Brewers formally protest scoring decision

should have been an error and there is no doubt about it

John Russell just lost all of my respect for him, not that he cares what I think. He should have said something besides no, when asked about the hit that should have been called an error. He needs to start saying it like it is and wake these guys up and quit being a company guy. If he doesn't he will be gone soon, for his lack of leadership.

An official scorer's nightmare to cap a nightmarish month for Pirate fans...Yost doesn't mince words, sometimes to the scorn of the media.  Who can blame him today?

goota give Andy credit though..he told it like it is

whatever happened to "make the first hit a clean one"

Yost needs to get over it.  They will have other chances next month.  

That's baseball.  

DK

Do you know if a one hitter has ever been turned into a no hitter via a ruling reversal after the game was over?

the way those guys swing the bats, CC could have pitched 5 more innings with no-hits. The scorer made a decision and any other time n obody would have complained. What's the big deal about no-hitting this pathetic sad bunch of bums

My respect and admiration is growing for CC. He handles issues like this in a truly professional manner. No crying or moaning from him 'it is what it is'

Hope they change it for him,cause it's the right thing to do.

I missed the game today but caught the ninth inning and saw a replay of the 'hit' by LaRoche. I don't think it was a hit and I don't think it would have been scored a hit in Milwaukee. But there's the rub - there is such a trend in MLB for home scorers to score in favor of the home team. I don't know if that happened in this case, but I have seen some pretty ridiculous scoring decisions and without fail they benefited the home team's batting average or ERA. Anybody else seeing this or am I afloat in conspiracy theories? lol

photoby

You are spot on.

The last thread is dead, so I'll repeat here that the "hit" should be overturned. That's too bad if the final decision rests with Webb, because he it looks like he's more interested in selling his original bad call. He had time enough to reflect before Dejan interviewed him. Now he's probably too far down that road. Still, I'd take my hat off to him and bow if he actually thinks better of this and makes the wrong a right.

I don't know that a 1 hitter has ever been changed to a no hitter, but I remember back in 1998, there was a very questionable hit call that went against Kerry Wood on the day he struck out 20 batters.  It was a grounder that hit off Kevin Orie's glove.  Afterward, I know the Cubs tried to have it changed, and I think Orie even tried to track down the official scorer, but the call stood.  

And as for the call on the field, I think it's total garbage.  How that is a hit, I'll never know.  Bob Webb needs to admit he screwed this one up.  It's a real shame to rob CC Sabathia of the no-hitter for that masterpiece he threw today.

What does this Karstens guy have that the games he plays in always seems to end with almost-no-hitters?

(If LaRoche's "hit" stands, the Bucs will maintain the "third" position: only the Reds and Bucs have been no-hit-free for longer.)

Boy, it's a really good think the team took that "bonus batting practice" today.

Also a repeat from last thread as I didn't realize it was dead:

Thought this take from Alan Robinson of the AP on ESPN was interesting. For the record, I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing as I have not seen the play, but I do think his point in the second paragraph with respect to pitching with no pressure has some validity. I also think that Sabathia handled the situation with a lot of class (much better than when Bruce Kison shook his fist at the official scorer many moons ago!)

>> Despite the Brewers’ protests, the play in question is routinely called a hit and fielders often get angry when they are called for errors on easier plays. The Associated Press polled eight writers who have reported on the majors for 10 years or more, and six would have called it a hit.

Also, Sabathia pitched with almost no pressure with a multiple-run lead in the seventh, eighth and ninth innings, which wouldn’t have been the case if he had a no-hitter going and every late-innings pitch would have been critical.

Sabathia accepted the scoring call calmly, blaming himself for LaRoche getting on.

“The ball was still rolling and I probably should have picked it up with my glove. We probably wouldn’t be having this conversation,” Sabathia said. “I think if I pick it up with my glove, I get him.” <<

I say screw the Brewers.  The official scorer made the call as all official scorers make calls every day -- they're judgement calls.  Sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong.  Sabathia still pitched a great game; whether it's a no-hitter or a one-hitter, what's the difference?  Who can even remember the last no-hitter pitched in the majors?  Individual statistics don't really matter except when it's contract time and C.C. doesn't have to worry about his next contract at all.

I saw the replay on the news, and my first thought was "hit."  It seems to me that these little check swing "how do you do jobs" are typically ruled hits.  Unless you have a catcher or other slow runner at bat, it takes a really good play to get the out.

"...or other slow runner at bat..."

LaRoche IS a slow runner.

That was not a hit. What's right is right.

No way to the no-no...

Sabathia didn't have to feel any of the pressure another pitcher knowingly going after the no-hitter would feel and I think that it would be a disservice to recategorize his performance after the fact.

Yeh, it was an error but once the ruling was made then everything else thereafter necessarily changes.

It wasn't enough for the Brewers to murder our Bucs three straight.  No, they have to rub our faces in the dirt too.  Sounds like our players just take a pounding with a "oh well."  They need to be MAD that they have lost 10 straight.  They don't need to be praising their opponents that just stepped on their private parts.  

Andy probably needed the hit more than CC needed the no hitter.

All right, if that's what you guys need to feel better. Myself, I want my players to earn their hits. And there's nothing wrong with giving an opponent his due recognition. Denial doesn't help you get better.

"All right, if that's what you guys need to feel better. Myself, I want my players to earn their hits. And there's nothing wrong with giving an opponent his due recognition. Denial doesn't help you get better.'

JL -- who are "you guys?"  For my part, my comment was pure cynicism.  

"The definition requires that standard effort is required, and that would have taken more than an ordinary effort."

Umm,did he not witness the one-handed spear of Nate McLouth's soft liner in the bottom of the 4th?! I think that required more effort and athleticism  than the little dribbler!!!

It just keeps getting better and better, Alvarez, Boras, 10 in a row and now this.  Once again, has this ever happened before??

It's Not Unusual (Tom Jones)---During many games where there has been "cheap" hit announcers talk about wanting someone to get a "clean" hit so a no-hitter isn't stopped by the less than quality hit.  In the course of season many players get hits that are not hit hard.  Would anyone be talking about this if if it wasn't the only hit (and a hit is what it is because that is what was scored).  This is one even instant replay would not clear up.  I have the seen the play on ESPN and it could have been called either way.  Was it a play that could have been made--yes.  Was it a simple play-no.  The scorer had no doubt--the hit went up immediately.  It will be interesting to see if MLB has a different opinion but, as DK's story says--the scorer doesn't have to change the call even if MLB says they think it was an error.

Pirates getting in the news for all the wrong reasons.  Appeals, losses, Alvarez.  About time for something positive to happen.

JHadar,

Yes, I got the cycnism.

My comment was directed to the guys who don't like our players calling like it is, and the guys who deny it was a "no-no", explaining it away by saying Sabathia pitched the rest of the game without the pressure of a no-hitter. The fact remains (Webb notwithstanding), Sabathia allowed no hits today and made one error.

JAL,

"Pirates getting in the news for all the wrong reasons.  Appeals, losses, Alvarez.  About time for something positive to happen."

You'll get no argument from me there.

You can call me Oliver Stone, but I agree with Photoby.  Not only do I agree that the alleged hit should have been scored an error, but I've been amazed at other calls as well.  I go to about 40 games a year and keep score at many of them.  There's been many a time I've had to erase an E and replace it with 1B.  Glad to see this month come to an end.  RIP.  

good to see that all the blurbs are about whether or not the team got a hit or not...how about the fact that this team may well be one of the worst in this infamous losing streak seasons we are are on........where is the accountability?

mgt is in way over their head......remember when pbc said that it did not want to lose the good feeling that the fans had about the team during the first half..when folks actually followed the game....it wnated to stay competitve...but they went out and gutted this team.....ok--they had the right to do so...but by not getting  2 or 3  great prospects in return-like they said they would if the got rid of bay and nady--pbc has pi--ed away a buch of fan good will--meaning less tiks, less advertising revs..less coin--theoretically--to make this team better

the team now is a joke-- pbc way overrrated its ability to make good trades.....the salary dump is what it is..and wilson is next ..what a joke of a team..and a lot  of you think this is good--wake up...the team needs to be sold..the clowns owning and running it have no idea what they are doing....this team will look like the pirates of the 70s considering what they will play like next yr--- all in the name of putting more money in the pockets of the owners....they are hoping they lose that arbo...and save the 6 mill...if this were the steelers or pens the fans would be picketing the venue..all most of you do is sugar coat the obvious....THE ORGANIZATION IS A JOKE--AND THE MANAGEMENT TEAM IS BEING RUN BY A GUY WHOSE PREVIOUS JOB WAS TO SAVE MONEY FOR THE OWNERS AND A GM WHO WAS DEMOTED AT CLEVELAND ....and we rip littlefield? no way he takes the fall for all of this...bay and nadey were on his watch too and mcclouth and doumit and maholm..we got feet of clay andy laroche and a cast of indistinguishables,,,,and the mgr is a company man...he is used to losing and is lucky to have a big league job,,,this will not get any better

Hapless alert!

TSN.ca: "Sabathia dominates hapless Pirates"

www.tsn.ca/.../story

But can we blame them?

Thanks JL -- appreciate the clarification.

I thought Andy said the right thing.  So did Sabathia.  Right or wrong the managers had their player's backs.  

After everything else that has happened it seems to me like a tempest in a teapot.  We got humiliated with a one-hitter on a squib hit or we got humiliated with a no-hitter.  

Honestly, I'm much more worried about Wilson's jammed finger than I am about a judgment call.

I will say that I did not see the play. I will say that in all of the baseball that I have watched since the 1970's, I have never seen an error called when a fielder tried to bare hand a ball and not pick it up. It has always been a hit. I have also seen ball sbobbled by fielders called hits and there has never been any complaints against the official scorer. It was ruled a hit and the Brewers are goinmg to have to live with it. Ask them to trade the win for the no hitter and see how many agree to the trade. If they do, they are lliars.

Ron D,

Buried in your rant are points with which I agree:

"...pbc way overrrated its ability to make good trades.....the salary dump is what it is..."

"...and we rip littlefield? no way he takes the fall for all of this...bay and nady were on his watch too..."

But mostly,

"....where is the accountability?"

I'm going to indulge myself and quote what I posted on the last thread:

"Along with beating my drum for the retainment of Doug Mientkiewicz, I have a new campaign:

I demand "accountability" from the new front office."

The new mantra--aimed squarely at the two who've been preaching it.

How about this Joe Morgan thinks that the rules contain a provision that"the first hit should always be a clean hit"

JL-- dont wait for those 2 to respond anytime soon..thye are kind of busy with the #1 draft pick situation they screwed up..and lied to the fans to by the way for 2 weeks

saw that even tho the brewers played our mixed AAA/AA club today....we still had 22 grand of people that want to be tortured for 3 hrs..that polka band must have been rreally good..

I just saw the play at the Pirates web site. This is one of those plays I mentioned in my last post. Those are always called hits. I have never seen one of those called an error even though LaRoche woould have been out.

Let's review the comments about instant replay and now compare what people say about this hit/no hit today?

If you are against instant replay then the call stands as is.  Argument is the umpires and scorers have always made mistakes and we yell about it and life goes on.

If your for instant replay then the call should be reviewed and determined corectly whatever that may be.

But instant replay is not being used for this type of play. The play was made.no made and teh call for a hit/error was made so that is what it is.  we if agree to the call or not!

This would open another can of worms to change it.  Many in baseball would want to go back and change calls of this type for past plays.    Are we to chane this part of the game as well?  

Boy oh boy, why don't we just scrape all rules and basebal until we get the draft worked out, the signing of college and high school players, the Union, the cap, the agents and every little nuance of the game fixed?

That's my rant for the day without coming down on either side of this issue.

Define a clean hit.  What nobody comes near the ball?  Or they can be close but not touch it in any way?

What if you play the outfield in and a light ball was sent to right filed and it's a slow runner running to first.

Let's see the fielder plays the ball but throws softly to first and misses the runner by an inch.  Is it a hit or error on the fielder for throwing to softly?

ron_d -

>>we still had 22 grand of people that want to be tortured for 3 hrs.<<

To me, almost as incredulous as the pathetic team play is that we are drawing crowds like that. The team went 7-21 this month. Did we sell that many tickets prior to 8/1 and people just didn't want them to go to waste? I remember, two years ago, hearing a story (urban legend?) about the Steelers when they were losing. A fan left some tickets on his windshield in the stadium parking lot because he had no one to go with him, thinking someone would take them and use them. When he returned there were even more tickets on his windshield. Sounds like what should be happening right now for the Bucs.

To many scenario’s in baseball would have to be reviewed.

smokey_burgess said

"should have been an error and there is no doubt about it"

Yes there IS doubt about it apparently. There is only one thing to say and Cave said it-"That's baseball."

No whiners.

If Sabathia had fielded the ball with his glove, like he should have, it would have been a routine put out. Bob Walk called it so at the time, and Sabathia, himself, admits he should have used his glove. Poor fundamentals cost him the play and should have been ruled an error.

@madturk2008-A clean hit--hmmmm--Most people seem to see a clean hit as one as no fielder had a no good chance to get an out on.  Still subjective.  I could be wrong here but don't they only give errors on commission, not omission?   If the catcher moves out to field a squeeze bunt and turn to throw home but no one is covering home do they give an error to whoever was supposed to cover home?  

I actually was at the game (sorry ron_d, they're still my team and I'll still go watch themas often as I can) but was sitting on the first base side so I couldn't clearly see Sabathia's attempt at the "hit."

But what did amaze me - as DK points out in his story - was the speed with which it was ruled a hit. That, to me, made it a clear homer call. It definitely deserved a second look.

Obviously Webb was looking for any excuse to post a hit and didn't want to be bothered with double-checking whether it really was or not.

G-man--Maybe they were a mix of Brewer fans and masochists.  Might not some consider us masochists for continuing to read and write about the team :)

If there were 22,000 there after all this, then baseball isn't dead in Pittsburgh. The team may be.  Nobody is arguing that this team is good.  

Trading talent for prospects is risky and some trades are going to blow up in your face.  It doesn't seem to happen to other teams because they already have a minor league system in place and can work around their blunders.  The Pirates do not have that luxury.  

Nonetheless, as bad as things are going right now, the process they are trying to implement is right.  I don't see how scapegoating management for the mess the previous regime left is helpful.  It's the nature of the game that most of the guys in the minors won't make it -- ever.  It's the nature of the game that most sure-fire prospects go bad.  It's the nature of the game that every year some players over-perform and some under-perform.  

If you want to blame people -- how about this:  the pitching staff, especially the starters threw the season away and caused our two best hitters to get traded?  Or how about Bixler -- if he had gone home and we had that early game against the Cubs we'd have hit .500 early in the season and everybody would have confidence instead of the frustration of always falling a game short, we would have been in contention and have won some other games and we wouldn't have had to trade Bay and Nady.  If you think about it, doesn't it all go back to previous ownership's decision to let Bonds go because they had made a rash promise to Van Slyke that he would always be the highest paid guy on the squad?  Didn't the pulling in of the financial reins begin with the Meares/Bell/Kendall contracts?  

Anger and frustration leads to the urge to start looking for scapegoats.  Success does not require we pin down the blame -- it requires that we fix the problem.  The whole thing, not just a couple of patches on the big club.  We need scouting, we need prospects, we need coaching, we need Latin American Operations, and on and on.

I know we're not all in agreement on that, but we all know that the club on the field now is not only bad, but they can't seem to catch a break either.  

Ron, et al.,  What I would like to hear is what you think we ought to do about it.  Something better than just give up if you have a solution.

I've officially scored game at the high school, college and pro level and I can't think of one time I have ever called that play an error. The reason is that according to the official rules of scoring you only credit an error when a player messes up something that takes ordinary effort. That play is not an "ordinary" effort play. If CC makes the play, ask yourself the following question. Would you have just though routine play or would you have though nice play. If you thought nice play then it IS NOT an error. Also think this. When the ball was hit, did you automatically think out. If you did then it would be an error. If you thought that it wasn't automatic then no error. The benefit of the doubt there always goes to the hitter. Always.

Ron, et al.,  What I would like to hear is what you think we ought to do about it.  Something better than just give up if you have a solution.

SELL THE TEAM

Well....I am no longer objective. Rather than implicitly formulating a view from the multitude of reactions I have read, I have now seen the play and believe that it should have been an error.

That said, it was close and I can see how it could have been interpreted differently.  In the final analysis, a lot of people on here saw it as a hit and the article on ESPN references that six out of eight former MLB score keepers would have called it a hit, which lends credence to that view. Conversely, a lot of people saw it as an error, which just so happens to jibe with my opinion in this case.

At the end of the day it is a grey area which calls for judgement and there appear to be reasonably compelling arguments on both sides. The only wrong call on this one in my estimation is the one which paints the issue as black and white and leaves no room for differing interpretations.

Nonetheless, from the perspective of the Pirates I think JHadar might have put it best when he wrote:

>> After everything else that has happened it seems to me like a tempest in a teapot.  We got humiliated with a one-hitter on a squib hit or we got humiliated with a no-hitter. <<

Oh how I yearn for the days of The Lumber Company.

Wow - two blogs worth of posts about a hit versus an error.  

WHO CARES.  We lost 7-0.  Does it really matter if they got credited for a no-hitter or not?

And, from some of the posts, somehow in all that, it is almost made to the Pirates fault?

Anyone now want to blame Bob Nutting for the call too?  He gets criticism for everything else that happens, might as well put this one on his shoulders too.

Good post, JHadar.

Consider coming into 2008, Tampa Bay had 10 consecutive losing seasons, all with at least 91 losses.

The Brewers, prior to 2007, hadn't been over. 500 in 14 seasons.

The now great Aramis Ramirez hit .234 with an OPS+ of 72 and 19 errors when he was 24 years old, the same age as Andy LaRoche is today.

Obviously there are more points to be made on this side, and plenty on the other side, too.

But my point is, the team actually has a plan now, and it doesn't involve 36-year-old retreads in the outfield.

The new management deserves at least a year or two with this group to see whether the scouting before the trades was worth anything. It's impossible to tell right now with young guys thrown into the fire with a handful of veterans upset about having the season go down the tubes with the trades.

Was Neil Huntingdon's Alvarez deal an error or was it a hit for Boras or vice versa

I think someone brought this up - but I think it bears repeating.

If that WAS ruled an error, how can you also assume that the rest of the game he still no hits the Pirates?  It was given up in the bottom of the 5th.

It is possible that he could have thought about it more in the later innings, and given up a hit.  

TPenaRules and JHadar....

I am in total agreement with you guys.

This Pirate ship is not going to be turned around overnight.  Let's give the new guys at least SOME chance to try to restock our totally barren system!

If the play could have been made and CC did not make the play, does he deserve the honor of a no hitter?  If he really deserved this no hitter, he should have made the play.  There would be no argument if he made the play and it was an out.  If the play was too hard to make, well than it should be a hit.  If the play was easy enough that he should have made the play, then why didn't he?

When you put the judgement into the hands of the official scorer, you take away your opportunity to control the outcome.  If he makes the out, there is no argument.  

I would be more sympathetic if he lost a no hitter because his third baseman booted an easy grounder, but since he was directly involved in the play, not so much.  Also, you cannot play the if game.  Because "if" that is not called a hit, who knows how the rest of the game turns out?  More pressure?  Different approaches with batters?  It would not be a true no hitter.  No hitters are rare enough that they should be earned in every way.  Better luck next time CC.  This is not a fluke that he got this close to a no hitter.  He will have more chances.

Just for the record Stevie Wonder had it as an error.I started counting to see how many times the Brewer announcers were gonna keep bring it up.I counted 17 at least.The one kept saying "if it's a mistake correct it.The same announcer that keeps mispronoucing Sanchez's for 2 full seasons.Every time Moe and Shemp come to PNC they complain about the press box being too high up.I mean they bring it up MANY times every game.But if you think about it doesn't the paying public deserve a good seat instead of the knuckleheads that are lucky enough to be paid to watch a game?They get food sent in,no lines at the restrooms(oh yeah they complained cause the restrooms were too far away too)and get to rub elbows with some great ball players.I just think some announcers think their opinions are better than us.Not too far from some ball players who think their crap don't stink.In closing I would like to add these announcers are only washed up ex players who are no better than you or me.BTW do a little homework and learn to pronounce the players names ,IT'S PART OF THE JOB.

Dejan: Speaking only for myself, you are welcome any time to clarify or correct something we we say from ignorance.  

Great job keeping us up to date on things.  

@moneytalks-"It is possible that he could have thought about it more in the later innings, and given up a hit."

Exactly--everything that happens in game affects thought and strategy the rest of the game.  I always cringe when an announcer says about an early inning play, "If he had made that play we would have won."  not necessarily--a pitcher with a 1 run lead may not throw the same set of pitches as one with a two run lead.  Offense might sacrifice down 1 and not down 2.

Also agree that the team needs more time.  Only time a trade can be evaluated quickly if the player you got suffers a career ending injury.  In three years the players obtained in the Bay and Nady trades may   be an integral part a winning team.  We just don't know.  After 5 starts Karstens has the best ERA among the starters--will he pitch this well for several years or not?  Stay tuned!

DK join in any time.

Good to hear from ya.

I know in my comment I should have clarified my use of instant replay.  Yes the scorer usually does use replay and can and have made corrections on plays they ruled.  From your comments that the guy in question did just that and still believes he made the right call then that his call.

I just don't think the league should use replay and change the call.  I don't think that is being done now.  Scorer yes, league no.  

Nobody cares about complete games anymore....

Certainly managers, the main culprits, do not.  "I don't manage to please the fans.  I manage to win."  -- Lloyd McClendon.

Heck, if you even dare hope for one, you get scolded.  "I've ceased arguing this point with people.  Baseball  is not about complete games.  It's about winning games."  -- Bob Smizik.

...So why should anybody care about a no-hitter anymore?  The Brewers won.

Nats keep it going!!!

'09 draft standings:

1. Nats 52-85  (won 6 in a row)

2. Pads/M's  53-83   1 1/2 back

4. KC/Bucs  57-79  5 1/2 out!

6. ATL 59-78  7 back

7. SF 59-77    7 1/2 out

Everyone else has at least 61 wins so no danger there.

26 games left, 16 on the road.  Still have the last weekend in SD, but if we keep this pace up, it wont be needed.  We'll be 1st or 2nd long before that weekend.  Kansas City is the stubborn team, they keep losing right along with us.  The teams "ahead" of us are the ones that are hot right now and have allowed us to make this interesting.

I took my son to the game today and told him before hand that with CC pitching he might see a no hitter. I was almost right but I guess I didn't really go out on a limb.

I truely expected the "hit" to be reversed. I don't think it involved an extrordinary effort to get AL at first. CC was there in plenty of time and all he had to do was pick up the ball and throw. It wouldn't even have been a close play, LaRoche is SLOOOOO!

Nevertheless, I don't care for the Brewers so tough luck Yost.

Ron -- Sell the team = Give up.

Same question, after the new owners take over, what do you propose they do?  How are they going to fix the situation?  

You've made some valid observations about the current state of affairs, but what do you think would work better than what they're trying?  Different people doing the same thing? Different people doing something else?  If so, what would that something else be?

Way too much discussion here on whether it was a hit or not.  It doesn't matter; it's just a statistic!  They award pennants for winning games, without regard to how you win them.  (No hitters are like candy, just something sweet for the kids.)

What does matter is winning!  And in some regard, it is nice to see a true small market team winning.  Now our GM and his staff have to learn to evaluate talent so that we can do the same thing.  That's what really matters!!

Base hit, no different than a thirdbaseman or catcher makingt that play

JHadar wrote re: Brewers formally protest scoring decision

on Mon, Sep 1 2008 4:08 AM

Ron -- Sell the team = Give up.

Same question, after the new owners take over, what do you propose they do?  How are they going to fix the situation?  

You've made some valid observations about the current state of affairs, but what do you think would work better than what they're trying?  Different people doing the same thing? Different people doing something else?  If so, what would that something else be?

new owners will spend the dough to get better players....by hiring real executives to run the club..experienced baseball men who have been successful in the past..not people learning the job as fans get tortured even more

they'll spend money...free agency....they'll go after high end guys (they will spend what it takes to get the club rolling ---then use draft to lay future foundations)--better scouting (not keeping scouts from the past)...better coaches...mgrs.....is this that hard to comprehend (that means understand) .....put down the bobbleheads.....its a basic business model--- you have to spend money to make money...money=better mgt=better players = free agency = more winning= more fans and more revs into club=money for owners

and dont say free agents wont come here-- why wouldnt you-- if you pay them and since they is no pressure here they'll come ......

Kudos to CC for pitching a great game, and to accepting the scoring decision, knowing he would have made the play more routine if he'd gloved it.

As for the Brewers (and the earlier posts about home-team scoring and scoring changes) - the Brewers have already won one appeal to MLB to overturn a scroing decision this season, which did nothing but help their team, and a player, improve their stats.  They're whiners as much as they are winners.

there are two reason we are in this shape and that is poor drafting and no signings of Latin players. Think about it,,,since barry bonds came up I can only think of one player, maybe two that came up and made an impact and thats Jason Kendall and Aramis Ramirez. No team can survive 15-20 years of barren drafts.

so yeah we have mcclouth and doumit and maholm on the big team and walker and mccutcheon in the minors but really...20 years of ineptitude

let me add that I think NH is addressing these problems quite well, but only time will tell.I for one think he will succeed but will there be any fans left who care?

New management traded Torres, Bay, Nady and Marte.

Were not sure how were going to make out with the draft picks, Alvarez (if we have him), etc.

Every team has prospects, not that big of a deal.

We should of kept what we had and added, not subtracted.

We need a new owner!  This was a salary dump, I can't believe most of you don't understand this.

rod d, knows what is going on..................

I agree smokey.  And I'll still be care!

Jimmy O - to add you have to have something to give (at least as far as trades), we didn't.  Pretty simple.

on the hit- if you are a baseball purist, my gawd what are you doing with this team blog tonite? we love the team when they are up [I vaguely remember those days] and, much like a puppy in house training, teen in driver's ed, or first semester freshman getting their grades, we love them when they are down. toughlove, but we are still here, aren't we.

cc isn't exactly the model infielder physique. I like him, but dude, he isn't making that play. he acts like a man in his interview, something our guys need to do. I like him until he becomes a yankee.

speaking of the yankees, while I would rather get my jolly roger from our success, I can still enjoy baseball via the demise of the yankees, another great pitching staff collapse, cano is tanking, giambi can't find a new pharmacist, and the front office is daily harassed in the papers.

I am all for the waiting game for the new brass- I am happy to look for growth next year and .500 in 2010, but we know the real first judgment of this group is september 10.

diehard,  

You add in the draft (if you do in right), free agency, etc.

You don't give up your best players for some prospects that were given up by other teams.

There is no guarantee the new specs will do anything, look at Castillo, Bautista, Bradley, Van Benschoten, Burnett, Paulino etc.

You don't trade Jason Bay for a third baseman like LaRoche, a A pitcher Morris who already had Tommy John surgery,  a pitcher who don't throw strikes  Hanson and Brandon Moss.

While I appreciate those who claim the 'ordinary effort' clause as being fuel for the decision bob webb made, I still think it requires knowledge of the facts surrounding the play:

1. And MOST IMPORTANT was that it was sluggish sloth Lil La running down the baseline & he was maybe 30-35FT down the line by the time CC attempts to grab it - If it was Nyjer Morgan running down the line, than I doubt anyone questions it. Even if CC takes multiple stabs at it, he still probably throws out Lil La by about 5 feet.

2. Since I was aware that Lil La was at the plate, when he checked his swing the first thing I thought of was 'out'

What other team could have this much negative things happen to them in one month's time - thank god it is September

Our young team was really beginning to gel. It was greater than the sum of it's part--I repeat-- GREATER THAN THE SUM OF ITS PARTS. Doubters can just compare the first half offense to now.  And incredible as it may seem, compare the first half won-loss record (horrible pitching and all) with the second half record.

This regime panicked when the pitching fell over a cliff in July. Yes, Littlefield left the minor league cupboard bare. But it takes a leap of faith to believe it's much stronger now, and all at the expense of the best offensive major league team the Pirates have seen since... I can't even say how long.

I'm not ready to sell the team like Ron d. But he does have a very valid point that the new regime is screwing it up and only making things worse. Will I be happy if July's acquisitions pan out and make us stronger in the long run? I'LL BE DELIGHTED. But there's no evidence or reason to take this leap of faith. We already HAD stars on this team--the kind you can only HOPE prospects develop into. Now the biggest ones are gone and McClouth, Doumit, etc. have been chopped off at the knees because  of chain effects.

How, might you ask, were we to add pitching and depth in general to the system? For starters, I never believed that this team's pitching was as truly bad as it seemed mid-summer. Snell is a fighter who wants to win and recently has been turning it around. Duke too. Admittedly, Gorzelanny is a mystery to me. But Dumatrait looked promising (Snell even called him the team's stopper, at one point) until he got hurt and kept pitching. Hel'll be back. Jason Davis, maybe or maybe not is a near-term solution, and was in our system all along. Maholm is Maholm. The badly needed depth in minors we seek can't be achieved overnight. Foremostly, we need to draft better. (I won't even go into this year's draft follies.) Furthermore, more pickups like Dumatrait, Davis --can only help. And both with pitchers AND every-day players WE NEED TO HOLD ON TALENT WHEN IT ACTUALLY IS ON THE ROSTER.

That means NOT trading away Jason Schmidt (AND John Vander Wal, for Pete's sake) for Armando Rios and Ryan Vogelson. No Salomon Torres for Marino Salas and Kevin Roberts deals. No Kenny Lofton and ARAMIS RAMIREZ for.... oh, you get it.

I'm not a Luddite. Maybe, say, the X-Man had to be traded (though I don't give The Regime the benefit of the doubt on anything, right now). We can't keep everybody. But certainly don't trade Jason Bay. Just to give some perspective, Boston has talked big about dealing Manny Ramirez for years. But  they kept him and won world championships with him. Yet they traded him away... along with Craig Hanson...  and Brandon Moss JUST TO GET Jason Bay. That's how valuable the Red Sox's view Jason Bay. And I think the Epstein & Co. know a little something about running a team.

Of course, keeping the Bay's will cost money. But Nutting and The Regime swear up and down they're ready to up spending when it makes sense. I'll believe it when I see it.

To wrap this up, I don't yet say throw the bums out, a la Ron d. Rome wasn't built in a day. But that cuts both ways. And The Regime isn't just fiddling as Rome now burns. They're throwing gasoline on the fire...having fire sales...pick your mixed metaphor.

Oh yeah...

RESIGN DOUG MIENTKIEWICZ!!!!!

JAL -

>>Might not some consider us masochists<<

I can't argue with you on that. I, myself, wonder why I spend so many hours on this blog in the last couple of weeks. Perhaps one reason is "misery loves company" and you guys and gals here make pretty good company.

@Chicken on the Hill with Will  wrote re: Morning links: Some CC leftovers

on 09-01-2008 7:36 PM

"I agree with your statement..."

Ahh, I love those trailing dots :-P, oh wait, he did go on to say more

"about the unwritten code, but I don't see where it is applicable when the game is not even half over. The play occured with nobody out in the fifth, not with two outs in the ninth. In Webb's defense, how could he have known that the Pirates were going to be so punchless the rest of the way? In addition, I think it would have been unfortunate for him to have to succumb to pressure later in the game to change his call just because the Pirates continued to flail away so "hap-deprivedly", when he was so steadfast in his belief that it was an error. I think it took a lot more courage for him to stick to his guns later in the game than change the call for the purpose of preserving anonymity."

My feeling is that there is NO situation in which the scorer should make that call the way he did, he should have ruled it an error, than if the bucs were to have a solid hit at some point, simply go back & rule it a hit. That, my friend, IS the unwritten code. Plus, I must say, it does not do much for BW's case because it almost looked like he wasn't even paying attention to this game. No offense, but, if you were truly watching this game closely, it wouldn't take a clairvoyant to tell that the bucs were on their way to being no-hit (and yes that could be determined as early as the fourth,heck, some wise fella actually did PREDICT this event)

community.post-gazette.com/.../today-pirates-brewers-8-31-08.aspx

"I live in Houston now and witnessed many a questionable hit vs. error call while Biggio was pursuing his quest for 3,000 hits. He did not need the extra help he was given by the home-team official scorer and I'm sure that he was inwardly a bit embarrassed by some of the blatant favoritism. "

You are correct about this-Biggio probably did get his fair shots of errors turned singles due to homefield scorer advantage....that I guess is my biggest problem in all of this, does Lil La's hit go as an error in Miller Park? In 29 other ballparks? If so, than 'Houston, we may have a problem'

Ned Yost should remember one thing, "There is no crying in baseball".

The scorer ruled, move on.