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Post-Gazette beat writers Dejan Kovacevic and Chuck Finder blog about the Pittsburgh Baseball Club.

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Morning links: A thirst for power

By Dejan Kovacevic | 12:49 a.m. Wednesday

Combining a couple of seemingly unrelated storylines from this week -- the Dominican series and the pursuit of Derrick Turnbow -- I am reminded of something I had intended to share from the recent trip: The Pirates want power.

Rene Gayo talked about it during and after the one tryout I watched, how the previous administration emphasized speed and other traits, both in terms of hitting and pitching, and even defense worked its way into that mix. But Gayo apparently was expressing his own philosophy when he stated bluntly, "You have to hit your way off the island," and the numbers will back him in all walks of baseball if you look at it from this simple standpoint: The best players are the ones that can do the most valuable things better than others.

For position players, that means hitting. With power.

For pitchers, that means throwing hard.

Anyone trying to make it more complicated than that is probably just muddying the picture.

So, Gayo looks for power -- though not exclusively -- and scouting director Greg Smith goes for power through much of his first draft, and Neal Huntington adds players at the major league level who, almost no matter their control history, can add power to the pitching staff. In the Turnbow article, I cite the examples of Tyler Yates, Denny Bautista and Evan Meek, and there surely will be more.

Linkage to the general coverage ...

The Pirates are talking to Turnbow, just like the creatively written lede describes.

The Q&A for yesterday can found a bit lower. The one for today will be up around lunch time.

And from other realms ...

Brent Lillibridge, the prospect the Pirates sent to Atlanta in the Adam LaRoche trade, was part of the multi-player deal the Braves made in getting Javier Vazquez from the White Sox yesterday. The Atlanta Journal-Constitution's David O'Brien, author of a tremendous daily blog there, reports that Lillibridge's prospect status slipped this year. Yet another reminder that trades are best evaluated after a good period of time. Remember that Dave Littlefield refused to give up Chris Duffy as the second component in that deal and was roundly criticized for it, just as the Braves were roundly criticized for acquiring Mike Gonzalez right before elbow surgery, just as the Pirates were criticized when LaRoche failed to hit in the first two months of his first two seasons ... and so on.

Operation Shutdown, indeed. (Thanks to Pat Lackey at Van Slyke for the link.)

The Detroit Free Press' Jon Paul Morosi reports that the Tigers and Pirates remain in touch about Jack Wilson.

Michael Ryan, a good guy who had a good spring for the Pirates in 2007, had quite a hard time digging up work after not cracking the roster, according to his hometown Indiana (Pa.) Gazette. Ryan still lives in the North Hills.


Posted Dec 03 2008, 12:49 AM by Dejan Kovacevic

Comments

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 1:00 AM

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- Bucs Dugout: Braves Get Vazquez:

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- MVN PBC.: 3 Links In One Place, Pirate Revolution, Pittsburgh Lumber Co., Sandlot Swashbucklers:

http://mvn.com/mlb/pirates/

- Raise the Jolly Roger: Rumors:

www.raisethejollyroger.com

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www.mondesishouse.blogspot.com

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http://hyzduhq.blogspot.com/

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- The Burgh Blues: Grabow Should Stay Put:

theburghblues.mlblogs.com

- The Green Weenie: The Other Sanchez:

www.oldbucs.blogspot.com

- The Sports Orphan: Two Teams Same Sad Results:

fanzak.com/.../Two_teams__The_same_sad_results

-MLB Blogs: Hot Stove And Other MLB Blogs:

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/blogs

PBC NEWS & NOTES (TODAY’S TOP PBC STORIES):

- PBC Homepage: Winter Meetings PBC to be Passive

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/index.jsp

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BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 1:01 AM

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WHO:

ALL INMATES OF THE ASYLUM

WHAT:

GATHERING III A and III B

WHEN:

2 DATES

III A: SATURDAY 06 DECEMBER 1:00 PM

III B: SUNDAY 07 DECEMBER 1:00 PM

WHERE:

III A: DUNKIN DONUTS, MARKET SQUARE

III B: VINCENTS PIZZA, MANSFIELD AVE. GREENTREE

WHY:

TO WISH YOUR FELLOW INMATES A HAPPY HOLIDAYS.

SEE YOU THERE!

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 1:01 AM

******SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT******

FROM JERSEY JOE:

We have publisher permission to share the cover and related stories to the 20 year commemorative Pittsburgh magazine edition for Roberto Clemente.  Well, JJ has been given permission to reproduce the story.

Please RSVP your interest in an almost magazine quality pamphlet bound copy at cost:  $15.00.  The best available paper at copy center, knockoff magazine paper will be used.

If you are interested in ordering or obtaining a copy please contact Jersey Joe directly at the following EM address:

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BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 1:03 AM

Good morning everyone!

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 1:06 AM

All set for a great day.  t minus 4 for the trip over the mountians.  

Turnbow = enrique romo if healthy?  

I know they won't do it, but Shawn Chacon out of the bullpen would be nice too.  

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 1:08 AM

@ALL--JUST A REMINDER FRANK COONELLY LIVE CHAT TODAY @ 2:00 PM

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../chat.jsp

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 1:10 AM

DK,

I loved the DR series, outstanding work, almost like the US in the 40s and 50s.

.  Any ideas if the Pirates just have a Northeast, Southeast, and West scouting director?  I know they have a California director, just wondering how comprehensive the scouting network is.  

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 1:10 AM

@WSB--<Trip over the mountains>

Where you headed?

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 1:11 AM

I like POWER too.  Adam Dunn has lots of power.  

Baywatch wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 1:12 AM

@WSB - "Shawn Chacon out of the bullpen would be nice too."

That's an interesting concept: I just wonder if anyone will be giving him another chance in the spring, since he'll  have had time to lay low for awhile ... Dunno, that was pretty bad what he did in Houston, then no remorse on the follow up.

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 1:13 AM

BK- I was referring to the my trip west "over the mountains" to Pittsburgh.

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 1:16 AM

Oh, and it had better not snow on Sunday too.  Its too early to put the skis on truck (grin).

Seriously.  

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 1:16 AM

@WSB,Bay--I am out for the night.

Last one out lock up please.

See you in a few.

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 1:19 AM

@WSB--<Trip to the Burgh>

Cool Then we will see you this weekend.

Safe Driving.

Shiny Side Up Rubber Side Down.

TheBurghBlues wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 1:19 AM

SHAWN CHACON FOR LIFE! You all know I am the #1 fan of the Chac Attack. If he would return... oh boy. Haha.

Turnbow? Really? I'd rather have Chacon, thank you.

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 1:20 AM

Bay- I don't know Chacon, but Ed Wade had very poor relations with the Phillies personnel that I know of.  Seems to be one of those smart aleck characters.   I don't condone what he did, but I can understand it.  Wade shouldn't have used profanity.  

Not one traded anyone from the Yankees when Billy Martin or Lou Pinella sparred with their players.  Now with the 24/7 cable its a big scandal and the distractions must end.  

WhyStanBelinda wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 1:26 AM

TBB- and you know he'll be affordable to, with lots of "personality" incentives.  His arm will be fresh. Is Chacon better than Capps, no.  Is is the at worst the 12th man on any staff in MLB?   yes. 11th or 12th works for me. Long relief and 7-8 time for a guy who has been humbled.

Maybe we can spring Ugeth Urbina? That guy is a bizarre case.

JL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 2:29 AM

I'm a Shawn Chacon fan, too. Maybe not on the level of TBB, but I'd be happy to see him back. That is, if there's a role for him. Seems to me that the guys who lose out in March for the starting rotation slots would be the first candidates to flesh out the bullpen. Though maybe the losers of the SP competition will be sent to Indy to keep them starting games. But even if Grabow is traded, we already have Burnett and Yates coming back. Capps, of course, is inked in as closer. But be it Chacon, Turnbow, Evan Meek or Craig Hanson, a competition it'll be. Which I'm sure is what NH is wanting to set up. He knows what happened last year after he determined the starting rotation before anyone had even thrown a pitch.

Chacon shouldn't have throttled Wade. But he had already been demoted to the bullpen, and from reading reports at the time, I was under the impression that Chacon was about to be cut. In any event, Wade was being gratuitously nasty, the exact opposite of how he should have been treating a player who was about to be given more bad news --possibly a pink slip. I'm going to jettison political correctness and be candid: I empathized with Shawn. And so he did what he did and then became blackballed for the rest of the season. Alright then. Fair enough. He did his crime, but then he did his time. Pirates players said he was always a good egg while with us. I now say, if someone --including us-- has an opening, give him a spring invite. End the blacklisting. If Pacman Jones can keep getting reinstated, surely Chacon can be aloud to play again.

PI Stingray wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 3:11 AM

I say that if he is found to be healthy, sign Turnbow to a minor league deal with the chance to make the club if he proves himself in spring training. What do either the Bucs or Turnbow have to lose? As for Chacon, I think the FC/NH regime will probably dismiss him, since he was a Littlefield acquisition (but you never know)....

madturk2008 wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 3:13 AM

Turnbow had a slight tear of the labrum in his right shoulder last year and was shut down.   Do we really want to take a chance on an injured pitcher?   Maybe if the cost is real low and he shows something then a maybe but....

madturk2008 wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 3:16 AM

Does Chacon have anything left in the tank?  I liked him when he was here but we are looking at players that do not fit the "build" dorection that we keep hearing about.  Old, injured  or past their prime.   Not the way I would like to see things go.

JL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 5:33 AM

Mad,

"Does Chacon have anything left in the tank?... Old, injured  or past their prime..."

Yes, if Chacon has nothing left to offer us, then I'm with you. It's just that, as WhyStanBelinda points out, he should be available at a steep discount. I say offer him a non-guaranteed minor league contract, and give him a chance to prove if there is anything left in the tank. If not, we've lost nothing. Send him on his way, and hopefully he won't choke anybody before exiting. I'm, of course, hoping the younger guns we have take it to the next level in '09. But as '08 proved, we can never have enough arms in the system. When all the wheels were falling of last July, we really could have used Shawn Chacon.  

JL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 6:11 AM

By declining arbitration to every last one of their eligible players, the Yankees are really clearing out the dead wood to make way for some crazy bids for Sabathia, and maybe Texiera, if the two don't agree to arbitration, now that both have been offered it.  Not that I think we should consider him for even a nanosecond, but I'm curious about what will happen to Jason Giambi. His option was for an obscene $22 million. I wonder where he'll end up and how much he'll be overpaid in '09.

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 6:19 AM

@JL/Madturk/PI--You 3 kept the lights on all night...Wow I am impressed.

Have a great day everyone.

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 6:36 AM

@Mad/JL--Chacon

I agree with you both...Non-roster invite, push the kids, 1 extra arm in the competition. If he is servicable offer him a Minor League contract and see what happens. If he is good major league minimum and toss him in the BP until July and someone from Indy is ready to take his place if not sooner. Run him out every chance you get as a veteran he should be able to handle the workload. If he hangs around all season, playoff contenders are always looking for 1 more arm. trade bait. I would typically shy away from a pitcher like him but he had a pleasant history here and may be worth a looksee.  

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 6:41 AM

Need to run be back soon...

SirLochsby wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 6:47 AM

Because you really need to know this:

73 DAYS UNTIL PITCHERS AND CATCHERS!!*

(*This countdown is currently calibrated to an unofficial reporting date of February 14th, 2009.  When the reporting date becomes official, this countdown will be recalibrated as required.  There is some rumbling out there of Feb. 17th, but nothing official that I can find.  Thank you.)

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 6:48 AM

Morning Links Part 3

Korea and the World baseball Classic

www.koreatimes.co.kr/.../136_35539.html

Changing up the game

www.sfgate.com/.../article.cgi

Baseball Notes: Brocail, Astros agree

www.philly.com/.../20081203_Baseball_Notes__Brocail__Astros_agree.html

Selig downplays '09 expectations

www.reuters.com/.../idUSTRE4B187T20081203

Three potential suitors give second-round bids for Chicago Cubs

www.google.com/.../ALeqM5joY57Vz8iWXTQNjBrTWPW2wwAxsA

The History of Baseball's Antitrust Exemption

www.beyondtheboxscore.com/.../the-history-of-baseball-s

Arriba Wilver wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 8:14 AM

Morning all.  The Derek Bell link made me start wondering which was the worst pickup by the Pirates since the '79 World Series. Some obvious candidates are Bell, Joggin' George Hendrick and Raul Mondesi.  Certainly Pat Meares also is a candidate, but his problem was injury related, which makes it a little different IMO.  Bell certainly is at or near the top.

By the way, I like this thirst for power by Neal.  I was a little shocked to see that the former regime focused more on speed, because we haven't had speed in this century other than Nyjer and Duffy.  How were they focusing on speed?

diehard wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 8:31 AM

Good morning all.  Shawn Chacon has always been a bit overrated.  I can see the Pirates siging YOUNG hard throwers, but Chacon has ben around for 8 MLB seasons now, and the potential will not likely be fulfilled.  For one, the attitude has been an issue - even here, he did gripe about being in the bullpen, even though it was his best fit.  He may have been a positive influence at the time on Ian Snell, but he's slipped since.  (And I think he's not the influence want on Snell as far a maturing goes at this point.)  Also, he's only actually had 2 good seasons, 2005 and 2007.  In 2004 he saved 35 games, but that came with a 1-9 record and a 7.11 ERA.  Lifetime WHIP is around 1.5.  I thought about him last year after the Astros released him, but dug up the numbers - plus I think DK addressed it in a Q&A and there was a comment there about the attitude as well.

diehard wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 8:37 AM

By the way, if it hasn't been posted - Piratefest is January 23-25.  I went last year, and it was a pretty good time, and at least my kids enjoyed all the bobbleheads they got for trying things.  For us the event of the day was trying to catch a pop up.  My son had broken his femur a few weeks before (got to meet the Pens at Children's hospitla for the trouble) - so I was running him around in a wheelchair with his bright red body cast and JW shirt trying to catch a ball.  It was quite a sight - and he had a few glance off the mitt.  (You try fielding a ball in that state - not easy!)  

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../piratefest.jsp

Chicken on the Hill with Will wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 8:42 AM

Arriba Wilver

Good (bad?) candidates for worst pick-up since '79. Hard to top Bell but to that list for consideration, I would like to add Amos Otis (truly painful to watch, felt bad for him), Steve Kemp, Rey Quinones and Benito Santiago.

As (dis)honorable mention candidates, Mike Brown (at least he had 1/2 of a good season) and Brant Brown. And maybe for good measure, Carmelo Martinez (although that was a mistake in more ways than one).

Baywatch wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:31 AM

Good Morning, All!

"Shawny, How I love you, How I Love you ... My dear old Shawny!

I'd give the world to be, among the folks in P-L-A-Y-O-F-F-S!"

Well, hmmm ... I really don't care too much one way or another about His Strangleholdedness ... my bad, I take that back: I got onto NH about name-calling before.

I only throw this out there ... Remember that it seems like in Spring Training they invite just about everybody that will sign a minor league contract and heave a ball. For example, last year, how about the old Redleg, Hector Carrasco, and Byung Hung Andy "Rock Me Gently" Kim.

I think, though, given his tirade in Houston, it will be interesting to see if anyone gives him a shot. And I wonder if Jerry Jones of the Cowboys is a might more gracious at taking on head cases than the rest of the sports world. I think we'd all have to agree that T.O. has worked out as one of his projects.

Well, maybe all WOULDN'T AGREE, particularly with the big game coming up Sunday ... Now, gang, this is our season on the line, so y'all be nice to our Cowgirls!

diehard - I put a feeler out for you yesterday. I may shoot you an e-mail. Been listening to some nice jazz lately.

Oh. By the way, I just fell down the stairs on purpose, and have been outfit in a body cast, so someone can run me around in a wheelchair at PirateFest to see if I can catch a popup!

48jj wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:31 AM

No to Turnbow. The Pirates do not need more pitchers with control issues. Adding someone to the roster just because they're affordable is not the way to build a championship caliber team.

JHadar wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:33 AM

Worst Pick-Up Since 1979 (tempted to say those little Datsuns in the '80's)  

You have to add Matt Morris to the list just on the basis of return on investment, and I still would have to put Bobby Hill right there.  Meares for worst contract.  

If you get into runner-up candidates the list gets long indeed.

Baywatch wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:34 AM

@Chicken - I was totally shocked to learn that Amos Otis played for us! He was one of my favorite all-time players ... He only played in 40 games in '84.

uglyken wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:35 AM

Good morning inmates

I really don't have an issue with giving (a much humbled?) Chacon a chance. It would be very low risk on our part, and while I would tend to shy away from players with potential personality issues, he seemed to fit in here OK his last go around. He isn’t the type of player that is going to impact this team to any great extent, but he may be that extra arm we need for now while the youngsters are still honing their skills down on the farm.

uglyken wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:44 AM

@JHadar <<If you get into runner-up candidates the list gets long indeed.>>

That is all too true, while we have made some pretty horrific acquisitions of the years, I think that it’s the weight of all those bad but not historically horrible moves that have us wondering around at the bottom of the standings year after year.

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:45 AM

Bell, Cepeda return for Visalia Rawhide in 2009--but not the ones you may first think of

www.visaliatimesdelta.com/.../812030310

diehard wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:48 AM

Bay - I'll be in and out today.  Fire away!

Capn wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:49 AM

Hi, all.  Today we start off with Chacon and Turnbow, I see.

Regarding Chacon, I'm surprised to see that so many are writing that it's worth giving him a chance.  Several weeks ago, we were criticizing NH for signing Michaels b/c of character issues.  Chacon's issues are way over the top by comparison.

I don't see Turnbow accepting a minor league contract unless he thinks he has nothing left.  Don't you think he'd hold out for more than that, given that he's only had one really bad year?  Also, while I'm no fan of anything the Yankees do (like grooming rules), I'd like to suggest that Turnbow get a haircut.  Looking like a dufus doesn't help your presence on the mound.

uglyken wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 10:07 AM

Bay

This is a very important stretch for the Steelers,......expect them, and the fans to be in rear form for your Cowboys.

Chicken on the Hill with Will wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 10:09 AM

@ BW - Yessir, MMT (my main Texan), and what a memorable 40 those were. In fact, it only lasted that long because he was so bad. Poor guy hit .165 and fielded even worse, couldn't go back on a fly ball anymore. I have one memory of a ball actually bouncing off of him, although to be honest, I don't remember anymore whether it actually happened or I just imagined it happening since it seemed like a distinct possibility. Sad ending for a former gold glover.

@ JHadar-  As far as worst pick-up is concerned, how did I forget Morris? I think I must have blocked it out due to the trauma involved. I actually don't consider Bobby Hill a pick-up -- more of a way of trying to mask a salary dump, but if one is going to include Carmelo Martinez, then Hill should receive consideration.

While I agree on Meares, my vote for worst contract since '79 is Jason Kendall.  One qualification: I agree that it made sense at the time, unfortunately, it turned out to be a financial albatross, $10 mln/yr for an eventual slap hitter.

irate fan wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 10:23 AM

@ Bay - Early in the second half, during a commercial break, this will come on the scoreboard at Heinz Field. At that point, it is over for the Cowboys. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

www.youtube.com/watch

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 10:25 AM

Worst Contracts--tough choices.

Kendall may have the most economically draining but his contract was overpaying for the type of hitter he was.  Kendall played, played hard, and played well for what he was--hit .325 and .319 his last seasons in Pittsburgh.

I go with Derek Bell--9 million for one terrible season and then he walks out on the team.  That is a lot of money for nothing.  Morris was bad but at least he tried--just had nothing left and still got 3 wins.

uglyken wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 10:27 AM

@Capan <<Several weeks ago, we were criticizing NH for signing Michaels b/c of character issues.  >>

I think that the only one that expressed extreme criticism toward Michales was NuttingHostage. The majority of the posts were countering Hostage's criticism. I'm not sure that I agree that his scuffle was worse than Michaels with the police (just more publicized).

madturk2008 wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 10:35 AM

@JL @BIllykidd @ diehard

Ok, Chacon if he comes cheap and can out perform the young guys that will need to grow next year.  Key word (boy haven't used that phrase for a long time) "Grow" We have a young team and looking at the future, not the win now at all cost.  diehard had a very good point as i recall that he wants to start not work out of the bullpen.

Turnbow does nothing for me at all.  With the shoulder and cost that may be involved I don't see the addition of him for forward thinking either.  Remember this team has to look forward and not back.  

Now if we have a claring hole to fill in the short term and the price is right and the player can at least pitch over the plate and eat innings then I am okay with that.  Otherwise let the youngs guys learn or work their way out of our plans.

JHadar wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 10:41 AM

JAL -- Bell was probably the worst, but I couldn't let Morris go un-nominated.  

Character counts... Bell discouraged the fans -- and the Meares/Bell/Kendall contracts led to dumping Ramirez.  As you point out, Morris at least tried -- and the silver lining there is that instead of dumping Ramirez we dumped Littlefield.

jersey joe wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 10:46 AM

I vote with Billy on shacon, let him come and push but our target has to be the young arms or a show stopper

uglyken wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 10:49 AM

@JHadar <<Character counts... Bell discouraged the fans -- and the Meares/Bell/Kendall contracts led to dumping Ramirez.  As you point out, Morris at least tried -- and the silver lining there is that instead of dumping Ramirez we dumped Littlefield. >>

While I'm not sure which screw-up led to his demise, the dumping of Littlefield may be the smartest thing we've done in 16 years.

JHadar wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 11:03 AM

MT << Ok, Chacon if he comes cheap and can out perform the young guys that will need to grow next year. >>

That's a couple of big if's.  Let's say we get five starters from Maholm, Snell, Gorzelany, Dumatrait, Ohlendorf, Duke, and Karstens.  Then you have two of those guys going to the pen, leaving five spots for Grabow, Capps, Burnett, Yates, Hansen, possibly Turnbow, Chavez, Taubenheim to fight over.  There are also some other guys who could break through.  And no doubt we'll audition a few bypassed FA's with non-roster invites.

Character issues aside, can Chacon make the team out of spring training without a pass?  As far as I can tell he'd have at best an outside chance and be a replacement part.  

JHadar wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 11:07 AM

UK << dumping of Littlefield may be the smartest thing we've done in 16 years. >>

And the second smartest was dumping Bonifay!  

Baywatch wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 11:09 AM

@irate - Did you shoot that video? I should be off in time to catch at least the second half of Sunday's game ... I hope it's a good one.

And since it looks like my move to Pittsburgh has been drastically postponed, I'm going to go ahead and say it:

"HOW 'BOUT DEM COWBOYS!!"

All kidding aside, I'd have to say, given the Cowboys terrible record in December the past several years, if they come up big and beat the Steelers, Giants, Ravens and Eagles to close out the year, I don't think there will be any stopping them in the playoffs ...

unless, of course, they wind up playing the Cardinals again ... Sheesh!

Alright, baseball guys, that's all you'll hear from me today, on football, on this thread ... sorry.

leadoff wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 11:11 AM

Chacon--

I think he would be a good pickup if we used him exclusively in the bullpen, since he is in no position to bargin he probably be more agreeable about relief pitching than he was. He would be the 2nd or 3rd best pitcher we have if you look at the rest of the bullpen.

People get into fights it happens, but we are not a forgiving nation anymore. My opinion is the altercation is and was between him and Wade and no one else.

The new Pirate administration in my opionion is too enamored with hard throwers, yes I like them too, but not to the point that the administration does, they don't care if they can throw the ball over the plate or over the backstop. Think about it we have Bautistia , great guy for turning behind by 1 run games into behind  by 7 run games, (innings eater?)Hanson, can't throw it in the ocean from the shore and now we want to add Turnbow, who can't throw it from the ocean onto the shore. Give me a break, bring in someone who can pitch!!!!!!!

Big Poppa Pump wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 11:16 AM

Hi Everybody,

Chacon is turning into a bag of balls. He is a head case. The pirates do not want to deal with that.

PI Stingray wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 11:18 AM

Another bad signing to consider was Alejandro Pena in 1993. The Bucs were enamored with Pena since he helped defeat them in the 92 playoffs. Pena blew out his arm and spent all of 93 on the DL. In 94 when he finally got to pitch he had a misleading 3-2 record in relief but over a 5.00 ERA. He was simply a BUST when you consider his inflated salary and was released in June or July of 94.

dubers15801 wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 11:24 AM

Turnbow would make sense with a minor league deal or after an extensive physical.  I believe he'll eventually need surgery.

DK stated that they NH is after POWER pitchers.  Hopefully, these are power pitchers with a decent changeup.  Anyone can hit a fastball, no matter how fast it's traveling.  Definately need more power at the plate.

diehard wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 11:33 AM

I think part of the focus on hard throwers is that we've had so few of them in the system.  Too many "pitch to contact" guys and finesse pitchers.  You need some of both.

DMac wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 11:33 AM

Hey there everyone!

I'm not sure which I'm less enthused about...Chacon and his possible attitude issues, which may or may not surface here, or Turnbow with possible shoulder issues.  I mean, Freddy took all season to get anywhere near to form after having surgery a year ago.  And Duffy never made it back to Pittsburgh, and I believe it was a similar injury, if maybe more severe.  

And someone mentioned Taubenheim...Isn't he a free agent?  He's not on Indy's roster, or the 40-man anymore.

diehard wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 11:37 AM

Wasn't the labrum what kept Schneppers from being signed?

JHadar wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 11:41 AM

DMac --

Missed Taubenheim becoming a free agent.   Thanks.

madturk2008 wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 11:47 AM

@JHadar

I do agree with you.  I don't think we will see him in a Pirate uni next year.  I was throwing a bone to those that made some pionts on his behalf.  I want us to go with the young guys and watch them grow or toss them out of the system.

@leadoff

Big IF if he would go to the bullpen.  Then again we have young guys that can fill that roll as well.  If the ones that don't make the starting roll it would help them adjust, learn and get aquainted with Pirate ball.  Hopefuly which will be better under Kerrington.  If we were looking at someone for a spot and had a wining team and to fill that slot maybe.  but not now with this team and where and how we want to move forward.  

Arriba Wilver wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 12:15 PM

PI-I agree that Pena was a bust, but I think he was the guy who had just signed a deal and reworked it or spread it out because he thought he did not deserve it.  I'm not positive, but I think that is what occurred.  Even in '93 that did not happen, so I think he deserves a pass when considering his less-illustrious company.  Certainly deserves to be on the list, though.  

I know there was some talk last year that Morris might do something to reduce his contract, but he didn't sign it with the Pirates and they bought him with it so he would have been crazy to not take the money.

Speaking of Morris, there is an interesting answer by DK in the Q&A about Littlefield in that he said he was told recently that all of Littlefield's lieutenants, except a non-baseball one, were against the Morris trade.  Hadn't heard that or missed it before.

Arriba Wilver wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 12:21 PM

diehard--I agree there was too much of a turn away from the hardthrowers in the past.  I assumed that it was because (1)hard throwers may be more expensive and (2) they were spooked by the ultimately wasted pick of Bobby Bradley, who by all accounts was a flamethrower.  It does seem a mix makes sense, but we have so many of the softies already that Neal may be just trying to even the scales.

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 12:30 PM

Arriba

Bradley was not a flamethrower.  He was breaking ball thrower which was many team shied away from him--they thought he had thrown so many curves at young age that he was an injury waiting to happen.  That is exactly what happened.  

irate fan wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 12:55 PM

@ Bay - <Did you shoot that video? I should be off in time to catch at least the second half of Sunday's game ... I hope it's a good one.>

No. I just found it on you tube. It gets the crowd fired up and that gets the defense fired up. Most teams go 3 and out after the video.

G-Man wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 1:03 PM

The thing in the Turnbow piece that got my attenion most was not the injury but the high walk total. Didn't we just finish at or near the bottom in giving up walks? Turnbow does not seem like someone we need when we already have plenty of guys who lack control.

irate fan wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 1:08 PM

Turnbow should only be signed if he has a clause that if his labrum tears, his contract is void. He is an injury waiting to happen.

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 1:10 PM

G-man

Finished with 2nd highest walk total in MLB--Orioles--687--Pirates 657--Giants 652--Tigers 644, Mariners 626, Texas 625.  

Least walks was the Twins at 406

Plenty of Hope wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 1:16 PM

Good day inmates.

High walk total. shoulder damage. ERA in the mid teens.

WHAT? Srlsy?

Are we trying to recreate the flipping past here? Someone tell ME who is on the phone talking to Turnbow's people and I will GO IN THAT OFFICE AND HANG UP THE PHONE. AND THEN I WILL FLICK THAT PERSON IN THE FOREHAD.

C'mon already.

irate fan wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 1:21 PM

Go get em PoH

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 1:22 PM

POH

You go girl!

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 1:32 PM

Red Sox Sign Pedroia  to long term contract

www.boston.com/.../pedroia_signs_e.html

Baywatch wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 1:43 PM

Gang, Gang, Gang! I think we need to keep a few things in perspective here, on our Turnbow prospects.

A) No way they're going to sign him to a Major League contract ... If anything it would be one of those minor league contracts, like the minimum with a chance of making the big club out of spring training. I think they learned their lesson on Andy Kim last spring, having to buy him out before he threw a full batting practice session.

B) They invite ALL KINDS of people to spring training to see what if ... My grandmother got an invite with them in 1951 ...

C) On the positive side, if Turnbow gets religion between now and then, and can harness that 97 mph heater of his, we found ourselves a find.

I would be totally surprised if they give Turnbow anything more than the jock strap that Jeromy Burnitz left behind.

JL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 1:47 PM

Regarding Turnbow, or Chacon for that matter, I don't think there's any problem having a cattle call for spring training tryouts, just as long as we're not signing them to any dumb contracts that makes it hard to cut them if they don't impress. If we do (like that money we threw away on Byung Hung Kim) then I'll be right behind POH in giving NH the forehead flicking treatment.

Shawn Chacon's locker room scuffle does not reach the level of Michaels ' with Philadelphia's finest --and I don't even have a problem with Michaels being on our club. I can't express my sentiment on Chacon any better than Leadoff did, so I just quote him: "People get into fights it happens, but we are not a forgiving nation anymore." Let's *forgive* Chacon for the locker room scuffle. But if he doesn't impress in March, it's also okay to *forget* him.

But the way,  "Byung" in Korean, means "not well."  

Arriba Wilver wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 2:05 PM

JAL on B Bradley--My bad; I knew other teams thought he was injury waiting to happen, but I had always assumed, maybe based on his strikeout totals being high, that he was a hard thrower, but I see his out pitch was the curve, not a flaming fast ball.  

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 2:08 PM

I agree with JL--the more players you look at the more likely you are to find a gem.  No big contracts until they prove themselves.  Last season DD was a good example of how to proceed.

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 2:12 PM

Arriba

Some pitchers get a lot of strikeouts with the cuve--it just that not many have a great one.  See Blyleven, Bert--3,701 strikeouts--8 seasons over 200 strikeouts--great curve

leadoff wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 2:29 PM

We should consider that the National League is a pitchers league and the American league is more of a hard thrower league. If you want to get the Albert Puhols types out, pitching is how to do it, ask Snell about throwing hard to Puhols, Snell spent a lot of time getting a new ball from the umpires.  I also believe that there are a lot of players we could sign or trade for that would look good in a Pirate uniform, but can they win against the Cubs, Cards and Brewers. Our soft tossing lefties don't match up well with them other than the one exceptional pitcher we have (Maholm). I think Maholm has reached the level that he can probably pitch against anyone, barring any setbacks we better be prepared to pay him.

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 2:46 PM

Laedoff

Hate to bring Duke up again but August 27 against the Cubs

8 innings   7 hits  2 runs 2 earned runs 2 walks 6 strikeouts

Lost 2-0 but he matched up well that game--just needs to do it more often

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 2:49 PM

DId anyone join in on the FC Chat/Q&A?

leadoff wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 2:57 PM

JAL--

I noted that Maholm also matched up well, I should have explained myself a little better, I meant that our soft tossers were not ready on a regular basis too handle the Cubs, Cards and Brewers. They can certainly mature and take on these clubs, but when? I still think I would take my chances against these teams with pitchers of the Peavy mold. My problem with the soft tossers is they need an umpire to cooperate, these young pitchers can not seem to compensate when they don't get the part of the plate they need and with primarily right hand hitting power, these three teams are tough matches.

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 3:01 PM

@JAL-Duke-

I think he was on his way to turning things around by the end of the season. I just hope that he remebers where he was and that Kerrigan does not mess with him too much. He seems the most "sensitive" to change.

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 3:06 PM

Leadoff

Good point.  When is the big question.  Good pitchers are able to adjust to changing situations.  

DMac wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 3:09 PM

@BK...My vote on most sensitive would be Snell, honestly. But I agree that Duke was on his way to turning things around.

leadoff wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 3:13 PM

JAL/BK

One Thing I did notice about Duke, Gorzo and Snell, they all have a similar problem, they cannot pitch out of the stretch nearly as well as without the stretch, this could be an area a pitching coach could help with.

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 3:14 PM

BK

Yes, he pitched much better the last part of the season.  He does seem sensitive to change--probably more so in delivery than strategy.

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 3:16 PM

Leadoff

Good observation.   Sometimes minor corrections have major effects.  We can hope that will be the case with this staff.

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 3:21 PM

Branyan signed a 1 year contract with the Mariners and Renteria looks to be heading to the Giants.

JHadar wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 3:26 PM

Leadoff -- Over the past several years the American League hard throwers have managed to beat the NL pitchers more often than not in interleague play.  

Both styles work if you put the ball where it's supposed to go.  I think the perceived difference has more to do with the DH than the superiority of one style over the other.

Consistent umpiring is a whole other issue.  Maybe it's a problem in that maybe in order to get a strike they have to throw a more hittable pitch -- but I tend to think that the real problem is that junk pitches are a little harder to throw accurately than real heat.  

I agree that a guy with command of three or four pitches who can throw strikes when he needs to is what we need.  We're lookin' for a Bob Gibson and so far we've maybe found a couple of serviceable Ryne Duren types -- but we haven't hit the jackpot just yet.

leadoff wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 3:40 PM

JH--

We tried to get Price from the Rays, but Bay couldn't bring him, even their 2nd or 3rd best pitcher, most of these teams that get the quality hard throwers get them through the draft, question is how long can they throw hard before they have arm troubles, and then they have to learn how to throw junk. A couple of years ago the Tigers had the hardest throwing group you could want, lost in the Series and have not been heard from since.

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 3:53 PM

leadoff

Sometime I wonder if the Tiger pitchers never recovered from the WS troubles they had.

Plenty of Hope wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 4:00 PM

Let me just say that I am STILL proud of Paul Maholm for striking out Barry Bonds in 2007 at the Giants house.

I know yinz can say what you want to about Bonds, but the man can read a pitch and hit it out of the park. Whatever he injected into his body did not change his ability to choose a pitch. In that game, Paul pitched to him - not around him - and struck him out. I teared up. Srsly. That was huge - to  me - for Paul at his age at the time to face the bear at the plate and win.

Just an observation I have - Snell is the one that gets frustrated mentally, from what I've read. Say the wrong thing to him between innings and his ability to pitch his game is affected. Duke seems the most easily messed up in terms of tweaking delivery, etc. Snell was, for one game, able to channel CC Sabathia and have a great game after watching CC pitch on the itty bitty screen on Snell's phone when he was at a mall the night before. He can do whatever the heck he wants with that arm, seems to me, he just needs his mindset babied. I think that's crap - he needs to put on his big girl panties, man up and pitch in the majors like he's getting paid to do... but there is a difference in Duke and Snell and what affects them, I think.

DMac wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 4:19 PM

LOL...Well put, PoH, on all accounts.

That whole series in SF in 2007 was a beautiful thing to watch and the K on Bonds was the icing on the cake.

leadoff wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 4:28 PM

@POH-. I think that's crap - he needs to put on his big girl panties, man up and pitch in the majors like he's getting paid to do...

I totally agree, one of my pet peeves among many, why send the cheerleader out to the mound every game in the first or second inning that Snell pitches , the boss should go out there and give him a kick in the panties, I am from the Chuck Noll school, If you can't play you need to get on with your life's work. I don't believe in babying players.

DMac wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 4:29 PM

Along with no crying in baseball, there's no pouting either and Snell seems to pout on when things aren't going his way.  :-)

JHadar wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 4:30 PM

JAL -- a couple of pitchers who had trouble in the WS and never recovered were Dizzy Dean and Vern Law.  Probably others, too.

Leadoff -- Can't argue with the value of picking up good arms in the draft.  Littlefield's plan, but he just couldn't execute it.  Like you've said a few times, there's value in knowing what you're looking at.  

Another thing that someone mentioned -- the value of balance in the pitching staff.  I think we've been hurt the past couple of years because we show the same team two or three lefty junkballers in the same series.  And, we have more than one guy who doesn't pitch well from the stretch.

G-Man wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 4:39 PM

PoH -

You had me at "flick the forehead." I would rather see us sign Rachael Ray's husband as a pinch hitter. He's so short he'd walk every time.

leadoff wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 4:39 PM

JH==

I totally agree with you on the balance issue, you can't pitch 2 or 3 soft tossers in a row, but don't you think management should realize this when they are assembling a team.

JHadar wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 4:53 PM

The mental side of sport is fascinating.  Stress, adrenaline, and confidence level seem to affect different ones different ways.  

The stat guys will tell you there's no such thing is a clutch hitter, that it just happens that someone gets the big hits and the reputation that goes with them, while others strike out and acquire the choke label.  People who actually play the games will tell you otherwise.  

Timing, power, concentration, and coordination are all affected.  Some get better under pressure, and some get worse.  Still others' performance depends on getting off to a good start, while a different one may play better after they get a mistake under their belt.  

Snell seems to be one of the latter -- if he starts well, he's usually ok, but if he gets rattled he's pretty much a goner until the next time.  

Duke tends to be good for a while and then lose it in spectacular fashion.  I also think his numbers were hurt a bit by JW's willingness to hope his pitchers would recover and leave them in the game longer than they should (or you could say to rest the bullpen.)  

Groat2Maz2Strangeglove wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 5:07 PM

PoH,

Who are you, and what did you do with my friend PLENTYofHOPE!?!

Yesterday you were busting on Duke and Dumatrait and Big LaRoche and, I took it, Ian Snell.  Today you are going crazy on Ian Snell again!!

Where's the HOPE?  Where's the positive attitude?  Where's the "Pirates Forever, no matter what!"?  

Big Girl Pants!?!  

WHO ARE YOU?????  Are you Hostage in disguise?

By the way, I agree with everything you said!            (except for Zach Duke——he was the 2nd best pitcher last year, and the bullpen let in about 15 of the runs he was charged with last year!)

Plenty of Hope wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 5:17 PM

Groat -

It's hard to maintain the hope some days when you read about your team, committed to a future of good baseball, on the phone with a pitcher who has a bad shoulder, ERA in the mid-teens and a high walk number when the VERY THING WE ARE TRYING TO GET AWAY FROM IS BAD FREAKING PITCHING.

I'm having a girl dog of a day here. So shoot me.

Someone. Please. shoot me.

leadoff wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 5:26 PM

@JH--

The mental side of sport is fascinating.  Stress, adrenaline, and confidence level seem to affect different ones different ways.  

The stat guys will tell you there's no such thing is a clutch hitter, that it just happens that someone gets the big hits and the reputation that goes with them, while others strike out and acquire the choke label.  People who actually play the games will tell you otherwise.  

I think you have a good point!

Nerves have everything to do with a player's performance, I still think Bixler had a bad case of the nerves, the guy has to many fundamentals that are very good to give up on, I think Andy LaRoach may have had the same problem, Pressing you know, I know it is the bigs, but nerves don't care, they come most youngsters.

JL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 5:28 PM

I couldn't agree more with the direction POH took the conversation." The mental side of sport", to use JHadar's phrasing, is so crucial, and something management needs to address more squarely. We've talked about it a little before, but can never talk about it enough. Guys like Paul Maholm and Nate McClouth seem to have that "X" factor in spades. They just will themselves to achieve, to get-r-done. Guys like John Van Benshcoten, or Jose Castillo, sadly didn't have it. Snell, I think, can find it within himself, but as you all say, he needs to grow up fast or it's not going to happen.

Some guys are born with it, like Greg Maddux. And some guys have to be sat down and told to grow up --Curt Schilling was an example of the latter. But most of all, management needs to try and identify these players and make them Pirates.    

Groat2Maz2Strangeglove wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 5:30 PM

Good-n-Plenty,

It does me good to see you 'fired up.'

Go home after work and take a hot bath:  a long soak with bubbles.

Or, better yet take a hot shower——Ian Snell will join you after 3 1/3 innings!

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 5:41 PM

Wow! I leave the room for a bit and PoH gets everybody's panties in a bunch...

@G-Man--<Rachels Ray's Husband>

LMAO

Baywatch wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 5:55 PM

Plenty - There's only one thing that will take care of what ails ye. When you get off work tonight, drive over to Smoketown in the Dutch Country and EAT IT OFF!

You need a little Baked Country Ham, Mashed Potatoes, Roast Beef, Crispy Fried Chicken, Baked Country Sausage, Noodles, Vegetables, Chow Chow, Pork & Sauerkraut, Pepper Cabbage, Homemade Bread, Shoo Fly Pie . . . and much, much more!

They got your smorgasbord all set up over at your namesake restaurant: www.goodnplenty.com/index.html

JL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 5:59 PM

BK,

"PoH gets everybody's panties in a bunch..."

Ha ha! Yeah, POH has been especially forceful today. But I kind of like everything she's had to say. Or as G-Man put it, she "had me at "flick the forehead."

POH, just don't dis Jason Bay again, and I'll place you at the top of my ballot for the Asylum Hall of Fame.  ;-)

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 6:00 PM

@Bay--Thanks for the menu...

As I sit here and eat T-Day Turkey Stove Top and Mashed Taters,,,

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 6:09 PM

@PoH--<your semi-rants>

Pretty much on point all day. I must agree with my fellow Inmates you were on a roll...Did someone _____ in your Wheaties for breakfast?

Baywatch wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 6:10 PM

BK - Yum Yum! Trade you a pie for some of that Stove Top.

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 6:27 PM

Evening Links

Pedro Alvarez

mvn.com/.../top-prospect-profile-pedro-alvarez.html

Pirates hire Marc DelPiano as special assistant to general manager

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../press_release.jsp

Luis Tiant A Veterans Committee Finalist at Baseball Hall of Fame

www.hofmag.com/.../190

SirLochsby wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 6:32 PM

Hmmm... So this IS the Food Network blog!!

PoH just needs a hug...Here ya go, Plenty.

*hug*

Apply as needed.  Pay no attention to that meanie tempter Bay.  Hug your way out of it! *g*

And G-Man beat me to the "you had me at 'FLICK THAT PERSON IN THE FOREH(E)AD.'"

Girl-dogs-of-a-day are going around.  I'd give more detail, but it'd just be venting.

Umm, baseball-related?  Ummm, I have Bobby Bonilla's autograph on a baseball.  Signed it at one of those "training camps" on the ol' Three Rivers turf.  Cool beans.

JL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 6:42 PM

SirL,

"...Umm, baseball-related?  Ummm, I have Bobby Bonilla's autograph on a baseball..." Great diving save --not unlike Troy Polamalu's fingertip pick the game before last!

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 6:53 PM

Another Special Asst. Hire great....

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 6:57 PM

Bk

It is called bureaucracy  :)

Plenty of Hope wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 7:00 PM

Bay - I've been to that restaurant - a few years ago. I was pregnant at the time so it didn't seem quite so embarrassing to out-eat everyone at the long, family style table. Those busloads of senior citizens had nothing on me!

Shoo-fly pie anyone?

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 7:02 PM

POH

and apple pan dowdy  

Baywatch wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 7:04 PM

Plenty - When I lived in the Poconos, I ate at a place called Good and Plenty, but I was thinking it was up near Ephrata. Of course, that was about 20 years ago.

Capn wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 7:08 PM

Hi.  Back for a quick minute before the Pens game.  I just can't agree with all the easy forgiveness of Chacon.  I'm not saying I wouldn't consider bringing him in to ST, but you can't ignore his aggression toward his GM.  It was not a scuffle which has a benign feeling to it.  He personally threatened his GM.  I would have to have a long talk with him first and hear from him how much he regretted it before I'd invite him.

Capn wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 7:10 PM

Good and Plenty!  I've been there.  Isn't there also a Plain and Fancy?  Or did I make that up?

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 7:10 PM

One item no one commented on was the use of the word lede in the opening story of this thread (The Pirates are talking to Turnbow, just like the creatively written lede describes.)

Lede is a term from the days of lead type.  Since lead the metal is spelled the same at lead the first paragraph, the word lede (phonetic)  was coined so the printer would know if instructions were referring to the first sentence or the type.

Plenty of Hope wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 7:14 PM

Capn - I have no idea. We went to a Good and Plenty in Lancaster in 2004. It was awesome.

Bay - I think there are a few of those Good n Plenty restaurants.

JAL - don't be a food tease with the pan dowdy.

Capn again: yell for the Pens for me - I'm stuck at work. And as far as I'm concerned I'll let you do the Chacon interview.

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 7:24 PM

@Capn--<Chacon>

I have to agree with you but also feel that if he is still effective and is willing to come in at a minor league contract and earn his way onto the roster as a reliever/spot starter, he should be given the chance.Just keep him on a very short leash. He performed fairly well while with the PBC. I know we want youth but you have to have a mix of veterans that know how to pitch and not just throw.

SirLochsby wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 7:31 PM

PoH:  <Capn again: yell for the Pens for me - I'm stuck at work.>  Ahh, and thus the girl-doggyness, I presume.  Have you tried listening through the Pens's website?

Capn wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 7:31 PM

Billy, I agree that Chacon performed pretty well here and I was in favor of keeping him at the time.  Then he became just another instance of signing veterans for a year and then showing them the door.  Some of these guys could stay awhile and be helpful.

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 7:48 PM

Capn--Chacon

He is 31. Again if he can perform here 2nd time around I think his pitching skills will be a welcome addition...Just keep NH and FC in another state..lol.

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 7:49 PM

POH

Sorry about the food tease.  Working to get out tomorrow's issue?

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 7:50 PM

Ok what is apple pan dowdy?

DMac wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 7:52 PM

*Phew!*  Thanks for asking that BK...I was afraid to thinking it was a Burgh thing.  ;-)

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 7:53 PM

You can read about all the teams or just stop at #4 (the Pens and then go to #13, the Blackhawks, for the Pirate reference.

www.docsports.com/.../nhl-power-rankings-9-403.html

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 7:56 PM

BK

it is basically a cobbler--apples with cake type top

www.fabulousfoods.com/index.php

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 7:59 PM
BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 8:00 PM

Evening Links Pt 2

Hot Stove Heating Up: Veteran Relievers on the Move

mlb.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

GM's Cautiously Gearing Up For Meetings

mlb.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

pattonbb wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 8:01 PM

Did anyone read the FC chat transcipt?

pattonbb wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 8:03 PM

Here's one of the gems from the FC chat -

storm77: Mr. Coonelly, I am sure you been asked this already, but can you give me some good reasons to get excited about the 2009 ballclub, it seems after some of the July deadline trades this team looks much weaker and 100 loses looks possible.

Coonelly: There are several reasons, storm77, that I think Pirates fans should be excited about the 2009 season. We have a young team that is, I believe, developing some outstanding players in several important areas. Ryan Doumit, Nate McLouth and Paul Maholm all took a large step in their development last year and acted as very clear examples of how a young player can establish himself in our organization. I believe that there are several other young players on our roster who will have similar breakout seasons in 2009.

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 8:14 PM

Pens up 2 - 0

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 8:15 PM

oops wrong thread..

Sorry all

BTW JAL thanks for the apple thingy...

DMac wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 8:18 PM

Thanks, JAL.  Learns something new everyday.  :-)

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 8:18 PM

BK--Glad to be of assistance

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 8:20 PM

Patton

Better to think players will step forward than to think they will not.  No question on the three who took a big step forward.  

Groat2Maz2Strangeglove wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 8:24 PM

Justice Action League,

Thanks for the enlightenment about "lede."  I noticed it when I read the post and thought it was just a misspelled word.

I appreciate learning new things.  Thanks.

Baywatch wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 8:26 PM

JAL - From your first reference, I thought maybe you were thinking about the old big band song, "Shoo Fly Pie and Apple Pan Dowdy" when you added Apple Pan Dowdy after Plenty said Shoo-Fly Pie.

And, let's not forget about that big West Virginia game with Mississippi in about 35 minutes. Maybe we can cover it on the other side, kind of like DMac and SirLox co-anchoring the Pens games!

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 8:33 PM

@Patton--<FC Transcript>

I was going to pull some high lights and post them as part of the Blog Links.

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 8:41 PM

HEAR YE HEAR YE HEAR YE

G-3 (A&B)    ATTENDANCE CHECK

ALL IF YOU WOULD PLEASE HELP ME OUT BY SENDING ME AN EM AND LET ME KNOW WHICH OR BOTH GATHERING'S YOU MAY BE ATTENDING. PLEASE ONLY SEND THE EM IF YOU ARE THINKING OF ATTENDING

I WILL SEE YOU AT BOTH GATHERINGS.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME

SEND TO:    billabraham2004@yahoo.com

JL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 8:42 PM

JAL,

Just got back and caught up (on this thread, at least). I always love your posts, but you outdid yourself with the "lede" primer. Like Groat, I just presumed Dejan made a little goof. Now I know he was flexing his journalistic bonafides. Also, as BK put it, "Thanks for the apple thingy."

Capn,

I understand your qualms about Chacon. I wouldn't argue with your stipulation that he sat down before NH and explained himself. And I also agree with everyone who says he shouldn't be given anything more than a non-roster invite. I'm not going to expend nearly as much energy on boosting Chacon as I do with Doug Mientkiewicz. But I just think the man did his time, and shouldn't be blackballed anymore. Whether or not he has anything to offer our team being another matter.

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 8:46 PM

Groat and JL

It helps to have taught media courses.  Glad you both learned something--education should never end.

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 8:55 PM

HEY BAY!

you crossed the 2K post mark...congrats...

JAL over 3300 posts...

JAL wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 8:55 PM

JL

Thanks for telling me you like my posts

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:02 PM

@JAL--We all enjoy your posts. You always bring great info and insights...

Baywatch wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:06 PM

@BK - "you (Bay) crossed the 2K post mark...congrats...

JAL over 3300 posts..."

Don't we get a gold watch or something? I'll take a week's supply of Big Squeaky Kisses on the Forehead from Plenty.

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:07 PM

Evening Links Pt 3

Ben Sheets Likely to Decline Arbitration from Brew Crew

mlb.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:12 PM

@Bay--What you get

I think earlier you said something about a used athletic supporter...Get that Bronzed and hang it from your rear view mirror...

Baywatch wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:18 PM

OK, Billy, when I ride into the Burgh next summer with Jeromy Burnitz' jock bronzed and dangling from my rear view mirror, everybody's going to bust out laughin'!

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:36 PM

Just let me knowin advance so that I can tell the Chief to make sure he does not pull you over for obstructed view....

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 11:42 PM

Wow! Where did everyone go...My last post is tha ast @ 9:36 PM...

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 11:42 PM

HEAR YE HEAR YE HEAR YE

G-3 (A&B)    ATTENDANCE CHECK

ALL IF YOU WOULD PLEASE HELP ME OUT BY SENDING ME AN EM AND LET ME KNOW WHICH OR BOTH GATHERING'S YOU MAY BE ATTENDING. PLEASE ONLY SEND THE EM IF YOU ARE THINKING OF ATTENDING

I WILL SEE YOU AT BOTH GATHERINGS.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME

SEND TO:    billabraham2004@yahoo.com

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Wed, Dec 3 2008 11:44 PM

HEAR YE! HEAR YE! HEAR YE! HEAR YE!

WHO:

ALL INMATES OF THE ASYLUM

WHAT:

GATHERING III A and III B

WHEN:

2 DATES

III A: SATURDAY 06 DECEMBER 1:00 PM

III B: SUNDAY 07 DECEMBER 1:00 PM

WHERE:

III A: DUNKIN DONUTS, MARKET SQUARE

III B: VINCENTS PIZZA, MANSFIELD AVE. GREENTREE

WHY:

TO WISH YOUR FELLOW INMATES A HAPPY HOLIDAYS.

SEE YOU THERE!

BillyKidd wrote re: Morning links: A thirst for power
on Thu, Dec 4 2008 1:12 AM

Ant's Are Marching

========================================

www.youtube.com/watch