Tigers make fresh offer for Wilson

The first domino falls!  Curious to see what the return is.  Not to mention the other signings this may affect.

Can't say I'll miss em.... curious to see the return though.

Sad day in our house as Jack was my wife's favorite player...

Pray for me, guys, it's going to be rough when she finds out!

The first domino indeed.....this could be a very interesting winter.

My sympathies Bucco Joe...

Good player that didn't complain, baseball needs more of his type.

My son just read the headline.  He's still a JW fan, but he says he likes all the PIrates, so it's okay with him.

Oohhh boy.  If this is true, I'll miss Jack very much.  

And UK...you're right, it's going to be an interesting winter.

Echo Bucco Nation - I am not going to hear 'jumpin jack flash' blaring over the speakers 4 times a game this year.  I became less and less of a fan of his the last few years - seems like he was always diving for balls just out of his reach, not so much to get them, but to show how 'hard he played'.  I think this playing hard stuff is nonsense -play effectively!

Get a couple legit prospects and I'll be thrilled.  Someone send the hitting coach and infield coach to Bixler's house for the next month.

OK......not so fast.....he ain't gone yet.

Still something might be up

This is getting interesting, and I don't mean that necessarily in a good sense. It reminds me of the (first) Pedro Álvarez' signing.

Okay, so FC says no trade...yet.

I forgot about the limited no-trade clause, though I know I read about it somewhere else.

Thanks for the updates, DK!

Ken

Good post--yes, the story says that FC denied the trade was made.

With all due respect to the veterans, if this trade goes through, they need to trade/non tender anyone making big money and move on.

Don't rely on anything coming from a New Jersey newspaper.

Here the latest from Detroit

www.freep.com/.../81204057

Hey guys, IMO, I think it is a done deal and all they need is Jack's approval and they have to get that. Somebody jumped the gun and announced it before Jack gave his ok.

No means no. I would think Mr. Coonelly would be "a person familiar with the deal" that trumps whoever the Detroit paper used as 'familiar with the deal." Can't get any closer to familiar that Mr. C himself when it comes to a Pirate deal.

Thanks for updating, DK.

Rich

Thanks for chiming in on the topic--drop in anytime

Mark it as a done deal.  All that is needed is Wilson's okay, which will happen.

It got leaked early, you'll hear more later.

I bet this is a "done deal" by tonight. I just got off the phone with a friend in Ann Arbor. She said her husband heard about this on their local sports talk radio. Who knows where they get their info, but this is an awful lot of smoke to not have any fire........

I think that something is up....

Either a trade offer is agreed upon and Jack must approve it formally, or the bidding for him just got hot and we are playing Detroit and LA against each other right now. It just feels like something is up.

It's funny that the general reaction among the comments on the link JAL provided is not only negative, but VERY negative.

Crap I run to Shop n Save to get in on their sales and as usual my timing stinks... I ALWAYS miss all the fun. That is it, I am sewing myself into this chair and strapping that chair to the desk.

Sorry, FC.  Even as Jack has Detroit as one of those teams he has to give his permission on, WE BLOGGERS have to have a look at who comes back before you have OUR permission to trade the ol' boy.

But, that being said: We'll take their AAA 3B guy, Hessman, who hits 35-40 home runs with their AAA team each year,  and all the young pitching prospects you can milk.

Thanks for the update DK. I'm guessing word leaked out of Detroit that they thought there was a deal in place, and we called LA to pit the two against each other. Either way, it seems JW won't be a Bucco after today.

Hate to see him go. He might not have been the best at his position, but he was the best we had. He played hard and respected the city and fans. What more can you ask for? Lets hope the return will be worth it.

IF it is true and JW is close to being traded, I want to get this out in front:

JW thank you for all of your hard work both on and off of the field. Best of luck to you and your family. I wish you much success in your future, as long as it does not come at the expense of the PBC. Take care and God Bless.  

This has been discussed briefly before, but what are people's thoughts about trying Freddy at shortstop?

If his shoulder is OK, he might be able to do it. And even if it's iffy, the throws from short are generally with your body (other than deep in the hole) rather than against it.

Then maybe there's an opening for Meintz elsewhere in the infield, at least as a part-time starter?

Just trying to find a silver lining - I'm a Jack fan in general.

Another player t shirt/jersey that my kids have that is now possibly obsolete.  Get your tickets for June 12-14th if this happens.  Another Jack standing O when he takes his first AB?  Better not be boos like half the so called fans tend to do when a former Pirate is announced.  

my thoughts about trying at Freddy at shortstop are these:

Nooooooooo!

Between Cruz and Bixler, one of them or both of them would do a passable job next year.  

I'd like to know why the Team President is denying trades?  Does every trade have to be approved by him?  Way to cut the legs out from under your GM.

@TPena--<This has been discussed briefly before, but what are people's thoughts about trying Freddy at shortstop?>>

Aw Crap! Someone call 911 and my cardiologist, quick. Freddie IMO is an avg. 2B in the field and at the plate with limited range and NO ARM and inconsistancy by not talking balls in the box. He was oft injured last year allong with his SS counterpart. I am hoping that Freddie starts crying and demands and is traded along with his buddy JW. Not much would make me happier. Well the re-incarnation of Mr. Clemente and Pops in their prime walking out of the Allegheny River next to PNC in their Uni's with glove and bat in hand. That would definetly make me just a little bit happier. As well as the re-signing of DD.  

HEAR YE HEAR YE HEAR YE

G-3 (A&B)    ATTENDANCE CHECK

ALL IF YOU WOULD PLEASE HELP ME OUT BY SENDING ME AN EM AND LET ME KNOW WHICH OR BOTH GATHERING'S YOU MAY BE ATTENDING. PLEASE ONLY SEND THE EM IF YOU ARE THINKING OF ATTENDING

I WILL SEE YOU AT BOTH GATHERINGS.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME

SEND TO:    billabraham2004@yahoo.com

Matt

That is not cutting the legs.  FC did not refuse the trade, he simply stated that no trade has been made in response to a breaking story.  NH may have unavailable to comment.  I was working late one afternoon, a story broke, NPR called and wanted someone on the air immediately, CEO, COO, and all the VPs were gone so I did the interview.  Next I was thanked for taking action.  I undercut no one--just did what the situation demanded.

Brian Bixler had ample opportunity to show his stuff this season and pretty much failed. Cruz at SS would be depressing. Anything other than the Bucs getting Rafael Furcal from LA in a posible three-way deal would be an insult to Pirate fans.

afternoon link

Hankins wraps up stint in Arizona Fall League

www.effinghamdailynews.com/.../local_story_339132213.html

@BK-

Sorry about the medical emergency. But I do like your Field of Dreams vision. Can Tony Pena come back to Pittsburgh, too?

I agree with both you and Matt he's not a great second baseman by any means, so it probably won't work. I just know he started out there and thought it might fill a hole.

I liked what I saw of Cruz last year. Bambi? Not so much. But maybe with time ...

LZ

Never discount someone based on one 108 AB.  many players struggle their first time up.  Lowest average he had coming up was .274 in 2007 so he should hit about 100 points higher than he did.

Official website report:

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

@TPena--<Can Tony Pena come back to Pittsburgh, too>

Sure...But I must warn you, you are about to do battle to the death with another inmate...PoH. She is a Doumit Disciple and master of the Doumit Fan page..Tread lightly my friend and keep your head on a swivel. She is lurking in the asylum this afternoon.

If Jack is gone (which looks rather iminent) is Freddy and Laroche the next to go? What is the sense in paying two guys when you are rebuilding,right? I'm suprised we havent tried to package Jack/Fred given the love they have for each other.

I don't like the feeling of trading away one of our most prized possessions.  Shortstops are NOT a dime a dozen.  Jack still has the quickness and the bat for a very good SS.  

Who's going to play short if they trade Jack?

From the PBC Web Page Article:

"It is not accurate," Dombrowski said. "I can 100 percent tell you that."

Reading between lines...He is correct no deal has been finalized, but he would not deny that serious talks were underway.

Bixler though is going on 27. I agree his minor league stats look more promising than his 108 AB as a Pirate. But John Van B. was great in the minors but couldn't handle the majors. I would loooove Furcal to become a Pirate!  Yeah I know, dream on..... :(

@BK -

Actually I'm with PoH - last year as I talked about Doumit a gay friend of mine put his hand on my knee and said, "Do we need to talk?"

I told him not unless he was a switch-hitting catcher with power. (Fortunately my wife laughed.)

We can let Tony coach if necessary. And teach Doumit to catch with one leg flat on the ground - that was one of the coolest things ever.

JAL,

You seem to find things.  Is there any substantial report at all of who the Buccos might get from the Tigers for Jack?  I can't believe it's one of those two outfielders.  The Tigers 2nd and 3rd rated shortstops are further from the majors and ranked below Pinch-runner Bixler.

I heard the report of supposed trade on the Stan & Guy Show while driving, but even there it was attributed to the Jersey newspaper with no report of return.

Both the Tigers and the Pirates are officially saying, "No Trade" and the Jersey paper is half pulling back.  

Why would a Yankee reporter know more about a Tiger/Pirates trade than Tiger and Pirate beat reporters?

Sounds like a made up story to me——as if Yankee reporters have never done that before——but it sure has me dealing with a stronger likelihood of Jumpin' Jack Flash being gone  .  .  .  

Can you find any more substantial names, my friend?

Cruz with the glove, solid

Cruz with the bat, not so solid.

Hopefully a guy like Loretta will be signed and take a couple of starts a week at SS.  Sanchez at SS is problematic due to his range, nothing more.  Spot starts won't hurt, full time @ SS probably would.

Returns on Wilson from DET - Casper Wells this kid will end up being a stud.

@dubers--<Who's going to play short if they trade Jack?>

They would almost have to acquire a SS in the trade of equal or greater value to the PBC (younger or better even if it may cost them a little more in salary) OR they are quietly talking to a FA, (possible but not probable). There may be a R5 that they have their eye on but I am unaware of the SS available in R5 scenarios.

Cutch is ranked 12th on the top 50 prospect list from MLB.com

LZ

I agree.  INo guarantee he will make it, just don't discount on the 108 AB.  JVB had several shots and never made it but lets look at Jack Wilson--first year up played in 108 games with 390 AB and hit .223.  That's 29 points lower than his next lowest BA

@BK - "Crap I run to Shop n Save to get in on their sales and as usual my timing stinks... I ALWAYS miss all the fun. That is it, I am sewing myself into this chair and strapping that chair to the desk."

Did you get some of that Chef Boyardee Ravioli I was telling you about, Billy? It's to die for, and MORE IMPORTANTY, Nukeable! Just keep your microwave on your desk, a loaf of bread and line up the ravioli cans and you're all set for today's FUN AND EXCITEMENT on the PBC Blog!

Groat

Nothing but speculation--reportedly the Pirates would like a young SS but that is not set necessary for the trade to be made.  No names have surfaced from what i can find.

@Bk..see what happens when you leave the computer?  ;-)

I don't see Bixler as starting, if we don't get a SS in return.  I think that would most likely be Cruz.  Someone, on one thread  mentioned Furcal...wasn't he injured a good part of last season as well?  

@LarryZ  and others.

Cruz is NOT a SS never will be in the pro's.  No range to speak of.  Maybe SB okay if Freddy goes as well.

Bixler needs to get the jitters out and he will be fine at SS until one of the young guys from the minors are ready to step up.

I don't see needing a SS in return as a priority for the trade to happen.  I could see us sending Paulino as well and opening another spot on the roster. Never know what will or can happen later on.

BK--I should be there Sunday unless there is an emergency. One of my old retial bosses defined emergency as "fire, flood or excessive vomiting."  Because you know, people would call off if they sneezed. Anyway, see you then!

Sparring Partner,

Cruz has nice soft hands, although I was disappointed in at least 3-4 double plays that he did NOT turn.  That never shows up as an error, but is more important  to me than hitting for a shortstop.  Our contact-throwing pitchers need a shortstop who can turn the double play.  I am concerned about Cruz AND Bixler.

My concern with Cruz was his range.  It did not look like much, certainly not the range of Jack.  Ryan Braun caught everything hit to him last year in left field——he made less errors than Nate——but no one would ever consider him a Gold Glover, because he had NO range.

I fear, from my observations last year, that Luis Cruz might be a Ryan Braun at shortstop.

If Jack goes (sob/tear) I am hoping that Bixler has a Jay Bell evolution and becomes a Major Leaguer.  Bix has a higher upside.

Don't remember seeing anyone post something that has potential Tiger prospects coming over in exchange for Jack. This Tiger blog has a pretty comprehensive list of practical ones.

www.blessyouboys.com/.../this-week-s-jack-wilson-po

Here's the problem....As per usual with the PBC, they're a year too late.  Last year the offer was Jair Jurrjens.  How nice would he have looked in the black and gold over the next 3-4 years?  I dont think any return they can get from the Tigers now would be near what they would have had with Jurrjens...

And thats not even delving into the "who's next at SS" debate...

Just my thoughts.  

Bay

You really seem have a thing for the old Chef :)

@Bay--<Chef Boyardee Ravi>

Love the stuff.

@JAL--<Thing for the Chef>

Yeah ManLove.

I agree with Long Live 3 Rivs....Please tell me why that trade was declined..It was a stupid decision before Jurrjens had a great rookie season......

@Madturk

Bixler needs to get the jitters out and he will be fine at SS until one of the young guys from the minors are ready to step up.

Theres that old addage, you know a ballplayer when you see one, he's one of the those guys. Players are like soup, you have to cook it until it's ready, he was not ready last year.

You are 100% right, Bixler has the range, the arm, and the strength and if he hits 250, we should be able to live with that, considering he will help this pitching staff with his defense.

We don't seem to understand that many young players need time, where are we going, are we going to win the pennant next year and we need to get a Furcal, the Dodgers can't sign the guy or havn't yet, if we were going for the pennant we would keep Jack.

Bay-bee,

That site you listed was actually quoting "Jennifer" over at the official Pirate site.  It just mentioned the two outfielders and 2nd and 3rd rated shortstops of the Tigers that I referred to earlier.

I'm looking for a juicy indication from a Tiger or MLB source.

Wilson for Jurrjens was abandoned for... the Matt Morris trade.  It was a deadline deal - not a winter one.

Baywatch and BK -

My company, Wyeth, used to be called American Home Products and used to own a subsidiary called American Home Foods that made Chef Boyardee, Brach's Candy, Guldens Mustard and Jiffy Pop. We could by the Chef products in our company store for practically free. Unfortunately, they sold off that part of the business to focus on pharmaceuticals. I disagreed, saying "never put all your eggs - or raviolis - in one basket."

@leadoff

Thanks for taking it another step.  Totally agree my asylum friend.

@ diehard....thanks for the info - now I need to go vomit

FROM:Jennifer Langosch's mailbag at MLB.com

<<There is young depth at short in Detroit's system. The Tigers might be willing to part with Brent Dlugach since he's probably the organization's No. 3 shortstop right now. Trying to pry away the organization's No. 2 shortstop prospect -- Danny Worth -- would likely require the Pirates to offer more than just Wilson. But it is a possibility.>>

GIVE EM FREDDIE TOO!!!!! PLEASE.

@Billy <<GIVE EM FREDDIE TOO!!!!! PLEASE>>

I'm with ya all the way.

Groat

Pirates and Tigers staying closed lips on who they are discussing and the MLB site has no names mentioned.

BTW--The Tiger blog was posted with the Morning Links part 2 this morning on the Doug story thread.

They can have Freddie and Ronnie if we can get Worth and a good arm. Bix will be fine until Worth or whomever is ready.

Uglykenneth and William Kidder.

You know Freddie's Mom reads this blog!!

Why would they want Freddie when they have Polanco at 2nd?

On an ESPN chat an hour ago, Keith Law said he wouldnt give up an actual prospect for Wilson  - Dombrowski isnt an idiot - dont get your hopes up that players with potential are coming back if Wilson goes - its a salary dump pure and simple.

You guys are in too big a hurry to get rid of Freddie, Freddie hit very well the 2nd half of 2008, he is our best option at 2nd base at this point, the injury he has is something we don't know enough about, if it is not going away, he will have to go away, you can't play that position with that injury, but if he is on the mend, he will be fine on a team that will desperately need offense.

The only problem I acutally have about Freddie, is where to bat him. He isn't a good leadoff guy (OH thats me), he doesn't get walks, he isn't a good 2nd spot hitter, can't bunt, can't wait for leadoff to get a good steal pitch, can't bat third, fourth or fifth because he doesn't hit with enough powerr, I guess anywhere from 6th thru 8th, never happen with this manager.

There's no point to doing this if we don't get a legit prospect back.

@Groat2Maz2Strangeglove wrote re: Tigers make fresh offer for Wilson

on Dec 4, 2008 3:15 PM

Uglykenneth and William Kidder.

You know Freddie's Mom reads this blog!!

_____________________________________________

If she is reading this blog and is a comitted member like us then she is probably the one that started the chant to send freddy away as well.

@sarcastic sword

Are you NH or related?  

Ah man it's time for Jack to go.  Glad he was with us while he was here.  I thank him for his time and effort while with the PBC.

I guess the bottom line is 7.5 million worth it to the team we will field next year?  Considering we are looking to the future.  Get the young guys started and get what you can while we can.  One or two years more from Jack is not worth the price for this team.

@Sarc-On an ESPN chat an hour ago, Keith Law said he wouldnt give up an actual prospect for Wilson  - Dombrowski isnt an idiot - dont get your hopes up that players with potential are coming back if Wilson goes - its a salary dump pure and simple.

Keith Law knows nothing about baseball he is a jerk, It was a good thing the Tigers were involved or Law would not even have mentioned the Pirates. Only an idiot would say one of the top 10 shortstops in baseball isn't worth a prospect.

This deal would have nothing to do with a dump, a certain amount of every trade involves money and it would not surprise me if the Pirates don't have to pay part of Wilson's salary in a trade, in case you have not noticed every team is looking to lowering salary, why do you think the Tigers let Renteria go? Why do you think the Dodgers are going to let Furcal go? Why are the Yankees looking to trim payroll? Why are the Padres trying to get below 40 mil this year?

Freddie might make an interesting DH, just thinkin'

sarcastic - Consider the source.  Earlier today we had Karl Ravetch saying "Well, they're the PIrates," and glossing over the Reds as well in their NLC Hot Stove report.  Law wouldn't advocate any team they like - and Detroit counts because they have a huge payroll - giving any "lesser" team a quality return.

@Leadoff--<You guys are in too big a hurry to get rid of Freddie>

IMO, I would like to see if Cruz play 2B. He does not need the range to go deep in the hole. He has an excellent glove. He has the bat to play that position.

I am also not sure how Freddie is going to take his BFF being traded. Yeah we know he will put on the "professional" appearance and say everything is just peachy...I am not so sure.

Cruz and Bixler are NOT major league caliber SS.  I don't like the taste of the Bucs shopping Jack around.  They must have someone else in the current system in mind.  

I would love to spend a week working along side NH and FC to understand what their plans are.  This seems akward, unless it's a deal too good to pass up and not money driven.

Long Liv - let's throw a little more angst onto the pile.  In addition to Jurjens, we could have had a Cy Young Winner next to him in rotation (remember the Bay for Lee rumors last winter?)  

I agree with Mad Turk about Bix.  When he came back up at the end of the season he seemed more solid defensively.  The first month of the season was just a mess - he was illprepared.  His offense never came around, but I think that takes longer to translate from the minors.  The stuff pitchers have changes -the way a ball comes off the bat when you're trying to field it doesn't.  

Keep in mind everyone -we're not contending for a wildcard this year.  

And to the person who said Wilson had a good bat my question is, who was he let using it for the last 7 years?  Sure as heck wasn't in his hands when he was putting up one subpar average after another.  Except for that one 200+ hit season, when I think we all know he was on something - cmon..everyone's thinking it - i'm just saying.

Could we throw in Chris Duffy to sweeten the pot?  I know there are several here in Bucco Nation who think he is a gold-glove caliber CF in waiting

Yeah yeah..I know he's no longer part of the organization.  And isn't Furcal a free agent at the moment too?  i heard last week he was house shopping in Oakland, which you don't normally do if you're under contract in LA, so I don't think the Dodgers could 'throw him in' to a trade for Wilson.

BK - with on Freddy.  My fondest PNC memory was being there in '06 to cheer him on to the batting title, but the guy is a glorified spare part.  If he can get you a prospect or two, do it.

I think the return that PNC gets for Wilson will show everyone just how little regarded jumpin jack is to baseball in general.  Instead of criticizing NH for what he gets, think about the fact that no one else out there really wanted him before singing his praises.

Billy

Cruz does play 2nd base, he plays just about everywhere, but at best he is a role player without power, he can't hit like Freedie did and will hit if he can get rid of the injury. Realistically, Freedie might be one of the guys that you hope does well the first 3 months and then think to trade at the deadline if the team isn't doing well. At this point you would be giving him away and a guy that leads the league in hitting a couple of years ago doesn't lose it that fast.

I think you hit the old nail on the head Matt A. When you have one good season mixed in with a bunch of mediocre to bad years that is the first explanation that comes to mind, I'm just agreein

Sorry fellas - maybe you dont like Keith Law's brutal honesty but I find him refrehing and knowledgable..We'll have to agree to disagree...At this stage of his career, Im not sure Wilson is a top 10 shortstop....If this trade is made and the Pirates return is frowned upon by this blog, then NH and Dombrowski agree that he isnt a Top 10 shortstop.....

That is a great point Matt A. We seem to be the only people in baseball that see a lot of worth in JW.

"Could we throw in Chris Duffy to sweeten the pot? "

Duffy is no longer with the organization.

Pete Rose (the ultimate LEADOFF),

Good comment about Freddie.  Some people want to just get rid of everyone, without thought of who would be the replacement.

If it was injuries with Freddie——2nd Half certainly indicates that——then he is our best option.  He's a doubles machine.

Problem is:  where DO you bat him???

1/ Nyger;  2/ Nate;  3/ Ryan;  4/ LaRoche;  5/ Andy (righthander!);  6/ Moss;  7/ Freddie;  8/ Jack or Bix;  9/ Greg Maddox

With the team we presently have, Freddie might have to bat 2nd to break up all the lefthanded bats, or a bullpen change would kill us!!

Madturk,

Made me laugh!  Freddie's Mom might have inhabited Plenty Galore's body this week  .  .  .  she's been out-of-sorts as if we were trying to trade her son!

G-Man - you had me at Jiffy Pop. God bless ya.

Sorry - I'm on the Cruz over Bix train. Like it or lump it.

Wilson wasn't as briilliant his rookie year as he became - I give Cruz the same leeway. Srsly.

@leadoff--<Freddie vs Cruz>

That is something I can definetly live with. Great points made.

@dubers... Unless it's Bix or Cruz, I don't think there is anyone in the organization that is ready to come up.  Shelby "Mustant" Ford may be the closest, but he spent last season at AA Altoona.

FYI...I think Bix played 2B a bit in Indy last year as well.  

phillyjake - I know, which is why in the very next sentence I said, yes I know he's no longer with the organization, but I guess that space between paragraphs was a gulf just too wide too bridge, which suprises me not for someone who's referencing the armpit of the commonwealth in his name.  

Try to read the whole post next time before offering corrections.

The Bucs have no need for a salary dump.  In any trade involving Wilson the Bucs WILL be paying part of the salary don't kid yourself about that.

Depending on the player/players coming our way will dictate how much we pay.  I could see as much as 2.5 to 3 mil in salary, and if he is bought out after the 09 season, which is sure to happen, part of the buy out.  So just say 3.5 million, but the return we would receive would be better.  

That 3.5  would be the max of course.  I don't see us paying 3.5, I'll guess that it comes in around 2 to 2.5 mil.  We get 2 players, maybe on a stretch 3.  

What's with the anti-Freddie Sanchez talk? I'll stick up for him.  My how we soon forget his unforgettable batting title run only two years ago!  Not fair. Freddie was just hurt last year and, yes, was sloppy at the plate until after the all-star break, in which case he was on fire, hitting .350 or something like that. Why are we Bucs fans so ready to get rid of a great hitter?  

Matt

You seem to be forgetting 2007 for Jack--.296 BA and 12 HR (his top HR total).  Pretty close to his 2004 of .308 and 11 HR

Even his 2006 wasn't bad--.273 and 8 HR, just not up there with 2004 and 2007

LarryZ - isn't it a requirement for a 'great hitter' to once in awhile, occasionally take more than 3 pitches before putting the ball in play?   Great hitters control the strike zone, making it smaller to the point where they wait for a pitcher's mistake, and when he gets that mistake, does something ugly with it.  The only hitter I can think of who somewhat reminds me of freddie is Vlad Guerrero.  If freddy was putting up 30HRs and 100Rbis a year, yeah - I could live with his total lack of discipline at the plate.

I think we actually kicked this around a few months ago - Freddy could be the first guy in the majors to have a lower OBP then Batting average.

@Larry Z-Freddie was just hurt last year and, yes, was sloppy at the plate until after the all-star break, in which case he was on fire, hitting .350 or something like that. Why are we Bucs fans so ready to get rid of a great hitter?  

You can be a Pirate fan and love baseball, but that doesn't mean you can judge talent!!

Some people are wrapped up in stats, some just don't like him.

We have people on this blog that might not have liked Clemente when he came up if they would have seen him and as a matter of fact there were people that didn't like him his first year and I can't count the times people wanted to get rid of Clemente when he didn't get a hit in a cruicial situation, he was the best player I ever saw, but his greatness didn't happen until he matured.

Gosh I hope they're negotiating to get Detroit's first base coach. Srsly.

@Plenty <<Gosh I hope they're negotiating to get Detroit's first base coach. Srsly.>>

LOL....I don't know why that caught me of guard, but I was just munching on an apple and almost choked when I read that.

;-)

@Matt--isn't it a requirement for a 'great hitter' to once in awhile, occasionally take more than 3 pitches before putting the ball in play?

No it isn't a requirement!

You don't like the fact he is not selective, and he isn't. I would like him to be more selective also, but that is his style, that is why I don't believe he should be hitting in the 1,2,3,4,5, holes, he might be a terrific 8 hole hitter, you couldn't pitch around him to get to the pitcher, he wouldn't let you.

We are supposed to have a manager to figure these things out, Right?

I might add if Adam LaRoach gets off to a slow start I might put him in the 6th or 7th spot. I know, not going to happen.

Just say no to Matt Joyce and. Jeff Larish of the Tigers -- say yes to OF Wilkin Ramirez. Please?

Aaaargh! And aaaarggh again! Can't recommend having that can of Chef Boyardee Ravioli, then laying down for a nap!

@BK - William Kidder? Were you married to Margot at one time?

DMac - Why Shelby "Mustant" Ford? Does he smell like an ant that got covered up in cat must?

One more thread and I'm done for the day ... I'm going cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs, as it is today. I went to get my breaks fixed, walked into the little office to pay, leaned up against a wall - and a guy pushed me into the desk. The back of my coat was on fire, I'd leaned into one of those recessed-in-the-wall space heaters!

The Bayver's fine, but the back of his Domino's coat looks like a melted bag of marshmellows now!

LOL...Oops!  @Bay...Slip of the fingers...I meant MUSTANG.  :-)

I sorta like NuttingHostage's choice of first base coach, based on Plenty's long-neck profile recommendation.

In honor of NH, whom we miss on the blog this week:cowboys.beloblog.com/.../hanks.jpg

Oh Bay! Bless your heart.

Big Squeaky Kiss on the Forehead to you!

Bay

Fire--better the coat than you melting

MattAl - "isn't it a requirement for a 'great hitter' to once in awhile, occasionally take more than 3 pitches before putting the ball in play?"

I'll concede that Freddie could use more plate discipline, but it's not like the Buccos are overflowing with batting champions, or .300 hitters for that matter. Freddie is one of the few legit hitters we have.  

@Bay-<The Bayver's fine, but the back of his Domino's coat looks like a melted bag of marshmellows now!>

I am glad you are ok, but i am ROLF LMAO...

Last point on Freddie. He strikes out only roughly 1 times per every 10 at bats. he puts the ball in play.  Lifetime .300 hitter.  

As I stated earlire this week, Freddy can go IMHO. His only upside is his offense, and that has faded since is batting title year. He is anything but #2 batter given that he refuses to take a walk, refuses to learn how to bunt, puts himself before the team because he feels he is much better than he really is. In order to take a walk or drop down a bunt, you have to want to, pure and simple. Freddy doesn't want to. Unless he changes his attitude and wants to help the team and not just concentrate on his own stats, get rid of him, especially if Jack does go.

ESPN has just reported on big pkg deal including Lillibridge and others...I am looking up the details....

More Links:

BoSox Finalize Deal with Tazawa

sports.espn.go.com/.../story

Vasquez to Braves Deal (6 players) Complete

sports.espn.go.com/.../story

HERE IS A NEW WILSON UPDATE REGARDING LAD

sports.espn.go.com/.../story

Renteria To SFG 2 yrs 18.5M

sports.espn.go.com/.../story

I thought this should get its own post

HERE IS A NEW WILSON UPDATE REGARDING LAD

sports.espn.go.com/.../story

(AP Update @ 4:50 PM EST)

That article was condescending when it got to the part about Pittsburgh's spending.

This is a new era! We are going to pay to build the system! Someone tell ESPN it is a season of HOPE!

I did gulp when they so frankly assessed, in written word, our top three pay guys after Jack. Cripes - not that that is a lot of money, but hello, performance? Anyone? ANYONE? As Paul Maholm walks off the mound making less than a half a million dollars. Srsly.

POH: I thought this winter might be a good offseason to get free agents cheaper than usual, like 2003(?) when Reggie Sanders and others came here, because of the bad economy -- then I saw that Edgar Renteria got $18.5 million with the Giants, that was just crazy. Why can't owners do a better job colluding against players? Jack Wilson's contract looks a lot better compared to what Renteria's going to get.

Teddy Rumpkin,

Freddie 2nd half of the season was Batting Champion caliber.

It was obvious injuries affected his performance.  I mean, Holy Cow, the shortstop was going out to take the outfield relays even from the rightfielders in right center field!  Freddie couldn't throw!

Second Half he fielded better (not great yet) AND hit around .350.

Tell me . . . it's easy to say, "Don't bat him second."  Who on the team would you bat there?  Look at the line-up I listed above and tell me who bats second?

ESPN is obviously not a friend to the PBC.  I don't suppose I can hope for the new MLB network to be a little less rude?  

THey don't know what FC and NH have in mind...no one will until it's done.  Players that performed well last year -- Ryan, Nate and Paul -- will be rewarded, but I don't think there's a lot that can be done about Adam, due to arbitration, or am I wrong on that?

well, Well, Well,  Jennifer and I still agree if jack goes there will be a third party (team or free agent) because cruz has major major league smooth hands and thats it and Bixler has a quick first sttep and thats it and no way are we going to put a .195 ss out there.

Freddy came up a ss but mostly because of his latin build and to a certain level enough speed to play short.  At the major league level its like playing a very good 12 yearl old little leaguer against a below average 11 year old little leaguer.  One year difference but no close competition possible.  Even if Freddy's arm is ok he does not have the arm the range or the speed to play the position.  It is a nice thought though.

What we need at ss if the team who we would trade jack to has the guy we want then why would they want Jack?  We have honest prospects in the lower levels, at this point no one in the organization will do the job, that leaves the third party.

We trade giving them what they want giving us what we need and then we trade from what we have an abundance of for what we gave up for our need elsewheres.

Now watch them trade jack for the number four ss prospect and do nothing else.

Thanks for the clarification DK.

Groat2,

So, based on a year and a half of good hitting ( the title year and half of this year) Freddy is untouchable? Not for me. The answer to where to bat him is anywhere other than on the Pirate team. I'm sorry, but he is not the answer the Pirates need right now. Trade him for whoever we can get and get on with the rebuilding (even if we aren't allowed tp call it that).

Again, just MHO

P.S. Ted is fine, even though it isn't any part of my real name, Teddykins (or Teddykinz) is fine too, but I may have to draw the line at Teddy Rumpkins. K?

teddy rumkins is over the line all right ha ha

Family of Theodore,

Freddie is a LIFETIME .300 hitter.  That's just not a year and a half.

I do not see anyone on the Buccos untouchable, but since we already threw in our three best chips at the trading deadline last year, I refuse to give what value we do have away!

A trade of Jack Wilson for possible prospects that will go to A or AA this year is not worth the trade.  So many of those prospects do not pan out, and we know what we do have in Jack:  one of the top 10 fielding shortstops in baseball, which we need desperately with our youngish, contact-throwing pitchers.  If we have ANY CHANCE of winning this year, we need a strong fielding infield, especially shortstop!!  Give me two years of Jack Wilson over 2 so-called prospects in A ball.  A ball is a million miles away!

Freddie has value now if his arm is back and he hits like he did the 2nd Half after he healed up some.  If he plays like 2nd Half right away, he will actually become our best trading option during the season.  We can get more for him in July than we can right now!

To get rid of what value we have, with no replacements apparent, and no plan is what we used to do.

Wait . . . Family of Theodore . . . you're not really David Littlefield in disguise, are you?  That '43' probably represents the millions you gave to worthless free agents and Mr. Morris.

To rebuild, you have to have PARTS.  Freddie can provide the Pirates more parts in July than this winter.

To get rid of him just to get rid of him is Littlefieldish (a synonym for foolish).

I just saw that Edgar Renteria signed with the Giants for 2yrs/$18mil.  

WOW.

I bet that deal stimulated some of the trade buzz again for Jack Wilson, who is a comparable player for a much lesser salary.  When teams look at what Renteria got and what Cabrera and Furcal are asking for, Wilson is starting to look like a better investment at his $7 mil with an $8mil option.

The FA musical chairs only helps the value of Wilson on the market.  

Groat - as much as I've talked about a trade like it's done concerning Jack, I think we need him. We can get an OK shortstop, but that's acceptable if you have good pitching. If we're going to get tee'd off on again this year, may the Good Lord and Mr. Kerrigan forbid, we need above average defense at short.

I don't want to ruin Cruz' development by rushing him. He had some three-hit nights when we first used him and he's smooth out there. He's my pick above Bix, but they say (and DK writes) that rushing a prospect can damage them for their baseball life. Hold on to Jack at least in 09, develop Cruz. Or get a shorstop in trade, but that doesn't seem likely.

Here are some comments on Brent Lillibridge from ESPN:

Brent Lillibridge is a nice utility player who can handle playing shortstop, second or center field but who is little more than a slap-hitter without good secondary skills, limiting his upside to a bench role.

Lillibridge hit .200 in 80 at-bats with Atlanta last season. He spent most of the season with Triple-A Richmond, batting .220.

Bless you, Plenty of HOPE, you've seen the light!!

We are on a Mission from God, and we need to put the band back together——I mean, we need to keep Jack Wilson at short  .  .  .  to give our developing pitchers a chance!!!

You are an angel, Plenty Galore.

Still fighting this rotten cold; spent most of the day in bed reading sci fi and watching old movies on TV -- John Wayne in Rio Grande this morning (didn't know Monument Valley was anywhere near there), but hello for a little while anyway.  

What a day to miss . . . I couldn't tell from the comments and stories (maybe we're supposed to be kept guessing) if the Bucs are talking a 3-way deal with LA and Detroit, or if there are opposing parties bidding on our shortstop.  I'm hoping the latter of course.  

Since we don't know what we're getting or if the deal will materialize, it's a bit early to evaluate it . . . I like Jack, think he's a good shortstop but the core is Nate & Doumit and the kids.  If he goes for prospects, we'll have lots to talk about for quite awhile.

What I like so far is that NH is turning down offers -- shows that he knows what he wants.  Prospects don't always pan out, of course, but you load the system and you come away with some cash to invest when the time is right.

Groat,

Right now, Jack Wilson's value simply will not get higher. The ONLY reason to keep him around until the deadline would be to prove that he's healthy, since he missed a significant chunk of time last season, but since he's had such a clean bill of health before that, it may not be necessary. On the other hand, however, given his age, there's a much higher risk of his skill and performance actually decreasing, which would seriously depreciate his value. Then we'd just be stuck with an unmovable contract.

You say that holding onto Jack is paramount if the Pirates are to have any shot at being competitive in 2009. Well, fortunately for this franchise, putting together a winning team for 2009 is not the top priority of Huntington & co. Barring something crazy happening, the Pirates will not contend in 2009, with or without Jack Wilson. Keeping him around just for the off chance that we could make a run at .500 when his value will not possibly be higher than it is right now at any point in the future is not the smart way to build a baseball team. It's too bad DL completely missed the boat on Jurrjens a couple of summers ago, but Neal needs to get what he can for Jack while he still can.

Honestly, if Jack can be parlayed into a return of Hu, Young, and a third player from L.A., I'd consider that a successful deal. Young has raked pretty much everywhere he's gone but hasn't really gotten much of a chance in the bigs.

And as for the argument that we'd be "rushing" Bixler or Cruz...the status of those two guys as prospects is so tenuous at best that it's not like we're taking someone with a chance to be a bona fide stud out of a-ball and throwing him to the wolves. These are guys whose ceilings are that of a utility player at most. Some combination of those two (and Hu, if we end up him) would hardly be too damaging to the future of the franchise if we have to suffer with them for a year.

As for rushing prospects, what sort of uproar was there when Pujols went straight from AA to the bigs? (BTW, any update on that "Pujols to the Pirates" rumor? *G*)

@JH--I love Rio Grande..Just a little trivia...John Wayne as part of BatJac Produtions (his company) along with John Ford bought several thousand acres around Monument Valley while filming one of the many Westerns they were involved in together.

I agree with you on your NH cash observation. He wants someone in particular from both teams and as of today is negotiating with the DT from a position of strength since they lost Renteria to the SFG.

I hope you feel much better tomorrow. A virtual pot of homemade Chicken Noodle soup is on its way.  

Boy.  It tells you how busy I've been today that I'm just now posting this, but:

72 DAYS UNTIL PITCHERS AND CATCHERS!!*

(*This countdown is currently calibrated to an unofficial reporting date of February 14th, 2009.  When the reporting date becomes official, this countdown will be recalibrated as required.  There is some rumbling out there of Feb. 17th, but nothing official that I can find.  Thank you.)

@JH and BK...I love that NH seems to have a plan and isn't just jumping on the first trade offer.  Like you both said, he's got a target and won't back down.  

@JH...I'll sent virtual hot tea with lemon, since BK already delivered the soup.  I hope you feel better soon.

While finding a new SS to take over for Jack won’t be easy, the Pirates would be crazy if they didn’t make a play for Oakland’s Bobby Crosby.

Currently the leading suitors for Rafael Furcal, Crosby has fallen out of favor in Oakland, having “lost the patience” of A’s GM Billy Beane. A former Gold-Glove winner, Crosby has great range and is extremely durable, having played 145 games for the A’s in 2009.

Altogether, I think we could expect relatively solid production from [a healthy] Crosby in an environment devoid of pressure. Needless to say, if he doesn’t break out (in a walk year) in Pittsburgh in 2009, he would command a marginal, at best, 3-year extension at only 28 years of age.

This seems realistic and somewhat youth driven for the Pirates, who would gain a younger and likely more affordable defensive upgrade at SS capable of leading the infield for the Bucs.

Kid

Robin Hood,

Bringing Pujols jumping from AA to bigs into discussion is like bringing Superman to a boxing match.  Pujols is not like any of the other 749 players in the league.  You show me Pujols, Jr. in the Pirates minors, I'll bring him up.

Will B Gone,

I'm not looking to trade Jack Wilson for a couple A or AA ballplayers.

Some players are worth more to the team right now than so-called value in trade.

The Pirates true VALUE right now is not Nate or Doumit, although they are  very important building blocks.  The true VALUES, if the Buccos are ever going to be good in the next few years, are Maholm, Snell, Duke, Gorzellanny, Orndorff, Karstans, D. McCutcheon, and Dumatrait.  

I expect the first 5 to be the starters this year, with the others waiting in the wings.  They need to make a BIG step forward THIS YEAR, with a new pitching coach, to continue as major league starters AND make the Pirates a winner.  This season is extraordinarily important in that development!  They MUST have solid defense behind them to encourage that development:  not some castoff or minor league maybe at shortstop!

Jack Wilson is more valuable to the Pittsburgh Pirates as a shortstop than as trade bait.

If you remember, Bettis retired as a Steeler——they didn't just trade him for a 6th round draft pick.  

Jack Wilson is more valuable to the Pirates right now than 2 'A ball' maybes.  And . . . may be more valuable to the Pirates future by being the shortstop of the Pirates THIS SEASON!

Oooohhhhh...Captain Kidd...I didn't even think about Crosby! Good thinking, that is!   He may be one of those that would thrive in a new environment.  

@Groat--<Jack Wilson is more valuable to the Pirates right now than 2 'A ball' maybes.  And . . . may be more valuable to the Pirates future by being the shortstop of the Pirates THIS SEASON!>

I respectfully disagree. I could care less about about the analogy of Bettis and the Steelers. Not even close. JW needs to go, for the RIGHT player and not Minor Leaguers or has beens. As with Bay we did not win a pennant with him so he is tradeable and oh btw it seems that the DT and LAD are interested so lets at least listen. That costs nothing more than the cost of the phone call.  If we can get what WE want...Good Bye, Good Luck, Get your crap and get the Hell out of the Clubhouse

DMac -

>>I didn't even think about Crosby!<<

If we get him, can Malkin be far behind?

BK

Now tell us how you really feel:)

DMac/G-Man: Ooh!  Ooh!  And does Oakland have a spare Staal we could borrow?

@CK--<Bobby Crosby>

Interesting thought. The problem may be that we really do not have a lot to offer Billy Beane. He will not deal straight up SS for SS. He may want more than we have or want to offer. I relly like the idea but I like the idea of negotiating from strength as we are with the DT who need a SS

DMac,

I totally agree. I think Bobby Crosby would fit in perfectly in Pittsburgh.

Moreover, as Crosby is owed $5.25 million in 2009, should the Pirates find a suitor to take on Wilson’s $7.25 million contract, the Bucs could add $2 million to the 2009 budget.

At this point, it’s obvious that the A’s would be selling low on the former first-round pick. He'd likely be relatively cheap trade wise, and an overall great pickup for the Bucs.

Kid

GMazGlove- I hope that Pedro Alvarez ends up being our version of Pujols.  But not so whiney.

Seriously, does he spend more than one season in the minors?  Does he come up for a cup of coffee this fall?  Hi, Pedro.  Not to put too much pressure on you, but could you save a franchise? Thx. *g*

Need to consider Wilson's salary more closely.  Early today someone wrote that we have traded Wilson for Greene straight up--no way, the Padres are cutting payroll and they wouldn't trade for a higher salary.  Pirates are in a rough spot here as reports are both LA and Det. want the Pirates to pay part of Wilson's salary.  The other thing hurting high salary trades is the general economy.  Many clubs do not want take on big salaries with uncertain income.

BK & DMac -- Thanks for the soup and tea -- Mrs H made me a hearty beef stew this evening (feed a cold) and I've been rehydrating with lemonaid.  Vitamin C, you know and cocoa and butter-schnapps before bed.  Seems to be helping -- sore throat's gone and the coughing has eased a bit.  Now if we could just find a cure for the 16-year cold streak.

Just a wierd thought, but suppose a deal goes through and we wind up with someone with more pop and less range than Jack, should we put one or two of our soft-tossing lefties on the block (if the price is right, and what would be a good return?)  Conventional wisdom assigns more value to left handed pitchers, and the ones we have live on ground ball outs.  

@BillyKidd,

The key negotiating chip here is Crosby's contract. As I said earlier, if the Pirates find a suitor to absorb Jack's contract, the Pirates would shed $2 million from the 2009 budget.

Thus, if the Bucs take on Crosby's remaining on-year $5.25 million contract, Beane  won't command major talent in return – likely two tier-two prospects, such as LHP Dave Davidson and an additional INF or OF bat to be named later.

Altogether, in this case, the Pirates have a chance to shed payroll and upgrade defensively at short with a younger veteran in dire need of a change of scenery, all for a relatively low cost talent wise.

I think this scenario makes perfect sense for the Pirates right now.

Kid

@JAL--<JW>

As I wished Bay I have and will do the same. I feel sorry for JW that his whole career so far as been spent with a lost cause franchise. He has heard and seen it all year after year. He has been a pillar of strength for all these years for pretty much keeping quiet and going about his job and performing I think to the best of his abilities. He has been a pillar in the community while maintaining a West Coast life/residence. For all of those years no one player has done more in the PBC community. He is to be applauded on all fronts for his faithful years of service...I said the last 2 lines as usual tongue in cheek. Just my weird sense of humor...

For future reference...I am over a player when he gets the goodbye good riddance do not let the door hit you where the good lord split you line...JW was never even close

Billy the Kidder,

I'm always willing to listen.  Heck, I'd listen for offers for Nate, Maholm, and Doumit!!

You and I agree that for the RIGHT player, Wilson should go.  

What I AM saying is that Jack Wilson's trade value, I would surmise, is not as great as his value to the 2009 development of our pitching staff.  

The Pirates of the future and specifically 2009 may glean more by keeping Jack Wilson than trading him for minimal return.

Forget Bettis.  In 1971, the Detroit Tigers wanted Bill Mazerowski for the stretch pennant run.  Joe Brown and Danny Murtaugh decided that he was more valuable to the Bucs as a backup to Dave Cash than to trade him.  Bucs did OK in 1971, if I remember correctly.

If the Buccos have a plan——not just 'hope'——to replace Wilson with a competent top 10 fielding shortstop to help the young pitchers in 2009, I'll help Wilson pack his 'crap.'

@CK--<As I said earlier, if the Pirates find a suitor to absorb Jack's contract, the Pirates would shed $2 million from the 2009 budget.>>

Both of the current suitors and probably anyone else will require the PBC to eat a portion of JW's salary. My post for the latest info from the AP @ 5:09 PM states LAD want PBC to eat a significant amount of JW's Salary. I also read from the PBC Mailbag that the DT's are not flush with cash either and any move by them will also require PBC salary concessions.

I do agree after looking Crosby up that he might be a good fit and the West to East move would probably do him good.

@SirL and G-man...LMAO.  Could the city handle 2 teams with that trio?  

In all honesty, I woud hate to see Jack go.  I like Cruz, but I honestly don't see him stepping into an everyday role.  IF we need a new SS, Crosby would be a nice addition.

However, BK has a point.  Billy Beane is pretty savvy and can't be had.

CK

That is a big if--not sure anyone with take JW and his salary.  

As for Crosby--do we really want to pay 5 million for a ss whose highest average the past 3 years is .237 with a high in HR of 9 over that period?  Should be able to get those stats a lot cheaper.  I think Crosby had his career year in HR back in 2004 and his career year in BA in 2005.

@Groat--<71 Analogy/plan>

Great analogy. I think they did ok in 71 too...

Maz knew he was close to the end of his wonderful career and Cash was waiting in the wings as a reliable replacement and was more than willing to take a sub role at that time. I am not sure JW is at that point yet. I also am not sure that JW's ego would allow that to happen in a PBC uni...I just do not know.

As for packing for JW, I will put your name on the list. Thanks for volunteering. ;-)

BK and CK

Am I missing something here. What is positive about Crosby?  His OBP each of the past 3 seasons is under 300.  If I want no power and weak BA I'll just go with the much cheaper Cruz.  

2/3 of a great double play,

Freddy is indeed a career .300 hitter with a whopping total of 113 walks and 251 strikeouts. His greatest asset is his ability to hit doubles. Unfortunately, he wants to do that more than he wants to do the little things that really help the team such as take a walk, advance a runner, etc. His defense isn't all that great either. My post said if Jack goes Freddy should too, that's all. If he stays and plays like the Freddy of old, then he will indeed have more tradeable value.To me, that is a huge IF at this point. Again, just my opinion which I am every bit allowed to have as much as you have yours, even if we disagree.

Now, can we stop with the cutsey names? We are adults here, no need to try to belittle one another. Or maybe you are NuttingHostage in disguise?

Gonna go watch the end of the Pens game now.

JAL -- You are right, Crosby would be giving up too much offense.  I was going to break down and actually look him before getting into it but as usual you supplied the needed research -- but no amount of range can make up for that big of an offensive loss.  

JH

With me is a question of cost for production.  I want more from a 5 mil player.  

@JAL--<Crosby>

IMO here is a "young" kid in need of a change a scenery that should flourish. His existing salary for past production is skewed. For the right $ amount I think it would be a fit. How many former PBCer's have been in that exact same mold..Aramis is one of them, that left and was nurtured and flourished. Like i stated earlier Beane will want more than we are willing to offer based upon the numbers you state above.

Maybe it's just the Bonifay/Littlefield syndrome that I suffer from.  At least when Bay was traded, there was a plan in place to replace him:  Moss, McCutch, Tabata, Pearce, Nyger were all planned as understudies, waiting to get the star-call.

With Wilson, there is no understudy on the horizon, either in the minors or in trade talks.  Hu is just a smaller version of Raphael Belliard with more injuries and less pop than Belliard.  Hu has never played in more than 70% of his team's games in any season in pro ball.  He's a double play machine——hitting into them, not turning them.  He's nothing more than a back-up at best.

If Wilson is traded without a more than competent replacement, it's like building the second story of a house without shoring up the 1st floor or basement.  I at present see no blueprint for building the Pirate house if Wilson is traded for 2 A-ball prospects.

Does aspirin help Bonifay/Littlefield syndrome?  This gives me a headache.

HEAR YE! HEAR YE! HEAR YE! HEAR YE!

WHO:

ALL INMATES OF THE ASYLUM

WHAT:

GATHERING III A and III B

WHEN:

2 DATES

III A: SATURDAY 06 DECEMBER 1:00 PM

III B: SUNDAY 07 DECEMBER 1:00 PM

WHERE:

III A: DUNKIN DONUTS, MARKET SQUARE

III B: VINCENTS PIZZA, MANSFIELD AVE. GREENTREE

WHY:

TO WISH YOUR FELLOW INMATES A HAPPY HOLIDAYS.

SEE YOU THERE!

HEAR YE HEAR YE HEAR YE

G-3 (A&B)    ATTENDANCE CHECK

ALL IF YOU WOULD PLEASE HELP ME OUT BY SENDING ME AN EM AND LET ME KNOW WHICH OR BOTH GATHERING'S YOU MAY BE ATTENDING. PLEASE ONLY SEND THE EM IF YOU ARE THINKING OF ATTENDING

I WILL SEE YOU AT BOTH GATHERINGS.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME

SEND TO:    billabraham2004@yahoo.com

BK

Crosby will turn 29 next month.  Aramis was a much better hitter than Crosby.  He was hitting .280 when  the Bucs traded him and his Chi seasons are right in line with his 2001 and his 2003 seasons with Pittsburgh.  Crosby has had 3 bad seasons in a row and there is nothing to indicate he will do better elsewhere.  

JAL -- Making the big assumption that Bix and Cruz have a fairly normal AAA to MLB transition, they should both hit better than Crosby.  My wording was a little different, but the thought was the same -- if we're going to pay part of Wilson's salary AND another 5.25 mil, why do it when we have two guys who can probably do at least that much, and now a shot at retaining Doug and picking up Loretta.  

You found me out.

I AM NUTTINGHOSTAGE!!!  (arms waving madly)

By the way, I thought you were very creative in responding to my call name.  Made me smile.

You creative types are always so sensitive!

@JAL--<Crosby>

It really is a moot subject anyway. It is the DT or the LAD or bust.

(I like the kid JMO)

Crosby can’t be judged on injury years alone. This kid hit 22 HRs in 2004. If that’s an indication of anything, it’s that the power is there – plain and simple.

Secondly, if you want a better comparison, take a look at this:

Jack Wilson career stats:

BA: .269

SLG: .375

OBP: .312

HR/AB: 56/4039

Bobby Crosby career stats:

BA: .239

SLG: .380

OBP: .306

HR/AB: 55/2153

Now, those are a little more indicative of player performance huh??? While Jack’s career average is slightly higher, Crosby edges Wilson in slugging, as he’s hit nearly the same number of home runs on half the at-bats. If these statistics show anything, it’s that the Pirates has clearly OVERPAID for Jack Wilson’s performance.

Moreover, when you couple in Crosby’s youth as well as his gold-glove, it’s easy to see who the superior short-stop is, especially for the money.

Lastly, it’s obvious that the pressure is on Crosby to perform. If that wasn’t the case, he wouldn’t have fallen out of favor in Oakland. Furthermore, 2009 is a walk year for him, so a switch to the NL hitting in front of the pitcher is likely to bolster his OBP with walks.

The Pirates have clearly stated that they want a young, major-league ready SS to replace Wilson. If you think that Luis Cruz is capable of handling that spot after 67 ABs in the show, you’re nuts! You can talk about the economy and production all you want, but the bottom line is that you’re going to have to pay $$$ to acquire a major-league ready shortstop. That being said, if Adam Everett is scooped up by the time Wilson is dealt, he’d be a realistic option for a year or two. But, if you want a little more youth, much more power potential, and a gold-glove caliber defensive SS, Bobby Crosby is your man.

It’s a no brainer. In fact, Crosby would be an immediate upgrade over Jack Wilson at $2 million less!!!

Kid

BK's right...moot point, but I like Crosby too.  

Blackbeard's Ghost,

"It’s a no brainer. In fact, Crosby would be an immediate upgrade over Jack Wilson at $2 million less!!!"

PLUS, the money and/or players Billy Beane would charge us to get him  .  .  .  .  for only one year.  

Crosby will be looking for a raise in 2010 to stay here, so why would it be worth taking the chance on his oft injured body and the switch of leagues for one season.

I'll give you credit for being creative.  I like that!

But unless Money Ball is willing to give Sydney to us, the cost of obtaining him would be a detriment to the future of our hapless wonders.

CK--First--keep this civil and don't call people nuts.  We can discuss things without getting insulting.

I never said said he would be as good or better than JW--I said and maintain that his production is not worth his salary--2004 was 4 seasons ago.  He played 145 games last year and hit .237 with 7 HR.  His life stats are skewed by his 2004 season, which is the out of whack one.

Lets take Wilson's last healthy years and compare to Crosby last year

BA--Wilson .296  Crosby .337

HR-Wilson 12 Crosby 7

RBI-Wilson  56 Crosby 61

OBP-Wilson .350  Crosby .296

SLG- Wilson .440 Crosby .349

The LA Daily News is reporting the Dodgers haven't spoken to the Pirates about Wilson in MONTHS (their caps, not mine). So I guess a lot of this is much ado about nothing. Again.

Someone's telling tales there...

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

(this has probably been posted before, but I dont' feel like scrolling all the way up *grin*)

@Plenty of Hope

There is hope then there is reality. Cruz cannot play SS  no range at all.  Can't lite the fire and put the pot on the stove with a step stool.  Forget it no way no how would it be good for the bucs.  Bixler is much better at SS.  Put cruz a SB or as a pinch hitter.  The ants that march to the new posts are have more range the cruz.  I watched him take one step and not even wave with the glove as a very playable ball went right by him more than one time.  But is is good to have that much hope for our bucs.  Just hate to see it wasted for something that is not good for us.

...and forget that DK said the two teams have been talking all week.  

JAL...

First off, relax. The fact that you'd even think the term "nuts" was intended as a personal attack is simply odd.

Secondly, I understand that production is an issue. As with any front office, they want to bank on solid, expected production, not merely a shot in the dark as to, "What do you think this guy's ceiling is for the upcoming season." I think both you and I will agree that that’s not smart executive thinking, but…

My point is simple and clear - with Bobby Crosby, the Pirates would have similar production with more upside in both the power and defense departments. Crosby's statistics and awards don't lie - they are what they are. He is a better SS than Jack Wilson, and you're response proves my point that the Pirates overpaid for Jack Wilson's numbers, whereas the A's signed a better, younger SS at more of a fair market value, in today's dollars that is.

Groat,

If you would have read my original posts, which you obviously didn't, you would have seen that my scenario involved three key pieces:

1) Wilson's new organization picks up his $7.25 million salary.

2) The A's sign Rafael Furcal as their new shortstop.

3) The Pirates use Crosby's $5.25 salary as a key bargaining chip. If the Bucs take on Crosby's remaining one-year $5.25 million contract, Beane can't command major talent in return, meaning Crosby would likely cost the Pirates no more than two tier-II prospects, such as LHP Dave Davidson and an additional INF or OF bat to be named later.

My thinking is more long-term and strategic in nature. However, Mark Loretta should ONLY be considered for a bench bat. If the Pirates want more of a utility man to fill the vacant SS position, they should be looking more a Nick Punto, who is five years Loretta's junior.

My plan to acquire Crosby is a realistic one that will net the Bucs a solid and capable SS option that commands a salary more at the fair market value. Moreover, if all the pieces fell into place [which, I'll admit is a big long shot], the move would free up $2 million in the 2009 budget. And, as the numbers show, the Pirates would NOT be sacrificing offensive production with the loss of Wilson and the acquisition of Crosby. Again, as the numbers clearly indicate, they'd be adding similar numbers in Crosby with an addition in power and an upgrade in defense.

There you have it. Thanks.

Kid

CK --

Crosby had a good rookie year, but nothing since.  How many injury years do you get?  We had great hopes for Kevin Young, too.  If you're talking about a placeholder until someone better comes along, fine -- maybe he'll come around, maybe he won't; but given where we are and what we're trying to do, I would be ok -- not ecstatic, but ok with giving Bix or Cruz a shot in 2009.  Probably, though, the team will look a lot different coming out of spring training than it does now.  

I would also have the basic hope that if Crosby is out there and available that Mr. Huntington and Mr. Beane would have been in touch.  It could be as simple as seeing whether or not they trade Jack.  

Captain Kid and Groat2Maz2Strangeglove---Catfight!!!!!

Just for a little aside:  JJ and I were talking at G1 and agreed (with me being more adamant) that if JW was traded it would be a salary dump.  Since the talk lately has been that to move JW they would have to eat part of his salary I would think that they are doing it not to save $$ but because they believe it is improving the club on a long term basis.  Why get rid of him to save money if you have to eat part of his salary?  And for accuracy sake, JW is owed $7.25 plus a $600k buyout if they don't want to pay him something like $8.3 next year (essentially $7.75 mil per year),when he most likely will be less valuable and more expensive.  I like JW as much as the next guy/gal, but we ain't the '71 Pirates, the Steelers any year or the 2008 Rays.

JHader,

"It could be as simple as seeing whether or not they trade Jack."

My point exactly. I'll admit, it's wishful thinking, but hey, you need to do whatever you can to get ramped up for next season, right?

"If you're talking about a placeholder until someone better comes along, fine -- maybe he'll come around, maybe he won't..."

You sum it up well there. What I was saying is that we give Crosby one-year at $5.25 million, $2 million less than what Wilson would command and expect similar production with more upside potential. If he overachieves, deal him at the deadline. If he doesn't, then he could either be a) granted free agency at the end of the season or; b) resigned at two or three years only if he commands a discount far below his current contract.

The bottom line is that it's a low-risk, short-term move that could pay off huge for the Pirates. But, if it doesn't, the worst case is that the Bucs would have to surrender two prospects that had little or no chance cracking a major-league roster long term anyway.

Kid

late night Link

Bucs have Money to Spend at meetings

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

For fun with a Pirate mention--O'Reilly and Dennis Miller

www.foxnews.com/.../0,2933,462065,00.html

I just wish someone would say what the Pirates would get. We got people picking out players that we don't even know are part of any discussion. As Groat said (I think it was him, it was a long time ago on this blog) with Bay and X, you knew what we were getting and where we had depth. But we don't have depth at SS, so it must be pretty fantastic for the Bucs to talk trade Jack, right? I personally want  a little instant gratification fantastic in 2009, even though gratification in 2013 is baseball business. So if we give up Jack are we getting Pujols or what?

CK

Odd?  Nuts--Used to express contempt, disappointment, or refusal

Or--Crazy; insane

Nuts is a strong pejorative word

I mistyped --the BA for Crosby was .237

I never meant to imply that Wilson was worth 7 mil, only that I see Crosby overpaid at 5 million.  As a one year stop-gap I could live with him but I would prefer someone younger who could play the position for several years.

I agree there is always a chance he return to something close to his first year but I see that chance as very low.  

Time for me to head off for the night--everyone have a good one.

PoH: I think the trade is Jack for Andy-- straight up.  And I mean ALL the way up. (?huh?)

Good night JAL