Winter Meetings 2008, Day 2: Pirates talk to Eckstein; Braves ask about McLouth, Maholm

I'm sorry, DK, I can't stop laughing.  How could you expect anything less from Jack?  Now you just have to think of a way to get back at him...after you get a chance to catch a few zzz's.   ;-)

OK let's keep JW for 1 more year so that he can wake up DK again @ 2AM this time with room service from the entire menu...

LOL...Sorry DK that was just flat out funny...Can not wait until next yrs winter meetings.

As our good friend Baywatch would say:

*LMGluteusMaximusO!*

I thought that what happened in Vegas stayed in Vegas.

I reluctantly move over here because of those stupid ants.

I didn't even get a poke on the other thread.

Oh yeah, good morning, whatever.

@NuttingHostage: smoke and mirrors - as soon as I read the headline I knew you'd cackle and make use.

@the rest of you: everyone who advocates keeping all the guys that have any trade value right now,  hold up your hand. I'm taking names. Because if we go into 2009 - the season I HAVE PLENTY OF HOPE WILL BE ABOVE .500 - with the exact same lineup in the field, my hope is gonna dwindle in a hurry. And I'm going to glare at all of you the first time you wonder on this blog why .500 looks elusive again.

If we don't trade something of value, we will never know what we would have gotten. The assumption is because we are the Pirates, the trade will be to our detriment. Heck, this is a new era. A new admin. Maybe we will TOTALLY get a good deal. Ever think of that? Have ya? Huh? You all need to back away from NuttingHostages giant carton of angry tea and walk toward the light of hope. Believe that if we trade, we improve. If I'm wrong, I'll eat my words on this blog.

Maybe we need a BOGO sale on LaRoche's. Don't get all wiggy on me with "we haven't seen enough of Andy" yet. I know we haven't. I just want a better team.

Srsly.

POH - only if we trade Ryan...  : }

andy laroche will be good, i have no doubt about this....give the dude a chance to adjust and get some regular big league at-bats

Jack's great. Remember when it was so gloomy after the July trades, but then Jack emphasized about how he and the remaining players needed to pick up the spirits to welcome the new guys, and accentuate the positive. We need him around. That three-way trade Thunder is cooking up for us which would bring in Delmon Young, only seems to be asking for trouble. I don't know what Young did to have Ron Gardenhire say  that Young is finished with that team. But while in the Rays system, he of course assaulted an empire on two separate occasions.

Keep Jack. Trade the Jack haters.

There has to be more than me.

People who are wondering: "What the hell is taking these guys so long?"

Dave Littlefield would have been rooked out of these guys by the time he was asked to provide a credit card for incidentals.

I, for one, will miss Jack. and Freddie. and Adam. And whoever else they can peddle.

Maybe it's the old man in me. Maybe it's growing up in western PA. I like the guys that never get ahead. The woman that sticks by that loser. The kid that dreams of getting the hell out of the Eat n' Park kitchen. They're good people, you root for them because they're good people. But most of all they provide you constancy.

I can tell my kids go ahead and root for any one of them. They're all good people. Ain't one of them gonna charge you for an autograph, won't treat you like some sort of blue collar dog crap they stepped in, won't make you embarrassed to be a PBC supporter.

So they don't win the World Series year after year.

So what?

So they don't win the World Series at all.

I don't care.

No pennant. No problem.

Dream about this. If they break .500, this town will be bananas. How many cities can say they are happy to just win 1 more than half?

These guys drag their asses out of bed every day knowing that, chances are, they're going to lose. And yet every day there they are, usually with a smile, playing hard 161 games a year. Plus they talk to the fans and to Stan and Dejan and Rocco knowing that they're never going to be asked "How's the view from the top of the world?"

Hey, we can't win 'em all and some of us can't even win most. But that's just fine with me. Just shake a few hands, smile, tip your hat once in a while, and don't kill anybody. I don't ask any more of my ball team than I ask of my wife. Just stick by me and I'll stick by you.

You should send some "escorts" to his room to get him back.

DK - Have you heard anything about the Buccos kicking the tires on Matt Clement???  I heard that there is a good chance that they might sign him to a minor league deal.

Jose Linds Pants--hear, hear. You're not the only one. I'm a PBC fan, win or lose. Complaining might make me feel better, but it won't change anything, so why bother? Go root for your team, win or lose.

POH,

We all want a better team. A constant revolving door of players, especially with players who have any ability, is precisely what has gotten us the last 16 years of losing. Enough of that, already.

And please stop citing your soulmate's(a.k.a. BK)  nonsensical arguments. Just because we don't trade away the farm, doesn't mean we have to field the exact same team we finished up '08 with.

My prescription:  Have a REAL competion for the outfield corner spots. Moss, Nyjmo, Pearce and McCutcheon. Nate, of course, is inked in at center. McCutch only gets to take over in center IF he earns it while manning a corner position.

Have another competion at 3rd. Lil La, Walker, and yes, DD. He was thrown out there to play the position for the first time in his career, last year. Hence, a few adventurous throws. But regular play --if he beats out Walker and Andy-- should cure that. All of them are just keeping the seat warm for Pedro, anyway.

And if Adam stinks up the joint again during the first half, then by golly, platoon him with Pearce. Or put DD in THERE.

I only look to better things from Ryan in '09. Ditto Nate. Nate faded a little in the second half, before coming on strong again to finish the year. It was his first full year. Was to be expected.

And our middle of the infield in JUST FINE, all you haters! Freddy will be playing with two arms once again. If "Jack is Back!", we'll be in good shape.

The starting pitching is what doomed us, last year. THAT is where all the consternation should be directed. Not at tearing up the roots of all the seedlings we have on this team.

JL...the proposed trade I mentioned would NOT have the Pirates ending up with Young...he would go back to the Rays. We would get Sonnanstine or Jackson (pitchers). The Rays have expressed interest to the Twins in getting Young back.

JLP,

"...Just stick by me and I'll stick by you...."

I with ya on that, Pants. Unfortunately, I think it's only you and me who are sticking up for the lads. So many of the others are addicted to the cheap thrill of playing "The Trading Game." You'd think that after 16 years of sending players away, they too might want to try sticking by our guys, a little bit. But no. It's just SO FUN to play make-believe GM and start all the dysfunctional wheelin' and dealin'.

Thunder,

You are right! Sorry. Yesterday, some of us were speculating on a straight Jack-for-Delmon trade. In my attempts to rescue Jack from the clutches of the trade-mongers around here, I got confused. Again, sorry.

Your trade, if a trade must be made, makes the most sense for the Pirates. It still doesn't tell us what we'd do for shortstop in the future (let alone this year). But a team can never have enough pitching arms. I'd possibly have to bite my tongue if this were the trade NH was cooking up.

Casey Blake just signed. 3 years 17.1 Million.

You can't tell me the Bucs couldn't afford 6+ million for a power IF/OF type.

Being that the meetings are in Las Vegas, should we expect the unexpected.  Strange things do happen there.  

A number of years ago, I took the lovely Miss Pre- Bonifield to LV with me on a short business trip.  For a reason known only to my subconscious and without her knowledge, I brought our birth certificates.  

Two days after arriving we got married at the Little White Chapel of Love drive through window and the lovely Mrs Bonifield was born.

Las Vegas will always hold a special place in my heart.  Opie must know deep in his subconscious what players he will divorce or be wedded to this week.

JL <<"The Trading Game."

Trading JW or not isn't something that the Inmates of the Asylum get to vote on. We are only expressing our opinions. If the majority says one thing, that doesn't make the minority wrong.

You are only defending your opinion, not Jack, he will be traded (or not) regardless of what anyone says here.

casey blake isnt exactly a power type, but i hear ya...ladies and gentlemen of the blog, i've been a pirates fan all my life....even after i moved to florida when i was 12 and now live in SC.  i've tried changing teams just for the heck of it, but every year, i buy the MLB extra innings plan so i can see my pirates play. (if that's what its called)  i hope one day that the pirates win it all.....until then, i'll still route and yell at them every chance i get....i do like the direction this organization is headed...although i will still yell about the Bay trade...he was someone to build a team around..the rest, i dont really care.

Cave, unless they changed their name, I think you mean "The Little White Chapel. " The "of Love" part belongs to a place in Florida. I know the place you mean; live within walking distance!

And congratulations! Good to know this town has anchored a matrimonial union more enduring than Britney Spear's. (Sorry. Couldn't resist bringing her up. I'm sure you have your wedding compared to hers, or Dennis Rodman's, all the time.)

A few years ago — heck, a few _months_ ago — we wouldn't have access to this kind of story. Which, BTW, is probably better than what most papers publish about rumors. Thanks, Dejan!

Ken. Yes and no.

Mosty, yes, of course. But in a small way, I do feel that the feelings we ardent fans share, here, for all to see, are part and parcel of what FC and NH take in when gauging fan sentiment. And I, for one, don't want the only voices to be those of who don't want to keep our good players.

JL-

I am with you about Jack and Freddie.

I am not giving them away for nothing and when someone can show me where there is a better infield fit "that we can get" with these two gone, let me know what it is. I will not give away next year just to look at minor league talent, I am old school, I don't believe in bringing up 4 or 5 minor league players at a time, baseball is too complicated just to throw players out on a field that havn't played together. If anyone wants to know why we have been losing for 16 years that's ONE of MANY reasons, we don't keep enough good ballpayers long enough to jell. We got a lot good players in the draft, another good draft and the trades we made last summer and the system will be stocked. I havn't heard one player mentioned that we can get in trades that is any better than what we have now other than Sonnanstine or Jackson.

Hey AG! How have you, the Missus, and little Willi been?

Good post. I second it.

JL:  I'm not one to play "The Trading Game," as you've been calling it, but it has become abundantly clear that the Pirates are actively trying to trade him.  "Jack is gone" rumors have been flying for at least a year now; maybe there's something going on that we don't see from outside the team or outside the clubhouse.

Now, I can't believe that they would trade him just to say that they did something, and I'm not about to suggest that they should.  Far from it.  In fact, it's my belief that the other "trade Jack" types you've cited would be just as ticked as you or I would if JW gets traded for anything less than value.  This team HAS to start making good trades.  It HAS to.  And if we need to put our da-mn foot down and say, "Enough is enough!  We are not your AAAA team!" then so be it.

Unfortunately, I'm thinking that Jack is about as much a Pirate employee right now as Manny was a BoSox employee on July 29th last year.  At least in Jack's case, he doesn't appear to actively want out, but the desire of the PBC to trade Jack seems to be pretty close to Boston's desire to trade Manny.  Hopefully, like Boston, we'll get something legit in return.

Anyway, hope enough of that makes sense... Time for me to take a cleansing breath, methinks...

Casey Blake I don't think would be a good fit for the Pirates. And he wouldn't want to sign here anyways. Blake would just end up blocking a prospects progress.

JL - I'm going to comment directly to you this one time then I'm done.

I don't hate Jack. Very very far from it.

I'm not advocating trading seeds. I think Jack is on the seed bubble. I have my own idea of seeds, you have yours.

Halfway into the season is too late to say "oh, let's move Adam." Damage, done.

I have never advocated a revolving door. Never. Not in all my 30-plus years of following Pirate baseball.

As a fan ENTITLED TO MY OWN OPINION I think if we can get a 2009 piece of value in the majors for Jack through a two or three way trade, it might help. I know other names besides Jack might do the same thing.

I don't get to make these decisions but fine men and women have fought and died for this country and my right to have opinions. I'm not shy about using that right and you can't shame me from doing it.

I have my own mind. I'm not sure if you're saying I share some opinions with someone else just because I'm a girl or because you think I'm essentially not bright. Either way, I don't appreciate it.

JL <<Yes and no>>

Do you think that NH may be checking the blog during the winter meetings for trading ideas? Do you think that the voice of a few dozen blogers may alter his positions?

NH has to be too busy to take time out to check in with our opinions. With what little spare time he has, I would assume he spends it towards contact with family (maybe a show).

Sorry……at this point, we have no say, just opinions.

:-)

POH,

"...you think I'm essentially not bright..."

No, no, no. Not saying or thinking anything of the sort. You are a force of nature, POH. And I mean that in the best way. It's just that for the last two days, your opinions have becoming remarkably similar to BK's (and I've already been dueling with him). Since I called him your "boyfriend" yesterday, I figured I couldn't get away with that again. So today I called him your "soul mate." I could have as easily have said "Saimese twin separated at birth." But anyway, I was only having fun with that stuff and I won't do it anymore if it's offending you.

OF COURSE you have the right to your opinion. Okay, maybe I shouldn't have used the word "stop."  But just as I explained to Ken, I'm feeling it's increasingly imperative to get MY opinion out there, because in the marketplace of ideas / opinions, I don't want your opinions (not you, individually, POH; all the pro-trade / break up the team advocates) to carry the day. And I think that much is fair.

JL, Ugly:  Just 'cause I have to toss in two pennies...

I _hope_ NH has the strength of character, not to mention the baseball sense, to do what needs to be done, not what is popular.  I hope I am as wrong about the Bay trade as I was about the Tony Peña trade, but right now, in some small way, I'm glad they had the guts to do it.  Even if I and many others scream to the high heavens that it was a mistake, how could they do this to us, when oh WHEN will we ever hold onto a nucleus long enough for it to produce, etc, etc, etc...

I almost shared this on Sunday. And I have a little bit of a strange wedding location.

Mrs. Pants had always dreamed of going off and eloping at a Bed and Breakfast like on Newhart.

So I found the Inn that they used for Newhart. It's the Waybury Inn in Middleberry.

Anybody that's interested in our wedding photos, here's a link: www.flickr.com/.../page2

Mrs. Pants is the one dressed as Darryl.

@SirLochsby wrote re: Winter Meetings 2008, Day 2

on Dec 9, 2008 2:02 PM

"JL:  I'm not one to play "The Trading Game," as you've been calling it,..."

SirL I agree with what you wrote and feel the same way.  

@JL

Not sure where you get the "Jack haters" and calling us supporters of the "Trading game" from. I was not crazy about Jack when we got him in the beginning but he grew on me from my view outside of the clubhouse.

I like Jack and would not be upset if they keep him one more year.  The issue is that we are building for the future and we must trade him if and only if we get something in return that will help this club in the future.  

Maybe the money they save could be used to get that BAT they are looking for or a decent pitcher. One or two top tier prospects would be welcome as well.

So, if he is traded this year we do have BIxler. He should get a chance.  If they are not that high on him now then get one of the other FA SS out there in the meantime. I don't see keeping him if we can improve any position on this team in the next 2 or 3 years.

In an ideal world I would like to keep all of our players and have them retire a Pirate.  Just will not happen in todays world.

Bottom line, from most of what I have been reading is that we keep him IF we get nothing good in return. Other then one person I have not read where anyone hates him and wants him gone at all cost.

Ken,

No, I don't think this week we're even a blip on his radar. Even during the rest of the year, probably not much. Maybe a little more so with FC. But in the over all scheme of things, I do think that what we post on these threads counts towards the overall impression of what "the fan base is thinking." And even if none of this counted at all, in any way shape or form, towards how the fan base is perceived, I still would stick up for my posittions against the positions I disagree with. It's just a matter of principal. As I just posted to POH, I absolutely do not dispute her right, your right, or anyone's right to hold any opinion or idea.

Again, even if this has zero impact on front office impressions about us (and it well might come closer to zero than to anything significant), this is the arena of ideas. And I have my own ideas about what is important to the Pirates. So I'll argue on. I apologize for using the word "stop" to POH. It was more an argumentive figure of speech. As she clearly indicated, she's hardly going to cease voicing her opinion. And I wouldn't want it any other way. (Now, if I could just get her to make HER opinion MY opinion... ;-)   )

JL

I only want to say that we understand each others opinions. I understand you feel the need to get your opinion out there; however, sometimes there comes a point when the statement of opinions begins to look repetitive. We may be approaching that point.

It makes no sense to me about the urgency to trade JW.  We have no replacement, don't you usually deal from one strength to help out a weakness?

I'm not against blowing the PBC up, if we do it all the way, but peddling Jack makes no sense to me, just like now one of our needs is a right handed powerhitting outfielder, and I know I plagarize as many have said this before in this in this great asylum, but it just makes no sense unless its a salary dump and we are throwing away 09.

Mrs. of Lochsby and I went to a Vermont B&B for our 10th anniversary.  For those considering, it's a nice time.  Our trip was in late spring/early summer, a few weeks after Mud Season, and it was wonderful.  I had no idea how many uses there were for the humble maple...

It looks like the Cubbies may be needing a new closer...

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

Leadoff,

Thanks again, man. I appreciate it.  We that want to see what we have gel, UNITE!  

Sir L,

You do bring up the single most compelling reason for actually trading Jack. I've said before, that if Jack does get traded, I hope he can then at least enjoy his day in the sun. To me, the only good thing about the Jason Bay trade, was that a fine player and a fine individual got to finally taste success. And Jack has been stuck on the wrong side of the tracks far longer than Jason was.

Now, as for "maybe there's something going on that we don't see from outside the team or outside the clubhouse",  I actually have heard such inklings before. Without going into specifics, I'm familar with to what you allude. Still, I'm not sure I completely buy that. It's just too hard for me to swallow that Jack detracts from anything, or is a negative presence, in any significant way. Again, I reference my above post about the positive attitude Jack took when Bay and Nady were shipped out, and the fresh faces first show up.  Plus, after eight years of following Jack, can everything else we've seen and heard about him be so wrong?

Bizrow

Many/most of the major league teams are trying to cut salary in the face of the worst economic environment in decades. We aren’t the only ones this time. Detroit’s choice for SS speaks to that.

IF . . .

the Buccos get a player that will help the major league team FOR SURE in 2009 or 2010, I am for trading Jack and/or Freddie.

I have been boldly declaring here to NOT trade Jack Wilson, because I have yet to see any name thrown around in trade talks that fits those qualifications.  Sonnanstine if the first viable name.  I don't want a possible middle reliever or two AA players in return for major league starters.  I want to win in 2009, or move greatly toward winning in 2010.

We have NO viable replacement at short:  Wilson is so crucial in the development of our contact-throwing pitching staff.  It does Joe Kerrigan no good if he finally convinces our pitchers to throw the ball over the plate, and then Bixler or Cruz wave at the grounders from their stationary position as the ball goes by.

Fight the good fight, JL and Leadoff.

Come on, Good-n-Plenty:  don't hold back!  Tell us how you really feel!!

JL <<negative presence>>

Better to avoid that avenue right now. Especially if nothing actually happens trade wise. We don't want to be a source of nasty rumors.

:-)

Hi Mad.

"...Not sure where you get the "Jack haters" ..."

BK has been pretty rough on Jack (and even rougher on Freddy). Then this morning's lead question in the Q&A was dismissive of Jack. Plus all these trade-Jack-for-prospects comments have started weigh on me. So I decided to get up on my soapbox. I can see that I've rubbed some people the wrong way. People I consider friends. We're crossing swords on this particular matter. But I still consider us friends --even Fam-i-lee-- after all is said and done. Heck, as much as it will cause her to poke me in the eye when I say it, POH and I have been brother and sister ever since G-Man adopted both of us into his family!

Did not see this posted earlier--if so, sorry

Pirates shortstop Jack Wilson on his future: 'I have no idea'

latimesblogs.latimes.com/.../jack-wilson-on.html

I am not a JAck hater. I think he is a great guy. I also think he is part and parcel of the "culture of losing" we have dealt with the last forever number of years. He and Freddie are not the future of this ballclub. They are the past. Unquestionably the better part of a bad past but still the past. It is time to move them along and let the future begin. I would be thrilled to get a player who will be a big contributor in 2009 but I am afraid that is over estimating Jack and Freddie's real value, as opposed to the sentimental value we all place on them. If we can get two good youngsters who will contribute sometime in 2010 it needs to happen.

Ken,

Gotcha. 'Nuff said.

Groat,

Right on!

Okay All:

I have to bow out for a while. Again, sorry if I was offensive. I have to admit, I probably WILL use the "Trading Game" reference again, some time. It seemed to really make people do a double-take. But I'm not out to cause anyone any harm.  See you all in the evening!

JLP

Nice photos and congrats with many joyous years to follow. You look a natural in those 'shoes.

Uk - I understand your thoughts, but we can't keep giving away assets, hate to say that about a person, for little return.   If the PBC and NH have a plan, go for it, but I hope they don't make a move simply to make a move.  

I hate to use the word Ramirez, but imagine what we could have gotten for him, not saying same payback with JW or Freddie, but we need a good payback to build for future

The Hans Brinkers relegate the hated Manatees to second tier status.  

This could be the beginning of a very meaningful season.  

Wow POH, remind me to never make you mad.

I guess I'm one of the few who doesn't think it would be a bad idea to keep Freddy and Jack for another year or two, or until we see a couple real candidates to replace them.Don't get me wrong, if there's a exciting return for either of them, then by all means pull the trigger. I agree that our sentimental value with these two (especially JW) greatly outweighs their market value. I just don't think we should trade either one if the position doesn't get upgraded. If I made a list of the two positions in dire need of an upgrade, 2B and SS wouldn't be on it. Sorry, that's just my opinion........

"The Hans Brinkers"

Could this be an inroads into The Netherlands market?

Might they have someone over there, who's working on a curveball, the likes of which no one has seen since the last Hall of Fame worthy Dutch player, Bert Blyleven?

I offer, for your consideration, in return for The Brinkers' nasty curveballer, our team's best skater ... Nyjmo.

Bizrow

if we gave JW away for nothing in return (that won't happen).....it would be a better deal than Ramirez.....

Mets reached a deal with K-Rod

My last post and then I am hibernating until this is all over...

@JL--You need to spend some time and read the posts...

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: All smoke and mirrors

on 9 Dec 2008 1:46 AM

I wish him all the best and hope he goes to a contender and gets to taste what JBay did in Boston.

SEE YOU ALL NEXT WEEK!!!

In this case I would much rather go with the Devil I do not know, than the excessive losing Devil I do know

@JL

JL wrote re: Winter Meetings 2008, Day 2

on Dec 9, 2008 2:55 PM

Hi Mad.

"...Not sure where you get the "Jack haters" ..."

Sorry that one was from someone else my friend.

UK - LMAO on that one, so true.....

You know, DK is the best, PBC needs to do some contract extensions, I think the PG better look at that as well.

He writes like he's talking directly to you, a gift....

Dejan--anybody in the Cubs organization commenting about the IL Gov under arrest for, among other things, trying to influence their owners to fire some editors? For that matter, anyone in the journalistic end of it commenting?

I think the economy is going to make this the most inactive year of free agency, ever.  

Pirates might have to pick up prospects who don't even know their prospects yet and turn them into prospects.  You follow?  Didn't we get some AMAZING infield coach?  Better get him working a little harder.

"JeffT"   ---  I think we should initiate a citizens arrest of Dave Littlefield for crimes against Pirates fans for the atrocity of passing on soon-to-be-superstar Matt Wieters.  Anyone with me?

Fascinating -- DK says Bucs discussed deals with 8 teams yesterday and nothing happened.  Of course each club is trying to get the better end of any deal -- and I tend to agree that in the past we were considered a pushover, so deals that don't add up are probably being offered along with the  natural tendency to overvalue what you're selling and undervalue what you're buying.

The economy is probably the other factor.  Looks like a buyer's market out there and we'll probably see a late flurry of cherry picking -- maybe even on into spring training. It could just be laying the groundwork at this point.

ENOUGH ALREADY WITH THE JW TRADE TALK!!!!!!!!!!

EVERYBODY GETS MAD WHEN THEY MAKE A TRADE BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T GET "MARKET VALUE" FOR WHAT THEY GAVE AWAY, THEN YOU CRITICIZE NH FOR NOT MAKING A DEAL.

The Pirates do not have to trade ANYBODY this off season. NH is doing exactly what the previous 2 GM's should have done. You want one of our players, this is the price. The other 2 GM's were idiots and that is being too kind.

If JW is traded, NH is going to make these teams either give us some players of equal value, or get them to overpay as the previous 2 dummies did when they made trades.

Speaking of Jack Wilson's prank, does anyone know if the Pirates could actually trade Jack to a Japanese team? I guess they could. That really isn't funny or impossible. We could use a couple players from Japan. Make good use of the Northside Notch.

LarryZ--might be nice if we could've traded him to Siberia instead of JW (LOL). Alas, the crime against "humanity" that is the PBC fan base will go unpunished.

@Groat-

I have been boldly declaring here to NOT trade Jack Wilson, because I have yet to see any name thrown around in trade talks that fits those qualifications.  Sonnanstine if the first viable name.  I don't want a possible middle reliever or two AA players in return for major league starters.  I want to win in 2009, or move greatly toward winning in 2010.

I am with you one this one, you put it very well.

Wouldn't Eckstein also command something like $4-5 million. He's older than Jack too.  not a good move.  Jack is as good, has seniority and is a fan favorite.

Anyone else miss the Pirates Single A team move from Hickory to Charleston, WVA?

Bought my tickets to the All-Star game at State College, www.statecollegespikes.com

I see they still have some, in case you have the urge.

And Al Oliver not even close to getting in the Hall of Fame this year (dumb voters!!) ... you mean to tell me another 200 hit season is al that is holding voters back from putting in the HOF?  That's asinine and insane all wrapped up in one.  Oliver had almost 2,800 hits!!!  Any player who has ever had 3,000 hits is in the HOF.  I can't believe someone as close as Oliver is not been elected, simply because he close, but not close enough, to the 3,000 threshold.  HOF voters sometimes really tick me off.  

Is everyone serious?

Andy Sonnanstine? Do you really think the Rays would trade him? A young, major league proven pitcher, and all we would have to give up is a past-his-prime, cant-hit, defensive specialist?

Get real... I would have soiled linens if this happened... This is a very popular thing in this forum, over-valueing our own players.

I love Jack as much as the next person... but he's not Hanley Ramirez

David Eckstein smells a whole lot like Jeremy Burnitz etc.

@LarryZ

Do you think Oliver's lack of power and constant whining about his line drives being caught has held voters back? I think Scoops was a very good player, who was not Hall worthy, until you see some of the other players who are in. Maybe if he had been a Yankee instead of a Pirate, Expo, Ranger, etc then he'd get more backing.

"Bibby" - Yeah, and I think Oliver's non-desire to kiss the media's rear ends has a lot to do with it.  Al still had what, 230-240 HR's?  I hear a former Yankee waterboy is getting serious consideration for the 2010 HOF ballot :)  ....

is a contract offer to Eckstein a sign that we are close to dealing jw?

David Eckstein??? You've got to be kidding me.

Contact does not equal contract offer...

However, Eckstein!?!?! PUKE...give me Bixler instead

have not read a single post yet to this thread but, wanted to say that opening <its two am  jap...league>  sounds a bit like it was ghost written by JLP.

I rather take the other "Eck", Dennis Eckersley out of retirement, that Eckstein. Losing a 30 year old for a 33 year old player.  

Jersey Joe - I can't send you an email. It gets returned. I had a favor to ask.

Actually, JJ, from what I've seen and heard about Jack, it sounds like classic Jack.

Um...Eckstein?  Eww.  I think though it's just contact.  That could mean a lot of things.  We've just got to wait for DK to do his thing.  ;-)

LarryZ   I'm right with you. Littlefield needs to be locked up for cruel and unusual punishment to us fans.

JLP<is dressed as dryll>

Which deryl?

JLP<is dressed as dryll>

Which drlyl?

While I am an Al fan, let's be careful we don't pooh-pooh Joe Gordon -- lots of infidels.....eh...er....people didn't think that Maz belonged in the HOF, and while Gordon may not have been much of a fielder, he was named to nine ASG's in 11 yrs, won the 1942 AL MVP and hit 253 HRs, a pretty good total for a second bagger.  Plus, he played in six WS and served his country during WWII, missing the 1944 and 1945 seasons in the process -- years in which he likely would have amassed solid numbers.

@Dmac - <Um...Eckstein?  Eww.  I think though it's just contact.  That could mean a lot of things.  We've just got to wait for DK to do his thing.  ;-)>

I feel the same way you do.

Logan, Dybsinski, Pedrique, now Eckstein?

JJ: <Which Daryl?>  I think he meant Hannah.

Someone tell me what's "eww" about Eckstein.

@irate - "ENOUGH ALREADY WITH THE JW TRADE TALK!!!!!!!!!!"

I love it when Irate bus (Yeah, Bus, like Bettis!) through the swiveling saloon doors to set us straight! You is preachin' to da choir now, Irate!

Drunken Pirate - Good to see your Bellish mug back in here!

Thanks Bay

I'd rather Jack stay than have Eckstein.  Maybe it's just my overall dislike of the Cardinals that spills over onto him.

Eckstein...

...is like that little ugly kid on the playground that nobody wants on their team because a) he is ugly as sin, and b) he sucks.

Good thing the Pirates like players like this....

Hopeful One,

Eckstein signed with Toronto as a free agent last season.  They desperately needed help at both 2nd base and shortstop last year {and still do, if you noticed the blurb in Dejan's post}, but the Blue Jays ended up benching him because he had no range and was hurting the team.  He ended up being sent at the trading deadline to the Diamondbacks (when they were still in 1st Place) to play 2nd for their wounded player, and Eckstein proceeded to bat .219.

I loved—still do—his grit and will to win, but he can no longer perform as a major leaguer.  As I have said before, I'd rather another team prove me wrong, than have the Pirates take a chance.

Let's keep what we know we have!

sign eckstein to a one year deal, allowing him to be stop-gap and keeping the pirates rebuilding plans in perspective.

it's exactly the approach that ray shero gets lauded for by penguins fans--signing dependable veterans to short-term, affordable deals while allowing room for youth in the system to grow.

also, considering the recent rumors of the braves being interested in maholm, snell, or mcclouth...getting yunel escobar along with other prospects for any of those would certainly provide the buccos with a reliable option at short for years to come.

also, is it too much to ask for less nonsensical chit-chat and inside jokes on this forum? i appreciate the community vibe, but let's talk baseball fellas...

CullenH - that was funny. I don't see the ugly factoring in.

However, there can be value placed on a championship mentality/experience. I'm not sure how much value goes into that category, but the guy has played October. Was WS MVP so he can't suck as bad as all that. It's in him. It could be a short term (1-2 year) fix until Cruz is ready, or Bix. I prefer Cruz, but still, until one of them is ready.

Re: McLouth and Maholm:  I think Atlanta "asking" about Nate and Maholm is like Neal asking Walt Jocketty about Pujols...

*taking deep, calming breaths*  Okay, Atlanta can inquire about Nate and Paul all they want...but hopefully they can't have them, right?  

SirL - exactly. Who wouldn't want to add those two? We better get Pujols, Longoria, Sabathia and the first base coach of the Tigers for them.

Willie Wonka-fied,

Eckstein did not work for the Blue Jays last season.

Eckstein did not work for the Diamondbacks last season when given a second chance.

What leads you to believe that he would work for the Bucs?  He's not 2/3 as good as Jack Wilson.  Take Opie not just giving Wilson away as a good omen.

I'd go with chancing Brian Bixler before Eckstein.

By the way, you left out the fellettes.

PoH-

The ugly does factor in bc we are the ones that have to look at him while he is on the field... deters me from coming to the park...

The 06 WS was weak, he was chosen for lack of a better option, if I remember correctly...

And see Groat's comment above about his ability to still play...

Enough said... we really don't need this guy...

@Dmac - <Okay, Atlanta can inquire about Nate and Paul all they want...but hopefully they can't have them, right?>

DMac, I trade them if the price is right. I would make the Braves overpay to get them. If they don't want to pay the price, then they don't get them.

The Pirates need to start making revcerse Littlefield trades. Meaning we rob the other teams and make them overpay for our players.

@DK - "Imagine the return necessary to do something like that (broker a deal for Maholm and/or McLouth), and stay realistic."

DK, thanks for your kind words of caution. But let me remind you of this ... The good people of the asylum are not in there for "staying realistic!"

I liked Eckstein 3-4 years ago. He might be able to play 2nd but his shortstop days are definitely over. Even when he was good, his throws from short to first were maximum effort to get anything on the throw.

Any trade with the Braves is highly unlikely to bring Yunel Escobar to the Pirates. The Braves shipped a good shortstop prospect to Texas for Teixeira in 2007 and just sent another shortstop to the White Sox (cannot think of his name but the Braves got in in the Adam LaRoche deal). An interesting discussion regarding McLouth and/or Maholm but it seems unlikely to lead to a trade.

@DMac--*taking deep, calming breaths*  Okay, Atlanta can inquire about Nate and Paul all they want...but hopefully they can't have them, right?  

I don't see the point in trading Nate or Paul right now, I did ask DK on an earlier post if he discussed with Neal the contract negiotiations concerning Nate, Paul and Ryan but I have not heard from him yet.

Huh... that is interesting...

Jurrgens and Escobar would probably be in... fun to speculate at least...

Quite frankly - trading McLouth and Maholm now - might make sense.  Nobody is going to give you a great return for Jack - downhill side of his career and expensive.  Now - McLouth and Maholm - young, cheap, potential upward potential.  That will get you something.

At some point - you have to trust that Neal and his crew will evaluate the talent and make the proper decisions.  Perhaps they believe McLouth peaked this year and will never be worth more?  Could be the same with Maholm?  

I am not advocating trading them - but for once - a package like that might actually return top notch prospect talents....yet unproven.

if the team is deciding to rebuild, rebuild all the way and chalk up this season as a loss. if jack wilson gets 20 more hits than eckstein over the course of the season, it's not going to make a difference in the grand scheme of things.

If nothing else, eckstein could serve as a reliable utility infielder while we start bixler/cruz at short. we can discuss SABRmetrics or split hairs over wilson's true value to a baseball team, but ultimately, barring a miracle, the pirates are not going to be a winning team this year.

continue to rebuild the system with prospects. telling ourselves over and over again that the pirates can compete with the roster they have now isn't going to make it happen.

Thank you for your answers  re: Eckstien. When someone makes "gag me with a spoon" noises and I don't know why, I ask.

@BK: <<The good people of the asylum are not in there for "staying realistic!">> and I follow with "MUA HA HA HAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

@Stonebro...

Good point about Maholm and McLouth... I can see that they have both already hit pretty damn close to their ceiling... imagine the talent we'd get back...

DK:  <Happens all the time.>  What is the usual course of action, though?  Does Atlanta call and say, "What would it take for us to get McLouth or Maholm?" or do they call with an offer?  Or is it really as simple as, "You've said no one is untouchable.  Do you really mean it?  What about <insert name here>?"

GM drops sponsorship of Pirates

www.bloomberg.com/.../news

if maholm and or mclouth get traded for anything less then the very best prospects the braves have then neal huntingdon is worse then littlefield

OK, off the top, I'm sayin' we better get Jurrgens (and I don't think he would completely replace Maholm), the 41-year-old Smoltz, Gonzo comes back, we get Chipper Jones (and let AnLa play on Sundays) ... their shortstop Escobar and about a half-dozen of their best minor league prospects.

Would that still make a difference? I mean, hey, this is the first time I've given serious thought to movin' on without these guys ... that's some pretty heavy stuff.

I can see the Braves especially trying to get Maholm. They really want to upgrade that pitching staff and I think they are going to come up short in the Burnett sweepstakes.

I think any team trading for both McLouth and Maholm (or similar players) would risk weakening their farm system too seriously. That happened to Detroit last year when they traded for Cabrera and Willis. The Diamondbacks probably gave up too much for Dan Haren. The Mariners definitely gave up too much for Bedard. It would probably take 4 decent prospects to get both Maholm and McLouth. The Braves are supposed to have a good system but that would still be a hit.

Irate...It would have to be a mind-blowing  return -- somewhere along the lines of PoH's suggestions.

DK...Did they tell Atlanta that Duffy is available?  :-)

Jack = the man.  He will be missed by many...

Eckstein - I wouldn't mind him.  I've liked watching him on other teams, and he wouldn't be a bad guy to have... although he's past his prime.

Paul, Nate to Atlanta - For the right price.  I want to start stealing other teams players.  I'd hate to see Nate be a one-hit wonder, but if he's traded...

If there is a trade with the Braves, hopefully we can rob them blind ala the reverse Littlefield, especially since they moved their AAA team from Richmond (only chance to see Indianapolis play).  Realistically, we will trade Jack for some minor league prospects (AA at best) and sign Eckstein for a year to get Bixler, Cruz, traded AA player ready, and then we start again.  Unfortunately, Wilson is too expensive and too far into his contract to warrant much return.  

I would love to keep Jack, and see him restructure the contract with Pittsburgh as he suggested he would do for Detroit and LA.  Won't happen, but I can dream.

Also, I agree with a prior comment about limiting th chit chat and inside jokes.  They are funny when you are on the inside, but unless you guys are trying to make this an exclusive club let's talk more baseball.  Thanks.

GetWonkafied - Welcome to the Asylum! You've jumped into the fray at an excellent time ... Let's Go Bucs, Give 'em Hades, Neal!

Dmac - Like I said, If we get more than we give away, make the trade. If the Braves say no, then they get nothing.

As much as I'll hope for *success* next season, I feel very little will actually get me excited in the offseason...  I just don't see the team winning.  Is that bad?

Willie Wonka-fied,

I'm not really as concerned about 20 hits on offense  .  .  .  

I am concerned about the development of our young pitchers.  They need the most solid infield we can provide in this most important year of their development under Joe Kerrigan.  Jack Wilson provides our best option at turning the double play, making outfield relays, and giving confidence to the pitchers that if they induce a ground ball, there's a great chance it will turn into an out [or two]!

Did you see the first two months of last year while Wilson was hurt  .  .  .  .  No wonder the pitchers had no incentive to throw the ball over the plate!

A Top 10 fielding shortstop is more essential to a club like the Pirates this year than an American League-style shortstop.

I'm surprised more teams haven't asked for either of those two. Never hurts to ask. I hope Neal asked St. Louis for Pujols. Again, never hurts to ask! DK - bring that up tonight in the briefing, okie dokie?

Welcome all new posters!

the braves seem pretty content on holding on to their top-tier prospects...i certainly can't imagine hanson, heyward, or schafer in a deal...

i'd imagine they'd try to throw kelly johnson or yunel escobar at us, along with some lower tier prospects for maholm/mcclouth.

and i also think mcclouth has pretty well reached his ceiling, but i'd love to be proven wrong. but he was a prospect that never showed any power potential, and is never going to bat for an outrageously high average. assuming his power isn't a fluke or (god forbid) a result of some sort of banned substance, i'm guessing he averages over the next few years something like .275/.330/.700.....good, but not outstanding, and by the time we have a reasonable chance of contending, he will be arb eligible and on his way out anyways...

Cullen: <I can see that they have both already hit pretty damn close to their ceiling>

That's odd. I see McLouth as a 26 year old player, entering his fourth season, with a trending upward IN EVERY MAJOR OFFENSIVE STATISTIC (G, AB, R, H, 2B, 3B, HR, RBI, AVG, OBP, SLG, OPS, HECK EVEN BB/K RATIO).  Ummm...  I have no CLUE what they have that we'd want.  We'd pretty much need to get their entire team back in the trade.  I'm thinkin' Jurrjens, Hudson, Chipper, and McCann...  And Atlanta pays for Chipper. And I McCann gets put at first, or backs up Doumit, or gets spun for more talent.  Srsly.

And I just looked this up.  McLouth's raw numbers and his trends are better now than Aramis's were when he was shipped to the Cubs.  Think about that.

Getwonkafied - Good points about McLouth, but I don't see him as having reached his ceiling ... there was something about that swing ... it's so sweet, and I think it's going to be getting sweeter for quite some time. And his speed is a real plus on a team of flat-foots like the Pirates.

But you make good points about him being arb eligible in the not too terribly distant future.

mcclouth is a year older than ramirez was when we traded him, plus mcclouth never showed the type of promise or talent that ramirez had throughout his minor league and professional careers.

mcclouth's number could very well be an aberration, a complete fluke. i'm not saying they necessarily are, but i wouldn't be surprised to see his numbers return to the mean next season..

Okay, first, an admission.  I probably went overboard in my trade demands.  But maybe not too far...

Second-- arbitration eligible?  Lock 'im up for four or five years, then!  Make a long-term deal at a reasonable rate.  I'm not talkin' 7, 8 mil a year.  Maybe four years at about 3.5 average?  5 mil average?  Dunno. I haven't done salary checks lately, but 15-20 mil over four years provides some cost certainty for a key player.  Or, if you're worried about backsliding, go year to year and worry that, if he doesn't backslide, you'll owe him even more, which you may not afford, but you'll not have overspent a la Kendall...

This place really is an asylum!

Now that Atlanta loosely brings up McLouth and Maholm all of a sudden "Nate has reached his ceiling" and whatnot?

Last time I knew McLouth was only 26 and a core piece of our future!?!

Getwonkafied: <mcclouth never showed the type of promise or talent that ramirez had throughout his minor league and professional careers.>  A very valid point; one that I had not taken into my equation...

<i wouldn't be surprised to see his numbers return to the mean next season..>  But I'm not sure that there's a mean established to which he would return.  I really do see upward trends in all of his numbers [1], and he is still under 30, so I see him as improving next year.  My opinion, from which yours certainly may vary (*g*), is that maybe something clicked, that he finally "got it," and that, despite a less than stellar minor-league track record, he's turning into a stud major leaguer. (Sort of the anti-JVB, if you will).

[1] www.baseball-reference.com/.../mclouna01.shtml

I actually totally agree with trading McClouth right now. This is why the Marlins win and we don't. We hold onto veterans too long. We cannot compete like the big market teams and no one until now understands that. You sell high. Personally I would not trade Paul M, but I would trade Nate. Especially after him winning a gold glove.

Jair Jurrjens, rhp, Yunel Escobar SS and Tommy Hanson RHP would be nice.

Iceman - LMAO. Exactly. DK, if he were less ethical or at least more of a funner, would just start typing names in there to watch this place go wiggy.

@jbrindger--for Nate, that sounds like a great return; i might drop hanson for one of their OFers (Heyward, Schafer) and doubt they'd give up Escobar (or even Jurrjens) but if we got jurrjens, escobar and an OFer i'd be pretty happy

yea that seems like quite the return for an outfielder and a pitcher (seeing as jurrjens has about the same track record as maholm and is younger, at least im pretty sure of that)...

Folks, it's gettin' kind of hot and stovey in here! I gotta run out and see a little girl sing with her Christmas concert choir, and I already can't wait to get back to see if anything happens. Appreciate all the comments.

i would want jurrijens escobar for sure(but i doubt the braves will aprt ways with either)and at least one of their top 2 pitching prospects and at least a top hitting prospect.......AT LEAST

i would want jurrijens escobar for sure(but i doubt the braves will aprt ways with either)and at least one of their top 2 pitching prospects and at least a top hitting prospect.......AT LEAST

"We hold onto veterans too long"

What?  McClouth is 26 years old.

jbrindger: <We hold onto veterans too long.>  Perhaps, in other cases, you might be right.  I'm trying to think of examples to bolster your comment, but I'm having trouble finding them.  In all seriousness, could you help me out?  Sorry if that comes of insincere.  Hard to hear my tone of voice in type.  I'm really just struggling trying to think of vets that we've developed and then held on to for too long.

On the other hand, since Nate is the current point of discussion, I will respectfully disagree.  He has been in the majors for three seasons. (and a quarter of a fourth, but his first "full" season was only two-thirds of a season, so..  yeah.)  While he may be veteran in that he is no longer a rookie, he certainly is not a veteran in the FA eligible or "10 and 5 player" kind of mold.  Even Florida holds onto "veterans" with McLouth's kind of experience.

Find a core and build around it.

And maybe I'm missing it, but how is Jurrjens and Escobar (am I asleep on him?) better than having McLouth and Maholm?

On the Braves board they say no way will they part with this

Tommy Hanson kid.  Apparently they wouldn't even trade

him for Peavy.

www.ajc.com/wireless/content/sports/braves/stories/2008/11/13/atlanta_braves_tommy_hanson.html

Any chance a McLouth/Maholm package could pry away that sweet swinging Adam LaRoch......oh wait.

Hey just joined this site my opinion of the pirates is that they are too unwilling to trade until they have to trade.  What do you think we would have gotten for Oliver Perez if we were to trade him after that great year in 2004?  Or Jason Bay after the year he started in the all star game?  Or even Kendall before he broke his leg?  If we keep mcclouth or maholm and they play terrible next year it can hurt us for years to come

McLouth, to me, would be about as untouchable as any play could be.  

we need to build around McLouth,Maholm,and Doumit and we have some other pieces coming through the system in Tabata,McCutchen,Alvarez,and Walker in my opinion in a year or two an outfield of McLouth,McCutchen,and Tabata with Walker at third Alvarez(if he converts positions which i think he should)at first and Doumit at catcher sounds like a pretty good lineup to me,well that is if Doumit and McLouth keep up what they did last year and the others turn into the players everyone says they will

we need to build around McLouth,Maholm,and Doumit and we have some other pieces coming through the system in Tabata,McCutchen,Alvarez,and Walker in my opinion in a year or two an outfield of McLouth,McCutchen,and Tabata with Walker at third Alvarez(if he converts positions which i think he should)at first and Doumit at catcher sounds like a pretty good lineup to me,well that is if Doumit and McLouth keep up what they did last year and the others turn into the players everyone says they will

Baseball America's top 10 Prospects for The Braves:

www.baseballamerica.com/.../265139.html

Individuals milb link

1. Jordan Schafer, of

web.minorleaguebaseball.com/.../stats.jsp

Synopsis:

Power guy with rediculous OB+Slugging in Mexico

2. Jason Heyward, of

web.minorleaguebaseball.com/.../stats.jsp

Synopsis:

five tool freak right fielder. hit 14 bombs at a low level stole some bases

3. Jair Jurrjens, rhp

major leaguer now

nuff said, probably not trade bait although maybe ATL wants a lefty.

4. Brandon Jones, of

web.minorleaguebaseball.com/.../stats.jsp

Synopsis: had a horrible year at AAA, think neil walker only this guy is 25 and was supposed to have a higher ceiling. A deal featuring him is something to be scared of, although as a throw in this guy might be a good fit.

5. Gorkys Hernandez, of

web.minorleaguebaseball.com/.../stats.jsp

Synopsis: young speedy centerfielder. had a horrible time in the carribean league

6. Brent Lillibridge, ss

web.minorleaguebaseball.com/.../stats.jsp

Synopsis: Made the majors, but his time in AAA was not as impressive this year as last year where he made a splash in Richmond. I would say buyer beware. Fear this man returning

7. Cole Rohrbough, lhp

web.minorleaguebaseball.com/.../stats.jsp

Synopsis: Power Lefty Starter, high ERA though, but low walks and high Ks... strange

8. Jeff Locke, lhp

web.minorleaguebaseball.com/.../stats.jsp

Synopsis: horrible win loss, ERA not dominating, but he was their 2nd round pick in 06 has won some awards and has good K ratios

9. Tommy Hanson, rhp

web.minorleaguebaseball.com/.../stats.jsp

Synopsis: This guy is a friggin stud. Ks are off the charts, ERA is impressive, named best pitching prospect last year in the South Atlantic League. No clue how he is this low on their list. I would love to get this guy.

10. Julio Teheran, rhp

No clue why this guy made it 6 starts in Rookie ball with terrible results. Prolly has to do with being born in 1991.

Others from research:

Matt Young - stole 30 bases in AA, but is 26

web.minorleaguebaseball.com/.../stats.jsp

Todd Redmond - remember him? this guy was their best pitcher at AA

web.minorleaguebaseball.com/.../stats.jsp

Luis Valdez - AA closer decent numbers is 24 though

web.minorleaguebaseball.com/.../stats.jsp

Tyler Flowers - High A catcher with some serious Pop.

web.minorleaguebaseball.com/.../stats.jsp

Willie Cabrera - hit some homers at high A, but is kind of a push to call a prospect.

web.minorleaguebaseball.com/.../stats.jsp

Scott Diamond - best pitcher by far at high A. Lefty starter with rediculous numbers. web.minorleaguebaseball.com/.../stats.jsp

Ok I gotta stop, DK has probably already annouced this isn't going to happen

Wow, frustration is setting in--all over the internet I read that this team did this, that team did that and that the Pirates 'have made contact with Epstein'. AND as far as the Braves' interest in Nate and Paul M, what team isn't interested in these guys. If the Braves think they can get these guys for a song, they'll try. Of course, this was just a 'probe' to see what the Bucs want for these guys. More than likely the Braves will shoot down what the Pirates ask in return.....

I could imagine Huntington possibly trading McClouth if he gets a great offer, but I just can't see him getting rid of his only "sure thing" pitcher.  Corner outfielders are much more replaceable than No. 1 or 2 pitchers.

You guys are missing the point.  The only player we should keep is Doumit because I think he will have a monster year and enhance his trade value.  We never had legit prospects all come around the same time like i think we will see with alvarez mccutchen tabata walker dont forget about moss and andy laroche too... if we can get escobar and a two legit pitching prospects for mcclouth and maholm then we have a serious chance in a few years of contending if not then your going to have three or four good players on a  average team that are going to get traded in 5-10 years like we have been doing for twenty years!

very true meestro especially with McCutchen and Tabata in the system

The C, Flowers, was traded to CHW i believe.

Also, i wasn't speculating Nate and Paul for escobar, jurrjens and more, i was saying nate for those 2 and maybe one other guy.

Nickster: First off, welcome!  Secondly, the only real qualm I have with your examples is that they come from previous "administrations." (I'd also prolly debate your examples, but "welcome" takes precedence!)

the catcher went to the white sox thanks Yotum

I like the point about trying to time prospects development to arrive at the same time.

Right now -- I just want the season to start.  Speculation is fun but I want to see them on the field.

SirLochsby... Think about it when was the last time we had prospects with the potential that they have...walker alvarez tabata mccutchen daniel mccutchen and for the first time in a long time we have a guy that has the potential to be a number 1 starter in the bigs i forget his name for some reason but its the guy we got from the dodgers in the bay trade  maholm duke gorzo were all projected to be number 3 starters at best... those are the players to build around not the ones we have right now. and thanks for the welcome

ok i got it mclouth for jurrijens escobar and another prospect and in a year or two listen to this team Doumit catching Alvarez at 1st Sancez at 2nd Escobar at SS Walker at 3rd OF-Tabata,McCutchen,and Moss Maholm,Jurrijans,Gorzo,and Snell(if the last two can get back to what they use to be)in rotation and Capps at back end of bull pen sounds good to me!

The talks start with Heyward and Hanson for Nate and Paul. Have them include Kelly Johnson and we'll send them Sanchez.

It really is a good sign if Neal is at least listening to offers for everyone. I agree that trading Nate and Paul would require a huge return but if the Braves are desperate to compete NOW and are willing to give up the future this would be the type of trade that could turn our PBC around quickly.

One more thought on Eckstein, although his production shoild be questionable at best he would bring the same familiarity with winning that our man Doug brought to the clubhouse last year.

someone dig up some prospects we could get from Minnesota for Wilson

Let's face it, the Huntington rebuilding plan is underway.  Like DK said, if you can't build a team around a Jason Bay, why are Nate and Maholm "untouchable."  Huntington doesn't have any emotional investment in any of these players.  He didn't draft them or trade for them.  He has been weeding out Bonifay and Littlefield players one by one and I see no end in sight.    

Let's not get ahead of ourselves.  I look for a rule 5 pick up this week and not much more.  There won't be any major acquisitions of free agents, maybe a bench player or two, but probably not.  The big names are still on the board, the market yet to be set by the Yankees, Red Sox, Mets and other big spenders.  Neal is at the end of the line, waiting for table scrap players to fall off after the "alpha GM's" get real players to improve their teams.  I wonder why the Pirates have lost for 16 consecutive seasons?  It couldn't be trading away productive major leaguers for those prized PROSPECTS and signing meaningless free agents?  Could it?  NAH, I must be thinking of another team that hasn't won 82 games or more for 16 straight seasons.  Let's see, there are the Pirates, and, um..............hold on, its coming to me............  Shhhhooooot, I can only think of the Pirates.........

marty34156... love the idea but we would have to throw in maholm to get those guys and the starting rotation looks shakier than a fat girl on a balance beam

@ Marty - That would be nice if people play as expected...

IDK Stargell do you really want KElly Johnson over Freddy Sanchez

"the starting rotation looks shakier than a fat girl on a balance beam" quote of the year nickster hahahahahahahahahaha

To everyone wanting Atlanta's pitching prospects...

In the past 20 years just how many do you think they have traded away?

They ADD pitching prospects not SUBTRACT!!

Well iceman if the braves wont trade any pitching prospects for nate mcclouth and maholm then NH should slowly raise his middle finger at the braves gm

Got to jump in for moment on McLouth

You never know when a players best year will happen but to say McLouth has hit the ceiling is nothing but an opinion with no support.  In A+ he hit .300, in AA he hit .322, in AAA .297 so this year's average is not odd and it would not be a surprise he hits even higher for a few years.  His power is not out of whack either--he had slugging average over 460 twice in the minors.    His age is right where  many players start the prime years.  

Clemente did not hit more than 7 HR  in season until age 25 (after 5 seasons up) when he hit 16--he never hit under 10 again.

Nate may never hit as well again but the odds say he will get better rather than worse.

allarmy-retired:  Good to see you again.  BTW--  I'd be interested to hear your take on trading McLouth or Maholm.  "Trading away productive major leaguers," or a smart move as part of a comprehensive rebuild around Alvarez, Tabata, and the "Brothers" McCutchen?

Marty,

Sure do. Johnson provides some pop at the 2b position. He's a 282 .362 .451 .813 in his young career and is under control for only 430k. He was hurt last season, but when he came out in the second half, he showed what he can be maturing into. He would feast on the short LF porch too. He even has some speed too. To me, he's the kind of guy that can hit second and help this line-up moving forward. I think he's not only better than Sanchez going forward, I think he's better than a 100% healthy Sanchez, at the plate, in the field and on the bases.

From earlier:

"Name one veteran we have held onto too long"

Jack Wilson

Kelly Johnson or Freddy Sanchez....

Sanchez

JAL: <Nate may never hit as well again but the odds say he will get better rather than worse.>  And I agree.  So, playing GM, is there a price that you could set for McLouth that the Braves would be able to meet, let alone willing to meet?

My first reaction to the news that the Braves asked about both Nate and Paul was visceral.  Then I saw that DK said to calm down.  I've tried and haven't succeeded.  It's the Braves.  They can so easily play with my mind.  They still want to take what's ours.  I can't seem to get past it.  I don't care who they have.  I just want them to stay away.

yeah i still have to go sanchez when healthy you know he'll hit at least .310('06 healthy all year hit .346? i believe '07 started year hurt but when he was healthy hit like .330 last year second half again when healthy hit .320ish i believe)and the last few years hes shown he can hit for some pop and he is above-average defensively

Another thing:  until I've seen some evidence of real trading acumen on the part of management, I'm not ready to see them trading any more of the best players the Pirates have.  Last season's trades still need to be evaluated - the Bay trade, particularly.

Nickster,

I hope NH is getting that finger warmed up because I have no doubt that he will ask for the moon for either one or both of McLouth and Maholm.

At least I hope.....

Sir L and Iceman, thanks for holding down the fort. JAL, excellent time to "jump in." The silly season has definitely arrived, because some of the comments I see can only be classified as SILLY, to put it kindly.

On another point, for those of you who are just showing up, WELCOME ABOARD. We do have a nice little culture here, though. Please refrain from telling us not to be ourselves, or to not chit-chat, etc. I wouldn't stroll into your living room and do the same. Anyone is welcome to join in, anytime though. Anytime.  Just for you newbies:

www.youtube.com/watch

JAL,

Thank you sir.  I was hoping you would jump in with exactly those stats!!

I don't think McLouth & Maholm are going anywhere. If I recall, Ned Coletti was "exasperated" by the asking price for Jack Wilson, so the Dodgers are no longer interested. My guess is that NH heard the Braves & said "OK, let's start with Chipper Jones & work from there."

I would take Johnson for Sanchez straight up.  Now, unfortunately, that trade isn't being offerred, but I'd take it in a heartbeat.  Johnson over the last two seasons has been about the same as Freddy's last two _healthy_ seasons.  The main difference is that Johnson is four years younger than Freddy, and thus is cheaper, and likely to have room for improvement.

Cullen H........perez kendall one could argue bay because if you think about it if NH would have pulled the trigger on last years winter meeting deal with the indians we would have a cy young  pitcher, hell what if we were to trade sanchez after his batting title? how about duffy when he was a "rookie phenom" we could have gotten a proven player for him... i can go on if you want me to.

Note to the room, re: <about the same >  I used OBP and SLG, not AVG.  Clearly, Freddy's avg's are better.  Sorry for any misunderstandings...  And I still stand by the rough equivalence...