Morning links: Some CC leftovers

I know by now I am beating a dead horse but A major leaguer should make that play. I dont agree with changing it after the game becauser the other team is whining, But I bet we would be whining too if Karstens game against Arizona worked out the same way.

Did I actually read where Andy LaRoche was reprimanded for loafing and a rival scout said he was lethargic? WItht he way he has played since arriving here the least he could do was bust his azz and shoe some hustle. He should have been snet down the minute it happened and recalled after a week or two in the minors. This team has quit and there is no way to sugarcoat it, they did lose 2 very important pieces but they are still a major league club and they are a completre joke now. Think about next year, there is no new help  coming nad we might be subtracting Doug, Michaels, and possibly Wilson. Next year coud very well be 110 losses if they pitch anything resembling this year. I think Coonely was a bad hire as the President of baseball oerations. He was Seligs stooge and had no prior G.M. experience and obviously had a caustic relationship with the sports most powerful agent. I also thinmk keeping the majority of the scouts from the prior regime was insane. All yuou had to do was look at their results. My feeling is that as long as Nuttig remains the owner we are doomed to mediocrity at best and what you see now at worst. (Oh I forgot we have "Professional sports finest front office")    

Adam LaRoche has the speed of a turtle; whereas, Andy LaRoche has the speed of a tortoise. Andy LaRoche is a BELOW average runner, especially in terms of getting from home to first. (I have heard that most scouts measure Adam's speed with an hour glass.)

Another thread mentioned the Brewers rather boorish behavior of pulling out their jerseys the moment the game ends.  I thought it was kinda juvenile for CC & Fielder to mock a no-hitter celebration after the last out.  Was it that obvious?  Guess I'm a touchy Pirate fan.  

The hit or no hit thing is ridiculous. The official scorer ruled it a hit so let it stand as scored.

Question that should be asked of Boras: why even be on the phone if it was after midnight and the contract hadn't been accepted by Alvarez? Shouldn't he have terminated the call at the stroke of midnight or voiced aloud to Huntington that since it was after midnight that the deadline was not met (I'm sure he records all phone calls)? It seems to me that he set this scenario up this way on purpose.

I'm looking forward to all of those September call ups. Yeah, right. I've hardly been watching as it is. Who wants to watch a AAA team play against major league teams? It's a waste of time given how pathetic the performance is. Besides, the new TV season is starting, and FSN is only going to broadcast 13 of the final 26 games.

Funny quote from Huntington on the Pirates website pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/index.jsp in the "Young Pirates auditioning for the future" article. He says they're not satisfied to win 81 games. Dude, your team is going to be lucky to win 61 games. This team is very far from breaking .500 so why is he bringing it up? Also, if they want to take the best 25, why did they have some of the players on the roster when spring training was finished this year? I don't trust anything he has to say.

Andy LaRoche ... he probably isn't lazy, he's probably just not very good.

Let's see how long this current losing streak can last. The 13 game streak in 2006 was totally embarrassing. Maybe they can extend this one even longer.

I'm wondering if anyone here has seen the 1979 movie All That Jazz? www.imdb.com/.../tt0078754

Within it is a comedy routine about the Stages of Death: Anger, Denial, Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance.

For your entertainment ladies and gentleman, I have decided to apply this to the Pirates losing situation........

Anger: This F#$%^#* team sucks!!!!!

Denial: Sixteen losing seasons in a row... this really can't be happening to us can it?

Bargaining: Pleeeeease God!!!!  Let the Pirates win in 2009 to avoid setting the all time losing record!!

Depression: *Sigh* It's a foregone conclusion :(

And finally, the stage that I am at.........       I ACCEEEEEEEEEPT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I listened to Rocco's post game denial of reality today, which he shut down not long after getting blasted by the callers' switchboard. Why deny this reality? Let's embrace it!!!! Let's ACCEPT it!!! Just think for a moment.... if the Pirates can do the deed in Cincy next series, we'll tie that 13 gamer from 06'. But why stop there? With enough (lack of) effort, the Pirates could conceiveably shatter the Orioles 21 game start in 1988 and ended up at a whopping 36 in row! Now wouldn't that be a way to cap off tying the longest season losing streak in professional sports?

 The Brewers have been doing the "pull the jersey out as son as the game ends" for awhile now. I am developing a very real dislike for them (maybe it is envy since they are a smaller market than us and they dumped their asinine owner and got a new guy oin who isn't afraid to spend money to make money. They are "everything we should be and are not". Tell Neil H htat start striving for just being normally bad before he starts talking about .500 not being acceptable.  

I also humbly present the 2008 Unofficial Pittsburgh Pirates version of Take Me Out To The Ballgame:

Take me out to the ballgame,

But where the hell is the crowd?

Twelve bucks for peanuts and crackerjack,

I don't think that they'll ever come back .

Cause it's lose, lose, lose for the Pirates,

And if they win, it's a shame.

Cause it's one, two, three...........sixteen years they're out

Of the ol' ball game!

like I said on the other thread ...we have had 15-20 years of totally wasted drafts and no signings in Latin America and no team can survive that.

only time will tell if NH has what it takes...I believe he does

Am I the only one who thinks Ned Yost was way over the top by saying that goofy thing: "That was my first no-hitter. I could have told my grandkids about it."

I think it was a hit. I saw it live, and I saw the replay a couple of times. But MAINLY my take is this: If you transfer that play to a regular game, where hits have already been had by the Pirates, do they call that a hit. I get a big, quick confident YES in my conscience on that one.

Moreover, to me, an official scorer where stop being an official scorer on the day he calls that an error just because some guy is twirling a no-hitter.

I don't feel so bad, now, either after having seen the PG poll, showing purt near down the middle, with those feeling it was an error in the slight majority.

For those of you who're sick and tired of hearing about the "hit",

TOO BAD!!! Here's some more!

Well, thanks for the video link, Dejan. Maybe I'm guilty of only seeing what I want to see, but when I watch the replay posted above, I see:

A) Sabathia failing to pick up a ball slowing down so much it's about to stop,

B) him possibly looking and straightening up before he actually fields it,

3) and (most agregiously) both his hand and body are twisted away from the oncoming (though soon to stop) ball. If he were Jack Wilson I'd pardon taking this shortcut. But he ain't Jack Wilson. Surely pitchers know how to properly field a ball.

Sorry, but his esteemed career, notwithstanding, I reject Webb's rationalizing that to make this play required a beyond-ordinary effort.

If he didn't pitch so well the rest of the game, Yost should probably have had him doing windsprints for the sloppy fundamentals.

RESIGN DOUG MIENTKIEWICZ!!!!!

If this game is changed to a no-no, the L10 will be felt even harder. When is this team going to start winning, Dejan, please tell me when? It hurts when Pirates game announcers start bashing the team, saying things like "... we'll have to wait until 2010, 2011 to see if this can be a .500 ball club." Another three years! I can't wait another three years! Just give the team a little more cash, and just see what the does for them... rant over.

Love the PBC blog. Very nicely done by all its contributors. For those of you that wanna see a blog from a true, crazy Pittsburgh fan, check mine out at MLBlogs.com!

theburghblues.mlblogs.com

Hey Burgh Blues,

Just checked out your blog. Thanks for becoming a Bucco fan. Anyone who sticks with the Bucs is the real deal. Just one question (re your bio):

You're 16, yet you rank women AFTER baseball? Very good priorities! But at your age, how long can this last?

Keep on bloggin'!

I guess I'm by myself, right now.

Hey gang, see the article by Alan Robinson? Huntington is brow-beating the players.

"“We do this to win. We play to win. We don’t accept losing,” Huntington said. “We don’t tolerate losing."

"You get into a stretch like this and it’s ‘Oh, it’s just like it was in the past,”’ Huntington said. “Well, in our minds, it isn’t. "

(Funny, management is managing just like management in the past has.)

“The days of scholarship are over.”, he continues.

Then finally, Robinson quotes him making the following possible mea culpa (and quite cryptic) comment: "“If we’ve made a mistake as a front office and have given someone a contract that doesn’t (deserve it) … it means we’ve penalized the team by holding somebody onto the team. You have to take the best 25 and keep working hard.”

DEJAN! Was that a meaningless hypothetical? Or was he referring to someone?? Ian Snell? Freddy Sanchez?

Matt Morris wasn't on his watch, so the "we" wouldn't be appropriate in that case.

sports.yahoo.com/.../news;_ylt=A0WTWbn3uLtIgT8B6gKFCLcF

Yes. Re-sign Doug-that cat has the spirit which no other Buc has-I LOVE his all-out play, bigtime. I will tell you who is done here in the 'burgh...I saw him avoid being hit at first base with a throw from the catcher a month or so ago...when everyone knows that you WANT to be hit so you can be safe at first. That did it for me with this guy. He cannot throw at all (probably still a bad shoulder) and is a poor fielder as major league filelders go.

Freddie Sanchez. He is a poor player now and forgettable.

I am ready to gut this whole team except Jon Russell, Ryan (we'll lose him soon soon so we can shore up our future again) Nate and Doug. That's all that is major league worthy. Adam LaRoche is about a poor a baserunner as I have ever seen and I am weary of seeing Jack Wilson foul up bunts.

Lloyd McCelndon said the most powerful words I have ever heard anyone say about this organization..."I knew w could never do what we wanted to do when they sent off Aramis Ramirez." That tells it all, and has for 16 years.

I do not see any hope with this current roster. Except for Michaels, the starting 7 are those that will be here in April. Maybe add a McCutcheon and a pitcher ??? What will we be dealing with next year?

An underachieving pitching staff and the starting 7 who are part of this fiasco of an August.

We need new ownership, new management and a fresh start. Gut this whole organization of losers , start over and suck it up for 2 years. With a new infusion of $$$$$, new faces and a truly new"culture"

The quote I find most promising is as follows:

"We’ve got some good young players and we’re going to supplement those young players as we need to going forward. We feel it is different, the culture is changing, we play hard from the first pitch to the last.”

To me this sounds like they will look for veteran free agents to help offset all the young guys.  How many they deem necessary and ther potential will be the question come spring.

Everyone is aware that we may not have an answer on the PA issue until the end of September or early October?

Just what we need, prolong the agony.  

Can't wait for spring!  Most of our questions will be answered one way or another.  

Some left over business from last night.  

I was pleased to see, although I had to ask twice, that Ron d and I essentially agree on what needs to be done to right the ship.  At least as far as the process goes.  

Ron would sell the team and have different people do essentially the same things current management is attempting only with more resources and fewer mistakes.  Can't argue against that.  But it might be hoping for too much because (1) Nutting probably isn't going to sell the team, and (2) there's no guarantee that if he did, whoever bought it wouldn't be just as bad or even worse.

The team on the field is the strongest argument that the whole system needs to be rebuilt.  Using our current resources I can think of ways to tweak it a little, but tweaking just isn't going to do it.

On the other hand I don't see the point in going over the top just because Andy LaRoche hasn't proved to be Brooks Robinson in his first month, or because Scott Boras seems to have a vendetta against Frank Coonelly (and possibly vice versa).  

The nature of the game is simply that most things anybody does do not work out.  That's why you have to do so many different things to be successful.

The current mess belongs to McClatchy & Littlefield.  Look at our minor leagues from State College to Indianapolis, which are filled with the recruits from their regime.  The best of those clubs have delusions of adequacy and the worst are abyssmal.  Compare that to what our rookie leagues did this year.  Bradenton won the Gulf Coast League at .661, our Venenzuelan team won it's league and the Dominican team was 40-30.

Not every deal is going to work out.  And if you compare reality to having unlimited resources and guessing right every time (while the competition rolls over and plays dead), well you'll be right every time.  

Whatever your personal level of frustration, it's obvious that this team needs fixing from top to bottom -- not just a few patches on the big league club.

If Sabathia gets the ball clean, his throw to first easily beats LaRoche..Its an error......I dont see the rationale of Bob Webb at all.....

interesting take by Kruk on baseball tonight..he says thay mlb wants a decision right when the play is made..He rules it a hit...Kruk went onto say that in other situations he has seen similar to this one, once the team (Pirates)gets another hit, the scoreer would go back and chnage the initial hit to an error..

Mad -- Let's at least hope that one of those "veteran free agents" will be Mienkiewicz.

per our president

We’ve got some good young players and we’re going to supplement those young players as we need to going forward

uh..didnt we already have those guys..the names bay, marte and nady come to mind....

whathe was really trying to say

"...we're going to supplement those young players as we need to going forward WITH VETERAN GUYS WHO ARE REALLY REALLY CHEAP AND ARE LOOKING TO HANG ONTO THEIR CAREERS FOR ANOTHER YR OR 2...BECAUSE MY BOSS MAN WANTS TO OPEN ANOTHER TRAIL AT HIS SNOW MOUNTAIN THIS YEAR...BUT WE WILL HAVE A GENe CLINES BOBBLEHEAD NIGHT IN 2009 THO

sell the team...clear out the clowns....move the circus....

Hapless alert!

New York Post: www.nypost.com/.../rough_sun_day_for_nady_126949.htm

"The Yankees New York Yankees were just three games out of first place when Xavier Nady came over from the hapless Pirates on July 26 and assumed..."

anotther sign that this team doenst get it---during this carnage wouldnt you wnat to have some good news....doug m has stated it wouldnt take much to keep him here--so why not do it now--get the public goodwill...make it a big deal--make the fans happy...emphasize his character....is this really that hard to figure out

SELL THE TEAM

Dirty Doug is the everyday 1B in 2009 after Adam L. is traded slightly below market value because of his poor starts. Doug says he wants to play everyday; the PBC is his best chance. By management keeping Adam it's telling the team that sure you can stink in April & May; we're fine with it. That would contradict their current message. Also frees up 1B for PA in 2010.  

Joggin....Your ignoring a couple of important things.  We can't scoring any runs and replacing a hitter with good power potiential with a guy that might hit 5 HR's in a full season doesn't help anything(you can't have a whole line up of 2, 7, and 8 hitters, which is what we would have with Doumit possibley being a #6.

The other is Doug is traditionally a slow starter also, so now we will probably have a guy around .230 in April with no power potential.  

I think Doug should be resigned, but if he is resigned as a starter, we will probably be thinking toward 2010 and more likely 2011.  If so we should look at moving Maholm, McClouth and Doumit this offseason and Snell and Capps if they have a good first half next year, because they all will be making too much money by the time this team is any good.

Joggin George - EXCELLENT plan ... I don't see why we can't break outside the he's-not-part-of-the future-plans box for one year and give a full-time job to Dirty Doug, who will still be only 33 next year.

Advantages - It sends a message to LaRoche-types that, sorry, you can't tank the first part of the year two years in a row, and still be part of this team; and two, it sends a message to the fan base that we're going to put the best players on the field (yes, that can be done while sacrificing the non-home run factor you get with Mientkiewicz).

... and I know this isn't the ultimate team goal, but it keeps people coming to the ballpark!

ron d : and YOU DO get it ? Bizarro world is all you get. It would have been just great to have only finished 21 or so games under .500 WITH Bay,Marte and Nady,and then seen them walk in free agency with nothing in return ? So guys like you could have complained about that happening.You just like to see your statements on line,whether they make sense or not.....most of the time or not !

Just another beutiful day in Bucco World with only 1-month to go. All that extra batting yesterday pays off with a one hit grounder/no-hitter. The day before that the third baseman is getting dancing/foot work lessons, and the day before that we get the signee that didn't sign. I can't wait for the 2009 ticket package to come out so that my kids can check off the fireworks night.

This is sooo pitiful, an organization steeped in tradition has become poster child of ineptitude. How does management puts together a plan for next year to fill the seats in the stands?

There is no nuance of a new stadium, or the extortion of an All-Star game, & no promise of next year after 16-seasons of next years. I fear that this is the beginning of the end. Empty seats will be the justification of bigger & better things for MLB & the Nuttings.    

Huntington: "We’ve got some good young players."

me: "Who?"

There may indeed be be a small handful of good players on this team. However, there certainly aren't any great players. And the few good players are not enough to make up for the majority who are below average. Bay and Nady couldn't make up for the lack of talent with the Pirates so unless there's going to be a major change in the starting 8 and the 5 starters for next season, it will be more of the same ... win 1 or 2 games, lose 6 or 7.

worst professional sports organization ever ... at least the Pirates have "succeeded" in being the "best" at something!

www.baseballamerica.com/.../266766.html .For any one interested in Jim Callis' (from BBA ) take on the Alvarez affair.

Judging by the negative posts it sounds like "some" people want to get rid of everyone now.JR and company have been here less than 10 months.I admit there have been tons of mistakes,but you have to give these guys more time.There are exceptions of course.Like why do we keep the same scouts?Jeff Andrews worked with most of the starters in the minors.I think revamping the scouts and a new pitching coach might be needed.I think Tabata will be a call up next September and Mcutchen will get some time as well and with Nate and Moss and Morgan we'll have a stable of promising outfielders.Maybe it's time to get something out of Duffy.The real key is the pitchers.Gorzilla and Snell really need to step up.Also it seems like Nate and Ryan hit the wall,so they need to work on conditioning.

 I just don't think it helps to get rid of everyone.These players need to have some sense of familairity.Getting rid of all management borders on insanity and total panic.Sign Doug and hope there are more leaders in the clubhouse and hope like heck.Just my opinion.BTW some of the players read these blogs,so please try to be a little civil!

Maybe MLB should contract some teams. Both of the Florida teams could go and not many people would care.

The Marlins have the absolute worst attendance even though they had pretty much been in the thick of things in the NL East up until a couple of weeks ago.

The Rays are also down near the bottom in attendance even though they have the best record in baseball right now.

Of course, the Pirates are horrible, but they should never be contracted since they are one of the original teams in MLB. Besides, by contracting those teams, the Pirates could get a couple of talented players which might better improve the chances of a winning season in 2010 or 2011.

"BTW some of the players read these blogs,so please try to be a little civil!"

I don't see any comments that would provoke a statement like that. If the players don't want to be criticized for their on-field performance, then they should play better.

TO ANY PLAYERS READING THESE BLOGS

RUN... RUN FOR YOUR LIVES TO ANOTHER ORGNIZATION.........

So, I'm outside doing some yard work and come in the house to get a drink. I check in on the blog, scroll down and the first two things I see are:

Gene Collier writes that Sabathia is huge in more ways than one.

and a picture of Sabathia doing 'who knows what? and to whom?'

I don't know what you guys are up to today, but I'm going back outside before Mrs. Pants starts suspecting things.

Sanchez-at best average

both LaRoches-horrible

Wilson -Ok

Mc Louth-average at best after a good April and May

Doumit(no-mitt) can't catch-hide him somewhere

Moss-average at best can't count on power production

WHERE ARE WE GOING?????

PPPLLLEEEAAAASSSSEEEE Nutting sell this team and concentrate on 7 springs and how you entertain people with

fireworks and gimmnicks

Dejan

why is mccuthchen not on the call up list for september instead of pearce? If the bucs are evaluating talent, isn't it his turn? I for one want to see him, and what he can offer. Maybe he will be a glimmer of hope. My expeience is when coaching, you have to let your team be what it is. We have great speed in the outfield if you bring guys up. We could have an excellent defensive outfield, speed on the bases and several 270 hitters in a row in our lineup. We don't have any power guys so stop trying to be a power team and play small ball.

Considering what we have on 3rd base,why not put Walker on the 40 man roster instead of bringing up 2 3rd basemen.His average is close to .250 which ain't great,but he has about 80 RBI.Let him start a few games and let Lil LA look over his shoulder.Like a swift kick in the pants for Lil La.I bet Matt Hague will be at Indy next year at 3rd.BTW PA  your dad called and said "go to work".

I meant 2 catchers

I meant 2 catchers

Happy Labor Day to all.

Five random reactions after scrolling the blogscape:

1. Andy LaRoche is indeed lethargic, as is his big brother. Both play the game with the speed, explosiveness and intensity of that big, fat, gimmicky lob pitch their daddy use to throw. My advice: Sign the scout who told Jayson Stark that Lil' Andy is "lethargic." That guy can evaluate talent.

2. The GM was calling out both Freddy Sanchez and Ian Snell with that comment about making mistakes on long-term deals. The former is a below-average major league infielder for whom the stars aligned perfectly one magical season, a bench guy at best with no power, no speed and no arm. The latter is a head case who never will be a consistent performer. I get the feeling he doesn't take criticism or instruction well.

3. Unless Luis Cruz looks like the next Hanley Ramirez, we will make a horrible mistake by trading Jack Wilson. Not only is Wilson among the top five defensive shortstops in all of baseball, the fight he showed at the plate the other night in that game we were losing by nine runs in the ninth inning for a team that has gone into the collective tank showed me something. He's in his prime, seems like a great clubhouse influence and wants to be here. If we gamble Wilson away like we did another player who fits that profile, Jason Bay (Xavier Nady and Damaso Marte were both gone anyway, so I don't mind that move), it's a huge mistake.

4. Lanny Frattere, the worst play-by-play announcer in baseball, must go. I'd make the move now and announce that the AntiGunner's contract won't be renewed next year. That will deflect some of the attention away from the abomination we've become on the field, and give Frattere a chance to go out with a "Lanny Frattere NIght" before the end of the season.

5. If we lose the Pedro Alvarez hearing and have to renegotiate the contract, offer him $3 million, half what we were willing to pay him, to send a message, and let him and his serpentine agent go shake down someone else next year.

If we win the hearing, send him down to the instructional camp here in Florida immediately and make him do laps around the complex all afternoon in the 95-degree, 100 percent-humidity weather. That'll send a real old-school message. And there's no better time to start that reconditioning of the body and mind than the day after the Sept. 10 hearing: 9/11.

To criticize the situation is not necessarily a criticism of a palyers' ability or professionalism. I can appreciate the play of new & old players of this season, & to cliam that they have jumped into a bilge tank is unjustified.

What brings out the dark clouds on a day like today is that no matter what this club does to right this ship, they cannot compete, thanks to this system. The reality of this team & its affliliates reflects back to their records. To say it was past ownerships/managements actions maybe right, but it's also shortsighted. We almost lost this team before the stadium, & thanks to some of the people we are so willing to roast today, there is a team to bemoan.

What has created this situation today morethan anything else is simply, "MONEY." In order to compete, this organization has to produce, & there in lies the curmudgeon. The seats have to be filled, & the national press has to embrace us as they do the Twins or Brewers.

In order to do this, the players on this team have to play at level they haven't shown they can accomplish. To expect a team to mature at this level with players of AA or AAA ablity, is alot to ask of the players & its fans. In order to get those players that sould be here we can't afford, except for maybe for a season before they become free agents. So as long as this situation exists, don't expect Jose Tabatha to be the next Dave Parker, because there is no Wille to show him the bucco way, & he'll get his Yankee paycheck if he produces in his free agent year, (not that the Cobra didn't do it).

maz

I agree that its walker's turn. If we are taking a look at players. We could use a guy at third that has is potential. I really feel that the new regime is going to give their guys more opportunity to prove that they are indeed the best management team in baseball and to give someone like walker a chance would be risky. If walker does good, then littlefield would look good and we can't have that. I am a big believer in speed in all sports. We have it so lets use it.

I thought Neil Walker might be among the Sept. call-ups.

He was Indy's MVP and finished pretty well.  I realize he's not on the 40-man and that you might not want to start his clock, but......

However, references by NH that Andy Laroche will have to compete with Neil Walker next season for the starting 3B job are notoriously absent.  I wonder if the Pirates think Walker is ready or good enough to do that.

motown,

I agree that, as constituted, this is not a power team.  It would take a lot of free agent money or luck to turn this team into a power team.  Small ball looks like the way to go.  One big problem:  We don't have the starting pitching to keep the other team's score within reach.  Small ball teams have a hard time winning games 9 - 7, and that is the kind of hole this offense needs to climb out of so often.  I think your plan is realisitic offensively, but we must, must, get better starting pitching.

When I first started following this blog, I thought ron d and Concerned Chris were out to lunch.  I'm still not sure about ron d, but can't throw any stones.  I feel Concerned Chris's pain, though.  I went to my first game since Bay's second to last game (a win against Colorado) Saturday night, figuring that Maholm vs. Suppan (Matt Morris alternate) was the best chance of a win this series.  Luckily, my son and I left after the 8th inning when it was only 8-2. In addition to attending 6-10 games a year, I avidly watch[ed] the Bucs on TV.  They have been so bad now, though,  I can't even watch them.

I differ with the anti's, though, in heaping all blame on Nutting (no, I'm not related and have never met any of them).  I know there is a reluctance, because I share it, in putting the blame where it lies.  It's squarely on Kevin  M.  The Nuttings were able to pick up shares because of K M's mismanagement, causing other rational business people to want to get out.  He will be forever in my prayers and I will always think highly of him because he saved the Pirates for Pittsburgh and was the key to getting PNC Park.  But he's also the main reason for our present plight.

Nutting didn't get us into the financial situation where after 3 years in a new  ballpark the Pirates were $30 something million in debt and ended up having to dump the key to a small market's rebuilding program (A Ramirez, a 3rd baseman who we've been trying to replace since).  That wasn't Nutting's doing.  Think of the present team if Ramirez had not been dumped for nothing--Bay, at least,is still here and we're not guaranteed 16 years losing.  

I know this is all  water under the bridge and doesn't mean anything for today, but I cannot watch the present product on the field anymore,even on TV. But I don't blame Nutting (except for approving the Morris deal).  

I also am willing to give the present management time, but no matter how the Alvarez deal ends up, and regardless of the fact Boras was involved, they handled that badly.  Reading through all the propaganda, they didn't offer Pedro more than $5 million until 4 minutes (at the earliest) before the deadline, after Weiters settled for $6 million last year at the deadline.  I don't buy this "Boras wouldn't let us talk to him" line.  Where's the certified letter offering him more?

Keep 'em coming Jose Lind's Pants

Enough dibble dabble, people! It is time to discuss the upcoming game at hand, Ian Snell vs. the Cincinnati Reds. How can someone pitch as well as he did in St. Louis, and then get eaten up in Pittsburgh? I'm expecting a low ER number, and a high K game for Mr. Snell as (seriously folks) this guy has nothing to lose anymore. He's been denounced staff ace, so why isn't giving it all he's got? Aaron Harang has had an AWFUL season. Anybody remember what the Reds' ace did last year? Try 16-6 with a sub 4.00 ERA. Lets hope Snell can snag us a W.

(Check out my blog for serious PIT coverage)

theburghblues.mlblogs.com

thegunner -

Are you sure about that? I was thinking ANDY LaRoche's, not Adam's speed is measured with an hourglass. Adam's is measured with a sundial and, occasionally, a calendar.

I think if Duffy stays injury free (and head on straight) he would be the best centerfielder for the next year or so (maybe longer depending on how things shake out). He can hit and is very fast.  Move Nate to a coner spot.  Moss and back-ups in right or left. Morgan has speed but is to light of a hitter to play everyday.  Mc C, Tabata even Walker could use time in AAA.  we have to stop rushing players to the bigs before they are ready.  Bring up Ronny Paulino and see what he has learned.  This is a little scary because if you hand him a job he may go back to being lazy. (could be trade bait).

Jonel Pacheco looks good for the future as well.  Doug M (if resigned) plays first and concedes some time to Pearce.

Doumit it's to early to tell.  First long season for him, He does need to work a bit more on his defense though.  Depending on how you like the back-ups in the minors we could move him to 1st or the outfield.

Jack W,  I still like him but we have to keep one youngster on the roster to learn from him and play some as well.

Same with Freddy at second.  Maybe just a bad year from him plus who knows how much the injuries have affected him.

Pitching,  open tryouts in spring.  Winners go north with the club no matter how much or little they make.  Get the others ready in AAA for any failures. Maybe get one GOOD one in free agency if one is there.

Free agents if and only if we can improve a position and plan to keep them at least two years until Tabata and maybe PA (if we still him him) are ready.  

I think we could have a good team next year.  Not giving up on lil R yet but big R needs to improve very fast to stay or make the team.  If little R fails use Doug M there and big R at first with Pearce.  If Big R starts slow use Pearce and Big R as the back up.  

One thing I am sure of, we should have some trade bait next year.  NOT the cream of the crop but one minor player or draft pick would be useful.  The ones that don't produce will be gone and hopefully the younger guys in AAA will be a little better and able to come up later in the year or next.

I can understand why Walker would not be a September call-up. His numbers are very uninspiring (.242 AVG, .696 OPS, 19 E) and his August "surge" of a .275 AVG and .725 OPS, while an improvement, do not warrant extra consideration in my opinion. For some added perspective, he has not even done in the minors what Jose Bautista did in the majors for the team this year. He is just not ready and at age 22 (very soon to be 23), very easily could be overmatched a la Bixler earlier in the year.  Let him season more in the minors and build the confidence necessary to face major league pitching (his 29 BB's and 102 K's do not exactly belie a keen eye and patience at the plate).  This year is shot, so there is no harm in letting Andy LaRoche continue to audition for a meaningful role in the future.

I am looking at that picture of CC jumping on Fielder. Is there any doubt that Fielder is probably the only player on either theam who would not have been crushed by the weight of CC?

I guess I am the only one on this blog who had not chimed in with an opinion on hitgate. Partly, that's because I saw only one quick view of the replay. Thanks to DK's link, I have watched it three or four times. Here's my take. I have two opinions: what it ought to be based on normal baseball calls and what it ought to be, period. I would say 95-99% of the time, that play will be called a hit. The offense always seems to get the beneifit of close calls on hits or maybe it's to keep fielders from having their precious feelings hurt by the charge of an error. However, that play and others like it should be errors. The runner was barely inside that box along the baseline when CC should be ready to throw. If he does not fumble the ball, LaRoche is an easy out barring a bad throw. All that said, the hit is what I would have expected in that situation. If the game does not proceed without further hits, no one even talks about that play again except for Andy bragging about his fabulous day at the plate.

Ever notice how Dejan sometimes slips what appears to be an 'innocent little newsworthy news tidbit' into the end of his 'Buried Treasure' bit???

www.post-gazette.com/.../908533-63.stm

"Rich Donnelly, a roving instructor, joined the Pirates' coaching staff and will remain the rest of the season."

Rich Donnelly is often referred to as the major league coach equivalent to 'always the bridesmaid, never the bride' - he has been a third base coach for a very long time in the Pros & has yet to have a managing stint with a major league club: Does this 'subtle' move spell trouble for Russell? Another coach? This is not a 'business as usual' type of move---

DK, care to elaborate?

"I thought Neil Walker might be among the Sept. call-ups."

At this point it's doubtful Walker is even a part of the Pirates long term plans and he's going to have to start hitting if he wants to get back into them - a .695 OPS at AAA simply doesn't merit a call up.

And why some people  think McLouth, Doumit and Mientkiewicz are the only ones worth keeping is kinda funny in that they are the three who've collapsed since the all star break and bear most of the offenses share of the  blame for the current losing.  

Nate McLouth in a corner outfield spot?  Please, only if he begins hitting like he did in April and May which seems very unlikely.   The 800ish OPS he seems likely to put up going forward is good enough for center but not a corner outfield spot.

as for "hit/error-gate" -- I only watched about 10 minutes of the game yesterday (I already had a sinus headache and didn't want to add to it).  as it happened, the only part that I watched was adam laroche's swinging bunt and my first impression was that it was an error.  watching the replay, I still thought it was an error.  maybe CC gets him, maybe he doesn't.  tough call for sure, but I would not have been upset if it was called an error -- even if it made for a no-hitter against my favorite hapless ball club.

I don't blame the brewers for protesting -- but, I did think that yost was over the top.  still, he's sticking up for his pitcher, which I understand.

as for CC -- I thought he answered the question with class.  I was a big fan of his when he pitched for the indians and I still am.  though, I could have done without the whole jumping-up-and-down exhibition at the end of the game.

one poster here asked us to be "civil" since some of the players supposedly read this blog.  I say, "we ARE being civil!  we could be a whole lot worse!"

besides -- how were we NOT "civil" when posting about jodi m's surgery?

McLouth has not hit as well since the All Star game but he was ill for bit and that takes some time to get back from.  Also, this is first season as regular and the long season often takes a toll on young players.  I say wait until next year and see what he does.  As for Doumit--collapsed since the All Star game--not as i see it:

Pre All Star 207 AB  11 HR  29 RBI .329 average

Post All Star  142 AB  2 HR  22 RBI  .317 average

Power stats down but a collapse--not by my definition.

:  

@G-Man....

You know what, you may have brought up an angle that none of us have really considered yet-----Here's a question for all of you regarding the 'hitgate' play:

Let's say CC does field that ball & makes a throw - the throw is wild & scoots down the 1B line (LaRoche doesn't advance to 2B)

Is it THAN ruled an error??? This is a very important point - I think if Mr. Webb would have ruled THAT an error, he simply must overturn this call.

The most important thing here & those of us who consider themselves 'baseball traditionalists' know that there is an unwritten code about this exact type of thing-Umpires/Scorers should NEVER, I repeat NEVER be 'visible' in these types of circumstances. You ask 700 MLB players who are faced with a 3-2 count with 2 outs in the ninth, while the pitcher is throwing a perfect game, ALL 700 will tell you that 'you better swing the bat', because if that pitch is even in the same hemisphere, it is going to be ruled a strike. This same code applies to Scorers....the minute we even gained knowledge of this guys name 'Bob Webb' is the minute that he should have realized this gaffe.

On another note, even though JR in his usual 'charisma packed (sarcasm)' charm of one word answers to the question about whether it was a hit and he answered 'No' - (as if he was on Trial & advised by his lawyer (probably scott boras :p))....

I would like Dejan to ask him another question-IF that play is ruled an error, does JR call up the scorer's box to question that ruling???

I think Dejan would receive the same answer-No

That tells you all that you need to know-all replays aside, that was meant to be a no-hitter & who knows what type of retribution the baseball gods will have for us now.

It may have taken an above-ordinary effort to get to the ball, but once there, CC should have made the play. He had the time to make the throw, that's obvious from the replay.

Say, if a shortstop makes a diving stop on a grounder up the middle -- an above-ordinary play -- but then, from his knees, fires the ball into the stands, it can be an error.

The no-hitter should NOT be restored, because the factors and pressure change (though I think he no-hits this group anyway), but it was the wrong call. Can't agree with it.

PLEASE, PLEASE, no Ronnie P. or Chris D. in September, anything but those two. Can you just see it now, Duffy comes up with his injury, & Joggin-Iron Butt Ronnie hits his grounder to show how not to go to first. It's bad enough to have a team play like this, but to force fans to rehash the type of effort that these two have shown is to much. The only good thing out of the month of September for this team is to see if this group of players, under these circumstances, will they play for this manager.  

@JAL Right on the Nate front.  we need to see more, first time for a whole year and being sick does not make it easier.

@UncleDirtNap  time to go back to napping.  :-) lol

Considering what we have on this team and what is NOT ready in the minors, minus a free agent (not likely) what would you do in the meantime?

Just trying to be realistic with what we have.

I am open for others to share their thoughts on who they would play.

@G-Man

I think the photo looks a little pornish?  No?

@ConcernedChris--If CC throws wildly to first and LaRoche doesn't get to second it is only an error if the scorer determines that LaRoche would have been out if the throw was accurate.  If the scorer believes LaRoche would have beaten the throw it is a hit.  If the scorer believes LaRoche would have beaten the throw and LaRoche goes to second on the wild throw it is a hit and an error.  If the scorer believes La Roach would have been out with an accurate throw then it is an error.  

Who would they play--kind early and there always be surprises like McLouth (memory says he was not seen as the everyday CF in the spring).  They seem determined to go with Andy LaRoche at 3rd,  SS--Wilson or who knows;  2b-Sanchez; 1lb Adam LaRoche;  C-Doumit and Chavez; OF-McLouth, Moss, and who knows. They keep says McCutchen isn't ready yet.  Morgan is a possibility or some low cost free agent.

Starters--Maholm, Snell, Duke, Karstens, Gorzelanny, and Dumatrait with at least one them being offered at trade bait during the offseason.

I think we need to get Doumit back to the outfield. We need his big bat in the lineup every day and he gets too many days off behind the plate plus the increased injury factor back there.

Paulino certainly needs to impress big time to get his job back . I would like to see what new guy from toronto -Diaz- can do too

@ ron d

Your one-note samba is tiring.

Current ownership is not going to sell the team. Try coming up with another, more feasible plan, ~if~ you can.

ALSO, STOP SHOUTING! IT DOES NOT GET YOUR POINT ACROSS ANY BETTER!

@cocktailsfor2

Yes it is starting to hurt my ears or eyes or whatever.  LOL

It's kind of like the parsley on a Plane they use it over and over and over again.

It's wilted and old.  Like oil in my vehicle it's in need of a change.

@ Concerned Chris

>>....The most important thing here & those of us who consider themselves 'baseball traditionalists' know that there is an unwritten code about this exact type of thing-Umpires/Scorers should NEVER, I repeat NEVER be 'visible' in these types of circumstances......the same code applies to scorers.....the minute we even gained knowledge of this guys name 'Bob Webb' is the minute that he should have realized this gaffe. <<

I agree with your statement about the unwritten code, but I don't see where it is applicable when the game is not even half over. The play occured with nobody out in the fifth, not with two outs in the ninth. In Webb's defense, how could he have known that the Pirates were going to be so punchless the rest of the way? In addition, I think it would have been unfortunate for him to have to succumb to pressure later in the game to change his call just because the Pirates continued to flail away so "hap-deprivedly", when he was so steadfast in his belief that it was an error. I think it took a lot more courage for him to stick to his guns later in the game than change the call for the purpose of preserving anonymity.

I live in Houston now and witnessed many a questionable hit vs. error call while Biggio was pursuing his quest for 3,000 hits. He did not need the extra help he was given by the home-team official scorer and I'm sure that he was inwardly a bit embarrassed by some of the blatant favoritism.

@smokey_burgess

Gee I forgot about him.  You are right I would like to see what he has to offer as well.

madturk2008 - pornish? These guys could make a lot more money ...

G-Man - If you turned it around and Fielder was jumping on Sabathia that way ... I think Sabathia would be on the DL for a long time.

That Fielder seems to gain weight by THE INNING. And you know the Brewers have had some big innings. I think before it's over, he'll make his old man look like Peter Pan.

@ron d

Think maybe we will see you on dancing with the stars?

A one step samba for you my man.

Still blogging friends?

cocktailsfor2 - A hair off-subject ... I'm intrigued by your reference to ron d's "one-note samba" ... The only place I ever saw that was the title of a bossa nova song played by Stan Getz ... Is that where you got that?

I just happen to be heavy into that old 1960s Bossa movment ...

Back to beisaball, and heh, heh, heh ... Charley Hustle.

@Baywatch

You know you are referring his pappy as a girl?  

ron d - I just went up and read the post you made that was REALLY LOUD, the one that coctailsfor2 was talking about ...

If you sell the clowns there won't be a circus to move any more. You CAN'T have a circus without clowns!

madturk2008 - Hope Cecil doesn't read that and come after me ... Pee Wee Herman would be a real slap, too.

How about Joe Orsulak?

@Baywatch--Antonio Carlos wrote One Note Samba and it has performed by Ella Fitzgerald, Sinatra, Astrid Gilberto and many others:

This is just a little samba

Built upon a single note

Other notes are bound to follow

But the root is still that note

@Baywatch--why not just go for a former Pirate who gave his name to stat,  Mario Mendoza?

@Baywatch

LOL   to loud?  how about lol

madturk2008 - You are just too witty ... wittie? ... witte?

G-Man, How do you spell the darn thing?

Baywatch -

>>madturk2008 - You are just too witty ... wittie? ... witte? G-Man, How do you spell the darn thing?<<

d-r-o-l-l   Sorry, couldn't resist. The real word is w-i-t-t-y, just like your first try. (Hoping, one day, to escape Baywatch's and BillyKidd's purgatory for correcting spelling.)

@ Bay

Yes, that is where I got it. It has become part of the vernacular as a synonym for tired, monotonous, repetitive, though the song itself is nothing of the kind...

<a href="en.wikipedia.org/.../One_note_samba">

Also: "witty."

We have two glaring needs which aren't easy to acquire:

1.  Someone to anchor the pitching staff. An ace. A losing streak breaker.  Mahlom has been good, but he is a long way from that.  

2.  A bat that can carry a lineup.  We aren't even close.  Most good teams have one.  Bay or Nady weren't one either.

Houston has Berkman, Milwaukee has Braun or Fielder, St Louis has Pujols, Chicago has Lee or Ramirez.

I don't care if the opposing pitchers strikes out all 27 batters, if he's pitching against the current version of the Pirates, he shouldn't be credited with a no hitter!

But seriously, watching the game yesterday my first impression was that it was an error. You could tie Nyjer Morgan's shoestrings together and he would still beat Andy Laroche to first base.

GMAN, you pretty have the same viepoint on the play as my cousin -santa rosa johnny who got a hit of the king and knows a thing or two about baseball.

He said the guy is a major leaguer and they are suppose to make those plays.  official scorers have been getting easier and easier on calling errors and the guy should have made the play, error

@CAVE

I agree that we ar missing the "big bat", but management has already stated that they won't start spending more money until they think we are ready to contend. I just don't see them going after a big FA bat this off-season.

I do disagree that Bay wasn't that kind of player though. He was a consistent 30 - 35 HR, 100 RBI guy who helped guys in front of him in the lineup get better picthes. You need more than one player of that caliber though to have a really good lineup.   Look at earlier this year, with Nady having a good year and Bay producing in the middle of the lineup, it helped McClouth, Doumit, LaRoche, and even Bautista to be able to produce a pretty productive lineup.

Did any one in here think that just possibly,possibly,that McLouth and Doumit hit the wall about the time Nady and Bay left the lineup ? Do any of you think that might have something to do with it ? Or,like ron d,are you to busy blaming Nutting for everything that went wrong due to McLatchey and Little man...er field to pay attention to the baseball reasons for some of their problems ? For motown...if you think Andy LaRoche isn't ready,try watching Neil Walker at that level ! Unlike you,I have seen all of these guys play at various levelS up through Spring Training this season,and Walker wasn't even close to being ready for MLB,and has pretty much shown that in AAA.And as I mentioned previously,the guy who has had the winning RBI in 2 out of their last 3 wins was sent to Indy for whatever reason. Puting pop guns in the offense with the 2 mentioned sure as hell didn't protect Nate or Doumit much.

jersey joe -

Thanks for the concurrence. To some extent, I have a problem with MLB using the term "standard effort." It's just too ambiguous. Standard for whom? I expect Jack Wilson to make plays that Bixler can't. I expect Mazeroski to make plays that Sanchez can't. I never expected Dick Stuart to make any plays at all, etc. etc. Still, I realize the rule book has to give some sort of guideline.

Lion43-

>>Did any one...think that...McLouth and Doumit hit the wall about the time Nady and Bay left the lineup?<<

That's an excellent thing to mention. Although let me say Doumit hasn't been awful since the All-Star break except for less power/HR. But to your point: if Adam LaRoche can be a no-show in April and May, why can't McLouth have a bad July and August "just because"? There are so many factors in a game like baseball that there's not going to be a simple answer.

60FT6 : your thoughts on Bay's impact on the lineup weren't up when I sent my earlier thoughts.I swear though  that some of these people never try to think things through before running at the mouth.

"Standard effort" is a subjective term.  Fortunately, such decisions are rarely important.  If the Pirate had 3 hits at the time the CC/LaRoche play happened we wouldn't be discussing whether it was a hit or an error.  It seems impossible to create a guideline which solve the subjective problem

@ Lion43 and G-man:  much earlier in this thread I posted Doumit's per and post All Star game stats.  Very little fall off except in HR.  Even his RBI totals are equivalent.  For anyone who missed it here is Doumit:

Pre All Star 207 AB  11 HR  29 RBI .329 average

Post All Star  142 AB  2 HR  22 RBI  .317 average

GMAN, pretty funny about Dick.

G-Man - unfortunately for you - but fortunately for me - you wear a lot of HAPS on this blog ... Now back to spelling purgatory before I and me first mate BillyKidd march you out onto the plank at mitt-point.

And just to keep you in practice, how do you spell geyser, geiser or whatever that thing is that shoots out of the ground at Ye Old Yellowstone Park?

It be the word that sent me back out into the adolescent crowd at large, from the 8th grade spelling bee ... aaaarggghhh!

If the Pirates already have a hit prior to that play and the play is ruled an error by the scorer, is the complaint then that it should have been ruled a hit since it was a tough play and the scorer is being too hard on the fielder?

@Baywatch --Do you recognize spelling errors as different from typos or are both dealt with by the plank :)

60FT6

Bay was a solid player but I never saw him or Nady carry this team on their backs.  Having a good season or providing protection for the hitters that follow is very different from being the "I'm gonna get the big hit/Homerun" type that this team hasn't seen since Bonds.  

Ramirez blossomed into that type,  but bad management let him go. Nady had potential.  We are too cheap to pick one up when available now.

Teams with those types of players are winners.  Teams without them are generally losers.  

@Bay:

Geyser = Yellowstone

Geezer = G-Man.

;-)

Concerning Doumit & Mclouth hitting walls, the fact that they stand alone without Bay & Nady has as much to do with their production than anything else. Granted Freddie, Jack & the rest have had their moments, those bats that went to the AL-East are missed. I just wish that they protect Nate more, evan if it means they sit him for the sake of the AAA boys. His role next year is so important for this team, that ending on a slump may do him more harm.

Chiming in late on a couple of matters:

1] My first thought at the Prince Hoisting CC photo was: is the next photo one of one fat guy laying atop another fat guy with the guy on the bottom screaming "I can't breathe!"

2] Ned Yost: the guy ruled it a hit.  You're going to the playoffs, so stop whining.

3] Doumit's numbers are great for a catcher, not so great for a 1B or corner OF.  He catches or he won't play much.  At any rate, he's young, and his numbers might improve.

4] I love Nate as a player, but there was no way he was driving in 110 runs this year.  Some drop-off was inevitable; the key on a good team is to have more than 1 guy to rely on when the drop-off happens.

5] As a college professor, I applaud Baywatch's attention to spelling--if only my students were so diligent.  (Ironically, when I was in grammar school, I could never spell the word "professor" correctly!)

Good hitters don't have to depend on protection. They ARE the protectors and help others in the lineup.

If Bay and Nady were instrumental in  Nate's and to a lesser degree, Ryan's success, what does it say about them as hitters?  Where does it leave us in their evaluation for next year?

cocktailsfor2 - Thank you! That's one that still haunts me as I was like maybe the 8th kid left out of 70 ... of course, I could have looked it up AGAIN before I put it out there but wanted to have a little fun once again (some of you guys need to let your hair down a little - but not too much. In some instances, I need to put mine up).

G-Man - Sorry about the strong Pirate language, coupled with purgatory ... We wuv you or we wuddn' have such fun at your expense ... BUT since cocktailsfor2 beat you to the proper spelling, we'll have to go to the judges ... Mr. Webb ...

Congrats, G-Man! cocktailsfor2 joins you in spelling purgatory!

JAL - I'll be reversing my ruling if can't spell this word myself ... p-l-a-y-n-k/Playnk ... Oh, nooooooooo (in blood-curdling voice of the man who couldn't make the right guess at the bridge in Monty Python and the Holy Grail!).

I probably need to get a gig on a comedy/music blog.

@Cave

Just about all hitters need lineup protection--Bonds and Kent in SF, and Big Papi and Manny in Boston come to mind.  It's rare that a guy can do it on his own: I can think of maybe 5 guys in my life who required none.  So it's not an indictment of Nate and Ryan so much as it is the rest of the lineup the team has assembled.

Cave, Cave Cave - You bring up a good point about the relation to Bay and Nady, the looks that Nate and Ryan have seen without them and how they adjust ... I think they will adjust and rise above.

I think back to the team, back in the spring, pointing to Nate and saying, "Here's the guy who will have the breakout year." Not sure how well-protected he was in spring training, with the hodge-podge of lineups. Plus, he did show some good plate discipline early on, i.e., before the trades.

They both have some more maturing to do ... It will be exciting to see how it plays out. Personally, I think if the whole team gets involved in a brawl early on the year, it will be the best thing that could happen to them.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the last time I checked, Ryan was still leading all catchers in the NL for average.  

And for both Nate and Ryan, it was their first fill year as starters.  I think maybe a little tailing off could be excused, especially with the improvements both players have made this season.

Piano Legs - Do you think it's going to take a free agent trade to come up with somebody/bodies to protect Nate and Doumit next year? Or will it probably be tougher at bats for them in 2009 with the team not doing anything FA-wise in the off-season?

Baywatch

I just read your post about Matty Alou.

I too patterned myself after Matty while growing up.  In fact, I even taught myself to switch hit so I could utilize my speed and beat out infield hits and slap the ball all around.  My right hand side was my power side, but I enjoyed hitting lefty much more thanks to Matty.

Tieing this into DK's special breed apart line is this anecdote.

During the Matty Alou era, I would often think of him slapping a ball into centerfield as a distraction from the pain I was feeling at the dentist.  

My childhood dentist was an ex Marine dentist and he didn't believe in novacaine.  

Once he started up that drill, I would think of Matty and I was able to make it through.

Little did I know at the time, but that dentist prepared me to be a Bucs fan for the past 16 years.  

Cocktails -

Darn you. Curses upon you for beating me to the punch (not cocktail variety) on "geezer." Excellent, amigo.

JAL -

Can't speak for Baywatch, but I make a distiction between spelling errors and typos since the latter are usually mechanical misteps on the keyboard. I hope Baywatch feels the same or I would be walking the plank after nearly every post of mine.

Baywatch,

I think the Bucs ought to stay away from free agency at the high end.  They're not going to assume a $90 million payroll, which would be a minimum--if they were going to do that, they'd have kept Nady and Bay.  And they're not going to want to take PT away from their young players.  I have no problem with this, as long as the team improves on the field, and they take the money they don't spend on FA's and apply it to the draft, Latin America, development, etc.  When they assemble the proper core, that will be the time to plug holes with FA's and trades.  I don't think they're there yet, however.

@Cave: Matty Alou and the Marine dentist= lol

Piano Legs

I agree.  There are however, the protectors and the protectees. Batting fourth, Manny protects Ortiz, but who protects Ortiz.  Someone always has to rise above it.  

Baywatch,

Forgot about your 2nd point.  I think the team next year will struggle to score as many runs as it did this year, simply because they'll lack power besides Doumit, Nate, and Adam La (provided he sets his alarm clock for April instead of July).  They could patch that with FAs, but should resist temptation.  Oh yeah, and as I've said several times, they should trade Jack, as his value will never be higher than it is now.

Cave - That's some story. I bet Matty would like to read that one!

Was the guy really an ex-Marine dentist? Or did he just hold that drill in his hand, salivating like Vince Carter when he saw Gomer Pyle stepping out of line.

No novacaine ... They should invent an emoticon for "shudder."

Nate and Ryan, I hope, are our future, it would be nice to be competetive before they can leave for free agency.  I've been a Buccos fan for 50 or more years.  I think these guys have a plan, of course, I though Bonifield had his act together too....

I love reading this site and I feel your frustration, heck, I always eat and sleep better when the PBC has a good day.

Right now, I'm famished and haven't slept in what, 10-11 days??Anyone want a Vegas bet of 72 wins or more??  Wins $20, I'll sell it for a quarter...

@Game5

"The no-hitter should NOT be restored, because the factors and pressure change (though I think he no-hits this group anyway), but it was the wrong call. Can't agree with it."

I agree with you on this point-that is the problem with this whole thing....We will never know if he faced the same pitch to pitch/out to out pressure, would he have accomplished this feat? Also, would the Pirates have played the same way through the rest of the game...no-hitters usually inspire (even the most unispirable) to play every inning from the fifth on like it is the bottom of the 9th. Sadly, though, CC simply manhandled us & I really think he could have pitched a doubleheader of no-hit ball that day (especially against us)

@madturk2008

"I think the photo looks a little pornish?  No?"

Boy do great minds think alike :)

Well, great minds=you, mediocre mind destroyed by 70s bong resin=me :-p

To those that argue that an error on CC would have changed the rest of the game, the way our knucco's where swinging the bat that day, its hard to assume it. That pitcher was a beast, shirt in or out. He can be intimadating.

My prior post should have read, "Who protects Manny".

Baywatch

Yes he was.He had tatoos on his huge forearms, and if you said that it hurt he would say, "C'mon, you can take it".  

I can still evoke that Matty image today.  I used it in yesterday's Bucs game.  

A team can without power if they excel in other areas.  Tampa Bay has only two players over 20 HR and the Pirates will finish with two if LaRoche hits two more.  Neither Nady nor Bay were really power hitters-Nady left with 13.  I have no stats on this but the Pirates seem to consistently fail to score with a runner on third and less than two outs.  Getting a hit, any hit, in those situations brings wins.

Removing Nady and Bay the Pirates are still only 5 less than the Mets in doubles.  About 40 behind in HR minus Nady and Bay.  The actual power figures would be closer because someone would played the games Nady and Bay played and hit some HR and doubles.

The big key for next year will be having starting pitchers with ERAs under 4.

apaologies to Cave and JAL.You guys both had good points re Bay and lineup production.My indictment of some on this site shouldn't include you,and some others also.The rest of us know who the guilty parties are though !

@Baywatch

Who protected Manny?  The rest of the line-up in Cleveland and Boston was pretty fair around him, as I recall.  That '06 BoSox team had very few holes, if any (if you don't count the one in Schilling's ankle).  In LA, he's managing to hit without protection because he's one of the best hitters we'll see in our lifetimes.  I don't think "protection" is the proper term here.  As I said before, I think it's a question of having more than 1 or 2 or 3 guys you can count on, ie, line-up depth.  One guy behind Nate or Ryan won't make them hit 30 points better, in my opinion; but having a deeper line-up might relieve some of the pressure on them to do it all.

@Lion43--No problem.  Anyone who posts on a public site leaves themselves open to criticism.  Just keep it civil.  Civil disagreement should be a hallmark of our culture. It is sad that most people can't seem to discuss other issues as well we discuss baseball and the Pirates.

@Cave

I'll be that dentist's favorite movie was "Marathon Man."  He reminds me of the father at my daughter's soccer camp last summer who told his crying 5 year-old son to "man up."  

@JAL

"The big key for next year will be having starting pitchers with ERAs under 4."

I definitely agree with some of what you wrote in that comment, however, not sure if you noticed it or not-there is currently only 46 starting pitchers in all of MLB that have sub 4 ERAs (that is only around 1.5 each team) & Maholm is our only one-that I think would seem to prove that this is the 'age of hitting/slugging' & makes for even more of an argument that Bay/Nady shipping out may cost us dearly.

Concerned and AL,I really think if they could get the team ERA down to even 4.30 they would have a chance of a much better record.Even at that they would be cutting almost a run a game. I am a big fan of J.Andrews,and think if he is given something to work with he would do fine.I know what a lot of other baseball ,Derek Lowe for instance,think of him.But the under achievers on that staff,along with being stuck with Morris at the start really tied his hands. They have to get a proven veteran in there to hold a staff together,plus a couple of guys,names not needed I am sure,to get their stuff together and produce,or they are going to have big problems again next season. A pitching coach can only do as well as the talent he has to work with.Think about this : when was the last time you heard Leo Mazzone's name mentioned after he left Atlanta ?

Dejan, I have a suggestion for a new blog post:

Guess the Q&A identities.  You have to guess which posters ask Q's and who we are!

Wow... so Pirates baseball.  I'm hoping that some of the depth will show up at spring training in 2009... Beyond hope...

@ Dejan Kovacevic  wrote re: Morning links: Some CC leftovers

on 09-01-2008 7:05 PM

"Chris, are you Chris L. who sends stuff in to the Q&A?"

Dejan, I am aghast

:o....outing a commenter on a blog is definitely not cool & is a blogging101 violation - KIDDING - hehe

;-p

Seriously though, you need to use some of those 'investigative journalism skills' of yours to 'tag' us commenters - I would start with your webbies - more than likely they could give you some IP matchup assistance + the 'cookies' would probably be worth a peek

Sincerely,

CC

a fellow 'Dejanaise' member :)

@Lion43

I guess what makes me irritated about this year & the trades of Nady & Bay is that I still think this year was an aberration-No way Snell is this bad - even Gorzellany will rebound. Duke is what Duke is-Maholm has steadied himself nicely---I mean do the bucs even know about the 'sophomore jinx'?

I mean what would have happened to the history of the Pirates if NH & FC were at the helm in the late 80s - let's say they panicked when VanSlyke (fresh off a season 1988-where he hit .288 with a .506 slugging pct-23 2B, 15 3B & 25 HRs) hits .237 with a .370 slugging pct in 1989 (18 2B, 9 3B & 9 HRs)-he was 28 at the time. Would this current ownership have sought an upgrade over him because of one bad year (injury plagued)? How would that have changed the 1990/1991/1992 division championships? We all know how they went, however, I do not believe we get there without Andy Van.

Concerned..." Would this current ownership have sought an upgrade over him because of one bad year " I am not sure who you are trying to parallel here with Van Slyke ? Bay maybe ? That is like trying to compare apples and oranges if so.They weren't going to be able to keep Bay at the end of his contract,he is going to get $ 's comparable to what Vernon Wells got from the Jays,and at the age he will be at,it wouldn't make sense. If they were getting rid of him for 1 bad year,he would have gone after the '07 season.I don't think you are making a valid comparison at all.As for the pitching,I don't think you know enough about the 3 guys you mentioned previous history.Snell is and has been somewhat of a headcase going back over his minor league days,Gorzelanny has always beeen labeled as " soft ",and labels get there for a reason ! Duke just doesn't have an out pitch,it was pretty easy to see,even here in Altoona.If a guy didn't stand there and take the breaking ball on the outside corner,for a 3d strike,he couldn't strike him out.And sometimes you have to do that.His control was his outstanding feature,and Major League hitters know how to adjust to that.They wait for the pitch they want,and then they hit .310 against him !