Pirates vs. Brewers, 8:05 p.m. 08-22-08

Well that may be one way to end the season on a high note. Lets ruin everyones post-season hopes, by playing the roll of spoiler the rest of the season. The Cubs are likely in it, so all we can do is tire them out, a couple 18 inning affairs should work just fine there. And as for the Brewers we just might be able to keep them out of the hunt with a couple of those come from behind wins, that we are so good at this year.

Lets Go Bucs!

btw did anyone show Zach Duke a video of C.C. pitching before today's game yet? It worked for Snell the other day maybe Duke will come out and fireball it tonight. (there is always hope...even in Pittsburgh)

I wonder if we'll see Duke sent down, to return sept 1, ironically 10 days from now.

Plillyjake

Rather than use an option, I think that broken fingernail he has (wink, wink) may put him on the DL.  

Give me Gorzo or give me death.

Cave - It's pretty bad when we have to talk about saving options.  From that perspective, does it really matter?

Good googly moogly!!  63 hits in 43 innings.  That has train wreck written all over it.

Bucco_Jax: I'm pretty sure it was Jeff Andrews that handed Snell the fancy cell phone with C.C. Sabathia highlights the other day ... breaking out the highly tactical methods at the end of the year, to jump start our loser pitchers.

Hypnotism wouldn't be bad, either: "You are pitching like C.C., You are pitching like C.C., You are getting very C.C, ... C.C.

What the ...??? I gotta stop this, I'm getting C.C. myself!

Baywatch, replacing sleepy with C.C....that just totally made my day. Hahaha. Thanks.

You gotta wonder if this is the end for Duke as a Bucco.  I believe he's eligible for arbitration next year.  I don't see the team negotiating with him.

@DC

Hope it is.

dcsump2 & BuccoNation -

>>You gotta wonder if this is the end for Duke as a Bucco<<

Regardless of awful he's pitching, I would be surprised if the Bucs cut him loose (except via a trade). Much of what I read says he's too young to give up on, not that I necessarily agree with that. JVB is a good example of waiting forever and the bus just never comes.

The sad part is, when you watch Duke, you think he is about a half step away from being great.  His mechanics are good, he is a serious player and has a good work ehtic, etc.  He just can't get it together.  Not unlike Snell, I might add.  It is just a shame for Duke because we've seen him be really, really great and really, really bad.  

I used to love going to Miller Park, back in 2001-2004, the Pirates just seemd to own the Brewers back then. I lived a short three hour drive away from Miller so it was the best option to see the Pirates where I live. Now a days, it's hard to get tickets and it's even harder to find a Pirates win there. I went to Brewers.com to get tickets for Saturday three weeks ago and they were sold out. I can't wait until the Brewers are bad again.

C.C.'s offspeed stuff is more devastating than Duke's fastball. I don't see Duke back in a Pirate uniform next season.

Hey, has anyone noticed that when you look at the listing of blogs on the site that it no longer has the total number of comments with the total numbder of topics  just the total number of topics? I'll bet some other bloggers were getting mightly jealous. I smell a conspiracy DK!!!

BigMcLargeHuge - Big LOL at your last sentence, "can't wait until the Brewers are bad again," so you can get a ticket.

I wonder if even the unfortunate ticketless who like the Brewers are saying the same thing! I could not BELIEVE how loud the Brewers crowd came across, on mlb.tv, last time the team was up there, just before the all-star break!

Their shortstop ... oh, yeah, Hardy, the one that can hit ... he gets on some rolls sometimes, but that Braun is just an animal, isn't he!

But, as a blogger said yesterday, they just can't seem to beat the Cubs who have simply brought in the best that money can buy, plus they've got some overzealous types, i.e., Fontenot, Theriot and Reed Johnson, that are just playing over their heads.

But I digress.

emoneypitt -

Re the blog statistics: I spotted that earlier this week. The comment tally for the PBC blog was starting to look like one of those old McDonald's signs that said "Over 1 Billion Served."

I would not be surprised if Duke gets sent down after the game regardless of how he performs and then Gorzo starts over the weekend to extend the rotation.  I would expect Duke and Ohlendorf to join the rotation after 9/1.

Trade Duke straight up for Joe Beimel!  Dude is money with the Dodgers.

I could see the Pirates trying to get Duke for one more year.  They don't have anyone in Indy to replace him.  He has experience and maybe, a huge maybe, he can be a .500 starter.

He needs to keep the ball low and let 'em hit it.  That goes for the whole staff.

@Brakeman

Why would they bother sending Duke down and wasting an option for 10 days?  There's a roster spot open with Bautista's absence.

When I watch Duke pitch I can't help but  think of Jamie Moyer.    He was 7-4 his first year(1986) with the Cubs at age 23.  From 1987 through 1991 he had a combined big league record of 27-50 with an ERA in the high 4's.  

In 1993 at age 30 he started to blossom.  

Can we afford to wait 3 more years.  I don't think so but next year he has to straighten himself out or he will have to blossom elsewhere.  As long as it is not with the Cubs.  

Speaking of Littlefield, Why the Cubs.  Of all the teams he could have given Ramirez to and it had to be the Cubs.   A day doesn't go by when another one of his WHOPPERS doesn't re-emerge.  

Regardless, duke has some value.  You just don't let pitchers go in arbitration, FA sure.  Not first year arb.

That's a good point BSpar.  Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if he took a paycut again.

I've heard Duke may go into the bullpen...he's had flashes of being really good, then letting an inning explode.

I can't see them wasting an option on him this late in the year...not with roster expansion a week or so away.  

@dcump2...Indy filled Bautista's roster spot with an outfielder from their DL.

As much as I would like to see Duke succeed, I think we're just shoveling s**t against the tide at this point (favorite saying of my grandfather, who worked for 57 years in the SW PA coal mines, starting as a breaker boy).

He has had @ 3.5 seasons to show whether he is a major league pitcher. His career WHIP of 1.56 is atrocious and opposing hitters have batted a collective .309 against him, which is basically the equivalent of Don Mattingly or Moises Alou stepping up to the plate to face him each time (at least in terms of average).

In this new era of accountability, was Bautista any worse than him? Granted, Duke is two years younger at 25 but over the last three seasons he has been pretty steady in his subpar performance.

I am not saying release or trade him at this juncture (my goodness, what could you get?). Rather, I would like to see him get one more chance in the form of being sent down to the minors to work out his issues a la Gorzelanny. If he doesn't succeed, then the PBC will know once and for all that it is time to cut bait.

>>Why would they bother sending Duke down and wasting an option for 10 days<<

Just a correction, there is no wasting an option. This is an option year for Duke. That means they can send him up and down 20x if they want to. Next year will not be an option year, whether they "use" this years option or not, since he has been on the 40 man roster for  3 seasons and will be starting his 4th next year.

What really bothers me about Duke is his career WHIP.  There are not many pitchers that can be successful in the big leagues with a high WHIP.  Sooner or later it's going to come back to bite you in the you know where.  That's especially the case bad move when you're not a high strikeout pitcher.    

PGH Fan,

I believe you are wrong.  If you spend the whole season in the majors, and dont go down to the minors that season, you do not use an option.  You only use options during seasons which you spend time in the minors.  So it is possible if a player has one option left at the beginning of the season, never gets sent down for 5 seasons, he would still have that option.

Morning all.

First things first.  Meestro has a kewl avatar.

Now for baseball.  Seems the Duke hatred around here is pretty strong.

I think the reports of Duke's death are premature.  He's shown what he's capable of and then never managed to recapture his magic.  His motion is pretty effortless and to my knowledge he's never had any arm trouble.

I can't figure it out, but he's another one of these guys who just nibbles constantly at the corners.  I sometimes wish these guys would just plunk a few batters once in a while.  Y'know, "Hit the mascot!"

I'm thinking Zack's days in the Burgh are not over and talk of sending him down are premature.  Optimist.  He just needs to freaking quit being ascared of hitters.

did-a-chum

did-a-chick

Goodtymes:

Not according to the Rob Neyer link DK has above:

"When you hear that a player is "out of options," that means he's been on the 40-man roster during three different seasons, beginning with his fourth as a pro, and to be sent down again he'll have to clear waivers (more on those below)."

I know it probably is not that straight forward since every year you hear some player has an option left even though everyone thought otherwise. Maybe yours is a case of that. Or maybe Neyer has it wrong.

Unless Nate McLouth is still sick, Steve Pearce is being sent a very loud message that he has no future with the Pirates. It was said that he was going to get a long look in RF. That has not happened. And with the roster shuffling we have seen, it does not appear that it ever will.

I'm sorry, but if Nyjer Morgan is a regular starting outfielder AT ANY TIME in the next 2 years, it is a signal that the Pirates are not building for the future.

I was interning at ESPN Radio 1250 when Duke made his debut with the Pirates.  I can't believe a few years later, he is on the oust.  He was a mega star after every outing.  I could barely get to his locker to ask him any questions....it was really crazy.

there is a young lad named duke

who once pitched like a nuke

he could not be hit

he gave them a fit

but now his ball has lost its juke

its too late to send him down no time to retool. he needs to go to the pen just for availability if needed but more to work the rest of the season with Jeff and then he must have a clear cut off season plan that he is expected to follow and he must produce and earn a spot.  

On the first we have more starters and we must shut the problem guys down from starting.  

A late thought on Jose.  Nice guy who maybe justs needs a wakeup trade call to push him to excell.  

Thunder,

You are underestimating Morgan.

Have to say I'm kind of glad to see Pearce was sent down to Indy. I'd rather watch Morgan play any day.  He just needs to get on base so he can run like lightning....

Haha.  Thanks Wabbit season.  The picture is a kodama, or forest spirit from the movie Princess Mononoke.  It's one of the classic animated films from the famous Japanese director Hayao Miyazaki.  I realize  that it has nothing to do with our favorite baseball team but I use this avatar for everything I do online.  It's said to bring good luck to travelers.  It's a shame that more Americans are not familiar with his body of work.  A lot of his movies are mistaken by the general public as mere kids' movies.  And yet, these movies can be more complex than most of the stuff that we see every weekend in our typical movie theaters.  That being said, Asian cinema does seem to be getting a better reputation by the day in the United States.

I'm sort of surprised to see Steve Pearce demoted.  It seems that he has really not gotten a fair shot at making this team.  That being said though, what he has shown us has not exactly and all that good.  Although his average is a little higher than that of the other new guys, he rarely seems to be struggling at major league pitch recognition.  That being said, of course, we all know that he will be back up in 10 days.

wow what a bad move...steve pearce needed major leauge at bats every day...how was he supposed to be comfortable when jason michaels is playing every other day...nyjer sucks and there is no reason at all to send pearce down instead of him...the rest of this season is gone, steve pearce needed to get comfortable

And Wabbit_Season, are you really just now waking up?  Good morning?  It's 3:30 PM!  LOL

Morgan can't steal first base...and he can't stop from oversliding the rest of them. Let alone the routes he takes to fly balls. You want him to play?? We may as well have traded for Juan Pierre in the Ramirez-Bay trade.

Is anyone saying that they think that Morgan should play ahead of McLouth...or Moss...or Cutch?? Is he going to be playing ahead of Tabata in a year or two?? Obviously, some of you are saying he should be playing ahead of Pearce. If that's the case...we can move Pearce back to first at Indy...and let the Pirates decide if they want Adam LaRoche to hit .200 for the first 3 months of next season.

he wasnt showing any power and his average wasn't great...but thats to be expected with someone seeing big league pitching for the first time...he had 3 game winning hits so at least he was showing clutch

Remember at the start of the season how many folks were *** that Pearce was sent down and Nady was kept?  

I'm surprised to see Pearce sent down.  It was a pleasant surprise though.  I had seen enough of him.  He had enough of a chance to show something - anything.  He didn't and now he's gone.  I think most Pirate fans highly overestimated his abilities.  I orginally thought he could be another Craig Wilson, but aparently even those expectations were too lofty.  

Does anyone know how sick McLouth is?  he is out of the lineup again. That is probably the reason Pearce went down and Morgan is still here.

Pearce down.  Michaels in right.  Great sign for the future.

But why stop there?

In the same spirit, here is my build for the future lineup:

C-Chavez

1B-Douggy

2b- Rivas

ss- Wilson

3b- Gomez

LF- Duffy

CF-Morgan

RF-Michaels

Now that 's a lineup we can build from

Snap, I'd rather see Craig Wilson at first than Pearce or LaRoche. Hahaha....

My thoughts:

Don't give up on Duke yet.  

(he still has enough to get better as a starter/ reliever or trade bait if new guys work out)

Pearce may need to play first to make the big club.  

(I agree with the above comment on this one. Pearce did show some issues the other day in tracking fly balls in the outfield.  His bat would be welcome if he lays off the way way outside stuff.  He has had the clutch hits here recently.  Still may be better than Adam since he only hits after the first couple of months.  He was moved rather quickly through the minors, A little seasoning in AAA would help that.)

Jack Flash would be good enough to keep until next July.

(so torn on what to do with him ,everyone has made some good points for all options we have with him.  I say keep him until July and bring a young guy up and platoon them in the meantime.  Of course that would change if we get an offer that is to good to pass up.)

Outfield should consist of:

McLouth, Moss, Cutch I would say platooning Cutch with Doug or another vet would be ideal.  Doug could platoon with Pearce at first if you want to keep Pearce in the majors.  And sign Doug.

Just my rambling thoughts...

Thrid base:

Jose just did not cut it here.  If I recall a year or so back we sent him down and brought himback and he played better.  Do we need this reminder to play all year for any of these guys?

We do have options at thrid in the coming year and years ahead.  Don't count Andy out to soon.  Yes he and the young guys will have some growing to do but that is the state we are in with most of these guys and even when the new guys come up.  

I gotta admit, when I read the game story the other day, and they asked Pearce what pitch he got that he lined for the game winning hit, and he said he didn't know, that raised a red flag for me.  It looks like this kid has significant work to do on his pitch recognition, which could explain the lack of power.  Hopefully he can get that ironed out, but that's a huge concern for a prospect his age.

philliejake - I need a little help here:

1) I  had no barometer of "how many folks" were how many folks, at the beginning of the season, as we didn't have this blog ... and I don't remember any upset people from the DK chat/Q&A, either, regarding Pearce going down. I do remember Pearce led the team in homers during spring training, but I don't remember any emotion over him not making it.

2) Pearce vs. Nady? I definitely didn't think there was a choice there, as Nady has pretty much rocked and rolled (except for injury times) in the big leagues for the last three years.

Hey, Paul Meyer, Yoo-Hoo?

Can you bring us in the clear on Nate? Still sick?

I suppose we could be showcasing Nyjmo. Tampa lost Crawford and his speed.   Any other contender looking for OF help?  

Hey! Michaels in RF.  Way to play for the future Bucs!  Maybe we should start Chavez, Gomez, and Meinky too for the rest of the year.  I'm sure watching them from the bench or AAA will really help our young guys prepare for next year.  Any chance we can get a really old CF'er to replace Nate too???

(Yea Sarcasm!!!!!!!!!!)

Baywatch:

In the other sting (Morning Links) you asked what may rhyme with Hadar depending on the pronunciation would "batter" do?

Man, everyone needs to relax about this "way to play for the future" stuff.  Pearce is 25 this year.  He had 353 at bats in Indy this year and was not good at all.  HIs line was .258/.310/.425.  He clearly has been overmatched in the majors.  Maybe his confidence is shot and ten days in Indy will help him.  He'll be back in a week or so.  This isn't a big deal other than signaling that Pearce probably isn't as good as we all wanted to believe a year ago.

McLouth, Andrew McC, Moss, Tabata, Grossman, Romak, etc., that's your future.  Worry about those guys, not whether Pearce or Michaels is getting at bats in right in September.

madturk2000 - Man, I couldn't think of anything ... go for it!

Anyone think Morgan could become like Omar in center field?  Speed light bat, bit of a slap hitter.  Omar did okay for us...

dtoddwin - (Slap) Thanks, I needed that! As far as I'm concerned, our next season starts in September ... auditions for Ohlendorf, (maybe) McCutchen ...

And enough at-bats for Pearce to qualify for comeback player of the year!

More on options..

I found this on Wikipedia. It is worded a bit differently than the Rob Neyer description::

"If a player is on the 40-man roster and not the active 25 man roster for any part of more than three seasons, he is out of options and may not be assigned to the minors without first clearing waivers. However, if a player has less than 5 years of professional experience, he may be optioned to the minors in a fourth season without being subject to waivers."

It is also mentioned that this is a simplified version of the rule also.

So that sounds like Goodtymes was correct.  My apologies.

dtoddwin

The point is that it is Pearce's turn to show what he can do, not Michaels'.  60 AB hardly qualifies as an opportunity.  He earned his shot, let's give it to him.

Yeah dtoddwin.  Great point.  Nothing builds your confidence more than being told you can't hack it.  Let's wait another 5 years for Tabata to be treated then same way.  That will be much better.

Never said Pearce was a savior, just that if you promise a guy th chance to play everyday (and I quote "our everyday Right Fielder") then make him sit on teh bench every 3 days to watch a career 4th OFer, you have failed to keep your promise.  

Fewer supporters of the tact taken by NH and JR than I, but this one I just don't get.  Seems like there should be questions being asked by our friendly beat reporter.

madturk2008 -

That could happen. Omar had basically one career year - 1979, the We Are Family Series year. He almost made 200 hits - 196 to be exact - and he was 26 when he did it.

And for Nyj, it could be next year, helping us break the 16-year string.

Only problem is, I think he'll need some religion or something to do it ... a real determined guy. But it's like the other poster said: I just don't know if he has what it takes to get to first base.

@ Cave....

Just out of curiosity, how did he earn his shot?  Seriously?  He's 25 and was not good in AAA.  And he'll be back in ten days.  They do also have to figure out if they want Michaels back next year.  Pearce may better off getting his confidence back for ten days in Indy before coming back up.  That, I'm guessing is management's thinking.

@Baywatch

Yes, Ohlendorf and Gorzo in Sept.  We won't see either McC. this year.

Baywatch  want to pick up on this? You started it my friend.

There once was a poet, JHadar

Whose Bucco prose defied radar.

A headline, it seems, defines Jose Lind

All he asks is for a Bucco win.

Well, his with all his wishing and hope.

Some may call him a dope.

But JHadar we hold dear

For the Bucco’s will be back next year!

I like Jack as much as a the next person (depending on who the next person is), but I think they ought to trade him in the off season.  His value will never be any higher than it is right now unless he hits .350 the first 2 months next year (in which case, how might they trade him and extract value at the same time?)  Still can't believe they didn't move him for Jurrjens last year.  Another lesson that if you're thinking of dusting your GM, do it sooner rather than later.

As for Pearce, who knows?  I think the fact that it's temporary means they  needed Morgan more at this point.  I agree that it makes no sense from a development standpoint, but by that logic Michaels and Doug should only start once a week.  I think next year's OF should be Nate, Moss, and McCutcheon unless Pearce once again tears it up in spring and perhaps LaRoche gets traded, though who know what his value would be?

Oops ... check that: I meant to say enough bats for Michaels to make Comeback Player of the Year.

It is what it is, the team that is.  I suport this mix and match of guys, it keeps the lineup a little balanced which is way better for individuals to learn.

I say Jack is valuable enough to this team that he stays unless we get major talent because that is what he is.  I support signing him to his final playing days.  He can start long enough til we get a star and then he can play third, short, and second, at least.reduces the number of infield subs needed.  He probably can play first also.  Too much upside to allow him to leave for anyone but an everyday player of 1 or 2 starting pitcher.

Nice, Madturk2008. You win a cookie!

@ by-th-sea

These guys are professional athletes.  Pearce is 25, he better feel a sense of urgency.  This isn't little league where everyone gets equal chances.  

Also, just take a deep breath and realize rosters expand in ten days.  If Nate is still sick and going to miss a few more games, Morgan is better equipped to play center for the next week than anyone else on the roster.  Pearce will be back Sept. 1.  But, tell me as I ask again, what has he done that you are so incredibly high on his future?  Just curious.

Does anyone know what is wrong with Nate Dog?  Out of the lineup for 5 days now with an "illness"?  

That's almost as scary as the someone earlier saying Nyjer Morgan could be our next Omar Moreno.  Aren't you tired of another 28 year old "prospect" from the comet littlefield regime?  Morgan is not going to be part of the long term future of the team - Pearce was supposed to be, but Pearce can't play centerfield - I hope that's all that's at work here.

So how many more games does Zach Duke have to give up 6 runs and 12 hits in 5 innings to convince you all he's not a major league pitcher?  Over under tonight on when Dukey gives up run number 6...I'm going bottom of the 3rd - any takers?

Baywatch:

Yep I agree he must get to first before anything can follow.

Moreno's lifetime hitting average was .252  

Updated above........McLouth being tested for mono.  May be out for awhile.  Now you know for sure why Pearce was sent down and Morgan is still up.

Thanks Baywatch I will take the cookie, any kind will do. Is it as virtual cookie?  Glad see to the Omar versus Morgan idea stated some comments Ha Ha   See above I did not place Morgan in my outfield of the future...  maybe we could keep him anyway to pinch run?  That will get him to first base?

Matt Alexander - DR

Does your handle mean you're a doctor or that you live on Matt Alexander Drive <g>?

Matt, see the update above: Their saying 3-5 more days because he's had lab work done ...

And the revolving outfield door just keeps turning ...

dtoddwin - yep I just saw the 5:31update.  Well I hope he gets over it soon.  Watching Morgan play CF on a regular basis is going to give me an "illness" too.

By the way - I think if anyone wants to compare Morgan to any former bucco greats my name sake would be a more apt one, Nyjer is a true designated runner.  Don't they allow those in little league?  Wouldn't it be great if he could pinch-run for Laroche everytime Laroche was on base.

On the other hand, did I hear Greg Brown say the other night Morgan is 1-3 stealing bases this year?  Yeah that's impressive.

madturk2008 - It is indeed virtual, so take any kind you like!

It's hard to argue with speed on this club ... As far as I'm concerned, for what they're paying him, keep him on as a pinch runner until he has his arbitration day ... Hey wasn't that something we celebrated in elementary school? Oh, no, that was Arbor Day ... Sheesh.

I'm off to work on that one!

Actually, I'm taking a new job tonight.

Driving a taxi in New York ... some guy left named Alvarez.

A couple of quick thoughts. Zach Duke should not be released, but sent down to work on things. He deserves time. Sending down Steve Pearce is a head scratcher. Why does this team love Chris Gomez? Weak. Okay, I'm done for now.

Happy friggin FRIDAY!!!!!

Hi kids I am back did you miss me? More importantly it is nice to see that continued piling on of OchoD aka Mr. Happy :) Lol.

@BBaG--looks to me that you need to start happy hour just a wee bit earlier next week...Wow. RE, your post on the previous thread.

P13--Can't resist (get those scissors out, here It comes) Somewhere over the Rainbow.....Luv ya man

@Bay--even though you want to dump Jack I still think I like you just a little...NOT! Lol

@007-I mean G-Man--Sorry to blow your secret identity...you could probably change rond's id with your secret decoder ring.

I beleive it was a jitney not a taxi.  either way becareful out there the pizza biz is rough.

By the way Moreno cut his teeth by pinch running.

Time for dinner, play a computer game and get ready for the Pirate game.   Will check in later for the latest and wonderful comments from all.  

@Bay--Hey on your way to the Bronx could you drop of an XL with xtra chz, pepperoni and shrooms? I am starved...

BillyKidd - You got it! And I've got a little time now ... they called to say Alvy's still working his jitney beat 'cause the sale on his new North Park home hit just a little bit of a snag.

Turns out nobody ever tried to pay the real estate firm with $1 million in cash before! And the banks are already closed.

OK, Gone for good this time ... will catch the playback, and YOU DUDES tomorrow morning.

Madturk2008 - Thanks for your well-wishes.

Maybe Duke will pull out a start like he had in Arizona ... and a BIGGER maybe ... Maybe we can score a few runs for him.

dtoddwin

He was our minor league player of the year last year and passed everyone in his path at his 2 positions.  I think that is earning it.  Don't you?  

BayWatch !

1) I  had no barometer of "how many folks" were how many folks, at the beginning of the season, as we didn't have this blog ... and I don't remember any upset people from the DK chat/Q&A, either, regarding Pearce going down. I do remember Pearce led the team in homers during spring training, but I don't remember any emotion over him not making it.

2) Pearce vs. Nady? I definitely didn't think there was a choice there, as Nady has pretty much rocked and rolled (except for injury times) in the big leagues for the last three years.

--------------------------------

HERE’S ONE

www.whygavs.com/.../demoting-steve-pearce-was-dangerous-and.html

Unlucky Steve Pearce. You did your best against Lilly, Zambrano, Haren, The Big Unit, Blanton, Volquez, while Michaels got his at bats against Marquis, Moyer and Fogg and got a couple of  hits and a homer so he's first choice and you get sent down. It seems homers in defeats mean more to management than game winning hits.

Shame like, I thought we were thinking of the future after trading bay and nady but this move just shows it was a case of salary dumping. Morgan will never be anything other than a fourth OF, just like Michaels.

I agree that it would be wasting an option if Duke gets sent down now, then called back up in 10 days. Let him miss a start the next time around and continue working on the side with Andrews. Next spring, if he doesn't make the big club, option him to Indy, where maybe he can build some trade value going against AAA batters.

Pearce had an exceptional year last year and I think that raised expectations. He hasn't been able to follow up last years numbers even at the AAA level, so what's to suggest that playing in Pittsburgh is going to help?

I think sending him down was the right move and that's where he should start next year until he shows that he has improved his pitch recognition and plate dicipline. His progress can be evaluated just as well at Indy as it can be in Pittsburgh, and he'll be under less pressure. My personal opinion is that he'll end up being closer to a Jason Michaels type player than a Jason Bay type player.

One thing I have not seen in recent blog threads about the pitching (This is not an excuse for how bad they have been) is how many different pitching coaches have these guys had going back to thier minor league days that have screwed with their minds and their mechanics. You have one coach say arm slot here, one say no stand here on the rubber one say...well you get my point? Look at the successful teams almost always the same Pitching coach A's (until Rick went to the Mets) no the Met's, Yanks of old and the Braves of Old. Good consistent pitching I think starts with a good consistent coach...Just throwing that out there.

dtoddwin - Please re-read my previous post.  I never said Pearce was a savior, but that he has not had a shot to play everyday AND that playing time is instead gong to Michaels.  Michaels is already a proven quantity - He's a solid 4th OFer.  

The question is Pearce's future - and you can't determine that by benching him in the majors or playing him at AAA.  At 25 years old, he needs to be starting a career in MLB - otherwise, he's a career AAA.

@BILLYKID - Good Point.  Just look at what happens to QB's when a new offensive coordinator is brought in every other year.

@ Cave

Because our system was so loaded with talent at first and OF last year.  No, when you're 24 and starting at A ball you better crush it if you want to have any future.  Yes, he had a very good year last year and got promoted very quickly.  My question to you is why is his performance last year more important than this year?  And this year he certainly has not been impressive.  Do you disagree?

@by the sea-- I never said Pearce was a savior, but that he has not had a shot to play everyday AND that playing time is instead gong to Michaels.  Michaels is already a proven quantity - He's a solid 4th OFer.  

Just an observation as playoffs are right around the corner and we have spent most of the day talking about trading Jack.  Michaels is due for arbitration or free agency either one he is gone. Showcase Michaels in the hopes of acquiring a talented player from some team that might be a little desparate to make a run or protect themselves during the playoffs. Pearce will be back starting probably in a week anyway at the call-ups.

@by the sea

Are you saying that performance at AAA has no bearing on future success?  Seriously?  A guy who isn't successful at AAA who is 25 should just get a free everyday job in the majors to determine his future?  That's a bit silly.

And I never accused you of calling him a savior.  I asked you what you why you were so high on his future?  What has he done that to warrant it other than have 120 good at bats at AAA last year.  Nothing else stands out.

@60--Thanks.

dtoddwin - We're going in circles.  Are you saying that 60 ABs has proven that Pearce can't cut it?  

Just another observation--Could it be because the minors have been so bare over the past years that talented players have been pushed up the minor league ladder faster than necessary after minimal success at the lower level? And now you have guys either here or Indy that did not get the "seasoning" at the lower level?

ALMOST FORGOT HEY DK

Please make sure that Dirty Doug gets our GET WELL WISHES to Jodi from the thread.

He probably isn't reading this, to close to game time..

Anyway,

Thanks

Faithful PBC Bloggers

dtoddwin

A agee totally that this year has not been impressive.  If you look at 2006-08 he has been the most productive player in our system and that is what earned him his promotion along with the fact that our system produced no one better.   If someone had outplayed him,  then I would have had no problem with him staying at Indy until Sept.  

The fact is they brought him up to replace Nadyand too many of his AB's went to Michaels who probably has a little over a month left in a Bucs uniform.  

If they weren't going to play him all the time, they should have brought up Adam Boeve.  (rhymes with movie)

BillyKidd

Except for a few exceptions, I think our best are less than mediocre in most other systems.

@Cave--Right on! I agree and I think a lot of that has to do with the revolving doors of management at that level. Too many training and coaching methodologies with each new management staff. 1 thing JR has preached: What we teach here will have already been seen at the lowest levels throughout the organization. Consistent coaches teaching good consistent baseball fundamentals

@Cave--If they weren't going to play him all the time, they should have brought up Adam Boeve.  (rhymes with movie)

Maybe they tried everything with Pearce. It seemed to me everytime he got to the plate he had that deer in the headlights look. I never saw him in the box for Indy so this is a guess. He just never lokoed like he was comfortable against MLB pitchers...goes to my previous point , through the system too fast.

I'm not so sure Romak is the answer.He's having trouble at learning first.Not hitting much above tho Mendoza line.In Pearce's case you gotta remember he was in single A ball at the beginning of last year.Probably getting a good dose of off speed and breaking balls.In Duke's case he needs to work on his sinker and change up and stop nibbling and trust the defense.I can't see him in relief because he starts out too slow early.

Had to be elsewhere most of today, but to answer the question:  Hadar rhymes with Gator, wader, and Darth Whatshisname.  

Unless you have an accent, of course.  My mom was from Pittsburgh and pronounced owl, I'll, oil, all, awl and aisle exactly alike.  

Bautista was a waiver trade deal, also had some run ins with Russell and the FO according to report on MLB.com.

mlb.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

@JHadar--yeah right. Just take your boat and paddle up the crick...LoL welcome back aboard this evening.

It may be that the best thing for Steve Pearce is to go to Indy, play regularly, have success against AAA pitchers and come back in 10 days ready to play. Confidence is a fragile thing and if this gets him his back it is a great move.

wow PBC is serious about this rebuilding, they even traded Trenni Kusnierek to Milwaukee!

Just a comment on tv game coverage. I know it's tv and not radio, but it seems like Lanny almost never calls any play by anymore. In the 3rd inning he didn't call a single one of the plays or pitches for the inning.

Wow! That catch from LaRoche was really impressive, That better be on the Sportscaster top ten tonight. How did he do that with all of those people in the way?

Moss just hit a home run we are down by one....

Between deliveries, checking the score. I guess Dookie's not looking too bad, 4Ks, 6 hits, but up to 97 pitches ... We're hangin'

I'm turnin' my Dominos cap inside-out for a rally ... Let's Go Bucs!

Duke reversed his usual "give up runs early" routine tonight.  I'm certain he has no future as a starter. He might possibly work out as a middle reliever. You'd think not, given that history of having horrible first innings, but it's worth seeing how he pitches when he knows he's only going to be in there for 2 or 3 innings.

Top 8 in Altoona...

Tabata 3-4, 1 2B, 1R, 1RBI

===================

In Indy...

The McCutchen brothers...

Andrew: 2-5, 1 2B, 1R, got the average up to .280

Dan: 7 innings, 4H, 2ER, 0BB, 7K

Gotta love it.

Yeah didn't someone say something about being down by 6 in the first few innings today?  

Hey Bay I am still waiting for my ZA...While you waste time checking on the game...

Not a bad outing by Duke. 1 so so inning. Other than that not to bad. Get him some Offense and we are ok.

@Meestro: I don't know. But I think he should give Moises Alou tips for dealing with fans in the way of a foul ball.

@Dejan: What's wrong with Doumit? Another injury?

Looks like the party is over Brew crew just score a few runs off of Bautista.  Down now by three, no outs and a guy on second.  Anyone want to beleive in a comeback now?

Maybe that inside Domino cap jinxed us.  Should have used your Hap Cap!!!!!!

what the hell was Freddy doing???

Only stayed a few minutes -- got into the early lead and then the wife needed attention, and well there are just some things you'd rather do ;-}  Came back and find we're down 4-3, but who knows.  On the one hand we've come back a lot, on the other hand every little thing seems to go wrong when we play Milwaukee (not that I would ever give in to superstition.)

BKidd -- Folks out here on the prairie are pretty evenly split between crick and creak.  Everybody is pretty sure everybody else is wrong.  My dad was from So. Indiana, just south of Terre Haute (Tare Hote)  Accents were always part of life at home -- once she sent him to the store for soup and he came back with soap.  After two days in Pittsburgh I can drop into rhyming mile and mall.  All I have to do is get anywhere south of Des Moines to start twanging like an old banjo.

Oops, wrote Dejan instead of Paul. I went to the game July 6th in Milwaukee. Was gonna go tommorrow too, but they sold out more than three weeks in advance. This game looks like they took everything that happened on July 6th and are doing it all over again. Pirates take an early lead and then Duke, Bautista and Burnett let the Brewers walk all over them. At least I didn't waste a bunch of money going there tonight or tomorrow...

Not that its not expected at this point, but this team doesn't even resemble major leaguers tonight.  Not that I'll ever give up on them, but you just wonder what kind of cloud is hanging over this franchise that seemingly will never go away.

This has to be one of the most embarrassing losses of the year. lousy defense, poor relief pitching, awful baserunning.

Hey Officer,

If The Duke is in middle relief he isn't in the first inning.

*rimshot*

Wow, type a little something and it goes from not so bad to totally hopeless.  I once spent four hours watching a movie and the conclusion was "Oh, well ... tomorrow's another day."

I think I'll pour myself a glass of wine, snuggle up with my sweetie, call the dogs, throw in an old Avengers DVD and call it a night.  

I approve of the rebuilding, but this is the painful phase.

Say it ain't so Joe:

Joe Jackson:  It's So Kid

Mark Magwire:  I refuse to answer the question on the grounds I may incriminate myself.

Barry Bonds:  I thought I was a herbal cream.

Roger Clemens:  My wife did it.

Pete Rose:  It's no big deal.

How many more years of losing do the Succos have in them?  

2 years

5 years

7 years

50 years

Who won the pierogi race last Saturday night?  The pierogi races are the only competitive events that still take place at PNC Park.  I really wish we had a MLB team to be proud of.  Oh well, football season is here and hockey is not too far behind.

Man they are really stinking this game up.I am watching thru the 8th.Bone head plays by all infielders except Jack.Lil LaRoche hurls a throw to 1st into the stands.Not to be outdone big brother takes his time on a pick off and throws it into left.Then Sanchez in slow mo lets a runner score from 3rd without a throw from 1st.One of the worst games I've seen all year.Time for some infield practice.Shades of the 60s Mets!

Ugly stuff tonight. I watched the first three innings, then a friend came by, I left MLB.tv on, but only the sound (FSN Wisconsin). Man, after that, I just heard from the other room the very happy announcer. I don't even want to watch the highlights, even after half a dozen beer cans. See you all tomorrow...

if I recall, last Saturday it was Cheese Chster after a run-off was held after the game before Skyblast. Hannah filed a protest causing the run-off.

@JHadar--I think I'll pour myself a glass of wine, snuggle up with my sweetie, call the dogs, throw in an old Avengers DVD and call it a night.  

Now MY VERSION

I think I will pour myself a Jack Daniels, snuggle up with the dogs, put the wife out, and throw the Hogans Heroes Collection in and call it a night...Maybe that is why I am divorced.  What a pitiful performance,

10-4 OUCH!   UGLY UGLY Game.  To bad for Duke he was not all that bad.  Enough fo me I am outta here.

Man Lil LaRoche is challenging bog bro in HDP.They are truly good at something.He makes his brother look like Ted Williams in BA.

You know it is God Awful when we have digressed to the Pierogi Family to continue discussions. Maybe if we click our heels collectively 3 times we will wake up in Kansas (Where there is no baseball team to be ashamed of). Another very painful loss.

madturk -

>>Looks like the party is over Brew crew just score a few runs off of Bautista<<

It appears the Bucs traded the wrong Bautista, at least for tonight.

Everybody -

I did not see the game. What do we make of Duke tonight? He gave up 4ER in 6 innings, roughly equal to his ERA. Since he made it through 6 innings, I suppose that's remotely close to a silver lining.

Any bets on whether Zach is optioned later tonight? If not, who else goes to make room for Gorzo?

Nitey Nite Mad.

I am guessing it is going to be a very quiet and lonely night here on the Blog.

@G-Man--Duke pitched rather well all things considered. 2 of the 4 were UNErnd. Came off of throwing errors by the LaRoche brothers

I live 1 hour outside of Charlotte and just got home from watching the Indians play. Both McCutchens look great. Andrew had a nice double and drew a lot of attention on the basepaths.  He also ran down a ball that was hit fairly well.

Dan pitched the first 7 innings strong. Only allowing 2 hits.  A seeing eye single to Josh Fields and a crappy infield single to Eldred. He looked out but they called him safe. In the eigth he got hit hard for a double and an HR to the first 2 batters and then was replaced with rubber arm Osario. Then J Chavez came in and shot the lights out in the 9th with 7 pitches.  Dan looked good against a lineup with Joe Crede, josh Fields, Eldred, and Jerry Owens. He made them look bad at times. He did hit Fields but at least he is throwing inside.

I was also impressed with the way Paulino looked. He hustled the few times he had to and also throw out Fields on a stolen base attempt. Louis Cruz played SS and Bixler played 2nd. Neither one had anything hit hard at them so I didn't get to see how they would play. Duffy had a double. Over all I was impressed with the way they all looked including Andrew wearing his uniform Dirty Doug style with the top 2 buttons undone.  

It seems from the look at things I got to see a better game than what the Bucs played tonight.

He really only threw 2 really bad pitches. But lost some control in the 4th I think a walk maybe 2 ( I was in the middle of a phone call and lost some concentration.

@lethal--At least someone enjoyed themselves tonight. Thank you for the update.

ALLand ANYONE--Why did Ryan Doumit come out of the game???

This is a joy to watch, and even better to hear Greg Brown and Lanny Frattare cry on the air. It is amazing that after all these years Pittsburgh fans do not start enjoying watching the PBC (Pittsburgh Baseball Circus). They will match a record this year that may never ever be reached or broken again.

So as the Succos chase 100 losses (its still doable, do not put anything past these guys) lets all sit back relax and enjoy as the Pirates further embarass themselves.

BillyKidd -

Thanks for the synopsis on Duke. The Pirates website box score is calling all 4 Duke runs earned. Not sure if that's a mistake or not, based on what you said. I did see where Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee made errors. It's just so painful to watch these guys after seeing decent - albeit not winning - baseball for the first 4 months. Based on what I read here and the quick scan of the box score, I feel like we're watching State College all of a sudden.

By the way, what's the MLB record for batters in one lineup hitting below the Mendoza line? Tonight it was Babyface LaRoche and Morgan, plus three other guys hitting less than 250, and that's not counting the pitcher. It's a small miracle we scored 4 runs tonight.

According to Lanny in the 8th or 9th, Ryan left under the weather.

Notable numbers

Pirates 21 GB

Elimination #14

11 losses until tying the record for futlity in North American Sports History

693 Runs allowed

Most in the entire National League and 30 more than the next worse Colorado Rockies

Nyjer Morgan .143

Brian Bixler .173

Andy LaRoche .183

Brandon Moss .213

Steve Pearce .224

Adam LaRoche 93 K's

Nyjer Morgan 40% Stolen Base success ratio

What is more disheartening, that the Pirates have a good majority of their lineup hovering around the Mendoza line or that unlike most years, those batting below .225 are not journeyman one-year stop gaps, but the "future" of the team.

Here is to another decade and a half of losing from the PBC (Pittsburgh Baseball Circus).

Hey look everyone it is RonD's twin.

>>According to Lanny in the 8th or 9th, Ryan left under the weather<<

Maybe watching the game was making him sick.

@G-Man I could be wrong I had one eye and ear on the tube and the other on this report I am working on. Sorry if I have mis-informed you but I really thought both of those throwing errors assisted in the runs scoring.

>>Hey look everyone it is RonD's twin.<<

I told you guys and gals he was not the only one feeling that way.

Pirates "ace" Paul Maholm "If young got em" is 8-7

Zach Duke "Of Hurl" and Ian Snell "of defeat" have both reached double digits in losses but neither can get past five wins

As bad as the $10 million dollar man Matt Morriss was, his ERA is still better than "prospects" Yoslan Herrera and John VB.

Ian Snell 74 BB

Tom Gorzelanny "day but today" his ERA is a cool 6.57, this should be fun to watch

I am calling for 96 losses, but 100 is still reachable

Raise the Jolly Rancher

Caught the Boston @ Toronto game tonight. Throwback unis for the Jays.  Bautista looks horrible in powder blue.

BillyKidd .... unfortunately for Duke's ERA all 4 runs were earned even with the 2 errors.

I thought Duke was okay. He pitched well enough to win if we still had the B.T. (before trades) lineup. I'm definitely not a fan of Michaels or Andy LaRoche. Plus, really bad relief pitching and defense make me want to scream.

I love it that the current excuse for our lack of offense is facing good opposing pitching. I wonder how long that excuse is good ... til the end of the season or can it still be used in 2009?

And for any Nady fans, he has set a new career high in home runs by hitting his 21st of the season tonight. He's got 21 RBIs in 25 games. Way to go X!

>>the report I am working on<< Thanks for explaining your distraction. I thought maybe that was about the time you poured the Jack Daniels and curled up with the dogs.  :D

@G-Man--Crap RE; Doumit under the weather.

@48--Thank you very much for the clarification and apologies to you 007...lol.

Hey 48 why down on Michaels? He may not be a starter, but off the bench he is a hitting machine. Far far better than Gomez, Rivas

greetings from cinci

good to see mini mede is back at indy--lets drop him back to altoona next yr--cant hit the mlb pitching folks--face it

oh--x man another home run (has 8 hrs now) --2 rbis--hitting 318--but then again he is not a prospect--

any change in how that 'prospect thing' is working since i left?

the stiffs we have been playing after the trades ...think 'prospects that will never be any good but will cost a lot less' ---really..admit it...its a joke

just saw the hilites on espn --tht andy laroche--great on those balls down the line isnt he--fake dive and all..really..it makes me want to puke

in a side note-- staying at the hyatt downtown cinci-- downtown here-- and i dont like sayng this --puts dtown burg to shame in terms of family night life (im here with my 9 yr old for the game tom nite--fball) --open concert--screen on the building wall the size of PNC scoreboard showing the olympics live and ice cream shops. street vendors --and all after 8 pm-- and no busess or safety cones ....unlike the ghost own we have after 6 each nite downtown..maybe a little

@G-Man-- uh oh yeah that to    ;0

fan in NH -

Actually, those Toronto uniforms are one two regular alternate uniforms the Jays are wearing this year, as opposed to the occasional throwback nights we see from time to time. The odd think abou the light blue ones are they don't wear names on the back, a la Boston home and Yankess. I think the Blue Jays are trying to eclipse the Penguins for most different uniform variations in the shortest possible time. Jays switched to new styles about 4 years ago, then changed only their road jerseys again last year. Also, they had both black and gray caps when they made the uniform switch, dropped the gray cap the second year and added an alternate cap last year.

Just think - this time last week we were all hanging out here reading about Rocco's scoop on Alvarez signing.

Pirate catcher Ryan Doumit left the game in the seventh inning with flu-like symptoms.

yea..he wanted to vomit after realizing what PBC is surrounding him with for the next 3 yrs until they trade him....mcclouth got that 'feeling' a few days ago

frickin' sad

@ron d--Duke pitched decently. Although 4 runs earned 2 of those were assisted by throwing errors by the LaRoche boys Andy into stands and Adam into the outfield. I agree with you on Pearce, When he was in the box it was like i said earlier a Deer in the Headlights. Not sure who you are refeering to <oh--x man another home run (has 8 hrs now) --2 rbis--hitting 318--but then again he is not a prospect-->

I am still going to give these kids the time not just half a season and dump them. Let them get thw wetness behind thier ears dry and lets see what happens next year-Hey i may be on your band wagon then but for me it is way to early to give up on them...I am certain that on age equivalent  things regarding your 9 y.o...you do not give up on him or his friends. Just give em a chance. Pretty much from day 1 you have nailed them to the wall. Not really fair. I feel your 16 year pain. I really do. I have asked before and i am asking again as the GM what would have you done or what would you do?

As for Cincy had you gone there 2001/02 it was as bad if not worse MUCH WORSE than Pitt. They started revialtization efforts about in 2003 with the completion of the Great American Ballpark...I agree with you on the family friendly atmosphere. HEY YOU AND YOUR SON HAVE A GREAT TIME. I HOPE YOU TWO HAVE A SUPER TIME IN CINCY.  

@G-Man Oh Hurrah!! lol

@G-Man Oh Hurrah!! lol

@G-Man--Where do you find that information??? That is funny and amazing at the same time. Please do not say in your head, because if you do, we can not be friends anymore. Lol

BK

good question about being GM ..i would do whatever i could to get the owner to keep the vets that are good --extend them--and sprinkle in propsects and draft picks --et a few quality Free agents each yr....think what a nfl team does each yr

problem is tht it takes money--and one of the things that the union in baseball never did is that it didnt force the installation of a mandatory minimum team salary when it negotiated the last cba .... as is the case in nfl/nhl and nba--make a team spend a certain floor--we dont have that..so any luxury tax proceeds usually go into the nut jobs pockets--without the min salary floor i admit the GM has his hands tied

the comment about nady and prospect was sarcasm

thx for the good cheer on my son and i in cinci--he just went to bed here in the hotel room..since his usual bed time is 9 pm i'm glad his mother is not here to yell......wnated to say up and watch hilites..he's a mets fan too--tried to tell him he cant do both but why let me ruin his fun

ron-d--thanks for sharing your perspective. I definetly agree with you on the salary stuff. I ask that you give this mgmt team the winter to look over the free agent pool and let's see what they do. FC and NH didn't have that luxury last year. I could see them doing exactly as you have planned bring in a few solid FA's to bolster the kids and maybe bring up a few of the truly hot kids. I stated this earlier..I will cut and paste from earlier blogs

Just another observation--Could it be because the minors have been so bare over the past years that talented players have been pushed up the minor league ladder faster than necessary after minimal success at the lower level? And now you have guys either here or Indy that did not get the "seasoning" at the lower level?

One thing I have not seen in recent blog threads about the pitching (This is not an excuse for how bad they have been) is how many different pitching coaches have these guys had going back to thier minor league days that have screwed with their minds and their mechanics. You have one coach say arm slot here, one say no stand here on the rubber one say...well you get my point? Look at the successful teams almost always the same Pitching coach A's (until Rick went to the Mets) no the Met's, Yanks of old and the Braves of Old. Good consistent pitching I think starts with a good consistent coach...Just throwing that out there.

as for your son staying up..LET HIM you do not get alot of these times where both of you can act like kids or he can act like a grown up...To be honest i am very jealous of you right now. I am divorced and my son is 9 as well but they live in Syracuse. We do not see each other much. My job has me on the road and he is a busy 9 y.o. that also spends time with aunts and uncles in other cities. I would give everything to be able to do what you and your son are doing. My dad did them with me (see bio) and that is all I ever dreamed about doing with my child. Honestly God Bless you and your little one. I never forgot the times with my dad and I am now 45. In fact I cherish them more.

BK

agree with you on the pitching coach thing--andrews isnot the answer--i made a point on that in another blog day....russell needs to get an experienced guy who has a good track record--andrews has been all over the place in his pitching coach career--get a experienced and good coah..pay him some of that extra dough we are saving

minor league-rushing guys can hurt thenm--but then again--if they are good it wont matter--david wright and the uptons come to mind...note that i just relocated back to the burg lst yr after being in the va beach area for a bunch of yrs--and wright, uptons, simmerman (nats) reynolds (arizona) cuddyer (minny) all played high school and summer ball there --unbelievable area for pro talent

little guys is now asleep while i type--thx for the nice comments on  him ..i started late (50) now --trying to get as much quality time in with him now before im too old and just yell at the tv all day

give your kid a call in  the a.m.

@Ron d--minor league-rushing guys can hurt thenm--but then again--if they are good it wont matter--

Problem is the old PBC didn't couldn't or wouldn't evaluate properly. How many pitchers have they ruined? They blew the eval of Aramis Ramirez. I think they rushed Eldred, Hermanson, One more Gary Matthews Jr.and God knows who else, the list is endless of the talented players (by MLB standards not just PBC) that are nowhere to be found for various "blunders by the OLD PBC Management.  PBC either gave up too soon, shattered a players confidence by running him up to face MLB pitching way to soon etc...At a later date and please remind me I have a very true story that I would like to share about the OLD MGMT. A PTBNL shared with my cousin (See Bio) the "horrors" of playing for the old mgmt.

Well it is after 2 and no one else but me out here so See you all in the morn.