Post-Gazette beat writers Dejan Kovacevic and Chuck Finder blog about the Pittsburgh Baseball Club.
Join the Pirates forum for more conversation.
Register to comment Guide to commenting
Asylum Morning Links
Pirates News & Notes (today’s top Pirate stories from major sports/news sources)
- Pirates Homepage:
pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/index.jsp
- Mailbag: The Need For Speed: pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../article.jsp
- PBC Video Corner: Shelby Ford, Jeff Sues and Others Talk PBC/ AFL
pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../video.jsp
-Live Chat with FC Today @ 2:00 PM
pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../chat.jsp
- Post Gazette: Pirates/MLB Coverage:
www.post-gazette.com/pirates
- Four New Ticket Price Plans Available in 09:
www.post-gazette.com/.../925102-63.stm
MLB News & Notes (today’s top MLB stories from major sports/news sources)
- MLB Agents Ponder Beating Possible Tax Increase:
hosted.ap.org/.../BBO_GM_MEETINGS
- Burnett Opts out of Deal:
hosted.ap.org/.../BBA_BLUE_JAYS_BURNETT
-Padres Narrow Field for Peavy Trade Talks:
hosted.ap.org/.../BBN_PADRES_PEAVY
-Yanks Decline 09 Options on Giambi and Pavano:
hosted.ap.org/.../BBA_YANKEES_GIAMBI_PAVANO
- Canseco Apologizes and get Probation on Drug Charges:
hosted.ap.org/.../BBO_CANSECO_SENTENCED
-MLB Notebook: Brew Crew Ante Up for FA CC
www.post-gazette.com/.../925109-63.stm
- Hot Stove Report: mlb.mlb.com/.../index.jsp
- Free Agent Frenzy mlb.mlb.com/.../index.jsp
GAMEDAY (reports on the day’s games - Pirates and their affiliates)
- AFL Scoreboard: Scottsdale Wins 9-3
www.mlb.com/.../stats.jsp
- Recap: Scottsdale Wins 9-3
- Hawaii Scoreboard: West Oahu Wins 13-5
-Caribbean Scoreboard: Mazatlan Loses 4-1
mlb.mlb.com/.../winterleagues
PIRATE BLOGS
- Bucs Dugout: Ticket Prices Stay Steady, State College Mgr. Fischer New Brew Crew 3B Coach :
http://www.bucsdugout.com/
- WHYAVS: The Road to 17-1994:
http://www.whygavs.com/
- Pittsburgh Lumber Co.: PBC Pitch Audit:
http://mvn.com/mlb/pirates/
- Sandlot Swashbucklers: Romak Pitch BOOM, Paulino, Meek, JVB, Tabata:
mvn.com/sandlotswashbucklers
- Raise the Jolly Roger: New Player Bio: Jose Tabata:
www.raisethejollyroger.com
- Mondesi’s House: Sports and Entertainment W/ Burgh Twist:
www.mondesishouse.blogspot.com
- The Burgh Blues: Meek Back on 40 Man:
theburghblues.mlblogs.com
- The Green Weenie: Dana Point, CA Meetings:
www.oldbucs.blogspot.com
-MLB Blogs: Hot Stove and Other MLB Blogs:
pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/blogs
MLB websites
- Fox Sports: http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb
- Sporting News: www.sportingnews.com/mlb
- ESPN: sports.espn.go.com/.../index
- MLB: http://mlb.com
- MLB: mlb.mlb.com/.../index.jsp
- Sports Illustrated: sportsillustrated.cnn.com/.../mlb
- MLB trade rumors: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/
All-The attempt made was to group links together.
Starting with the
PBC, PG
AP and MLB Notebook, Hot Stove, FA Frenzy.
PBC Affiliates and Players
Blogs
MLB and BB Sites
Please provide any type of feedback and suggestions..
Provide solutions that will make this even better.
Special Thanks to Juan Pizarro for his work on this new format...Send the Hate Mail to Him...LoL (even if it about me)
Just a reminder
FC Chats LIVE @ 2:00 PM
Morning links Part 2
Pittsburgh Sports Fans--mostly on the Steelers but mentions Pirates
nfl.fanhouse.com/.../the-pittsburgh-sports-fan-phenomenen-and-why-were-seemingly-eve
Spikes’ manager named Brewers’ third base coach
www.centredaily.com/.../943862.html
Money flows at GM meetings; economy may hurt free agents
www.usatoday.com/.../2008-11-04-gm-meetings-economy_N.htm
Local Dispatch: Notes from a leaf pile -- you gotta love November! by Steve Blass
www.post-gazette.com/.../925335-294.stm
I am going to try to put something to rest that was posted several times yesterday--that Adam L only hits once the season is over and nothing counts. The prevailing opinion is that the season was over when the Bay and trades were made in late Juy. Here are Adam's stats for July:
BA-.390 HR-7, RBI-18, Runs 16, 2b-7, 3b-2, BB-12, SO-17, OPB-.472, SLG-.805, OPS-1.277
That is a lot of production when the season was alive and the Pirates were within striking distance of .500
JAL -- There you go, fighting opinion with facts... I'd add another impression that I had early during the season; that when Adam did come through it was often a turning point in the game. He had some long dry spells, but then would hit one out a critical juncture in April and May.
PF60 -- if you're out there today, please note this from the PPG's guide to commenting. Link to the full article is at the top of the page to the left of the comments headline. I quote the first paragraph.
<< We invite you to add your comments, and we encourage a thoughtful, open and lively exchange of ideas and information at post-gazette.com. Some content and comments will generate heated discussions, but we expect -- and require -- that the tone of the commentary be civil and respectful. >>
JH
Good addition. Opinion should always be checked to see if that are any facts to support or deny it.
Good morning folks
I wonder what the day will bring......
Hopefully we’re not to be subjected to an endless stream of beating that poor horse again. That was strange. From the very first post to the last....... long, rambling, angry, screaming, overly opinionated, lacking in supporting facts. Frankly, there was nothing new except this cockamamie idea about AdLa having to be the team leader. Only 1st baseman can demonstrate leadership?
Some people enjoy arguing rather than debating. This site has had many heated discussions in the past, but for the most part opinions were supported by stats. We’ve often bickered over the interpretation of those states, but there was common ground to pick over. When someone takes a position that he is obviously conversing with people that are too inexperienced to understand his unsubstantiated viewpoints what are you supposed to do? OK he made his point, we are all too naïve and slow witted to dare challenge his babbling rant.
I hope that he finds a forum that fits his character, but if he decides that this is the place, then please follow the PPG’s posting guidelines as pointed out by JHadar.
Oh, PF60, PLEASE< ENOUGH ALREADY WITH THE CAPITAL LETTERS IN YOUR ARGUMENTS. MY EARS ARE STILL RINGING.
Sorry folks, I promise not to scream again.
Well, when you had to go ahead and call this place the aslyum didn't ya think you were going to attract a few ?
Good Morning, Ugly - How refreshing! I've never been able to truly affectionately greet someone like that before. Ah, the wonders of this blog!
Ugly Ken- Well stated. I agree with JJ that while we all may be loons, we are not pyschotics, and I'l be darned if I allow someone to come in an insult the good people of this blog. Absolute strangers gave me driving directions, ya'll can't be all bad!
Ok, guys your updates have left me confused.
If you guys had such a hard time with the spitefulness of the blog yesterday,why do you bring it up today.
Lets all make a pact that we are going to just FORGET , and if he comes on today we will IGNORE him
Bay, hope this eases that morning glee or pain
www.youtube.com/watch
Baywatch, that comment gets you a tune on the other side.
"good morning ugly"
@All--I am borrowing a line from The Wise One G-Man
Make the Page Down Key your newfavorite key.
I wll.
That is it I am done with yesterday.
ML Blog Update
- Hyzdu Headquarters: Dick Groat
users.rcn.com/.../pirateprofiles.htm
This blog is run by a few.. Thats ok...
I spoke up and my point just did not come across....
Guess I just don't have the patience and faith you all have in Management and our procedures...
Facts to me are simple, we have been at the bottom of the National League standings and often the entire major league standings for 16 years, and 2009 does not look better to me.....
That said, I live and die/bleed Pirates first, love the steelers and root for the Pens.....
So I am in the front row cheering for Pirates and their success.
Too much biz today so not to worry about more ramblings...
III
Morning all,
Sorry I missed Sunday, sounded like a real worthwhile time. After reading the last few days posts, I'm pasting (I hope that's allowed) Theo Epsteins comments from an article on ESPN.com. I think this follows exactly what our management team istrying to accomplish.
Epstein's immediate need is a catcher. But he maintains that his No. 1 priority is to try and build a deep and healthy organization.
"If you convince yourself you need a certain player to win, then you've already lost. It just doesn't work that way," Epstein said. "One player doesn't have that much impact. It's about building organizations, not adding players.
"There's no player you can add to make up for an inherent weakness in your organization, a foundational weakness. You need to build the foundation up to get to the point where you don't need to add that one player. I mean, you can pursue that one player -- and yeah, he'd be a great fit. But if it doesn't work out or if the money gets ridiculous, you can turn to a different player and be in just as good a shape, almost."
@Baywatch -- LOL. Refreshing greeting my behind - if you lived in my house you'd get to say that all the time!
@TheBurghBlues - I completely believe the national temperature yesterday affected every work place, dinner table and blog, including this one. Added to the heat.
@all: Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't part of the fascination of baseball that it's a game? That you can use stats, percentages, theories, strategy and expectations, put it all in a big bag, and you still won't have the formula without the intangible fact that it is a game played by human beings. That's what makes it great! The Pirates beat teams it never should have this season, and lost to teams they never should have! Every night is a new adventure when the team takes the field because IT IS BASEBALL. (sorry uglyken for the caps)
That's what makes it great - we all have different ideas because it is NOT a science - it's a game played by men! That's what gives us so MUCH to talk about!
Footnote to my last post:
When I said "Baseball is a game played by men" I meant to add "It would be a lot closer to a science it if were a game played by women."
Mua-ha-ha-ha!!!!!!
Isn't Sad when:
1. The Pirates don't make any moves and it is highly critized.
2. Make a move and it is highly critized
3. Draft players and it is highly critized
4. Minor league teams, highly critized
5. Minor league ballplayers, highly critized
6. Major league ballplayers, highly critized
7. Trade the wrong players, highly critized
8. Trade for the right players, highly critized
9. Financial situation, don't spend enough money, highly critized
10. Make money, highly critized
11. Spend money on the wrong players, heavily critized
12. Play in a ballpark the community built, heavily critized
13. Concessions too much money, heavily critized
14. Owner, Heavily critized for everything
15. President, Heavily critized for everything
16. GM, heavily critzed for everything
17. Manger, heavily critized for everything
18. Parking, heavily critized
Imagine owning a team, I'll bet you guys can add a few more to this list.
You know what, through all this, Baseball is a grrreat game.
Love our Bucco's
POH,
Thats, why many people say 'Statistics are for losers".
You are right, baseball is not a science, every pitch, every move by a fielder, every move by a hitter happens in a split second. No time for calculations.
Additional Morning Link
What the Pirates Are Up Against
www.jsonline.com/.../33895274.html
He he he...I LOVE that take, PoH!
@all...Stats are all fine and well, but they can be interpreted so many ways...sure makes it fun, doesn't it? ;-)
Thanks for the post JAL.
We need 2 million in attendance a year to be competative, but the fans won't come out until the team is competative.
Does anybody see a problem here?
Billy the Kidd -
Thanks as always for the morning links. It's like DK has a twin!
JHarding -
>>...but we expect -- and require -- that the tone of the commentary be civil and respectful.<<
Spoil sport!
JAL -
>>Opinion should always be checked to see if that are any facts to support or deny it.<<
Excellent point. Unfortunately, for many folks the only fact the bring is "Because I said so." We saw a lot of that yesterday.
JAL,
What the Pirates Are Up Against,
The column is a very interesting scenario.
Thanks
Leadoff & POH
Agreed that the moves happen in a split second but statistics help those moves be made. Players will shift from batter to batter and sometimes from pitch to pitch. That is done through statistics--the statistic that shows batter x never pulls the ball so the 3rd baseman plays well off the bag, the statistic that shows player Y has no power so the outfileld plays more shallow. Once the play starts there is no time to calculate but the statistics are why so many balls are hit right at a fielder.
Statistics are not the be all and end all but they have their place.
@irate--Most welcome--thought is was an interesting column.
jj -
>>Well, when you had to go ahead and call this place the aslyum didn't ya think you were going to attract a few ?<<
Wow! That may be the most insightful thing I have read here. Hap Cap to you, Joe! __/_H_\
indianafanatic -
>>If you guys had such a hard time with the spitefulness of the blog yesterday,why do you bring it up today.<<
It's called being gluttons for punishment.
PoH -
>>I meant to add "It would be a lot closer to a science it if were a game played by women."<<
Is that your way of volunteering to be the troublemaker du jour? :-)
Ken-
<<Frankly, there was nothing new except this cockamamie idea about AdLa having to be the team leader. Only 1st baseman can demonstrate leadership?>>
while I don't agree with this comment either, I don't think we should be putting down the opinions of people on this forum.
Definitely an interesting article. When I read FC's comments about the season ticket prices in the PG the other day, I missed the part about needing 2 million attendance. That's only about 5,000 more average than they drew in 2008. If they can average 19K as things stand, 2 million should be pretty achievable if they can come up with even a modest improvement on the field.
Just added this picture--anyone want to take a stab at the significance of the picture and the identified player?
community.post-gazette.com/.../3a52824u.jpg.aspx
@G-man
The team needs to bring some excitement onto the field. Start well, have some players hitting and pitching well, hustle. Show the fans that things are changing and that fans should be part of that change.
He was the only one in the picture to survive when the USS Maine was blown up in Havana harbor.
Billy Kidd,
"Just a reminder - FC Chats LIVE @ 2:00 PM - pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../chat.jsp"
Do me a favor, tell FC I said "Hi".
;-)
Irate
Very good--yes, sad story. The Goat also survived as it was left in Key West when the Maine left for Cuba. Below is bit about the team.
The team had just won the Navy baseball championship held in Key West, Florida, in December 1897, beating a team from the cruiser USS Marblehead eighteen to three. The Maine's star was a black pitcher named William Lambert (upper right), and engine stoker from Hampton, Virginia, who was described by one shipmate as "a master of speed, curves, and control."
@NuttingHostage
It would be a good chance for you to ask a question.
If you do please ask in a way to get a response and not a defensive one. You may get a better clue as to what will or not be depending on your question.
I do beleive you have some valid points, just ask it a way that it could be answered. We will all get to see the response and be able to opinionate on it with you and your take on it.
@Ivannawinalot
My use of the adjective cockamamie was intended to be descriptive of the idea rather than insulting the presenter of the idea. Opinions are welcome and encouraged, even without any supporting evidence. However, when that assertion was challenged, the counter argument was basically changed to you are all to ignorant to understand what I’m saying; when presented by the knowledge and experience of the people that he was ranting at he left without ever presenting any evidence that his leadership idea had any validity.
If PFS60 feels insulted by my use of cockamamie, then I would go back and change that line to:
“Frankly, there was nothing new except this unsubstantiated idea about AdLa having to be the team leader.”
That’s the best that I could though. Might sound less insulting, but the point is the same.
Madturk,
I will be driving back to Pittsburgh from Toronto and unable to participate, otherwise I would.
Okay maybe next time. do drive safely!
<<My use of the adjective cockamamie was intended to be descriptive of the idea rather than insulting the presenter of the idea.>>
whatever.
@Hostage
Have a safe trip from the great north.
@JAL--Picture.
Is it the African American in the Pic?
NuttingHostage - have a safe trip. It's a beautiful time of year to drive. Ours is a beautiful country.
Godspeed.
PoH--HAHAHAHA! Awesome!
@BK
Yes, Lambert is the African American in the picture but he did not survive the explosion. J.H. Bloomer was the player who survived.
NuHos -
Have a safe trip. I am not much of a fan of driving, but that drive between Pittsburgh and Toronto has always been one of my favorites. Well, except for the road construction on I-90 near Erie that I always used to run into. Last time (2 years ago), I think it was finally finished. Anyway, I digress. Safe travels.
Irate Fan:
Egg or chicken; what came first?
____________________________
Leadoff:
In my opinion, the list you developed is probably a direct result of (fill in the blank) losing seasons. The number of losing seasons is fact, not necessarily a stat!
______________________________
Group:
I did not read yesterdays treads. I guess I am glad I haven't. I hope I don't come out as too negative on my posts.
You know, I am a Pirates fan, and a baseball fan. I watch games hoping the Pirates will win, but can see when a team stinks or not. I am one of those fans that give credit to the other team when it plays better than mine. I can also see when certain administrators behave like certain politicians. You know, say one thing, do another...
photo quiz 2
When and where
community.post-gazette.com/.../fans.jpg.aspx
Montana
Negative is fine--there is plenty to be negative about. It is the tone toward others that bothers some of us. There a big difference between posting "The trade was bad" and posting "the trade was bad and you people are too dumb to realize it".
Sometime you lose to a better team and sometimes you perform poorly. When you perform poorly you should be criticized.
seems to be some lingering bitterness from yesterday. How about a change of subject to:
Can anyone come up with an all-star team from the PBC's last 16 years teams? without getting too detailed as to the criteria I used to pick 'em, here's my attempt:
LF: Bay
CF: McLouth
RF: Giles
1B: Merced
2B: Carlos Garcia
SS: Wilson (not counting Jay Bell's years during the playoffs)
3B: Jeff King
C: Kendall
SP : Neagle, Cordova, Ritchie, Wells, Benson
RP: Mike Williams
comments/suggestions?
Thanks, JAL. That's a fair statement.
I actually enjoyed having a short discussion with you the other day. As you might be able to tell, I read very often, but only interact if/when I see discussions in which I feel I can add something "worthy."
P.S. - On a curious note, my wife thinks I am a have some kind of baseball-related "premonition powers" when we watch games together. I can usually tell when the Pirates will throw the game away, either by player or manager's mistakes just before they happen. I don't have the same kind of "powers" when they are going to do something good [smile].
Wow, just finally finished getting through yesterday's post. Just to add my two cents (then that's it, don't want to rehash everything), the biggest thing that got me was the focus on wanting to see LaRoche as a leader, on the field and in the clubhouse. Why? The kid has mental lapses every year and quite frankly, is not the kind to be leading the team. I don't think it's in his personality and leadership is not something you can force. Look at Jason Kendall. Everyone wanted him to "step up" and be a "leader" and he didn't WANT to be. It wasn't his style. So what happened? Everyone resented him and said he was cranky. Well I'm cranky too when people expect me to be someone I'm not. The only person who can fix Adam is ADAM. Not the management or anyone else. The team shrink or A shrink is about the only person who could POSSIBLY help him. And I certainly have never heard of anyone coming down on AdLa, I think we the fans come down on him most, maybe next to AdLa himself. But management continually gives him opportunity to try and try again, so I don't see how anyone thinks it's an issue of not being nurtured to be a leader. Leaders emerge, and I think AdLa is plenty happy being a caterpillar and has no desire to be a butterfly.
OK, that's my rant. Happy Day, all!
@P-13<<Leaders emerge, and I think AdLa is plenty happy being a caterpillar and has no desire to be a butterfly.>>
I like that analogy.
@Pirata13
Good job!
All-I am jumping ship for a bit to visit with my new BFF FC...Lol.
Chat starts in 10 minutes.
I enjoyed it too. Your power only works on losses--maybe the "good" will develop more in the future :)
@pirata--That is good analogy. Well done.
Hi Gang. Sorta late jumping in here. But I want to revisit the attendance issue JAL brought to the discussion. I hadn't realized that Milwaukee got 3.2 million through their gates, this year. That's fantastic! To answer Montana's question: the ball club has been laying eggs for 16 years. So let's try live chickens for a change. Not to toot my own horn, but I asked more than once, "What happened to Houston's attendance after they ignored the naysayers, went out and got Randy Wolf, and actually played great baseball the rest of the way out? Yesterday, Irate posted a link about Manny and Boras which also happened to mention that the Dodgers drew 3.7 million last year. The Dodgers always clear 3 million. But even for them, 3.7 million is high. I think the lesson to be learned here is that good things happen to attendance, --ergo, revenues-- when a good product is put on the field.
Manny Ramirez most certainly paid for himself (whatever monstrosity of a yearly salary he received) just by spiking attendance. But the real shocker for me was that Milwaukee leaped into Dodger levels of attendance with the good team they had this year.
Folks: if we spend it, they will come. Soon, the Pirates marketing department will unveil it's 2009 team slogan for us.
I say that we fans beat them to the punch and, as fans, give THEM a slogan: "SPEND IT."
@NH--Just for you..I submitted this Q...It was a bit long so i am not sure if it will be answered.
Frank of course there are no guarantees and it is hard at this point in a rebuilding process but we are curious to know, as you look at your strategic plan for the Pirates what point over the next several years are you and Neal projecting a turnaround to a winning club.
Clearly this is not the same leadership team, but your predecessors told us repeatedly they had a talented core in place and believed Pirate fans could expect a winning in the 2008 through 2010 time frame.
What is the projection from your team?
@ juan pizarro - interesting idea and not an easy team to construct. I agree with most of your choices but would also like to submit the following for consideration:
Even though he didn't last as long as we had hoped, and is more remembered for his drop in production after signing the 4-yr $24 mln contract, I would have to nominate Kevin Young as the 1B based on his 1997-1999 performance. His production in those years (twice over 100 RBI's) was more "first-basemen-like" than Merced's.
Or, one can put Jeff King at 1B since he enjoyed his best year with the team mostly playing that position (30 HR, 111 RBI), and then slot Aramis Ramirez at 3B, in recognition of the year when he hit 34 HR and drove in 112 RBI.
Not a lot to pick from at 2B, maybe Freddie Sanchez based on his '07 performance, which was much better than any year Garcia had in terms of hitting?
If we are going to include Wells as a SP, then I think we also have to include Oliver Perez in recognition of his bang-up '04 performance (239 K's in 196 IP, 2.98 ERA), or at least make a spot for him as a LHP.
Finally, viewed holistically, one could argue that Jason Schmidt's performance during tenure in PGH was on par with Benson's (equally disappointing? :-)).
Anyway great post/idea on your part to divert attention away from the unnecessary vitriol which has recently populated the blog.
Pirata - I'm with you on some people lead, and want to, and some people don't. I don't need Adam to be a leader. I need Adam to be a hitter in the first half of the season.
JAL: This is me formally telling you stats are very important and have their place in the game and for the fans. No disrespect to you the stat guy AT ALL. But the human aspect - the fact that statistically Pujols should ring Snell like a bell but Snell strikes the guy out a few times? That's where I'm in love with the game.
SWOOONN
He mentioned Shelby!!!!!
Joy joy joy
Oh happy days
BK, by winning club do you mean a playoff team or a .500 team? he won't give you a year anyways. and i don't know when i've heard DL give a timeframe like that.
@Ivanna--<<by winning club do you mean a playoff team or a .500 team? >>
Just copying and pasting for NH. Sibnce it is long FC may not answer. Most Q" are 1 sentence
@Ivanna--Personally 500 is not good enough. Playoff this quickly is a stretch.
Somewhere in between with a winning record will work for me in 09.
POH
THat is where use of stats go wrong--there is much more than Pujols is hitting .350 and Snell has a ERA of 5.07--just looking at that would say Pujols should hit him. But look deeper into stats--does Pujols always swing at the first pitch, does he have trouble with a type of pitch or a particular location. You put together a pitching plan for him based on stats and then if you execute the plan well you can get him out. All hitters make more outs than hits so there ays to get anyone out.
Juan: I'll bite. I would put Reggie Sanders in place of Nate, unless rent-a- players don't count. My memory about Carlos Garcia is that he never got to be as good as he was cracked up to be (but I have no strong recollection) so I would insert Freddy instead. If Benson and Wells are on the list, that helps explain 16 losing seasons. :) I would replace one of them with Schmidt. To digress a little, I believe Benson was a consensus #1 pick in the draft.
Pirata--I agree with your rant
thanks Chicken. and some good points/selections.
On my list I tried to avoid 1-season highs, but that may not be legitimate (since i had Nate in CF, that contradicts my own criteria!). But since it's my own list I guess I can make things up a sI go along.
and I agree on Schmidt over Benson (forgot about him, but I now seem to remember the reason he was traded was he was seen only as a #3 or #4 starter, whereas Benson was seen as a #1). Another "oops" from the past...............
JL:
I agree with your answer. It's so simple and logic..., and it has been like that for so long. They just don't want to spend the money necessary to field a good team!
@Arriba--Welcome Back...How is the back swing? More importantly, how's dad?
I am back--Did not learn a whole lot more than we already knew.
Sorry NH I tried. Even tried to see if Pavano and or Clements might be non-roster invitees.
Arriba - I thought about Sanders, but remember him as a corner outfielder rather than a CF, so left him off. And it's funny about your comment on the pitchers affect on 16 yrs of losing - as I was putting this together I wondered if , even with this all-star team, would they still make the playoffs? I was not convinced (unless you took everyone's best season)
juan
If uoe use rent-a-players, then I would put Lofton in center, if not then Nate is my guy.
@jaun <<as I was putting this together I wondered if , even with this all-star team, would they still make the playoffs? I was not convinced (unless you took everyone's best season)>>
I just came to that same conclusion. We would have to catch lightning in a bottle and have each players best year to have a chance.
MLB has published their official Elias player rankings, used to determine Type A/B free agents for the year. Interesting reading (and yes, some Bucs made an A rating, incl Doumit and Freddy)
the link (via the NY Post): www.nypost.com/.../nl_player_rankings_136999.htm
Thanks, BK. Dad's great. Sorry to have missed the FC gathering; sounds like it was great and it would have been nice to have met in person more members of the Asylum. I still haven't been through all the posts about and from the gathering, but I did get thru yesterday's :-O Great job on the ML's for you and Juan
Re: yesterday---sounds like a new purveyor of negative objectivity
Pirate in Montana,
Thanks. We've seen how badly the other way works for 16 years. Time to try the Brewers' way. (Incredible. In a smaller market than ours, and with two neighboring Chicago teams to compete with, they drew over 3 mil. fans. Blows my mind.)
I know it's a sin to say it, but I'm going to:
From a fan perspective, I don't mind elbow room at the ballpark. I'd take a weeknight or weekday game over Lynrd Skynrd night any time. ANY time.
Off to the confessional...
@Arriba-<Re: yesterday---sounds like a new purveyor of negative objectivity>
Hmmm Where did I read that one before ;-)
I'd have to say I agree just a little with PoH...though the seats at PNC aren't too bad, it's nice to have an empty seat or two in that row.
Sorry...
@JL
On the spending bit.
I would NOT like to see spending on the bad boys and quiters of the league nor to spend just to spend. I may be in the minority on that though. I would like to see spending on the right players that would fit this club now and for the long term though. The amount for that is determined by who the player is and what they bring with them (baggage). I do not have a set limit on player payroll for that is determined by each players ability and worth to the team.
Thoughts?
All--2 Links from the Raise the Jolly Roger Blog where the inmates get honorable mentions...
Thanks, B
www.raisethejollyroger.com/.../news-and-notes-nov-2.html
www.raisethejollyroger.com/.../news-and-notes-oct-28.html
mad - I agree with you on spending. When you spend just to spend you end up with Derek Bell, Joe Randa (the second time), Jeromy Burnitz, etc.
When you spend wisely you end up with guys like Doug.
Plenty, DMac --
I hear ya, they can sell all the seats in the place except the one next to me as long as I'm on the aisle. Goes for all stadiums, theaters, concert halls, and wherever else people have to watch where they put their knees and elbows.
@Billy
Nice referances from Raise the Jolly Roger Blog.
Special thanks back at em
The Pittsburgh Pirates Need A Byron Leftwich
bleacherreport.com/.../77702-the-pittsburgh-pirates-need-a-byron-leftwich
You have to go through the pages at the bottom of each page
another one from the same site
What if Manny Ramirez Signed with the Pittsburgh Pirates?
bleacherreport.com/.../77593-what-if-manny-ramirez-signed-with-the-pittsburgh-pirates
@BK--Great that the asylum got mentioned
@JAL
Any guesses on picture2 yet? I would guess Forbes Field (I think that is the roof of the Carnegie Museum in the background). Maybe 1925 after the WS win?
Diehard -- << When you spend just to spend you end up with Derek Bell, Joe Randa (the second time), Jeromy Burnitz, etc.
>>
Warning (opinion unsubsantiated by fact follows) I think that although they had a few losing seasons under their belts, the Bucs went from having a downturn to catastrophe when they made the deal with Pat Meares -- they paid him way more than he was asking and more than market value for what seemed to be a statement that, hey, we can play with the big boys, too.
Up until the Meares debacle McClatchy seemed willing to spend money on the payroll, the minor leagues were well stocked, and it seemed like talent was on its way.
When that deal went south McClatchy tightened the purse strings, the for real salary dumps began, Bonifay's days were numbered, and . . . well, we know the rest.
On Jose Canseco's bizarre court case -- From the MLB Notebook this morning -- the guy needs to see a doctor, make that two doctors.
JHadar - Man, I had managed to block that one from my memory. Now I have to start therapy all over. ;-)
Good call.
PG in NH--yours is the first guess but unfortunately not totally correct. You do have the city correct--it is Pittsburgh and it is baseball related and it is outside Forbes Field. The time is earlier than 1925 and it not after a game but before one.
JH--The Pat Meares signing a total disaster.
and John Perrotto at the BCT has heard good things about both PA and Brandon Moss. No reason not to believe!
the link:www.timesonline.com/.../doc490d26a0d7caa362846006.txt
Guys...have a little bit of Pirates BB news.
Nate wins Gold Glove...
mlb.mlb.com/.../article.jsp
EXTRA! EXTRA! READ ALL ABOUT IT!
Nate get his 1st Gold Glove
pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../article.jsp
CONGRATS NATE!
@Juan--Thanks--that was great read
JAL
My guess is that it is either the raising of the Forbes Field flag poll or of the foul ball poll when the stadium was being built.
@Thunder--You stole mine...LOL
Fantastic
Whay to go Nate!!!
Pittsburgh is still on the map.
pirata,, that sounds like the plan for another one of your skin blemishes
Congrats Nate! Always cool when any Pirate gets some real recognition.
Good article Juan - good things to hear about our guys.
Sorry about the scoop...BK...had to steal the thunder somehow. Just happened to be in my feed reader when the MLB feed updated with the story on the Gold Gloves. Guess I even scooped the PG by a minute.
With the GG's being voted on by coaches and managers...that should put some stock in Nate's ability as an outfielder. I've seen some fielding stats that say he's overrated...but those stats don't take into effect the rockets the Pirates staff has allowed to be launched...or the fact that his neighbors in the outfield haven't been blessed with a great deal of speed (except Mr. Excitement for a month).
Congrats Nate!
And DMac & PoH--yeah I agree with not minding a little elbow room. I'm tellin' you, that's why Dad & I love picking all our games on weeknights & weekdays. Nothing better on a summer day than being at the ballpark at 12:35pm on a Wednesday drinking a beer. While everyone else is doing your work....
@Ken--not quite though now the year is right--it was the year Forbes opened. The fans are trying see the game. You and PG in NH did a good job figuring it out--the roof of the Carnegie Museum gives the site and the clothing sets the date-- so here is the rest:
It is October 1909 and the fans are trying watch the Pirates play the Tigers in the World Series. And we think this si an asylum :)
Congrats Nate -- and as much as I admire Bill James, so much for ZR and defensive "stats"...
WOO HOO! Yes, Burgh Blues! Nate is GREAT! And PHOOEY on all those who say he's not up to snuff. Sorry gang, but I think the NL managers and coaches know a bit more about how good of a centerfielder Nate has become, than his detractors on this forum.
As the shirt says "McAWESOME."
God bless him he deserves it. Hard work and attention to his trade, baby.
"Hard work and attention to his trade, baby."
Absolutely!!
Does anybody remember that the predictions from the rest of the clubhouse was that Nate was the most likely to have a break out year? Paulino voted that honer to himself.
Well-deserved congratulations to Nate!!! BRAVO, NATE.
The Jake guy (always angry) at Bucco Blog writes about Nate as if he is the worst CF in the history of the game. I wonder how he will explain this one.
I won't know what he will say because I don't read the Bucco Blog anymore.
Uglyken -YES!
Jack Wilson said "Nate McLouth. Write it down."
I ment to say that the predictions comming out of ST was that Nate was going to have a break out year. Everyone on the team knew he was a gem.
Pirata--
I agree 100%, showing up on a Wednesday or Thursday afternoon is terrific, I'll have nacho's and 1 beer and be in paradise.
I went to the Yankee series and I will admit the atmosphere was definately different than a regular night game, but when the rains came I felt like a sardine in a can.
"Paulino voted that honer to himself."
I can only hope that Ronny was either: A) Jesting, or B) was trying to make a statement to the team that he was going put '07's problems into the past.
How did we know which players voted for whom? Again, did Paulino announce his vote because of either A or B?
@ JL
I think I read about it on lthe post-gazette web site just prior to the start of the regular season, and I think that Paulino picked himself for the second reason you stated.
Uglyken--
A few years ago I was sitting in the bleachers at a Pirate Spring training game, and I asked someone sitting beside me who's that guy in the outfield that I was looking at, he told me that's McClouth, I said he is good looking ballplayer, the man next to me said, too bad, we have Duffy, McClouth will never play in Pittsburgh unless he is a right fielder, I said he looks better than Duffy to me, he knows what he is doing. I said I lke him, then when Duffy and McClouth were here together I found out that Tracy thought he was a good ballplayer, but a 4th outfielder, I said who's better than McClouth, that's when I started not liking Tracy. Then rumors of McClouth being traded over the winter because projections were for him to be a 4th outfielder was what the new mangement team was left with, almost drove me crazy, they can't be that stupid, and then the talk of he had to win a job in Spring Training guarateed me they were nuts. When are people going to get it, you don't have to be big, you don't have to be the fastest guy, you can still be very good.
Look at Victorino in Philly, I don't think they make it to the series without him, he's a little guy.
Just to followup on McClouth, McClouth shows us how poorly scouts, managers and front office people can be when it comes to judging talent, now wonder were in the position were in.
leadoff
The last straw for me with Tracy, was when Nate had that awesome August in 2007, and Tracy rewarded him by making him ride the bench for the remainder of the season just to give Nyjer a look. I already wanted him fired, but that just about made me go PFS60 (or postal) if ya know what I mean.
Leadoff,
Excellent point about Nate, and his stature. Now let's not trade him!! :o)
Ugly,
If "B" were Ronny's intentions, I forgive him because he had the right idea. But he still needs to learn that actions speak even louder than words.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but reports from Sunday's pow-wow with FC seemed to indicate that he didn't have such high regard for Nate's D either --or was that Bay's D? Those who were there, just what did FC have to say about Nate's D? I know everybody wants to move Nate to left, in order to make room for Cutch. When Alex Rodriguez came to the Yankees, the Yankees didn't uproot Derek Jeter. They let him stay at short and had A-Rod move to 3rd. The Pirates better be D_MN sure they know what they're doing to displace the most recent Gold Glove winning center fielder in the league. Or does FC and NH know more than the managers and coaches who played against Nate and all the other center fielders in the NL all season long?
leadoff/ugly- I think we should give some credit to this mgmt team for realizing what they had in Nate (and Doumit), ie good, young ballplayers who just needed to play every day to show their worth. Sometimes it's not trades or FA signings that makes a good team, but knowing what you have in-hand and how to make best use of it.
@JHadar wrote re: Baseball talk, 11-5-08
on Nov 5, 2008 4:02 PM
Or enter the asylum full time!
Way to go Nate!
@uglyken - @JL - others
Yes the PG listed the players and who they thought would have a break out year. Can't rememebr the date on it though.
I wonder if Nate had a GG bonus clause in his contract?
I believe the setiment was that he is good in center but does not grade out there as well as a true center fielder should. He is better suited to a corner spot.
Although I like him in center, I think I agree with that assesstment. That's not a knock on Nate at all. He takes good routes to the ball and has very good instints for where it may be hit (Good Jump).
It is hard to watch him play and see what would suggest a change of spots for him. It's the damm stats agin that what it is.... :-)
Juan--
Although I like this managing team a lot, when It comes to Nate, I don't know if they are as sold on him as we are, remember judging talent is not reserved for people in the organization only, I know years ago, you might see a terrific young player and let the Pirates know that guy existed and they would send a scout to look at him. McCuthen has played left field in Indy at times, I don't believe he is a better outfielder than Nate. Tabata looks to me like he is a little better than McCuthen, have to see more of both of them though. I'll wait till st for that.
I go back a little with this, but Bill Virdon was the best defensive center fielder I ever saw and I saw Willy Mays in his prime. I don't think Bill was faster than Nate, he did play the wall better though, that outfield had Clemente in right and Skinner in left I believe if memory serves me correct. Skinner was faster than he looked, but by no means a blazer, other than Clemente that outfield wasn't real fast and Forbes was real big.
Mad---
Your right, it's them D@# stats, maby we just don't have people in baseball anymore that can watch a guy play and say that guy can play, instead they say, wait a minute lets check the stats, oh he can't play.
@Jl--Mad has it --FC said he a better for left. FC also said that bay's defense went down after the trade.
No he was positive towards Nate's D, but he did say that Bay had a poor arm. Billy followed up by stating "no arm" and FT answered "yes".
About moving Nate to left, I think that it depends on just how good McCutchen really is. FC say’s that he is the real deal. Considering the size of our left field, you almost need two center fielders for half the season anyway. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see. Sometimes players can’t deliver at the major league level. PBC also thought that Chad Hermanson could “walk on water”.
JL
FC specifically said that they were lobbying hard for Nate to get a gold glove.
Well if Nate isn't suited for centerfield, then Lord have mercy on all the other NL teams and all their centerfielder's who came in behind Nate in the Gold Glove voting. Because the logical conclusion would then be that nobody has a genuine centerfielder. Or, that all those NL managers and coaches who cast their vote saying that Nate was the best... are simply wrong.
And don't forget, everyone, that this was only Nate's first year on the job! Another year or two patrolling the field, and he's only gonna get better. Maybe if we don't fix what ain't broke, Nate will own the GG for several years to come. Radical thought.
I asked FC about Nate. He said that the team that drafted him thought highly of him. Nate was set to go to college but the Pirates thought enough of him to offer a good contract that would keep him from going to college to play baseball. He was drafted in 2000. Later management team did not recognize his talent then this year the new team saw what hey had. So the scouts in 2000 did their job.
My impression is they they do think highly of him. In FC's chat today he wrote "Nate had a solid season, both at the plate and in the field."
Ugly--
They were wrong when they said Nate was a 4th outfielder, and they proved they thought he was a 4th outfielder by making him complete for the centerfield position in st, Bay and Nady did not have to complete for a job, defensively Nate was better than Bay or Nady. And as you stated in an earlier post, they gave him August and he tore up the league and they quickly put him on the bench and to his credit, no complaining.
leadoff -- and can you imagine playing in Forbes Field after they lowered the pitcher's mound and expanded the league to 16 teams (196 pitchers), lots of 12-9 games.
And you know, that for the beauty of a park that PNC is, there's a part of me that wishes that they had rebuilt an exact replica of Forbes, except with softer seats and no I-Beams in the field of vision.
Virdon was the type of fielder who made the job look so easy that he wasn't given the credit he would have been if he'd made lots of diving catches. Maybe one of the best managers we ever had, too -- but without the talent to bring it off.
JL--
Well said!!
JAL--
I do think this management group thinks highly of him, but they think that way about Andy LaRoach to, they thought highly of Bay and we know what happened there and by the way, I think Andy is a lot better than he showed this year. I like him.
Leadoff
I think that the current administration did recognize the Nate’s potential; it was the previous management that was holding him down.
Like I said, I completely had it with Tracy after benching Nate for tearing the cover off the ball, but maybe he was just following orders.
JL -- Well said, indeed.
I love it that right after the stat geeks (statheads on usenet, r.s.bb -- don't go there, they've poisoned the landscape) declare him the worst cf in baseball, or was it the NL not that it matters, that the people who actually know what they're talking about better than almost anyone in the world, choose him as the best.
As far as whether he should stay there, just make sure that whoever pushes him into left is actually a better centerfielder. That's how you get better.
Can't wait for spring training.
I said no arm
JH--
You said a mouthful there, the quail made it look so easy, maby that's what impressed me so much about Nate when I first saw him, he made it look easy, like the quail, he knew where to position himself, I know Varsho positions him now, think sometimes I would like to see some old school and let the good ones position themselves. I guarantee you nobody in this dugout would tell Roberto how to postion himself, Blass tried when he was pitching, he will tell you, it worked until Blass turned back around.
Modern Baseball-
Statistics are the buzz, most of them are not necessary if you know how to play your position, know the hitters and know your pitcher.
I hate when the dugout moves a guy because of what he sees on a spray chart. Example, Puhols bats, if by now Nate does not know where to go in the outfield after seeing Puhols as much as he has, he should not be out there.
The constant barrage of stats is turning players into robots, you can watch batting practice, talk to your starting pitcher, watch some video before the game and not use any stats.
Managers manage so much by them that they don't manage, if it isn't in the book what will I do, everything from the odds on something working to I don't know what all.
Many people think highly of Andy L. Only time will tell if they are right. If you look as minor league stats there every reason to think he is much better than he looked.
On Bay--ever wonder if the Sox said they would take either Bay or McLouth? Probably not.
JJ <<I said no arm>>
Oppose….. sorry about that JJ, at least I got the right table ;-)
"...but McLouth getting the nod is the single worst selection that NL managers and coaches have made in at least a decade. The 27-year-old is probably an above average corner outfielder, but he was perhaps the game's worst full-time center fielder last season." - Rotoworld.com
Are they crazy? The guy made one error all season, made numerous highlight-reel catches, covered an enormous amount of ground, AND his arm (like in the ASG) was better than expected. I'm extremely disappointed in rotoworld, as usually they have some insightful thoughts. Then again, they are mostly there for just reporting the news and rumors.
I don't think Nate was offered, Boston has a young centerfielder that they like, they were trying to replace Manny.
" If you look as minor league stats there every reason to think he is much better than he looked. "
Good point (if you're saying what I think you're saying).
And JHadar, I'm in complete concurrence with you as far as "just make sure that whoever pushes him into left is actually a better centerfielder", with a heavy emphasis on the "make sure" part. The people within the organization can have all their projections --indeed, it's their job to make them. But they better not do any more ANOINTING. It's become my mantra that nobody should get anything without *earning* it. And now in Nate's case, I'd leave him alone unless McCutcheon absolutely blows everyone's mind.
TBB--
We do have a couple guys on this blog, that would agree with Rotoworld .com, I am sure.
Thanks, Burgh Blues. Yes, they're crazy. Roto World has quite a bit of egg on their face today.
That is what I was trying to say. I am not typist, I just play one on the blog :)
Burgh Blues
maybe Roto World was taken over by Martians :)
@TBB
It makes one wonder if the were deliberately trying to influence the outcome of the awards.
JL -- << I am not typist >>
And, you are not a "not" typist at times.
JAL and JHadar,
(Big belly laugh here, causing my son to ask, "What?... WHAT?") You two need to take your act on the road. You'll sell out everywhere.
@leadoff:
This summer I had a private (meaning face to face, there were hundreds of people in the room) convo about Nate's competition for center in ST. The person I was talking to -- who resided in the dugout all year but was not on the roster, wink wink -- said the competition was perceived for Nate and Doumit, and it made them work, but in reality, they had the job and they had the opportunity to LOSE it through poor performance in ST or lack of want-to.
Later Lanny Fratere said the same thing on TV about Nate and Doumit.
I'm not saying the media wasn't right about the competition I followed all day, every day of ST, I'm just saying that you can have two job applicants during a hiring process and with one you're thinking "unless this guy is an ax murderer or his drug test flares, I'm hiring him."
But they better not do any more ANOINTING.
JL -- We'll make 'em spend the winter in Frost if they do...
I know I am getting ahead of myself, but THE WORLD BASEBALL CLASSIC is approaching. I am very excited. And Again, trying not to sound repetitive, but let me know what you think of my blog. You are the guys I need to be getting info back from. But, WBC, WO HOO. My friend Nick and I are huge fans, we watched every game in the series last time (including South Africa at 2:00 in the morning).
@JL, JAL and JHadar,
The funny thing is that I understand the typos almost as well as if it was perfect. ;-)
Yeah, Japan won the whole shebang last time. But then our Olympic team of college and minor league players twice beat essentially Japan's same All-Star team (though Matsuzaka, etc., did stay in the U.S.). So there, Japan!
The problem with these international competitions is that the U.S. players don't feel compelled to go all out. So a Cuba or a Japan can sneak up on us. Same with basketball until this past summer.
You mean that am not a not typist not that I care whether I am or am not a not typist as long as I am not banned from typing until such time as I can type not when needed and not type not when not needed.
Ken
Some have a gift for discerning the meaning of the message even though the messenger may have been unclear :)
JHadar,
"We'll make 'em spend the winter in Frost if they do..."
I LIKE IT! That can become a refrain for us. When management starts bungling something, or otherwise makes Franquelis Osoria our closer, we can just declare, "JR! You're off to Frost!!" Or, just one word can convey the entire message: i.e., DD doesn't get re-signed,
at FC's next chat, everybody in unison make one word submissions ("Frost!"... BK can hand deliver the one-way Greyhound ticket.)
JH and Ugly,
In case you haven't noticed, JAL is at it on the other thread, too.
Burgh blues
I like your blog. Many blogs are just there so the person can give their opinions on whatever. Your blog contains a lot of fact and up to date info. Today you had pictures of all the NL GG winners--did not see that in MLB story but you had it all there. That was good work that added to the story.
I am at it--what is it? Clara Bow was the It Girl but I don't think I am at Clara. Maybe it is wits and I am at my wits end though I would rather be at the end of the rainbow where the pot of gold is.
Thanks JAL, I appreciate greatly
*that
@JL--<<BK can hand deliver the one-way Greyhound ticket.>
Sure make me out to be the bad guy.. :)
Burgh Blues (Can we call you "BB"?),
Be careful palling around with JAL. You'll start leaving out words like "that" in your posts. ;)
I, too, appreciate your work at your blog, by the way. Keep it up!
Pirata13 -
Good commentary on Adam and leadership. I agree that one can't be something that's not inherently there. I think leadership can be, well not taught but, brought out in a person thorugh example or exposing them to the right things but only if the seed is already inside that person. Your example of Kendall was spot on. That post of yours may be the best you have ever written here. Would you like to be our leader? You would make a good butterfly :)
BK,
Well it's just that you two are buddies now. And who better to hand FC his one-way ticket to Frost, then his bestest buddy?
I really doubt leaving out words is a communicable disease :)
I'm more of a fan of TBB, since once I get my actual .com running in spring it is an easy nick name, but BB is cool.
I know I don't usually bestow Hap Caps to players, but I think Nate's Gold Glove award deserves one. And to think he pulled that off with no leadership from the first baseman.
__/_H_\
I checked with the CDC in Atlanta; you're right. BB did that on his own.
Pirata,
The more I think about it, G-Man is right. You hit all the right notes with leadership riff. Very well done.
I'm thinking BK and FC wouldn't be such BFF's if there was a bus ticket to Frost involved, but that's just me. ;-)
@G-Man--<And to think he pulled that off with no leadership from the first baseman>
Do you still poke bee hives with sharp sticks or maybe sleeping bears?
:)
Still talking about leadership at first I see--Wonder how many teams have first baseman who is a team leader? Any come to mind? Pujols is a great player but is he a team leader?
BK- I do not think Nate had a clause in his contract, most 2-3 3rd year players do not until arbitration eligble.
That being said I do see PBC providing some compensation for the award.
If the Dodgers eat his Salary, do you invite Andrew Jones to spring training? Yes I know we hate him for what he did with the Braves to us.
Had to go away for an hour and the inmates took over the asylum.
JL -- That'll Frost 'em!
JAL << You mean that am not a not typist not that I care whether I am or am not a not typist as long as I am not banned from typing until such time as I can type not when needed and not type not when not needed. >>
Now type that fast five times.
@JAL-<Any come to mind?>
Keith Hernandez
Steve Garvey
Pops
Raphie Palmeiro (Rangers)
Cecil Fielder
Eddie Murray
Mark McGuire (Clean)
Don Mattingly
Lou Gehrig
Will Clark gets honorable mention
The inmates are the asylum :)
Certainly from the past, I was wondering about the current group. Leadership has come from most positions over time.
@WSB-<do you invite Andrew Jones to spring training? >
I wouldn't. Didn't he injure his knee?