Pirates get catcher Diaz from Toronto

I'll take it.

And Mr. Diaz goes where? Third catcher in September?

The guy is listed as a DH on the Jay's site.  He's on their 40 man, so I assume we have to add him to ours.  The Jays site has him hitting .244 @ AAA, vs. the .280 on DK's link.  He's only 24, soon to be 25, so at least he's young.

I don't think this is really much to get excited about either way.  

Say good-bye to Paulino...

Sayonara, Ronnie Paulino.

Of course, this leads me to having a question for the chat, 1 hour too late.

Paulino has hit great in Indy. Getting rid of him now would be a low-value move, but NH doesn't much seem to care when he's clearing what he views as "dead wood" from the DL era - remind me what we got from the Brewers in return for giving them their best reliever?

So, in chat form, my question is: does Paulino have any future with this club, or will NH send him away for little/nothing? I don't see how we get anything for him as long as he's in AAA purgatory.

I like the fact that he's been in the Jays system for 8 years (signed at 17), says something about their belief in him ... also, according to minorleaguebaseball.com, he was a Futures Game selection in 2007.

He's made the post-season all-star teams at all his stops.

Plenty -

>>And Mr. Diaz goes where? Third catcher in September?<< Excellent question. Of late, managment has set a clear precedent for ridding itself Dave Littlefield players. We were expecting Paulino to get a September call-up. Now, my money's on Diaz for that.

Poor guy, he thought he was going unnoticed while playing in canada wait until he starts playing in front of dozens and dozens of fans while battling for sixth place with the red legs.

I don't think Ronnie goes immediately. I think he gets a shot at spring training next year and if he's looking anything like he's has looked in the bigs so far, he'll get the boot.

with chavez probably going to an old age home after this year i think this is a nice move to push ronny in the off season so he doesn't think he is going to walk into the #2 position at pnc.

If ronny works as hard in the offseason to get into shape like ryan did, we could actually have a decent backup, or some nice trade bait.

when you have ryan though, who cares about your backup catcher? although, it would be nice for doumit to play rt field, or first base.

i35.tinypic.com/2gtdqoh.jpg

Yes, boo-hoo, You're right, Paul Alexander's Man Tan ... I can't believe that poor, poor Robbie Diaz has been purged to baseball's answer to Siberia ...

Haw! You thought you had me trapped in your negative defecation (did I spell it right, G-Man?) ... Get thee behind me, Satan!

I agree with phillyjake. Not a bad pick up but nothing to get too excited about.

OK, there's a LOT more info here than when I started my post!

Put me down with the consensus on this one.  Blue Jays and Pirates Trade Spare Parts.

Baywatch

I think i am going to make a list of "negative nancies" that post on here. First on my list is obviously ron d, but ManTan is making a strong case for number 2

I would have preferred the catcher Jeroloman  but this guy will do. On to another topic.

Ownership, Free agents & Trades

After scanning the list of upcoming free agents I would like to throw a question out to all of you.

Pretend it is  August 1 and no Bay or Nady deals have been made because Nutting called NH & FC into his office to tell them that he has decided to expand the payroll by 40 million next year.

Fast forward to 4/1/09 and the Pirates acheived the following over the winter:

1. Traded Jack Wilson,  Freddie Sanchez, Gorzo and Duke for prospects.

2. Signed Orlando Hudson, Orlando Cabrera(or Furcal), Jason Jennings, Ben Sheets and AJ Burnett.  

3. Expanded payroll from 50 to 90 million.  This assumes signing the 5 free agents for an average of 13 mil apiece and deleting salaries of traded players plus Morris.

09 lineup and starters

Doumit  c

LaRoche  1B

Hudson  2B

Cabrera/Furcal  SS

Bautista  3B

Bay McLouth Nady   OF

Starters  Jennings, Burnett, Sheets, Maholm, Snell

Question-  Would you fellow bloggers prefer this to what we are doing now with our major league club?

Down in Indianapolis, Ronny Paulino goes "Oh-oh"...

I would not like th $90 million team. Furcal, Cabrera and Hudson are too old to sign to long term contracts.  Jennings and Sheets have had trouble staying healthy. Burnett has is streaky and has had injuries too.

I like the moves NH has been making.  What isn't clear on the $90million team is who comes back for jack W., Sanchez and Gorzy.

welcome young robinson. here is the bus schedule to and from indianapolis. keep your ground when covering home and hold onto the ball when doing so. we like catchers with blood and dirt on the uni.

cave...90 mil and you still have bautista and [any] laroche? ouch.

I don't know if Cave's scenario is at all realistic - $90M seems like a lot of money, esp. since it wouldn't guarantee a playoff spot (his lineup would've been a lock 3 years ago, but in '09?) - but it sure would make for a more interesting team to follow. I have trouble imagining why I would go to games next year - I expect to see possibly the worst team of the 17 year losing streak, barring every single SP maxing out his potential.

Gee, Cave ... I may be a bit naive, but ... it doesn't seem like your lineup is all that of a significant upgrade to me.

Is that all there is on the free agent market this year ... I mean is that the best of the lot? I mean Burnett is 16-9 this year, but will be 32 in January, and basically for his whole career has only pitched .500.

Jason Jennings is 0-5 with Texas this year, and only had one good year in 2002, when he was 16-8. He's pretty much sucked since then.

Is this your point, Cave?

Guy looks like a decent hitter but the key will be if he can play defense.  DK, any word on this?

@Cave

Nice to dream but even if Nutting did raise payroll, there's no chance in h*ll that amount of free agent talent is coming to Pittsburgh.

@Cave

Nice to dream but even if Nutting did raise payroll, there's no chance in h*ll that amount of free agent talent is coming to Pittsburgh.

[when you have ryan though, who cares about your backup catcher? although, it would be nice for doumit to play rt field, or first base.]

The fact that Ryan will play a maximum of 120-130 games per year as the backstop is enough for me to care who the backup is. Remember, even with his newfound exercise regimen, that kid is very injury prone. Besides leg injuries, he has added concussions & dehydration to his list of ailments. If we are ever to actually compete for a championship while Doumit is manning the plate, we better all be very concerned who his backup is....Also, I know this has been pretty much completed placed as 'the pitchers fault' across the board for their terrible showing this year, anybody else wonder why (to a man) the ERAs of pitchers caught by Chavez is almost 2 runs lower than Doumit's?

If pitching really is that important, wouldn't it behoove us to put Doumit somewhere else to protect his body & his apparent misguided playcalling/pitcherhandling - Karstens first couple of starts was with Chavez (I do believe) & his near perfect game was definitely with Chavez. Maybe Ryan simply does not know how to adequately read hitters + let's face facts, he is a simply god-awful backstop...he is a Passed Ball machine - maybe that affects the Pitcher's confidence in his breaking stuff (especially with runner's on)?

Cave:   Freddy, Gorzo & Duke aren't going to bring in the pieces to make them worth trading right now.

Are we overlooking Maldanado at Indy? He was one of the two who reported to spring training out of shape - forget who the other guy was, a pitcher - the first ones banished to Indy.

I predict we see him cut pretty soon, and keep Ronny until we're able to get another Robby Diaz back in return.

Hey, maybe by cutting Paulino, we can use his money to keep Dirty Doug on board for another year!

BayW

You are right about Jennings, bad choice.

What I thought would be interesting would be to use a 90 million payroll next year while keeping Nady and Bay.  DK provided the free agent list on his morning post.  

You can tinker with it any way you want. One of my options was to keep Freddy and play him at 3rd.  

My point is that if Nutting opens his wallet, there are many options available to improving this team soon.  

@concernedChris-

You bring up something I was talking about with a friend of mine recently, and has largely gone unnoticed this year.  Last year we kept hearing about the differences in ERA between Paulino and Doumit behind the plate.  Unless his defense and pitch calling improve dramatically, I really do think that Ryan is not meant to be a big league catcher.

However, while having a "breakout" year, his stats only look that great because of his position.  Put him at another "power" position, i.e. first base or right field, and Doumit's production becomes average at best.

To extend a bit:

I expect the likely '09 team to consist of a regressing McLouth and Doumit (if only due to being the only legit hitters on the team); a typical half-season from the elder LaRoche; replacement-level play at best from Little LaRoche and Moss (or anyone else in RF); absolutely nothing from SS, and maybe a half bounceback from Freddy; and AMcCutcheon having a typical rookie season - streaky and ultimately ineffective.

IOW, I see a team where we could have 3 starters with ERAs under 4 and W-L under .500. If we don't get at least that level of starting, it's a 100-loss team, easy.

TBH, looking at that team, I have a lot of trouble seeing how it turns into this mythical contender in 2010 - with optimistic assumptions, we're short an OF, 2B, and SS in 2010. Go Bucs!

Doumit has to move to right field/firstbase soon.  His bat is too valuable to the lineup.  I've seen enough of his catching to know he won't be there long term.  Maybe this Diaz and Paulino will be the catching tandem next year.  I know they want Doumit to qualify for the batting title, but it is time to give him days off.  He should catch every other day come September.  Toronto had catching depth to deal and I do like the return for Bautista.  Neal is showing he can make deals happen.   Doumit really should be moved out from behind the plate.  I know the outfield and right infield corner positions are somewhat crowded, but maybe Neal will find a bounty for Doumit.  Maybe acquiring Diaz is the beginning of a Doumit trade.  Just guessing.

Cave - I see. But I guess I've envisioned bringing in free agents as being pretty much a lock on playoff stuff ... like Soriano to the Cubs, and all the guys the Yankees get.

Yours was an interesting lineup, but for my money, I don't know ... maybe I'm sounding a little tight here but Ben Sheets doesn't do anything for me ... His ERA is pretty nice this year, but he's only 11-7 with a TEAM THAT CAN HIT.

I'm not a big Orlando Hudson fan ... Furcal, like the rest of them, is getting old, plus he's damaged goods now.

But it's interesting, to say the least ... I guess worst case scenario is you spend a bunch of money, and wind up like Seattle did this year! Talk about fan backlash.

I was hoping for another "power arm" for the bullpen in this deal.  Maybe this opens the door for Doumit to move to the OF or 1B (assuming they dump Adam "half-season" LaRoach).  As injury prone as he is, I don't see him having a long career at C.  

"Put him at another "power" position, i.e. first base or right field, and Doumit's production becomes average at best."

Well, he hits in 6 months of the season, so that's a huge upgrade over what we have at 1B right now.*

I'm not necessarily an advocate of moving Doumit, just sayin'.

* OK, did some research - Doumit's current OPS would put him at #4 in the NL at 1B, .005 behind Texeira. And, let's face it, his numbers almost certainly get a bump without the physical grind at C. He'd be a respectable RF, too, but definitely less outstanding, and more of a defensive liability.

I would say move Doumit to 1B but with the way he lets balls past him behind the plate that might be a big mistake.

this guy is a 3 star prospect on scout.com, and #4 overall catcher in the minor leagues, id have to say this is a great trade by NH

"However, while having a "breakout" year, his stats only look that great because of his position.  Put him at another "power" position, i.e. first base or right field, and Doumit's production becomes average at best."

Really? Then why does he have a team best average and had a team best average until the last week Nady was on the team?  We have .330 average guys at the corners? Seriously?

Trading Gorzo would be a huge, huge mistake.  His value is at its lowest point, and his talent level is much higher than anything we'd get in return.  Sanchez is damaged goods and wouldn't fetch anything.  And Duke is an enigma, why sell him for a bag of balls?  He clearly needs time in the minors to rebuild his confidence and figure out what's wrong.  For a lefty he throws hard enough, perhaps it's as simple as working on another pitch.  Better to have him do it in the minors or long relief than give him away.

In regards to free agents, everyone misses the larger point: NO ONE WANTS TO COME TO PITTSBURGH.

:-)

To get them to come you have to GROSSLY OVERPAY.  And why should Nutting do that, to win 82 games?  You overpay when you're one or two pieces away from a championship, not when you have more holes than a box of donuts.

The best approach is one that both the Steelers and (recently) the Penguins employ: draft and develop your own talent, pay your worthy performers while cutting off the dead weight, and when you have a chance to win you supplement your core carefully with outside pieces (free agents).

Trading Bay and Nady was the sensible move... the ONLY move.  Anyone who thinks we were close to fielding a regularly competitive team is delusional.  

Sorry if that comes across as brash, but sometimes the truth hurts... :-)

::::::NEWS ALERT::::::DATELINE: REALITY::::::::NEWS ALERT::::::

DIRTY DOUG IS NOT COMING BACK TO PITTSBURGH NEXT SEASON

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Sorry to be a fly in your soup, but Doug wants to be on a winning team. He does not strike me as a Crash Davis type who would be content "coming to the ball park every day and keep getting paid" type of guy. The man wants to win, just like most of the fans.

Hey, Guys ... This is Ryan's first year behind the plate. He's probably STILL getting used to the daily grind - no matter how great of shape he was in when he reported to camp this year.

Plus, would you believe this ... He's still learning.

I say next year he'll be much better - and have another spring in with Sanguillen!

You all raise good points, though.

Trading Gorzo would be a huge, huge mistake.  His value is at its lowest point, and his talent level is much higher than anything we'd get in return.  Sanchez is damaged goods and wouldn't fetch anything.  And Duke is an enigma, why sell him for a bag of balls?  He clearly needs time in the minors to rebuild his confidence and figure out what's wrong.  For a lefty he throws hard enough, perhaps it's as simple as working on another pitch.  Better to have him do it in the minors or long relief than give him away.

In regards to free agents, everyone misses the larger point: NO ONE WANTS TO COME TO PITTSBURGH.

:-)

To get them to come you have to GROSSLY OVERPAY.  And why should Nutting do that, to win 82 games?  You overpay when you're one or two pieces away from a championship, not when you have more holes than a box of donuts.

The best approach is one that both the Steelers and (recently) the Penguins employ: draft and develop your own talent, pay your worthy performers while cutting off the dead weight, and when you have a chance to win you supplement your core carefully with outside pieces (free agents).

Trading Bay and Nady was the sensible move... the ONLY move.  Anyone who thinks we were close to fielding a regularly competitive team is delusional.  

Sorry if that comes across as brash, but sometimes the truth hurts... :-)

Johnny Nez - Good points. And I don't think you sound brash at all.

Preach it, Bro!

I would rather have Nutting spend an extra 40 million on this team and see where that leads us than to keep it in his pocket. After all, it's his money.  

This is not a zero sum game as ownership has led us to believe.  They can spend on free agents, spend on keeping their good players, spend to build up the minor league system via the Rule 4 and int'l drafts, spend on the Dominican Academy, spend to bring in top flight scouts, instructors(Brian Tracy c'mon), and front office personnel(including GM).  There are plenty of ways to spend without excluding the others.  

I for one would love to see an extra 40 million be put out there to bring us a winning ballclub.  

Maybe I am just selfish.  

If you are raising payroll another $40 million, I would make a strong push for CC Sabathia

Another way to look at things is that the PBC would have finished at least 20 games back this year even with Nady and Bay. Assuming they are here for 09, that means you need to bring in two FA pitchers that will guarantee 15-20 wins each to make that up.  I do not see two pitcherswith  that kind of talent making it past the NY's, Boston. LA, or for that matter Tampa Bay who has the cash and now has a taste of winning and is ready to make that big move.  On top of that if one of those pitchers or any of the position player gets hut or tanks, there is no one in AAA to take their place. You end up spending a ton a money and still not getting where you want to go. (See Baltimore 07 & 08, Seattle 08, or Detroit 08.)  As much as it hurts, the Bucs made the right choice to give up a couple of seasons and shore up the farm before spending at the top. I see the Pirates being competitive but falling short in 2010, and then making the FA moves to go over the top in 2011.

" Anyone who thinks we were close to fielding a regularly competitive team is delusional. "

Why this focus on "regularly" competitive? I mean, I love the idea that, starting in 2010, the Bucs will be in the hunt every year, forever. I also love the idea of Nutting comping me Home Plate Club seats.

With the 2008 offense, this team was 2 mediocre starters from contention (I've demonstrated this here before). Add a stud and 2 mediocre starters, and the team is at least as good as the Brewers. Maybe it's only for 2 years - I'll take 2 years. It's not as if the draft ceases occurring in years when you contend (note that 6 of the prospects we got in trades came from perennial contenders).

Instead, as I said above, we have a guarantee of 1.5 abysmal years, and maybe - just maybe - respectability in 2010. And contention in 2011 - until we trade Maholm, Doumit, and McLouth. For depth. So we can contend "regularly."

On Mienkiewicz -- I'd offer the guy a two or three year contact with a clause to go the coaching/managing side if he couldn't make it as a player.  

We were not t mediocre starters away from contention. We were four starters away from contention.

"Another way to look at things is that the PBC would have finished at least 20 games back this year even with Nady and Bay. Assuming they are here for 09, that means you need to bring in two FA pitchers that will guarantee 15-20 wins each to make that up."

Actually, it mostly means getting rid of pitchers who guarantee 20-25 *losses* each. Morris, Snell, and Gorzo (and Duke since June) have been world-historically bad. We didn't need to replace them with Sabathia and Santana to reach .500.

I like how the pitchers who will get us to "regular" contention were AAA guys for the Yanks and BoSox, but it would have been impossible to find any such FA pitchers

The #1 point I agree with in the "had to blow it up" argument is that, due to lack of depth, no realistic iteration of this team could afford to lose even a single key piece for 2-3 months. Be a damn shame to spend $90M on a 79-83 team with CC Sabathia on the DL.

"We were not t mediocre starters away from contention. We were four starters away from contention."

Sadly, this blog doesn't feature permalinks, so I can't point you to the 1000 words I wrote on this last week. Replace Gorzo and Morris/Snell with 2 utterly mediocre pitchers (one of my examples was Matt Parra), and this team would have had 10 more wins* by the Nady trade, 3-5 of them against the Cubs/Brewers. That makes the Bucs 58-45, TIED with the Cubs for first place.

There are dozens of fair-to-middlin' starters in the league who haven't had a single start as bad as 10 of the guaranteed losses Morris/Gorzo/Snell gave us. I realize that it doesn't actually work to say that those guys don't start the year - obviously, no one expected them to bomb, so there's no way to play it out that they don't. But in fantasy land, this team was exactly 2 mediocre pitchers away.

Open your eyes to the damage these players did: they wrecked this season, all by themselves.

* I pointed to the actual games in question in the previous post

Bay- Great point about Doumit, this his his first full year behind the plate. I agree, that his defense has been horrible, and I also agree with ConcernedChris- it probably has contributed to the pitching staff's poor performance due to lack of confidence in their catcher to block balls in the dirt with runners on.

The larger point is that he will improve. Its his first full year behind the plate, and remember previous (lack of) management had told him that his future would not be behind the dish, so he probably lost some focus on that aspect of his game.

With next year almost certainly going to be yet another rebuilding year, what is the harm of allowing Doumit an entire second year to develop his defense? Current management probably (hopefully) realizes that good defense and game calling behind the plate is easier to learn than is hitting. There are few other catchers in the game today with Ryan's hitting ability, so it would be alot easier to find his equal (run production) capabilites at first and right than it would be behind the plate.

Here's the scoop on Diaz, from BaseballAmerica:

Diaz, 24, was batting .244/.266/.336 in 131 at-bats for Triple-A Syracuse. A sprained right ankle kept Diaz on the disabled list from May 3 through July 16, accounting for his 19 games played in the Gulf Coast and Florida State leagues. A high-contact batter who rarely strikes out or walks, Diaz has exceptional hand-eye coordination (.303 career average) but little power because of his inside-out hitting approach. With loose actions and average arm strength, he gets good cary on his throws, but he remains a below-average game-caller.

iratefan : good luck trying to get a CC Sabbathia or Ben Sheets here.I doubt if the entire $40 mil would attract a top of the rotation guy like that.Get realistic,try to get someone like a Kyle Loshe or a Derek Lowe ( who was taught the slider by the know nothing coach Jeff Andrews ) and an 85 or so RBI guy also. Matt the Rat : as far as I am concerned,you are correct about the starters,and also about Doumit behind the plate.It is only a matter of time till either he or an umpire           ( Davidson hopefully ? )gets hurt when he lets another one get through.I have looked at the situation since the trade,and I really think they are just auditioning Andy L for the 3d base job.And if he can't handle it,they will leave P Alvarez and Walker at that position,and just maybe now send Doumit back to 1st base.

I guess another way to look at things is to ask if the current team is worth 50mil of Nuttings $$.  No one is complaining that he is spending too much and not getting his 50mil $$ worth.   Is he?  No one is clamoring to CUT the payroll.

QUESTION- Comparatively, what is the performance we have got this year worth in $$?  20 mil?  30mil?  5mil?   Based on the players we have, what should our payroll be next year?  25mil sound about right to me.

Pirate'eer : sorry I missed your earlier post regarding Doumit's catching.I couldn't agree more.My own opinion ? Adam La Roche is going to be a goner before next season,take it to the bank ! Who is crazy enough to give this guy a big multi year contract to hit .190 wit 25 RBI's in April,May and June ? Check out the post I made a while ago for my ideas on the 1st base job.

Regarding Diaz,anything would be an improvement over Carlos ( the Sumo man ) Maldonado. I watched this guy play at AA for parts of 2 years,and was totally amazed that some one as fat and out of shape,and with one of the slowest bats I have ever seen,could actually get paid as a professional.

Pizarro -- Thx.  

The injury might explain this year's low numbers, vs. his career stats, but so might the increased competition.

Is this sort of trade becoming a Huntington specialty.  We've heard a lot of about selling high, but very little about the advantages of buying low.  

It would seem that if you take enough of these sorts of chances -- a few of them are going to recover and return to form.

I'd love to have Dirt Doug back again.Any chance we could get him to change his last name though?Most of us are spelling challenged.If he's not back i know we will certainly miss him in the dugout and clubhouse.

@maz--Dirty Doug DD came back Friday and replaced Adam LaRoche @1st when AL was tossed.

Pirates got the better end of that trade.

This guy Diaz has potential. Alot of catchers don't really bloom as hitters until the age of 28 or 29.

Remember Mickey Tettleton?

.244 is actually pretty decent compared to many catchers of the past in their first go-around in Triple A.

They really didn't have another decent catcher in their whole system, and Raul Chavez is up there in age., so it was a need fulfilled.

James Paul : I agree with part of your post,but not this part    completely.( They really didn't have another decent catcher in their whole system ) Miguel Perez is much more than capable defensively particularly,certainly no worse than Maldonado with the bat,and Steve LeRud is  a prospect.Both are with Altoona.

i've been saying for months that doumit is brutal behind the plate....ask any umpire

put him in the OF or at 1b--

nice game tonite by the way for the bucs

they obviously have succumbed to the "Prospect Fever" that almost here have been afflicted with... symptons... dont really haveto play hard anymore..we are still in the propsect phase so if we stink who cares

yea..say it... i'm negative...how cant u be?

ron d - are you sure you're where you belong? You sound like a fan of any professional sport in Philadelphia. Those folks LOVE to hate their team.

No one's holding a gun to your head, right? You can switch teams if it's that painful for you.

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