Boras challenges Pirates to 'come clean'

Kudos to DK for the new link and also to FC for standing his ground with PA

here is hoping that somebody will come to their senses and make a positive step that makes the whole arbitration thing a moot point

DK:  What are the implications of this?  If Alvarez doesn't sign can he return to school and re-enter the draft next year?  It would appear that MLB believes he has a valid contract.  If so could they basically say you are the Pirates property sign the contract if you want to play in MLB?  So many questions about the implications of this.  Help!

A Kansas City win tonight, ties us for 4th in the draft standings.  After what we have seen today, does that even matter?  The one thing we have to "play" for during the last 29 games, and that excitement is potentially tarnished.  Such is the luck of a Bucco fan.

We are now .500 at home.  Anyone remember when we had the 8th best home record in all of Major League baseball?  It was the case a couple months ago.

Dejan,  thanks for the new thread.  Do you get a sense that there is going to be daily news on this issue or, after today, will it just be quiet until the arbitration hearing on the 10th?  Also, a point of personal confusion: If the Pirates "missed" the deadline, how could they or Boras negotiate another deal with Alvarez, either now or after arbitration?  If the arbitrator finds for Alvarez, it seems he would just have to go back to college, no?  If I'm the Bucs brass, I'm definitely pushing this to arbitration...Alvarez has the most to lose.

7-18 August.

A sweep by the Brewers gives us our worst record for a month since PNC park opened.  They are giving seats away for Friday and Saturday.  How low have they sunk?  Friday and Saturday night games formerly meant big crowds and no exchanges for even season ticket holders as recently as 2006.  Now we are offering 12 dollar outfield box and 8 dollar grandstand seats.  Thanks for giving casual fans better prices than season ticket holders get.  Another brilliant move in an effort to not be embarrassed by the Fri and Sat night attendance figures.  Watching the team leading in the wildcard standings should be enough of an enticement.  Don't forget to boo Jason Kendall too, we all know that's coming.  Such intelligence.

@jersey joe

As with the Pirates it will take time my friend.  After your add to the post, refresh and wait .

I agree with someone else on the other post...

If Hosmer's contract was really signed after PA's, there is no way Boras can undo this contract without causing a major stir (for all parties involved). Thus, we can assume that Boras knows this contract is valid...

And is stalling so Pedro can get healthy enough to pass a physical...

Really no other explanation unless Boras is trying to lose all his business....

Help DK anybody!

1). Why should we care?

2). What does this mean?

3). Why should we care?

If this is so important to all concerned lets just get it done and move on to respectability and then these kind of things will not happen to our Buccos

Did Rocco's source know this would happen today on his Extra Innings show last night?

Pedro you're a class-act!  I guess Vanderbilt doesn't teach honesty, integrity and ethics.

Not sure but I heard he stated that Boras will be our next president.  LOL

>>Shyam Das will be the arbiter.<<

Isn't that the guy who made "The Sixth Sense"?

There seem to be two separate things going on here. One is the validity of the contract, which has nothing to do with Pedro's integrity or Boras's weaselness (well, unless Boras is the "source" who told the MLBPA about the possibility of improper extensions to the negotiations, which I certainly wouldn't put past him). Only if the contract is determined to be valid do we reach the second issue, which is whether Pedro gets to renegotiate.

Of course, it never should have gotten to this.

Wasn't Jose Tabata supposed to be the jerk?  This is an absolute joke, Alvarez is making Baggy Bell and M*ndesi look like saints in comparison... Screw this, I'll take my #3 overall next year

You know not a bad idea for Boras to be pres.  He can hold the nation back untill he gets the votes he likes.

Tell Russia - no more wheat for you until you are out of Georgia.  Tell the middle east he wants to renegotiate the oil prices, womens rights, equal religious rights and so on..  If you don't agree he will send his nukes (Lawyer)  over to do his biddings. ( there goes the small players in this game (PA))

Too Harsh?

a repost, since it looks like I was the last to post on the olde thread....

ok, I am finally caught up with everyone's comments... damn work keeps interrupting... my thoughts...I am sick to my stomach.... Literally, and not the figurative use of the word "literally" that is so prevalent these days. If ever a time the term hapless would apply; it is now. It is all the more fitting that this news comes at nearly the exact moment the Cubs finished a three-game sweep of our Pirates.  The literal (figurative use this time- I figured that I would get in on that party) passing of the baseball-futility torch from those new-feel Cubs (see Smizik's article today) to our Buccos is sealed with a kiss(off) from our presumed savior and the agent[(advisor)(devil)] on his shoulder.

DK,

From what I read of the MLBPA statement I take it to read the grievance is filed against the system not just against the Pirates specifically and it is supposed to be that there were other cases of missing the deadline

<<<<>>Shyam Das will be the arbiter.<<Isn't that the guy who made "The Sixth Sense"?>>>>>>>

G-man: No, but it would make sense if it were since we find out at the end that Pedro Alvarez was never here the entire time!!

Well, something does not smell right about any of these press releases.  On the Pirates side, they seem to be hiding the true time the agreement was made and submitted.  On the union side, the reluctance to discuss it gives th impression that they either are not really sure what happened, or there is something else problematic about their challenge, such as the fact that they are doing it "to protect the collective bargaining agreement" instead of on behalf of Alvarez.  

Of course, this begs the question why the Union is doing Scott Boras' bidding.  Is the Union that interested in the deadline?  I thought they only represented Major League ballplayers, not minor league players or amateurs.  Are they thinking this will lead to more leverage in negotiations so more of these draftees will negotiate being placed on the 40 man roster?  Will that then somehow lead to more money for Major League players?  

And is this really about only $200,000?  Or is this Boras' effort to blow apart the free agent signing deadline system which clearly favors the clubs over the players because it allows the clubs to make take-it-or-leave offers like the Pirates did to Alvarez?  But was this Boras' strategy all along?  to wait until the last second in order to create this situation, where perhaps technically the submission of the agreement to the league was a few seconds or minutes late?  If so, wouldn't that be some kind of fraud?

But going back to my initial thoughts after reading both the Pirates and the Union's Press Releases, neither side is telling us everything, they are both hiding something, and what they are not telling us is probobably the most interesting part of this story.

But a word of caution: we should not work up venom against Alvarez.  He is only 21, and he has hired the biggest and best (from a player's perspective) agent in sports, and he would be an idiot if he did not listen to him.  Even if he is being used as a pawn in Boras' strategy.  Unfortunately for the rest of us, this is all just a game to Boras.  

Most likely this ultimately will get resolved and Alvarez will be a Pirate, and if he is as good as has been reported, let's hope this gets worked out and he plays in the 'Burgh for many many homer-hitting years.    

@ConcernedChris

Great!!! we do agree on a few things.  If management is snowballing us on this I will be with you to take whatever action we can.

G-man

The Shyam Das is the one who directed Ground hog Day where the action keeps repeating and repeating and repeating until you lose what is really supposed to be going on

For those just joining, a nice blog entry from Rob Neyer on ESPN.com:

insider.espn.go.com/.../index

Yeah well, we'll probably have at least the 4th pick anyway to go along with that.  SD has come back to beat AZ again and Seattle could take 3 in a row against Minnesota.  We might only be 6 games out of 2nd place for the draft in less than an hour.

We have to catch KC first. We will with a KC win this evening.

Up to the minute '09 standings

Nats 47-85

Seattle 50-82  (tied 3-3 in the 7th inning)

Pads 51-82

KC 56-76

Bucs 57-76

Remember, all we need is to be within 2 games of SD by 9-26, so Seattle is the team to watch.  We'll get swept by the Pads to end the season so that will take care of itself.  We just have ot make up 4 games in the next 29, NO PROBLEM!  Keep rooting for those Nats, still a shot at them too.  (9 1/2 back)

here's a good, recent update from MLB: draft.mlblogs.com/.../the_alvarez_saga.html

@indianafanatic and G-man

just like groundhog day,  this to will get sorted out.. eventually

Let it be written let it be done

Well, as expected, there was more to the story than we all gained from the Pirates press release.

The statement from the MLBPA has me a bit worried. As it stands, the MLBPA is accusing the commissioner's office of extending the signing deadline without asking the MLBPA. If that is the case, it's a pretty open-and-shut case: if anyone was signed AFTER the midnight deadline, the contract is void.

Now, what strikes me was Coonely's statement in the press release that Alvarez's deal was completed "in a timely fashion". That sounds to me like he could have been dancing around mentioning a specific midnight deadline.

Jim Callis of Baseball America said earlier today that Hosmer had applied, and was granted, an extension from the MLBPA. If this is true, then it wouldn't matter if Hosmer signed after Alvarez.

All in all, this looks to be a stare down between the MLBPA and the commissioner's office. I wonder if there are any other players who fall into the same category as Alvarez, or if it will only be the Pirates who will feel the wrath if the players association wins.

Oh yeah, and I have no doubt that it was Boras who brought this to the MLBPA's attention. It all sounds like some sort of blackmail scheme from Boras. "Hey, you're going to give Alvarez more money, or I'm letting the players union know that the commish extended the deadline."

Where is Rocco and his insiders?I have heard many people swear this guy has inside info.Time to test that credibility

@buc_ fan_ in_ CT

Does your mother know you use that kind of language  LOL

Thanks to juan pizzaro for a great link while it has a lot of info it makes you kinda wonder who the butt really is

Make no mistake, this is all about money.  Boras is p.o.'ed that he didn't get his client a Mark Teixera (sp?) contract;  he claims to represent his client but he really comes off as representing only himself.  If his representation were really in his client's best interests, he would have negotiated a contract with the Pirates in early July and had PA playing baseball in the summer, and getting to the majors that much earlier.  

But here's the key: PA is dumb in two areas: 1) hiring Boras to begin with and 2) listening to him now.  What is the difference between 6 million and 9 million anyway?  I wish I knew from experience but it seems to me nothing for a 21 year old.  How much more could he make in free agency if he arrived a year earlier?  More than 3 million, I can tell you that.

Something about agent-devil:

Background

Scott Boras, Scott Boras Corp, is a former second baseman and center fielder who played in the Chicago Cubs and St. Louis Cardinals organizations. After four years in the minor leagues, during which he never made it above Class AA, he retired due to three knee surgeries. The Cubs paid for him to attend law school at the University of the Pacific. He also holds a doctorate in industrial pharmacology, and during his law career, he specialized in medical litigation.

Boras started his career as an agent by representing his former minor league teammates just as they were about to enter the major leagues. Boras's first multi-million dollar contract, a five-year, $7.5 million deal with the Toronto Blue Jays, was for his former teammate Bill Caudill; Caudill had to retire three years into the deal, at the age of 31, due to arthritic shoulders.

Today, Scott Boras runs the Scott Boras Corporation, where he employs former major leaguers as scouts in Asia and Latin America. He has continued to negotiate deals for many of Major League Baseball's high-profile players in recent years, including Barry Bonds, Bernie Williams, and Alex Rodriguez; as of 2005, Rodriguez's deal, for $252 million over 10 years, is still the most expensive contract in U.S. professional sports.

Signing bonuses and the amateur draft

Scott Boras is credited with allowing players to have more control over their salary when they are first drafted in the amateur draft. Boras told one of his first clients, the 1983 draft's top pick Tim Belcher, to hold out for a larger signing bonus. The Minnesota Twins offered Belcher $100,000, the same amount as the previous year's top selection, Shawon Dunston, and not much higher than the 1965 draft's top choice, Rick Monday. Instead, Scott Boras wanted Belcher to receive a bonus of $150,000. This essentially was what caused signing bonuses for amateur baseball players to escalate; high draft picks in the late 1990s and early 3500s routinely receive bonuses of several million dollars.

Several Scott Boras Corp clients were prominent in the 1996 draft. Boras found a loophole that granted free agency to four top first-round picks: Matt White, Travis Lee, John Patterson, and Bobby Seay. He was able to get White a $10.1 million deal from the Tampa Bay Devil Rays; White has never reached the major leagues, however. Seay, who signed with the Devil Rays for $3 million, was a reliever with the Tampa Bay for four seasons and is now with the Colorado Rockies. Lee, a star with Team USA in the 1996 Summer Olympics, has been a solid backup for several teams, while Patterson is now a middle-of-the-rotation starter for the Washington Nationals.

J.D. Drew was another Boras client whose original team could not sign him. Scott Boras's demand was an $11 million contract from the Philadelphia Phillies; the Phillies' offer was $3 million. Drew ended up having to hold out, playing the rest of the season in the independent Northern League. Drew re-entered the draft the following season and signed with the St. Louis Cardinals for $8 million.

J.D. Drew's brother, Stephen Drew, and Jered Weaver (the brother of pitcher Jeff Weaver) were two Scott Boras Corp clients drafted in 2004 who held out almost long enough to re-enter the draft in 2005. Both ended up signing without having to reenter the draft, but neither could play professional baseball during the year that they were drafted due to their holdouts.

Controversy

A common controversy with Scott Boras is that he often secures contracts for his clients who appear to be far above their market value. Understandably, this draws the ire of fans of small-market teams, because small-market teams often avoid trying to sign Boras clients due to their needs to keep their budgets low. In addition, many teams avoid drafting Scott Boras Corp clients because Scott Boras tries to have his clients sign multimillion-dollar contracts before they even start playing in the minor leagues. For example, the New York Mets, despite not being a small-market team, refused to draft Rick Ankiel with the sixth pick in the 1997 draft; Ankiel was instead picked by the Cardinals with the 72nd choice. This is also the case with established major leaguers. Boras negotiated a seven-year, $87.5 million deal for New York Yankees center fielder Bernie Williams which he admitted was too expensive: "He was a 20-home-run center fielder, and we wanted 40-home-run money."

The one problem with negotiating long term contracts at apparently inflated wages is the larger probability that the client will not produce equivalent to what they are being paid. Some contracts have hamstrung teams for a few years when their contracted player gets repeatedly injured. Perhaps one of the most intriguing deals Mr. Boras worked out was between Kevin Millwood and Cleveland Indians general manager Mark Shapiro in 2005. Mr. Boras agreed to several performance clauses that would reduce his client's salary if he missed playing time due to arm problems. This injury clause protected a small market team like the Indians from getting value relative to what they were paying for. Kevin Millwood would end up winning the American League E.R.A., a spectacular pitching addition for the Cleveland Indians.

Another one of Scott Boras' agents scored a huge contract on December 20, 2005. Johnny Damon decided to leave the Boston Red Sox and sign with the New York Yankees. Boras negotiated a four-year-$52 million deal for Damon.

His list of major clients has included some very famous names:

• Alex Rodriguez

• Carlos Beltran

• Adrian Beltre

• J.D. Drew

• Derek Lowe

• Jason Varitek

• Kevin Millwood

Tis not for us to ask why

Just for us do and die

That's the plight of a fan

With no part of the plan

It may look like money but I think it all about ego.  The money is just the tool to massage the ego.  If the highest signing bonus any draft choice got was was 1 million Boras would would satisfied with 1.5 million.  He just can't stand that someone who was not his client got more money than his client.

So, if this thing falls through and PA goes back into the draft.  Could we theoretically draft him again next year, lowball him w/ a 2.5$ million signing bonus, and force him to sit out again?

UPDATE:

According to the link supplied by Juan Pizzaro:

MLB has released a statement in response to the MLBPA release:

"We believe the grievance is entirely without merit.  The deadline was extended to accept minor league contracts voluntarily entered into by the clubs and the players with the help of their agents.  It is settled law that the arbitration panel has no authority to disturb such minor league contracts."

That is BIG news, because it admits that the commissioner's office did indeed extend the deadline. Now, it will be up to the arbitrator to decide whether or not making that extension without consulting with the MLBPA constitutes a breach of the CBA.

That is certainly not good news for the Buccos.

DK -- What is "actual reporting"?  Aren't writing things down and publishing them, whether on paper or on the Internet, part of "actual reporting"?

this quote from Boras scares me and even in the union greivance they stated the pirates statement was inacurrate ... could it be that the leaders of PBC are the ones hiding something here?

"It's time for the Pittsburgh Pirates and Mr. Coonelly to come clean with Pittsburgh fans regarding their dealings with Pedro Alvarez," Boras told ESPN.com.

uh-oh

Hearts are breaking all over bucco nation. we have been "deceived" by managment. Get a life it hapened all the time during the littlman days

I can't stand all of this greed. I *love* baseball, and enjoy many sports in general, but I am so sick of what these athletes make.

Boras is a disgusting human being. Are we to assume that since Alvarez went around him to sign the deal that Boras decided to get the MLBPA involved with this whole "after the deadline" crap? I think it's safe to assume that many of these last minute deals do this, but when he's in control and gets the dollar figure he wants, Boras doesn't complain.

Alvarez needs to step up and be a man. If his family is so important in this whole process, they should have him fire Boras NOW and honor the contract that Pedro supposedly accepted.

MLB and the owners need to stop this behavior immediately. All draftees should have to be signed no later than 30 days after the draft is concluded. All contracts should have to be SIGNED by that deadline with none of this last minute crap of faxes and emails and verbal agreements.

acurve -- if Boras were right that there was some sort of irregularity here by the Club, why wait 12 days to complain about it?  Why suggest renegotiations, if that's what he did, rather than simply say that PA will not play for the Pirates?  Is it that Pedro agreed after midnight against Boras's advice, and it's taken this long for Boras to sell Pedro on the idea that he'll get more than $6 million next year?  If that's the case, then good luck to him and his injured wrist, and have fun playing in Kansas City, Pedro.

@acurve--Why would it scare you? It really should not. Here is why. If in fact there was "something amiss" why would Boras not come out and say it on ESPN? Lay out your case in front of the public. No inuendos. Just the facts of how the PBC have mucked up the negotiations. It is nothing more than posturing in order to get the fans to startr thinking in PA's/Boras's favor. The man has no peer when it comes to posturing or grandstanding.

Also,

This is Scott Boras' publicly available information:

SCOTT D. BORAS, INC.

Number: C1680605 Date Filed: 1/25/1991 Status: active

Jurisdiction: ILLINOIS

Address

PO BOX 8540

STOCKTON, CA 95208-0540

Agent for Service of Process

SCOTT D BORAS

18 CORPORATE PLZ

NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92660

     DeGregory, Philip                

     18 corporate plaza dr

     newport beach, CA 92660

     US

     949-760-0188

phil@borascorp.com

scott@borascorp.com

Scott Boras

work

3 San Joaquin Plz

Newport Beach, CA 92660-5923

(949) 760-0188

Type: Land Line

Provider: Pacific Bell

Location: Newport Beach, CA

Due to number portability, some numbers have been transferred to a new service provider.

Job title: President

Company: Scott Boras

Buc Fever wrote re: New Pirates-Alvarez grievance thread

on Wed, Aug 27 2008 11:58 PM

UPDATE:

According to the link supplied by Juan Pizzaro:

MLB has released a statement in response to the MLBPA release:

"We believe the grievance is entirely without merit.  The deadline was extended to accept minor league contracts voluntarily entered into by the clubs and the players with the help of their agents.  It is settled law that the arbitration panel has no authority to disturb such minor league contracts."

That is BIG news, because it admits that the commissioner's office did indeed extend the deadline. Now, it will be up to the arbitrator to decide whether or not making that extension without consulting with the MLBPA constitutes a breach of the CBA.

That is certainly not good news for the Buccos.

THIS IS A LOSER FOR THE BUCS...THATS WHY YOU HAVE A CBA..ITS A MUTUAL AGREEMENT--ONCE SIDE CANT UNILATERALLY CHANGE IT--10 TO 1 THEY LOSE THE ARBITRATION--UNLESS PBC CAVES AND PAY THE 200 K--WHICH IS MIGHT DO'SECRETLY' SO THAT IT DOENST EEN LOOK MORE FOOLISH

WHY  WOULD PBC WNAT THIS KID ANYWAY/ LET HIM GO-- THEN I WOULD BE HAPPY WITH PBC...HE'LL BE A PITA HIS WHOLE UNDERACHIEVING TIME HERE

GOT TO TAKE MY DOG TO THE VET..BY BY

This might be a dumb question, but...

How can a Union represent a player that they state isn't under contract, and file a grievance on his behalf?  

They don't rep. Tanner Scheppers, right?  Why?  He was drafted by the Pirates and didn't sign a legal contract.  Being that the union is basically stating this is what happened with Alvarez, then what allows them to grieve on his behalf?

On a side note, perhaps locking Pedro in a room with Doug M. for a couple of hours might convince this greedy, unproven, .317 hitter last year (with aluminum bats) to shut up and play.

On another side note, perhaps sitting myself down in a room with Scott Boras might help hurry this ridiculous situation to a reasonable conclusion.

strange how PBC didnt say a word about all this until this blog started to heat it up re; punchy's absence.....best management team in sports

time to do the do

@alex coles...

NICE... put Pedro with Doug... Pedro comes out a better person.

This whole thing makes me sick...

How does Boras sleep at night........?

Hey let's lock Pa and his agent in a room with Lanny and Walk he might sign just to get away from them

Here's what we should do with Pedro Alverez, in the immortal words of Brett Myers after a particularlly hard shelling this season, when a reporter asked him his take on what happened"

Brett Myers "Boom.  Outta here".

@mattfwood--<DK -- What is "actual reporting"?  Aren't writing things down and publishing them, whether on paper or on the Internet, part of "actual reporting"?>

Are you new to this blog I see only 3 previous posts and or DK's work?

What do Barry Bonds and Scott Boras have in common?

They are both HORRIBLE liars.

I hate to think what players pay him to represent them in contract negotiations.

Personally, Scott Boras and Drew Rosenhaus should both be banned as agents.

although I rarely agree with ron d's posts, and consistently always negative, they can be pretty entertaining (I wonder if he calls his dog AdamL ?)

Alex coles,

The MLBPA IS NOT representing Alvarez. Boras has slyly made this into a MLBPA vs MLB issue, not a MLBPA/Alvarez vs Pirates thing. From my understanding, the MLBPA would not be able to represent Alvarez, so instead they are making this an issue with the collective bargaining agreement. The 12AM deadline was agreed to in the CBA, so if the commissioner's office extended the deadline without consulting the MLBPA, they may indeed have a case.

Precedent will show that the MLB has done this in the past, as they did with a Boras client last year, but now that Boras didn't get what he wanted, he cried foul to the MLBPA. And in the end, he ends up looking like the "good guy" to the MLBPA for helping them show the MLB broke the CBA.

Death to Scott Boras.

@mattfwood

Not cool to dis The Kman.  Looking forward to some time in the burgh just to tell him in person how much is reporting is appreciated

I don't like Boras either but he tells his clients that he will get them unworldly amounts of money and comes through.  

There is also a difference between reporting and commentary.  Some of what appears in the paper is commentary-AKA an opinion piece.  It may contain reporting but doesn't have to.

Break his name in two and what do you have?

BORe  AS#

kinda how a am getting reading all the posts.

Can't wait for something new and refreshing on this deal.

<<<<<<<Scott Boras phoned from California>>>>>> mattfwood....that's real reporting. lay off DK, without him you wouldn't have real-time updates on breaking news... have you seen some of the other local outlets coverage? No comparison

<I think it's time for the Pirates and Mr. Coonelly to come clean with the fans of Pittsburgh and let everyone know about their dealings with Mr. Alvarez.">

If this evidence is so damning why doesn't Boras come out with it himself. Actaully really make Nutiting and Coonelly look as bad as he says they are. Until he does it the PBC will keep their mouths shut...

C'mon Scotty What have they done so wrong? Make them refute your story...If you have one.

Bora$ is a genious. He puts out a statement that he knows the Bucs fans could easily believe nd deflects the critism from them.  I think Bora$ is lower than Cleveland. (Tried to put a nice clean insult of Bora$ here that would be family friendly).

I hop that all us Bucs fans can see through this as one of a long list of underhanded tactics that Bora$ is famous for.

While I put the Nuttings on the same level of Bora$, I do believe in the new front office. (The Nuttings allowed incompetence far too long and overly profitted from it to not get any passes now for a good FO).

We need to keep the line drawn in the sand with Bora$ and not cave to ANYTHING!

And PA IS to blame too. Yes he is only 21. When I was 21 I just joined the Arny and we had just sent in troops to Kuwait (back in 91).  Don't tell me a 21 year old MAN can't man up and stay to his word or that he can't stand up to his agent.  THAT IS GARBAGE!

If PA drags this forever, I say turn him into a pitcher and ruin his career.  It will make Bora$ and other scum think twice before messing with us!

Boras is a scheister in a most major fashion.

He sits in Newport Beach pillaging the wallets of every baseball fan he can get his hands on.

There are far too many of these goons grazing the grass of all sports these days.

On top of it, we get to think of Nutting's ridiculous comments about having the best negotiators in sports with the Pirates.

Is there anyway to get rid of Boras & Nutting, and ship them out on the closest rocket to Mars?...or points beyond??

Baywatch - G-Man

All the medication the couch, jack and coke is not helping.

What to next?  Ah the pistol is near, no wait I have a life outside of the pirates and there is always NEXT YEAR.  Our new motto for the bucco's.

Buc Fever : i think you got it right.

The Boras quote in DK's piece, you've got to love it. Of course SB acting as an agent (oh , sorry, an adviser) to PA prior to Aug 15 is clearly within MLB's strict guidelines regarding draftees engaging a player agent prior to the Aug 15 signing period. Maybe the PBC should put out a statement like Boras' and just change a few words, as follows: "Scott Boras violated Major League Baseball rules and have issued a nearly 60-word statement, and made his actions look to be our fault. I think it's time for Scott Boras to come clean with the fans of Pittsburgh and let everyone know about his dealings with Mr. Alvarez."

So the Cubs sent Boras to law school.  Looks like they're making all sorts of trouble for us this week.

This Alvarez fiasco smelled like Smoky Burgess' locker to me right from the get-go. The absence of a press conference, visit to Pittsburgh or even a statement by the kid within a day of the alleged "signing" set off all kinds of alarms for me.

Anyone who thinks that PBC management didn't know Alvarez and his agent were upset with the take-it-or-leave-it offer from the start and signed it under shotgun pressure is also probably naive enough to think Andy LaRoche is going to be a productive major league third baseman, Believe me, NH and FC knew from the minute they got a verbal agreement from Camp Boras there was going to be trouble getting this kid on board.

The PBC was keeping its collective mouth shut and hoping this PR nightmare would go away, that the kid's desire to play and his family's pressure to become millionaires would prevail. Instead, Boras convinced Family Alvarez to stay the course and trust him, found his loophole and is swinging for the fences with it.

As far as I'm concerned, let the kid walk and issue a statement that we will never do business again with a Boras client. If enough teams took that kind of stance, the emperor, in this case Boras, soon would have no clothes, would lose his leverage and baseball (all sports, for that matter) would return to some semblance of financial sanity.

Pirates, take a cue from the Steelers. Even though it's fourth and one, let's face it: We're deep in our own territory and it's still early in the rebuilding game. Let's punt on this one and play defense.

Once was a Pirate to be

A baseball future I could see

Boras took over my deal

He says not to worry he will get me a steal

What happened? We started a buzz like a bee

newport beach is a bit too far down the coast for me to walk the dogs tonite to have them bite borass on the ankles.

hey- did his 'knee surgery' come from him getting kneecapped by someone? must have a history of 'love' around him.

hard to believe he has represented some of the most detested characters in baseball. so many great guys around...so many millionaires...why HIM pedro? push the ejector on this guy and be beloved by your kingdom.

Good one JHadar

Interesting statement from MLB. It seems to me MLB is saying that since this is a minor league contract, it's not covered under the CBA.

AFAIK, the MLBPA does not represent minor league players.

Also beginning to have concerns and need the rest of the story. The Pirates said in a timely maner, not a more definitive statement that it was before midnight or the time was extended by the league.

What does Boras mean by 'coming clean'? and what is the MLB Ass. in this all about?

Need the Pres. and GM to give us details of the procedure and the detail germain to the issues.

Set the Wayback machine to just before the draft.  Remember, talk of whether the Pirates would take a Boras client--why--because everyone knows that nothing is easy with Boras and he wants top dollar.  Nothing shocking about today's events.

We, the fans, have no idea what went on in the talks--we only know what those involved are telling the press and the public.

Now find a time machine and move to 2012--Alvarez is a star--does that make the Pirates a winner?  Not unless some other above average players have developed.  

The Pirates signed other draft choices, traded for some prospects, and have a few good looking young players on the roster.  

This situation will play out and who knows how it end.  It is only a part of a much larger picture.

Putting all the releases together, it is my guess that the Pirates and Pedro agreed to a contract before midnight and  told Boras who, realizing they had circumvented him,  then dragged his heels doing the filing until after midnight. Pirates called MLB saying they had an agreement with Pedro, but Boras was taking his time filing so they got an extension until the agreement was official.  

So, officially, there are no "lies". They agreed in a timely manner, Pedro forced the issue, and the paperwork arrived late so an extension was needed making the official signing late.

There really is no way this ends well for the Pirates in the long run. If they "win" and the contract is upheld in arbitration, Boras simply deals even more harshly with the team in the future, potentially spoiling not only Pedro Alvarez's chances of actually becoming a star here, but also other dealings with his clients. There's a reason the previous management avoided Boras whenever possible, even if it ultimately hurt the team. If Boras "wins" and gets more money out of the Pirates, it sets an incredibly bad precedent for future shady dealings across the league. In the middle ground, the Pirates could lose Alvarez altogether and end up looking like they can't cut it in the high stakes games agents like Boras play. A compensatory draft pick won't do much to soothe the remaining fans.

Frankly, I think the chances of Alvarez ever playing at PNC Park took a nosedive today, and that's a shame for both the club and the player. If the Pirates manage to win the dispute and retain Alvarez, how long will it be before his rights are traded to the Yankees or some other big-money team for burnt peanuts and stale cracker-jack?

By the way, what idiot at the MLB offices agreed to a midnight verbal deadline in the first place? Make players have to sign contracts for them to be binding, and make the deadline the close of business. The current rules were just a fiasco waiting to happen. Thank goodness hockey season is coming, and thank goodness they have a cap on draft pick contracts, or else Pittsburgh would be looking at the prospect of three losing teams this season.

Ok someone help me out here

Do we know for a fact that Boras is his agent or is he still technically his advisor?

If Boras is PA's agent that will nullify his collegiate eligibility correct?

If it is ruled that PBC is wrong what happens?

To call Boras scum is an affront to scum everywhere.  Alvarez needs to wise up ASAP and start looking out for himself because his agent certainly doesn't give a damn about his career.  Find some new representation, Pedro, and get your career started.  Boras is only looking out for #1 and delaying your path to the majors.  

On a side note, does anyone still believe that Nady (and agent Boras) really would have signed a home town friendly extension with the Bucs and forego free agency?

The Pirates CANNOT sign this guy...not after this mess.  They can ill afford any more bad publicity than they will receive after next year's record breaking season.  This signing will historically be just another Pirate's blunder unless the organization makes a stand.

Just a thought...would this mess ever have taken place if the Pirates just operated like a real major league franchise and kept Aramis Ramirez?  

Regardless, Alvarez should pay for this mess by being forced out of MLB and NCAA.  I believe Boras may be one of only a handful of people actually worse for the sport than Bob Nutting.

Of course PA had pressure on him to sign his contract, THAT'S THE WAY BORAS ENGINEERED IT!  In this case it backfired because the Pirates wouldn't cave to his ridiculous demands.

I made a post here the day of the signing about "advisors". My suggestion is to MAKE college baseball players declare for the draft like they do in football.  Then they can hire an agent, but at the same time they would lose their ability to go back to school (just like in football).

This is nothing more than Boras being a sore loser. I don't think the Pirates dal with Alvarez was any different than dozens of other signings over the years.  I think they agreed on the 6 mil before midnight and hammered out some of the other details past midnight, which seems to be okay with Boras and the MPLA as long as they get what they want.

Boy and here I was thinking early this morning it was going to be a quiet night on the blog and I would actually get some work and home related things accomplished.

Another ramification:  How big a deal is this to MLB and MLBPA?  Are we looking at something that can be settled amicably, or facing a strike/lockout the next time the agreement comes around?

@BK--can't see every possibility but one is that if PBC is wrong PA can be declared a free agent and  bargain with any team.  Boras got that in 1994 for several of his drafted players.  Beyond that I don't know what the arbitration might result in.  

I agree with PittP90s,

21 is plenty old enough to make a "tough" decision such as: "Do I take $6M or not?".  Lot's of other 21 year olds are making even tougher ones in all over the world.

I just re-read this Baby Alvarez piece by SI:

sportsillustrated.cnn.com/.../index.html

This guy is very smart.  The article leaves me to believe he is very driven to be the best at Bball for nothing more or less than financial reasons.  I say this not as judgement, but as the impression the article leaves me.

My conclusion remains this guy is another Barry Bonds.  If he makes it into a Pirate uniform, we will make us a better team.  However, he will not be a leader.  He will play for the personal stats and the big free agency pay day.

I hope I am wrong about PA.  The PBC press releases continue to lavish praise on his fine moral charater ("tremendous fortitude and independent thinking " was the exact comment).

But as many others have pointed out in this blog... it is the fans who feel taken advantage by all sides.

At what point does Alvarez realize Boras doesn't care about him or his career?  You're old enough to see this is just hurting you in the long run, Pedro.  What's worse here - drafting a no-talent like Moskos who will sign for slot or drafting Alvarez and having to deal with Satan himself?  Just a despicable excuse for a human being...

@BillyKidd

Welcome to the Twilight Zone

Hey Twilight Zone is on now.  The Dream Lover episode.  

No Scott Boras/Pirate mangement/PA or Baseball is in it.

I joined and entered into the army at 17! I got married when I was 19 (and I'm still married to the same woman 21 years later), so the fact the PA is "only" 21 is a poor excuse for backing out of a deal. C'mon, the guys been at college on his own for several years now, it's time to grow up or shut up.

I think I am finally done with the pirates.  next year i am buying the mlbpackage and am going to watch the indians.

16 years is enough.

this is ugly and getting worse.

the worst part is is that we were lied to about how much new ownership was going to spend after we bought them the best park in the league.

we are the crown jewel of embarrassment. thank you boras and pirates management.

60FT6

Right on!

@JAL--Great point lets play a liltle Devil's Advocate then because I am just don't understand all of the legal mumbo jumbo.

If he becomes a FA (I know some big $$ team will ultimately negotiate and sign) doesn't that scare every owner that it will happen to them.

"can't see every possibility but one is that if PBC is wrong PA can be

declared a free agent and  bargain with any team.  "

Sorry, but there is ZERO chance that this happens unless the draft itself is ruled to be illegal/unconstitutional.  Alvarez, like every other player drafted was subject to the draft and the rules therein.  The rules state a player agrees to a valid contract by midnight 8/15 or else HE IS INELIGIBLE TO SIGN WITH ANYONE and must re-enter the next draft.

Under no circumstances could he be declared a free agent.  What would be the basis for it?  The Pirates did nothing against any rules here. The dispute comes down to whether a "valid contract" contract was agreed to by the deadline.   Either he had a valid contract or he didn't  If valid, he is the Pirates property and cannot play for another team or be redrafted.  If the contract wasn't valid, he re-enters next years draft.  Simple as that.  Worst case scenario for the Pirates is they get the #3 compensation pick in next years draft.

Here's what I don't get.

Let's say, first, that the PBC doesn't simply go to Boras and say, "OK, here's your $200k greenmail, tell the MLBPA to drop their grievance."  While that may have been what Boras was hoping for, it doesn't seem that the club's going to cave.

So the case goes to arbitration.  One of two things can happen: 1, the arbitrator rules in favor of MLB, dismisses the grievance, and the contract is in force.  2, the arbitrator rules in favor of the MLBPA and makes any contracts agreed to after midnight voidable.

In the first case, Alvarez has to either sign the contract and report, or stays on the Restricted list for two years, during which he can't play professional baseball.

In the second case, if we assume that Alvarez (Boras) would take advantage of the ruling to void the contract, he's back where he would have been had he never agreed in the first place. - at best, going back to Vandy for a year, risking injury or poor performance, and re-entering in what is now considered to be a stronger draft class.  I suppose Boras could be hoping that the PBC would at that point renegotiate to give him his $200k so he could say he negotiated the largest signing bonus - but again, given the club's behavior and statements, that sounds unlikely.

Aside from the chance that Pirates management will cave, I don't get how Boras thinks he comes out ahead.

Boras+Nutting = Garbage>PBC. It's a different game now. Let Boras,PA go ...and get rid of Nutting. Pgh deserves better than these clowns. Let PA go back in next yrs draf, get the extra pick.. He'll be lucky to be a top 10 pick, let alone get #2 bonus money.I wish him well.

stealer6, you could not be more right...

we are a bunch of suckers

Fireworks night, anyone?

Bobbleheads are on me!

alright well this is really starting to get annoying. I need more to this story soon before i snap.

and this isn't really related to the story but does anyone know why my previous posts might've been deleted?

This situation paints the exact illustration of why the Pirates were wrong in keeping their frustrations with Boras quiet. It also details the reasons why if you are going to play business with Boras, you better be prepared to play the game and do it within the established guidelines of the CBA. I blame the Pirates for even getting themselves into this situation.

Now having said that, Boras only wants to make selective comments about the Pirates and MLB that seem to imply there was improper conduct by the Pirates during the negotiations and at the supposed witching hour by MLB for extending the deadline beyond midnight.

This situation either ends in favor of the Pirates/MLB or Alvarez risks the possibility of never receiving a $6 million signing bonus as a draft pick or free agent on his entry level deal.

The ultimate reason why MLB has lost the markets like Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Kansas City, etc is because the means for which these teams can acquire quality talent in the draft or Latin America favors those who are willing and able to spend $10-15 million each year on unknown and unproven youngsters.

The Pirates are now wobbling on the edge of losing the game of chicken with the most successful and hated player agent in the sport, a game they can't possibly lose after the summer purge of hitters Jason Bay and Xavier Nady.

@BK--I think many teams shy away from Boras.  He is said to have a working relationship with about 10 teams according to sports bog:

"Basically Boras has a working relationship with about ten teams: Detroit, Chicago (NL), Boston, Seattle, Arizona, Kansas City, and either of the LA or New York destinations.  Of course he has done deals with others, but they try to avoid him at all costs. "

As for legal angles, I don't understand all of them either.  

One question that no-one seems to ask is why MLB has the time limit they do.  It is the end of the season--why not allow fraft choices to be signed until Dec. 31--or Nov. 30?

No matter what, the Pirates' relationship with Alvarez is off to a rocky start.  Things that begin badly generally end even worse.

Tell the kid goodnight and use the 6 mill to get some power back in the lineup on several free agents........that invloves nut jobs allowing  george washington to see the light of day for a change

if they cave this mgt team is dead man walking.....and even if the kid comes back he'll be booed out of town...

or sign him with the 6 mill and then trade him for some real prospects--seriously--i think that is the best way-- you could wait until the off seson to trade him away

as dock says -'its time to do the do'

@BK--Part of what I am saying is that PA is only one player.  Remember the 1972 Phils--Steve Carlton won 27 games with an ERA of 1.97 and the team went 59-97.  Texas had A-Rod for several years and won nothing.  

We have no idea if PA will be a star--plenty of "Can't miss" high draft choices (Chad Hermanson) who never did much.  

Whatever happens will not the salvation of the franchise or the destruction of it.

@bucs ct--<and this isn't really related to the story but does anyone know why my previous posts might've been deleted>

See the following at the top of the blog as possibilities..

Did you "FLAME" Boras or PBC??

Register to comment

Guide to commenting

It would serve this moron right to suffer a career-threatening injury before signing the contract.  Not that I would wish that on anyone, but the kid should use his head.  Who would risk 6 million to gain $200,000?

@ JAL

I have a question for you.

So what if the deadline is any other time (later in the year). What diference would it make if Boras still holds his clients until the deadline.

Someone suggested that all paperwork signed sealed and delivered by whatever deadline is in force should be made.

I  like that!  Nothing after in any circumstance.

This will in effect limit

@JAL--<It is the end of the season--why not allow fraft choices to be signed until Dec. 31--or Nov. 30?>

Great Q

You would probably have the same result and situation we are in right now just at a later date. Is my thought..Maybe even angrier tones for dragging on 6 months or so.

JHadar: "So the Cubs sent Boras to law school.  Looks like they're making all sorts of trouble for us this week."

Hahaha...wow. Thanks for the laugh on an otherwise sad evening for this franchise!

gee I sent before completing.  (Sounds like what is happening)

This will in effect limit any confusion or situations like we are having.

Plus it will restrict the time some of these kids in getting a headstart in their careers.

I see BillyKidd agrees as well.

@madturk2008  and BK:

Quite true--it could still drag out but more time with the pressures of the season gone could lead to better talks.  Would it make things better or worse--I can see arguments both ways.  Just an avenue worth discussion.   As BK says--could get angrier.  Also could be calmer.  I am advocating a change--just tossing the idea out for discussion--which i got :)

@JAL

In that case you did well grasshopper.

That should have read I am NOT advocating a change

Let him go back intc the draft, redraft him next year, offer him the $200,000 that he wants and he can either take it or go to Japan to play!!!

@BK thanks for the heads up on that, i just now looked i think i did at least 2 of those in my earlier posts, most of them being vulgar and profane attacks at Boras. And for that i apologize for how i put it in words and i know i could've done much better than that, but i do really mean everything i said.

madturk, thanks and pretty funny remarks.  me being the guy who keeps saying it will take time but things will be ok. ha ha

I am now leaning with those who say let him go, if he will allow his agent to disrespect the game so shamelessly he may just be a bad seed.  

I say again that I think it a Boras move to break the deadline rule as evidenced by his remarks around signing time stating he thinks the deadline is unfair to the players.

I think Boras has earned one bit of respect from us Bucco fans and we should thank him with a new nik-name, let me be the first to submit a name   Bullship Boras

wow i just thought of this, but what if Scott Boras was looking at the blog as we said all this. Hmmm that wouldn't be too good.

@HighPlains--<Who would risk 6 million to gain $200,000?>

Which got me thinking is it really the money? If Boras gets 10%=20K.

There is a WHOLE lot more to this story than Boras wanting 200,000 or the title of highest paid bonus. Even for some one as arrogant as Boras.

Heck the minute PA signed with the Bucs if not before, Boras could have had marketing deals inked for 10X that 200K.

Something is very very wrong here folks.

@madturk2008  

Thank you master :)  Now to break some boards!

@BK--As I posted earlier--It is not the money--it is ego.  With his clients Boras makes good money.  

@bucs ct--Awhile back iIreally flamed one of the negative naysayers (NN) ugly bad...I even had to wash my hands for typing such bad things and the moderator sent me an e-mail...about a week or 2 later those suggested rules of engagement were posted

@jersey joe

Thanks for the kudos

@JAL

Over Boras/PA/mangements heads?

SURE!

Boras, Boras, Boras. He is no dummy, he is just furthering his reputation. Pedro, Pedro, Pedro...you were smart to hire the best in the business, I don't blame you for that. But now you need to see that Boras is no longer working for your interests. Show how valuable that Vandy education was and fire him now, not for us fans, but for yourself. It's in your best interest to end this fiasco and get back to what you do best...play ball. You probably are scared that Boras will sue you....Fine, so what? All he would be entitled to is his percentage of the deal that YOU ALREADY AGREED TO! You can't lose by firing him, you can lose by keeping him.

Ok guys

If I remember correctly if he (PA) doesn't sign he goes back to Vandy for his senior year and must be redrafted next June, however he may not be redrafted by the Pirates without his written premission

Yes it would be good if SB were reading this...He would know to never announce his intentions to visit anywhere with in 100 miles or more of here.

JAL  = think Boras grasped the contract from the Pirates hands?

I for one put the onus on PA.  Boras is works for HIM.  If he wanted to honor the agreement he made, he could simply tell Boras to drop it. These anitcs really do not reflect well on PA's character.  I think that I may hold a grudge against this kid.

It has been fun.  Must get a few things done around the place now. Everyone have good rest of the night.  

@BILLYKIDD

Something is very very wrong here folks.

I agree, Boras is looking for / trying to create a loophole that he can exploit until the next CBA is in place.

He figured the "hapless" Pirates would be his best avenue.....I guess he thought wrong.

@BillyKidd

Good point, He may want to be careful if there are Pirate fans around the country like what we have with the Steelers.

madturk -

I agree that the couch, Jack & Coke was not enough. So I went out to Friendly's for some ice cream. When I came back, there were 84 new posts. So, now I need another Jack & Coke. It's a viscious circle.

@BK

If he were reading he might need to learn to not announce that he is coming in the state.

Also, the ESPN.com story has a good amount of comments after it and it is really interesting to read what other people have to say(more interesting than this actual confusing/heartbreaking story).

@JAL--I agree somewhat SB has an ego bigger than the Gand Canyon. I just can not see him after thinking about this since it was announced that he would put his star draft pick in such a potentially precarious position. If it was 750K - 1M maybe....But remember also that each of the top picks were paid way above "slot" not that that meant much. But it was a bench mark that they blew by. I hope you are right and it is an ego thing and SB gets his ego stepped on big time. I just am not sure that the possibility of losing face with his client is good for the SB ego either

PA is agreeing to this all the way.  Boras works for him.  This would not be happening if PA did not agree to it.  The question is, when the arbitration is over and this grievance is dismissed, how do we as Pirate fans react.  Do we now boo PA because we know he does not want to be here?  No matter what happens, this cannot end well.

@G-man--What flavor(s)?

@gr8ful--I think if he this ends with him signing and he does well and moves up and here quickly...We will forgive and forget. Until contract time. If he gets here and plays poorly all bets are off.

If Aramis Ramirez gets booed in Pittsburgh by getting traded away through no fault of his own, can you imagine the reaction if PA ends up with another NL team...He might get the Dave Parker "D" cell treatment!

G-Man Welcome back.  Hope you spiked the ice cream?

Catch up and give your insights if you are coherent enough.

I know you have informants everywhere.

Now where is Baywatch?

>> Do we now boo PA because we know he does not want to be here?  

If PA is as good as advertised all will be forgiven.

I had reports that he was trying to get his kid back from NC.  

lawnbeaver, I did laugh when I read hold a grudge against the kid

I also like the idea that we should release him then draft him next year ......too bad it is mentioned he would have to sign off to be redrafted by the Pirates.

all this comotion and we forget to at least mention Duke had a good game today.

every now and then it is good to have a little release

there is a young lad named duke

who zeroed tonight like a nuke

were the cubbies tired

being a little overwired

or did zach just get a return of his juke

Where has it been stated "He does not want to be here."

Bay just hits hits a triple ( double earlier)t............can we trade the NOt $6 mill wonder boy straight up for him?

@mad--I think Bay is fine with Bayjr in NC...earlier post had G-man offering half his take from  the HAP CAP concession.

How nice of you G :)

I think the PBC deserves some kudos for doing things right here.

They drafted the best player despite his having Boras as an agent.

They paid him market rate (almost said fair, but $6mil for an unproven player is ridiculous in my book)

They offered that contract early in the negotiations giving his a chance to start playing right away.

Even though they would have been within their rights to call out Pedro for not showing up, they took the high road and kept things private until everything came to a head.

Regardless of how this turns out, I cannot fault the management on this one.

For anyone who wants to check it out, Jim Callis from Baseball America did a chat (if a link has already been posted, I apologize.  I'm not reading through over 100 comments)

proxy.espn.go.com/.../chatESPN

Yes, you have to be an Insider on ESPN.com to read it.  No, I'm not posting the parts about Alvarez.  About every 5th question in the chat was about Alvarez or Hossmer and the deadline.  

I certainly want to be rooting for PA at PNC and agree we will quickly forget if things work out.  I cannot figure out what can be gained from this by either Boras or PA.  If PA's contract is void, he goes back to Vandy and risks getting less money next year.  $6 mil for an unproven rookie is more than enough.  What could Boras gain from this?  Mind boggling.

I believe in other reports, I have seen MLB say that the midnight deadline was pushed back for minor league contracts.  This makes me believe that the deal was done after midnight.  Although, in initial reports it was said that the Pirates agreed to the deal at 11:59 pm.  Does this mean that the Pirates were not truthful about the time the deal was done?  

BIllyKidd -

>>Yes it would be good if SB were reading this...He would know to never announce his intentions to visit anywhere with in 100 miles or more of here<<

Yes, kind of the way Art Modell would never go back to Cleveland after he moved the Browns to Baltimore.

So based upon DK's 9:21PM report...We get to do this dance marathon for at least 14 days until the earlest arbrtration date hearing....Wonderful.

Kidd -- Whatever happens will not the salvation of the franchise or the destruction of it.

One of the saner comments of the evening.  Put a Star on your hap cap.

BillyKidd -

>>What flavor(s)?<< I cannot remember the name. It is a new Friendly's flavor (according to the menu). It is a coffee ice cream base with chunks of nuts and chocolate in it. I had some fudge sauce, whipped cream and a cherry. I tried to get Boras to renegotiate for an extra cherry, but we missed the deadline. :)

@JH--One of the saner comments of the evening.  Put a Star on your hap cap.

The credit for the star goes to JAL

I was trying to figure out why Boras would take this type of action after the contract had been accepted by his client, the Pirates, and MLB. I'm just wondering if Boras is trying to delay the signing of the contract in order to delay the physical. Maybe there is a health issue with Pedro that Boras is trying to keep the Pirates in the dark about?

@G-Man-- That is the only time tonite I really got a good belly laugh going...You are the man...Thanks :)

Okay DK than what is the problem with getting PA in here and playing now?  Is the union holding him back is some way?

@G-Man Do you think you have grounds (coffee ice cream) to file a grievance with the PICEA Professional Ice Cream Eaters Association?

Darn you JHadar I am still waiting for a Hap Cap and now you have a star on top of it.  I am calling Boras to negoiate with G-man to get one.  enough is enough already  :-o

Wouldn't it be funny if it turns out that SB had absolutly nothing to do with this whole situation? Only to try and honestly look out for his client(s) according to the CBA.

madturk -

>>Catch up and give your insights if you are coherent enough.<<

As someone wiser than me once said: "The more I know the less I know." My take at this point is that we already know the truth, as we thought it to be in mid-afternoon compared to what was said hours later, appears to have been bent by MLB and the Pirates regarding when the contract was agreet to. I think we all believed, on 8/16, that the deal was closed minutes before midnight. Now, we are finding out that there was some sort of extension. Consequently, I am not believing anything I hear from anybody until the grievance is heard. And even then, I doubt we'll ever hear the whole truth and nothing but the truth. My personal opinion is that Boras didn't like what happend, found a way to sic the Players Association on MLB and is letting them do his dirty work. He figures he has little to lose and could be setting new baseball labor law/precedent that he can use to his advantage in the future. I don't now how much of it is ego and how much is money, but I'm betting a little of each but mostly about money in the long run, not just Pedro, but future draft picks he will represent.

What it all comes down to for us as Buc fans is whether we get Alvarez or not and what PBC pays him if he signs. We'll find out in a couple of weeks. Until then...

Any more angst over this on my part is just not worth the cost of extra Lisonopril tablets (my blood pressure medicine of choice) to me.

DK - I mean if Boras, Pirates, MLB office nor PA have an issue why has he not shown up yet?  If the matter with the Union is about the process that would be a separate issue no?

BillyKidd -

You are quite welcome for the laugh. It's what I do. You probably remember me from my old TV series, "Seinfeld." I co-starred with Dave Littlefield who played Kramer, Scott Boras who played George, and Pirata13 who played Elaine.

If I had to guess at this point what is going on, it is that Boras has a carefully calculated plan to disrupt the draft system to put more power in the hands of the players, and Pedro Alvarez is his tool for doing it. Settling for the same amount of money that had initially been offered at the last second (or one second too late as it turns out) makes so much more sense now that this scenario has begun to unfold.

You can only this ends well for the Pirates. I'm anxious to learn what the possibilities are for what happens next.  But I think one thing is clear, Scott Boras doesn't just try to do what is best for the individual client he is acting on behalf of at the moment, he has a program with a goal of changing the system to generate more money for both him and his clients down the road. If you are going to go with Boras, you had better be ready to get with the program.

madturk -

>>I am still waiting for a Hap Cap and now you have a star on top of it<<

I am feeling generous tonight, and I don't want any jealousy among commenters. So, I hereby award you a Hap Cap for suggesting the Jack & Coke to me earlier. It was YUM-O.

    __/_H_\

Ah G-Man I am referring to the latest update from DK.

If the understanding is that neither Boras, PA or anyone else is at fault .

Here is the quote I am questioning.

"To repeat, the grievance was not filed by Alvarez or Boras, and it is not aimed at the Pirates. It is at the commissioner's office on a procedural matter.

Another point: The idea that the arbitrator will just discard the verbal agreement comes with no precedent. None. Arbitrators leave and breathe off precedent."

From this I would say that it's the Union.  But why now and why was PA not here, signed, sealed and delievered by now.

Do we know when the Union filed this complaint?

This is the answer I would like to hear.

I just have to point out that DK had made the following post:

"Pirates, Alvarez AGREE to terms; Scheppers unsigned

By Dejan Kovacevic | 12:36 a.m. Saturday

The Pirates and first-round draft pick Pedro Alvarez agreed to contract terms, just before the midnight deadline Friday: $6 million bonus, plus college.

More in a bit.

12:40 a.m.: Tanner Scheppers and all the other unsigned picks remained that way. I have to do newspaper work for a little while, so fill in the blanks yourselves for a little while. Q&A later this morning. Oh, and the contract is minor league.

12:44 a.m.: Neal Huntington, on Scheppers: "We are disappointed that we were unable to reach an agreement with our second-round selection Tanner Scheppers, but we knew when we selected Tanner that we might not be in a position to sign him by the August 15 deadline. Despite the quality efforts of both parties, it became clear that Tanner's financial expectations were not in line with the risks presented by Tanner's current status as a pitcher in the early stages of a rehabilitation program following an injury to his throwing shoulder. Unfortunately, Tanner's rehabilitation program timeline changed dramatically from what his representative presented to us prior to the draft. Had Tanner been able to demonstrate that he was fully recovered from the injury he suffered towards the end of his 2008 season at Fresno State, we are confident that we could have found common ground on the economic terms of a contract. Selecting Tanner in the second round was a calculated risk from the outset. We knew when we selected him that, if he was able to show that he had recovered fully from his injury, we could have secured a first-round talent with our second-round selection. Because that did not happen, however, we will receive the 49th selection in next year's draft as compensation. We were willing to take the risk involved in selecting Tanner for two reasons. First, a club that is unable to sign its second-round selection now receives "same slot" compensation in the next draft. Second, we made the strategic decision to select several players with early round talent later in the draft regardless of their signability. As a result of this decision, we were able to sign two players, Robbie Grossman and Quinton Miller, each of whom received strong consideration with our second round selection."

Posted Aug 15 2008, 11:55 PM by..."

I really think the Pirates will win this 100%     But I do wish I would have saved some RSS feeds from that night.

I have scoured & compiled the whole story on the Alvarez saga, from the time he was drafted leading up to the date he was signed & after reading over this material time & time again, it really does seem that Frank & Neal lied to us all about this deal. If you read the actual rules about the deadline, it can only be extended unilaterally if 'all parties involved' are ok with it - I hate to say it, however, I think that the Bucs are going to end up with a major case of 'egg on the face' when this is all said & done - According to the deadline rules, Boras would have had to be consulted as well in order for an extension to take place & at no time was that mentioned by the bucs-further, I never noticed a time where Alvarez said that Boras was no longer his agent & in most legal circles, any contract signed verbally or otherwise would need to be handled in the presence of his representative...

I get a really really bad feeling about this....

If nothing else it is crystal clear now that Neal (at the very least) lied to us all when he stated that the deal was completed at 11:59PM, when by their own admission today, it was not. I am greatly concerned that the ramifications of this 'error' could cost the bucs & cheapskate owners around the league very very dearly. If this flies back in the face of Selig et al & they are forced to reopen the CBA, believe you me, Selig will push for the bucs to be contracted the next time this comes around - thats all we need is for 'Slick' Buddie to have it in for us.

Dejan,

My read on the issues are as follows:

1.  MLB says the greivance is meritless because the MLBPA has no standing to challenge Minor League countract issues, which is what Mr. Alvarez agreed to verbally - a MINOR League contract.

2.  The MLBPA states the Office of the Comissioner unilaterally changed the rules for the entry draft unilaterally by extending the "deadline" in violation of the CBA.

Am I correct?

Oops thanks G-Man it's better when it's earn but I wil take it because I am felling a little tippsy (do they stil say that?)

Did I just lose it now for the last post?  

We needed you alll day and evening, this place was a zoo, BillyKidd, JHadar and a few of us other regs tried to keep it somewhat sane to no avail.

Another Jack or two an I am a gonner.  Yikes i have to pick up the wife later this evening.

www.nutsonline.com/jericho

What should we send Scott Boras?

Scott D Boras, Inc

18 Corporate Plaza

Newport Beach, CA

949-760-0188

@apauld

Hate to be the bearer of bad news for you, however, that information actually proves that Neal lied about the timing of the signing & you have to wonder, if that was a lie, what else is a lie-----did Neal or Frank ever even speak to Boras? Boras has mentioned on other occasions that Neal & Frank also never approached him about Nady (Nady confirmed this as well) Are these just little 'white lies' or is there something really nasty in here?

madturk -

Don't forget this quote from the Pirates press release: "Boras further informed us that Pedro will not report to the Club unless we renegotiate his contract and agree to pay him more than the $6 million signing bonus to which he agreed."

The way I see it, Boras is in no hurry to act until he sees how the grievance plays out. If he moves first, he sets - let's call it a precedent and loses any leverage. He is hoping he can get a re-negotiation. He has nothing to lose unless the ruling comes down the contract is void and Alvarez has to wait a year. It is only my opinion but I doubt that will happen. Some other compromise will probably be reached. If the contract is valid, PA still gets his $6MM, just a few weeks later. But Boras and PA might get something out of this for being patient and waiting. Of course, all this is just my opinion. We're dealing with lying weasel lawyers and players unions here.

Maybe if the pirates wouldnt try to be so freaking cheap with everything that they do then maybe this would be happening..

im not blaming it all on them but it just makes me sick to be soo cheap all the time..

It's after 10 and I was up late last night watching that gawd-awful game. I'm outta here for tonight. Sleep well and try not to dream of "Boras Badenov."

@G-Man--Sleep well my friend. Good night and God Bless.

You know this really is a sucky day to be a pirates fan :(

No matter how this turns out, now, all the 'best athletes' have to do to avoid going to Pittsburgh (and really who can blame them) is simply choose Boras as their agent - not only will they receive a great signing bonus, they will also not be tied to this titanic of a franchise.

Alh G-Man I think you have lifted the fog that I am in.

After all the posts and reports I have read.  Have  you noticedvthat I quit putting in the coke and went straight to the Jack alone.

May be the reason I lost sight of everything else.

foggy is feeling a littler groggy

I think you guys are jumping the gun here a bit.  No times have been disclosed, and Huntington nor the Pirates have admitted that it was, in fact, past midnight.  Until they come out and say that, we won't know.  Let's also remember that Boras has called in late before.  Last year with Matt Weiters, the Orioles are on record saying he didn't call them until 11:55.  Could they have gotten that one done before midnight?  Doubt it.

Good night all. DK as usual you are the best at what you do. All I really can say is Thank you.

In that chat with Jim Callis of Baseball America link, he said that he heard from sources that both Hosmer(is that his name?) and Alvarez were granted extensions for negotiating, however he was unable to confirm Pedro's but he was able to confirm the other.

Also regarding if FC and NH really did approach SB, he had said in an earlier story not long after the draft or in late july, can't really remember, that he enjoyed talking with the new management team.

Ditto on what BillyKidd just said.

Later folks

Maybe Alvarez is stalling because he does not want to take a physical...hiding a bum knee, steroids or weed?.

Scott Boras is a piece of crap.  I can see what he's thinking.  He's done this up to the deadline tango many times and in he's figured out a plausible new way to push the bargaining bar even higher.

It is clear to me that Scott Boras is a dishonorable man.  If Pedro Alvarez is on board for this kind of crap then he's no better than his high profile piece of crap lawyer.

The only thing to be done is to make sure that Alvarez plays for the Pirates.  Nothing could punish him more.

I hate Scott Boras.  He is a dishonorable man and a piece of crap.  

Et tu Pedro?

Well give Boras credit for one thing. He's given us all some fodder for the next couple weeks to take our minds off the total on field collapse.

There are three possibilities that today's actions make me think of:

1 and most likely) Boras is salty over having the Pirates, of all teams, stand up to him and this is major grandstanding by him. Maybe he absolutely can't stand that another player not repd by him got more money and he either feels jealous and/or threatened by this. Ultimately, shame on Pedro for going along with this if that is the case.

2) Pedro is hiding some sort of injury and this is a way of buying more time.

3) Pedro simply does not want to play for the Pirates given the magnitude of failure over the last going on two decades. Maybe he and Boras planned this all along who knows?

No matter how this turns out and no matter what anyone says, relations between Alvarez and the Pirates have been permanently damaged to some degree by today's actions. Pedro's character and credibility have really come into question now. I wonder now, even if Pirates win and the contract is valid, if he might just pull a Manny over not getting what he feels he deserves..... just put in his six years of servitude and get the heck out of the Burgh. I would also think at this point, as long as Boras is his agent, the probably of any future contracts with the Pirates after this initial one of very close to zero.

I hope anyone can see now why Nady was not going to be here after 2009 at the latest.

On the Nady trade front: If the pirates are correct in saying that they offered pdro the 6M at the outset and Bullship Boras never talked to them, then why in the worls would they even think they could talk to him about Nady.

This a good enough answer for us.

May I repen: Bullship Boras is the worst thing to hit baseball since marvin miller.

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