Pirates Q&A: Whose clock was right?

DK glad you brought the clock issue up.  Just a question about the post time of our bloggers comments.  The time stamp is way way off.  Is it just my computer that this is happening on or do others see this as well?

DK,

I think you may have just inadvertently stumbled upon the slogan on the next T-shirt tuesday night at the ballyard:

"It takes a special breed to follow the Pirates. It really does."

That is a lot catchier then "let go bucs" - i'd head down to get one of those tshirts and wear it with pride.

My comment at 1:35pm today on this post shows 6:36pm?

madturk2008 wrote re: Pirates Q&A: Whose clock was right?

on Thu, Aug 28 2008 6:36 PM

madturk2008, your time zone is likely not set right.  Go to the top of the page, right hand corner, and click 'edit'.   Click the second tab, 'site options'.  Second group is time zone.

madturk2008, you need to go into your profile and change your timezone.

Totally off subject, but saw this from Peter Gammons. Might the Pirates reconsider John Van Benschoten

• In 2005, the Astros took Brian Bogusevic in the first round as a left-handed pitcher after a two way career at Tulane. When Bogusevic took batting practice in Houston, Jeff Bagwell opined that the kid ought to try hitting for power.

Well, Bogusevic is now an outfielder, hitting .345 with a 1.022 OPS in Double-A. "Rick Ankiel showed it can be done," says one baseball man. "Now with Bogusevic and Adam Loewen converting, there is a trend towards giving two-way kids a chance to succeed as position players if the pitching doesn't work out."

madturk

You should go to your settings for your profile and change the time zone. It will still not be exact to the minute, but it won't be off by hours!

jbrindger - JVB might be past the age where he could turn it around. He's been out of the hitting game for a pretty long time at this point.

jbrindger - Not gonna happen.  Even JVB has admitted that, after surgery on both shoulders, there's no power left.

How will this case be known as in a few years? Maybe "Operation Shutdown 2"?

@wvbucco

@meestro

@matt the rat

Thank you all, I fugured it had to be me in someway...  LOL

madturk - haha didn't mean to shoot down your point. It's a cool story at least.

This is so bizaar that i cannot wrap my head around it.

either way, attendance will be way down next year.

i for 1 am not going again unti they are over 500 after may

This is coming from out of left field. (No, not a cutoff throw from Moss.) People in this blog have called Boras just about everything you can say in a family newspaper. But no one has compared him to an ACLU lawyer. So, consider it done.

stealer6 - It's gonna be hard to attendance to be "way down" from where it is now...

What is weird is that if this has nothing to do with Alvarez or Boras or the Pirates - and is just a procedural matter between MLB and the union - then why is Alvarez the only one doing a no-show here (unlike Hosmer et al who are already playing in the minors)? Why is Boras involved at all and saying the Pirates have to come clean? Why all the finger pointing between club and agent if this is just a point of order between the league and union? Something is most definitely rotten here. I hope there's a "Deep Throat" in a garage somewhere ready to spill the real beans to DK, because there's a whole bunch of smoke being blown somewhere in all this.

G-man - ACLU lawyer? If Scott's reading that, I'm thinking he may need a hug right now ...

But giving Scott a hug might at least be on par with Adam LaRoche picking up the Cubs players shin guard for him at second base ... You reckon?

Plus, if you hug him, he's liable to chew your nose off like Anthony Hopkins character did in Silence of the Lambs ... Sorry Scott, you're on your own.

So another still unanswered question...Is there anyway Pedro could go back to Vandy? I think from all of the facts that have come out, It is pretty clear that Boras stepped over the advisor/agent line here, which should eliminate Pedro's NCAA eligibility, but still have not read that anyway yet. Does anyone know for sure?

Cisco Kid - you beat me to the point I wanted to make about there being 2 separate issues.

I expect Alvarez will still end up a Pirate but I certainly don't think he will arrive in Pittsburgh in 2009. Given this mess, that might be a good thing.

Dejan, Can he even play in the Arizona Fall League since the Pirates have already designated 6 people for that league? Do you know what the working deadline is for assigning players to the Arizona or Hawaii leagues? Can players be swapped? It seems unlikely they would start him out in Venezuela or the Dominican Republic winter leagues

.

@Cisco Kid

You are right!

I think that there must be a whole lot more to this story that hasen't been revealed yet. The smoke is getting so thick that I can hardly see the keyboard.

To be fair, I really only watch the Pirates (and the Pens and Steelers) because I live in Pittsburgh, and I'm sure that's the reason why most other Pirates fans are fans. I guess Pittsburghers are a special breed, then.

Personally I think the Pirates are cursed until Barry Bonds officially retires from baseball.

Oh, now, come on! I know Alvy may not come out looking like such a bad guy through all this but, no way are we sending this guy to Hawaii!

I do think they have an opening in the Siberian League.

Server Admin here,

The Pirates dont have to worry about the timestamps in e-mails, most legit organizations sync to the atomic clock and are usually only off by nanoseconds.  The server logs each synchronization and its acceptable in a court case

afail: "most legit organizations"...  most legit organizations don't fail 16 years in a row either

Where can I get one of these atomic clocks you speak of?

I was thinking the same thing about the atomic clock...maybe Boras has video of alvarez on the phone saying yes with the atomic clock in the background showing it is after midnight

you konw...Matlock solved a lot of cases by studying a video or looking at a blown up picture where something was amiss in the background

if Alvarez really said yes AFTER midnight, I am sure that Boras will make Pedro's phone records available

I haven't heard a thing about this since the early version of the "Alvarez Refuses to Dance" story, but it was reported that Boras client Eric Hosmer was signed by Kansas City a few ticks of the clock later than the Commissioner's office time dated the Alvarez deal.  Is this true, and can Boras be selective in which deal(s) he litigates on this technicality?

Also, someone will ultimately have to tell the story (DK?) of where this whole affair, once it unravels, leaves feelings and emotions:

Alvarez vs. the Pittsburgh Pirates

and

Pirates fandom vs. Alvarez.

smokey - Yeah and chuck norris saved the world with a roundhouse kick...whats your point?

matt the rat - You're on to something, albeit unitentionally. Maybe we should send ol' Chuck to Boras' office and have CHuck kick the crap out of him.

diehard - Haha I like the idea but I dont even think that a kick would be necessary. Boras is all talk and one look from good ol Chuck would scare him straight.

Even though the Cubs have left town it time for a bit of Chicago:

Does anybody really know what time it is

Does anybody really care

If so I can't imagine why

We've all got time enough to cry

3 Quotes to make you feel better about your lot in life. Hapless as it may be.

1. "Even if we play so far above our heads that our noses bleed for a week to 10 days; even if God in Heaven above points his hand at our side of the field; even if every man, woman and child joined hands together and prayed for us to win, it just wouldn't MATTER because all the really good-looking girls would still go out with the guys from Mohawk because they've got all the money! It just doesn't MATTER if we win or if we lose. It just doesn't MATTER!"       -     from the movie MEATBALLS

2. "It's not whether you win or lose, it's how good you looked while doing it."      DAVID LEE ROTH    the Nietzsche of the 20th century

Nyjer Morgan and the stirrups. Every time he gets on base stand up and shout at the television for all to hear "That's my man, he looks so damn good, that 2nd isn't good enough. He's gonna steal short."

3. "It takes a special breed to follow the Pirates. It really does."   -   Dejan Kovacevik   our version of Louis Brandeis.

No reason to wait for tomorrow to start shouting at the TV. Stand up and do it now. And if you're at work, stand up and shout at your desk. And if you're home alone, get in the car and drive down 79, or up 79, or anywhere for that matter, and just start shouting "Hey! I don't need no stinking contender. I don't need a bunch of frat boys wearing the same hat as me, I don't need some (radio, TV, newspaper) washout saying good things about me or my team. I belong to the PBC nation. And me and my good friend Chris Hansen don't give a f*** what any of you think. Win, lose or Bert Convy We're gonna keep reading our blog, and we're gonna keep going to PNC, and we're gonna keep drinking too much Penn Pilsner. And you know what else? We like Steve Blass' stories. And we get off on the fact that Bob Smizik doesn't get us. And if you and your Yankee rooting friends don't approve. Then get in line to kiss our Lanny Frattares."

Maybe I should cut back on the espressos at Crazy Mocha? Then again, Nyger doesn't stop at 2 and neither do I.

BP says the Pirate statement was 575 words, Boras says 600. Another instance of Boras re-negotiating, trying to up the ante after the fact? This guy never quits!

JAL - Now I'm going to have those horns going through my head for the rest of the day.  Come to think of it, it's pretty relaxing.  Where did I put that CD?

Jose - AMEN!  

New to the forum but I've been a "special breed" follower of the Bucs for about 53 years now. Must be in the blood! On the other hand I stood in the rain to watch a Linesville- Cambrdge Springs 8th grade football game last night  and I scored free tickets to the Erie Seawolves game tommorow night! Maybe not so special after all, just bored.

Bucs MLB website has put up a new article, with more info (some of it different than DK's update), so questions still remain?

Link: pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

Look at it this way...What does PA have to lose. If this a loop hole that is now open, he can renegotiate his 6 mil and possibly get more...If he loses he will still get 6 mil.

We were all confident in his abilities a little bit more than 2 weeks ago where we must sign him.

If PA is everything that we thought he was back then, really will 3 months of fall ball make a difference in his development????

At this point, I am starting to agree with many who say there is something rotten in Denmark.

PA is one of the following

1.  Unable to pass the physical

2. Unable to pass the drug screening

3. Of an alternative lifestye and afraid dirty doug will not approve

4. Greedy

5. all of the above

matt

sorry just a litle attempt at humor

well a weak attempt...actually a very very little weak attempt

oh well...gotta go to work now you all have a great evening

CA Pirate

The Pirates can change their players at any point prior to the HWL of AFL seasons.  This is not without precedent.  

The article on the Bucs MLB (thanks juan pizarro) says other teams were telling Boras they would be willing to give PA $12 million.  Of course, they knew they wouldn't be drafting him, so they could say whatever they want if they didn't want the Bucs to sign him.  And SB's tactics to keep the Bucs from talking to Pedro do him no favors.  Again - Scott Boras does not negotiate in good faith.  Never has, never will.  Odds are, if Pedro is a Pirate, when he makes it up to the majors, he goes about a week before Boras has him hold out for a double-Longoria contract.

Kevin Goldstein at BP has a very detailed article on the PA situation.

In addition, BP's Joe Sheehan has a very different take on this than what our bloggers think, quoting as follows:

" Kevin’s review of the Pedro Alvarez situation today is as thorough and dispassionate presentation of the facts as you’ll find. As far as everyone else’s coverage…look, it’s nice that people are so concerned for Pedro Alvarez’s soul, so worried about what Alvarez’s association with Scott Boras and his refusal to sign a contract with the Pirates, will mean for his future. With that noted, why is it that these same people don’t have a problem with a system that costs Alvarez millions of dollars and freedom of choice at the only point of leverage he’ll have for a decade? The rules that prevent Alvarez from offering his services to multiple employers cost him a heck of a lot more than his current actions ever will.

Of course, the writing is not really about Alvarez. It’s about supporting the entrenched unfair system, serving the established relationship with management sources, and taking shots at an Approved Villian along the way. Keep all that in mind as the hack jobs on Boras and Alvarez continue."

@Diehard--Sorry about that Chief :)

Please keep remembering this is not about PA and the Bucs relationship this is about the CBA as it relates to the Commish and the MLBPA...How we got there only DEEP THROAT will ever know.

G-Man??Did you or any of your world wide network of secret agent operatives have anything to do with this??

PER DK from above

Remember, that is the grievance here. No player is cited. Not team is cited. Even in the union's press release yesterday, the union's mention of the extensions referred to hearing about it from "sources."

In that article is Joe Sheehan suggesting that all players forgo the draft and just sign with the highest bidder?

Jose Lind's Panats: "Nyjer Morgan and the stirrups. Every time he gets on base stand up and shout at the television for all to hear "That's my man, he looks so damn good, that 2nd isn't good enough. He's gonna steal short.""

One of the best lines I have read on this blog. Good work

In the article at Pirates.com...

"The Boras camp source said Boras was simply removing himself from the process because he was aware the deadline was approaching very quickly, and it would not be acceptable for an agent to negotiate with a Major League team past that deadline. At any rate, Alvarez quickly accepted the terms of the Minor League contract and the $6 million offer. Both sides agree this occurred. With a verbal agreement in hand, the Pirates e-mailed confirmation to the Commssioner's Office in New York."

Boras acted as an agent for Alvarez, by negotiating directly with the Pirates. That act, in and of itself makes him ineligible.

From the overview of NCAA Bylaws governing athlete agents...

www1.ncaa.org/.../overview.html

Under NCAA Bylaw 12.3, a student-athlete (any individual who currently participates in or who may be eligible in the future to participate in intercollegiate sport) may not agree verbally or in writing to be represented by an athlete agent in the present or in the future for the purpose of marketing the student-athlete's ability or reputation. If the student-athlete enters into such an agreement, the student-athlete is ineligible for intercollegiate competition.

That's pretty darn cut and dried. He can't play at Vandy.

There is a split system in place.  US players (college and HS) must go through the draft and deal only with the team that drafted them while foreign players can deal with any team in baseball.  So PA must deal with Pirates while a top prospect from Mexico can sign with any team.  Remember the bidding wars between the Red Sox and Yanks over Daisuke Matsuzaka.  

As I read Sheehan, he feels players should have the same ability you and I have to find work wherever we want to work.  I can apply for any job anywhere.  

Well boys its been fun. I like how big this blog is getting. Hundreds of posts and there wasn't even a game today! I will see you all tomorrow.

"In that article is Joe Sheehan suggesting that all players forgo the draft and just sign with the highest bidder?"

Sheehan's ranting about the system, which can't be changed unless and until MLB and the union negotiate a change.  It's like debating gun control in the middle of a murder case--totally irrelevant.

JLP -- correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that nyjer leads the league in stealing short......

JAL - Thats not how it is in any other sport though, and it doesn't make sense in sports at all. If that were the case then only a few teams would be in competition for all of the top talent.

maybe i watched too much CSI/L&O, but if need be, can't they just check the official phone records/email records and all that?

Perfect opportunity to trade Alvarez's rights for Rick Porcello of the Tigers.

This Fall see a :

Covert meeting between superstar client and downtrodden franchise regarding money.  

A contract agreement reached just before the stroke of midnight, or not.

A high profile agent, his young superstar client and a jilted downtrodden franchise.

A suddenly disconnected phone conversation.

The words, "I agree".   But from whom?

Big Ben (no not that one) strikes twelve EDT.

Three days pass until victimized agent seeks revenge.

Unhappy agent demands more money.

Twelve days pass until union files grievance.  

Superstar client disappears and can't be reached.  

...and that is just in the first episode of "Pass The Bucs" coming in September, on FOX.

JL Pants

I nominate you for a Hap Cap for the Nyjmo stealing short line.  I'm still laughing.  

G-Man, you available?

As much as I don't like it, I think Boras is taking advantage of a loophole. It appears as though the deadline got extended for whatever reason and he's using it to his advantage. I don't really fault him for doing it, although it does make everyone involved look awful.

I don't think Pedro looks bad in this or that it will impact how he is viewed. This is a 20 something year old kid who's trusting this guy with setting his family up for life. I doubt that the Pirates will rescind the offer and perhaps he gets more. Is it greedy? Maybe, but Boras is doing his job and Alvarez is trusting him. Right or wrong, it seems like where it stands.

Overall, the whole thing is shady and no matter how this turns out, it's already made the PIrates look bad and that's the last thing we want to see for this team.

I've been incredibly impressed with the comments in here and the passion that still exists. It truly does take a special breed.

I also think that DK does an amazing job of being up front and honest and giving the reader whatever insight he has. The nod from ESPN made this reader and fan proud in a weird way.

Sadly, in what is turning out to be one of the more depressing and confusing years of my Pirate fandom, it's also been the year that I've been most involved and I think that's a testament to DK and to this board.

I'm so tired of watching this team lose and this organization be made a fool. This is like a bad relationship. I know I should get out. I know it's bad for me. I know I'm not getting treated right, but dangit if I don't love her and get let it go.

The key here is whether the CBA even applies.  If it does not, then the most that I can see the arbitrator doing, since he would not have jurisdiction, would be to issue an advisory opinion that would not affect Alvarez's contract.

If the CBA does somehow apply, does that document (or whatever document outlines the process for signing draft choices by midnight on August 15th) require that the Pirates' confirmation occur before the midnight deadline, or only that the player and team reach an agreement by that time?  If the latter, once Alvarez uttered "I accept," the parties have a binding agreement, even though it was only oral at that point.

This whole thing sounds like 'buyer's remorse" on PAs and Boras' part. After seeing what the guys after him got in bonus money, I'm sure Boras' immediate thought was to find a loophole to make that difference up.

I'm guessing he's probably been trying to figure out how he can get the tables tilted back in his favor since the new CBA and the deadline was created. It seems like both are at fault. I'd put some blame on the PBC as well, but I don't think they wanted this deal to go down to the last minute (I use that terminology loosely) like it did. At any rate, I'd say Boras is to blame and PA is just another pawn.  If I thought this deal was going to get overturned by the arbitrator, I'd be worried. It seems like Boras' loophole is to leave the two sides of interest out of it (PA vs PBC), and instead bring the MLBPA up against the Commish's office.

I don't now how I live like this anymore. I guess it's cause I hate the Brewer's so much.

WOW!

I think being a Pirates fan has prepared me for how tough life is. My parent's may have had a little input but DL made me tough for sure.

Jose Lind's Pants - I'm ridin' down or up 79 with you, Buddy! That's Life!

JAL & diehard - Ready and waiting with the Chicago's Greatest Hits CD, on loan anytime ANYONE is ready to go for broke on 79.

Missing the Burgh - I'm right there with you on Nyjer Morgan and The Stirrups ... top ten stuff anyway. I really need to start a separate Word document for top Blog quotes ... I'd say Jose Lind's Pants had about three of them in his post-Mocha tirade, though. His avatar helps, too!

G-Man - I'm with Cave. Please, a Hap Cap for Jose Lind's Pants tirade ... And I'm on the phone right now, trying to get Gene Wilder to play the part of Jose Lind's Pants!

All - Jose Lind's Pants tirade is saved in my Word document: Top 10 All-Time Bucco Blog Quotes, if anyone wants to see it ... right beside the Doug and Joni picture!

sorry if I duplicated this

GMAN, I identified boras as marvin miller, is that not as bad?

Smokey,  my grandpap played agains josh gibson when josh was young.  since my grandpap was a catcher I picked number six as my little league number

regardless of how this got started, it was boras behinnd it.

he wants to break the deadline rule and will use any method or anyone to get there

You guys understand that this is all about Mr. Boras, right?  Please don't let the smokescreens and half-truths fool you.

Mr. Boras is hiding behind the "curtain" or the union.  However, he is the one manipulating and organizing the whole situation.

I don't believe Pedro Alvarez can do a thing about it at this time.  Please give the guy a break.  It will all come clear very soon.

I would have never believed that, after the last 15 years, I would be rooting for the Pirates front office and/or administration.

With the way Boras is throwing curves at the Pirates, maybe he could tutor Craig Hansen.  

If only Dave Littlefield was still here.....none of this would have happened.....and we would have a broken down minor league relief prospect.  Ahhh, the good old days.

Baywatch -

No hugs for Scott coming from me. He has been in contact and demands a Major League Hug and $200,000, which is way above slot.

smokey -

>>maybe Boras has video of alvarez on the phone saying yes with the atomic clock in the background showing it is after midnight<<

If such a video exists, you can bet it's somewhere on You Tube and DK will post it in Morning Links.

Oh my God. I have been so busy today that I really did not have time to back track through all of the post....Until now.

@Jose Lind--Absolutley one of the ALL-Time Great Posts. I have copied and printed it. I will keep it in a book of comic and one liner clippings that I have collected over the years...

G-Man break loose with a HAP CAP please (I 2nd the nomination by Bay.)

Okay, okay, I concur. Here's a Hap Cap for the Sisterhood of the Traveling Jose Lind's Pants.

    __/_H_\

@Jose Lind-- you gonna let him get away with that kinda wisecrack "Sisterhood"

Hit your speed dial for SB and have him demand a retraction the 17 word statement.

@Cave I must apologize I just saw that you originally nominated JoseLind for the HC and 2nd by Bay...That would make me the 3rd wheel. Give credit where credit is due.

Well all a customer Air Express'd in a couple of 3 lb Lobsters from Portland Maine and the water in the steamer is steaming....Catch you later.

Sorry folks, by my watch its exactly two seconds after midnight, nomination is not legal.

Hey somewhere in this world its two seconds after midnight, right??

Boras is probably eating a three pound lobster as we speak.

I hope he's allergic to shellfish.

When PA does finally does start playing ball for the bucs, they should give him a uniform number of 12:01

Maybe it's time I quit going to baseball games and forget about purchasing the MLB package.

Why should I fork over my HARD-EARNED money so that all of these GREEDY owners, players, agents, and the MLB should be able to live their extravagant lifestyles? With my current rate of earning & what I've made so far in life, in all of my work years (we'll estimate 45 years) I am going to be lucky to reach a total of $1.7 million dollars.

Baseball is the most wonderful game on earth, but this nonstop avarice of everyone involved in MLB is destroying some of its best qualities.

So, to Pedro Alvarez, Scott Boras, all other players & agents, the MLB, all owners, management & coaches ... none of you are fit to sniff the sweaty socks of Roberto Clemente, a man whose greatness on a ball field was transcended by his wholehearted concern for other human beings, so much so that he gave his life in carrying out his generosity!

48jj,  I had been thinking today of the way I wanted to word a comment to pedro concerning his statement that his hero is Roberto.  Well, I watched Roberto from the right fiel seats at forbes field many a day and pedro you arte no Roberto.

good wording 48.

Speaking of Roberto, anyone out there remember how you could sign up during the week at your local playground and go to a pirate game on saturday for free.  A city parks person would take the kids.  

anoorther light memory, at a knotwhole game I was the last at the end of the game for autographs out at the bullpen, Al McBean reached up and lowered me into the bullpen and I handed each guy the ball and got my share of autographs on that ball

a little useless trivia to lighten our day

matt the rat: just got back on here, and I think you've had your question answered already, but from the little I know of Joe Sheehan's views on this (I copied and pasted his entire words from his posting today), he does believe the current method of drafting/slotting/signing "eligible" college players is unfair to the players. I believe one of his reasons is that neither Latin America or Asia based players (in fact all non-American players) are subject to the same system, as they can sign with whichever team they like.

@G-Man ACLU lawyer? That is just plain mean!!!   A very low blow! but instead of deducting a point this round you get two extra.  This is a different ring we are in now.

@Pants - cool beans man

@48jj Here here!! Well spoken.

@jersey--very nice memory. Makes you really long for the past to become the present.

The thing I am still wrestling with is the signing of the Contract and what Boras/PA hope to gain.  If as Boros states the Contract was signed after 12:00 and is declared void, there is no renegotiation.  PA would get nothing and have to go back to Vanderbilt.  Boras can't have it both ways, void the Contract and renegotiate.  I don't see how this could be an option. If the Contract was not agreed to before 12:00 it is not valid and Pedro has to go back to school or sit for a year.  

Joe Sheehan is an butthead!  

I will play along with everyone being a free agent .

ONE condition though.

Team cap on payroll and limit on individual players salary per year.  

Like someone mentioned we can go anywhere to work but we all know the salaries are different.

So, now that no one team can overspend for one player that will help make the playing field a little more even.  You will still have players wanting to go to warm climate teams and such but that would be somewhat limited with a cap on team and individual player salaries.

Now we can lower the prices on Beer and food items.

Get rid of all the extra's fireworks, races, stale hotdog shooting...

It would make it more affordable for me to take the whole family to all or most games.  Would limit the rich going and showing up late and leaving early. They are just there to say hey look at us we are rich and went to the game anyhow.

Okay tear it apart folks  I know you can.  

Hurry on your rebuttals the clock is ticking.  Steelers are on now and the Pens will be playing in a few months.

Another game.

Name the disease one would contract if one was to hug Boras.

Hug Boras and you get Pneumoneyia

I was thinking SWINE flu

forget about what disease you would get FROM hugging Scott Boras.... Better to find out what disease you already have that caused you TO hug Scott Boras

To one & all, long time reader, first time player. It amaze'n the pain  that is shared by so many on something so hopeless.

The "Scott & Pedro show" is just another example of why the masochistic quest that a Bucco fan takes upon oneself for the hope of returning to a time long gone, is just that, a dream. I literally grew up under the lights of Forbes Field, & I've followed them Battlen' Buc's from Vernon Law & Bob Veale thru Stevo Blass to Bruce Kison & the Candyman. The common trend from the days of old to this paralysis of ineptatude the surrounds the Jolly Rodger has been the inferiority complex that we as fans have towards this team.

I guess this is a result from the length of losing teams to unbelieveable come back championships. The difference today from as far back as 1993, is that this system in the 21st. century makes "our" team nothing but a glorified AAA organization that weeds out the Nady's, Bay's & Ramirez's to go on to bigger & better things. Whereas in the good old days, we could trade for a Tim Foli or a Bill Madlock, or watch the emergence of a Dave Parker & turn a season around.

So I ask one & all, would we be better as a "AAA" team and accept our lot?  Would you as a fan feel better if we had a chance to win at that level & not worry about the 6+million that some 20-year old is trying to extort for the right to become a free agent & leave at the first opportunity? Could you live with a team that is competitive rather than a team that regularly is ground into the dust at PNC, where the competition is clearly in a leage that is not ours?

I normally do not go on these rants, but the promise of so many in the past, (G.M.'s, managers, owners, trades, talking heads, etc...), to now the latest August debalce, has made me jealous of the Altoona's & Indy's when I read their blog's. Thanks to DK for the work & effort he puts forth, I just hope that the black-n-gold @ PNC takes the time to recognize the passion that exists within these blogs.

48jj and jersey joe -

Thanks for the reminders of Roberto. And thanks for the knothole memories. I never went to a game as a knotholer, myself. But I went to plenty of Saturday games. My Dad was an usher and was able to sneak me in the employees gate. What I remember most about those knothole days was the high pitched squeals of all those prepubescent fans.

its after seven and by the funny stuff being said I am suspecting blogers are refreshing themselves.

Funny reading this evening.

@badnewsbaby--I can only speak for myself, and I go back to the days of Vernon Law, Bob Friend, Dick Goat, and such too.  I do not want a AAA team and the present system does not prevent a small market team from being competitive.  Look north to Minnesota. They are usually competitive with a limited payroll.  They rarely sign a big free agent.  They just draft and develop players.  They Marlins win, blow the up, win again--also without limited payroll.  

I think of the posters here just want a team that makes good decisions and creates a competitive team.  The current situation looks looks bad in light of the previous draft and player messups.  The Pirates finally draft a player who highly rated, tells the fans he is signed, and then suddenly we find the entire situation is not what we were led to believe.  None of this has anything to do with the ability of the team to pay the player.  It appears to be another messed up transaction, not the fault of the current system.

If one hugged Boras, it would surely be a sign of mental illness. But if I have to predict a physical ailment to be contracted, it would be flesh eating disease.

badnewsbaby, with all due respect. I can't believe anyone would prefer to have a AAA franchise over a major league team, and I don't believe you want that yourself. If the Bucs had always been a AAA team, how would your memories of that AAA franchise compare to what your memories are today? Ask yourself that question first, and then ask if we would be happy with a AAA team.

The only reason it hurts so much to be a Pirate Fan is because we do know what being at the top, or in an annualy increasing number of cases, near the top, feels like. And we want to feel that way again. If we had only a AAA team, there would be no pain or suffering because their would be no hope of being at the top of the babseball world.

The plight of today's Pirates is the plight of the Pittsburgh people whom are old enough to remember the early days. Inferior quality of life; lack of, and corresponding desire for, national respect; bleak outlook for the future. But the difference between the city's team and the city's people is that the people, at their core, are good, hard-working and prideful, and its when our team, its players, and its employees do not represent us with those same values, we hurt. That is why we are striking out at Pedro Alvarez and Scott Boras. This episode, these people do not represent us, what we stand for, or what we hope to acheive.  But hope, we still do, because at our core, we could have it no other way, we are not a AAA city, we are a major league city.

badnewsbaby -

>>So I ask one & all, would we be better as a "AAA" team and accept our lot?<< After spending my first 24 years in Pittsburgh, I have spent the balance of my life in Richmond where we have (until next Monday, they are moving out) the AAA Richmond Braves. They are fun to watch and there is no real pressure to win as a team at this level. So there's no horrific disappointment when you lose a few years in a row. So, you sleep better at night. We won the championship last year and it was fun, but nowhere near the high of winning a World Series. Being a AAA city carries with it the frustration of having your favorite players called up on a moments notice, or traded for someone you never even see on your club because they go straight to the Atlanta Braves. So, I guess my answer is no, you do not want the Pirates to be a real AAA team.

GMAN,  Then you also remember the sound of everyone kicking the seat rails of the seat in front of them.  For some time I thought it was a train coming from down in those woods beside the right field gate.

another game to remember, it was a saturday against the didgers and my brother tells me to take my glove because they have a lot of lefties and there will be balls coming your way a lot during batting practice.  I did.  I am watching batting practice and this ball is coming right to me now it is right at me  I am no more than ten so I duck and the lady behind me gets hit in the head and they take her out  on a stretcher.  those were the wes parker days.

gman I to was a vendor only the opening summer of three rivers stadium.  I sold coke first base box seats opening day of three rivers stadium..  I later sold a coke to Pie Traynor.

Your dad had to be a special guy

@badnewsbaby

We feel your pain.

Do you recall who we traded to get the Madlock, Foli and that have been traded at the deadline to improve  the team fo rthe playoffs and Ws? Who was our stat man I am sure he an pull or has this information handy.  I am still a little foggy from all the Jack and Coke and Jack and Jack and Jack yesterday.

@Missing the Burgh

Thanks for stating what it is to be a Pittsburgher and what we stand for.  Much Much appreciated and oh so true.

@JAL

@AndrewMet

@Missing the Burgh

@G-Man

Thanks for playing the disease game.  Loved the responses.

G-Man, 48jj and jersey joe -

Thanks for bringing back so many memories.  Ah the good old days.  I too started with the Bucs at forbes field.

I wonder how many young guys we have here verus the more exprienced ones?

Forbes Field--steel and concrete--walking into the place you felt like you going back in time. Even in the stands you were surrounded by the girders that held the place together.  It was dark, dank, and ugly--and beautiful.  457 to deep left center--the home of triples and the sometimes inside the park HR.  PNC Park actually is closer to Forbes than Three Rivers was.

Unfortunately for the Bucs, this looks like a "test case" and it really does not have anything to do with the Pirates or any other team individually. It affects all MLB teams. Being such, the only ruling that I can see happening is the arbitor ruling that in the future, there will be no extensions to the midnight deadline. I really cannot see the Pirates being penalized this year for something that seems to have been going on for quite some time.....

madturk:

To get Foli, we traded Frank Taveras.

To get Madlock, we traded Ed Whitson, Al Holland, and Fred Breining.

Those were the days.....

And can you believe that when we traded Madlock to the Dodgers, we got Cecil Espy, RJ Reynolds and Sid Bream? Man, that Joe L. Brown knew what he was doing..

Thanks for the compliments all because I mentioned Roberto Clemente. However, I am not quite old enough to have seen him play. My parents have told me about him, and I have watched documentaries about him on TV, but that is all. I wish I had been privileged enough to see him in person. What an amazing ballplayer and person.

Why isn't 21 retired across all of MLB?

I am just very disturbed about what is happening to this sport. Normal people are being priced out of attending games. It's not enjoyable when I sit here and think of the millions these guys are being paid to play a game. What good do they actually do? Sure some of them might do a few charitable things here & there for a sick or impoverished child, but millions of Americans who make far less do charitable works as well. Worst of all is that these young punks demand millions before they ever play 1 inning in a major league game.

: (

Thanks AndrewMet

I thought the Traveras trade was for Foli but could not remember for sure.   Looking at their stats they were very similar.  I liked them both.

Whitson the pitcher for the Pirates for three years not very good but ended his career with about a 500 record.  W126 L123 ERA 3.79

Holland one year with the Bucs pitching career 34 30 2.98

Fred Breining? No stats as a Buc and I don't rememebr him at all.  Played 4 years for San Fran and one for the Expos 27 20 3.34

Thanks for the refresher much appreciated.

@badnewsbaby

I live within an hours drive from all of these minor league teams, Our Baby Bucs in Hickory, Charlotte Knights AAA, Kanopolis Intimidators A, Winston-Salem Wart Hogs A, Greemsboro Bats, and a little further than an hour from Asheville Tourist and the Durham Bulls.  I would much rather have the Pirates in my city any day.  Even with all the losing there still is a big difference.  I feel your pain even though I do not live in Pittsburgh but just think how I feel,  i have no ties to the city, have always lived in NC, I could have picked any team to root for and 30 years ago at the age of 7, I choose the Pirates. What was I thinking, lol.   But I couldn't ask for a better city to visit and watch major league baseball in 2 to 3 times per summer.  Which averages about 10 games a year, thats not many but that is a lot for someone 7 hours away.

@48jj

And the money they give is a tax write off.

Most who give their time don't have the money and cannot write it off.

Sure some middle class give and write it off as well.  That is just to keep them middle class not to save millions though.

Maybe my final Clemente memory this evening.  GMan sorry about the miised nomenclature  I was a vendor Your dad was an usher, just a little typographical error.  

One of the highlights of vending the first year three Rivers opened was PR night.  The place was filled with Robertos home state fans.  Not a one could speak a word of english and they would come up to you asking where is???  point any direction since the place was a circle.

TC the vendor, most of know who he is he vends all three sporting centers, the guy who thrwos and catchs your change.  Him and I were grade school best pals.

All HAPs suspended pending arbitration.

jersey joe -

Yes, my Dad was a special guy. I'm glad we got on this because I'm having a lot of nice memories tonight.

I became an usher at Forbes Field when I turned 16 or so. Actually, I joined the union but rarely actually worked more than a few times per summer due to the senority factor in filling jobs every night. They called names down the seniority list until all the jobs were filled. Mostly, I worked doubleheaders, opening day and prize day. It was enough to pay my union dues and I got to watch all the games even on nights I did not work. I gave up the usher thing when 3 Rivers Opened. I was in college (Carnegie-Mellon) and also working at Civic Arena. I would have been working almost every game (due to increased attendance in 1970) and I needed the time to study or was already busy at the Arena.

Cool that you were a vendor. I had friends that did that. They could make some decent money but had to work their butts off, especially on hot days. Beer was the best thing to be selling, I believe.

waittilnextyear -

>>All HAPs suspended pending arbitration<<

I can tell you this with 100% certainty: Pedro will not be getting any Hap Caps as long as yours truly has anything to say about it.

48jj..I got to see Roberto play and had the opportunity to meet him as a child 1 summer when they returned from Spring training. He lived in the same community I grew up in and would come out (very rarely) with Vera to the Tee-Ball league RCJr was the bat boy for his friends team. While we were not the same ages we played on the next field over. The games were always suspended if he ever arrived. I vividly remember him bring Jr. to a Saturday morning game and he wore his uniform to speak to all of the teams about sportsmanship and respecting the game. I could barely understand him. He handed out tickets to each of the managers for everyone to come see them play that night at the NEW 3Rs but we all had to wear our uniforms, As he left he said to everyone "Make sure they are clean you must wear your uniform like Roberto with pride"

I do not remember but i swear that was the longest game of the season no one wanted to get dirty..i do remember the coaches (dads) yelling at us that our moms would wash them though. We all went that evening and instead of standing in Right Field for the Anthem. He came over to the RF railing to make sure we sung the Anthem with him....I get chills thinking about it. Every kid there that night got an autographed ball from him and although they lost a number of the PBC came down the line after the game to sign as well it was a truly magical time when he was alive.

And you do make a very valid point about retiring his number for he was the 1st Latin American player.

To everyone that posted before me here regarding the memories. From the bottom of my heart I want to thank you. While reading those I was a child again with my father and my childhood friends. Thank you.

GMAN,  The Beer guys made the most, easily.  They all made $100.00 a game at least.

The top level opened without the soda machines in place so the dring was orange drink.  One hot day I would take two cese out and sit them down and sell them and do it agin.

you definitly worked hard.  I like you was a fan luckily enough to work for my heros.  I would start as soon as the gates opened and walk and walk to make the early money and then once you had to be in your sections I would work to 5th or so inning then watch the game.

I also worked the first steeler game there and the ploicemans circus

Billy

What a fantastic story..I'm sure it is something you will never forget and had a lot to do with making you the passionate Pirate fan you are. If only more pro athletes had the class Robero had.

one correction though..I dont think he was the first Latin player but he was the first Latin to be elected to the baseball Hall of Fame

"And you do make a very valid point about retiring his number for he was the 1st Latin American player."

No he wasn't.  I don't even think that he was the first Latin American player for the Pirates, as they signed someone (a white Puerto Rican) who was past his prime at some point after WWII.

BillyKidd -

No, thank YOU for the memories. Great story. You earned a Hap Cap for the trip down Memory Lane.

    __/_H_\