Pirates fire pitching, first base coaches

Kind of a surprise, though can't say he showed anything to keep him here. hopefully we can start putting together a good coaching staff...

Oh, and maybe he'll preach pitching inside...maybe?

Yeah, that's good. Make him a scapegoat for the fact that Snell (Oquendo) is a head-case and Gorzo was lazy in the off-season.

Zowie! Every time I'm just about convinced that "accountablility" is just so much more hot air, NH surprises me. If anyone deserved the ax, it was this guy. Leo Mazoni still around?

For my 2 cents they can show Russell the door also, but I doubt they will.

If they want to get a power bat as the Smiz ruminates about this AM (which DK reported a couple days ago), they'll have to pay for it and not wait for it. Dunn hit another 40 this year, and with his K totals may turn out to be cheaper than expected - but if as usual they hold out until ST time they won't get anybody except another LaRoach - and he does not a true power bat make.

The thing about Dunn is consistency. Like Bay was good for 30-35 almost every year, Dunn delivers 40 like clockwork every year. If you can get 25-30 from Nate, another 40 looks mighty good. Nate and LaRoach could even bookend Dunn giving us a 3-4-5 that would look decent for a change. I'd prefer they trade off LaRoach for the starter they're talking about, but the way he flops every spring, I don't think they'd get a good one for him. But they might get the setup man they want. Doumit would be fair protection behind a Dunn, or maybe they could get some 25-30 guy who hits all year long, instead of only after the all-star break, in FA along with Dunn.

It all comes down to whether Bob is actually going to walk the walk finally. Like the Smiz, my logical head says "no way, they'll go for the cheapie fix again", but then - like this morning - NH (and Bob) just may surprise me.

Thoughts out to Jeff Andrews. - You never like to see anyone get fired.

I can see holding Andrews accountable for the regression of Gorzy and Snell, but in my opinion Neal Huntington should hold himself accountable for the poor production of the # 4 & # 5 starters and his patchwork minor league bullpen.

Huntington was the one who made the decision to sit on his hands all last winter and not invest in any additional starting pitching despite seeing the 2007 performance of Matt Morris and Zach Duke (both of which carried over into 2008) and to dump the likes of Salomon Torres and eventually Damaso Marte as he supported Bob Nutting's never ending search for a lower payroll. The 2008 bullpen had disaster written all over it from day 1.

I don't know what Huntington expected Andrews to do with Morris, Duke, and a kwrappy bullpen made up entirely of minor league quality players. (With the exception of Capps of course).

Too bad accountabilty is a one way street when it comes to Bob Nutting, Frank Coonelly, and Neal Huntington. - Apparently everyone is accountable except them.

@JuniataKid

Easier to fire one pitching coach than replace 3/4 of a staff...

Suprised???? Scapegoat???? Please. This guy's a bum. Good move.

Here's what I like to think would be an 'outside the box' thought.  Hire Ned Yost!

I don't think that Russell was the problem, as a matter of fact I liked some of the things he did this season, but I feel like a guy like Yost would be just what this club needs right now.  Look where he brought the Brewers from.  (total crap that they fired him just a few weeks ago, but thats another story)  He can be a firey type that will get the most out of his club, and he most likely has an in with the aforementioned Mr. Mazzone from their days in Atlanta.  Again, I dont really condone canning Russell, but I think that if you have the chance to add Yost, it's a thought that should be looked into.  

Regardless, I definitely think they should get in touch with Leo Mazzone.  I'm actually friends with his nephew, so I just hit him up and pleaded for him to get his Uncle to send the Buccos a resume.  Ha....

Jersey Joe -- From the previous thread . . . hope you e-mailed that to Bob.  Well said.

And yes, I'm sure Andrews is probably a nice guy, but accountability is required at the MLB level.  Of course, real accountability demands more than removing the figurehead -- let's hope there's an instructional overhaul throughout the system, and especially at Indianapolis.  

Man! Nothing like Clemenza showing up at your door - shotgun in hand - early AM, day after the final game, singing the ol' Maureen McGovern song ...

www.youtube.com/watch

(I never saw the move - not the Godfather, the Poseidon Adventure ... looks like a pretty cool movie)

Anyway ... I was figuring there was a good chance Andrews might be out the door, to back up NH's accountability claim ... plus he's from the Littlefield regime.

I guess now, I'm wondering if it's a sign Russell will follow - given the accountability deal OR if it's a sign Russell will stay, knowing that the norm on that is normally, "You're gone, and your whole staff, too."

And then again, I would think Russell would be a harder call, and that NH would need more time to evaluate that ... sure didn't need much time on Andrews.

I wish you all the best, Jeff. Sorry it had to end this way.

Wonder who the Pirates will try to bring in? Maybe the guy from the Red Sox is ready now ... Farrrell? I just hope they don't go for somebody like Leo Mazzone who, for all their skill and experience, is retirement age?

But take a look back in your mind's eye at all the people from other clubs who visited the mound this year ... many seem to be pretty old .. the guy from the Cubs, the guy from the Reds.

Dejan, did you see this coming? I don't mean by the performance of the staff, but did you see/hear anything that gave you an impression that they had already made a decision about Andrews?

I respect Andrews for stepping up and taking the blame several times over the course of this disappointing season.

Given that he has been traveling with the team and was assigned to coach in Arizona this year, Indy pitching coach Ray Searage seems like the obvious choice. But I suspect that Huntington will be looking to bring someone new into the organization.

Leo Mazzone is available

Dejan,

Please ask Neal how and / or when he will be held accountable for his god-awful performance this season.

- He hired the coaching staff.

- He elected to vacation all last off season despite taking over a last place club that had not won in 15 seasons.

- He blew up the bullpen and claimed he was going to pursue the KC "Bullpen on the Cheap" model.

- He blew up the most productive outfield in baseball for a collection of questionable AAA talent and sent the club into a 19-41 tailspin.

- He almost blew the signing of the clubs # 1 draft pick resulting in a draft pick controversy the likes of which had never been seen before in MLB.

How and when is Huntington being held accountable for a downright lousy performance?

Why just Frazier and Andrews?

@Baywatch-Poseidon Adventure fun disaster movie.

Pitching coach i understand but what were the 1st base coaches failings?  Remember more talk about the 3rd bas coach than the 1st base coach.

What's the deal with Lou?  Other than his penchant for giving shoulder rubs, I'm not sure to what he is being held accountable for, unless it has to do with the incredibly low stolen base attempts figure...

ok, let's get the obligatory "Down goes Frazier......" (and Andrews) quote out of the way.

DK's initial post this morning noted he thought all coaches were safe from firing; this seems out of the blue! DK - what happened? Any comments from the present pitching staff?

It's been said many times i the reason past, Jeff Andrews is a good guy, but he's also from Littlefield's time here, and oversaw a lot of guys who did well in AAA and flared out here, or got hurt.

NH - If there's not improvement in the team in the next year, then it would be making sense to be looking at Neal and JR as far as holding them acocuntable.  Especially in the Bucs' case it makes no sense to fire these guys after one season.  They walked into a 15 year-old mess.  You can't expect it to be cleaned up in one year.  And by all acounts, while he wasn't off throwing money at FA's, Neal wasn't exactly vacationing last off season.  I believe last winter DK wrote about how much time both NH and FC were putting in here from the moment they were hired.

JAL - " ... what were the 1st base coaches failings?"

I couldn't help but wonder the same thing, JAL. Given what Neal said about not wanting to let anyone go after 1 year, you can understand about Andrews ... but first-base coach, outfield instructor?

I'd say Nate did pretty well ... but then again, he probably didn't need much coaching. Then there were projects like Nyj moving to left, Moss learning the wall in right and Pearce a continual project out there.

Hmmmmm ... I just checked out his bio on the Pirates web site ... Yep, it's still up, I was a little surprised. He was also the BASERUNNING coach ... that must've been it! Also, this was his first year, coaching in the bigs, after eight years as an instructional guy in the minors.

Also, I wonder if he just didn't get along with Russell, or maybe grumbled too much about the trades since - in a sense - Bay and Nady were his boys.

Lot more to speculate on Frazier.

Hey, if NH keeps feedin' us stuff like this on the blog, I think we might make it over winter!

Diehard,

I agree we can't expect Neal and Frank to reverse and fix a 15 year slide in one year, but we should be able to expect progress. - Steps in the right direction. - Not regression.

I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but I really see little progress at all. - I think Smizik summed up the current situation pretty well this morning.

IMO Huntington needs to have a productive off season to keep his job. - If he doesn't, then I'd like to see him go next July so the search for a replacement can be conducted and executed so that his eventual replacement is on board before the 2009 off season is in full swing.

Neal needs to understand that accountability is a two way street.

NuH: you may not like most of the comments from an article from one of our other newspapers, but (the other) NH does admit to "we were better at the time i decimated the roster with the trades...". Accountability? or at least honesty?

the link: www.pittsburghlive.com/.../s_590626.html

OK, he's the pitching coach, so it's ultimately Andrews' responsibility, but...I'm with Juniata Kid. What pitching coach in MLB could have overcome Gorzo's lack of preparation and Snell's propensity to go Carlos Zambrano?  (Only in terms of losing his concentration, not his pitching prowess.)  Don't forget, Andrews also inherited Matt Morris from the previous regime.  He's a pitching coach, not God.  He can't resurrect the dead.  

OK, now that I'm off my pitching soapbox...

As for the 1st base coach, maybe I'm hypersensitive because of all the workplace harassment training I've had in my job, but I told my husband that I've never seen a such a touchy-feely coach.  If he was coaching kids, the parents would have had him removed or killed him.

@Baywatch--"Hey, if NH keeps feedin' us stuff like this on the blog, I think we might make it over winter!"

I think you may of hit the nail on the head there. I have a feeling that we will see more activity this off-season. He may have been sitting on his hands a little last year since he was relatively new to our team & personel. He should have a strong understanding of the hand he is playing with now. I think/hope that he will be a lot more active in making additions/subtractions this year. Unfortunately, action does not necessarily lead to success, but no action will doom us to be what we have been.

We suspect that we will have plenty of red meat to feed on durring the winter. It could be very interesting.

@Trite Trophy Winner - "I've never seen a such a touchy-feely coach.  If he was coaching kids, the parents would have had him removed or killed him."

Wouldn't it be funny if he was fired for that reason ...

Just back-rubbed his way out of baseball ...

And you never know: Maybe Beasley made it back on the strength of the one National Anthem he sung! Seriously, I kind of liked Beasley at third base ... I thought he was better than the old guy Tracy had over there.

Gloom and Doom, anytime your looking at the negative side of things, read a Smizik column.

NH is not and was not perfect in his first year on the job. He spent a lot of time working on the farm system, which is leaps and bounds better than it was, unfortunatley a lot of the talent is A ball and lower, thus the trades to try and upgrade the AAA team. I maintain that a lot of the problems with this team is not the talent as much as the instruction, pitchers do not have the mental side of pitching down, all of them have stuff and can throw hard enough. The outfielders don't have a clue where to throw the ball when they chase a ball down, none of them know how to play the wall. When the infielders take cutoff throws, anything can happen, usually not very good. The starting catcher needs a lot more experience on the catching side of his game, he hits well.

The rookie manager needs to make a lot better decisions all around. NH has a lot of work to do this winter, but the team is not that far away from being respectable.

Think about it, the number one reason for the Bucs failure this year was starting pitching, the poor starting pitching took a pretty good bullpen in the early months and wore them out, now we have people saying how bad the bullpen is, but it isn't that bad. There quality minor league talent is probably 2 years away, some stop gap free agents or a good trade or two, could go a long way to make this team at least respectable until the talent starts to flow from the minors. and yes Mr. Smizik, Doumit and McClouth probably will be traded when they are 29 or 30, check out Twins and A's organizations, they let anybody go and then they just reload, thats what the Pirates have to get to.

Juan Pizarro -

Thanks for the link, I don't ordinarily read that newspaper, but that article was interesting.

This quote kills me though.....

"We've done a lot of things very well," Huntington said. "It just hasn't translated into wins and losses. My hope is the lack of significantly more wins at the major-league level doesn't cloud fans' judgment that we've done nothing. Because in my mind, we've done a lot."

It didn't take Neal long at all to adopt the exact same excuse McClatchy and Littlefield used for their time with the Pirates. Year after year McClatchy and Littlefield would go on and on about all this imaginary progress the club was making that for some inexplicable reason never resulted in anymore wins. - To this day, I'm not really sure what improvements they were referring to.

I get so sick and tired of hearing Pirate brass talk about imaginary improvements that never result in an improved product on the field.

These bozos are clearly confusing activity with results. - I'm sure McClatchy and Littlefield were nice guys and worked hard too, but at the end of the day, just like in any other business, it's all about results.

I really don't care how hard Huntington or Russell think they are working. I care about results. Period.

The fact of the matter is, this club finished worse than it did last season and Neal decimated the club to the point that next season looks even more bleak.

In my opinion, if these super terrific young players Neal thinks he obtained don't show dramatic improved next season, then Neal should be fired as well and enabled to move on this his lifes work.

There must be a lot of action on the Steelers blog. The server is really struggling.

Leadoff,

"He spent a lot of time working on the farm system, which is leaps and bounds better than it was".

Really? How so? Specifically?

The players the Bucs called up from the minors performed horribly and to a man all looked unprepared.

A bunch of the minor league coaching staff has been let go.

The Penn State club, comprised of a bunch of the talent the club drafted this summer failed to almost historical proportions.

Of course, why wouldn't it when the GM chooses to focus his amateur draft budget primarily on the players he drafted 35 through 50 instead of 1 through 25.

Please articulate specifically where these leaps and bounds exist.

Thanks.

leadoff - You make some very excellent points AND help bring all of us here in The Asylum back to the ground with well-adjusted thoughts.

I understand the Pirates may be replacing their Mental Skills coach ... would you be interested? Honestly, they have a Mental Skills coach ... I heard Lanny interview him on the pre-game show one night.

Just a few thoughts on what the new Mental Skill Coach might do, in order to remain accountable:

First order of business: Order a pre-frontal lobotomy for Snell.

Not to far behind: A hypnotism session for Adam LaRoche: ("Repeat after me ... It is June-September. It is June-September. It is June-September")

Get Ronnie Paulino OFF the couch.

Hire Jose Lind's Pants as your assistant.

And, most importantly, use your connections with the marketing department to create a "High Blood Pressure Medicine Night" the day after John Grabow pitches ... nurses waiting with BP cuffs ready at the gates for the first 5,000 in attendance.

Yinz who QUALIFY get a 1/2 price discount from the Jine Iggle pharmacy.

@leadoff & hostage

The proof that the minors is way below par is that they failed so miserably when we needed them. However, any proof that points to improvement of the minors can't be determined until we see their contrabutions when need them. All that can be said now is that they are attempting to address the issue. The success of those attempts are yet to be determined.

@leadoff & hostage

The proof that the minors is way below par is that they failed so miserably when we needed them. However, any proof that points to improvement of the minors can't be determined until we see their contrabutions when need them. All that can be said now is that they are attempting to address the issue. The success of those attempts are yet to be determined.

@leadoff & hostage

The proof that the minors is way below par is that they failed so miserably when we needed them. However, any proof that points to improvement of the minors can't be determined until we see their contrabutions when need them. All that can be said now is that they are attempting to address the issue. The success of those attempts are yet to be determined.

@leadoff & hostage

The proof that the minors is way below par is that they failed so miserably when we needed them. However, any proof that points to improvement of the minors can't be determined until we see their contrabutions when need them. All that can be said now is that they are attempting to address the issue. The success of those attempts are yet to be determined.

@leadoff & hostage

The proof that the minors is way below par is that they failed so miserably when we needed them. However, any proof that points to improvement of the minors can't be determined until we see their contrabutions when need them. All that can be said now is that they are attempting to address the issue. The success of those attempts are yet to be determined.

@leadoff & hostage

The proof that the minors is way below par is that they failed so miserably when we needed them. However, any proof that points to improvement of the minors can't be determined until we see their contrabutions when need them. All that can be said now is that they are attempting to address the issue. The success of those attempts are yet to be determined.

I am sorry to see anyone fired, and I'm surprised given Andrews' history with most of the starters...Duke, Snell and Gorz, that they didn't do better, but with a few exceptions -- Grabow, Capps, Maholm and Yates -- everyone else didn't do so well.

I think Frazier was fired more the "outfield instructor" part maybe than the 1st base coach...though I'm not sure he gave the best advice at 1st either.

I wish them well and hope NH can get good guys to fix what's broke.

I will never hit the Add button more than once ever again. Oh brother.

Leadoff,

One other thing, help me understand what is good about the Pirates bullpen.

The Pirates went into the 2008 season with only 3 proven relievers in a bullpen of 7 (Capps, Grabow, and Marte), then they dumped Marte. The rest of the bullpen performed as expected....like unproven minor leaguers. I know some will claim that Yates is proven and to a degree that I agree. He has proven over the course of his career to be too wild to be an effective reliever and that did not change this season. (4.66 era & 1.54 whip). Same story with Bautista.

So if you don't mind, please help me understand what is good about a bullpen that now has 2 proven and success big leaguers in Capps and Grabow and then a bunch of inexpensive minor league fill-in bodies.

Andrews should have been gone a long time ago and probabbly some pitching instructors in the minors.  Scratching my head over Lou, though.....

Hostage

You answered your own questions, I said the instruction was a huge problem, you answered that a bunch of the minor league coaching staff has been let go. That is what NH is supposed to do. The real question is how good are the people that are replacing these guys?

The players the Bucs called up from the minors performed horribly and to a man all looked unprepared. Thats exactly right, where did that talent come from and who instructed them.  

I said they had a lot of talent from A ball down, which they have, too early to convince anyone of that however, just have to take my word on that one. At a later date I may take the time to put a list of who I think the bucs have in their system that are going to good ballplayers.

NuttingHostage - I know you're awaiting leadoff's articulations about how the minor-league system has improved ... but I have a few observations on the things you've said.

Now, leadoff merely said "He (Huntington) spent a lot of time working on the farm system, which is leaps and bounds better than it was".

I figured he meant from the time he was hired until now ...

You said, "The players the Bucs called up from the minors performed horribly and to a man all looked unprepared."

a)Huntington can't really be held accountable for the players Littlefield drafted; and

b) all "to a man" were NOT unprepared. When Morgan was recalled, he brought an every-day-improving, exciting, productive dimension to the offense - his baserunning gaffes notwithstanding.

You said, "A bunch of the minor league coaching staff has been let go."

Why do you make that a negative ... I see that as a positive in the overall scheme of pitiful making minor league instruction better.

You said, "The Penn State club, comprised of a bunch of the talent the club drafted this summer failed to almost historical proportions."

Don't know if I would call it "a bunch." Unless I'm mistaken, MOST of that team was made up of Littlefield scraps from the past ... I may need some help here, but I'd think "a bunch" is a stretch.

But even so ... it's a work in progress, and if leadoff meant Huntington has made progress in the steps he's taken to overhaul a minor league organization that was in TERRIBLE shape, I'd say he - and Huntington - are right on target.

Oh. And leadoff's "leaps and bounds" may have been a little over the top, but cut him a break ... he's a bit of an optimist, like me.

And cut me a break, too, while you're at it :)

Dmac,

"I wish them well and hope NH can get good guys to fix what's broke."

I think what we are going to find out is that replacing the pitching coach and the 1st base coach of the Nutting Pirates is like buying new lipstick for the pig.

Without better players, it won't mean anything.

If Nutting continues to field low payroll teams, with half the roster comprised of minor leaguers and cheap cast off vets no other club wants like Mienty, Blondie the Cop Beater, Rivas, and Gomez, the worlds best pitching coach and worlds best firstbase coach are not going to make an appreciable difference.

Too bad Huntington doesn't spend any of his time trying to acquire better players instead of less expensive players.

JAL -

>>Pitching coach i understand but what were the 1st base coaches failings?  Remember more talk about the 3rd bas coach than the 1st base coach.<<

My thoughts exactly. If you had asked me the name of the first base coach, I would have had to use a lifeline and phoned a friend (Pirata13, BillyKidd, you?) What did this guy do wrong except remain invisible?

While am mildly surprised by Andrews firing, it's mostly because it came so quickly. Obviously it was not an overnight decision. I feel certain his previous work with many of the pitchers combined with this poor performance sealed his fate. If this had been his first year with the organization, I imagine he would have been retained at least one more year.

In summary, I will speculate that someone was going to be fired as evidence of the accountability thing coupled with the horrible performance post-trade. Andrews was an easy target and probably deserving. Frazier? Well, maybe that's to make it appear Andrews is not being scapegoated.

NuttingHostage - I think Dk pointed out several times that in fact, the "Penn State" club as you call it, was mostly comprised of castoffs and leftovers from the Littlefield regime. Additionally, the most successful of the Huntington draftees went to Hickory rather early on.

The success or failure of the Spikes should be considered meaningless. They should exist (personally I don't think they should exist at all, as I posited in a post last week) solely to winnow out the chaff and expose the players with potential. Seems like that happened with the new draftees. The rest of the team are just placeholders, although maybe - maybe - one or two of them may stick.

Not sure about your comment about focusing on players from rounds 35-50 getting the focus. Seems to me that the vast majority of the money (hence the "focus") went to the high-round guys. Can you cite ("articulate specifically") or at least spin how you came up with that argument?

uglyken - I think you had too much red meat this morning ... that's probably the record for most posts of the same comment ... six.

Whew ... pretty soon, we'll have to come up with a Blog Statistician ... JAL, are you interested?

Long post with the updates, and the only mention of the A-word was inside a quote.

Thanks Bay,

I didn't mean they were all mental, the pitchers that came from the Yankee system know how to pitch, just can't throw the ball where they want to, but they actually know when to throw fastball, curves, sliders and changups. These guys just need to develop consistancy.

My theory, you can't win with just young players, you have to mix some veterans into the equation. Our team in August looked like the JV team. Look at the Cubs, a lot of old guys having career years. Unfortunetly in Pittsburgh andbody over 30 is considered part of the overthehill gang. Keep Jack, Dirt, and Michaels and add a couple more.

Leadoff,

First of all, how do we know the farm system is "leaps and bounds" better just because Neal fired some of the coaching staff if we don't know who is going to replace them? - It can get worse you know. Neal has been known to replace veteran coaches with young, recently failed minor league players who will work for peanuts and getting their first coaching experience. Ever. That is hardly an upgrade and I'm sorry but you are going to have to do a better job than that to stand up to your leaps and bounds claims.

As far as the A ball talent, the facts contradict your optimism.

Lynchburg (58-80), Hickory (52-87), and State College (18-56) played a collective .364 quality of baseball against the A ball talent of other clubs. - I'm not sure where this talent is you claim is there? - It sure didn't show on the field.

Didn't take long to fire the ineffective Andrews.  That is good.  The Pitching was just awful.

NuttingHostage - "blondie the cop beater."

In the interest of being a little more gracious, please don't connect players past personal problems with what you might feel to be current poor player performance."

Thanks.

Lou Frazier had to go.  This is simply a cost cutting move and they are going to play next season without a first base coach.   Can our bullpen coach be far behind?

@Baywatch

It wasn't the red meat, it must of been all that extra coffee that I need to get moving on Mondays. I think that the Steeler blogers have the server working in slowmotion, and my mind is going at a completely different speed.

Hostage,

The only minor league team that can in any way be attributed to this Pirates Management Team was at Bradenton which did extremely well this year.  To write these guys off after one year is incredibly ignorant on your part.  Instead of whining and complaining please give some rational thought into whom the Pirates can bring into the mix at this point.  I'm sure you are one of the idiots who think Sabathia and Sheets are going to trip over themselves to sign with the PBC.   Not going to happen.  Not for any amount of money.  Not until they prove for a few years that they can be competitive.    That will not come until they build up the minors.  Look at Tampa, Minnesota, Milwaukee.   That is what they are trying to imitate.  It does take a little longer when the cupboard is completely bare.  At least now they have a few pieces of fine china

Baywatch,

I'll be gentle. ;-)

"When Morgan was recalled, he brought an every-day-improving, exciting, productive dimension to the offense - his baserunning gaffes notwithstanding."

- Exactly. - This is the guy who continues to overslide bases into outs and makes one bad baserunning decision after another. - To me, that is an aspect of being unprepared so i stand by that.

"You said, "A bunch of the minor league coaching staff has been let go." - Why do you make that a negative ... I see that as a positive in the overall scheme of pitiful making minor league instruction better."

We cannot automatically assume the replacements will be better. - I'll definitely be willing to bet they will earn lower salaries because that is the Nutting way. - Don't forget, Neal has a track record of replacing veteran minor league coaches with Jim Tracy's off spring, inexperienced and inexpensive. - How about we wait to see who the replacements are before we make a judgment?

"You said, "The Penn State club, comprised of a bunch of the talent the club drafted this summer failed to almost historical proportions. - Don't know if I would call it "a bunch." Unless I'm mistaken, MOST of that team was made up of Littlefield scraps from the past ... I may need some help here, but I'd think "a bunch" is a stretch."

Nope, a high percentage of this roster was comprised of guys Neal drafted this June and the went 18-56 (.243).

Agreed. - "leaps and bounds" is over the top and I'm simply asking for concrete evidence of it because I'm having a tough time seeing anything but well intended optimism.

@Cave--"Lou Frazier had to go.  This is simply a cost cutting move and they are going to play next season without a first base coach.   Can our bullpen coach be far behind?"

Along those lines, maybe we should replace JR to save a few more $'s. We can hire Dirty Doug to be a player manager. sort of a 2 for 1 deal. ;-)

I would give Opie an incomplete as a grade this year.  We have to wait and see how these trades work out next yearand then we can re evaluate him.    

He did however remain content sitting on his hands last winter while we were all worrying about the bullpen and the fact that the team had made no significant changes after the 2007 season.   His biggest moves were exchanging the bench guys.  

His honeymoon just ended and his clock is now ticking.  He needs to make some bold moves this offseason even if it means trading some of the players he just acquired.  Another winter of hand sitting won't be tolerated for long.  

All eyes are now on Opie.

Hostage,

Its is good that you know the records of the Lynchburg, Hickory and State college teams,  but that does not indicate they don't have talent, YOU don't need 25 players from each of these teams to be good, you need a few from each team to be future players, the record means nothing in minor league ball, Littlefield flooded the minor league teams with veterans cut from Major league baseball to make these teams win and look good, but the teams they have now are mostly kids. The pitchers in A ball and down were kept on strict pitch counts and were monitored on what pitches they can throw. The emphasis was not on winning in the minors, it is on learning to play the game, I am simply saying the new Pirate management has the right idea, time will tell if they have to right people to get the job done.

Cisco,

If you compare the Pirates draft signings (pick by pick) with that of the Cubs and Brewers, you will find two things:

1. The Cubs and Brewers signed more of their picks than the Bucs did and thus infused their farm systems with a greater quantity of young talent than the Bucs.

2. The Cubs and Brewers both focused their amateur draft budget on picks 1 through 25. - Both signing upwards of 90% of their top 25 picks. - Neal and the Pirates on the other hand signed a much lower percentage of their top, 1 through 25 picks than the two best clubs in their division and instead signed unusually high percentage of picks 35 through 50, something no other club did.

Go to each clubs MLB website, click on "Roster" and then click on "Draft Results" for the cold, hard facts.

NuttingHostage - "As far as the A ball talent, the facts contradict your optimism."

Thankfully, the facts will NEVER contradict optimism ... if they did, I'm sure many of us would never be here.

But one little fact that should be built into your equation, NH, Hickory's team was assembled and began playing in April ... two months before Huntington's draft. Only State College started playing after the draft ... again, heavily with Littlefield scraps, not a majority of Huntington draftees.

Thanks for all your good info ... I'm not you need optimism any more than I need facts ... in many ways, I think we're coming together on that balance!

G-Man gives out the Hap Caps ... I bestow the Hugs!

Baywatch,

Michaels on field performance commensurate with his past scrapes with the law.

They both stunk.

It was interesting though, since taking over Coonelly has waxed on and on about the kind of people he wants the Pirates to employ in the future, then the next thing you know the club turns around and signs Michaels, a man recently convicted of assaulting a police officer, and acquires Tabata who has enough behavioral problems in the minors that the Yankees were looking to dump him and then as we all know the club is shopping Jack Wilson, a 4 time Roberto Clemente award nominee.

It's amazing how quickly money and Bob Nutting's priorities can make a man contradict himself and compromise his beliefs.

Stu - "I'm sure you are one of the idiots ..."

Stu, at the risk of sounding like one of the insecure toys in Toy Story, I ask that you refrain from calling fellow bloggers names ... Although we may disagree with NuttingHostage most of the time, let's not call him a name.

I hope you don't take this as a strong rebuke ... I think there are those of us here who really believe this is a class joint, compared to other blogs where a lot of name-calling goes on ...

Thanks.

Our minor league talent is not viewed highly at all up to the A ball level.     Of the 4 leagues we participate in we had only TWO prospects make it into BB America's league top 20 prospects list.

They were Jarek Cunningham at #20 in the GCL and Chase D'arnoud at #18 in the NYP.  So much for highly thought of talent below AA.   The AA and AA list will be out shortly but I expect possibly one player to make that list and that would be Tabata.

More so than building the major league club, building a minor league system that is ready to feed the parent takes at least 3 years.  

There are, I believe a few sleepers in A ball, but AA is basically bare and AAA is well documented.

baywatch--nice new avatar.  and Dad & I are down with High Blood Pressure Medication Night. woo-hoo! Thanks for the genetics, Grandma! (who, incidentally was a huge Stargell fan...)

Baywatch

Re: Stu

Right you are , brother.

Hostage,

First I want to compliment you on your AV, I think that is one of the better ones on here.

Second, what exactly are your criteria for judging NH's performance this year going to be?  Can you sit there right now and say the trade with the Yankees was a failiure?  Will you know a year from now?  Or will it be 3 years from now when we see where Tabata is that we know.  If he's playing everyday OF for the PBC and putting up 30/100 type numbers, and pick any one of 3 pitchers in the trade as being an effective middle rotation starters, will it be a success?  I'd argue it will be.  But who can say right now.

Remember this is re'building' not reloading.  And it's building from ground zero.  We all have to forget the previous 15 years to some extent..can't hold those against NH.  

Right now I have some questions about the Bay trade, but ultimately that pitcher who's only at double-A will determine if that was a successful trade or not.  

When you said "when nutting stops field a lineup of..." - I have to disagree right there.  He's not fielding a lineup.  He may be saying they can't spend more than $55 mil to field one, but last time I checked the Marlins just finished another winning season spending less than the PBC.  Spending 70 mil like the reds and brewers is not the only way to guarantee winning.

And hopefully the phillies will wipeout the brewers..small market success for other teams just gives me a migraine.

Hostage - I'm sure you'd agree with me that if we had a starting SS who could play slightly above average defense (like Jacko) and actually hit .300 with average power numbers (20HR, 80rbi's) , I wouldn't care if he regularly beat up security officers on a weekly basis.  I say pshaw on character - give me productivity!

You are right though - Jason Michaels could be citizen of the month and I wouldn't resign him for what he's making now..he's your typical american league-softball beer league type free swinging, no glove stooge.

Baywatch,

I apologize for my choice of wording, but it was all I could think of at the time without throwing expletives out.  The Pirates last year couldn't get a backup catcher for more money than he eventually received from the Nationals.  For people to think the PBC should just throw money at free agents just are not seeing the big picture.  Hostage would you rather the PBC did what Seattle did last year and trade all there prospects, and sign pitchers like Silva to ludicrous contract.  It worked out really well for them.  Next year is going to be bad, probably really really bad.   They are building for 2010 and beyond.  If they have a great draft next year and the year after they will be in great shape.  Look at the big picture not just a small sample.  They have only been here for one year

Thanks, Stu ... humility goes before honor - and we all need large dosages of it. Actually, I think following the Pirates for 16 losing seasons has factored into character building!

And I appreciate your thoughts, too ...

G-Man - One of those specially-designed off-season Hap Caps for Stu, please!

Leadoff,

Let's start from scratch.

Please detail for me solid, concrete evidence that the Pirates farm system is "leaps and bounds" ahead of where they were.

And detail for me all this talent they have in A-ball.

I appreciate your optimism, but you have yet to address either question.

Sure, the Bucs have young guys in A ball now compared to the minor league the that Littlefield use to employ. But the fact remains (based on their record compared to their peers) that the Bucs so-called "talent" in A ball still lags the rest of the industry. - So my question remains, what talent?

And please, I don't buy into this stuff that the Pirates are focused on other things in A ball besides winning.

Based on the records, the Pirates a-ball teams do not stack up with the rest of baseball.

Has anyone out there besides me caught themselves wondering who's pitching tonight?

I got enough troubles trying to re-lace these cheap Wal-Mart skate shoes ... took the strings out and discovered the shoestring holes aren't big enough to put them back through ...

Creative Dude Baywatch and his Phillips head screw driver to the rescue, though ... or maybe more like Random Dude Baywatch?

Baywatch wrote re: Pirates fire pitching, first base coaches

on Mon, Sep 29 2008 2:01 PM

Thanks, Stu ... humility goes before honor - and we all need large dosages of it.

I think we all need a large dose of something like meds, beer, wine, JD or something along those lines.   Just kidding but we are here in the asylum for a reason are we not?

Well the server kept me out of this all morning.  

Hostage -- anything you compare to perfection is going to fall short.  Errors are easy to find.  I admire your tenacity, though -- and you do hate losing and want to win NOW.  When I look at things through that filter, I see where you're coming from.  I'm glad there are guys like you on our side, but I wonder if in your zeal to get things changed quickly you might have become a little intolerant.

I have to agree with Bay about Morgan and give you a lawyers' quibbling out for the baserunning gaffes.  Morgan was hitting in the .130's when he was sent down and came back and put up league hitting numbers.  That counts as 'greatly improved.'

Also, you can't logically argue either with reference to minor league coaches that "We cannot automatically assume the replacements will be better." unless you are willing to apply the same logic to Huntington, Coonelly, and ultimately Nutting himself.  You contradict yourself there.

I don't know enough about State College to comment with authority, but if the guys there were in their first season of pro ball, having leaped over the rookie leagues, I would think you could make a pretty good argument that they were there either to experience the competition or because they were better than whatever "talent" we had at the A level.  You might even wonder if they were there because we had added so many players in the rookie leagues that this was only chance to play.

It's frustrating enough for me with my generally positive and hopeful outlook to follow this trainwreck of what were my boyhood idols.  It must be excruciating for you with that fire in your belly.  I hope for all concerned that they can get this thing turned around quickly.  

Once again, gentlemanly character prevails without compromising intellectual insight and healthy (high blood pressure notwithstanding) debate.  Like Bay, I agree this is a very civil blog with respect for all.  You Pirate fans... I love ya, man!

Baywatch --

Thanks for trying to keep things civil here.  I've quit going to other sites because of the namecalling, language, and immature attitudes.  You're right...we've got a good core group here.  Let's hope I don't have to leave this one, too.  Keep that patrolman's cap on, please.

NuttingHostate - "Let's start from scratch."

How 'bout Lets' NOT start from scratch? I think you've made your point, and we've made ours ... If it's facts you want, you got 'em! The Pirates had a bad won-loss record in the minor leagues this year.

HORSE DEAD! You may have some good facts lined up for its continued beating, but stop it ... at this point, my cheap Wal-Mart skating shoes are more interesting.

(Love you, NuttingHostage :)

I think everyone is look at this whole duration of futility all wrong..

Finally - our PBC is excelling in something - futility!!

Next year will be year 17 of losing seasons..how dare the Cub call themselves lovable losers..who are bigger losers than the PBC and those of us pyschotic to not only follow them but still go plunk down ducats to watch them at PNC.  I don't know about the rest of you all but that is something I'll wear like a badge of honor.

But in terms of a little perspective, next year will be our 17th losing one.  I think of my grandfather who was 5 when the '27 yankees obliterated the bucs.  He didn't see another playoff appearance for 33 years, and there were no steeler or penguin playoffs to distract one back then.  So I can wait a few more years for it to get fixed - just fix it so it stays fixed is what I say.

@NuttingHostage

I agree there is not much in A on up in our minor league's at this time.  I am not a supporter of the regime in any way shape or form.  I have learned not to trust them for all that was said and done this year.  

With that in mind I will grant the others that a very slight improvement was completed.  If we added one player to any level. I would consider that a major improvement from what we had.  Does that make any level good?  NO WAY!  Lot's need to be completed and it will take more than 3 to 4 years to improve it.  Since we do not draft well, at least in the past and do not pick up undrafted possible players regularly we will be doomed to more failure.  Let's not forget getting some players from Latin America and other places as well.  It will take a little time.  Now next year I expect a lot more from this group to ensure we start getting possible players in he minors from all avenues.  I say possible because prospects are not easily attained and will cost more then this group will pay for.  Nor do we have anything to trade for them.

Unless we keep what is good now on the major league level and add through FA (not many and not expensive) we will have to live with the learning curve of these guys and what will replace them in the coming years.  Once we have something to trade, continue to draft well and sign youngters that may have a chance to contibute in the low minors we will be below 500 as a club. Will we ever make the Playoffs?  depends once we reach the point of having a contending club and we pay to keep most not just a small core of them will find out.  We could end up as a one year wonder and slip back again.

Just my thoughts on all this stuff.

Anyone watch and listen to PA in Dunlap interview? Not msany comments on it...

Well, Hostage, checking Bucs' roster as you suggested, I see 8 unsigned in 1-25 and 11 unsigned in 26-50. However this tells me nothing about money and where it went which was the point I was making about focus. In terms of signed vs. unsigned it looks like there was somewhat more focus on the top 25. (I'm not sure I'd even count Tanner Scheppers since apparently he was not able to pass his physical.) Anyhow, I'm not seeing where this shows the Bucs had most of their focus on the lower rounds.

Now, looking at the Brewers list, it is definitely true that their "unsigned" are all in the lower rounds, and that they signed everybody in the 1-25 range (and they had two first rounds comps and three 2nd round picks, none of which the Bucs had). Possibly making it something of an apples-to-oranges situation. But let's grant that on the surface your argument looks like it has some merit. But as the story goes, you can prove anything with statistics, or disprove anything. What I mean is that just telling me who got signed or not doesn't seem to mean much. Looking at the signing dates, I see the Brewers' guys, except their #1, all signed long before August, most of them in June. Meanwhile five of the Bucs' top 25 held out until August and two more until July. I don't know what this means other than, again, you may be making a dissimilar comparison.

I think a valid comparison, if it can be made, would have to look in-depth at these differences, as well as the money involved, and even go so far as to analyze what reasons went into the many more holdouts the Bucs had. Was it lowball offers? Greedy agents/players? What was the reason the Bucs had so many unsigned in the upper rounds? To make a blanket suggestion that there was a "focus" on low-$ rounds does not seem borne out when there are many unsigned in those rounds also; and can't really be validated without much more detail than comparing the "draft results" lists.

Matt Alexander - DR - "Just fix it so it stays fixed is what I say."

MA, you're preaching to the choir now, Buddy! I wish I had a nickel for every time I heard that thought ... way in the back of my mind ... this year: OK, so we break the losing streak, make it as a wild card, get 1992 close to going to the series, then ... BAM, back in the hole again ...

HOW MESSED UP WOULD THAT BE?

BREAKING NEWS

The Pirates have decided to hire Paul Maholm as their new pitching coach.  Since he was already Snell's personal pitching coach, the PIrates decided to save some money by giving Paul the official title and not hiring someone else.  No word yet on how Paul feels about coaching himself.  

"General manager Neal Huntington's meetings with the coaching staff -- some of whom had two-year contracts that included this season, some expiring after this season -- in the coming week. All are expected to be retained, but that is not firm."

Apparently, about as firm as a mountain of pudding.

BW - you enhanced and streamlined the point I was trying to make, well done.  That's what I've been saying all summer.  Would another 1997 season satisfy people?  That was a smoke and mirror season if ever there was one.  This year could have been a smoke and mirrors too...add a few free agent pitchers for 4 months, keep bay and nady and ride out their career years..then watch them both hitting .250 next year and wonder why we didn't trade them.  Like DK said over and over the last couple years..trade at high value!

Mad Turk - did I see a Pedro Alvarez comment?  Let me go get my stick so we can start batting that Pinata around again!  Has anyone heard him say yet that he's happy to be in this organization?  I haven't.  I did hear him say that refusal to honor his verbal agreement and asking for the grievance was his idea, not scott boras'.  Okay..still waiting for a reason not to hate him...anybody have one..anyone?

madturk2008 - "Anyone watch and listen to PA in Dunlap interview? Not many comments on it..."

Mad, I saw the interview ... I was tempted to think he acted sort of put out, and said the same things he was coached to say at his signing ...

But I'm still trying to cut him some slack, that he's still just a 21-year-old kid ... and that public speaking and camera presence isn't something everyone has.

Also, it may somewhat cultural ... there seems to be a guarded coolness and moxy that comes from kids raised on the street in New York ... and everyone's different, too.

One might compare him to Manny Ramirez and A-Rod because they came from Washington Heights, too ... but they're all different.

Yeah. I must say I was hoping for a less wooden response from PA, but, hey ...

BJM - that was a good one.  When I read the article about all the things Maholm had done with Snell this season I thought, wow that's great.  Maholm is turning into the leader of the staff.  If only the team had a member of the staff who could sit down with the pitchers both pre and post starts..go over video..talk about their plan of approach...nutrition..conditioning..if only there was a job like that....

Ohh wait -I know...a pitching coach!!   What the hell was Andrews doing the whole season other than telling Burnett to move his plant foot??

I am glad that Andrews was fired.  It was clear that outside of helping 2 or 3 guys-he did not have the answers to fix the problems. i hope we can get Perry Hill to be our next first base coach. He is well respected in the game.  As far as the pitching coach-how about Rich Petterson who was let go by the Mets during the year? I have a feeling DK will be very busy this off-season!!

Bill

Quite a day of posting--even if took all the repeating uglyken posts--Uglyken, don't worry, such things happen on the internet.

Had to go out and get new tire on my car and get back and wow.

Hey, my curveball is working good so I will happy to pitch tonight :)

I see the season is on hold--raining in Chicago so the Tigers and White Sox are delayed.

Baywatch--yeah I am kind of in denial that I either have to watch the Steelers or listen to cds all night tonight...

Madturk--seriously, the Asylum has quite the variety of meds available!!  And I truly think the best are the Asylum members and the blog themselves...In an awful month where my mantra has been "Xanax for breakfast, Wine for dinner!", many of my days have been made by everyone here.  The love and knowledge of baseball by all guys & gals alike, the poetry, the good wishes and prayers when one of us is down, and the almighty Jose Lind's Pants....everyone here is awesome and I will seriously miss all of this.  

And of course, hap caps off and a round of applause to the awesome DK!  (insert roaring crowd sound byte here)

Matt Alexander-DR "Okay..still waiting for a reason not to hate him...anybody have one..anyone?"

My guess is that if he produces at the level that he is projected to perform, then he may be able to avoid the hatred. It wouldn't be the first time that a highly touted Pittsburgh player has gotten of to a rocky start, and eventuallly gained the respect if not love of this city's sports fans.

Please pass that valium over here, its gonna be a long winter for the PBC Asylum wing.  They better load up on padded walls....

Can you have pizza with vailum?

Any word what PA is doing in the off season?  I know he's in FLA, but are there any other options after that?  Winter ball?

Pirata13--So right you are. This Asylum has to be the best place for true Bucs fans. Whether the comments are positive or negative, this community is strong medicine. I believe that someday (I can't predict when) we are going to get a team to togather that may even satisify Hostage. ;-)

@Matt Alexander-DR

I agree with you.  He never ever said anything about being a Pirate.  Had his nose up in the air and did not look like he wanted to answer any questions.  Basically what I got from the interview is that is wants to work hard and leave here ASAP!  Nothing in between will satisfy him.  Spouted the Boras lines and might have said something about that hand injury.  Was not real clear on that.

@Baywatch

Just 21 years old?  I know many many younger people who are much much more mature and have a sense to say something about they place they are.  Especially after getting everything he wanted in the contract.  He stills has a lot to prove to me and playing well for us is not going to erase his attitude.

@Pirata13

Yes we have all the meds of any type you would need here. The best one is the fellow bloggers here, they are the best therapy.  Putting on a hap cap evens out the thought process as well.

Bizrow - I seem to recall that the rosters for both the Arizona and Hawaii leagues are already full, so he won't be playing any winter ball unless it's in the dominican.  

Maybe he can go back to Vandy and take some post-graduate engineering thermodynamics courses or something.

Or better yet, take a class on how not to come off as a petulant little snot and actually be happy to have just been given 6 million dollars to play baseball!!

Sorry, $6.4 million..don't want Boras filing a grievance on me.

@Matt-Too early to hate him.  He may turn into both a very good player and a very good person.  We just don't know how a person will mature.  It is fine to be skeptical about him.  We do not, and may never, know what went on in the initial negociations.

@Bizrow

The Ariozona and Hawaii teams are full.  Unless someone is removed after instruction league he is done for the year.  Can you say see ya at spring training.  This is his pushiment for holding out like a little spoiled brat for another 300,000 and a major league contract.

@Baywatch

Looks like we may have another cap for the bloggers.  G-Man has the Hap Caps and you will have the Cop Caps.  Good luck!  

Looking back, I'd have to say that the Nady/Marte trade did exactly what it was intended to do for us.  How much did people pay attention to Nady after his first week or two (when he was named player of the week in the AL).  Looking at the stats of the two we "dumped" in that trade:

Marte 1-3, 5.40 ERA, 1.33 WHIP

Nady .268 BA, .320 OBP, 12 HR, 40 RBI - almost identical to what he did in 2003 and 2005 (SD), and 2006 (NYM).  Basically his time here from the deadlines of 2006-2008 he was a solid fielder and excellent hitter.  Look for him next year to repeat what he's done outside of Pittsburgh - including the injury bug.  I'm not wishing ill on him, but this was his only healthy year in the majors.

Considering Marte was going to be gone this year, Nady after next, I think we've done pretty well on that trade.  And once Tabata got into our system, all that head case stuff seemed to disappear.  Even he said he felt a lot less pressure and was enjoying being here.  Even if one or two of the pitchers we got there become average major league pitchers, and Tabata an average outfielder, we will have made out in that trade in the long run.

Yeah Bay, ruin the shoes instead of finding some shoestrings that work.  

Pirata, baseball season goes on all year round, it's only the games that stop.  We now have the serious business of righting the Pirate ship before the next hurricane season is on us.  

Hostage, if you haven't gone away for the day, you will find forums where more people agree with you, but fewer pay attention to or care about what you say.

All, I think this new season's surprises are just beginning.  From what I've seen of NH and FC they are too complex to predict.  For me the hardest thing they did was the Bay trade; it put my mind at odds with my heart.  I was so relieved when they (prematurely) announced that talks had broken off and Bay was going to remain.  

When it did go through, I told myself that it would be painful, but it would mean happiness down the road.  Then they decided to let Andy LaRoche learn at the big league level and that made him the scapegoat for the loss of Jason Bay.  That was the worst move they probably could have made.  I hope that the shellshock doesn't wind up destroying his career.

They did some good things, too.  Getting Mientkiewicz, Dumatrait, Yates and Gomez were outstanding moves.  The Nady trade was good.  So was getting Meek and arranging it so that he didn't have to go through what they put Andy LaRoche through.  Picking up Michaels was more in the above average class than outstanding.  Jury's still out on a lot of what they did -- but all in all it wasn't a bad year for a couple of rookies working with a mostly holdover staff from the Littlefield Debacle.  

Scouting and talent evaluation need to improve, so does instruction, especially at Indianapolis.  If someone offers an unbelievably ridiculously good deal for one of our core players, fine.  But otherwise, hands off.  

Guys who catch up with everything please be forgiving.  I said a lot of this this morning.

Bob Walk for pitching coach?  If he coaches half as well as as he talks, we will have 3-4 20 game winners.

madturk & MattA - Respectfully disagreeing with you on the Alvarez interview.  The posture had more to do with the camera angle (a journalist with a video camera, not a cameraman).  Look at the other non-PA-footage in that clip.  It's all pretty rough and shot upward.  And if you were mildly ambushed on your way into the first day of work, you'd probably give an awkward interview too.

Not saying he's going to be Mario-esque in any way, but that point's been made.  Mario was considered showing great disrespect (if not outright scorn) by not putting on the Pens' sweater when he was drafted.  But he came, he did what we expected, and now he's a legend.  Again, Pedro isn't going to be Mario in the infield, but give him some time.

JAL - you're right, he could mature.  I mean, look at how much better Barry Bonds and Manny Ramirez got at being resonsible adults as they grew older.  Nahh - I'll start hating him now so I'm really ready to boo when he gets up here in a few years.

I did want to give you some props though.  I think I was on here one day last month trying to blow up your argument that Zach Duke could be a serviceable major league pitcher.  He wasn't great the last 3 weeks but I think he was definitely 'serviceable' and he did log a ton of innings so looks like you may be right.  Looks like you were right.

A week ago I thought they had to fire Andrews, despite him being a stand-up and nice guy.  Then after reading DK's interview with Andrews and Maholm's comments about Snell and the mental prep, I thought that maybe the real problem with the starting pitching was mental (including the toughness to go through the off-season preparation) rather than mechanics.  I didn't know that one season is enough to be able to change that, especially after the previous coaching staff had lost them at the end of last season.

I can't fault the decision, though, because the one thing I have never seen before is how many games the Bucs were down 3 or more runs after one or two innings.  I haven't seen any statistics, but I would be surprised if that wasn't a record.  Add the number of walks (a Pirate record) to that as well as not pitching inside . . .

Anyway, I hope the new guy preaches "work fast, throw strikes, change speeds."

Maybe Jim Colburn's son is available? ;-)

@uglyken:

"Along those lines, maybe we should replace JR to save a few more $'s. We can hire Dirty Doug to be a player manager. sort of a 2 for 1 deal."

I like your thinking.  We'd have a new AC/DC Bucco tune:  Dirty Doug Done Dirt Cheap.

While we're all busy condemning Pedro for his attitude - which is a pretty big leap considering he's not done much yet other than be very careful about what he says, which may be prudent for a kid who hasn't played a minute in the organization so far - remember that the King of Attitude used to play here. Kid named Bonds. Nobody seemed to much mind his 'tude when we were winning. And even though I'm no fan of Bonds, it was Pirate management that refused to even consider making him an offer after '92, not Bonds who blew off the city. But that never stopped us from accusing him of hating us and our city all along and being a traitor, once he signed with the Giants.

So before we accuse Pedro of hating the Burgh and of counting the minutes until he hits FA, maybe we should all stop hyperventilating until Spring, at least. I'm sure if he launches 10 or so out of an assortment of ST ballparks, like a certain Brad Eldred did a couple years ago, we'll love him and anoint him just like we briefly did Brad (and somewhat longer did Barry). At least until his first slump at Altoona or Indy or wherever he's at next Spring, at which time we can all fulminate about him again.

"What we see depends mainly on what we look for." - John Lubbock

@Matt--Thank you for the props.  Yes, Duke did get better  He started 4 games in September and had an ERA of 2.81 for the month.  Went 25.2 innings--that averages to a bit over 6 innings a start.  Maholm's Sept ERA was 3.00--also 4 starts--27 innings-only 1.1 more than Duke.  Snell had 5 starts, 27 innings and 3.67 ERA.

@diehard

He may turn out to be a good player and I hope for our Bucco's he does.  He will not be here after he get's free agency.  I will bet on that. I have 2 reasons, 1. Boras or PA whoever gives him his speeches will make sure he gets into a major market.  2. We will not pay the high price he will ask for once free.  IF he ever speaks his own words and says anything about being a Pirate it would help.

Everyone points to Mario, at least he was highly touted as a player.  In Hockey that means more than in baseball. You could argue numbers but flame outs in baseball are higher than in Hockey.  The skills set is much more defined as well and can be predicted better than in baseball.

The maturity comes into play as well.  How can he seem so inmature with the education he is supposed to have.  Even Mario, more so Sid the Kid and a ton others in Pittsburgh and other places have compared to him. And at a much younger age as well.

I will give him more of a chance because we need him. I will not boo him or anyone else for that is not my style.  I hope he plays well and helps us get above 500 some day. If his attitude does not change and nothing possitive about being signed and playing comes from him I will not be upset when he leaves.

Andrews and Frazier, they may be nice guys and being a short time here one could argue their pro's or con's.  I say it is fine so long as someone comes in and does a better job.  Andrews has been here and worked with these guys before. If he coulod not get them to pitch then it is time to let someone else try.  If that fails then we know it'[s the pitcher and not the coach.  But these guys have shown they could pitch....  Frazier is a tough one, I did not see a lot of improvement with the outfielders or on running the bases.  Morgan sucks in the outfield other than having speed.  Pearce needs a lot of work in the outfield.  Nate is the only one that is decent. (Duffy of course is as well (smooth)).  So I say it was needed as well.  Okay Duffy haters do your thing but rememebr he is a goner and will not play for the Pirates. He will be traded at some point.

JHadar - "Yeah Bay, ruin the shoes instead of finding some shoestrings that work."

JHadar, JHadar, JHadar! I really love having you as a big brother! I mean, that sounds just like something Wally would tell The Beaver!

(plus, you got my back on my posts, lately!)

I'm 54 years old ... I ain't got time to go find good shoestrings for $15 Wal-Mart skate shoes. Of course, since IT IS WAL-MART, I considered taking the shoes back for a refund, putting that toward a $50 pair of New Balance ...

But they're pizza shoes too ... Who wants to screw up a pair of New Balance with dish water every day?

Minor Leaguer & madturk2008 - My very own patrolman cap! Gee, Thanks Wally!

@Cisco Kid

I care more for a player that is good and a decent person.

PA may be one all I am saying is we haven;t seen it yet.

Bonds was not and I was not upset when he left.  A lot of history with him and Bonilla during those times.

What about Bob Walk for the pitching coach?

I think if we're going to blow up the PBC on the field, and we already did, the announcers should be collateral damage...

@all, thanks for the update on PA and playing before spring, it just keeps getting better and better, don't it?

One other question, and I know its probably been thought of, let me see, we are going for a big bat this offseason?  Why?? We don't have enough.  Why?  We traded JBay and then Nady, and then let Pearce sit on his fanny for most of the year.  I know you can't count on September meaning anything, but didn't he have 4 dingers in pretty limited time (until Moss got hurt)?

I'm going to go now and take my lorizapan, Nurse Cratchett is calling.

Bay-ver -- LOL!  Don't you guys have any binder twine down in Texas?  Maybe the customers will see those shows and come through with a big tip.  Next time you're at Payless pick up a pair of tenny runners with velcro closers.  

Re: Pirates Prospects

{also know as:  "Help me, Obiwon Kenobe!  You're my only hope!"}

My Baseball America just arrived an hour ago in the mail.  It's as close to the Gospel According to Baseball as there is.  It is the one that listed Pedro #1 for this year's draft.

BA listed the top 20 prospects from each Minor League for 2008.

AAA--two leagues--40 prospects {not mixed together:  20 each league}

#2 International League--(Indianapolis)--Andrew McCutchen

#7 International League--(Indianapolis)--Neil Walker

#9 Pacific Coast League--(Las Vegas)--Andy LaRoche (for 1/2 season)

#14 International League--(Pawtucket)--Brandon Moss (for 1/2 season)

AA---three leagues--60 prospects

#12 Eastern League--(Altoona & Trenton)--Jose Tabata

High A--three leagues--60 prospects

no one from Pirates (Lynchburg)

Low A--four leagues--80 prospects

#18 New York/Penn League (State College)--Chase d'Arnaud

Rookie Leagues--4 teams--80 prospects

#20 Gulf Coast League (Bradenton)--Jarek Cunningham

The Buccos have only SEVEN prospects listed among top 320 minor league players at any level, and only THREE listed in the top half of prospects in each respective league.

This list also includes only TWO from this year's supposedly stellar draft (Chase d'Arnaud and Jarek Cunningham).  This year's draftees would normally be competing against others from that same draft.  The Bradenton Pirates finished as the only Pirate minor league team with a winning record (1st in their division--lost in one game playoff) but had only the 20th ranked player in the league.

SEVEN prospects rated as in their league's top 20.  Even if you add Pedro as an 8th prospect, THIS IS SCARY TO ME!!

Mad Turk - nice try - trying to lure me out and onto my favorite soap box: the anti-chris duffy one, but I'm not falling for it.  With all the troubles in the world I go to sleep every night with one calming thought: chris duffy will never ever play for the pirates again..thank you lord.

Whoever made the comment about Pearce getting some dingers, I say well said.  So Pearce may not have good "command of the strike zone".  I hope to God he never has andy laroche's 'strike zone control'.  All the man has done is excel at every level after a little time to get settled in.  I hope he gets a legit shot at RF next spring.  And if not there, 1B after Laroche the elder gets out to his usual .113 tear through april and may.  

I've got it - I know how we can afford to keep the Buck Commander, pay him a salary the PBC can live with and get his at his most productive: give him a Roger Clemens contract.  No no, not hgh injections for his wife..unless I'm misremembering that.

I mean tell the Buck Commander he doesn't need to show up for work till Mid June, and we'll only pay him for 4 months work.  He couldln't turn that down..2 more months of hunting.

In quickly running through the posts here on Jeff Andrews' hook, I noticed one reference to the Ray Miller pitchng mantra of "work fast, change speeds, throw strikes," but failed to notice if anyone suggested Ray himself for the Pirates job.

If he's available and willing to coach, I suspect Jim Leyland will snatch Miller up for his pitching coach vacancy. After all, just like Dave Dombroski beat Dave Littlefield to the punch in re-signing Leyland, I'm sure they'd beat us to the best available candidate.

Whoever suggested Bob Walk, forget it ... he's too close to the team. If we are going to stay in-house, I like Teke as a much better option.

We need to go outside the organization. In that vein, I nominate former pitcher and current Reds broadcast analyst Jeff Brantley for the job.

A few weeks back when Craig Hansen was having one of his typical game-on-the-line meltdowns in Cincinnati, I was watching the Reds telecast because (surprise!) the Pirates weren't televising that day game. It took Brantley two minutes to spot the mechanical flaws in both Hansen's delivery and follow-through that result in absolutely no command, and JB broke it down in slo-mo for the viewer to see and understand. It was great analysis.

Of course, the two subsequent times I saw Hansen pitch after that game-losing debacle, I still saw the same flaws Brantley pointed out, meaning they had likely not been spotted or addressed by our pitching coach.

I have followed Brantley closely through the years, first as a pitcher and then as analyst for ESPN and now the Reds. He knows how to pitch and how to both explain and teach the art. He was a guy who parlayed an average arm into a pretty good major league career by learning how to pitch as opposed to how to throw, and his analyses these past few years have been outstanding and on the money.

If we are really going to change the PBC culture, bring in someone like Brantley, if he's even interested, toward that end. Now he may have some baggage I'm not aware of, which would explain why the Reds haven't tapped him themselves, but if not, what a coup it could be to snatch a guy out of a division rival's broadcast booth and make him an integral part of the coaching staff.

And at worst, we have absolutely nothing to lose.

mlbtraderumors speculates today on who the Bucs might consider given NH's comments to DK today wrt getting involved somewhat in the free agent market this off-season. Given what is speculated you may want to hold off on reading this until you have digested your lunch/dinner.

the link: www.mlbtraderumors.com/.../pirates-may-dab.html

Pirates up, batter gets on with a hit, stops at first, Frazier gets up close to the runner and gives him a hug around the shoulders and tells him to run to second on a hit, and then he does it again on EVERY pitch and EVERY step off by the pitcher. And they still screw up running the bases! Why does the first base coach have to tell major league ballplayers what to do on every pitch? These guys have probably been playing baseball since they were little kids; surely they know something about running the bases. It probably didn't help that many times as they shared their little strategy sessions with the first baseman that was standing right there along side them. I cannot see how any of the coaches or the manager, or even the General manager can keep their jobs, there should have been a mass resignation letter and much apologizing and great shame shared by all involved.

Is it safe to look around with all these bullets flying?I gotta admit I'm waiting till things cool down out here in bloggersville

Nutting...,

I really do not understand your following the pittsburgh Pirates.  I glad you do, but I can not fugure out how anybody so upset with anything would even begin to think about that thing let alone be a fan of it.

We all have our likes and dislikes, but your disliking of the team does not sound like someone just upset with a bad manager or such it sounds like you really do not like this team or anyone with it.

May I suggest find one thing that is O.K. with the organization and write about that.  We all know the problems with this organization and talk openly about those problems, but with ideas and hope for a better tomorrow.  Man, this is the greatest game going, enjoy it.

JAL, yes I did send it to Bob, have not checked for a return yet.   thanks for your comment.

Wow, lots of catching up to do....

Cisco - You may have a point. - Perhaps the Bucs did not initially plan to focus their amateuer draft budget at the lower end picks of the draft...35 - through 50. - But that was the end result. - So one way or another, Neal blew it. - The Bucs loaded up on fewer picks and lower quality picks overall than other clubs, particularly two in their same division. - Cubs and Brewers. - End of the day, the results are the results and they are not good.

Matt the Scatt - Thanks for the props on the avatar. - I look forward to the day I can change it though. - Criteria in evaluating Neil? - One, his actions, or lack thereof to improve a last place club last winter. - Failed miserably. Two, his actions to improve a club that was hovering just below .500 at the half way point? - Failed. - He bailed. Three the outlook following his trades. - Failed. - The club is now further from fielding a winner than it has been in several years.

Mad Turk - great points. - End of the day, for this club to get better it has to do something better than their competitors. - There is no one road. - They could spend a lot of money on free agents like the Yankees. - That is one way, and not a realistic way. They could load up on the draft. - They didn't do that, the Cubs and Brewers, two clubs in their own division invested better in the draft in terms of overall quantity and quality. They could load up on Latin American amateur free agents. - They didn't do that either. - Their Latin American budget, though increased by 50%, still lags other MLB teams as DK reported a week or two ago. - There are lots of ways to get there, but to get there they have to out do the competition in something and unfortunately they don't. - Bob Nutting comprises every singled opportunity for this club to improve by underfunding every aspect of the business. You can't succeed and beat your competition if you don't do a single thing better than they do.

Baywatch - you come across as a wonderful dude with the calm and warmth of Pops himself. - Keep it up.

JHadar

- I'm not looking for perfection. - I'd be happy with a legitimate effort to improve the club to start, and I'd support these guys. - I haven't seen it yet.

- Morgan, still made baserunning errors. - Multiple errors. - Yes his average improved, I'll concede that, but lets be cautious with the annointing oil. - Remember Chris Duffy and Tike Redman. - They performed even better in longer trials but still ultimately failed.

- Thanks for the invitation to find another forum, but I am beginning to like this one. ;-)

All - what about Rick Peterson to replace Andrews?

To finally answer the question from way, way up there about having a feel for this coming: I was told about two or three weeks ago that the default position was that all of the coaches would stay, and I relayed that to the readers in print. A similar question on that topic earlier this week got more of a pause, but it came with a similar response.

With Neal Huntington spending much of his September on the road with the major league team, he got to spend more time with the people inside that operation, no doubt had a chance to witness more things first-hand. My understanding is that everything really crystallized in San Diego after many, many meetings, including with John Russell.

Sorry for the delay. One hour of sleep on the overnight flight, followed by one of those awful four-hour afternoon naps just now.

Nutting -- not an invitation to go away by any means, but an observation for you to ponder.  I for one enjoying having you around.  You say a lot of things I agree with, but put them so strongly that I have to pause and think about what you really said.  

Also, saying Morgan improved hardly counts as annointing him.  And  they did fire the baserunning coach today.  Strawmen are easy to knock down.

DK -- thanks for the info.  I'm glad that as much thought as you report went into the decisions.  Although I'm fan with my passions and my heart, as a businessman who's been through the process of letting someone go, I really appreciate that a great deal more went into the process than a cursory review of the stats, or a kowtowing to fan opinion.  I may not agree with all of Huntington's decisions -- but I gain respect knowing that he wouldn't fire a man of good character over poor performance without thoroughly informing himself and checking his observations with others (not necessarily in that order.)  

Gibmente - It's BayDude! (I know I look like Pops, but I'm trying to come up with a Condorman type uniform) ... Where you been so long?

I like your Brantley idea ... anything to get him out of the booth ... ah, just kidding, I don't mind him so much. Seems like he goes a little overboard with making cutesy out of the Southern (sorry, I had to capitalize it here, yinz) accent.

But I'm NOT willing to hire Mark Grace for any job ... he's just too annoying ... and Walk, while he may be knowledgeable, would probably get on everybody's nerves ... doesn't he already when he jumps on his horses and rides them into the ground?

You know, at first I was a little opposed to hiring Leo Mazzone, but I read a wikipedia article on him and he's only 60. I thought he was about 70. And I'm not sure he failed at Baltimore so much as his buddy, Perlazzo got fired.

I suspect that when we get a new pitching coach we'll all be heading for Google.

Accidentally posted to morning links:

Worst of guy in America would be a Pirate fan from Galveston who drives an SUV, makes his living importing milk from China and has his retirement funds in real estate futures.

Howdy doody everyone.

My, my. Already two coaches' blood in the water. And a lot off vitriol on the forum, today.

The following comment is less something well considered, than something more along the line of, "Let's just throw this at the wall and see if it'll stick." (And further justification for Gene Collier's assertion that most of the blog stuff about the Pirates is garbage.)

But here goes...

Could one possibility for dumping Frazier be that the Regime  wanted to clear a space for someone who can serve as a ready-to-go candidate to replace JR? If the baserunning and corner outfielder play had been great, Frazier might still be around. But since it wasn't, he became expendable. And Plan B (getting someone else in the dugout ready to replace JR), now has a foot up.

I'm not even a conspiracy theorist. But it's going to be a long winter. When it comes to throwing out food for thought, why not go for the gusto???

@JHadar--You had to know that post would bring a song :)

www.youtube.com/watch

NuH

saying we only signed low choices compared to Cubs, Brewers, etc only tells part of the story, as it may not be an apples-to-apples scenario. Remember, we did draft a number of low round draftees (Wes Freeman, Q Miler, etc) that were considered unsignable as they had high bonus demands, were committed to college, etc; however, we did end up signing a number of these players. So you must give credit for these lower round selections to NH, and not count them as a negative.

for more details, see the excellent draft update from Wilbur Miller at the link below. And for those wanting to cry over spilled milk, he had done the same for the 2005, 2006, and 2007 draft classes.

the link: users.rcn.com/.../2008draft.htm

@JL--That is certainly possible--although that would work at other coaching positions too.  Isn't the manager in waiting usually the bench coach?

I am tending to dismiss the idea that Frazier was fired chiefly because of dissatisfaction with outfield play, although it's certainly possible I'm wrong. The starting (as in April) outfielders were Nate, Bay and Nady with Michaels as Huntington's hand-picked backup. We've had debate about the skills of some of these but, overall, they seemed pretty acceptable. Post trade, Moss, Pearce and Morgan were brought up. Each of them has lots of room to improve. But could their play in only the last two months been enough to sink the coach?

JAL -  Isn't the manager in waiting usually the bench coach?

How about Mientkiewicz for player-(bench) coach?

Forgot to add this to my last post. If the August-September play of Moss, Morgan and Pearce was enough to get Frazier fired, then the guy coaching Andy LaRoche should be executed.

JAL,

"Isn't the manager in waiting usually the bench coach?"

For starters, I'm not sure how far I want to take my own silly speculation. But to address your point, yes and no. Dale Sveum  was the 3rd base coach when he took over for Yost (though he had experience as a bench coach, too.) And EVEN IF what I'm talking about was a consideration of the Regime, they still would have to clear space by removing the most expendable candidate, which in this case looked to be Frazier, not Gary Varsho.

Anyway, who knows what the Regime is thinking.

JHadar,

Don't know if you're serious or not, but I sincerely think that's a GREAT idea.

G-Man,

I've always been meaning to ask you: how do you like the LaRoche bros????

(No, you cannot have back your HapCap. It's mine, and I'm not letting go!)

:P

JHadar -

>>Isn't the manager in waiting usually the bench coach?<<

I used to think that. But the recent firing of Ned Yost was accompanied by the move of bench coach Ted Simmons to a off field office job. I really have never paid close attention to the bench coaches but I guess it might be perceived that the bench coach is buddies with the manager, the guy who hired/recommended him.

>>How about Mientkiewicz for player-(bench) coach?<<

JL and JHadar -

While I like the idea, I wonder if that's even permissable under MLB baseball and/or union rules. Based on the less than brotherly relationship between those entities, it would almost seem like a conflict of interest.

“The best laid schemes o’ mice an’ men / Gang aft a-gley.”--Robert Burns

Building a winning team can be done several ways, but no way sure.  The team playing the last game of the regular season as I write this illustrates that best intentions do always work.  The Tigers made several major moves last off-season and were predicted to be the team to beat in the AL central.  They finished last.  

To me, the best way to build a winner is first to honestly analyze what you have and then determine when you want to win--next year, 3 years.  Now you take the analysis and figure out what you need.  Then you get what you need.  Look at each position--on the team--example--is Doumit the catcher for the next 2-3-4 years and is he a good enough catcher for a winning team?  If so then no need to consider catchers.  Go through each position--what do we have-what do we need-how can we get what we need.  If you convinced that McCutchen is going to a top flight MLB outfielder by 2010 then don't spend on a short term fix.  It is not an easy job to do and, as with the Tigers, what everyone sees as the best move may not work.  

JHadar--I like the idea of DD as player-bench coach

G-man--The Brewers did go in a different direction.  Also, the bench coach usually advances with in=season firing.  Post season firing usually results going to the list of recycled managers.

JL -

Re LaRoche's: I know you were joking, but let me say this. In spite of how it may seem, I don't bear any ill will toward them as people. With Andy, I am annoyed with the regime for clearly giving him a scholarship when they go on public record as saying "no scholarships." That's not Andy's fault. I do think his poor showing should have cause him to be sent down. But, it was September and AAA was over. So, keep him but let him sit on the bench more.

As for Adam, I was a big supporter when he first came here. And I don't think for a minute he's dogging it every April-May on purpose. But this is his pattern for years and it's just not acceptable performance for someone who expects a raise in arbitration. Furtheer, I was really cheesed by his poor choice in commenting to DK about what he was not willing to do in teh way of extra work, considering he had just finished stating he did not know why he's like that in spring. Even if he was joking, it was a dumb think to say to the press and it steamed me and still does.

G-Man,

Excellent point.

Besides, as I think about it --and NH said as much the other day-- player to player relationships are sometimes better than coach-to-player ones. And Doug has all the credibility in the world with the rest of the team, right now. Wouldn't want to compromise that by making him wear a "management hat" at the same time. His day as a coach or manager will come soon enough. Let him be a full-time "senior" player, now.

G-Man--I don't know what the rules are but wasn't Pete Rose a player and manager at the same time?

G-Man,

I knew that you'd realize I was joking, and I couldn't resist having fun. I respect --and agree-- with your valid points, too. I have to admit that Adam's remarks to Dejan didn't quite rub me quite as wrongly as they did you. (I took them to mean that "he didn't think redoubling his work through the winter was going to be the fix: he sees his issues as mental, not mechanical.)  But to play devil's advocate to what he said:

A) One way to overcome his mental bugaboos JUST MIGHT be mindless repetition, and B) even if he believed in what he said, he might have surmised that frustrated fans didn't want to hear that  he wasn't going to do anything different to address his issues.

So I am in no way going to try and tell you that your take is wrong.

@BuccoNation; Being a little hard aren't we? If Andrews was never any good, why would they have hired him in the first place? He just didn't have much to work with and had probably never had a worse staff even in the minors.

Firing Frasier? I really don't understand that one....But I guess that's why you have people in management to compare what he did versus other coaches in the league.

Change is necessary for success!

Hey,

Isn't it time for the first pitch???

Oh...........what a bummer............

One point that seems to be ignored.We still have most of the same scouts.If we cannot evaluate talent then we might as well throw darts at a dartboard.We need to talk to people on other teams about coming on board.I know there will few takers nonetheless keeping the same scouts is ludicrous. I also agree we need to sign more draft picks.

Maz--that is a good point that has been ignored.

Maz,

I  agree. Scouting in baseball may be a crapshoot. But ours have can't shoot. They only cr_p.  In addition to physical talent --perhaps even more important than talent-- we need to identify young athletes, who, like Paul Maholm, are driven to be the best.

I agree too--scouting is important to find the best.

If you are all serious about Douggy managing,  he needs to go manage in the minors for a few years first,  and pay his dues.  There are plenty of accomplished minor league managers who would be a better choice than Douggy at this time.  

The silly notion of hiring him now would be another disaster in the long line of bad Pirates decisions.

Anybody plan on going to Bradenton next Spring?  

DK, you are exempt from that question.

G-Man - "If the August-September play of Moss, Morgan and Pearce was enough to get Frazier fired, then the guy coaching Andy LaRoche should be executed."

Take him out back and shoot him ... better yet, pirata13 is waiting in the wings with a wet noodle!

Good God.  The Tigers bullpen are arsonists like the Mets Bullpen.  

I feel bad for Andrews, who seemed like a standup guy and that the pitching staff was starting to turn the corner after a hideous first 3/4 of the season.  

Maybe I'm too close to NYC, but I'd spend whatever needed to get Ron Guidry in here as pitching coach.  You see with Karstens and Olie (mentally) how they approach the game, and I think someone of his ilk is the right choice.  I like Rick Peterson, and if anything, he was vindicated from the Mets 2007 collapse by the Mets 2008 collapse.   You could argue that Peterson helped Ollie Perez get back on track, but Peterson supposedly fought with Kazmir and then essentially Kasmir was traded for Victor Zambrano, who Peterson felt he could fix in tem minutes.  

Maybe in 20 minutes Peterson can fix Gorzo?

Great discussions today.  Read you all tomorrow.

@G-Man wrote re: Pirates fire pitching, first base coaches

on Sep 29, 2008 6:30 PM

Forgot to add this to my last post. If the August-September play of Moss, Morgan and Pearce was enough to get Frazier fired, then the guy coaching Andy LaRoche should be executed.

And what form of capital punishment do you propose?

@mazfromiowa

We could be better dart throwers than the scouts that pick the players.  Especially in a bar with several beers of drnk of choice on hand.

JAL -

Re Pete Rose as player-manager: I kind of had that thought, too, but wasn't sure. I Googled him and see that he was traded back to the Reds in 1984 and became player-manager until he was dropped from the 40 man roster in November, 1986 when he unofficially retired. Wikipedia says he was the last but offerend nothing as to whether the CBA allows it these days. So, I guess it might be possible for DD to do "Doube Duty" (another DD).

Cave,

We've moved on from pining for Doug to manage. But but before we had, the distinction was for Doug to be PLAYER/manager.

Cave -

Good point about DD needing to pay some dues/gain experience managing in the minors first. All one has to do is think back to Eddy Olczyk of the Penguins to see how it can go with no prior experience.

Baywatch -

I would not wish Pirata13's wet noodle on anyone. It even strikes fear in my own heart. And, too, there are those pointy shoes (not the ballet slippers) she told us about.

The thing about Doug right now, is the cred he brings when he pulls Ian Snell or Nyjer Morgan aside. He's out there himself, giving 110%, and doing it well. No matter how much the players may have heard about JR catching a Nolan Ryan no hitter, or Gary Varsho's days playing with the last Bucco team to ever have a winning season, it ain't the same as hearing it from Doug.

However, we don't need to make Doug a "player/bench coach." He already IS. We have the best of both worlds keeping him right where he is. He's a player, who already takes it upon him self to coach the young'uns.  

In short:

RE-SIGN DOUG MIENTKIEWICZ!!!

Yes, Doug obviously had a huge impact on Snell. And he helped Morgan become one of the top 5th OFs in MLB.

Yessir, we don't achieve that 67-95 without that key veteran leadership.

FF - ???  

I thought Doug's impact was most felt on Doumit and on the general attitude of guys on the field.  Did you notice the poll the other day?  Eleven players of the 18 who were the Bucs all season named him team leader.  Runner up was Adam LaRoche -- a surprise to me.  

And though your last is probably meant cynically, it's true, we're probably 60-102 without him.  He's one of the few pieces on this team that's actually in place.  He's not a starter because age has taken some of his power, but he's a leader and a leader of the sort this team needs.

ForbesFielder,

Go take care of your own inadequacies, then get back to us when you actually have something to contribute to this forum.

JHadar,

All good points. Especially, "...we're probably 60-102 without him."

And that's being optomistic. There were several times when this team could have tanked and practically lost ALL their games down the stretch. Doug wouldn't let it happen. Even the losses, like the two walkoffs in Milwaukee --we pushed the Brewers to the limit. I'll take efforts like that over just mailing it in any day.

Doug M. is a winner. The diametric opposite of FF.

JL -- I wonder if Doug's example of taking an interest in the club as a whole is what inspired Maholm to get on Snell about diet exercise and proper conditioning.  

FF -- Didn't mean to be unkind, and I do know that baseball is enough of an individual sport that a team of talented blowhards (see Bonds, Barry; Cobb, Tyrus; Yankees -- Steinbrenner Era) could win more games than a team of cohesive scrappers. But when talent is equal the cohesive Bunch will beat the blowhards every time.  In fact when the talent is merely close, give me the cohesive team.

That's what Mientkiewicz brings to this team.  He's cut in the mold that goes back to guys like Wee Willie Keeler, Casey Stengle, Ducky Medwick, Sparky Anderson, our own Bill Virdon and hundreds of others you've probablhy never heard of who made a career out of grit and hustle and outplaying guys who had more talent.  

If you want to know what Doug Like find a scratchy old recording of Lou Gherig's farewell speech at Yankee Stadium.

Hey, JL, don't insult me. Learn how to handle disagreement. That's what discussion forums are about..

It's nice that the players see him as a leader, but they're players on a 97 loss team. Where are the results?

FF -- One way to avoid getting insulted is not to go poking sticks in a wasps nest.   Your response wasn't disagreement, it was to put it mildly designed to provoke, and you succeeded.  

@JL be nice :)

Doug M. has the ring and maybe still has the ball from 2004.

I may be seeing through black-and-gold glasses, but the major difference between the 2007 Devil Rays and 2008 Rays was pitching.  Do we have a Crawford, Longoria, or Pena?  Not quite (although a full year of Ad. LaRoche could equal Pena).  However, take out 4 players from the Devil Rays (Kasmir too) and the pirates match them and man for man our bullpen is better.  

To see 12 to 15 wins improvement isn't out of the realm.  Get one quality bat (I'm president of the Pirate Hank Blaylock fan club) and we are better than the Astros and whatever Carcass the Brewers are left with after free agency.  

Hadar, maybe you could just discuss the issues rather than trying to tell everyone how to act.

This "veteran leadership" crap has been going for all 16 years of the streak. Ed Sprague, Terry Mulholland, Jose Mesa, Sean Casey, etc....they're all going to be a positive influence. Yet the losing continues and nothing gets better. Focus on getting players first, worry about "leaders" later. If Mientkiewicz is so valuable, why were the Pirates his only option for '08?

FF,

Don't lecture on what this forum is about. There are plenty of other forums out there for people like you who need to prove something to themselves.  You're a Johnny One-Note whose every comment is to poke your finger in someone else's eye, especially Doug Mientkiewicz'. This PBC Blog is something special with first-rate contributors. I happen to disagree with many a comment, but have high regard the posters. Can't say the same for you. You need to feel better about yourself so that you no longer have the need to diminish what few good things the Pirates did have this year.

Good luck. You'll need it.

And from Wee Willie's era we have the scrappy player and manager who took over a team that went 48 and 88 finishing 8th, went 84 and 59 finishing 2nd the next year and then 106 and 47 the next year finishing 1st--he went directly from playing to managing-different era but still quite an achievement from John McGraw--the years were 1902, 03, and 04 but he went to win pennants into the 1920s.  

Not saying Mientkiewicz would do that, but he is in that mold.  

A leader gets more out players than their talent would suggest but the best leader can't turn a lack of talent into talent.

Pointless to guess at what the record would have been without him on the team or what it would have been if the trades had not been done.  

Yes, the team lost 95 games but three team lost more.  

Thanks, Stan.

I guess I feel protective towards Doug, and even more protective towards this forum. The best defense is a good offense when it comes to those who wish to tear down.

FF,

I understand your frustration.  I do.  However, I believe DM is different because he practices what he preaches and has talent.  The only person you mentioned that wasn't at the end of the line as a Pirate was Casey, and he was injured though a large part of his tenure.  I think DM would continue to be a great addition with about 300 abs next year with a great defensive utility role that he provided in 2008.

.  Not trading Wilson, an above-average shortstop, would be helpful as well.  

Fall develops spring optimism.  The Rays proved that.