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Post-Gazette beat writers Dejan Kovacevic and Chuck Finder blog about the Pittsburgh Baseball Club.

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Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade

By Dejan Kovacevic | 11:35 a.m. Wednesday

LAS VEGAS -- The Pirates and Florida are discussing a deal that would bring shortstop prospect Robert Andino to Pittsburgh. It is not known who might go the other way, but the Marlins long have liked catcher Ronny Paulino, who is on the block.

Andino, 24, batted .206, two home runs, nine RBIs in 44 games for the Marlins last season. He has appeared in 79 career games with a .201 average, but is considered athletic and sound defensively.

UPDATE 11:50 a.m.: Couple other quick things before I go roaming: The final offer the Pirates made to Detroit involving Jack Wilson, sometime late last week, sought from the Tigers shortstop prospect Danny Worth and a top pitching prospect (no name on that one). Money was involved, too, of course. The Tigers are believed never to have formally responded before turning their attention and, ultimately, signing Adam Everett. ... The Pirates and Dodgers, at one point, were closer to a Wilson deal than I previously had thought, certainly on the financial end. The Pirates' asking for a third prospect really seemed to throw this one out of whack.

1:34 p.m.: Still no confirmation on the potential return to Florida, but Andino's name is coming up quite a bit. And, really, that is about it so far today. What most everyone here seems to agree on is that trades are going to take a back seat to free agents, and free agents are going to take a lot longer than usual to sort out because of teams' position that the economy is forcing them to be cautious. John Grabow is a terrific example. There are 29 other teams that would welcome having Grabow in their bullpen, but they are not going to give up a prospect or two if they can just sign someone out of free agency.

1:39 p.m.: Baltimore never inquired about Wilson, to my knowledge, but the Orioles can be crossed off the need-a-shortstop list with the imminent signing of old friend Cesar Izturis.

2:19 p.m.: Josh Wilson, the utilityman who still has many followers in his native Mt. Lebanon, signed a minor league deal with Arizona.

4:44 p.m.: Paul Cobbe, Ryan Doumit's agent, has a meeting with the Pirates later tonight. The team recently approached Doumit with an offer to extend his contract, and all the people who do the negotiating are under this roof. Seems highly unlikely something could get settled quickly.

4:53 p.m.: This Andino/Marlins thing looks as if it might not advance past the talking stage. Paulino did, in fact, come up in the discussions. But one official expressed skepticism that something could get done. In general, the most important thing I can tell you today is that all anyone is talking about is how quiet everything is, the Pirates included. There have been only a couple of trades made, as well as just a couple signings, notably CC's deal. But everyone seems to be sitting back, holding back, waiting to see how the free-agent market shapes up before deciding if they are better off dealing with trades. And, even there, no one wants to give up prospects because everyone -- except the Yankees -- wants to be Tampa Bay. ... The Pirates are having "some good conversations," a team official told me without specifics, but he, too, sounded doubtful that anything was imminent.

5:56 p.m.: Posting will be light for a good while here, and not just because the Pirates are making no moves. Neal Huntington's media session is in a half-hour, followed closely by one with John Russell.

7:01 p.m.: Huntington, in his media session, that the Pirates are likely to make a trade that he twice described as "something small" and "not headline-grabbing." Sounds like a minor league swap. That might be about it here.

7:05 p.m.: Other highlights from that session, in brief: Huntington acknowledged getting "lots of hits" on his big four of Nate McLouth, Paul Maholm, Matt Capps and Doumit, but it was plenty clear from his tone that these were nothing more than one-way inquiries that did not get far. ... He also hinted that there was one free-agent target that might turn into something but acknowledged other teams were "on this player," too. All I know is the reference was not to David Eckstein. ... The Pirates are down to two players they are certain they would take when they choose fourth overall in the Rule 5 draft tomorrow, so it is no slam dunk that someone will be claimed. ... Raul Chavez refused his outright assignment to Indianapolis and declared himself a free agent. But Huntington would like to bring Chavez and Jason Davis back.

8:09 p.m.: Huntington, Russell media sessions have their own post above.

9:03 p.m.: Joe Frisaro reports on MLB.com's Hot Stove Blog that Brian Bixler could be the Pirates player heading to Florida for Andino. Not independently confirmed. And might not happen at all. The Marlins just indicated that they, too, could make a "minor move" but also stressed that they might not.


Posted Dec 10 2008, 11:35 AM by Dejan Kovacevic

Comments

DFlash02 wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 12:02 PM

I keep getting the sinking feeling that we're missing out on some good players...

madturk2008 wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 12:13 PM

@DFlash02

Can one miss what one never had?

DFlash02 wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 12:16 PM

Um... yea.  I could definitely miss one that was never had...

Regardless of the validity of the Ryan Howard rumors, I miss the chance of having him on our team even if the deal never existed... if... that... makes any sense...

Jimbo Slice wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 12:17 PM

I wouldn't necessarily say missing out on good players, I mean unless Larish or Joyce were coming over from Detroit no biggie.  I'd say ditto that on Delwyn Young and Chin lung Hu.  In the same respect, take what you can get.  It isn't like Wilson is a critical piece to the future of this team.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 12:26 PM

*Yawn*

pierogisnat wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 12:27 PM

So is it just me or does this kid kind of remind you of a young Jack Wilson?  Although he's had limited MLB action, he seems to be very light hitting but certainly not a liability in the field, which would be an upgrade over Bix.

Plus, if Paulino is indeed who we give up, I'd be all for it - Paulino is a backup here and wasn't even an everyday one last year, whereas Andino will play every day for us (assuming a Jack and/or Freddie end up in other colors this year)  and has a shot of being a piece for the long term, as Paulino obviously doesn't as Doumit is well ahead of him on the depth chart.

But who knows, this may all be DK getting us all riled up again...hahaha

DFlash02 wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 12:29 PM

If NH realizes that he's not going to hit on all the prospects, wouldn't the idea be to get the largest quantity of good quality rather than try to get a few great players?  I understand you want great players, but our players aren't going to get that kind of return...

pierogisnat wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 12:30 PM

PS - he hit .256 in AAA last year so I wouldn't expect much out him, at least average wise.  He did have 8 home runs though, so maybe we can get him to hit 4 or 5 a year here, who knows?

phillyjake wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 12:32 PM

Luca is the upscale restaraunt.  LuLu's is the Chinese place.  There's also a Indian store that sells food from People's Indian in Friendship.

The coffee place is Kiva Han.  There's a second one in Oakland and one in Bloomfield, near Tessaro's.

lethalshine wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 12:35 PM

For the Pirates not to be close trading Jack anywhere, they are doing a lot of shopping for a MLB ready shortstop it seems.  I guess if we pick up a shortstop then the asking price for Jack will come down.  I would have traded Jack for Hu and Young without the 3rd prospect, Hu will be an equal on D and and better than Jack on O eventually plus you get Young. Guess that is why I am not GM

Jimbo Slice wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 12:37 PM

Fact or fiction, if the Succos signed Eckstein and traded for Andino, they'd have the WEAKEST hitting middle infield in the major leagues?

DFlash02 wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 12:42 PM

Faction - it would be close... but it's not like Jack and Freddy lit it up this year either...

LarryZ wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 12:45 PM

Is it the general consensus here that Jack Wilson could never come close to hit 200 hit season of 2004?  Is he completely past his prime?  I'm not sure. But his 2009 salary is a good deal if he can guarantee anywhere near a 200 hit season.  

The guy from the Marlins looks decent. More power and better base stealing and 5 years younger. Playing behind Hanley Ramirez ... it is tough to see any time.

leadoff wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 12:52 PM

The guy from the Marlins isn't in Bixler's class, Paulino is a player dump.

Jacks production, as I have said many times, JACK HIT IN THE 8TH SPOT, WHO IN MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL HITS ANY BETTER IN THE 8TH SPOT. There might be someone but not many, when he hit in the 2nd spot he hit well.

Freddie should hit in the 8th spot because you can't pitch around him, he won't let you!!!!

BillyKidd wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 1:08 PM

I can not sit out any longer....

Andino, Not sure how he projects through a full season. Tough sell at his current numbers...barely over the Mendoza line.

If he cannot project better than Tweedle Dumb or Tweedle Dee (Jack and Freddy) We need to keep them and try for a better deal or let them play out 09.

JHadar wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 1:08 PM

Some stats were misquoted earlier. The .258 BA is cumulative, not last year:

Andino in the minors

minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi

in the majors

www.baseball-reference.com/.../andinro01.shtml

Only 144 MLB AB's, .258 in the minors -- but hitting improving with age .287 at Albuquerque last year and .278 in 2007; OPB .356 in 2008 and .322 in 2007; SLG .497 and .428 in 2007.

BuccoNation wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 1:08 PM

Zach Duke's name is coming up now..... Send em both! (for more than Andino of course)

WTM wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 1:11 PM

Albuquerque hitting stats should be viewed with extreme suspicion.

DFlash02 wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 1:13 PM

Oddly, I'd hate to see Duke go.  I want to see him fight it out and be a good pitcher... for the Bucs.

BillyKidd wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 1:21 PM

Hey Bucco! Billy here...

Where are you getting the ZD reports from?

Bizrow wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 1:21 PM

Per MLB Trade Rumors - Andino is out of options and Marlins manager Fredi Gonzalez has publicly admired Paulino.

Bucco Nation, where did you see Zacks name?  With Marlins trade?

DFlash, with our luck, if he stays here, he breaks down, gets traded he turns into Cy Young

Meds are a terrible thng to waste......  Will go to percodan

BuccoNation wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 1:23 PM

@Flash,

I hear you, I kind of feel the same way... but on the other hand, how long can you wait for him to get back to those '05 numbers? I say if the deal is there we send em.

BuccoNation wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 1:23 PM

Billy,

TIOPS... not sure if I can link from here or not. I'm sure most of you know the site though.

uglyken wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 1:23 PM

@ DFlash02  <<Oddly, I'd hate to see Duke go.  I want to see him fight it out and be a good pitcher... for the Bucs.>>

He showed some progress toward returning to prior form; Duke fulfilling his potential is far better than any return that anyone at these meetings are likely to offer.

Kragbax wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 1:24 PM

We should be packaging up most all of our pitchers and see if we can get a couple boxes of cotton candy and maybe a case of beer for em. Probably asking too much though. We'd end up of course paying the salaries and instead taking a few bags of popcorn in place of the cotton candy. Keep Maholm, shop the rest, especially Duke.

DFlash02 wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 1:24 PM

@Bizrow -- Sad but true...

Lee Tunnell wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 1:25 PM
BuccoNation wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 1:28 PM

@ Lee...

MLBTR had something about the Cards eyeing up The Mad Capper too...

Bizrow wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 1:28 PM

BTW, based on DKs answer to last Q&A, I'm pretty sure I know what he put under the tree in the asylum for us for XMas - straight jackets.

Thats good, mine is getting kinda ratty

SirLochsby wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 1:31 PM

Aaron freakin Heilman?  Run. Run away. Run away _fast._  Being out in Philly, I've seen him throw against the Phillies repeatedly, and it always warms my heart to see him enter the game... It would scare me to see him in black and gold.

lost_zero wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 1:37 PM

Doesn't it seem like Aaron Heilman and Melky Cabrera are the two guys that have been mentioned in every trade rumor for the past 8 years?

I swear I'm going to look up one day, these guys will be 32 and the New York media will still be spinning them as up-and-coming prospects.

Chicken on the Hill with Will wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 1:43 PM

In terms of moving Duke, what are you going to get for him? I think it's better to wait and see whether he found his rhythm last September and can build on that rather than trading him now for Buddy Ryan's proverbial warm six-pack. Would also seem inconsistent with NH's goal of wanting to trade players while they are at peak value.

DMac wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 1:43 PM

I'd kinda like to see Duke stay...Snell, they can send away, but that's me.  

I would really not like to see Capps go either.

Good to see you back, BK!

BillyKidd wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 1:44 PM

@Krag--<We should be packaging up most all of our pitchers and see if we can get a couple boxes of cotton candy and maybe a case of beer for em>

What ever you are sniffing or huffing please stop...Admittedly they struggled the first half of the season, mightly. But they pitched very well in the 2nd half. (JAL stats please) What happened was that the had absolutely no run support after the trades and acquisitions. Most of AdLa's HR's came in meaningless games. Nate had a bad August, Doumit struggled slightly as well. And that may have something to do with taking to many foul balls off the noggin. I am not annointing these guys as was done last year but they had productive 2nd halves and quite possibly with a new and respected pitching coach challenging them to throw 1st Pitch Strikes and throw inside. Snell Duke and Gorzo should pitch better they can't pitch much worse...The will also be fighting for their jobs BIG TIME as it looks that at least 9 pitchers will be vying for 4 starting slots...Step away from the glue.  

Bizrow wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 1:44 PM

Has DK reported his "earnings" during his roving?

Those Cleopatra slots are addictive, same with Monopoly

LarryZ wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 1:52 PM

I would not trade Duke just yet. He actually finished last season pretty good and it would be a shame for Duke not to have an oportunity to work with new pitching coach Kerrigan.  

I think the long term deal Pirates offered Snell was premature.

Dejan Kovacevic wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 1:53 PM

No "earnings" here. I gambled once in a casino in Montreal a few years back when the Penguins were there for playoffs, lost $150 and vowed never again.

As for another topic that has arisen here ... people ... I give you all much more credit than this. Be smart, be selective.

BillyKidd wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 1:54 PM

Thanks DMac...Had to try to regain some semblnce of "control" over the Inmates...LMAO

BillyKidd wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 1:55 PM

To every new member and those returning...Welcome and Welcomer back. We are glad you are here amonst the "regular inmates of the asylum" Your thoughts and opinions are welcomed and encouraged for thought provoking chat.

All we ask is that you keep it civil towards your fellow inmates.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 1:56 PM

"What most everyone here seems to agree on is that trades are going to take a back seat to free agents, and free agents are going to take a lot longer than usual to sort out because of teams' position that the economy is forcing them to be cautious. "

My guess is that FC and NH will use this economy excuse as an attempt to give them more time in their positions before they feel they should be held accountable for lack of results at the major league level.

Last winter, they chose not to attempt to improve a last place club because they did not want to trade players while their value was low.

Over the summer, they decided to rebuild.

Now, they will be unable to fully commit to rebuilding and will claim the economy held them back.

I've never seen a front office work so hard on everything but the major league product or with such a slow sense of urgency.

uglyken wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 1:58 PM

@ Billy <<Snell Duke and Gorzo should pitch better they can't pitch much worse...The will also be fighting for their jobs BIG TIME as it looks that at least 9 pitchers will be vying for 4 starting slots..>>

I agree completely…

We probably had a very good shot at breaking that streak last year if those pitchers would have just performed to 75% of their potential. I’m still baffled as to what went into the decision to anoint those five guaranteed starting positions last year; that was the biggest mistake that this management team has made thus far. I think that they learned from that mistake, and will not repeat it again.

uglyken wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 2:02 PM

DK

Bet on the Pirates to go to the Series. The odds makers in their great wisdom have set estimated that we have about as good a shot in 2009 as the Rays did going into 2008.

BillyKidd wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 2:03 PM

@Bizrow--<I know what he put under the tree in the asylum for us for XMas - straight jackets.Thats good, mine is getting kinda ratty>

As the head inmate with over 4600 posts on this blog alone...I could use a new straight jacket...large or XL please.....

Maybe 2?

DFlash02 wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 2:03 PM

@uglyken - Except for the small fact that Andy LaRoche has already been crowned...

Kragbax wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 2:05 PM

Duke just didn't struggle for the first half of last season, he's struggled since the end of his outstanding rookie debut season. The stats prove it. Hey, I'd love to see him stay and become a 20 game winner - I've nothing against the guy. But his pitching over the past several years has been abysmal.

You want stats? How's this:

2008: 185IP, 230hits.

2007: 107.1IP 161 hits.

For his career, including his teriffic rookie season (where he pitched 84.2 innings and gave up 79 hits) 592.1IP 725hits.

We can't trade him (no value), but aside for a few flashes, he's been pitching batting practice.

Again, that's the thing, we trade away the talent we have for the possibility of maybe, hopefully, with-a-prayer future talent. Then we ride that "never fully developed" talent to a 5+ ERA, forever holding out hope that the next season will be a good one. hehe. And I'm the one smoking something? lol

Bizrow wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 2:06 PM

DK, I wish I had learned that lesson, if you look around close enough, I'm sure you can find a couple of my shirts that I lost last trip..

I come home, the dogs don't get to eat for a week...

Bizrow wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 2:07 PM

Uk, odds are 150-1 against, I would be so happy if I believed those were true odds, more like 15,000-1, now the over and under in wins??  Go for it

Groat2Maz2Strangeglove wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 2:08 PM

I am always amazed that folks will take the time to look up offensive stats but not look at fielding.

Andino is a shortstop!  I want my shortstop to be the cornerstone of my defense.  Giving up 4 outs in an inning almost always guarantees losing in the Major Leagues.  Heck, it usually guarantees losing in softball!

Andino's error totals in Minors:

2007 - 34

2006 - 20

2005 - 27

2004 - 28

2003 - 28

Even as Andino progressed to AAA where the fields are much better, I see little or no progress in his fielding.

This guy in NOT an appropriate replacement for Jack Wilson!  Replacement for Luis Cruz——maybe.  That's it!

DFlash02 wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 2:13 PM

Oooh... let's say 77.5....?

BillyKidd wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 2:13 PM

@NH--<<teams' position that the economy is forcing them to be cautious. ">>

Not that I disagree, just seeking clarification on your point above...

The PBC in particular or all of the teams?

Bizrow wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 2:15 PM

BK - what color?  The zippered one or the one with belts?

DFlash02 wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 2:18 PM

Ok so too high...  I'm hoping for Freak Show Part 2.

Over Under 61.5?

DMac wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 2:22 PM

@BK...I have no idea what you mean...We need to be controlled? You talk like we fly off the handle at the smallest rumors or something!   ;-)

@Krag...In Duke's defense, he was injured for a very good portion of the 2007 season.  He had a lot of bad outings the beginning of last season, but he looked a lot better toward the end.  

In general, to me, it looks like everyone is being cautious with their acquisitions because of the economy.

uglyken wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 2:23 PM

@ Hostage <<My guess is that FC and NH will use this economy excuse as an attempt to give them more time in their positions before they feel they should be held accountable for lack of results at the major league level.>>

All that I will say about that is that everyone is facing a poor economy. Some local economies may be better than others, my sense is that the Pittsburgh area is somewhere in the middle. There should not be any excuses pointing toward a poor economy as a reason why we aren’t showing any progress in the win column. Frankly, I think that the bar has been placed low enough already.

If the pitching improves significantly (shouldn’t be too hard comparing to last year), then we should improve on last years numbers. We better play to a level that causes other teams to take us seriously in 2010. If not, then FC & NH are not fulfilling their goals and their futures should then be reconsidered.

Chicken on the Hill with Will wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 2:25 PM

@G2M2S

Good post on the fielding numbers and importance of defense. Just for fun and to play devil's advocate:

Q: What shortstop made 129 errors in his first three minor league seasons only to eventually win a gold glove?

A: Our Buccos own Jay Bell

That's not to say that Andino is the next Jay Bell, but with a young player it can be very hard to project how they will ultimately develop and maybe there is more than meets the eye with his fielding. At least, one would hope so.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 2:26 PM

Billy,

I suspect that FC and NH are trying to milk the "grace" period before they should be held accountable for lack of winning at the major league level for as long as they possibly can.

Year 1 - we should not be held accountable because we didn't want to trade players at low value.

Year 2 - we chose to rebuild Bob so we could eventually build a championship caliber team at a low cost to you.

Year 2 - our rebuilding effort will be delayed into another season because we were unable to trade away all our higher cost veterans in 2008 due to economic conditions.

I believe these two guys are trying to buy themselves as much time as they possibly can before are willing to be held accountable for results at the major league level.

FJR1300B wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 2:28 PM

Agreed Groat. I didn't like the fielding stats I saw either! Not even .980 which is average to poor. Tsk. tsk.

uglyken wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 2:31 PM

@Kragbax <<Duke just didn't struggle for the first half of last season, he's struggled since the end of his outstanding rookie debut season. >>

He has struggled ever since Tracy & Co messed with his mechanics. We have a preety good pitching comming on board.

It is too like the Pirates of old to trade players near their lowest value, and have them become solid performers when a different coaching staff gets them straightened out. I would prefer to see if our new staff can help him build on last year's progress.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 2:32 PM

Billy,

In other words, FC and NH will build the case to NH and fans that because of

1. The low value of Bay in 2007

2. The rebuilding effort of 2007 / 2008

3. Now the economic conditions that delayed the complete rebuilding effort.

They should not be accountable to produce results on the major league field for 4 to 5 years.

That is their strategy.

BillyKidd wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 2:36 PM

@Bizrow--<stats>

I really could care less about his hits...It is W/L (That does REALLY concern me, scares me in fact). But his ERA was down almot .75 from 07 to 08. It is still over 4.5 but the improvement is there. Is he what I want in a starter not sure? He has shown very nice flashes, enough that I want him competing for a job. If he can't compete he does not stay...You almost never ever give up on a Lefty ARM for fear he leaves and figures it out elsewhere...

Bizrow wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 2:44 PM

DFlash, that might be a bit low, I think last year was 75.5, will have to check my worthless ticket.  I do have a bet on Steelers though over under was 9.5 (I hope baywatch isn't watching ; }  - also, I think I have steelers at 10-1 to get to SB, 20-1 to win it all, but I got those maybe Feb or so, the odds of course are much lower now.  

I'll bet, nyuk, nyuk, nyuk, PBC over under is mid sixties?

Ah, another reason to book another trip...

JAL wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 2:45 PM

Come back from doing things and see Duke being discussed again--OK

Duke was the second best pitcher on the staff last year--lower ERA than anyone but Maholm (and Karstens if you count a few starts).  As for struggling, wish all the pitchers would struggle like Duke did in Sept. with his 2.81 ERA.

DFlash02 wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 2:53 PM

I dunno if it's that low.  Things have to go right everywhere and there is little-to-no evidence of that within the past 1.5 decades...

Maybe Vegas has it higher... but a lot of things have to go right...

JAL wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 3:06 PM

I also agree with BK--sure it nice to have a power pitcher who give sup few hits but hits are not the key--runs are the key and how they translate into wins.  Here is nice stat on hits versus wins and runs

Tommy John--1977--220 innings, 225 hits, 82 runs 68 earned, 2.78 ERA, won 20 lost 7.

BillyKidd wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 3:11 PM

@NH--So this is specific to the PBC only? The economic situation is affecting the PBC only? Even though other small mkt teams have expressed the same comments and are reviewing their entire organizations from the top down...

I know we have trotted down this path before, but do you think

1) The Nuttings have that much mind control over FC NH to make sure that they will not or do not acquire MLB Talent?

2) Do you actually think that NH and FC want to continue to have their names and whatever reputation they have (I do not know) attached to a franchise that does not want to win?

If so why would they?

Both had fairly secure employment elsewhere?

The economy is not an excuse it is a fact?

As sports fans when you here that the freaking NFL is cutting it's staff it can't be that good.  

Bizrow wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 3:13 PM

Vegas knows best, thats why the casinos have a bigger living room than we do in the asylum.

And two mile hallways as I think Mr DK pointed out.

And IMO, Duke could turn into one of thse lefty crafty veterans that we would drool over.  

But again, I am a true sucker and I live in the asylum....

Chicken on the Hill with Will wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 3:20 PM

Going to take the other side on Duke and the hits argument.

His lifetime BAA (batting average against) is .307, including .304 this past year. There was a lot of talk about Al Oliver on this board yesterday and how he deserved to be in the HOF. His lifetime BA is .303, so this is basically the equivalent of Scoops stepping to the plate every time (at least in terms of average).

If you look at Duke's month-by-month breakout from last year, the two months in which his BAA spiked were also the months in which his ERA spiked.

Bizrow wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 3:35 PM

Duke is all the more reason we need a sound defensive shortstop.

So looks like the asylum gang got up on Christmas morning and either Santa didn't make it, or the Grinch got here before we awoke??

Not even a piece of coal, sigh...

marty34156 wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 3:38 PM

if we trade for this kid i think then that all but guarentees if jack isn't traded before the start of the season he'll be traded at the deadline

Capn wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 3:42 PM

OMG!  The Mets?  Hang up the phone, NOW!  They have no non-starting pitcher, including Heilman, who has seen the light and drear of Shea Stadium who would be an improvement to anyone we have.  And if it's Duke we would be sending, prepare yourself for his best year ever.

Capn wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 3:46 PM

Going back aways to an earlier DK comment:  The Pirates were asking for 3 - three - 3 prospects for Jack??  That seems a pretty steep price to me.  If that's how it's going, I can see why nothing has been done.

Bizrow wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 3:50 PM

Where are these Duke rumors coming from?

JAL wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 3:54 PM

Chicken

Soitenly (Nyuk, Nyuk) if you give up too many hits the ERA will go up.  The point is that the number of hits themselves are not the key stat.  A pitcher can give up a lot hits and still do very well.  Dukes average after the All-Star team was .294 while it was .311 pre-All-Star but his ERA was a run lower pre All star (that is the horrible July effect)  His lowest avg. month was August when batters hit .264 against him and his ERA was 4.64.  The avg in Sept was .288--over 20 points higher than August but his ERA was 2.81.  

So hits per se are not the hits--types of hits might be--for example in August he gave 6 HR while he gave up none in Sept.  

DMac wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 3:57 PM

@Bizrow...it took me a minute to decipher TIOPS (Sorry, it's not a link I was familiar with)

But here is the link:

insidepittsburghsports.com/.../4592

Cave Bonifield wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 4:10 PM

Is this going to register as the most boring Winter Meetings on record.

Why do they call them Winter Meetings when they are in the Fall ?  There.  That discussion ought to spice things up a bit.

BillyKidd wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 4:10 PM

@Bizrow-<Zach Duke rumors:

BuccoNation wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect

on 10 Dec 2008 1:23 PM

Billy,

TIOPS... not sure if I can link from here or not. I'm sure most of you know the site though.

Pgh_fan_in_NH wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 4:12 PM

@Capn:3 prospects for Jack??  That seems a pretty steep price to me.

Don't forget the rest of the equation. They wanted the Bucs to pick up a bunch of Jack's salary. That is probably the reason for the extra player.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 4:16 PM

Billy,

We're not on the same page.

Of course the economy effects all clubs, NFL, etc.

That's not my point.

I'm saying that FC and NH will use it as an excuse for delaying the period in which they think they should be held accountable for the club begin producing results.

I don't think too many other clubs, if any will blame the economy for their inability to compete in their respective sport.

In other words, here is the kind of conversation I think one could hear within the walls of PNC Park in 2012 or so.....

"Well Bob I know the fans are getting more and more upset that we haven't won yet, but you have to remember that we held off rebuilding in 2007 because we didn't want to trade Jason Bay when his value was low. And then our rebuilding effort stalled during the winter of 2008 when the economy tanked and we could not trade Jack Wilson, Adam LaRoche, Freddy Sanchez, and John Grabow because other clubs were not willing to take on their salaries. As a result we weren't able to fully implement the rebuilding plan until 2010. So with that said, you have to understand we believe our clock really began ticking in 2010, not 2007. We need more time for the prospects and players WE acquired to mature.".

FC and NH will attempt to draw out the expectation to win to 2013 or beyond.

Chicken on the Hill with Will wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 4:19 PM

JAL,

No doubt, there is validity to what you are saying. I looked at those numbers too before my post and what caught my eye was the .344 BAA and 5.34 ERA in April and .369 BAA and 9.51 ERA in July. If one were to do a regression on his BAA and ERA (apologies, I clearly have too much time on my hands today), it would be positively sloped although as you point out, perhaps not as steep as one might think, with slugging percentage against (SPA!) being more highly correlated.

Cajun Thunder wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 4:20 PM

I think that DK was trying to drop a hint earlier that there's no smoke to the Duke trade rumor.

As for Andino...Albuquerque is at altitude...so I wouldn't expect any numbers he had at AAA to translate to the majors. Also...the word is that he is being blocked for playing time by Alfredo Amezaga...the same guy that lasted about 2 weeks on our roster in 2005 and got 3 AB.

Capps rumors are almost as bad. The Mets just spent a TON of money on F-Rod. If we are going to send them Matt Capps (which I seriously doubt), just who are the Mets going to send back. Aaron Heilman??? Please...spare me the stupidity of that rumor.

Until the Dodgers actually SIGN a shortstop...instead of talking about signing one (Furcal)...that's gonna be the most likely place for a trade for Jack Wilson.

My vote for most likely to be traded...Freddy Sanchez...assuming the shoulder is OK.

BillyKidd wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 4:21 PM

All--After reading the link DMac posted I would think that if there was any credibility to this that our very own DK would have posted something by now....I am not sure I believe this rumor until it comes from a crediible source.

leadoff wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 4:25 PM

From the way things are going I think NH should pack his bags, catch the first flight to Iceland and don't come back until spring, take a long vacation, somehow, someway I get the feeling he is out to dump players, money is no object, he has already gotten rid of a couple of low end players, he just wants to get rid of players, Jack for sure and anyone else he can get rid of, I havn't heard the name of 1 player that we need or have to have that has been mentioned in any of these trade talks.

JHadar wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 4:26 PM

Has it occurred to anyone that with the market for Jack drying up that they may be looking for a backup SS for 2009 to replace Gomez or Rivas?  

We're (possibly) trading a minor league catcher for a minor league shortstop.  Andino has utility infielder written all over him.

Groat2Maz2Strangeglove wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 4:28 PM

HostageSage,

I'm glad you didn't get a deer.  It has magnified your angst!

NuttingHostage wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 4:32 PM

Leadoff,

"I think NH should pack his bags, catch the first flight to Iceland and don't come back until spring, take a long vacation"

Isn't that what NH did last year during his first off season as the Bucs GM after inhereting a last place club?

They should call him Neal Hibernator.

NuttingHostage wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 4:33 PM

Groaty,

That was a good one.

;-)

pattonbb wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 4:36 PM

Billy , Re. "I am not sure I believe this rumor until it comes from a crediible source."

I absolutely agree. But FC and his gang should be taking every phone call about any player. You can't tell me teams aren't talking about Duke. Especially since we seem stuck in the midst of another long term rebuilding project.

NH- If anyone hears one word out of the front office about the slow economy influencing deals, they should be reminded that the Brew Crew managed to scrape up 100 million to try and keep CC there. Guess they were recycling cans to get that cash.

Chicken on the Hill with Will wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 4:37 PM

@ NH

>> I don't think too many other clubs, if any will blame the economy for their inability to compete in their respective sport. <<

The Blue Jays announced that they may stay out of the free agent market this year and may have to slash payroll, although to be fair, they have the added competitive burden of a weakening currency vis-a-vis the dollar (due to the flight to quality to US Treasurys) and thus, aren't entirely comparable to the PBC.

JAL wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 4:37 PM

Chicken

Good post back.  We shall now have to wait to see how Duke does next season.  He throws some very good games, like the one he lost 2-0 to Cubs and 7-0 shutout of the Giants, and some bad ones.  

JAL wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 4:40 PM

Patton

No, they did not recycle cans--they sold DVDs of Randall Simon hitting a sausage :)

JAL wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 4:41 PM

Off now to some chores--carry on keep things civil

Dave Drazga wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 4:42 PM

I see this shortstop the Bucs are looking at possibly trading for hit two home runs last year.

Hey, that's double the usual number.

The Pirates each offseason have an uncanny knack of scouting or acquiring guys who in their last campaign hit exactly ONE home run.

Look for it.

Nickster wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 4:44 PM

This would be great if we can get this kid for paulino and maybe a third rate prospect.  It kind of reminds me of a trade we made with the Indians about a decade ago for one BRIAN GILES.

Kragbax wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Marlins talk shortstop prospect
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 4:46 PM

Please..... you spit out one month of good pitching for Duke - out of the previous three year period. And sure, though hits themselves aren't the be-all and end-all stat, they certainly go a long way towards keeping ones ERA down. I wish he could pitch like he did in September all year, I was rooting for him, but can he?

Then you talk about Tommy John in 1977.. he had a 2.77 ERA FOR THE YEAR - not one month! Take away Dukes rookie season, and his career ERA is near 5.

People bash LaRoache for being a second half hitter (myself included), yet why the Duke bandwagon when the guy's a one month (out of 36) pitcher? Do we really wonder why we're a AAA calibur club?! Seriously?! Aside from September of last year, the guy's been tee-ing it up for the opposition.

The bottom line is, we've got him, he'll be in the mix, and as much as anyone I'll be pulling for him to succeed. Just as I do for EVERY pitcher that takes the mound, and every better that steps into the box. And though I wish his continued success, his own history isn't on his side.

Cave Bonifield wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Doumit's agent to meet
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 4:49 PM

4:40 PM

I heard this while walking my dog:

Discussions are in place to turn the PBC into a bank holding company in order to secure TARP funds.  In order to qualify, the PBC had to show a reluctance to part with money in order to help the local economy.

A spokesman for the PBC, going only by the name of Opie, stated that management is doing all that it can to comply with the directive to tighten its lending/spending practices and points to actions taken in the free agent market and at the Fall Meetings as evidence.

The acquired TARP funds, according to the spokesman, are to be used to build a player development Academy in the burgeoning talent hotbed of the Montenegro Riviera.

The application is currently under review and the outcome is expected to be known after the New Year.  

Groat2Maz2Strangeglove wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Doumit's agent to meet
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 5:00 PM

Nick Nick Bo Bick,

What in God's green earth has an Andino trade reminding you of the Brian Giles trade?  That both Andino and Giles are breathing!?!

Giles had an obvious upside when we picked him up.  He had shown power.

The only upside Andino has exhibited is an over/under for 30 errors committed in a season.

And you want to throw in another prospect besides Paulino to get him!?!

You're really David Littlefield in disguise, aren't you?!

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Doumit's agent to meet
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 5:11 PM

Cave- How do you feel that the Mets essentially used taxpayer money to sign K-Rod and that the insurance on K-Rod most likely will be AIG?  Thus, when K-Rod breaks down (and his overuse from 2008 will contribute to it) , the Mets win again.

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Doumit's agent to meet
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 5:14 PM

Re: Doumit.  POH just got a superpoke and did a triple sokow off her desk at work.

BillyKidd wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Doumit's agent to meet
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 5:14 PM

@Cave--4:40PM rumor..

I heard the same thing from the wino outside the Post Office a short while ago.

lost_zero wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Doumit's agent to meet
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 5:17 PM

My guess, and it's just a guess, is that the Paulino for Andino trade won't happen until after the Rule 5 draft, if at all.  Andino is a non-tender candidate, and the Pirates may play chicken with the Marlins to see if they can get him for nothing.  May the fish have to remove him if they want to take someone in the Rule 5.

Then they keep the Paulino chip, for whatever that's worth.  Keep in mind, he could still be the backup this year.  

BillyKidd wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Doumit's agent to meet
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 5:32 PM

There was/is nothing written that a deal had to be completed while in Vegas...This is about looking the other "guy in the eyes" and getting a sense of are they serious. Am I disappointed that a deal has not been completed yet. Sure I am. But it is not 5 minutes before the trade deadline. Sit back pour yourself your favorite beverage and wait to see what happens. We will have plenty to be grinding our teeth and pulling our hair out in clumps...This is only the first 3 days. 16 years should have taught us something about a little patience...and rumors.

Baywatch wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Doumit's agent to meet
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 5:38 PM

@Groat2Maz - "Nick Nick Bo Bick, What in God's green earth has an Andino trade reminding you of the Brian Giles trade?  That both Andino and Giles are breathing!?!"

Banana-pana-fo-Fick! You cracked me up! LOL! I was thinking the same thing ... I believe if you check Giles' pre-Pirates Indian numbers, he was already hitting 20 home runs a year, with nightly ESPN highlights!

FJR1300B wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Doumit's agent to meet
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 5:42 PM

Ok DK - I just came full circle. Someone is now comparing this kid who hit .280 in the PCL to Brian Giles. Shut down the site before it completely melts the server...

Look gentlemen, this kid is just another prospect in an area of weakness for the team. Competition for Bixler, if it happens. Again - where are the real efforts to reach out to major league talents? Where are the whispers that we are reaching for major league talent in a trade? There are none, and there will be none. Go home and go to sleep if your waiting up for that. The best move this club can make this off-season is to make no moves at all, because any move they WOULD make would be to tear another decent part of the team apart. That and only that is the reason I am waiting to see - for just how little in return they get for anybody.

N.H. and F.C. - I'm waiting for you to make your plays and my season ticket package is on the line. Like I've said before - when you spend the $ - I'll spent the $.

Cave Bonifield wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Doumit's agent to meet
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 5:45 PM

Bay

Is Robert Fick heading our way?

Bizrow wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Doumit's agent to meet
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 5:48 PM

DMac, BK, thanks for the info on where the Duke trade is coming from.  Made it a favorite.

Thunder - thanks for the thoughts on DKs, secret message, was worried and kept going over mine to see if I crossed the line...

Cave Bonifield, LMAO, now hasn't nurse cratchett warned you about not swallowing your pills??

BK, one more thing, what color and style do you want for your straight jacket?  Remember, it should match your jammies.

Well, at least tomorrow there might be some action, Rule 5 wise, poor DK, in Vegas, doesn't gamble, no news, hope he is hitting the buffets...  (although I bet theres not freezing rain outside like there is here, the dogs wanted to go out when I got home, took one look and backwarded away from there...)

Ah, Pittsburgh in December..

FJR1300B wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Doumit's agent to meet
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 5:56 PM

Does anyone have a site to preview the available Rule 5 players? I'd love to see who's available.

BillyKidd wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Doumit's agent to meet
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 6:03 PM

@Bizrow--<<Remember, it should match your jammies.>>

Ahh. Maybe too much info, I do not wear jammies...

All I wear is cargo's and tenni's...Khaki

Lol. Thanks for continuing to make it light and airy in here!

Iceman wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Doumit's agent to meet
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 6:14 PM

FJR<Rule 5 link>

Thanks to Jal from last week...

baseballanalysts.com/.../the_2008_draft.php

hope it works...if it does click on last week for the pitchers

JAL wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Doumit's agent to meet
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 6:14 PM

Krag

Please read my posts better--The stats I posted for Tommy John was for the year.  Who could pitch 220 innings in month.  The point was he gave up more hits than innings pitched for the year and that supports that a pitcher can give up a lot of hits and still have an excellent year. That was my major point.  I realize that Duke hasn't pitched well for a season since his rookie year but the way he pitched the last month gives some hope he might have figured out something.  

JAL wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Doumit's agent to meet
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 6:17 PM

FJR

Don't know where there a full list but go to see who might be available.  Then click on last week to se the pitchers

baseballanalysts.com/.../the_2008_draft.php

JAL wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Doumit's agent to meet
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 6:18 PM

Iceman

Thanks for picking that up--I posted it again too but glad to see others used it.

Iceman wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Doumit's agent to meet
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 6:26 PM

JAL,

Sorry, I should've waited to see if you caught it...didnt know if you were still doing chores or not...    :-)

Nickster wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Doumit's agent to meet
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 6:27 PM

Baywatch and grope maz(sick)... i respect your opinions but all i was saying is that this is the kind of trades we need to do because it is a low risk/high award trade like giles was...i mean cmon we only gave up freakin rincon for the guy

JAL wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Doumit's agent to meet
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 6:30 PM

Iceman

No apology needed--doesn't hurt to have it posted twice

JAL wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Doumit's agent to meet
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 6:32 PM

Krag

Also, if want a bit more months from 2008--Duke's ERA was 3.13 in June and 3.68 in May--so that is 3 months of the season with a good ERA.  Now lets hope he pitches a season like he did those 3 months.

Nickster wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Doumit's agent to meet
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 6:41 PM

Jal you have to realize duke is not a major league pitcher you notice he does fine against the first trip around the lineup but after a batter has seen him a few times he gets pounded harder than paris hilton on her birthday

FJR1300B wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Doumit's agent to meet
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 6:41 PM

Thanks for the link... it says there that there are 4 -500 players actually available. NH and Kyle have their work cut out to evaluate that pool. Seems to be some good arms, and few bats.

They did have the top batters listed.

FJR1300B wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Doumit's agent to meet
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 6:43 PM

Or Matt Morris on his...

Chicken on the Hill with Will wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Doumit's agent to meet
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 6:46 PM

@ Nickster

>> this is the kind of trades we need to do because it is a low risk/high award trade like giles was...i mean cmon we only gave up freakin rincon for the guy <<

You are undoubtedly right that this trade turned out extremely well for the Pirates but when it was made, I'm not so sure that it was the low risk/high reward no-brainer that it now looks like from an historical perspective.

At the time, Rincon was considered one of the top lefties out of the pen while up until that point, Giles had been a .270 platoon player with some pop in his bat (and a good eye) and who had only played in the more hitter friendly AL.

So there were some questions at the time regarding how it would work out.

Just my two cents to the discussion.

Iceman wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Doumit's agent to meet
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 6:47 PM

FJR,

If you click on "last week" in the first sentence of that article you will see the pitchers they have listed...

Nickster wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Doumit's agent to meet
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 6:49 PM

ya but relievers are a dime a dozen you can get any reliever you want except closers for virtually nothing

JAL wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates, Doumit's agent to meet
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 6:57 PM

Nickster

If that was the case how did he have 3 months with ERAs below 3.50?  How did he go 7 innings with 4 hits and 2 runs against Arizona on Aug 5,  8 innings 7 hits 2 runs against the Cubs Aug 27,  9 innings 6 hits 0 runs against the Giants Sept. 5,  6 innings 5 hits no runs against the Braves on May 12,  7.2 innings 7 hits 2 runs against the Astros on June 4--and I could list more.  A couple of good games can be fortune but a number of them indicate an MLB pitcher.  

KMRempel22 wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 7:11 PM

"Huntington, in his media session, that the Pirates are likely to make a trade that he twice described as '"something small."'

Big surprise...but thanks anyway for the update, Dejan.  You must be bored to tears.

Someone please wake me in July...or maybe later.

JHadar wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 7:17 PM

JAL -- Every time it looks like management is going to do anything at all you are going to have a few people who believe that every silver lining has a cloud, especially considering the shattering of the club that Bonifay and Littlefield did.

Duke is a major league pitcher and he's had some bright spots and we hope Kerrigan can help him figure out how to have more of them.  

A left handed starting pitcher is the most valuable commodity in major league baseball, and to suggest giving one away just to be rid of him is the height of foolishness.  Stick to your guns.

Dejan Kovacevic wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 7:18 PM

Bored?

Not even close, Karen.

The easiest thing is to cover actual transactions. They are right there in front of you, easy to get quotes, all that stuff. This is much more challenging, trying to uncover talks that, in most cases, do not mean much or have little chance of materializing.

JAL wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 7:32 PM

JH

Thanks--with you 100% on that

KMRempel22 wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 7:35 PM

I know that, silly!!  :>)

Just trying to get a rise out of you.  Frankly, your head must be spinning with all of the rumors and STUFF that fails to materialize.  Great job, as usual!

KV wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 7:38 PM

Here's your starter buccos.

from mlbtraderumors.com

Phillies Looking To Trade Eaton

By Tim Dierkes [December 10 at 6:29pm CST]

According to Gerry Fraley, the Phillies are looking to trade starter Adam Eaton.  They'll pay all but $1MM of his $9MM salary for '09 and don't want anything in return.

BillyKidd wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 7:47 PM

@JH--Feeling Better? How is Mrs H...Virtual Chicken Noodle  soup just to keep you warm.

<Zach Duke> Correct on not wanting to give up on a Lefty...

Nickster wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 7:50 PM

Jal... are you listening to yourself if you think duke is a good mahor league pitcher than you need to get your glasses clean so he had a couple of good games he only pitches pretty well against the cubs and the dbacks giants and braves are teams that rarely see him through the year but i bet if they had... he would get hit harder than a housewife that cheated on her abusive husband.

BillyKidd wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 7:58 PM

<6:52pm: Frisaro says Pirates shortstop Brian Bixler is a name that has surfaced as a possible return for Andino>

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

DK you hearing anything since the briefing?

SirLochsby wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:01 PM

KV: <Here's your starter buccos.>

NO NO NO NO NO!!!

Eaton, the man, seems like a nice enough fellow.  But as a pitcher, ...  um, let me say, there's a REASON Philly is looking to get rid of him.  The only scenario I would entertain would be Eaton, plus the $8MM, plus a 2008 World Series program, PLUS, if Eaton doesn't make the Pirates out of Spring Training (which would be a VERY REAL POSSIBILITY, based on merit alone!), the Phillies pay the remaining $1MM.  And...  the Pirates give the Phillies... their word that they'll start Eaton in the first Spring Training game.  And maybe a bag of Big League chew.  Okay, and maybe our 7th round pick in 2009.  Eh, strike that.  No pick.

Srsly.

BillyKidd wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:01 PM

@Nickster--< he would get hit harder than a housewife that cheated on her abusive husband> <<pounded harder than paris hilton on her birthday>>

Ok we get your point. Enough already. The abuse references are not required.

BillyKidd wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:02 PM

@SirL--<Eaton>

Wonderfully stated.

SirLochsby wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:03 PM

Nickster, please stop it with the offensive one-liners.

The Paris Hilton reference was gratuitous, and domestic abuse is NEVER funny.

Nickster wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:04 PM

Im sorry billykid i thought this was an adult forum

Groat2Maz2Strangeglove wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:04 PM

Chicken Man from High Places,

Perfect analysis of Rincon/Giles.

JAL,

You are so sharp tonight.  Your stats are 'bulleyes' each time!  I cannot imagine giving up last season's second best starting pitcher for nothing.

Nick Nick Bo Bick,

Look, I understand your exuberance to see some trade made but  .  .  .  

A low risk/high reward trade is always good.  A low risk/low reward is hardly worth it, and that's all Paulino plus low prospect as you suggested (I still would not want to give up another player!) for Andino would be.  Paulino possibly might be the extra kicker we could use in another trade later this off season, so I would hesitate to move him just to move him, even though I am not much of a fan of Joggin' Ronnie.  (I think my dislike for Tracy actually soured me on Paulino.)  

Andino is just a AAA shortstop—not much of a hitter, flashes but extremely inconsisent as a fielder [34 AAA errors in 2007]—who will give us some minor league depth, and one hopes someday will 'grow up' into a serviceable major league roster possibility.  If you can get Andino for Dave Davidson, the lefthanded pitcher in AA, that's a low risk/low reward trade I like.  Not Paulino.

And Nickelodeon,

GOOD relievers are NOT a dime a dozen, just bad ones!

See:  Denny Bautista, Marino Salas, Frankie Osoria, Jesse Chavez, Jason Davis, John van Benschoten, Yoslan Herrera, Chris Hansen, Evan Meek last year for Pirates as P-R-O-O-F of that!!!

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:07 PM

The Rule 5 draft... drat!! I wish my local cable carrier had the MLb network now.  You know this draft will be on it.  

I'm not sure if Adam Eaton would go for this, but the proverbial long man and 6th and 7th guy.  Its when he sees the lineup for the 2nd and 3rd time is when he throws batting practice.

Anyone wish to take a flyer on Pat Burrell at 1 year, 5 million?

Nickster wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:07 PM

oh ya billykid the paris hilton comment was not about abuse dont you ever watch leno or conan?

JHadar wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:09 PM

BK -- Getting better, but it's taking time.  We both stayed home today, but unless there's another relapse I'm going to go to work tomorrow.  Thanks for the soup and the kind thoughts.

BillyKidd wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:09 PM

@Nickster--Forum.

Kinda yes but no. We do have several Women that the regulars are somewhat protective of as they are wonderful members in good standing. As well as the children that sit in the laps of the inmates...

Apology readily accepted. Thank you.

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:10 PM

Nickster- this is an adult forum, but we act like classy adults :-)

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:12 PM

Nickster-  Please leave Paris alone.  She's a friend of a friend.

Nickster wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:15 PM

Listen groat2Maz i understand your skeptical about andino but im even more skeptical about paulino he is fat and lazy behind the plate he overswings, he just doesnt get it i dont think he even cares, and if i were florida i wouldnt take paulino without anything else a low end prospect would be just a courteous gesture because atleast he might do something and im not saying give them alvarez i meant a prospect that is playing in the softball beer leagues lol.

Nickster wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:16 PM

ok thank you guys i accept your apology

KV wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:19 PM

I was looking at the price tag. All but 1 mil.

BillyKidd wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:21 PM

@Nickster--<<oh ya billykid the paris hilton comment was not about abuse dont you ever watch leno or conan>>

Is it really necessary to make your point though? This is not either of those shows but a blog. You are more than welocome to offer your thoughts and opinions but negative comments towards any women are somewhat juvenile...Maybe that is why I do not wish to watch conan or leno.

Groat2Maz2Strangeglove wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:24 PM

Underhand Stan,

I do get the new MLB Network.  They have been running old games, which is fun.  I can't help stopping there as I do my "Male Crawl" with the remote.

However, they are not really starting up until mid-January, so I don't think there will be Rule 5 Draft coverage.

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:25 PM

Paulino to the Bo sox (for that 2nd rate prospect), trade that Prospect and "prospect not named Tabata, Alvarez and Ford)" for Bedard and spend the extra $$$.   I think the asylum will like him, he wears #45 for John Candleraria (I believe I heard that once).  

Nickster wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:26 PM

billykid let it go if it offends you so much than leave talk about the pirates. people like you is what makes this country to literal im starting to get tired of your crap

SirLochsby wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:29 PM

KV: <All but 1 mil.>  A good point, that it wouldn't be a huge chunk of change, but I think it's 1 mil that we could better spend elsewhere.  And I watched Eaton pitch. *shudder*  It wasn't always ugly early, but once an outing got ugly, it got ugly FAST.  Anyway, not a bad point on the general idea of a guy we could go for.  I just don't like the particular guy!

Nickster wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:30 PM

@whystandbelinda....

what  do you think we can give the mariners for bedard without giving up those guys.. would you trade a pitcher like that for second rate prospects?

SirLochsby wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:31 PM

WSB; What are you talking about?

JAL wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:31 PM

Nickster

Clean your glasses too--I did not write he was "good", just a MLB pitcher who had some good games--if you don't think giving up two runs to the Cubs over 8 innings is not good then I can't help you.  Your point was that when a when the line up comes around the 2nd and third time in game Duke get hit hard.  The games I posted counter that so you shift to "well, if the teams saw him more times in the season".  Of course no team sees a pitcher more than few times in season.  Pirates play 18 games against their division so with a 5 man rotation teams rarely see a starter more than 4or 5 times in a season.

In 2008 the team Duke started against the most was the Cubs--5 times.  The fifth start was August 27 where, if your theory is correct, Duke should have been hit hard.  Instead he pitched the 2 runs over 8 innings.

So the evidence shows that Duke pitches deep into a number of games so he can go through a lineup 3 or 4 times and that he pitched a very good game against the team (a very good team) that had seen him the most.

Groat2Maz2Strangeglove wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:31 PM

Shoot!!

I was just getting ready to leave for home.

Now I have to stick around to watch the cat fight!!

JAL wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:33 PM

Groat--Thank you--I try!

Bizrow wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:33 PM

Bk - yes far further than I ever intended to go.  

I would like, however, to offer a bet on the PBC for the winner of the NH fantasy league(s) for the winner, we need to discuss the options, and, as hard as it may be for me, I will, sigh, go to Vegas and personally make the bet(s)

But tomorrow, as the dogs are whining, its time for me to get into my jammies and get ready for the world tomorrow, I'd like to tell you a story about a "hapless" adventure about betting on the PBC a few years ago.  That is the last time my fingers can type jammies, I swear that.(xcept one more time)

So I lay in my jammies all snug in my bed, knowing that DK will be awake with a phone call should come a surprise, and I'll check in the am..

What did the Waltons say in their asylum?? Night all and be sure turn out the lights.  Dk, try Cleopatra, one time,

Biz

Nickster wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:40 PM

Jal if duke is a good major league pitcher he wouldnt give up a ton of runs his next starts after his good games he gives up way to many hits like a poor major league starter would and the only thing he improved on were his walks witch will probably come back next season so NH should just load up a video of his 05 year and hope that some gm falls in love with him and give us someone for him before nobody wants him

Iceman wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:47 PM

Nickster,

This is a family friendly site.  Please respect that..

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:47 PM

Nickster- the orioles received Adam Jones, Tillman and Sherill.  They do not like him up there and his value has dropped significantly since last year.  

In the future, please be respectful, especially of Billy.  If you knew him, you'd want to hang with him.

BillyKidd wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:49 PM

@SirL, Groat, WSB, JAL-<Nickster>

Like so many that have come and gone before him..Just not worth the time.

To quote a line from the famous G-Man "Page Down people, Page Down"

Capn wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:51 PM

Nickster - calm down.  We don't treat each other badly on this blog.  Sorry if you are tired of some of us and have no respect for some others, but many of us have been on here for quite awhile and we've learned to get along.  

DMac wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:58 PM

@Nickster...I personally, take offense to your remarks...being one of the aforementioned women on the site, but also as an adult who is very conscious of any younger folks who may read these posts.  The PG gives us this space to voice our opinions, but if remarks become crass and irresponsible, they may pull it.  

We are all entitled to our own opinions on certain players and we take care to voice them in an courteous, if not intelligent manner.  

Sorry all...I had to say my peace as well.

BillyKidd wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:58 PM

@Ice, WSB, Capn,...Thank you very much sincerely appreciated by each of you.

Nickster wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:59 PM

im trying to get along with you people i say a joke and it gets out of hand and i say something about paris hilton and people start crying like she is some religous figure well she is not and i dont appreciate everyone ganging up on me if this were a family friendly site you guys would have let this go a long long time ago i mean cmon

Dejan Kovacevic wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 8:59 PM

The standard set for this forum is simple: My 7-year-old daughter reads it, and she will continue to read it.

We are talking about baseball, so there is no need for a) being "adult" or b) being uncivil.

This is a good group.

Groat2Maz2Strangeglove wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 9:08 PM

Dejan, like the Lone Ranger, pops up with his silver bullet.

Miss 7-year old Kovacevic,

I'm glad you come to play at our house sometimes!

JAL wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 9:09 PM

Nickster

OK done--You don't seem to read my posts, or change them what you want to respond to--where did I write he was good?  I said he has some good games.  

You shift the argument every time one your theories are dis-proven.   Do I detect a bit of dogmatism there?

Oh yes, the 2 run 8 inning game against the Cubs was followed by a 9 inning shutout of the Giants so I guess he can put a couple of good games together.  

BTW--Why just pick on Duke--what about Snell and Gorzo who boith had higher ERAs than Duke?

JHadar wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 9:09 PM

DK -- thank you.  

JAL wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 9:17 PM

DK

Thanks for dropping in and risk missing a rumor :)

JHadar wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 9:18 PM

Andino for Bixler is probably value for value but it does kind of lead to the question of why swap backup shortstops.

Nickster wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 9:19 PM

OK i see that everyone is offended..... i have played baseball all my life and thought it was fun and i say stuff like that in the dugout to my teamates and they laugh and it loosens them up i know now not to say things like that  to this group sorry everyone sorry to DK and sorry to your daughter. So i guess the lesson learned here is keep it in the dugout.... with that said bixler for andino would be a great trade if we can pull that off...it seems to me that bixler needs to get some muscle on his body to be a major league player

JAL wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 9:19 PM

So now it may be Bixler for Andino--nothing gets the blood flowing like  trading two light hitting middle infielders :)  If that trade comes off it will lead Sports Center :)

Fighting Hellfish wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 9:20 PM

MLB Trade Rumors reports Paulino to the Phillies for minor league catcher Jason Jaramillo.

Fighting Hellfish wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 9:21 PM
Nickster wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 9:23 PM

Jal his era is not good it is aproaching five! with the way we hit we cant have pitchers out here giving them up and if jack wilson is gone and we are stuck with brian bixler that number will only go up!

DMac wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 9:24 PM

Thanks, DK.

I post mostly considering if I'd say what I write in front of my nephews...aged 7 and 9.

Okay, so I have to admit, I didn't think Bix would go anywhere, with all the trade talk about Jack...verrrrryyy interesting.  

DMac wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 9:33 PM

@NIckster...Respectfully, except for Maholm, none of the starters had stellar ERA's though.  At least Duke showed signs of turning it around toward the end of the season.  

I'm not trying to gang up on you.  I watched an awful lot of games this past season...Duke showed a lot of improvement, IMO.  

I sincerely hope that Kerrigan can keep that up and help Gorz and Snell as well.

Nickster wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 9:37 PM

DMac

i agree he showed signs of turning it around but i just dont see it ...i still think he gives up way to many hits that means that the batters are seeing his ball very well... the only thing that would completely turn it around for him would be an increase in velocity... and its funny because it seams like if you pitch for the pirates your velocity goes downhill.... hopefully kerrigan can fixed that

JAL wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 9:42 PM

Nickster

No disagreement that his ERA was too high this season--but it was still 2nd best on a bad staff.  If you take out his horrible July he was not that bad this season, which is where I see hope for the future.  

Take out 4 starts in July--which were horrible --and his ERA for the rest of the season was 3.92.  You don't throw 155 innings at 3.92 if you can't pitch.  

Think about that--4 starts from 3.92 for the season.  He started 31 games so that is 3.92 over 27 games. At his age it worth seeing what he do in 2009.  

Nickster wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 9:47 PM

OK JAL but on a good staff he would be considered a joke... and if he turns it around at best i think he will have a low to mid 4 ERA if im NH im trying to build a championchip team and you got to ask yourselves is Zack Duke a championchip caliber starting pitcher?

JHadar wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 9:48 PM

FWIW -- I think we got into a long period where JR was leaving starters in too long because the bullpen was worn out and not as reliable as it should have been.  That tended to raise ERAs.  

Capn wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 9:48 PM

There are 2 new threads, people.  And Paulino is gone to Phillies for Jaramillo.

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 9:50 PM

Nicker-  I wonder if pitchers can co-op what Linecicum does with his hips to increase velocity.  I know Ryan Madison made a slight adjustment to his mechanics and picked up about 4 mph.

Also, welcome to the asylum. It does take a little getting use to.

Nickster wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 9:52 PM

For what the mets are willing to offer for *** on foxsports.com we should ifffer for a little bit less for capps

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 9:57 PM

Jamie Moyer won a ring this year with the Phillies and won 16 games.  If Zack goes say 13-11, 4.30 ERA, 210 IP, 215 H, that is what you need in today's game out of a 4th (Paul, Ian, Jeff,) starter.  

I think the key this year is not to have your 2, 3, 4 combined at 4.20 ERA.  

Nickster wrote re: Winter meetings, Day 3: Pirates could make 'small' trade
on Wed, Dec 10 2008 10:03 PM

@WSB

from me playing college ball there are some pitchers that hide the ball very well that have decent speed but when i was at the plate it seemed like they are flamethrowers and zack duke hides the ball very well but if your only throwing in the mid to high eighties it doesnt matter how well you hide it in the majors it would get crushed... i am not a pitcher im a first baseman so i dont know much on pitcher mechanics but hopefully kerrigan can get duke to sit at 90-92 for him to be effective if he cant duke is worthless sorry.