates' staff, did Kerrigan have any imput, even on what kind of guy he'd like, in general, if not specifically?

Uk, Understood, but I was hoping for more, and to lose a lefty and pick a lefty, well, is this a tie for Christmas?  (Literally)

Pirates take Quinero, from the Indians in the 2nd round of the AAA rule 5 draft. He is from Cleveland and is an infielder.

Leadoff,

Thanks for picking me up...things got a bit busy here

@Leadoff--R5 Draft

Thank you for tracking and posting this information....Much appreciated.

is it jsut me or going by stats alone it looks liek the pirates are tryuing to get worse through the r5 draft?

we give up a 4 to 1.5 era guy for a 4 - 10 era guy

bloom seems to go the right direction new guy seems to fit the pirates well i guess

leadoff

I do not think so--Santos was signed by the Yanks a non-drafted FA in 2003

The link above about Santos :

www.minorleaguebaseball.com/.../stats.jsp

says he is a left handed pitcher not a short stop?

Unless I'm reading the stats wrong, it seems to me, based on their AAA records, the  W-L is almost the same and the ERA is fairly close.  They appear fairly even to me.   Or am I misunderstanding the numbers?

Bloom...

web.minorleaguebaseball.com/.../stats.jsp

Veal...

www.minorleaguebaseball.com/.../stats.jsp

Here is what concerns me:

The outgoing: Bloom: went 5-8 with a 4.19 ERA for Class AA Altoona this past season but was exceptional in the Hawaiian Winter League recently, going 2-0 with a 1.50 ERA in seven starts, with 32 strikeouts and 11 walks in 30 innings.

The incoming, Veal, just pitched nine innings in the Arizona Fall League and had a 10.00 ERA with nine strikeouts and 10 walks.

Let me make sure I "get" this whole crazy baseball idea: If it's your turn to be defense, walks are BAD.

If it's your turn to be offense, walks are GOOD.

I'd really like to know why Bloom wasn't on the 40-man. There's got to be an explanation for that which makes perfect sense and we'll all go "oh, I didn't know that before - THAT makes sense. Yeah, he can go."

There's got to be, right? RIGHT?

Veal has a live arm.  He needs more control but he has fastball that hits the low 90s, a curve, and a change-up.  He is lefty who was highly thought of but  didn't seem to advance much at AA.  He is a year younger than Bloom and his ERA was not much higher at AA.  

I normally hibernate from talking baseball until football is over and hockey and college hoops heat up toward the postseason, but I can't refrain any longer.

Gibmente is back. And I'm compelled to do the math:

1. We dump our two most marketable players, Jason Bay and Xavier Nady, for a bunch of prospects who good teams had given up on. The only possible value we get is a young head case, Jose Tabata, who for sake of argument we'll call Son of Jose Guillen.

2. We draft, get held hostage by and allow ourselves to be extorted by a No. 1 draft pick, Pedro Alvarez, who, my sources tell me, finally shows up with so much body fat that it's ridiculous. For sake of argument, we can only hope he turns out to be Son of Aramis Ramirez, who eventually put down the fork (and possibly performance-enhancing substances) to mature into a top-notch major leaguer. Oh .. and we draft a damaged-goods pitching prospect No. 2, try to lowball him, then let him walk when he doesn't bite.

3. We try frantically to squander another popular, proven big league veteran, Jack Wilson, most likely to get fleeced by another organization smarter than we are that dumps a pile of unfulfilled potential in our lap. Trust me: We'll act like we're holding out for real prospects, then panic and throw away Jack just like we did the other two guys.

4. We are not, apparently, frantically trying to dump Freddy Sanchez, a nice guy who tries hard but will never even come close to repeating his two best seasons past. No range. No power. No arm. Clusters of bloop hits. At least if a smarter club fleeces us here, we don't lose much, believe me.

5. Our accomplishments at the winter meetings, so far: We trade a lazy catcher for a potential backup catcher at best; our only free-agent negotiations are with utility players; and we let a lefty who can throw strikes go in the Rule 5 draft ... only to take a lefty who can't throw strikes.

Add it up, people. And you thought Team Littlefield was bad.

Go Steelers, Penguins and Pitt!

JAL - bless your heart and your statistical mind. I'm so glad you're here.

@ PoH <<There's got to be, right? RIGHT?>>

That's my line of thought....I don't get it....it's a small thing, but it just doesn't make sense right now.

Gibmente - hand out some dang ibuprofen with that post. Srsly.

Minor league W/L records and ERAs are nearly useless in predicting major league success.  K/9 is probably the most meaningful stat.  You really have to go with the judgment of your scouts with minor league pitchers.  The Pirates preferred Veal to Bloom because Veal's stuff is much better, which gives him a much higher ceiling.

WTM - "He's an upgrade of biblical proportions over Luis Rivas, not to mention Bixler/Cruz."

What do you mean by biblical proportions ... like Jesus turning water to wine, Moses parting the Red Sea or Charlton Heston in Ben Hur?

Gibmente - Welcome back!

Ibuprofen, Plenty of Hope?

By the time this new regime is done running us further into the ground, we'll need something a lot stronger than that, trust me.

POH, hand out some dang ibuprofen with that post. Srsly.

I don't think thats strong enough unless you take it with 151 Bacardi

What worries me is that none of these moves seem to make a lot of sense, maybe DK can shed some light on it later.

But thats it, right, the Bellagio WM is being shut down as we speak?

Gib

Don't see much difference in the two pitchers

Bloom walked 55 in 109 innings and Veal walked 81 in 145 innings

Bloom had 93 K and Veal 123

So is 1 walk per 1.9 innings for Bloom and 1 per 1.7 innings for Veal 1 strikeout for every 1.2 innings for both.  

Veal's winter league stats consist of only 9 innings so can't put much stock in that.  He had 10 outings and 2 were bad so that really skews a small number of innings.  Plus, he was a a starter in AA and was used as a reliever in the winter league.

POH

Thanks--Glad you are here too

"What do you mean by biblical proportions ... like Jesus turning water to wine, Moses parting the Red Sea or Charlton Heston in Ben Hur?"

When you're talking about upgrading from Luis Rivas, yeah, something like that.

The PBC didn't have Bloom on the 40 man roster because they needed two open spots -- one for an equivalent/worse pitcher (Veal) and one for a useless bench player to whom they want to pay $2M per year for two years.

Guys, Huntington has it all figured out....

The Twins just re-signed Nick Punto. So I think they have lost interest in J Wilson.

Gil,

What do you think the PBC should do, remain stagnet?  

To those wondering about getting Veal and losing Bloom: just read what NH said (and i know some here don't want to listen to him, but i can't change who's in charge) He said Bloom's numbers looked good b/c he was essentially exploiting A hitters as a AA pitcher. Yeah, the Tigers took him and we probably should've made better efforts to protect him, but throw out the numbers and these pitchers are similar. I think Veal comes with a better pedigree (based on where he was in the Cubs system, what, two years ago [shared MiL Co-player of the year in the Cubs system in'06 w/ Rich Hill]) If he gets proper coaching (fingers crossed) then who knows?

WTM - ok, understand upside, but are we strong enough to give up talent?

If Bloom was so "irreplacable", why wasn't he called up in early July?  

Perspective :)

Oh goodie! And here I thought the Pirates were going to be BORING  and bring on a pitcher that can THROW STRIKES.

Nah, what fun is that? Why not put a guy on the mound that has trouble with control? That can't find the plate? Cause we all know that's WAY  more fun.

Okay, Mr. Huntington sir. I get the "nothing ventured, nothing gained" but I thought, in my little opinionated mind, that KERRIGAN HAS PLENTY TO DO WITH THE GUYS WE ALREADY HAVE. Why bring him yet another challenge? WHY?

Man oh man. I need a few minutes here guys. And a tissue. Someone cough so they can't hear me sobbing.

MLB.Com-LAS VEGAS -- The Rays addressed the need to improve their offense Wednesday night, when they traded right-hander Edwin Jackson to the Tigers for left-handed-hitting outfielder Matt Joyce.

No Joyce in Pittsburgh.

I think taking a shot at Veal is a good choice.

My question is whether it better to keep Bloom instead of Davidson, Chavez, Barthmaier, Bautista ?

Bloom really started to come on in his last two months at Altoona and then followed that up with a good showing in the HWL.  

POH- Strong POKE here.  I would guess that Kerrigan is holding a seminar on pitching accuracy and what is another person attending?

Also, I looked at his minor League stats, he got shelled in the early part of last season, but pitched like a possessed saint towards the end of AA ball.  8 real good starts, 10 "hit the bull, win a steak" AA games.

A lot of people have posted great dissatisfaction the past few days with the fact the PIrates have basically only made a handful of lateral moves.  I'd like to know what people were expecting - that we'd be bidding for Sabathia?  Texiera?  Trading Ronnie Paulino for Joe Mauer?  NH and DK (and Ken Rosenthal, and Peter Gammons, and Jason Stark, etc. etc.) have all said they have never seen Winter Meetings this inactive.  Really, no one has done much of anything.  Okay, CC gets $160 contract.  Now the Yankees have 3 guys - Jeter, A Rod, CC - with contracts totalling over a HALF BILLION dollars.  What moves do you want to see made?  REALISTICALLY.  Not Andy for A Rod and the Yanks pick up the salary difference.  It's not a great market for FA's to begin with, and you can't expect to get a Brian Giles for Ricardo Rincon trade every year.

I notice everyone returning to the fact that Veal was the minor league pitcher of the year 2 years ago for the cubs.......wasn't JVB the minor league pitcher of the Pirates......similiar numbers hopefully he can produce like JVB does

Baydude: Thanks for the greeting. But I'm going back to my long winter's nap after this post. And by the way: Give me Chuck Heston, because we need a miracle of Hollywood proportions.

At any rate, happy holidays to all of us on the Pirate Ship To Nowhere. A little holiday cheer, from me to you:

Death knells ring, are you listenin'?

Pirate fans, already bristlin'.

No hope in sight,

Unhappy tonight,

Bob Walkin' in Winter Meetings Wonderland.

Gone away, X and JBay

Here to stay, LaRoches A.

Stumbling along,

A lousy 40-man throng,

Bob Walkin' in Winter Meetings Wonderland.

ChestNutting's gang, they'll build us a snow job,

And pretend that we will one day win.

Then we'll watch Wilson traded, then say, 'No man!'

Again you've wasted talent ... what a sin.

So ChestNutting's gang, they'll conspire,

To field a team, with no fire.

And lose again next spring,

In a too-familar ring.

Bob Walkin' in Winter Meetings Wonderland.

God bless us, we of blind faith. Have a safe, happy holiday season, and I'll see you in the spring.

"WTM - ok, understand upside, but are we strong enough to give up talent?"

Well, I don't see it as Veal vs. Bloom.  I'd rather have both.  I'd have protected Bloom and either DFA'd Dave Davidson or released Denny Bautista, preferably the latter.

Veal is exactly the type of choice the Pirates should be making.  He was the Cubs number 2 prospect going into 2007 and number 6 prospect going into this year.  Apparently he has ace stuff, but he just has a Dontrelle Willis-like delivery that causes him to lose his command if it gets out of whack.  If the Pirates pitching coaches can get his delivery straightened out, then we have a potential ace on our hands.  If not, then they just send him back.  Also, remember that it's fairly likely that Bloom won't stick with the Tigers and will be offered back in Spring Training.  

@ PoH <<Oh goodie! And here I thought the Pirates were going to be BORING  and bring on a pitcher that can THROW STRIKES.>>

It may be fun watching ..."Wild Thing" Vaughn.... I mean Veal....

Cue up the song.... WILD THING...

1swing3 - Good point on Bloom.  The Tigers expect to contend - they can't afford to carry a pitcher who won't contribute very long into the season.

Who will have more walks this year?

Hansen

Veal

Bautista

I know this is late but I just now read the article about jogging ronny - that made my day right there.  No more watching him watch a pop fly drop 5 feet away from him, no more seeing him get thrown out by a mile at home plate - and smile about it afterward!  

As for how worked up everyone is getting over this Rule 5 stuff - Evan Meek anyone?  

NH wants guys with power arms.  Unless one of us here is also a baseball scout and saw both of these guys pitch in person last year, who can really say which is better, or will be better.

Whoever said the Bay trade was for prospects that good teams had given up on - I think you're wrong.  Out of those 4 guys right now, based on what I've seen, yeah I'd say Andy Laroche..how was this guy ever rated highly.  But the other 3 all have upside.  Keep in mind, just like with the Nady trade, the highest regard prospect was at the lowest rung of the ladder, experience wise.  Wait and see what Morris does a few years down the road.

Diehard - I voluntarily remove myself from your "a lot of people" clumping. While I hoped NH at least ASKED about Pujols, I knew we wouldn't get that caliber for either what we have to give or spend or both.

My only comment today is that we got a pitcher with control issues. That's like having a veterinarian allergic to cats. It seems not right to me. That's just how I roll, yo.

Srsly.

@Gib--

Comments on your post!

1. We did not dump Bay and Nady for nobody, we got back talent, not proven talent yet, but a trade worth making. We could dump the whole team, we did not win with any of them, if you take the Bay/Nady approach, none of us were prevy to what Huntington was offered for any of these players, so if we think we could have done better, it would only be a guess.

2. You get one of the top 2 players in the draft, doesn't matter how you get him, you got him. Have you actually seen the fat kid, I had not heard of his body fat problem?

3. On number 3, Jack Wilson I am 100% with you.

4. At this point Sanchez is the best be have for 2nd base and the best we are going to get for the time being, our minor league system is thin in this area, Ford is still 1-2 years away. We probably will give him away for nothing.

5. Our accomplishments at the winter meeting have been very little and that is good. Not bad. The new management wanted to go with building from within, they got a good start on that this summer, they just need to continue on that course, keep the veterans they have, they are not going to bring you that much anyhow, but they will help solidify a starting lineup for now.

I

Diehard - I wanted to echo your thoughts.  Was anyone really expecting the Pirates to be making a 'major' move this week?  this is what the other 22 have-nots in baseball do at winter meetings: talk to 5th starters and utility infielders, that's the reality.  

WTM - agree, I'd rather have them both too, you never know about leftys as to when the lightbulb will come on.

TheWU420, Hansen, cause I think he's out of options, from the sounds of DKs comment, they are still pondering whether to tender Bautista

Power arms are nice....but not if you throw 100 mph balls helps to throw strikes

Diehard -- I think you could have predicted a strong negative reaction to anything that the Pirates would do, especially from folks who are only here for special occasions to take out their frustrations over so many losing seasons.  

uglyken, PoH:  Left comments for you on the "old" baseball thread...  Just fyi.

POH - You do not fit the generilzation of "a lot of people" in any respect.  You are definitely one of a kind.   :)

@UK--<<It may be fun watching ..."Wild Thing" Vaughn.... I mean Veal....>>

Maybe Veal will knock out the Pirate Parrot...

Barry Bonds is still available, at minimum league salary, and could ding at least 20 home runs in 2009, finish with his original team and get his 3000th hit.

Don't give me the b.s. we're "too proud" of an organization to accept Bonds back. I would sign him in a heartbeat. Attendance and season ticket sales would soar.

Hey, since the Pirates are in the nickel-and-dime mode, why not? Make perfect sense.

BK

Or maybe Veal will pitch like Veale

AAhhh. I can see it now.....

Veal gets called up and promptly serves up a moon shot to Pujols... Doumit goes out to the mound....

Doumit - "Don't sweat it, there's a lot of parks that ball wouldn't have gone out in."

Veal - "Name one"

Doumit - "Yellowstone....."

can "Wild thing" be the theme song of the 2009 pirates?  

Or "bernie, Bernie" with al the ex-indians.

@Larry--<Barry Bonds is still available>>

Hopefully IMHO this idiot is sitting behind bars.

Larry Z - It's been beaten to death at times about Bonds.  He can't play the outfield anymore - especially not one as spacious as PNC, and he's never had the arm to play RF.  Now if he's dropped a few pounds, gotten some flexibility , and learned to play 1B...

Larry

It not pride, it's the clubhouse cancer

Essentially Veale is like the Adam Dunn of pitching.   We are getting closer to signing Adam!

Clement signed with Bluejays, was hoping he'd stay in the area

@Matt--Was anyone really expecting the Pirates to be making a 'major' move this week?  this is what the other 22 have-nots in baseball do at winter meetings: talk to 5th starters and utility infielders, that's the reality.  

There is another way of looking at the Pirates in the the winter meetings, if you are only looking for 1 pitcher and a corner outfielder, it must tell us that we don't need much.

One think it does tell us is this, we would have to get a blue chip player to do better than what we have, and that guy is going to cost more than the Pirates and their FANS want to pay.

I don't know what all the fuss is about Bloom being drafted. He is not MLB ready. There is no way he sticks on the MLB roster of the Tigers. Before it is all said and done, he will be back in the Pirates organization, unless we work out a trade with them like we did with Meek.

@JAL--<Veal will pitch like Veale>

Could we be that lucky?

Barry Bonds........lol.....he'll never play another game for anyone ever again; and that is how it should be. Unrepentant cheaters should never be rewarded, nor given a second chance.

Well, no deal for Matt Clement, he signed minor league deal with blue jays

Veal = Ollie II with pitching sense.

Veal = Ollie II with pitching sense.

Veal = Ollie II with pitching sense.

Call me crazy, but I was really hoping Nuck Punto's name would have been mentioned by our brain trust this week. Oh well.....

I did not hear anyone on these posts ever talk about Bloom before, how did he get so popular and good all of a sudden?

I know we had talked about a lot of our prospects in the winter leagues, but that is not against major league competition.

i am not that upset about losing Bloom. He is 25 and he can't even dominate  A or AA hitters what is going to happen when he faces the big league hitters.  

www.baseballamerica.com/.../player.php

@JHadar - <I think you could have predicted a strong negative reaction to anything that the Pirates would do, especially from folks who are only here for special occasions to take out their frustrations over so many losing seasons.  >

You are right. These people come crawling out of the woodwork and start putting down the Pirates only on certain occasions. You will never satisfy these people. If the Pirates pull a Tampa Bay this year and get to the series, they will either come back and say they supported the Bucs from the beginning and they liked all the moves, or, they will stil complain because the Pirates did not win enough games.

leadoff - my uneducated guess is that when Pirates fans see a low ERA and low walk ratio, we get all "ohhhh." Like starving kids when the ice cream truck slows down on our street.

It can often be explained away, apparently. All I wanted to know was why Bloom wasn't n the 40 with an ERA under two. The answer was he was outpitching his level, but didn't have promise to pitch at the next or the next after that. I can roll with that.

te <<If the Pirates pull a Tampa Bay this year and get to the series, they will either come back and say they supported the Bucs from the beginning and they liked all the moves, or, they will stil complain because the Pirates did not win enough games. >>

Yes....bandwagon or bust...

If you think there is anger now.....wait until the Pirates sign the "Vet Starting Pitcher" they need......Jeff D'amico, Jimmy Anderson and Matt Morris are available....

Let's put Bloom in perspective. He did good in Winterball. Other tahn that, he was not what you would call an untouchable prospect.

If everyone thinks about it, Jose Castillo was killing the ball in the winter leagues in Latin America and he was playing RF. As soon as he went against major league pitching, he did not do as good.

Bloom needs to dominate against MLB players before we start crying about losing him.

and I don't think its people are *** about veal over bloom....just why not keep bloom and draft veal there are roster spots open worse case scenerio take someone else off the 40 man

Since the Pirates are talking about non-tendering Bautista, then they should have removed him and kept Bloom. Unless they know something about Bloom that we don't.

NH discusses the lack of organizational depth but yet we lose someone via rule 5.....

I can't help but feel like I'm lumped into that "people who only stop by on special occasions," but i'm always here, just reading away since i usually can't ever be the first to post something. Oh, the agony.

@ TheWu420 <<If you think there is anger now>>

Anger? What has happened (or not) at the WM that has made people angry. These are very small deals that only warrant modest conversation; or is it that we have only made small deals? Management has already said that we weren’t going to be a major player this week.

TWU420

It is impossible to protect every player.  There were others available that no one took ,like Jamie Romak.  Losing one player, who may not be lost, is hardly depleting  the depth.  One went and they picked up 4 and if Tigers do not keep Bloom on the MLB team all season he comes back just as Veal goes back to the Cubs if the Pirates do not keep him all season.

TW40 << NH discusses the lack of organizational depth but yet we lose someone via rule 5..... >>

And pick up two -- filling up the 40 man, and a FA.  You are going to solve organizational depth through the draft (mainly), Latin American scouting, and just occasionally by making an unpopular trade of a MLB player for a bunch of unproven prospects.  

I had never heard of Kyle Bloom before today.  I wonder how many others who think the world has ended had either.

Yotum -- Actually I've seen you here before.  Obviously, I was generalizing and no specific individual was intended.

Poh-

I wasn't advocating that Bloom wasn't any good, in fact I think he may develop yet, however, he wasn't going to crack the Pirates AAA or Major league rosters for a long time.

The fact that his ERA isn't that good against AA and A rosters makes you wonder just how bad is the Detroit pitching staff that they think he has a chance to stay on the parent club. I guess our only fear is that we didn't give away another Young, we will never live that one down.

Are we are really this upset over a 25 year old AA pitcher who had one shining moment?  I know pitching is really thin in baseball, but ocme on.  Bloom was not tagged as a guarantee AAA player this year, so even if we kept him and he excelled at Altoona, next year at Nashville, and then we have a 28 year old rookie.  How could we have let him go?

Limited potential = Limited Loss.

Let it go, people.  

Also, we still have Jack, Freddy, Adam, etc. so no panicked moves by management yet.  Hopefully, NH and FC will keep calm and not get fleeced as we are expecting.  

Keep those chins up.  We only have a few more months til the season starts.

Yotum

I recognize you--don't have you lumped into the special occasions group

Hey, Gang, we're an asylum, we have to get angry about something, don't we?

I'll reserve all judgement until I actually watch people play/ read what DK says when watching them play.  Give me the whole product to look at over a large sample period.

Oddly enough that last statement scares me -- I do testing on medical devices and that's been the rationale that I have for everything I do... scary how that logic has slowly crept into everything else I do...

I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong, but I also don't want to de-value my opinion by reactionary posts.

@Yotum

You're a regular guy.

Hope all the new folks become regulars too.

Various viewpoints are the lifeblood of the Asylum.

And while we're at it, what do really think the odds are that Bloom or Veal or Santos will actually make the 25-man roster and stick through the whole season next year.

Maybe there's an Evan Meek pick-up in the bunch, but I sort of doubt it.

@JH - I'd like to see one of them have *success* like Meek did.  It would be nicer to see production happen at the majors, but working out a trade wouldn't hurt either.

This blog has me itching for baseball... I KNEW this would happen!

As long as we have a starting rotation that gets ahead in the count, doesn't need a mound visit in the first inning, and at least 3/5 of them throw inside for strikes, I'll be happy.

If we get Detroit's first base coach, I'll be REALLY happy, but that's another matter.

There is only thing I can say that I find mildly annoying about losing this bloom guy, who yes - until today I'll admit I had never heard of.

If a guy is expendable enough to leave unprotected, then why use up one of your slots in a winter ball league for him?  I ask that because I seem to recall some talk back when Alvarez was signed, signed, then re-signed, about how he couldn't play winterball because all the 'available' slots had been allocated.

If that's the case, why allocate a guy you're prepared to lose?  Not a major annoyance..just a minor one.

By the way - has anyone heard from Chris Duffy yet?  Did he find himself a good american cheeseburger and a bottle of aquifina back here in the estados unidos?

@JH <<Maybe there's an Evan Meek pick-up in the bunch, but I sort of doubt it.>>

My money is on everyone goes back where they started, or follow up deals are made to allow them to be sent back down to the minors (like Meek).

@ JHadar -  I don't think that Veal or Santos will have any trouble sticking with the Pirates. I don't think the Pirates will be good this year unless their pitching improves dramatically from last year and they hit better than they did after the deadline last year. I think too much needs to happen for the Pirates to be competative in 09.

the trade you are referring to i agree dumping paulino but for another catcher is puzzling why not go for the SS that was rumored....is this catcher they received going to be that much superior to robinson diaz (I don't know much about either to be honest)

Afternoon Links

New Agent in the game

latimesblogs.latimes.com/.../saberhagen-join.html

Not the Next Baseball Commissioner

www.google.com/.../ALeqM5iiaOM91WYUYTrLMWeMNuDuyB43Pg

Angels Interested in Peavy

losangeles.angels.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

Yankees Acquire 2008 AL All-Star Team  :)

bleacherreport.com/.../91866-breaking-news-new-york-yankees-acquire-2008-al-all-star-team

News on Teixeira:

www.boston.com/.../where_the_conte.html

@TheWu420 <<why not go for the SS that was rumored>>

Our team is not good enough to worry about the specific positions. We need an infusion of talent. When the chip that you are offering is someone like paulino; hated by Pirate fans everywhere, who didn’t impress his coaches, and didn’t want to play for us…..well you get what you can, but you get something. My understanding is that we took the offer with the most talent.

@pEktaS wrote re: Winter Meetings, Day 4: Pirates 'very, very close' with Vazquez; select pitcher in Rule 5 but lose Bloom

on Dec 11, 2008 12:47 PM

"is it jsut me or going by stats alone it looks liek the pirates are tryuing to get worse through the r5 draft?

we give up a 4 to 1.5 era guy for a 4 - 10 era guy

bloom seems to go the right direction new guy seems to fit the pirates well i guess"

===================

Veal has power which is something this regime ahs stated they want.  Is it an upgrade? only if he learns where the plate is.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Bloom has been spoken about before.  He may have a future or may not.  He is a contact pitcher which we have quite a few of. Should we have kept him on the 40 man so as not to lose him.  Yes, unless there are still things in the works that we are not aware of.  Why? because he is left handed and we all know everyone covets left handed pichers.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The infield moves.  Oh Hum nothing major and we will see if anything works out.  Not a game changer in the bunch.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Boy I can't wait to hear what NuttH has to say about all this.  Should be quite a show.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Still time for things to happen before ST.  So let's keep our heads about ourselves and see what if anything happens. I am not feeling like anything that has been done is and overall upgrade so far. Like I have to remind myself ST is not here yet. So I am holding out some HOPE.

IMO for PBC to be competetive in 09, rest of NL Central has to come to us, I don't think we will make a quantum leap to their level.  Any word on Peavy and Cubs?

Irate --  I agree on pitching -- if we'd had pitching early, we'd probably still have Bay and maybe Nady, too.  

Wu420 -- I think the fact that our mgr is familiar with the new catcher plays into the decision, and he does look better than Diaz at first glance.

if you say so but i would hate to go through a year with bix or cruz roaming SS.....

@Bizrow--

Peavy deal off with the Cubs, Padre people left Vegas, going back to San Diego to decide what to do.

Peavy would be a perfect fit in Pittsburgh, age, talent, right handed and experienced, I would give up one of our Blue Chips for him, probably any one of them, his salary isn't that bad for a N0. 1 pitcher.

Is it just me or does "Donnie Veal" sound like the name of a mob hitman?

ya all we'd have to give up is doumit mclouth and pedro alvarez for peavy

I dont know about y'all ( and I would like to see if anyone agrees with me), but I am not ashamed at all of how our brain trust operated at these meetings.

They set their price, and stuck with it.

They listened to all offers, and went with none of them (except Paulino, who really needed to go)

They accomplished what they wanted to

They did not make any stupid moves

They did not get walked on by anyone... which is more than we could have said a number of years ago

No, we didnt sign CC... but were we really going to end up with a big name free agent? Those dont work half the time anyway (Barry Zito??, Andruw Jones???)

I'd rather have JW than two crappy prospects (not good, crappy)

I believe our management did a good job... anyone?

When I've seen Bloom pitch, it looks like he has no clue where the ball is going to go and batters can wait him out for a grooved strike or simply take a walk. He looks like a pitcher, he really does, but the results might not improve because of his hard-to-repeat windup.

I'm amazed at people freaking out over these minor moves!!!!

We will not see another major infusion of talent until the 2009 June draft (hopefully). Nobody currently on the trading block is going to bring much in return. You might as well get used to minor moves because that is going to be the norm. Only the "Big 4" would yield much in return and they are unlikely to be traded. For the next few years, the only real options for upgrading the talent level is the draft and the international market. Anyone the Pirates get from free agency is unlikely to be a great talent or suddenly blossom.

leadoff

Regarding your post on Kyle Bloom of 2:21pm.

FYI

I mentioned Kyle Bloom favorably in my post on 10/9 at 9:50AM and on 10/11 at 12:22PM if you care to check the archives.

CullenH:

I agree that not getting rolled over in the meetings is a good thing.

At some point the pointing and laughing at the Pirates organization has to stop. It stops with winning.

Same old Pirates..., nothing has really changed.

The other teams trade for and/or sign good players while the Pirates are talking about Veal and Vazquez.

I would like to keep Jack Wilson for the Pirates, but I think he deserves a better faith than staying in this lowly, lowly franchise.

I am sure Mr. Cheap Owner is just glad N.H. did not throw any of his money away to acquire good players that could turn this sorry franchise into a respectable one.

PoH

Agreed.

And winning starts by doing exactly what they did

@CA Pirate: agree, completely. Though it's ok to go crazy over a small move. That's all we get... You are right on, though...

ok so if Jack gets traded it will be to Dodgers, but that won't happen because the Dodgers won't part with any top prospects. also why sign Vazquez???? and why not resign Mientkeciwz last year he was about the only guy that even looked like he wanted to win sometimes and that kid they took in the Rule 5 Draft you know will start the year with the big club (just like they did with Meek so they wouldn't lose him) hopefully he'll do better then Meek did, and hopefully he'll at least be able to throw strikes and even though all we got as a back-up catcher i am glad to see Paulino traded he was an over-weight lazy underachieving catcher and went from being maybe our most promising young player to a major bum! and hopefully Doumit,McLouth,and or Maholm is signed long term this offseason because if we do that at least we will have accomplished something productive this off season

@Marty

The Pirates want to re-sign Doug... dont doubt it for a second.

But he wants to be a starter. The PBC is honest with him and says, "That may not happen here". So he goes to the open market. I believe Doug has as good of a chance as anyone to resign with the Pirates. But he will first explore other options.

If he really wants to start, let him look for an opportunity. He does deserve a chance to look...

They want to resign Mientkeciwz--have been talking.

It seems to me that we didn't come out of the meetings badly.  NH said not to expect much...no big FA's coming this way or anything like that.  

I love that NH didn't back down and I agree that I hope other teams got the message that the Pirates are no longer the MLB's farm team.

I'm not sad about Paulino going...far from it...and I'll wait to see about the others.

@Marty...I think they're looking at Vazquez to replace Gomez or Rivas, not Doug.  

I think we all overlooked one very important detail regarding Veal.  

Follow me now.  He came from the Cubs.  There had to be input from the Cubs scouts regarding Veal's performance.

DAVE LITTLEFIELD is a Cubs scout.

My perfect karma.  Veal become an immediate version of Johann Santana and strikes out Aramis Ramirez every time they face each other.

Yes ladies and gents, we have a secret weapon, my other half, Dave Littlefield.

couple of thoughts about todays discussions: <Tanner> I think this is being way too overthought, it is a Yogi Berra statement: throw all circumstances into the mix and all teams split 2/3rds of the games its what you do with the other third, sounds pretty simple and funny to me.

remmebr kyle is not a lock to stay on that team for the whole year, the Tigers are in a win now attitutde and if things are tight in the win loss area they will not keep him just to keep him.  Remember who his manager is, Jim is not going to sit idly hiding a roster spot in the bull pen and lose a game because he did not have the pitcher he wanted.  We have to think they gambled that he is not ready to make the jump next year for the whole year.

DFlash02 - You test medical devices?  Boy, are you in the right place.  When do the new electro-shock machines come out?  You may have enough people here for a good sample size.

well i hope we resign Doug because Andy LaRoche is awful and i would rahter play Doug at third untill Walker is ready for the majors and i still hope we resign Doumit,McLouth,and Maholm long term but since tomorrow nights the deadline for arbitration players i think if any of the 3 will be signed long term it will be by tomorrow night

I think the best thing that happened this week was that very little happened. As much as I have advocated moving Jack and Freddie , I never wanted to give them away and Neal fulfilled that wish. We got rid of a useless catcher for someone JR apparently likes. That is important. Yes, Joe Kerrigan has his hands full helping most of the staff locate home plate but, as one of you noted, one more can't hurt. Vasquez can't hurt if he is indeed signed. As far as signing Doug and Ramon what better bench for a group of young starters than a group of veterans. Yes Kyle Bloom was a stud in the HWL but he appears to be the typical Littlefield draftee who fades when he faces AAA and above hitters. The

bring back bobby hill

Great point Cave, Littlefield is now in a position to give away someone else's talent.

Wu - ouch

any chicago newspapers or media outlets have anything to say about this kid I didn't find it anything on the sun times website

Previously posted

***********

@JHadar - <I think you could have predicted a strong negative reaction to anything that the Pirates would do, especially from folks who are only here for special occasions to take out their frustrations over so many losing seasons.  >

You are right. These people come crawling out of the woodwork and start putting down the Pirates only on certain occasions. You will never satisfy these people. If the Pirates pull a Tampa Bay this year and get to the series, they will either come back and say they supported the Bucs from the beginning and they liked all the moves, or, they will stil complain because the Pirates did not win enough games.

*************

Just because people don't spend their days writing on the boards doesn't make them any less of a fan. And any fan of ANY team has the right to complain. We support them, watch the games, buy the tickets and merchandise (eg. pay their salaries), and occasionally expect the club to at least make an attempt to put a winning team on the field.

The BIG problem with the Pirates for the past decade is they are ALWAYS in a rebuilding mode, but never build anything! It wasn't too long ago the Pirates had what was condsidered one of if not the BEST minor league system, though the MLB team still stunk. All that talent is now playing for other teams, the MLB team still stinks, and the minor league system is depleated. So we "rebuild" yet again. Why shouldn't real fans complain about "apples for apples" trades and second rate utility pick-ups, whether or not they post on a message board or blog?!

PoH -

Re Veal: >>Oh goodie! And here I thought the Pirates were going to be BORING  and bring on a pitcher that can THROW STRIKES.<<

You seem to overlook the fact that SOMEBODY has to replace John VanBenschoten.

I think we get too carried away with what is going on, talk wise.  Trading Jack Freddy Ronnie should not be our focus, our focus needs to be first base.  ALERT  we will go nowhere anytime if we get a threepeat start from Adam.  

if our pitchers repeat we are in trouble, if we have no defense we are in trouble, if our general offense can not score four or five runs a game, we could be in troubl, if adam threepeats we are dead in the water may first.

If you don't things have improved recall Littlefield's Rule 5 debacle a few years ago.  

It's still a ways til spring training, and maybe there are still some irons in the fire.

So the yankees have half a billion tied up in payroll promises.  When are the owners going to get some gumption and enact a reasonable salary cap?  Oh, well -- what will the luxury tax be next year?

I know it's a little early for all the new assistant GM's to have much of an impact, but it seems like all these ballplayers we pick up have either a Cleveland cnnnection (NH) or a Philly connection (JR).  Even dumping Joggin' Ronnie (not that I'm complaining) was a Philly connection.  Are they there to say, "you guys are right, Cleveland and Philly do have all the best players " or does it demonstrate there is a crying need for these guys so we don't just get Cleveland and Philly players or is it that no one but Cleveland and Philly will "play" with us?  Just sayin'

Krag -- You certainly have a right to complain as I acknowledged when I spoke of "taking out frustrations"

Many of the complaints are about 16 years of losing and not about the deals that were made.  

I've been following the Bucs since 1957 -- so if your reference to "real fans" included only those who complain, then you are in error.

My personal belief is that current management will make this club better -- that what a lot of people want, a big name star or two and more payroll right now, is not the long term answer -- that Littlefield and McClatchy and before that Bonifay not only broke the Major League Club, but they shattered the organization from top to bottom.  By building up the farm system, increasing scouting, going to Latin America, creating a core, and doing the things that work we will eventually have a team that wins year after year instead of the one glory year model that so many (perhaps unwittingly) advocate.  

The past is past, and we finally have some people in here who are at least competent.  Some people want to scapegoat management and that's fine -- but you're blaming the people who are trying to get us out of this mess -- not the ones that put us there.  

We have discussed this here at quite a bit of length for quite awhile and then we trade back-up catchers and a whole bunch of new people turn up yelling that the sky is falling.  It's your opinion and you're entitled to it.  

@ JJ <<adam threepeats>>

I agree with that, he can single handedly kill any chance at a good start; no single pitcher can do that, it would take several like last year.

On the other hand, if he hits like it’s August, and the pitchers avoid a repeat of last year’s debacle, then we have a real shot at breaking that stupid streak.

Arriba<Just sayin>  It does look suspicious.  They all have come with some experience with each one from either of thosse two organizations.  I think it is a statement that says they are putting thier necks out saying we are going with guys we know at this point in each of the examples and therefore we expect scrutiny as they unfold.

These moves have been the minor moves they have made so far.These have been comfort moves.  remember the big moves were with teams outside of the comfort teams.

If LaRoche starts slow again this year which he always does.....he has to be the next one traded by the deadline and pearce would play first dont you think?

@JHadar

I'm not complaining about any trade in particular, especially not one backup catcher for another, nor one AA pitcher for another.

But let's face it, for a team that hasn't gone anywhere for years, few of the moves made provide hope that we're going anywhere better soon. So as fans, again, it's difficult to look forward to much for thenxt few years. And if history repeats, will we start shopping our talent just when they display it?

That said, I'm a Pirates fan. Have been since the early 70's, though I'm born and raised in NY. I watch most of their games (on TV), many with my 11YO son. We cheer when they win, grumble when they lose. But we tune in the next day/night to watch again, regardless.

I was just saying, whether one complains or not, it doesn't make them more or less of a fan.

Krag  <<I was just saying, whether one complains or not, it doesn't make them more or less of a fan.>>

I don't think I ever intended to imply that.

@ cave, much earlier comment. re Littlefield working for Cubs.

So, Veal is the unannounced PTBNL in the Ramirez deal??

BRILLIANT!!!

BTW, after Dandy Dave got fired, a friend of mine was at a little league game, DD, sorry scratch that, there is only one DD, Dandy Dave was liming the field, my friend said he couldn't draw a straight line if his life depended on it.

Same with judging talent?  Sorry DK, I know that horse is beaten, but man, he deserves it.

@ Diehard - Unfortunately I have yet to work with an electro-shock device.  Maybe I can take a few of them, put them together, and develop something to help the asylum... ;)

I'm patient.  Plain and simple, if they execute a well thought-out plan, I won't complain.  This team HAS to win sometime right?

I know a former Nutting-paper employee and he said that the Pirates are run the same way -- do what you can to make people happy, complacent, believing that things are moving forward.  That said, his comment was made during the Pre-proof of Nutting's existence...

I read an article a few days ago about the Royals and Braves doing business. The Royals GM admitted there was a comfort level in trading with Atlanta plus he knew many of the players since he came from Atlanta.

The same will probably be true for HN and JR for awhile but eventually that effect will wear off.

Time to call it a day . . .  I'll try to check in tomorrow.

In the meantime, remember I'm pullin' for ya' -- we're all in this together.

TW420

Pearce at first--doubtful.  Peace can mash a fastball in his wheelhouse but that's all.  Not a complete hitter.  Despite his slow starts Adam always ends up in the upper half of most stats for first basemen.  

Last season he had a bad April but an ok May when hit 5 HR and batted .253.  Actually, his 2nd worst month was not early but late--August, he hit .228 with 3 HR.

I think many people also see Adam as a problem because he has a bad first month.  If he .290 with 5 HR in April and then had a lousy June people would b more likely to say he in a slump.  Because of the poor starts his total contributions are devalued.  

If you needed a 1b and some said you could have one who would hit .270 with 25 HR and 85 RBI I think most people say--ok, that's a pretty solid player.  That's Adam--not the best but far from the worst.

Good  night JH

Just saw DK's note about picking up 3 guys from Latin America in the Rule 5 draft and the other clubs being astounded that we've done the h