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Some musings on Jason Bay.
He homered in his very first major league game, while with San Diego. After he arrived in Pittsburgh via the Brian Giles trade, I "believe" it was in his second game ever with us, that he had that tremendous 8 RBI performance against the Cubs. In his debut with the Red Sox, he scored both Sox runs in their 2-1 victory over the A's. That second run coming in the bottom of the 12th, after he had tripled.
Now, in his first ever post-season games, he has led the Red Sox to a 2-0 series lead against the home-team, MLB best-record LA Angels. Two key home runs, 5 RBI, and a .556 batting average.
Jason Bay is simply a player who rises above when circumstances call for it. From the above performances, to his extra-inning heroics to beat the Astros or Cubs over the years,
Jason has had that extra "X-factor" that statistics just don't reflect. He reminds me of another player, this one, maybe the greatest clutch player of our generation --Reggie Jackson. Nobody argues how clutch Reggie was. It might be a little early to put Jason into his category. But it might be instructive to note that Jackson's career batting average was only .262. He hit 563 career home runs, but that was over 21 seasons, for an average of 26.8 per season. Jason is averaging 24.8 HR per season. He'll get more, now that he's on a good team. His career average is .282, and I expect that will rise too. But most importantly, Jason, like Reggie, comes through when his team needs him and all eyes are watching.
He was OUR player. He WANTED to stay.
We can't afford to do such a foolish thing, anymore.
Don't deal Nate, Ryan, or Jack. Re-sign Doug.
Okay, after reading Baywatch's comment on the last thread, I went to read Starkey's "piece" (as in "piece of COPROLITE").
Many on this forum have had scathing words for Bob Smizik, mostly for his negativity. But Smizik isn't THIS negative towards our Buccos in their present configuration. The Starkey piece has got to be the saddest excuse I've seen yet, for something submitted for publication just to meet a deadline. Setting aside the issue of Adam LaRoche for the moment, it's asinine to trade away any and every player on the roster who's making more than league minimum. A) we've got 16 years of proof that being sellers of talent almost never works out in our favor, and B) while I'm the number 1 proponent of building through the draft, you can't put ALL our eggs into that one basket, while throwing out every thing else --come on!!!
For starters, more than in any other sport, the draft in baseball is a crap shoot. The future of prospects in the minor leagues come in a close second, in that crap shoot. Teams like Milwaukee do well in this crap shoot. But EVEN IF we approach Brewer-like success in making the right calls (and there's no reason to believe we can yet, until we've seen it), that's only a part of the equation. The Brewers are also made up of players they did NOT draft, like Cameron, Kendall, Bush, Suppan, Gagne, Counsell, Sabathia, just to name a few. The draft can only be one part of the puzzle. And blind faith in all one's prospects panning out is just foolish. We don't KNOW that Alvarez, Tabata, and company are going to be great. I certainly hope do (and for US...) . But count those chickens after they hatch.
Meanwhile, RULE NUMBER ONE, which the Jason Bay saga so clearly illustrates, is: hold on to the young talent you already have, while you have it.
The stupidity Joe Starkey argues, just to have something to say so he can meet his deadline and collect his paycheck, is to consign the Pirates to forever being the feeder system for the Yankees, Red Sox, and everyone else.
Somebody needs to seriously dope-slap him.
JL, When I read the piece I thought someone had tricked me into going to the wrong story, thats how bad I thought it was.
You have outlined that well enough that we do not need to give him any more highlights.
To the rest of you, do not waste your time reading it, that might be the only thing I would add to JL
Thank you, Jersey. You have a good point.
I can't participate in this week's discussion, simply because I haven't been able to follow the aftermath of the Bucs season or even the playoffs (the printed papers I get don't have a word of baseball), so I'll interrupt the discussions in order to thank all of you that wished well on Guilherme's birth.
Uglyken, BillyKid, JHadar, G-Man, JAL, madturk, Baywatch, Cave Bonifield, jersey joe, Pirata13, WhyStanBelinda, JL, José Lind's Pants and those who didn't comment but certainly wished everything good to the newest Pirate fan in Brazil (the second one?). I appreciated very much the comments.
@Baywatch, uglyken: I intended to change the avatar, but the server had other ideas. I'm lucky it "allowed" me to stay iwth the previous one, because at one point I didn't have any. Now I could make the change, but there is one picture I want to use, and I forgot to bring the SD card from the hospital this time. :(
@JHadar: Don't worry, Giesbrecht is a very hard name to spell. I learned it some two years after learning how to write. :) As a matter of fact, the only place I went where I didn't have to spell it was Germany.
@jersey joe: I brought the laptop with YouTube loaded so that Guilherme could hear the songs — I should've chosen a hospital that had a wi-fi connection, and that should, with the price they charge... He didn't seem to like the last one, because he started to cry, but then again it could be hunger — or cold or colic or... hehehehehe
@All who will participate on the gathering: Wish I could make it. Distance and, oh, a baby, won't allow me. But have a toast. And a blast!
If anyone here has an orkut account (Google's Facebook), look for my profile there, I have added some pictures.
HEAR YE! HEAR YE! ALL MEMBERS OF THE PBC ASYLUM!
The first of hopefully many gatherings is NOW formally scheduled for Sunday 5 October at 11:00 AM at La Prima Coffee House on 21st and Penn Ave in the Strip District. Let us know if that works and we will see you there. Sorry on such short notice but the sooner the better to kick things off. I am sure we would love to meet and greet each other. Let Jose Linds Pants or BillyKidd know via the blog or e-mail us from our PBC Homepage
@AG--How are mom and baby G doing? AS will be a regular thing when I see you here
Please give the little one a kiss from his extended PBC family.
"It takes a village to raise a child"
We should never have traded Bay.
He'll be the WS MVP.
@Paul Meyer or the oft chance that DK may look in...
Please let JBay know we miss him here but even more so how proud we are to have had the opportunity to call him our own. We are rooting for him to show just how good he really is and just how much he will be missed.
BK,
If "It takes a village...", can I get to be the village idiot??
Mom and baby are really fine, especially the baby, who doesn't have a 10-cm cut in his belly. :) He hasn't complained a lot, very seldom cries. Everybody says he should start when he arrives at home, even though his next-door neighbor at the hospital, who was born on the same day, cries all the time and has since he arrived.
Heading back to the hospital now (an eight-minute walk!). I plan on posting some more pictures here over the next few days.
Kudos!
JL - Wonderful, yet bittersweet post RE: "Some Musings on Jason Bay." Happy for him and his success, yet SO dismayed at his departure. You said it all with "He was OUR player. He WANTED to stay." We will see a Bay vs. Manny World Series?!?!
AG,
Best avatar in the whole asylum!!
Latest Rumor has Nate McClouth going to the Yankees for their junk. If this happens the Pirates can go ---- themselves! I quit!!!
BK, JLP, and all others lucky enough to gather tomorrow at La Prima... Enjoy the *inaugeral* meeting of asylum members! It is something I certainly would be part of, if not for the distance (at least this time!). Talking Pirates and getting to know more about Pittsburgh from the experts would be the best. Bottoms up!
Philly and BK and Badger,
Sigh.
Alright, folks. I've got a day pass to leave the Asylum for a few hours. I'll be back later. Everyone be good.
BK, you're doing a bang-up job making sure the gathering comes together!
@Badger--We will toast the entire Asylum family. Raise your coffee mug or favorite morning libation to all as well.
No need to go into a panic just yet on Nate leaving. There is a ton of disinformation floating around and I sincerely hope the posting by DK on the Final Game Thread saying there was no truth what so ever regarding rumors is true.
@JL<If "It takes a village...", can I get to be the village idiot??>
Sure, for once I am glad it is not me. :)
@JL--Thank you, but all I am doing is posting and reposting the invite every few hours.
The real thanks and credit needs to go to JLP (Jose Linds Pants) for the idea and original posting of the idea
THANK YOU JLP
AG, it had to be the news of lanny retiring that set little ag off, these are all proven make baby happy tunes.
This one below was to every child who ever ebteren our house by my dad and now I have carried that on and there has never been a child who did not love this song.
if you go this site the music is there learn this song and sing it to little ag
sorrry to all just could not transfer the melody and could not find a sung version I know is out there
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From:franciscus3928@comcast.net
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To:franciscus3928@comcast.net (joe franciscus)
Date:Saturday, October 04, 2008 8:42:08 AM
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NIEHS, National Institutes of Health, Department of Health & Human Services
Children's Privacy and Other Disclaimers
Can't Hear the Music?
My Pony Boy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Original Version by Bobby Heath and Music by Charley O'Donnell, 1909: With the advent of the movies, or "flickers", which were not yet firmly established in Hollywood, "westerns" were clearly gaining in popularity. Florenz Ziegfeld had this song interpolated into one of his shows. The verse is just short of a tongue twister, but the chorus is so simple that it quickly became a children's favorite!
(Thanks to "Perfessor" Bill Edwards for the midi and the research on this song's original words and origin)
Way out west, in a nest from the rest, dwelt the bestest little Bronco Boy
He could ride, he could glide o'er the prairies like an arrow.
Every maid in the glade was afraid he would trade his little heart away,
So each little peach made a nice little speech of love to him;
Pony Boy, Pony Boy, won't you be my Tony Boy?
Don't say no. Here we go off across the plains.
Marry me, carry me right away with you.
Giddy up, giddy up, giddy up, whoa! My Pon y Boy.
Till one day, out that way, so they say, came to stay a fluffy ruffle girl.
She made eyes, she surprised, and he found his heart was lassoed.
When he thought he was caught, how he fought, but she taught this pony boy to love.
But he balked when she talked of a trip to New York, so she sang to him;
Giddy up, giddy up, giddy up, whoa! My Pony Boy.
Giddy up, giddy up, giddy up, whooooooa! My Pony Boy
Another "popular" version performed by Bruce Springsteen:
Pony boy, pony boy
Won't you be my pony boy
Giddy-up giddy-up giddy-up whoo
My pony boy
Ride with me ride with me
Won't you take a ride with me
Underneath the starry sky
O'er the hills and through the trees
We'll go ridin' you and me
Giddy-up giddy-up giddy-away
Down into th e valley deep
'Neath the eaves we will sleep
Sky of dreams up above
And finally, another version that you might have heard:
Pony Boy, Pony Boy,
won't you be my Pony Boy?
Don't say, "No", here we go, off across the plains.
Marry me, carry me
right away with you.
Giddy up, giddy up, giddy up, whoa!
Giddy up, giddy up, giddy up, whooooooa!
My Pony
I hope jason has the october of a lifetime.
JL, take it from a cerified idiot sevant, be wary of what you wish for
never ask for direction when driving anywheres in N.Y. they will chuckle at you as you drive off the wrong way.
this is just ny funny bus. if this were to transpire, we will all get paper bags with the nutting buster avater printed on it and attend opening day wearing our bags.
@JJ--Oh my God. What did you just do? Nevermind save it for tomorrow...
That was a first and hopefully last 11 repeat post posts...you are too funny JJ....
Someone please take his keyboard away <Smile>
Let's hope the moderator can edit your repetitive posts.
@JJ--Just for giggles I copied your above post and pasted it to a word document in its format above, I was going to bring it tomorrow and have a little fun with you....JJ it is 23 pages long. I would have had to ask you to go to Office Depot to replace my ink cartiridge. Too funny.
@JL:
You get to be the idiot, 'coz I've already laid claim to Town Drunk.
;-)
Anybody happen to see the numbers Brad Eldred put up with the White Sox AAA team this season? 35 HR & 100 RBI makes me wonder if the Bucs gave up too soon...
Billy, I only found that out after I sent it. I id not know there were numerous versions. print just the frst version and then stop printing and i will do my dads rendition and do it with anyone who brings a kid or grandkid or street kid.
sorry to all ,that was not repeat or add button that is more versions of the same song i would have typed it out myself had i known this.
I may have just replaced nutting in nutting busters bullseye and I desrve it I think the Lord i am ot the first to do such a thing what did I tell you about being an idiot sevant this is divine intervetnion warning of what you ask for ha ha
I am not sure if this is shaping up to be an episode of the Andy Griffith show or Gunsmoke...
Billy if you are bringing your brothers reappropriated camera I am bringing aphoto that you can take a picture of and email it back to me and I will make it into my avater.
reappropriation as defined by the military police of the seventies: stealin done by some authority with only their own authority.
no better way to put it
www.youtube.com/watch
Jason Bay Trade,
I know we all cared a great deal for him and wish he were here and wish him well, but he isn't and it's time to move on. The Indians don't have CC and the Oakland doesn't have Harden, what they received in trades hasn't paid a single dividend for them yet, like the Pirates they HOPE what they got in their trades will work out. Remember Jason plays in the American softball League, where hitting is the most important thing and 96 mile an hour fastballs down the middle is what he is going to see a lot of, with the Pirates he saw a lot of sliders down and away and never could hit them. We forget easily, last year he was booed and people wanted the Pirates to trade him, and then the talk was well hope he has a good spring and maby we could get something for him, well he did and we did. As I said I think the world of the guy, but it's a cruel world and the trades had to happen.
@bf57--I think his injuries are what did him in here. That being said he was part of the poor instructional/mgmt/coaching regime.
@leadoff--he saw a lot of sliders down and away and never could hit them.
His consistency at the plate other than the injury year 07 beg to differ with your comment above
www.baseball-reference.com/.../bayja01.shtml
Billy--
Don't use statistics very much, don't like them, just know how the National League got Jason out, the Angels tried to pitch him that way, but could not get the pitch down, look at his hits and where they are pitching him now.I never did say he wasn't a terriific ballplayer and in my opinion one of the best left fielders in the game, but everytime he gets a hit are we going to hear about it and why did we let him go. Back to statistics, can we tell from statistics how good Walker is right now at Indy, the answer is no. You would have to see him to make up your own mind, with Bay I going by what I see. If you had a tape of the Angel game last night, I believe the anouncer explained that the Angels were going to try to pitch Jason down and away, however the speed trac they used showed the ball going over the middle of the plate and to Jason's credit he did not miss it. I am pulling for him.
I don't mean to be argumentative, hope you don't take it that way.
@BK--Gunsmoke or Andy Griffith--How about Hogan's Heroes or Laugh-In :)
Trades are always risky and there have many bad ones. Maybe the worst ever was this one-June 15, 1964:
Cardinals get Lou Brock, OF, Jack Spring, P Paul Toth, P and the Cubs get Ernie Broglio, P, Bobby Shantz, P, Doug Clemens, OF
It looked good at the time as Broglio had just won 20 and Shantz had also been a 20 game winner though he was a bit old when the trade took place.
After the trade--Brock 2,289 Games - 2,713 Hits - 888 Stolen Bases - 6 time All Star - 1964 and 1967 World Series winner - Hall of Fame.
Broglio Only 33 more starts, 7-19 record. Out of baseball after 1966 season.
Shantz only 43 more innings left with a 1-2 record.
Clemens Played 182 more games and compiled 731 at bats for the Cubs and Phillies. Hits 9 Home runs in 359 games. Out of baseball after 1968 season.
Spring and Toth also never did anything so basically the Cards got a Hall of Famer for nothing.
Leadoff-I think you are confusing Bay with AdLa on the low and away ones.
Prior to this year and essentially ignoring his '07 injury year, I always thought Bay's only weakness at the plate was his average with runners in scoring position. He seemed to hit a lot of his homers with no one on and when the score was 8-0 either way. But this year he was hitting walk-off game winning hits and homers when it mattered and you could tell he LIKED it. I was convinced he was over the hump on the clutch thing and what the Regime failed to consider was that he wasn't at the top of his value, but he had really made a fundamental leap in his game. He credited Don Long for helping him. I don't think once you "get it" on the clutch hits you lose it. Maz never hit for a high average, but he was clutch his whole career after the WS homer. Unfortunately for us, Boston fans are now going to be the beneficiaries. It's too early for the Reggie comparisons, but it wouldn't surprise me if it does happen and it couldn't happen to a nicer or better person.
JAL-that trade rivals the Ramirez and Lofton to Chicago trade, except the Chicago trade never looked good. :-)
Statistics do not tell the whole story but they can tell a good part of it. For example, tell in game 1 the Dodgers had 8 hits and 8 walks while the Cubs had 9 hits and 2 walks and will place a large bet that Dodgers won the game--and I will win most of the time with that bet.
Arriba--It does in results and, as you point out, it doesn't in terms of what it looked like at the time. Did not look good when made and looks even worse now.
@leadoff--<argumentative,>
You stupid moronic jack@**...
Just kidding..absolutley no arguments here from me just point counterpoint that is what makes this place tick so well
I think you are correct in your down and away theory, I also think for the most part (see Manny from the other night) that is where most teams will pitch the good hitters unless real good scouting has them up and in. Also the good hitters adjust on the fly when looking for D&A and all of the sudden it hangs just a little and they make the pitcher pay....You are correct also with the Amer. Sftbll Lg.
Perfect example last night in the 9th with KRod facing JD Drew he hung an 88 mph "change/fast" 2 run dinger. My 9 yo would of hit that into the next county it was so fat, me not so much, I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with a beachball and one of those oversized plastic bats.
Arriba--
No I am not confusing the two, your right Adla can't hit that pitch either, for that matter not many guys can hit a down and away nasty slider. I do believe that the hitting coach helped JBay a lot, and when he is hitting he does lay off that pitch, but I agree with you, he is vasty improved. The next time JBay strikes out watch were the pitch is. Incidently striking out for a power hitter is not crime, most of them do. The average that he hits for is a real bonus. It will be interesting if he has a year like this year next year just to see what it is going to take for the Sox to keep Jason.
@Baywatch wrote re: Discussion thread, 10-3-08
on Oct 4, 2008 4:12 AM
"That we WILL have a losing season in 2009 ... simply can't bring myself to figure on it, any more than I have in the past. I know the post-Bay/Nady trade team really spun its wheels, but I say with a lot more will - and more importantly, pitching - there is a way."
You part of the regime now? Or the promo? How aqbout more of WE WILL? lol
@BIllyKidd
"It takes a village" Nah just an insane asylum.
@AG
Nice pic, Glad to hear all is well and healthy.
@BillyKidd
Possibility of me showing up has improved a bit. I will to be there. I made a little diddy I would like you to see about the Bloggers and Pirates. Can't seem to figure out how to post it though. Not sure if you guys would need software or not. I shall bring it if I can make it.
and the mets shopping list is Krod to help that titanic.
What if the yankees offered Cano for Capps? I know they wouldn't but if you put cano in Left, and get the laziness out of him....
Mad Turk.. would you believe I just ran a simulation program (Baseball mogul), and with the same players, the bucs are 84-78..
It has Andy L. hitting .257 with 20 HRs.
Also, sadly, Burnett blew out his elbow..Snell has cy young type year.
If you are a fan of baseball simulation games, I'd recommend Baseball Mogul. growing up we used to play Microleague baseball on the C-64.
@mad--Man that is great news! Bring whatever you have someone will figure it out if not ship it to our resident computer guru JHadar.
<"It takes a village" Nah just an insane asylum.>
God help little G then....
@WSB--Dis they say how long MarianoR is going to be out? Capps no way. Package a deal with Grabow I will listen. If MR is on the DL for a lrg part of 09 then do not be surprised to see a mutli-player offering to cover their needs in the outfield and closer.
@BK--Word is that he should ready to start playing by spring training. Supposed to be a minor procedure.
Does LaPrima have wireless capabilities?
Maybe we could setup some type of feed for the others who can not make it?
@mad--I would bet that it does..If not we can borrow some signal from somewhere in the local area...AT&T and Sprint both have Network facilities with in a block or 2 of there. I doubt everyone down there has encrypted nets.
IF I can make it I will bring my computer and camera.
Big IF yet but I will try. Sure would like to be there.
Just called---no WiFi provided, but that does not mean it isn't available.
@mad---If you are anything like me (God Help you if you are) you will not be able to keep yourself away.
@WSB--<would you believe I just ran a simulation program (Baseball mogul), and with the same players, the bucs are 84-78.. It has Andy L. hitting .257 with 20 HRs.>
Tell your computer to put down the Crack Pipe and reboot.
BK-LOL
Maybe we could just use the simulation and not have to play the games next year. It would ensure a winning season.
@ Billy your response was just too funny!!
why stan belinda,
When we were growing up we played start-o-matic baseball, cards and dice.
Regarding Bay, PBC needed to take a chance to improve the future. We have no idea how this will play out. I was getting tired of seeing Bay strike out on low and away off speed pjtches. I'm happy for what he is doing for boston and I hope he wins a World Series, but holding on to him was the wrong move in my opinion.
Jason Bay is a very good baseball player. He came through a lot for the Bucs, and at times, like any athlete, he didn't. Now he's part of a lineup that has hitters so deep he's what - batting sixth or seventh? That has got to take the pressure off. I read an interview with one of his BoSox teammates that said JBay is a great fielder, great guy, great hitter- but if he isn't hitting that day, no big deal, other guys are.
Pittsburgh didn't have the kind of lineup he could be dispensible in. He had to be on.
Played 3 different games--APBA, Strat-0o-matic and earlier a game a friend and made up--used Topps baseball cards, drafted teams , made schedules, and rolled dice. 2 was a double, 3 a triple, 4 a single, 5 an out, 6 a double play if the situation was right, 7 a strikeout, 8 an out, 9 a walk, 10 and 11 outs and 12 a home run. We only played with players who were in the minors. Odd thing about it was that some players did much better through the season--RC Stevens, who never made it with Pirates, lead our league in home runs 3 straight years--go figure--we did nothing to make one player more likely to something than another.
Afternoon, Guys! I been up for a little while but the Mrs. had a few honey dos lined up for me that AT LEAST had to hold my attention before bloggin' ...
Now you guys know I'm the ETERNAL optimist ... just throwin' something out here ... Madturk2008, don't book my flight for Siberia after you read my initial remark here.
We are always slammin' Littlefield for being the inept general manager, well, that he was. BUT, he did bring us Jason Bay ... and, from what I understand he had his eye on Nady from the time he got started with the Padres.
Lot of talk on Bay with his recent performance in the playoffs ... just thought it might be tasteful to say that Littlefield did ONE THING right while he was here. Did he miss on Perez, the other part of the Bay deal? Perez obviously had/has the tools, as he's demonstrating with the Mets. I think Perez mostly was a head case while he was here. Without pointing fingers once again, we've seen that can happen to our pitchers ...
Anyone want to take a shot on anything else that Littlefield did that was good? I could use the company on the flight to Siberia ...
JAL/Jersey
We played srat o matic and before that All Star Baseball which had little cards you put on a spinner and spun away. Thousand of hours were racked up over the years during the summertime playing those great games.
Pittsburgh Bloggers Unite.wmv (3899KB)
Hopefully this will link properly...MadTurk created this for us I think it is really cool
@Mad--Hopefully everyone will see what you have sent..
If not does anyone know if linking a .wmv file to the post is possible..
Here goes nothing.
Sorry all. I am just smart enough around computers to be lethal.
People like JH hate me.
FYI: If you're interested, don't forget the Pens game is starting now on FSN.
@Baywatch
No, no, flight for you on those comments.
I just came back home, glad to se you have it. I could not get it to upload on my page....
You guys doing the simulated games go back over the last 16 years and see if we won any of them please.
Going to watch the Pens and Penn State. Then get my son.
Catch you later. BillyKidd I don;t see the file on your page?
@mad--I failed the 1st time. I will keep trying I also sent an e-mail to JH he is the resident computer guru.
you know it wasa going to happen and you have been waiting for it, a song to take us to coffee!
to get it right
strat-o-matic
Computers are tricky--I think they are aliens from another galaxy.
Useless dribble from the past
CUBS SELL ART WILSON.; Former Giant Catcher to Play for Pittsburgh Pirates.
February 17, 1916, Thursday
Page 12, 313 words
CHICAGO, Feb. 16. -- Art Wilson, catcher, was sold today to the Pittsburgh Nationals, Manager Joe Tinker of the Cubs announced. The terms of the sale were not given out, but it is said Manager J.J. Callahan consented to make a large cash payment for the catcher.
Wilson played 53 games--hit .258 and then was sent back to the Cubs
Microleague baseball, created by a University of DE statistics professor, was created by Microleague sports, a Newark, DE company (I could esseniatally walk from campus to their office). The company was bought out in the mid-1990s and essentially never heard from again. The games were based off of probablity and off of the stat-o-matic game, as a first generation computer game, complete with decision making (like sending the manager to the mound during a rally, and warming up the bullpen), hit and run, etc.
BK- I'm running Vista. I'll run another simulation.
Another trade from once upon a time
ROBINS GIVE PIRATES TWO PLAYERS FOR THREE IN BIG TRADE; MAMAUX OBTAINED BY ROBINS IN DEAL Brooklyn Trades Cutshaw and Stengel to Pirates to Bolster Pitching Staff. TWO OTHER MEN INCLUDED Burleigh Grimes, Another Twirler, and Chuck Ward, an lnfielder, Will Also Play with Dodgers.
Jan 10, 1918, Thursday
Page 15, 1817 words
Al Mamaux, the brilliant though erratic young pitcher of the Pittsburgh Pirates, for whom Manager McGraw of the Giants, Manager Mathewson of Cincinnati and Manager Fred Mitchell of the Cubs, have been dickering for many months was traded to the Brooklyn Club yesterday in the biggest deal involving Dodger players in many years.
Mamaux had won 21 games in 1915 and 21 in 1916. He pitched another 8 years and only won 27 more games.
Grimes--an afterthought in the trade, would go on to win 265 more games (he had 5 MLB wins at time of trade) --he would come back to the Pirates and win 25 games in 1928 and 17 in 1929 for them.
Chuck Ward played 5 more seasons but never in many games and never had much effect.
Cutshaw was a light hitting 2b who player 4 years with the Pirates--did hit .340 in 1921 (60 points better than he hit in any other season) and was put on waivers after the 1921 season
Stengel played 2 seasons in Pitt.--hit .246 and .293. Traded after 1919 season for the immortal Possum Whitted
I never thought I'd see the day when Baywatch would be a Littlefield apologist.
Can the end times be far away?
@JAL--Where do you come up with these great nuggets of info?
BillyKidd wrote: >>JAL--Where do you come up with these great nuggets of info?<<
I have a theory that JAL is not at all a human being and is, instead, a government computer that was the prototype for Wikipedia.
Re wi-fi at the coffee house: About two years ago, free wi-fi throughout downtown and nearby areas was set up. (See link below.) I read a later article from March of this year that says the time frame has been extended and so free wi-fi should still be up and running. Now, I am not sure if 21st and Penn is within the definition of downtown. But it can't hurt to bring your laptop and find out.
www.post-gazette.com/.../705733-192.stm
cockatoosfortails :-)
Hey, Buddy, let's not take this thing too far ... I was just trying to get some discussion started ... Maybe Littlefield and Bay was kind of like every squirrel finding a nut some time???
How 'bout dem Pens?
Always a day late and a dollar short am I. Yesterday, JAL posted the link to Joe Starkey's article about Adam LaRoche and other measures for next year. Naturally, you all saw the words "Adam LaRoche" and have been been breathlessly waiting for me to check in on the article. Let me point out that I am not familiar with Starkey's work as it pertains to baseball (only his contributions to The Hockey News). So, I don't know if he's generally positive or negative toward the team.
I have already gone on record here as being in favor of the team keeping some players to make the Pirates at least slightly entertaining for the fans to watch. This includes keeping Jack and Freddy for now. If Opie did dump everyone with a salary much above minimum, I would understand but would disagree and for this additional reason. I don't believe we will receive much in return for those pieces, enough to justify the result on the field. Unless there's a near-contending team who really needs a 2B or SS in the off season, who is going to give up much for guys who are coming off injury-type years? To me, we figure to get more in return by keeping them until July 31. If they are playing well, we will probably do better at that time. As for Adam, not tendering him would be insane. And trading him in the off season makes little sense either (much as I would love to see it happen). No one familiar with his April-May history is going to give up much during the winter. Now, if he starts to hit again in June like usual, trading him by July 31 again makes more sense. He's going to be a FA next year anyway, so trade him when he's hitting, not when he's worth so little.
Baywatch -
How 'bout dem Pens, indeed. Last February, I drove over icy roads to Pittsburgh, only to see Ottawa come back from an 0-3 deficit and beat the pens in OT. Now, the teams go to Sweden where they know I can't make that long a drive and beat those Sens. They hate me!
BTW, I'll give you all fair warning that sometime in the next week or so, I'll be changing my avatar as I gravitate to the Pens blog for the winter, though I'll still be here, too. It's just too chilly in the rink over there for my sleeveless vest.
Bay and G-Man--So nice to have you both in the room at the same time..
We have not chatted in a while.
@G-Man that is what I was thinking we should be pretty close to at least get some bleed off signal.
@Bay--How is Bay Jr doing at school and away from the parents?
G-Man - BayJr. was calling us all afternoon, for updates on the Pens game, from his job at Domino's in Greensboro ... He's pumped for hockey season.
@G-Man--Aw you going to run over to the the Pens Blog and leave us here? Yeah you said you will check in, justy like an ex girlfriend said we can still be friends. :)
The Pens did pull if off. You know I am not sure if I can cover 2 blogs....I would feel like I was cheating on my best friend
BillyKidd -
Thanks for the welcome. And I see my new avatar is already in place, less than two minutes after I uploaded it. It is a photo of me and my friend's two daughers (Lara and Beverly) wearing some of my vast collection of hockey jerseys. A couple of summers ago, I decided it would be good to take photos of all of the jerseys while being worn as proof for the insurance company in case of a fire. These are three of my old Penguins styles. Of course, you need a magnifying glass to make out our faces.
Glad we were GMTA about the downtown wireless. I didn't have wi-fi on my old laptop so I never go to try it out last winter when I was up for Penguins games and see how far it extended. Of course, I was staying at a McKnight Road hotel which is too far from downtown anyway.
I will be thinking of all of you tomorrow morning and may even brew up a pot of coffee here at the house in your honor. I think it will be cool to map the faces to the names. I wonder how many of you asylum denizens are willing to reveal their names. I can see our favorite ballerina trying to charge her 20 oz. coffees to a VISA card with "Pirata13" on it and getting rejected.
@G and Pops--Also I would have to classify my self as a bandwagon Pens fan, having followed them closely back in the late 70's Shultz, Mahavolich etc..My best friend's dad had seats on the ice in the corner where the visiting team entered. At 14/15 we thought we were big shots by having access to the Igloo club. I then lost touch with the team until they had their early run when they lost to the Caps in the mid-90's. The Pens stayed in the Marriott Waterfront Hotel in Annapolis and I saw them coming and going
I didn't realize Bay Jr was a Pens fan. It appears Seth Rorabaugh (blog master over there) runs a live blog for virtually every Pens game. He was blogging today from the TV coverage on FSN Pittsburgh.
Yeah, call me a two-timer. From what I have seen of the empty netters blog thus far (over the summer), the comment participation level is about 1-2% of what we get here. Of course, they have not run a full season of it yet. I remember DK telling me that the early weeks of the PBC blog were commented on more heavily than the Pens were during the Stanley Cup Final. All the more evidence of what a special breed true Pirate fans can be.
That blog, at least over the summer, has been very much like DK's "Morning Links" threads. Seth does an amazing job of locating things to read. He also includes links to a lot of videos and some still photos. He does a nice job. But, it's very different on the community side. I have seen a couple of the same folks from here over there (Disgruntled Goat, for one) but not many.
@G-Man--How does your wonderful wife put up with your blogging indiscretions? ;-)
BTW Nice avatar, you hussy.
I will visit occassionally, after a game, but I have found a home here.
@Bay--You have the wars tonight or are you and the missus enjoying the evening off?
G-Man is officially a traitor
G-Man wrote re: Penguins vs. Senators live - 10-4-08
on 4 Oct 2008 5:39 PM
Seth -
Thanks very much for the blog. This is my first opportunity to follow one in real time with a game. I live in Richmond, VA and don't have access to the games on cable/satellite. So this was really great to be able to follow the game.
AND HE EVEN GOT A RESPONSE--
Seth Rorabaugh wrote re: Penguins 4, Senators 3 - 10-4-08
on 4 Oct 2008 5:56 PM
G-Man,
My pleasure. This is always a ton of fun to do. Thanks for reading.
Just kidding G-Man You rule the PBC blog with your HAP CAP Awards.
@BK and G-man-- I just do such things for fun. I am not a government computer. I am an early sentient android :)
Triple Play Helps Pirates Down Braves, 9 to 4, for Fifth Straight; Majors' First 3-Way Killing of Season Checks Losers' 2-Run Rally in Seventh
May 6, 1955, Friday
Pens are pretty good and they rebuilt in few years. I wonder how Pirate players and staff feel when the watch the Pens and Steelers make the playoffs?
And these 'lowly Pirates" were not so lowly in couple of years.
Bucs Drop Bragan; Murtaugh Is Pilot
August 4, 1957, Sunday
Section: Sports, Page S1, 975 words
CHICAGO, Aug. 3--Outspoken Bobby Bragan today was replaced as manager of the lowly Pittsburgh Pirates by an interim pilot, Danny Murtaugh, "for the good of the team."
>>How does your wonderful wife put up with your blogging indiscretions?<<
In my life, the phrase "wonderful wife" is an oxymoron. I have been divorced since around 1980-ish. Never took another plunge of that sort.
Traitor? Well, it's not like you didn't already know I was a double agent. ;) I'm kind of amused that you went and crawled under the barb wire to the other blog just to rat me out. One nice thing about Empty Netters: no incessant whining about salary dumps. (That happened to the Penguins back about 5-6 years ago.)
JAL -
>>I am an early sentient android << Shall I call you "Mr. Data" and do you have metallic shiny skin?
As long as we're off topic some today, let me ask if any of you inmates are fans of "Mythbusters"? They are running a 5+ hour marathon right now. I never even knew this show existed until about two months ago when the head guys appeared on Letterman. I am addicted to it. Have to say my favorite part of the show involves anything featuring Kari. I keep watching it wondering if they ever do any baseball myths like showing how spitters work.
>>I wonder how Pirate players and staff feel when the watch the Pens and Steelers make the playoffs?<<
That's an outstanding question. I suspect they would be more envious/jealous than anything negative. Surely, anyone coming here knows the Pirates have a long history of failure and that it will not turn around overnight. Hockey (and football) have a greater opportunity for fast changes due to the salary cap. Also, players other than goalies generally don't take as long to develop to major league level as they do in baseball, though I'm not sure why baseball takes so long. Lots of "rookies" in BB are 25+ where as hockey rookies are rarely much older than 21 and can be as young as 17-18.
There are plenty of hockey franchises that are consistently bad, though none with 16 losing seasons. Kings are awful and Florida Panthers consistently struggle. Toronto has not won a Stanley Cup since 1967 and Chicago since 1960 or 61.
@JAL--I wonder how Pirate players and staff feel when the watch the Pens and Steelers make the playoffs?
Just a thought because I am not sure...I think more Pens/Steelers staff and players may live in the vicinity than the PBC. But just reading about it in your hometown news paper or off of ESPN has to hurt when you see and hear the success as well as a little pride for those that do live locally and support the hometown teams. I dunno maybe a little resentment towards management. 2 Names synonomous with walking on water in this town Rooney/Lemieux, and somewhat justifibly so..What I guess flabbergasts me now is why wouldn't the Nutting Family want to be held in such high regard? Dan and Mario could steal lollipops from babies, push little babushka wearing grandmothers into rush hour traffic in this town and some how end up getting pats on the back or free passes
@G-Man--Someone here has to try and keep tabs on you..Don't forget it was I who ventured into true enemy territory of the Brew Crew Blog a short while ago and brought back valuable info while pretending to be friendly to them....
A while ago we were talking about classic TV shows...I am not sure if this one was mentioned
F Troop. A comedy classic.
If you had to choose between these two to start in R Field who would you start? Try to avoid hometown allegiance
Hank Aaron
Roberto Clemente
@G-man--no--I look lifelike , unlike Keith Richards
Have never watched Mythbusters.
Here is another past trade
KLUSZEWSKI GOES TO PIRATES IN DEAL; Redlegs Get Fondy in Even Trade of First Basemen-- Each Player Is 33
*
E-MAIL
* Save
December 29, 1957, Sunday
Section: Sports, Page 103, 618 words
CINCINNATI, Dec. 28--The Cincinnati Redlegs today traded their famed but ailing slugger, Ted Kluszewski, to the Pittsburgh Pirates for Dee Fondy.
1958 was Fondy's last season-ht .218 with 1 HR
Klu played 2 for the Pirates--in 1958 he hit .292 with 4 HR and in 1959 he hit .262 with 2 HR and was traded in mid-season fopr Harry Simpson and Bob Sagers. It was Simpson's last season--hit .267 in only 15 AB Sagers never got an AB in the majors
Basically a set on worthless trades for all involved
Some one mentioned Luke Walker recently or use the handle Luk Walker--well, here he is :
Pirates Down Astros, 3-1, as Clemente's Triple Drives In Deciding Tally; TWO RUNS IN 6TH DEFEAT HOUSTON
June 1, 1969, Sunday
Section: sports, Page S2, 201 words
PITTSBURGH, May 31 (AP) -- Roberto Clemente's triple scored Richie Hebner with the deciding run and Luke Walker halted an eighth-inning rally today as the Pittsburgh Pirates beat the Houston Astros, 3-1.
Kluszewski,
The man needed 2 shirts to spell that name out
When he was in the field He wore Shirt 1 KLUSZ
When he was at the plate He wore Shirt 2 EWSKI
@JAL--Man you are killing me with this great stuff.
@BK--Depends on what I needed--if defense and a strong accurate arm was important-Clemente. Clemente also a better all around hitter.
Think to remember about Aaron is that he was a very consistent slugger --lead NL in HR 3 times and never lead MLB in a season. by comparison, Mike Schmidt lead the NL 8 times and MLB 6 of those times. If had a sSchmidt or Stargell (Lead MLB twice) I pick Clemente. If I have little power but good average hitters i pick Aaron.
@JAL--I agree completely...Then why did Best Damn Sports show Best Damn Baseball Team pick HA over RC
@BK--That's all for tonight--don't want to die the night before the gathering you set up :)
@JAL--It wasn't me JLP gets all the credit for suggesting this get together.
>>why wouldn't the Nutting Family want to be held in such high regard? [as Mario & Rooneys]<<
I have no basis to think they wouldn't. However, there are two major ways in which they are different. (1) Rooneys have lived in Pittsburgh all theiir lives, Mario for 25 years and civic pride is part of their core being. Nuttings are from, what, West VA? (2) Rooneys have been in football all their lives; Mario in hockey all his life. Nuttings probably never even played little league. And neither of these has anything to do with money.
As for Nuttings, I cannot fault them if they look around the league and see Florida, Minnesota, Tampa and others who have good seasons "on the cheap" and wonder why they can't do that, too. Bottom line for the failures probably is more McClatchy's fault than anyone's for hiring bozos as GMs and scouts and managers and coaches. We should have had better performing teams than we did, even on the cheap. Money becomes more important for Pittsburgh once/if we have a decent team and a lot of players reach arbitration and FA point. Then we have to spend to keep them. Right now, we are never good enough to justify (in managment's mind, at least) spending to keep people.
Ah, yes. F Troop and Corporal Agarn.
Who in RF? Clemente. Aaron was a wonderful player and hit a million home runs. He was a good fielder and an above average hitter. (I have no stats, just my memory on that.) Clemente was electric on both offense and defense. I saw Roberto more than once run to a spot in right field and have a ball carom off two sections of wall right into his glove, turn and fire the ball. Aaron could not do that routinely.
>>Then why did Best Damn Sports show Best Damn Baseball Team pick HA over RC?<<
Two reasons: (1) Fans love home runs more than any other part of baseball and it gets a disproportionate amout of attention. I never understood it, but it's true. What is it that Baywatch always says about the chicks loving home runs? (2) Clemente played in Pittsburgh in an era where not many of its games were on national TV. By the time Aaron was late in his career, he was in Atlanta and more press and publicity, especially for the home run record. Guess it mainly comes down to the home runs.
@BK--Because home runs are the glamor stats.
You both are so right.
I remember an interview with a Pirates relief pitcher, I can't remember his name, and he was telling a story about Clemente. The Pirates were up by a run in the 9th with 2 outs and a runner on second. The pitcher checked the runner and noticed Clemente standing in right-center field. he stepped off the rubber and yelled for Clemente to get back to right field. Clemente went back and the pitcher got ready to pitch again. When he checked the runner, he saw Clemente back in right-center field. He again stepped of the rubber and told Clemente to get back to right. The third time, he checked the runner and Clemente was standing in right field. He threw the pitch and it was a drive into the gap in right center. He put his head down because he knew the runner was goig to score. All of a sudden the crowd is cheering. He looked up and saw Clementew jogging in with the ball in his glove. After the game, Clemente told him " I bet your wondering how I caught that ball. I saw how you were holding it and I knew where it was going to be hit. When you threw ther pitch, I ran to the gap and was there to catch the ball".
I don't know of any other player who could know where a ball was going based on how trhe pitcher was holding it.I would take Clemente over Aaron easily.
Gent's I am going to bail out for a while, late dinner and some NCAA action. Check in a little later and if you are not here, we will toast the asylum around 11:30 AM so feel free to raise your coffee mug with us then. Remember it is because of all of you we have the opportunity to do this.
The first of hopefully many gatherings will be held tomorrow Sunday 5 October at 11:00 AM at La Prima Coffee House on 21st and Penn Ave in the Strip District. We hope to see you there. Sorry on such short notice but the sooner the better to kick things off. I am sure we would love to meet and greet each other. A toast to DK, PM, PBC, and the PBC asylum members will occur at approximatley 11:30AM. For those of you unable to join us raise your mugs then and toast with us. We will attempt to take pictures (I have my brothers digital camera in hand) and will try also if a laptop and Wi-Fi are available to log-in live from La-Prima. Many thanks to JLP for suggesting and putting this together.
@irate fan--<<I remember an interview with a Pirates relief pitcher>>
Steve Blass.
Thanks Billy. I couldn't rmember the pitcher, but I do remeber the interview.
I am planning on being at the gathering tomorrow. i hope to see all of you there.
@Irate--Fantastic, see you there as well.
Wishing those of you who will be able to go to the gathering tomorrow a great time .
Two things - one, way late - Edlred did have 35 HR and 100 RBI this year, but he also struck out 144 times in 455 plate appearances. That's nuts! IF he hits it, it goes a mile, which hasn't changed.
Secondly, something for those meeting in the morning. Have a great time... (courtesy of Trout Fishing in America, one of my favorite bands)
And not even a 10 game winner this season Pirates' Friend Trips Giants for No. 20; HOMER BY STUART DECIDES 6-4 TEST
September 11, 1958, Thursday
Page 46, 170 words
PITTSBURGH, Sept. 10 (UPI) -- Dick Stuart crashed a tworun homer with two out in the tenth inning tonight to help Bob Friend become the first twenty-game winner in the National League this season as the Pittsburgh Pirates downed the San Francisco Giants, 6 -- 4.
BK -- Just got home and answered your e-mail. The short answer is that what is missing is a web address. I feel sorry for the group if I have to be the computer guru.
I do not rememberSteve Blass ever being a relief pitcher. he was a starter in the mid sixties and after the 71 world series he lost control and never did regain it. As much as Blass was his own pitcher, I do not think he would have ever told Clemente where to play. Maybe blass in the booth was telling the story of another pitcher.
Everone wants a world series ring, clemente had two and was the most valuable player in one of them.
aaron was an ok fielder, no one doubts that clemente was the best and would have been a better center fieldr than Willie Mays if Billy Virdon was not already in center.
I saw Willie make one of those over his shoulder catches in forbes field and instantly knew that was a can of corn for Roberto.
I may have told this one before: I remember listening to a game that was tied and roberto got a hit stole second and came home on an infield hit.
Clemente was electric. Clemente was mesmorizing.
Clemente had power, not like Aaron but remember he was playing his game in forbes field where you could get lost in the rightcenter gap and that is where he hit a ton of doubles and triples some being homeruns in may ball yards.
Willie once said if Clemente wanted to he could have been a 40 homerun hitter if he wanted he chose to be the average with lots of doubles and triples kind of guy.
Like you point out about him knowing where to be, he was so good he chose what kind of player he would be.
not only do i pick Clemente over Aaron but in my lifetime my first position player pick would be Roberto.
Remember what Gowdy said during the 71 world series, now the rest of the baseball worlsd knows what pittsburghers have known all along, Roberto is special. I pick Roberto.
@JAL asked "I wonder how Pirate players and staff feel when the watch the Pens and Steelers make the playoffs?"
I believe DK has quoted Nate, at least (and perhaps others) as hoping they can bring similar success (& fan excitement) to PNC as the Pens to @ Mellon Arena.
OK BK & Madturk
Here's a link, I tested it outside the Blog and it did ok for me
s378.photobucket.com/.../PBCBlogger
Since it's keyed to me, I don't know if it will ask for a password, but if it does try PBC000.
Nice movie by the way....
For the rest of you, this is a movie that Madturk created and BK asked me to see if I could get on line. Now if only the link works from the blog.
@JH--It works You are the man Thanks for helping us out...
@mad--Great work on your part to create this. Thank you
@G-Man--May we please have HAP CAPs for MadTurk and JHadar.
JHadar--Fantastic! Worked without any password for me. Thank you!
geowes--I hope many more hope for that and work hard to make it so.
Very nice
Whew -- Calling it a night then, Red Green's on.
Madturk: Is the match between NuttingH's avatar and the music intentional or cosmic coincidence.
All -- In the words of Harold's Uncle, our hero: "I'm pullin' for ya', we're all in this together.
Forgive me if this is a double post, I think the server ate my first try, but it may just be slow.
Whoa--Mad, JH and Billy---that just blows me away! That is really impressive--thanks.
On the Clemente vs. Aaron, I would take Roberto over Hank anytime. And I can't look at it totally rationally. Roberto is my all-time favorite Pirate. I used to go to games with my friends and sit in the right field grandstand at Forbes Field and just watch Roberto. We were like 12 or 13 and would sit out there and smoke little cigars (I know this really dates me, but it was so fun). I even used to take dates to the games and tell the girl to just focus on Clemente. (Maybe that's why I didn't get a lot of second dates :-)) The thing was, win or lose, you enjoyed the game because of the way he played it and it really was like "I am seeing greatness."
He was a once in a lifetime player.
All you young fellers. Great job on the video.
I need to point out something. Jersey Joe should banned from the internet. And BillyKidd deserves all the credit for tomorrow. He has pulled it off despite me.
JLP-You have to say JJ should be banned about 23 times!
Awesome slideshow! I guess that was done before I actually added an avi...which I have changed, but it's all good.
Catch you all tomorrow.
Cool Viddie! Thanks, Mad!
Cubbies swept....LOL
And we have that going for us - We won as many post season games this year as the Cubs did.
***** BillyKidd wrote re: Discussion thread, 10-4-08
on 10-05-2008 12:46 AM
Roberto Clemente*****
Aaron was a fantastic power hitter -- and a great player in general.
But, for all around play, I'd have to go with Clemente. He could hit HRs as well as anyone if the situation called for it. After that, there is nothing at all that Aaron would have over Clemente.
Nobody could field and throw like Clemente and almost nobody could hit like Clemente, although Aaron could also produce some pretty good batting averages.
But when it comes to speed and defense, Clemente separates himself from almost everyone else.
I think Aaron may be the greatest hitter baseball has ever seen. Over 2000 runs scored and over 2000 rbi are hard to ignore. even if you subtract the last five years off his totals ...Aaron played 23 years to Clemente's 18...he still beats Clemente in every category except lifetime average and triples...317 and 166 for Clemente to Aarons .313 and 95.
Aaron had 15 years with over 100 runs scored and 11 years with over 100 rbi to Clemente,s 3 and 2 years.
Aaron also never struck out more than 100 times in a year ..his highest totals being 97, 96 and 94. Clemente had two years over 100 with 109 aand 103.
I am not posting these stats to vote for Aaron over Clemente.. I could not possibly vote impartially ..but I want Aaron to get his due as he was so much nore han just home runs.
Smoke - Some good points, and thanks for stepping up on behalf of Aaron ... I still think he had the best set of wrists ever.
When I think about comparing Aaron and Clemente, I think of those arguments we had as kids: Who was strongest? Superman or King Kong?
Good night, all. I'm off to bed soon ... I'm looking at an early start if I'm going to make the coffee gig in Pittsburgh at 11 a.m. ... Just kidding!
madturk2008 - Great video ... I love that "Welcome to the Asylum." Cool.
My comments were basically tuned to a situation where you had one single game to win & had a choice between the two with only one being allowed to play.
I would take Clemente without hesitation simply because he could do so much more than Aaron, particularly on defense.
Their bats would probably be pretty equal, but out in the field is where the difference lies. To be fair, Aaron was an excellent RFer -- but NOBODY can match Clemente in the outfield.
He was faster, had the greatest throwing arm in history and there was no play he could not humanly make in the outfield.
Regarding their lifetime stats, I would also try to be fair to Roberto by noting that he was killed while still on top of his game at the age of 38. If we can assume he may have played into his mid 40s, as Aaron, his lifetime stats would certainly have been much better than at the time of his death.
Aaron basically played in a crackerbox whereas Clemente played almost his entire career in the eastern version of the Grand Canyon -- Forbes Field ... the place where home runs went to die.
In a smaller park, Aaron was able to taylor his swing for power hitting (whereas the equally powerful Clemente taylored his swing for higher averages because of Forbes). Those HRs automatically created at least one RBI and this is what put him over the 100 RBI plateau so often.
The runs scored, etc., are more a sign of the team situation than the two individual hitters. If Aaron had seasons where he K'd in the 90s, it is not much better than Clemente's few seasons around 100+.
We can go back & forth in being fair -- and it is fair to note that some of Aaron's lifetime stats still would have been better than Clemente's even if Clemente had lived to play more seasons.
But still, all in all, I would have to go with Clemente for that one, all-important game.
Perhaps the only other outfielder I would match, defensively, with Clemente would be Mays -- and even Mays (with his own good arm) could not throw like Clemente.
As for the greatest hitter baseball has ever seen -- I'd have to argue that Babe Ruth is, without question, the greatest hitter the game has ever seen.
Remember that it took Aaron over 1,000 more at-bats to match Ruth's 714 HRs -- and we must also remember that Ruth's first several seasons were spent as a pitcher.
well they were different kinds of players and played in different ballparks and I certainly think Clemente has to be given the big edge on fielding . However I have never heard anyone say Aaron had a weak arm or was a liability out there. Dont think he was slow either as he had 240 career stolen bases. We all know Clemente was fast but he was not a stolen base threat with 83 lifetime steals. It just amazes me how most people overlook what he did in his career and I have no problem with that sports show giving Aaron the nod over Clemente
I think the world is about to end, tomorrow, if I am right, portions of the PBC will meet for coffee.
Critical mass for sure, please keep us posted.
Also, in 2009 when we see the Cubs at PNC, we should chant, what the heck, 101 years...
all good points highlander but I did try to point out the difference due to Aaron playing 5 more years. I do think it is amazing that a power hitter struck out so little. Another unusual thing is that he did not walk very much either..only one year over 90 I think.
Hey Bizrow..Cubbies losing was sweet wasnt it
Highlander
just looking at Ruth's stats and I was suprised to see how little he struck out..93 and 90 were his highest years. almost 900 less hits than Aaron but over 2000 walks and also over 2000 runs scored and rbi
Howdy,
Certainly, I never hinted that Aaron had a weak arm or was not a good fielder. I believe that I did acknowledge that he was a good outfielder. But the obvious edge goes far & away to Clemente in the defense department.
As with his power being taylored down to fit Forbes Field, Clemente also was not in the same type of situations regarding stolen bases. On the other hand, he did have a number of stolen bases and was easily capable of stealing a base when the situation called for it. I don't know his lifetime stats, but I'll bet his number of steals compared to caught stealing is very impressive.
Basically, all I'm saying is that, aside from more HRs, Aaron has absolutely NOTHING over Clemente in any other phase of the game, offensively or defensively -- and obviously defense is the game breaking reason for preferring Clemente over Aaron over one big game.
On the other hand, you certainly could not go wrong putting Aaron out there instead. He may not make an acrobatic game-saving catch like Clemente, or throw out the winning run at the plate with a powerful throw from the outfield corner -- but he would still do a very competent job in the field.
Yes, Ruth was amazing. He may have had 900 less hits than Aaron, but Aaron played well into his mid-40s and Ruth, of course, spent his first 3-4 years as a pitcher -- and, if I recall, he was once a 20 game winner.
As a winning pitcher -- and iconic HR hitter, Babe Ruth certainly was the greatest baseball player to ever play the game.